Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[cooloutac]

I love that they use google.  Keeps miscreants out.   I call this a forum,  use 
it like a forum,  and it has the word forum in the google link.

The only mail I get in my email,  are those threads I have started or 
subscribed to.I think I check my google mail quarterly lol.

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Achim Patzner]

On 20190225 at 16:00 -0600 John Goold wrote:
> Making the leap to "catering to the lowest common denominator" is simply
> insulting.

No. it's necessary. And often enough people even miss the necessary
steps in that setting (like registering their PGP keys... even though
it is quite simple).

And you're missing the obvious points like minimal use of available
bandwidth or asynchronous delivery.

And as long as using Qubes is more complicated than getting Arch
running there are more important tasks than catering to people who are
think mailing lists are lacking sophistication or comfort.


Achim


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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[taii...@gmx.com]

If you are not smart enough to use a mailinglist you are not smart
enough to use linux.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is an impossible task that
shouldn't be tried as it always comes at the expense of everyone else.

ML's are the most secure and best method of communication even better if
they aren't hosted by the evil spyware google.

I provide many of the answers here and I refuse to use reddit or
anything else that requires javascript or what not - reddit also engages
in censorship and the owners stealth-edit the posts of others and
endorse politically motivated moderation tactics. Yet another "used to
be cool" type of place now played out and all the original users have
migrated to other places like voat where speech is still free.

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[marmot-te]

Thank you all for your answers.

Thank you for https://qubes-os.info/
I'm discovering it.

There is now just one thing who is boring me : i don't like google and
don't want to feed the monster.
There are others free services for mailing lists, like the very nice Riseup.

Whatever, good night and good luck.

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pEpkey.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys

Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[19hundreds]

Feb 2, 2019, 1:23 PM by no...@noses.com:

>  Or stop believing in the false protection
> of remaining anonymous.
>
Do you have reasons to believe that qubes + whonix + vpn (carefully used) is 
not enough to grant network anonymity? I'm not considering seizing or physical 
access to hardware. 

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Stuart Perkins]

On Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:12:53 +0100
Achim Patzner  wrote:

>Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 11:10 -0600 schrieb Stuart Perkins:
>> Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having 
>> an archive of all e-mails since joining the list.  
>
>I don't because I immediately erase everything not interesting to me.
>But that's one of the more important aspects of Mail: The simple format
>that makes storage and searching extremely easy.
>
>> I have an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000  
>
>Only? I'm obviously still erasing too few. But this is the most
>important part: I still retain ownership of my data not some strange
>"cloud" thing.
>
>
>Achim
>

Yep.  There is no "cloud"...it is just someone else's computer.  Control over 
"my" data is my main reason for such.

My current client has a court order to NEVER delete another e-mail, also from 
about 30 years ago.  My 700,000 is a drop in a bucket compared to what they 
have to retain.  I think theirs are in a database of sorts though, which puts 
them at risk as technology drifts.  Plain text files are plain text files and 
will continue to be plain text files until ...

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Achim Patzner]

Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 20:16 +0100 schrieb 19hundreds:
> The problem for me
> is that I don't have an anonymous-enough IMAP or POP enabled account
> so I'm stuck with Tutanota webinterface. If you know the interface
> you can imagine the pain in following a thread. There is no tree-
> groupping for a start.

If you are in such dire a position that you have to remain anonymous
you should read the group using TAILS on the TOR side of Google. Even
that's not reliable, though. Or stop believing in the false protection
of remaining anonymous.


Achim


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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Achim Patzner]

Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 11:10 -0600 schrieb Stuart Perkins:
> Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having an 
> archive of all e-mails since joining the list.

I don't because I immediately erase everything not interesting to me.
But that's one of the more important aspects of Mail: The simple format
that makes storage and searching extremely easy.

> I have an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000

Only? I'm obviously still erasing too few. But this is the most
important part: I still retain ownership of my data not some strange
"cloud" thing.


