Re: [RBW] Re: Clem Inventory

['Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I talked to Vince today and mid-May is the expected time for Clems. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 1, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Doug Hansford  wrote:
> 
> I’ll do that. Thank you, Keith. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2020, at 5:47 PM, 'Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> When I bought mine they told me the next opportunity would be mid-March or 
>> so.  Email Spencer and ask.  He seems to be quickest with email responses.
>> 
>>> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 3:13:08 PM UTC-8, DHans wrote:
>>> I could call Riv and ask but I thought I’d check here first. Does anyone 
>>> know when they will have the Clem L completes or frames back in stock? 
>>> Doug
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

['Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I tried to refrain from posting about this but I have to.  A custom anything is 
a tremendous amount of work no matter what it is, and in my  experience none of 
the parties involved except the material supplier is charging what they should 
to properly compensate themselves.  Customers forget how quickly the hours add 
up on any little project.  This is aside from how long it took the people 
involved to learn their craft.  If one wants to have customers, you cannot 
charge enough to cover all of your time, even if the project goes perfectly.  
Those of us who do custom work do it because we love what we’re doing, not 
because it’s lucrative.



> On Mar 2, 2020, at 11:05 AM, Jay Lonner  wrote:
> 
> I agree that $4k is a bargain for a custom bike, especially if your intended 
> use includes commuting/utility cycling. Good luck owning and operating a car 
> for that price. 
> 
> The reason my next bike won’t be a Riv is a variation of your option E - I’m 
> interested in heretical technologies. I’d like to experiment with a Rohloff 
> drivetrain, Gates belt drive, and disc brakes, all of which offer potentially 
> compelling advantages in my soggy part of the world. I dig my Hunqapillar, 
> but I keep a browser tab open on the Surly Ogre...
> 
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
> 
> Sent from my Atari 400
> 
>> On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:33 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Kieran 
>> 
>> You didn't state an opinion about Rivendell's custom prices.  You only 
>> stated that $3300 is a high price for a rejected custom.  I agree with that 
>> opinion wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, at least half of the value of a 
>> custom is that it is custom.  The freedom to make something that has never 
>> been made before.  That freedom is worth $2000 to me, and in my opinion, the 
>> moment that custom is actually built, that $2000 worth of freedom is 
>> absolutely gone.  It's been spent.  In other words, it is no longer custom.  
>> I would never pay a penny more than half-price on a rejected custom.  Used 
>> stock bikes retain their value in re-sale, because they are stock.  
>> 
>> Your post here implies that you have an opinion about the price of Rivendell 
>> customs, and I'll go out on a limb and guess that your opinion is that the 
>> price is too high. The nuance, and the place where I think interesting 
>> discussion happens, is why people think $4000 is too high a price.  I can 
>> imagine a bunch of different reasons why:
>> 
>> A. $4000 is too much for me to spend on a bike frame.  I can't afford it, 
>> and if I could, I would be too worried about protecting it to enjoy it
>> B. $4000 is a rip-off.  Rivendell is price gouging.  Riv is skimming way too 
>> much profit on a frame that's nowhere near that expensive to build
>> C. $4000 is too high because builder X will build whatever I request for 
>> $2500 and so it's just as good a bike for $1500 less
>> D. $4000 is too high because stock Riv Z is so good and so much more 
>> affordable
>> 
>> I totally understand and empathize with A.  I would disagree vehemently with 
>> B.  I think there's a really useful discussion to be had around C.  I 
>> wholeheartedly endorse D, but comprehend that many retro-minded Riv devotees 
>> want the more conventional Rivendell forms (aka short chainstays).
>> 
>> My main reason for not buying a custom may be E:  I'm way too opinionated to 
>> completely surrender the design process to Grant.  Grant has talked me out 
>> of a custom at least twice over the years.  My stock Rivs are spectacular, 
>> partially because I ride Grant's frame size :).  
>> 
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>> 
>> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:48:29 AM UTC-8, Kieran J wrote:
>> In hindsight, my comments sound judge-y and insensitive. That was not my 
>> intent; I don't know anything about the original buyer of this custom so I 
>> shouldn't go there. 
>> My opinion of Riv's custom prices remains the same though. 
>> 
>> KJ
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 2:06:07 PM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>> "There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able to 
>> afford something like this" 
>> 
>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>> 
>> 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: My Custom Rivendell

[Elton Lance]

And the work stand clamp is on the seat tube?

Not generally considered good form. Just sayin. . .

