A quick word of warning: sharing build ideas is A OK, but all build specs
that we put together are for an individual. Wheels, tires, spokes, etc,
need to match a rider and riding style, the weight of the rider, the bike
and the load needs to be considered. For example, SP's smaller diameter
Per Mark's car example, I own a huge Chevy Impala which does all the carrying
and cruising stuff just dandy. Will it ever be sporty? Nope. Would I maybe add
prettier/lighter wheels and tires at some point just because I like them and I
want to? You betcha
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In my original long ago review of the Clementine, I did point out that it
was not perhaps the greatest apartment bicycle, depending on your
apartment--mine was a 3 floor walkup with a narrow and steep final set of
steps. Manageable, but barely. My Big Dummy I left in the hallway.
But I look at
An aside, but not entirely unrelated, and the blog is a very worthwhile one
-- I'm glad I found it, to replace some that have disappeared. This is
where she compares the French city bike and the 45 lb Raleigh.
https://restoringvintagebicycles.com
On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 5:53 PM Mark Roland
That sounds about right. Add big fenders, a couple of racks, dynamo hub and
lighting, a sprung leather saddle, bell, mirror, and double leg kickstand
and you will definitely be north of 40.
On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 7:07:45 PM UTC-4, alfonsejr wrote:
>
> You're correct, Patrick. My
That's exactly 1 lb less than my Matthews with full 80 mm wide fenders of
double gauge sheet and heavy-duty stays, dynamo lighting f and r, cages,
bar-space enhancer, and Revelate frame bag with kit including 4 oz bottle
of Orange Seal. Not a horrible weight at all! I've lifted my Matthews over
I'm pro kickstand, regardless of weight. They're just dang useful.
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Hi, Joyce.
I guess I would really it's makeover "how I would have built my bike three
years ago when I got it, now that I know what I know three years later."
This is actually the build I have in mind for my mixte retirement bike (or
the bike I get when I no longer can swing my leg over my
You're correct, Patrick. My un-lightened gigantic 65cm Clem weighed 30.2
lbs, as delivered from Rivendell; no fenders, racks, etc. Not a lightweight
and not ridiculously heavy; I like it.
On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 6:53:49 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'm curious about how much a
I'm curious about how much a typical (ie, no lightening surgery) Clem
weighs. Anyone?
Not 45 lb, I'll bet.
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I’m keeping my racks and basket too. I’m like you - we gotta have be able to
bring our treasures.
,
Leah
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 14, 2020, at 1:13 PM, JAS wrote:
>
>
> I've been wanting to
Joyce, you’ve likely thought of this but just in case ...
My sister puts her large Clem l on her hitch rack one end at a time. That way
she never lifts the full weight of the bike at once. Still awkward, but
somewhat more manageable.
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I've been wanting to lighten up my Clem too, yet haven't done anything
about it. It's fine for riding, but what a beast to lift onto the rack or
the work stand! I've noticed I'm not as strong as in my younger days
(surprise, surprise) when I could lift my bikes onto the roof rack. I now
have
Leah,
It took me a few more days to make a decision, but I signed off today.
I'll be getting SP Dyno, tubeless with Gravel King Slicks 48mm, and a few
changes to the bike to have it be lighter. I worked with James and Candice
when I bought my Joe A, three years ago. They are super
Clayton: Curious, what shifters and rear derailleur, and what is the
cassette? I shift 10 without problem and who knows, one day I may want to
go to 11 ..
(Me: home-made close ratio 13-25 cassette, DA 74nn rd, Suntour bar cons.)
On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 8:03 AM Clayton Scott wrote:
> I actually
James: Count me in.
Patrick Moore
On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 8:02 AM James / Analog Cycles <
analogcyc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know if there is any interest in this, but I can host a tubeless
> set up and repair video clinic if folks are interested. Tubeless is so
> much easier to deal
I am observing this thread from a metaphorical distance, but I couldn't
help but think of a blog post I read recently where the author, who
restores vintage bikes, compared her ~1952 French mixte city bike with her
~1947 Raleigh Tourist, the latter being a fully equipped rod-braked
roadster. The
I actually friction shift 11 on my rando bike. Surprisingly not hard.