Achim

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[unman]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:33:33PM -0300, Franz wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:11 PM Stuart Perkins 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:01:58 +0100 (CET)
> > 19hundreds <19hundr...@tutanota.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current
> > mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's gonna be
> > hard to se it replaced with something else.
> > >
> > >Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add
> > https://reddit.com/r/qubes  (it's SO
> > comfortable!)
> > >
> >
> > Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having
> > an archive of all e-mails since joining the list.  I can search them for
> > something BEFORE asking a new question.  I have done so with this group a
> > few times already and not had to bother asking something which was already
> > asked and answered.
> >
> > I use claws-mail to retrieve all of my e-mails (about 27 different e-mail
> > accounts...one paid for [legal expectation of privacy] and several
> > gmail/hotmail/yahoo) and since claws-mail is configured to store e-mails as
> > discrete files, I can search them with grep and other *nix utilities.  I
> > have an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000 discrete
> > e-mails from the many groups I used to belong to, as well as private
> > stuff.  It is far easier to just store them than to sort through them for
> > deletion...but they are organized by folders/directories to make it easy to
> > ignore the ones not pertinent for the time.
> >
> >
> Unbelievable!! I always thought that the only practical way to retrieve old
> emails was using a google account, but you seem to suggest that you are
> able to do the same  with claws-mail. How much space does 700K emails take?
> Because you seem to keep them on your computer, correct? And does the
> search of old emails work as convenient as google?
> 

mutt+notmuch

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Franz]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:11 PM Stuart Perkins 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:01:58 +0100 (CET)
> 19hundreds <19hundr...@tutanota.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current
> mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's gonna be
> hard to se it replaced with something else.
> >
> >Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add
> https://reddit.com/r/qubes  (it's SO
> comfortable!)
> >
>
> Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having
> an archive of all e-mails since joining the list.  I can search them for
> something BEFORE asking a new question.  I have done so with this group a
> few times already and not had to bother asking something which was already
> asked and answered.
>
> I use claws-mail to retrieve all of my e-mails (about 27 different e-mail
> accounts...one paid for [legal expectation of privacy] and several
> gmail/hotmail/yahoo) and since claws-mail is configured to store e-mails as
> discrete files, I can search them with grep and other *nix utilities.  I
> have an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000 discrete
> e-mails from the many groups I used to belong to, as well as private
> stuff.  It is far easier to just store them than to sort through them for
> deletion...but they are organized by folders/directories to make it easy to
> ignore the ones not pertinent for the time.
>
>
Unbelievable!! I always thought that the only practical way to retrieve old
emails was using a google account, but you seem to suggest that you are
able to do the same  with claws-mail. How much space does 700K emails take?
Because you seem to keep them on your computer, correct? And does the
search of old emails work as convenient as google?

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[19hundreds]

Jan 31, 2019, 5:15 PM by no...@noses.com:

> Before we begin:
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>
> Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 18:01 +0100 schrieb 19hundreds:
>
>>
>> I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current
>> mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's
>> gonna be hard to see it replaced with something else.
>>
>
> The problem is rather getting the people who are providing the answers
> to use something else. It's a case of the prohpet having to walk to the
> mountain... (People like to use mailing lists because dealing with them
> fits their normal working environment and information archival tools.)
>
> Besides: Mail teaches you patience. There is nothing worse than the
> entitled Interweb Power User who is not getting an answer within 60
> seconds.
>
>> Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add 
>> https://reddit.com/r/qubes >>  (it's SO 
>> comfortable!)
>>
>
> Reddit is definitely less comfortable if you use it in a desktop
> environment/web browser than any well configured mail client. It is
> usable without network connection. And let's not get into the
> indignities of searching something in that trash heap.
>

I agree all the way with you and Stuart Perkin. The problem for me is that I 
don't have an anonymous-enough IMAP or POP enabled account so I'm stuck with 
Tutanota webinterface. If you know the interface you can imagine the pain in 
following a thread. There is no tree-groupping for a start.

I know that Protonmail recently adopted some kind of IMAP solution but I didn't 
have the time to look into it. I don't know anyone who can send me a riseup 
invitation code ... it's kind of a blocking situation for me.

I suppose (but I'm not sure) that the OP is referring to these kind of 
situation. 

I can mention also another situation: I've just read the post about 
debian-9-minimal template. I need to say that the 
`qubes-core-agent-passwordless-root` is missing (I'm not sure if it's 
intentional) but I don't have the email downloaded in my email client so I 
can't reply there.

So, yes, the ML is a good thing. Perfect? not for all.

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Achim Patzner]

Before we begin:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 18:01 +0100 schrieb 19hundreds:
> 
> I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current
> mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's
> gonna be hard to see it replaced with something else.

The problem is rather getting the people who are providing the answers
to use something else. It's a case of the prohpet having to walk to the
mountain... (People like to use mailing lists because dealing with them
fits their normal working environment and information archival tools.)

Besides: Mail teaches you patience. There is nothing worse than the
entitled Interweb Power User who is not getting an answer within 60
seconds.

> Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add 
> https://reddit.com/r/qubes (it's SO comfortable!)

Reddit is definitely less comfortable if you use it in a desktop
environment/web browser than any well configured mail client. It is
usable without network connection. And let's not get into the
indignities of searching something in that trash heap.