Elton Lance
Vero Beach, FL





> On Mar 2, 2020, at 2:44 PM, lconley  wrote:
> 
> Yes, the shifters are on the headtube.
> 
> The initial tires will be 650B x 48 Compass Switchback Hills because I have 
> them already. I may also try some 650B x 41.5 Rivendell Fatty Rumpkin Greens 
> that I also have.
> 
> Laing
> 
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:38:10 PM UTC-5, Kieran J wrote:
> Are those shifter bosses on the headtube? Wonderfully nutty.
> 
> What size tires will you be running?
> 
> KJ
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 11:25:03 AM UTC-8, lconley wrote:
> My custom arrived last Wednesday.
> 
> I have been slowly assembling it, but first I weighed it and the coated the 
> inside of the tubes with Boeshield.
> 
> Not only did I want a custom, I need a custom. I am 6' tall with an 83 PBH 
> and weigh 280 lbs. No more extra long stems and setback seat posts on this 
> one.
> 
> The seat tube is 53 C-to-top, the effective top tube is 60 C-to-C as best I 
> can measure. All of the frame tubes are 31.8 OD. The chains stays are 55. I 
> specified no provisions for fenders or racks and there are none - no dropout 
> eyelets, no fork or stay fittings, no mounting holes in the chain stay or 
> seat stay bridges. There are Rene Herse centerpull brake braze-ons.
> 
> The frame (bare except for seat binder bolt and rear brake adjuster in the 
> seat stay mounted cable stop) weighs 5 lb. 13 oz. and the fork weighs 29.2 
> oz. for a total weight of 7 lb. 10 oz. The IRD bottom roller bearing headset 
> weighs 4.2 oz. for an assembled frame and fork of 7 lb. 10 oz. This is less 
> than 1 lb. heavier than my 56 cm 1971 Gitane Tour de France - a classic 
> Reynolds 531 racing bike.
> 
> One surprise was the 30.0 seat post - not an easy item to find in silver and 
> I really don't want to use an adapter long term. I found an NOS Campagnolo 
> Icarus 30.0 seat post from the early 90s in silver. Just have to wait for it 
> to get here from Italy.
> 
> I need get to work on building the wheels - 650B.
> 
> 
> 
> Derailleurs are Campagnolo Athena 11s because they are silver, the front 
> derailleur has an integral clamp that fits the seat tube with no spacer and 
> NOS units were very available at very reasonable prices. Crank is a Rene 
> Herse 11 speed, 26-42 and the rear cassette will be a 12-28 Dura Ace 11 sp.
> 
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
> 
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[RBW] PSA: 58 cm Bleriot 650b Dynamo hub near Philadelphia

[Roberta]

No relation to seller.  

I think he is also the same seller selling a 60 cm orange Chev. 


https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/bik/d/huntingdon-valley-rivendell-bleriot/7084666497.html

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[RBW] My Custom Rivendell

['Je Mar' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Fine looking ride!

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[RBW] Re: My Custom Rivendell

['Ann L' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That is really beautiful bike.  I look forward to seeing the completed 
project.

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[RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

[Ron Mc]

I managed over a few yearsto find two other knicker brands both on closeout 
that I like, and of course, now also discontinued.   
MUSA spoiled me for the cinch at the bottom that keeps cold air from my 
knees.  
I looked at everything offered on this page.  
The Keela SF, also discontinued, look perfect by the last pair that was on 
ebay.  
The Aerotech looked good enough, I bought a pair.  

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[RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

[Ron Mc]

I managed over a few to find two other both both on closeout knicker brands 
that I like.  
MUSA have me spoiled for the cinch at the bottom that keeps cold air from 
my knees.  
I looked at everything offered on this page.  
The Keela SF, also discontinued, look perfect by the last pair that was on 
ebay.  
The Aerotech looked good enough, I bought a pair.  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Kieran J]

Amen to that

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 3:08:40 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I hope the buyer rode it in the dirt and put a couple more scratches on it 
> and thinks we're a bunch of idiots who need to get off the internet! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Joe Bernard]

I hope the buyer rode it in the dirt and put a couple more scratches on it and 
thinks we're a bunch of idiots who need to get off the internet! 

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[RBW] Re: A nice morning for a ride before the rain

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I miss sections of smooth like in your photos. We just got 5" on snow 
overnight on top of (depending on altitude and sun/shade): mud frozen into 
deep horse hoof indents, pot holed/washboarded, rutting out dirt and 
asphalt road, frozen mud and slush ice, sheet ice, 4" wide jouncy pack snow 
track guard railed by deep powder (fall off and I may not be seen again 
till mid-June). What does smooth feel like? Oh, wait, there is a section of 
concrete sidewalk I ride. I'll pay attention there to remind myself. and 
returning on a dirt road that turns into 6" deep gelatinous gloop for the 
return ride. That's a viscus experience that makes one rethink the mud 
binding salt they spray on the road. It's harding pedaling home down hill 
through that than uphill when it was frozen. Sardonic grin. Thank you for 
expanding my horizons of what early spring can be like. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick 