Clayton Scott
HbG, CA
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“To be more ready for anything bring some gel super glue and gorilla
tape...”
Oh good. that’s super helpful (and now my new mantra)
Thx ted!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:17 AM ted wrote:
>
> re: The thing with tubeless is that IF I get a flat I feel like it’s gonna
> be more trouble (maybe due
I don't know if there is any interest in this, but I can host a tubeless
set up and repair video clinic if folks are interested. Tubeless is so
much easier to deal with than tubes once you know how to do it, but I hear
again and again on this list that folks are scared to try it. You can fix
As a Clem H owner (65 cm mustard), I just wanted to share that I am loving
this thread; what a wonderful distraction from real life. I agree the
concept may sound a bit ridiculous (I mean that in the best way, I love
ridiculousness, especially with bike things) and that's what makes it so
much
Leah,
Consider this: The Susie Clem is … the Susie Longbolts!
It has the elegant, curved “top” tube of the Clem L, albeit a little higher.
You can get a 53 in the Rivendell (?) blue. (Is this the size you would
ride?)
It will take most any large tire up to 2.8” or 70mm
The 53 cmm size
I do believe James will be specing a narrower (and tubeless) tire on those
fancy new wheels.
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On the other hand 2” (51mm) tires seem like overkill for a light rider on
anything resembling a road or mup. Going to 1.75” (45mm) seems like a good call
for non Clydesdale folks not bombing over ruts and boulders. Heck 1.5” (38mm)
would probably work fine, even if they might look a bit lost in
No, Mas, I don’t agree - I can’t see myself selling this bike. Well, if they
came out with a Susie Clem then MAYBE.
The bike isn’t THAT heavy. I love the bike, actually. It’s the most comfortable
bike I’ve ever ridden. It just needs to lose a few pounds, and I think with its
new wheels, it
The Pasela is a great, reasonably light, and not too expensive tire, but it
is a bit narrow for a Clem/Clementine.
A bit like putting Pumps on a linebacker
On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 8:42:41 AM UTC-5, anniebikes wrote:
>
> Leah, I've always thought the stock Clem L is a bit weighty. Mine is
It's always good to make the bike as lite as possible, but as others have
pointed out the Clem is a Big, Heavy, Cushy bike; that's sort of it's
defining characteristic.
I applaud your efforts, but it's a bit like buying a chunk of lead &
complaining that it weighs too much.
Now that you are
Well, I guess you can go over 10, but it gets complicated real fast and you're
gonna have issues with shifter compatibility, etc.
Maybe not a problem if you are content with friction shifting? I'll be
interested to see what she comes up with. Also, going over 11 gets
exponentially more
It's a big exciting secret! I love big exciting secrets!
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Hmmm...you know, now that I think of it, I didn’t post those details. I think
I’ll leave you all in suspense. It’s like we’ll both be finding out at the same
time because I don’t know what those details mean anyway. But in James we trust.
The summary of it is, YES, after speaking with James and
Leah,
Did I miss the part where you posted the details of your new wheels.
A list full of bike geeks are really going to want to know
Nice hand built wheels with equally nice tires will transform your bike.
Congrats
Ray
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This one goes to 11.
On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 12:01 PM Joe Bernard wrote:
> "Why does 135 limit you to 10 gears? Mine goes to 11 and others' go to 12."
>
> It doesn't, I'm fairly certain the Bitex hub she's getting will be
> 11/12-speed compatible and need a spacer to mount her 9-speed cassette.
"Why does 135 limit you to 10 gears? Mine goes to 11 and others' go to 12."
It doesn't, I'm fairly certain the Bitex hub she's getting will be 11/12-speed
compatible and need a spacer to mount her 9-speed cassette. This assumes James
@ Analog doesn't talk her into friction-shifting an 11-50
Why does 135 limit you to 10 gears? Mine goes to 11 and others' go to 12.
Clayton Scott
HBG, CA
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Leah, I guess lighten up applies in a couple ways and I confess to just seeing
this thread this morning so a little late to the party.