Achim

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Stuart Perkins]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:01:58 +0100 (CET)
19hundreds <19hundr...@tutanota.com> wrote:

>
>I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current mailing 
>list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's gonna be hard to se 
>it replaced with something else.
>
>Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add 
>https://reddit.com/r/qubes  (it's SO comfortable!)
>

Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having an 
archive of all e-mails since joining the list.  I can search them for something 
BEFORE asking a new question.  I have done so with this group a few times 
already and not had to bother asking something which was already asked and 
answered.

I use claws-mail to retrieve all of my e-mails (about 27 different e-mail 
accounts...one paid for [legal expectation of privacy] and several 
gmail/hotmail/yahoo) and since claws-mail is configured to store e-mails as 
discrete files, I can search them with grep and other *nix utilities.  I have 
an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000 discrete e-mails from 
the many groups I used to belong to, as well as private stuff.  It is far 
easier to just store them than to sort through them for deletion...but they are 
organized by folders/directories to make it easy to ignore the ones not 
pertinent for the time.

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[19hundreds]

I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current mailing 
list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's gonna be hard to se it 
replaced with something else.

Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add 
https://reddit.com/r/qubes  (it's SO comfortable!)

-- 
1900
https://www.reddit.com/user/19hundreds 



Jan 30, 2019, 11:32 PM by marmot...@riseup.net:

> hi here,
>
> I understand that list mail is pretty useful,
>
> but ... come on, this is not really common user-friendly
> example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I subscribe to it
> example 2 : I know some users of Qubes than who don't give a chance to
> that mail list, cause it is a new level of complexity (use of a good
> mailing software) for people who already have already some troubles with
> the very! useful man pages.
>
> I understand that is pretty more useful than an obscure forum in many
> cases BUT another example, there is common questions like
> WhatStuffICanUseWithQubes who a new user want to know at the instant
> s.he test it and s.he maybe never will ask the question nor know the
> good answer.
>
> I am (maybe?) not saying than Qubes need a forum, but, come on, there is
> another solutions, which can complete this one, and will (maybe!) not
> rely in google.
>
> So, the real question is :
> There is someone who takes care about it and optionally, Qubes_dev?
>
> Thanks for reading my broken gramar
>
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> >
>  .
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> > .
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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[Zrubi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 1/31/19 12:32 AM, marmot-te wrote:
> So, the real question is : There is someone who takes care about it
> and optionally, Qubes_dev?

There is an unofficial, PoC Qubes User Forum project:
https://qubes-os.info/


- -- 
Zrubi
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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[David W. Hodgins]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:32:00 -0500, marmot-te  wrote:


hi here,

I understand that list mail is pretty useful,

but ... come on, this is not really common user-friendly
example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I subscribe to it


Just realized google strips the sig. I'm using opera 12.16 to read
the mailing lists, which like other mail programs does show the sig,
so my apologies for implying it should have been obvious.

While I do use gmail due to it's convenience for what I do, I don't use
it's web interface except to control the settings. I use pop3 to download
all messages to my computer and smtp for replies.

I have other email accounts for things I don't want google to be able to
see, and use gpg where appropriate for end to end encryption.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

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Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

[David W. Hodgins]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:32:00 -0500, marmot-te  wrote:


hi here,

I understand that list mail is pretty useful,

but ... come on, this is not really common user-friendly
example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I subscribe to it


As per the signature auto-appended to each message. See
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/qubes-users


example 2 : I know some users of Qubes than who don't give a chance to
that mail list, cause it is a new level of complexity (use of a good
mailing software) for people who already have already some troubles with
the very! useful man pages.


While forums are useful, mailing lists do not require using a web
browser. For a security oriented distribution, mailing lists are
easier to control in a secure way.


I understand that is pretty more useful than an obscure forum in many
cases BUT another example, there is common questions like
WhatStuffICanUseWithQubes who a new user want to know at the instant
s.he test it and s.he maybe never will ask the question nor know the
good answer.


That's what the faq is for. https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/


I am (maybe?) not saying than Qubes need a forum, but, come on, there is
another solutions, which can complete this one, and will (maybe!) not
rely in google.


Why use google? Learn how to use an email program, such as thunderbird
to read and post to the lists.


So, the real question is :
There is someone who takes care about it and optionally, Qubes_dev?
Thanks for reading my broken gramar


I'm just an occasional user of qubes, but as a participant in the creation
of another distribution (Mageia), I know that if there are things in the
way a distro is doing things that you would like to see changed, and
can't convince the current team to implement those changes, join the team
and work towards getting those changes implemented.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

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