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 3:41:15 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Sweet, Andy! Great brain and soul refresh. Isn't it hilarious encountering 
> the "you're riding THIS on THAT wearing THAT?" from people you've passed or 
> ridden where they couldn't?
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 3:14:35 PM UTC-7, ascpgh wrote:
>>
>> After working all weekend I needed something enjoyable to start my week 
>> and I thought my mind and my heart would do well with an all-road ride, so 
>> I set out to find it all around town. 
>>
>> About thirty miles when I finished, no idea about elevation gains and I 
>> have no idea about Strava legs or PR lists. Just some uplifting fun riding 
>> a capable bike all over the place. I was particularly proud to clean a 
>> pretty rutted, rock and root studded upslope out of the woods with a couple 
>> of FS MTB riders behind me, neither of whom made it through.  Didn't get 
>> photos of that stretch or the mud flats before it, was sort of busy 
>> wrangling my fendered Rambouillet on Stampede Pass ELs through it all. 
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/pCbKWDZqFf99qoQP9
>>
>> Andy Cheatham
>> Pittsburgh
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: A nice morning for a ride before the rain

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Sweet, Andy! Great brain and soul refresh. Isn't it hilarious encountering 
the "you're riding THIS on THAT wearing THAT?" from people you've passed or 
ridden where they couldn't?

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 3:14:35 PM UTC-7, ascpgh wrote:
>
> After working all weekend I needed something enjoyable to start my week 
> and I thought my mind and my heart would do well with an all-road ride, so 
> I set out to find it all around town. 
>
> About thirty miles when I finished, no idea about elevation gains and I 
> have no idea about Strava legs or PR lists. Just some uplifting fun riding 
> a capable bike all over the place. I was particularly proud to clean a 
> pretty rutted, rock and root studded upslope out of the woods with a couple 
> of FS MTB riders behind me, neither of whom made it through.  Didn't get 
> photos of that stretch or the mud flats before it, was sort of busy 
> wrangling my fendered Rambouillet on Stampede Pass ELs through it all. 
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/pCbKWDZqFf99qoQP9
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: 60cm Simpleone F/F/HS/Wheels

[C.J. Filip]

Price reduced to $900 OBO.

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[RBW] FS: 58cm Sam Hillborne, 2018 Cantilever, Sage GRN - frameset

[Adam Leibow]

Hi All,

As title states, I am selling my 2018 58CM Sage GRN Canti Sam 
frame/fork/headset/seatpost. See link for photo and more info. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B9NQeQSF2oQ/

Many of the parts can be made available if that would sweeten the deal. 
Please text me (310) 963 6959 if you are interested. 

Thanks!

Adam

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[RBW] A nice morning for a ride before the rain

[ascpgh]

After working all weekend I needed something enjoyable to start my week and 
I thought my mind and my heart would do well with an all-road ride, so I 
set out to find it all around town. 

About thirty miles when I finished, no idea about elevation gains and I 
have no idea about Strava legs or PR lists. Just some uplifting fun riding 
a capable bike all over the place. I was particularly proud to clean a 
pretty rutted, rock and root studded upslope out of the woods with a couple 
of FS MTB riders behind me, neither of whom made it through.  Didn't get 
photos of that stretch or the mud flats before it, was sort of busy 
wrangling my fendered Rambouillet on Stampede Pass ELs through it all. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pCbKWDZqFf99qoQP9

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Bill Lindsay]

I hope the buyer is a list member and shows us their build.  It looks like 
it will be a really special bike.  If the buyer is a list member and saw a 
number of people proclaim why they would not have paid $3300 for this 
particular frameset, then I hope that buyer still feels satisfaction in 
having spent their money.  Most of us buy what we want, regardless of 
whether somebody else thinks we got a good deal.  

More importantly, I hope the buyer gets enough joy out of their new bike 
that they forget what they paid for it. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 11:49:38 AM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>
> I kinda hope the buyer is not a list member, now that we've gotten our 
> opinions off our chest. 
>
> If he or she is, please share when you get your new bike built up, it's a 
> special one. In any case, it's already legendary...
>

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[RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Neglected to mention that one of the great things about boiled wool is it 
can, like all wool, be worn multiple times between washings. So, even just 
a pair or two can, with judicious timing of weather to laundry, work all 
winter.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Mark Roland]

I kinda hope the buyer is not a list member, now that we've gotten our opinions 
off our chest. 

If he or she is, please share when you get your new bike built up, it's a 
special one. In any case, it's already legendary...

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[RBW] Re: My Custom Rivendell

[lconley]

Yes, the shifters are on the headtube.

The initial tires will be 650B x 48 Compass Switchback Hills because I have 
them already. I may also try some 650B x 41.5 Rivendell Fatty Rumpkin 
Greens that I also have.