Some good suggestions here. I am sure the new wheels will be epic.
Maybe I missed it, but what did you end up getting?
The Clem is heavy, but you don't have
Hi Leah -
Thanks for the explanation. I think life's too short to spend time riding a
bike that's less than perfect - even if it's just because you found a
better bike.
And having used dyno lighs for over a decade, I heartily applaud you for
making the switch. I would never go back given the
Hi Corwin,
Sigh. I will explain this again.
*I don’t like how the Betty rides compared to the longer chainstay bikes. A
Cheviot has longer chainstays.
* I find the decals/headbadge/name of the Cheviot superior. I like it better.
* I love Rivendell mixtes and want a Cheviot to go along with
Hi Leah -
I'm not here to quibble with your decision/preference to sell the Betz for
a Cheviot. I do seriously doubt that any Betz is incompatible with dyno. I
have several bikes with dyno - most of them from Rivendell. The only way
the Betz could be incompatible with dyno is if you turned it
re: The thing with tubeless is that IF I get a flat I feel like it’s gonna
be more trouble (maybe due to inexperience. )
I had similar concerns. After a bit of googling i've opted for carrying a
repair kit with: one tube, two tire levers, a few tire plugs, and a plug
tool.
To be more ready
I have to admit, many of the points here I hadn't thought much about
regarding dyno lights. Dorothy, you experience is particularly helpful in
that you weren't switching to dyno lighting except that a wheel you bought
included it. And, you found it useful and have since bought other wheel
sets
I have a dynamo on my cargo bike (Tern/Xtracycle Cargo Node) and it's the
best thing ever. I live on the 4th floor, and if I've forgotten my lights
for my Clem (if I had to charge them) after I've gotten it out of my
basement and brought it outside, etc. I then have to lock up, go back
upstairs,
I had a similar experience. I was commuting on my simple one with battery
lights and thought that was just fine. I saw a pair of used single speed
wheels with a son hub for sale on the list here and decided to give the
dynamo thing a try. I found I appreciated the set it and forget it nature
Re: dynamos. I got one on my Cheviot as it was the only 650b wheelset Riv had
in at the time, and I have found a big benefit for me is that 1. I don’t have
to remember to turn lights on and off, so they never discharge if forgotten and
2. when I go grocery shopping and park the bike I don’t
I’m new to tubeless, but today I signed off with James at Analog to try it out.
Get ready to see my Clem all jazzed up with Analog’s light wheels and vivid
color schemes. It will be wild!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 10, 2020, at 7:42 AM, kim young wrote:
>
>
> Thank you for this
Thank you for this conversation.
Tube or tubeless that has been my question!
(IMHO)
there’s gonna be infrastructure one way or the other. w tubeless for me i
was intimidated due to the learning curve.
But I do like learning and once I got through some of that, tubeless isn’t
any more
Probably more than 10 years ago Grant had this huge, beat up saddle bag on
his commuter and he wrote a really funny piece about all the stuff that
accumulated in there. I can't remember if it was in a Reader or the web
site. There were normal bike things like tools and locks, but enough for
Some clarity might be in order.
Joe's Simworks tires were not tubeless tires. I know cause I mounted
them. They work for tubeless, but the tolerances are not as tight, so they
leak air more.
I've left many tubeless tires fallow all winter and come back to very
minimal pressure but an
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but dynamo can also be used to charge cell
phones and other USB devices. Always handy.
Rob
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Just an FYI about batteries - Battery technology can be some of the
dirtiest technology that there is. Many types of batteries are made of
poisons and/or carcinogens - lead and cadmium for example. Many
rechargeable batteries use lithium ion batteries. Google "lithium battery
environmental
Doug wrote "I like the idea of dyno hubs but portable LED lights are so good
and long lasting now I just don’t see the advantage unless you are touring. And
isn’t there a slight drag as compared to a standard hub?"
The drag is in practical terms zero, even with lights on. The modern hubs are
I like the idea of dyno hubs but portable LED lights are so good and long
lasting now I just don’t see the advantage unless you are touring. And isn’t
there a slight drag as compared to a standard hub?