Laing

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:38:10 PM UTC-5, Kieran J wrote:

> Are those shifter bosses on the headtube? Wonderfully nutty.
>
> What size tires will you be running?
>
> KJ
>
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 11:25:03 AM UTC-8, lconley wrote:
>>
>> My custom arrived last Wednesday.
>>
>> I have been slowly assembling it, but first I weighed it and the coated 
>> the inside of the tubes with Boeshield.
>>
>> Not only did I want a custom, I need a custom. I am 6' tall with an 83 
>> PBH and weigh 280 lbs. No more extra long stems and setback seat posts on 
>> this one.
>>
>> The seat tube is 53 C-to-top, the effective top tube is 60 C-to-C as best 
>> I can measure. All of the frame tubes are 31.8 OD. The chains stays are 55. 
>> I specified no provisions for fenders or racks and there are none - no 
>> dropout eyelets, no fork or stay fittings, no mounting holes in the chain 
>> stay or seat stay bridges. There are Rene Herse centerpull brake braze-ons.
>>
>> The frame (bare except for seat binder bolt and rear brake adjuster in 
>> the seat stay mounted cable stop) weighs 5 lb. 13 oz. and the fork weighs 
>> 29.2 oz. for a total weight of 7 lb. 10 oz. The IRD bottom roller bearing 
>> headset weighs 4.2 oz. for an assembled frame and fork of 7 lb. 10 oz. This 
>> is less than 1 lb. heavier than my 56 cm 1971 Gitane Tour de France - a 
>> classic Reynolds 531 racing bike.
>>
>> One surprise was the 30.0 seat post - not an easy item to find in silver 
>> and I really don't want to use an adapter long term. I found an NOS 
>> Campagnolo Icarus 30.0 seat post from the early 90s in silver. Just have to 
>> wait for it to get here from Italy.
>>
>> I need get to work on building the wheels - 650B.
>>
>> [image: IMG_0558.jpg]
>>
>> Derailleurs are Campagnolo Athena 11s because they are silver, the front 
>> derailleur has an integral clamp that fits the seat tube with no spacer and 
>> NOS units were very available at very reasonable prices. Crank is a Rene 
>> Herse 11 speed, 26-42 and the rear cassette will be a 12-28 Dura Ace 11 sp. 
>>
>> Laing
>> Delray Beach FL
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: My Custom Rivendell

[Joe Bernard]

That's so pretty. I love the idea of silver Athena derailers, that's a nice 
touch. Also, nice Guv'nor!

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[RBW] Re: My Custom Rivendell

[Kieran J]

Are those shifter bosses on the headtube? Wonderfully nutty.

What size tires will you be running?

KJ


On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 11:25:03 AM UTC-8, lconley wrote:
>
> My custom arrived last Wednesday.
>
> I have been slowly assembling it, but first I weighed it and the coated 
> the inside of the tubes with Boeshield.
>
> Not only did I want a custom, I need a custom. I am 6' tall with an 83 PBH 
> and weigh 280 lbs. No more extra long stems and setback seat posts on this 
> one.
>
> The seat tube is 53 C-to-top, the effective top tube is 60 C-to-C as best 
> I can measure. All of the frame tubes are 31.8 OD. The chains stays are 55. 
> I specified no provisions for fenders or racks and there are none - no 
> dropout eyelets, no fork or stay fittings, no mounting holes in the chain 
> stay or seat stay bridges. There are Rene Herse centerpull brake braze-ons.
>
> The frame (bare except for seat binder bolt and rear brake adjuster in the 
> seat stay mounted cable stop) weighs 5 lb. 13 oz. and the fork weighs 29.2 
> oz. for a total weight of 7 lb. 10 oz. The IRD bottom roller bearing 
> headset weighs 4.2 oz. for an assembled frame and fork of 7 lb. 10 oz. This 
> is less than 1 lb. heavier than my 56 cm 1971 Gitane Tour de France - a 
> classic Reynolds 531 racing bike.
>
> One surprise was the 30.0 seat post - not an easy item to find in silver 
> and I really don't want to use an adapter long term. I found an NOS 
> Campagnolo Icarus 30.0 seat post from the early 90s in silver. Just have to 
> wait for it to get here from Italy.
>
> I need get to work on building the wheels - 650B.
>
> [image: IMG_0558.jpg]
>
> Derailleurs are Campagnolo Athena 11s because they are silver, the front 
> derailleur has an integral clamp that fits the seat tube with no spacer and 
> NOS units were very available at very reasonable prices. Crank is a Rene 
> Herse 11 speed, 26-42 and the rear cassette will be a 12-28 Dura Ace 11 sp. 
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>

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[RBW] Re: My Custom Rivendell

[lconley]

Total weight of 7 lb. 14 oz.

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:25:03 PM UTC-5, lconley wrote:
>
> My custom arrived last Wednesday.
>
> I have been slowly assembling it, but first I weighed it and the coated 
> the inside of the tubes with Boeshield.
>
> Not only did I want a custom, I need a custom. I am 6' tall with an 83 PBH 
> and weigh 280 lbs. No more extra long stems and setback seat posts on this 
> one.
>
> The seat tube is 53 C-to-top, the effective top tube is 60 C-to-C as best 
> I can measure. All of the frame tubes are 31.8 OD. The chains stays are 55. 
> I specified no provisions for fenders or racks and there are none - no 
> dropout eyelets, no fork or stay fittings, no mounting holes in the chain 
> stay or seat stay bridges. There are Rene Herse centerpull brake braze-ons.
>
> The frame (bare except for seat binder bolt and rear brake adjuster in the 
> seat stay mounted cable stop) weighs 5 lb. 13 oz. and the fork weighs 29.2 
> oz. for a total weight of 7 lb. 10 oz. The IRD bottom roller bearing 
> headset weighs 4.2 oz. for an assembled frame and fork of 7 lb. 10 oz. This 
> is less than 1 lb. heavier than my 56 cm 1971 Gitane Tour de France - a 
> classic Reynolds 531 racing bike.
>
> One surprise was the 30.0 seat post - not an easy item to find in silver 
> and I really don't want to use an adapter long term. I found an NOS 
> Campagnolo Icarus 30.0 seat post from the early 90s in silver. Just have to 
> wait for it to get here from Italy.
>
> I need get to work on building the wheels - 650B.
>
> [image: IMG_0558.jpg]
>
> Derailleurs are Campagnolo Athena 11s because they are silver, the front 
> derailleur has an integral clamp that fits the seat tube with no spacer and 
> NOS units were very available at very reasonable prices. Crank is a Rene 
> Herse 11 speed, 26-42 and the rear cassette will be a 12-28 Dura Ace 11 sp. 
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

[Robert Tilley]

  I own a few pairs of the Ferrosi 3/4 pants and really like them. The only thing I wish they had was a built-in belt. I have a couple pairs of long-ago discontinued Mountain Hardwear knickers that have a cinch belt and I really like that feature. I should have stocked up on those while they were still made.Think I will buy a couple more Ferrosi's for the stash in case they get scarce.Robert "woulda, shoulda, coulda" TilleySan Diego, CA Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device   From: lefebea...@gmail.comSent: March 2, 2020 9:05 AMTo: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comReply-to: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comSubject: [RBW] Re: Knicker Quest  I've put a lot of miles on a pair of Outdoor Research 3/4 Ferrosi pants - liked them so much I just bought another pair. Check 'em out: https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/mens?or_product_type=117_list_limit=allPros: rugged, breathable in heat yet oddly comfortable in cool weather, don't absorb a lot of water, dry fast, reasonably flat seams, plenty of length below knee with a flexible elastic cord closure that can be left open if it heats up; not noticeably noisy fabric when walking; Cons: synthetic fabric may not appeal to some; fabric does pill a bit after a lot of use; rear pockets could use zippers (which the full-length version of this pant has), and zippered R side thigh pocket may be too small to be very useful. I mostly ride in these or their shorts in warm weather since deciding I'm done with Spandex. Full disclosure - I get OR stuff at a discount since I work in Conservation so their stuff may be more attractive to me than it is to you.Slightly off-topic but related - can anyone recommend good knee-high socks to wear with these for cooler weather? 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Kieran J]

I like your multiple choices, Bill. Thanks for laying things out in your 
distinctive rhetorical style!

I feel like there is merit in all besides B. I know Nobilette builds a 
variety of frames, including as the go-to builder for Jan's RH superbikes. 
Obviously there is journeyman skillset there and the cost reflects this. 
Incidentally, if I were to order a custom Riv, it would probably be nearly 
identical to this one (albeit in 67cm).

That said, I have had two (less fancy) customs built for me simply because 
the bike I wanted did not exist in the world in my size or desired style. 
Besides the fact that both of them cost approximately 1/3rd that of a Riv 
custom, I went that route for the reason you laid out: they were built for 
me, under my direction. I love them both.

As you said, paying nearly full premium price for a blemished not-custom 
custom wouldn't do for me. That said, if a dead ringer of the original 
buyer (and presumably the secondary buyer of this frameset) is presented 
with the opportunity to purchase the custom they would have ordered anyways 
at a small discount and no wait time, the modest flaws could very well be a 
moot point.