Doug
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We have a Dyno hub on our Betty foy
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:02:22 PM UTC-5, Brian Campbell wrote:
>
> Now I don't want get in to the middle of a fray but why would a dyno hub
> not work on a Betty Foy?
>
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:51:02 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
>
Getting back to Adam's question - which kinda got lost in tubeless arguments
and peculiar shenanigans - having owned both I would agree that a Cheviot is
not *significantly* lighter than a Clem L. I think there's other things going
on there with full lugs and a different style - mixte v.
See Ken, this is where I just can't get into tubeless. I've owned a couple
bikes that cake to me that way, which was dandy because they were already
seated and pumped up; but then I needed sealant, a tool to unscrew the valve to
add sealant, and tire plugs. Ok so what do I take as tire repair
Woah. Ok, good luck with your sales.
Best,
Leah
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 8, 2020, at 9:55 PM, 'Abcyclehank' via RBW Owners Bunch
> wrote:
>
>
> Leah wants SON dyno hubs apparently on both her current Clem 650B and future
> Cheviot 700c now. Everyone is wasting their time proposing
Leah wants SON dyno hubs apparently on both her current Clem 650B and
future Cheviot 700c now. Everyone is wasting their time proposing
otherwise. This is her dream bikes are her vice. Don’t try to save her
money. Just tell her what to have Rich build up for her.
And Yes Leah I have wheel
One more benefit to SON hubs: they look *smashing* in polished silver. I insist
that's what Leah gets and will pay half for it if that's what it takes to push
her over the edge!
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Can someone confirm my suspicion that the Kaisai hubs Riv is selling are just
rebadged SP's?
If they are, SP/Kaisai are significantly lighter and more efficient than
Shimano DN-3N7x or 3N80 dynamos. They are pretty close to Schimdt SON hubs in
terms of weight and efficiency but are about half
On the dynamo hubs, anyone have experience with the one Riv is selling,
compared to Shutter Precision, or Shimano 72 or something in that range?
Intended use is general riding and commuting at speeds between 12 and 20 mph,
on 650 or 700c wheels with rim brakes, oftentimes in dirt roads, rider +
Franklyn, it was a few weeks, they weren't on a bike and I started ignoring
them. But my digression on this isn't really helpful to Roberta or Leah anyway,
neither would be mounting tires on rims. The wheels will come from James or
whoever all mounted up with tires and they would simply keep
Thumbs up emoji!
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 11:04:10 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
wrote:
>
> It would but my wheels on the Foy weren’t built for dyno. I want dyno on
> my Clem, I’m fairly certain, so I don’t want the Betz wheels on there.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 8, 2020, at
Interesting. Every time I top off sealant (through the valve with the core off)
the tire is completely flat, and usually it comes right back up with floor
pump. How long did you leave your tires completely flat?
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It would but my wheels on the Foy weren’t built for dyno. I want dyno on my
Clem, I’m fairly certain, so I don’t want the Betz wheels on there.
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 8, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Brian Campbell wrote:
>
>
> Now I don't want get in to the middle of a fray but why would a dyno
Now I don't want get in to the middle of a fray but why would a dyno hub
not work on a Betty Foy?
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:51:02 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
wrote:
>
> Oh Ryan, so salty. I didn’t know you had 650B - I did know you had 700 c.
> I am thinking of getting dyno
"The difficulty in seating only happens at set up. Afterward even if the tire
is completely flat you can pump it back up no problem."
This was not my experience. I had two go flat (because I let them sit) and
couldn't reseat them with my floor pump.
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Oh Ryan, so salty. I didn’t know you had 650B - I did know you had 700 c. I am
thinking of getting dyno though...would need to have dyno compatibility...do
you have those in your basement somewhere too?
I’m not good at pulling parts off one bike and installing on another! It was
better to
Roberta,
I think like all things, how long your tubeless tires will hold air depends on
many factors. Some of it depends on the tires. The supple tires I like to ride
from Rene Herse/Compass have side walls weaved from fabrics. Air leaks from the
interface between the rim and the tire as well
Leah,
I have a wonderful 650B velocity wheel set you may try. Also have g-ones
tires and Hetras you could try. A different size rim will require an
adjustment to brake pads.