KJ


On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:33:35 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Kieran 
>
> You didn't state an opinion about Rivendell's custom prices.  You only 
> stated that $3300 is a high price for a rejected custom.  I agree with that 
> opinion wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, at least half of the value of a 
> custom is that it is custom.  The freedom to make something that has never 
> been made before.  That freedom is worth $2000 to me, and in my opinion, 
> the moment that custom is actually built, that $2000 worth of freedom is 
> absolutely gone.  It's been spent.  In other words, it is no longer 
> custom.  I would never pay a penny more than half-price on a rejected 
> custom.  Used stock bikes retain their value in re-sale, because they are 
> stock.  
>
> Your post here implies that you have an opinion about the price of 
> Rivendell customs, and I'll go out on a limb and guess that your opinion is 
> that the price is too high. The nuance, and the place where I think 
> interesting discussion happens, is why people think $4000 is too high a 
> price.  I can imagine a bunch of different reasons why:
>
> A. $4000 is too much for me to spend on a bike frame.  I can't afford it, 
> and if I could, I would be too worried about protecting it to enjoy it
> B. $4000 is a rip-off.  Rivendell is price gouging.  Riv is skimming way 
> too much profit on a frame that's nowhere near that expensive to build
> C. $4000 is too high because builder X will build whatever I request for 
> $2500 and so it's just as good a bike for $1500 less
> D. $4000 is too high because stock Riv Z is so good and so much more 
> affordable
>
> I totally understand and empathize with A.  I would disagree vehemently 
> with B.  I think there's a really useful discussion to be had around C.  I 
> wholeheartedly endorse D, but comprehend that many retro-minded Riv 
> devotees want the more conventional Rivendell forms (aka short chainstays).
>
> My main reason for not buying a custom may be E:  I'm way too opinionated 
> to completely surrender the design process to Grant.  Grant has talked me 
> out of a custom at least twice over the years.  My stock Rivs are 
> spectacular, partially because I ride Grant's frame size :).  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:48:29 AM UTC-8, Kieran J wrote:
>>
>> In hindsight, my comments sound judge-y and insensitive. That was not my 
>> intent; I don't know anything about the original buyer of this custom so I 
>> shouldn't go there. 
>> My opinion of Riv's custom prices remains the same though. 
>>
>> KJ
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 2:06:07 PM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> *"There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being 
>>> able to afford something like this" *
>>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:


 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Brian Campbell]

I have purchased 2 frames from Rivendell.  An AHH in 2011 and a Legolas in 
2019. I asked for and paid for  the AHH  to be a custom color, Green. It 
came back from the painters Grilver. (Gray & silver mix).
 Riv.  offered to repaint the frame or give me a discount on the *original 
*frame 
price, sans custom paint up charge, equivalent to cost for custom paint. In 
short I got a new 2011 AA in a custom color for $300 IIRC less because of 
the mistake.

In 2019 I ordered a Legolas. In talking with Mark the bike was specced with 
rear rack mounts (for light loads) with the mounts on the inside of the 
seat stays. The frame came with them on the outside of the seat stays.  
Mark asked if I was OK with that and I agreed it was not a big deal. He had 
already included DT shifter braze ons, front & rear fender mounts, seat 
stay bridge threaded fender mount, chain stay bridge threaded fender mount 
and a pump peg with no additional up charge.

 Riv has always done a great job of dealing with mistakes in my experience. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Jay Lonner]

I agree that $4k is a bargain for a custom bike, especially if your intended 
use includes commuting/utility cycling. Good luck owning and operating a car 
for that price. 

The reason my next bike won’t be a Riv is a variation of your option E - I’m 
interested in heretical technologies. I’d like to experiment with a Rohloff 
drivetrain, Gates belt drive, and disc brakes, all of which offer potentially 
compelling advantages in my soggy part of the world. I dig my Hunqapillar, but 
I keep a browser tab open on the Surly Ogre...

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:33 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> 
> 
> Kieran 
> 
> You didn't state an opinion about Rivendell's custom prices.  You only stated 
> that $3300 is a high price for a rejected custom.  I agree with that opinion 
> wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, at least half of the value of a custom is 
> that it is custom.  The freedom to make something that has never been made 
> before.  That freedom is worth $2000 to me, and in my opinion, the moment 
> that custom is actually built, that $2000 worth of freedom is absolutely 
> gone.  It's been spent.  In other words, it is no longer custom.  I would 
> never pay a penny more than half-price on a rejected custom.  Used stock 
> bikes retain their value in re-sale, because they are stock.  
> 
> Your post here implies that you have an opinion about the price of Rivendell 
> customs, and I'll go out on a limb and guess that your opinion is that the 
> price is too high. The nuance, and the place where I think interesting 
> discussion happens, is why people think $4000 is too high a price.  I can 
> imagine a bunch of different reasons why:
> 
> A. $4000 is too much for me to spend on a bike frame.  I can't afford it, and 
> if I could, I would be too worried about protecting it to enjoy it
> B. $4000 is a rip-off.  Rivendell is price gouging.  Riv is skimming way too 
> much profit on a frame that's nowhere near that expensive to build
> C. $4000 is too high because builder X will build whatever I request for 
> $2500 and so it's just as good a bike for $1500 less
> D. $4000 is too high because stock Riv Z is so good and so much more 
> affordable
> 
> I totally understand and empathize with A.  I would disagree vehemently with 
> B.  I think there's a really useful discussion to be had around C.  I 
> wholeheartedly endorse D, but comprehend that many retro-minded Riv devotees 
> want the more conventional Rivendell forms (aka short chainstays).
> 
> My main reason for not buying a custom may be E:  I'm way too opinionated to 
> completely surrender the design process to Grant.  Grant has talked me out of 
> a custom at least twice over the years.  My stock Rivs are spectacular, 
> partially because I ride Grant's frame size :).  
> 
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
> 
>> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:48:29 AM UTC-8, Kieran J wrote:
>> In hindsight, my comments sound judge-y and insensitive. That was not my 
>> intent; I don't know anything about the original buyer of this custom so I 
>> shouldn't go there. 
>> My opinion of Riv's custom prices remains the same though. 
>> 
>> KJ
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 2:06:07 PM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>>> "There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able 
>>> to afford something like this" 
>>> 
 On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
 
 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. 
 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Bill Lindsay]

Kieran 

You didn't state an opinion about Rivendell's custom prices.  You only 
stated that $3300 is a high price for a rejected custom.  I agree with that 
opinion wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, at least half of the value of a 
custom is that it is custom.  The freedom to make something that has never 
been made before.  That freedom is worth $2000 to me, and in my opinion, 
the moment that custom is actually built, that $2000 worth of freedom is 
absolutely gone.  It's been spent.  In other words, it is no longer 
custom.  I would never pay a penny more than half-price on a rejected 
custom.  Used stock bikes retain their value in re-sale, because they are 
stock.  

Your post here implies that you have an opinion about the price of 
Rivendell customs, and I'll go out on a limb and guess that your opinion is 
that the price is too high. The nuance, and the place where I think 
interesting discussion happens, is why people think $4000 is too high a 
price.  I can imagine a bunch of different reasons why:

A. $4000 is too much for me to spend on a bike frame.  I can't afford it, 
and if I could, I would be too worried about protecting it to enjoy it
B. $4000 is a rip-off.  Rivendell is price gouging.  Riv is skimming way 
too much profit on a frame that's nowhere near that expensive to build
C. $4000 is too high because builder X will build whatever I request for 
$2500 and so it's just as good a bike for $1500 less
D. $4000 is too high because stock Riv Z is so good and so much more 
affordable

I totally understand and empathize with A.  I would disagree vehemently 
with B.  I think there's a really useful discussion to be had around C.  I 
wholeheartedly endorse D, but comprehend that many retro-minded Riv 
devotees want the more conventional Rivendell forms (aka short chainstays).

My main reason for not buying a custom may be E:  I'm way too opinionated 
to completely surrender the design process to Grant.  Grant has talked me 
out of a custom at least twice over the years.  My stock Rivs are 
spectacular, partially because I ride Grant's frame size :).  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 9:48:29 AM UTC-8, Kieran J wrote:
>
> In hindsight, my comments sound judge-y and insensitive. That was not my 
> intent; I don't know anything about the original buyer of this custom so I 
> shouldn't go there. 
> My opinion of Riv's custom prices remains the same though. 
>
> KJ
>
>
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 2:06:07 PM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>
>> *"There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being 
>> able to afford something like this" *
>> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. 
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Kieran J]

In hindsight, my comments sound judge-y and insensitive. That was not my 
intent; I don't know anything about the original buyer of this custom so I 
shouldn't go there. 
My opinion of Riv's custom prices remains the same though. 

KJ


On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 2:06:07 PM UTC-8, Mark Roland wrote:
>
>
> *"There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able 
> to afford something like this" *
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

[Patrick Moore]

Aha! Thanks for this. I'm currently using up 2 pr of Rick's Knick's sox
made by The Sock Guy, and given my preference for cycling long pants,
they'll probably last years. But it's good to have alternatives.

Lightweight, dressy option: Jitensha Studios:

https://www.jitensha.com/eng/knickersocks.html

Question of my own: Does anyone know of a vendor for good-quality *black*
wool knicker socks?