It does frustrate me slightly that you ignore my advice about wheel and
tire improvement on ride and weight until 4-5
Funny, I'm going through a similar process with my Clem H. I swapped over
everything from my upgraded vintage MTB city 'beater', so it's a somewhat
eclectic mix of mostly economy-based parts, with a good sprinkling of fancy
parts as well. The result is a pretty heavy bike - and it's mostly due
Roberta,
Re air retention of my tubeless tire setup:
Caveats/context:
I have WTB byway tires (650b 48mm) on WTB rims set up with orange seal
(pretty sure) by Mike at Black Mountain Cycles.
I weigh between 150 and 160 lbs.
I tend to run what I think is pretty low pressure in them,
Roberta, it's for seating the tire. I had some tubeless tires on wheels not on
a bike (the SimWorks tires we briefly discussed) and I made the lame mistake of
letting them go flat from non use. I couldn't get them seated again with my
floor pump to save my life. Which connects to you next
*Joe and Franklin*--Is the compressor for only originally seating the tire,
or is it for ongoing pumping in air? So, if I have James mount the tire,
i'm OK with my standard floor pump for pumping air in?
*Ted--*when you say it doesn't hold air as well, are you talking pumping on
a daily or
As someone who's had both the Cheviot and the Clem L, I don't understand
the comments about the Cheviot being lighter or faster. My Cheviot was
neither compared to my Clem L, and it wasn't because of a difference of
part weight or the presence of a rack or not. The builds were almost
A Soma Mixte with light wheels and a 1x drivetrain probably fits the bill.
Happy to help with one if needed.
Best, james
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 1:12:57 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
wrote:
>
> I hope Rivendell is reading some of these threads and that they will
> design bikes
Well, whatever you think of the gendered bike names, I feel really sorry for
the person who has to report their bike missing/stolen one day and tell the
police it’s a Wolbis Slugstone.
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I guess I have no feeling about Romance languages and have gone off on quite a
lockdown-induced tangent. I should probably go ride my very light Frank Jones
Señor!
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No argument, though how do you feel about Romance languages where everything is
gendered?
With boats I’d say it’s just cultural tradition dating way back, and any
rationalization would likely seem sexist.
Alls I’m saying is I think the notion that giving a conveyance a female name
makes it ill
Honestly Ted the gendered name thing for vehicles has always eluded me. Some
guys refer to their cars as "her" and...I don't get it. It's metal, it's an it.
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I’ve long thought it odd that boats are female but bikes aren’t.
Have you ever known a guy who wouldn’t own a boat with female name?
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Joe (and others),
You don't need a compressor if you decide to go tubeless. Just get a good pump
with a reserve tank, like this one:
https://amzn.to/3c0Ck88
You pump up the tank to a very high pressure, the flip a switch & whoosh the
air goes into your tire super fast. It's very nifty &
Totally agree about the names. It was pointed out to me recently that when the
Clementine name was dropped so it wouldn't be a "girl's bike", we were still
left with a guy name for all of them. And guess who didn't notice because I'm a
guy?? I was embarrassed by that 臘
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My recommendation would be to move away from gendered names and gendered
marketing and just build bikes that are lighter weight, heavier weight and
let the buyer choose which suits them best. Society seems to be moving in
this direction and why not follow that path for the better of all. A big
"The combination that will fulfill these functions features are pretty unique:
non-diamond frame, lightweight tubes, long wheelbase, wide tires."
Whether there's actually a market for them worth Grant/Riv's trouble is above
my pay grade, but I see Leah's point of wanting to recommend a Riv to
I agree with the notion that new tires are probably the easiest way to
improve the ride. But I must respectfully disagree with the light & supple
knobby tire (e.g. Thunder Burt) advice for the type of bikes and riding
we're talking about in this thread. For myself I start with the fastest,
The combination that will fulfill these functions features are pretty
unique: non-diamond frame, lightweight tubes, long wheelbase, wide tires.