The argyles, though, are tref or haram.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:22 AM 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I wear heavy boiled wool socks from Dachstein in Australia. They are
> fantastic, and with Sorel boots work down to ten degrees. Add a 4-ply calk
> sock under and a breathable gater over (ventile) to block all wind, and
> they are toasty to -20˚F, including having a pipe stop for an hour.
>
> Boiled wool socks I wear:
>
> https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear/dw-5115-adult-socks/#cc-m-product-11653655331
>
> Lighter weight ones:
>
> https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear/dw-5114-adult-socks/#cc-m-product-11653650031
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:05:29 AM UTC-7, Lefebeaver wrote:
>>
>> I've put a lot of miles on a pair of Outdoor Research 3/4 Ferrosi pants -
>> liked them so much I just bought another pair. Check 'em out:
>> https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/mens?or_product_type=117_list_limit=all
>> Pros: rugged, breathable in heat yet oddly comfortable in cool weather,
>> don't absorb a lot of water, dry fast, reasonably flat seams, plenty of
>> length below knee with a flexible elastic cord closure that can be left
>> open if it heats up; not noticeably noisy fabric when walking; Cons:
>> synthetic fabric may not appeal to some; fabric does pill a bit after a lot
>> of use; rear pockets could use zippers (which the full-length version of
>> this pant has), and zippered R side thigh pocket may be too small to be
>> very useful. I mostly ride in these or their shorts in warm weather since
>> deciding I'm done with Spandex. Full disclosure - I get OR stuff at a
>> discount since I work in Conservation so their stuff may be more attractive
>> to me than it is to you.
>>
>>>
>> Slightly off-topic but related - can anyone recommend good knee-high
>> socks to wear with these for cooler weather?
>>
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> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I wear heavy boiled wool socks from Dachstein in Australia. They are 
fantastic, and with Sorel boots work down to ten degrees. Add a 4-ply calk 
sock under and a breathable gater over (ventile) to block all wind, and 
they are toasty to -20˚F, including having a pipe stop for an hour.

Boiled wool socks I wear:
https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear/dw-5115-adult-socks/#cc-m-product-11653655331

Lighter weight ones:
https://www.sweaterchalet.com/dachstein-woolwear/dw-5114-adult-socks/#cc-m-product-11653650031

With abandon,
Patrick


On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 10:05:29 AM UTC-7, Lefebeaver wrote:
>
> I've put a lot of miles on a pair of Outdoor Research 3/4 Ferrosi pants - 
> liked them so much I just bought another pair. Check 'em out: 
> https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/mens?or_product_type=117_list_limit=all
> Pros: rugged, breathable in heat yet oddly comfortable in cool weather, 
> don't absorb a lot of water, dry fast, reasonably flat seams, plenty of 
> length below knee with a flexible elastic cord closure that can be left 
> open if it heats up; not noticeably noisy fabric when walking; Cons: 
> synthetic fabric may not appeal to some; fabric does pill a bit after a lot 
> of use; rear pockets could use zippers (which the full-length version of 
> this pant has), and zippered R side thigh pocket may be too small to be 
> very useful. I mostly ride in these or their shorts in warm weather since 
> deciding I'm done with Spandex. Full disclosure - I get OR stuff at a 
> discount since I work in Conservation so their stuff may be more attractive 
> to me than it is to you.
>
>>
> Slightly off-topic but related - can anyone recommend good knee-high socks 
> to wear with these for cooler weather? 
>

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[RBW] Re: Knicker Quest

[Lefebeaver]

I've put a lot of miles on a pair of Outdoor Research 3/4 Ferrosi pants - 
liked them so much I just bought another pair. Check 'em out: 
https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/mens?or_product_type=117_list_limit=all
Pros: rugged, breathable in heat yet oddly comfortable in cool weather, 
don't absorb a lot of water, dry fast, reasonably flat seams, plenty of 
length below knee with a flexible elastic cord closure that can be left 
open if it heats up; not noticeably noisy fabric when walking; Cons: 
synthetic fabric may not appeal to some; fabric does pill a bit after a lot 
of use; rear pockets could use zippers (which the full-length version of 
this pant has), and zippered R side thigh pocket may be too small to be 
very useful. I mostly ride in these or their shorts in warm weather since 
deciding I'm done with Spandex. Full disclosure - I get OR stuff at a 
discount since I work in Conservation so their stuff may be more attractive 
to me than it is to you.

>
Slightly off-topic but related - can anyone recommend good knee-high socks 
to wear with these for cooler weather? 

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[RBW] Re: FS: 650B Nobilette Protovelo & Bruce Gordon Custom Road

[S. Greco]

Bump, price adjustments. Open to offers.

Bruce Gordon : $1500 with drops / $1750 with both cockpits

Rivendell Protovelo : $2700 / $2200 for frame/fork/headset/bottom 
bracket/rack/wheelset

The rack, cockpit, and tires from the Protovelo (as pictured) have sold. 
I will include a Nitto 32F (mini front rack) and the tires will be soma 
grand randonneur 42s (cream) 
You can choose between either technomic / nitto noodle cockpit, or 
technomic / soma portola cockpit. 




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