Even the Betty and Cheviot, which are lighter than the Clem Ls, are not
considered light, especially not for folks who are in the weight range you
are
Joe,
Tubeless sealant in inner tubes is a good compromise if you don't want to
worry about compressors, but want to have the benefits of the sealant. I
have two bikes with tubeless and 3 with tubes. I also don't have a
compressor. With new tubeless tires I have had good luck using my floor
I hope Rivendell is reading some of these threads and that they will design
bikes that are more accessible to the female of the species. Like the Susie.
Typically we women don’t have the upper body strength of men, and we tend to be
lighter. So, when people say “make the bike lighter, focus on
Melanie, we don't just recommend wheels randomly, we build quotes based on
rider weight, bike style, gear weight, where the riding is taking place,
and what kind of weather it will be ridden in. Roberta's wheelset might
not be suitable to you, and visa versa. Feel free to email me if you
I'm a Tubeless Denier because I've had miserable luck mounting them with a
floor pump and I'm not willing to pay for a noisy compressor to do the job, but
I've been fixing flats for more decades than I care to number here and consider
it part of the cycling deal. For folks who are not me and
James and Roberta - what lighter 650B wheels are you recommending?
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 12:02:00 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
wrote:
>
> I’m not fully committing to this yet. Roberta and I get into trouble
> because we talk on Marco Polo and then we get ideas and then we like
>
> I put a set of Fatty Rumpkin Greens on my Clementine, and they definitely
> make for a more responsive ride than the Big Bens.
Reduction of rotating weight always pays the greatest dividend of any
lightening efforts. With cars the rule-of-thumb is that 1 lb. off the
wheels/tires is equal
Roberta,
I am an old dog, and slow to learn new tricks. With decades of riding on
light tires I'm familiar and comfortable with fixing flats roadside, and
skeptical of the purported wounderfulness of tubeless, particularly with
higher pressure lower volume roadie tires. However last fall I got
I’m with you Roberta! :-D
On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 8:26 AM Roberta wrote:
> James, I guess I listen too. :) I just imagine tubeless goo all over
> the place if it leaks. Let's talk. Also, black sidewalls, not tan.
>
> Roberta
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:41:26 AM UTC-4, ted wrote:
James, I guess I listen too. :) I just imagine tubeless goo all over the
place if it leaks. Let's talk. Also, black sidewalls, not tan.
Roberta
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:41:26 AM UTC-4, ted wrote:
>
> James wrote "If I could convince her to go tubeless, we'd save another
> 200+
I would suggest that another way to change the feel of your bike would be to
play with the gearing. If you are currently geared for hauling your steps
between gears may make finding that perfect, effortless gear more difficult
than if you had smaller steps between gears. Gear the bike for how
Ha! I have a heavy mixte already. ;-) 1970's Raleigh Super Course mixte
frame with fenders, rack and a 7 speed internal geared hub.
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 10:50:08 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
wrote:
>
> 8 pounds, wow! That would feel like a huge difference.
>
> Nope, I’ll never
Compared to road slicks, Thunder Burts are definitely more "burly", but
they don't have the protective belts like Marathon or Big Bens do.
three thoughts about flats:
1. Jan Heine's opinion is that when you use supple tires and run them at a
reasonably low pressure, your chance of getting a
Which should be motivating you to do that experiment.
Ride your bike, weigh it, strip off the bags, racks, fenders, kick stand,
etc., weigh it again, and ride it again.
Note how many lbs you removed and how different (or similar) the striped
bike is to the original configuration.
On Wednesday,
Franklyn - I know nothings bout Thunder Burts but I’m tempted to buy them
because that is CHEAP.
Are they pretty resistant to flats? Flats are not my thing. They scare me and I
don’t know how to change them
Sent from my iPad
> On Apr 8, 2020, at 7:31 AM, franklyn wrote:
>
>
> Some of
Hello,
I’m new to Rivendell family and enjoying this discussion on ways to
lighten your bike through wheel sets.
Can anyone comment on the Rivendell 700c Velocity built Standard Atlas
wheel set in terms of lightness and comparison to other possibilities?
Thanks,
Lyman ATX
On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at
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