Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Steven Sweedler]

Wes, sounds great. Thats why we have so many choices of bars, something for
everyone. Steve

On Mon, Aug 1, 2022 at 2:04 PM Wesley  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> I love descending on upright bars! It is slower than getting into the
> drops because the upright posture creates a ton of wind resistance, but the
> enhanced view is more than worth it!
>
> A few months ago, I converted my do-anything tank from drops to an
> albatross bar. The impetus was a hilly off-road ride where I felt unsafe
> descending on the drop bars. Hands on the hoods meant that if my hands
> slipped, they'd fly off the bars and I'd be injured in a fall. That risk
> was gone if I kept my hands in the drops, but then my body was leaned far
> forward in the descents and I had to be very careful not to get sent over
> the bars by braking or hitting rocks. Plus, the posture was terrible and I
> was stuck staring down at my wheel instead of the forest around me.
>
> On the albatross bars, my descending position is the same as my
> quick-riding position: thumbs hooked over the bar and hands grabbing the
> body of my brake levers. When I need to brake, I can squeeze with my pinky
> or just shift my hand back an inch and squeeze. Having my thumb around the
> bar means it can't slip off, and I just find the hand position extremely
> comfortable. I just did a hilly weekend camping trip on a mix of roads and
> trails. This arrangement was fantastic!
>
> -Wes
>
> On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:36:13 PM UTC-7 Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
>>
>> I’m another rider who started wirh drops on my first 10 speed that I got
>> for my thirteenth birthday. Still on drops 58 years later, always level
>> with my saddle. Twice I’ve built up bikes with flat bars and always went
>> back to drops. I do spend most  of my time on the ramps or hoods but
>> whenever descending, once my speed reaches 25-30 mph I always reach for the
>> drops and feel much more secure. I’m curious how others feel on upright
>> bikes while descending. Steve
>> On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 4:11 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Marc Irwin stated:   "The point is that riders don't use that position
>>> (I'm assuming drops).  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars
>>> actually got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or
>>> the flats the whole ride."
>>>
>>> Typically, this is because their stems are too low and the drops are too
>>> low to use, unless your a pro rider or a top athlete.   If you raise the
>>> stem to get the tops at saddle height, the drops are very usuable.  I
>>> believe Grant P made this point in a RR in the past.
>>>
>>> Also, above 15 mph, I can feel the increase drag from the wind
>>> resistance and go down to the drops to reduce it. Others may be content
>>> with being more upright, but you need additional energy to do it.
>>>
>>> Just remember, wind resistance varies as the square of the velocity:
>>>  15 mph has 2.25 times the wind drag as at 10 mph ( (15/10)^2 ), even
>>> though you are going only 1.5 times as fast.If you a going into a
>>> headwind, the wind speed adds to you wind resistance.
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown NJ
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:12:02 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:
>>>
 Eric,
 The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the
 wind, only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They
 all stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.

 Marc

 On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:

> Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way.
> A more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better.
>
> Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up
> fronter if she had drops.
>
> Eric
> With no drop bar bikes in the garage.
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:
>
>> It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A
>> typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of
>> people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with 
>> drop
>> bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright
>> bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group,
>> Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her
>> posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop 
>> bars.
>> [image: high bars.jpg]
>> It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop
>> bars make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?
>>
>> Marc
>>
> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>
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>> an email to 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Wesley]

Hi Steve,
I love descending on upright bars! It is slower than getting into the drops 
because the upright posture creates a ton of wind resistance, but the 
enhanced view is more than worth it!

A few months ago, I converted my do-anything tank from drops to an 
albatross bar. The impetus was a hilly off-road ride where I felt unsafe 
descending on the drop bars. Hands on the hoods meant that if my hands 
slipped, they'd fly off the bars and I'd be injured in a fall. That risk 
was gone if I kept my hands in the drops, but then my body was leaned far 
forward in the descents and I had to be very careful not to get sent over 
the bars by braking or hitting rocks. Plus, the posture was terrible and I 
was stuck staring down at my wheel instead of the forest around me.

On the albatross bars, my descending position is the same as my 
quick-riding position: thumbs hooked over the bar and hands grabbing the 
body of my brake levers. When I need to brake, I can squeeze with my pinky 
or just shift my hand back an inch and squeeze. Having my thumb around the 
bar means it can't slip off, and I just find the hand position extremely 
comfortable. I just did a hilly weekend camping trip on a mix of roads and 
trails. This arrangement was fantastic!

-Wes

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:36:13 PM UTC-7 Steven Sweedler wrote:

>
> I’m another rider who started wirh drops on my first 10 speed that I got 
> for my thirteenth birthday. Still on drops 58 years later, always level 
> with my saddle. Twice I’ve built up bikes with flat bars and always went 
> back to drops. I do spend most  of my time on the ramps or hoods but 
> whenever descending, once my speed reaches 25-30 mph I always reach for the 
> drops and feel much more secure. I’m curious how others feel on upright 
> bikes while descending. Steve
> On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 4:11 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Marc Irwin stated:   "The point is that riders don't use that position 
>> (I'm assuming drops).  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars 
>> actually got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or 
>> the flats the whole ride."
>>
>> Typically, this is because their stems are too low and the drops are too 
>> low to use, unless your a pro rider or a top athlete.   If you raise the 
>> stem to get the tops at saddle height, the drops are very usuable.  I 
>> believe Grant P made this point in a RR in the past.
>>
>> Also, above 15 mph, I can feel the increase drag from the wind resistance 
>> and go down to the drops to reduce it. Others may be content with being 
>> more upright, but you need additional energy to do it.  
>>
>> Just remember, wind resistance varies as the square of the velocity:   15 
>> mph has 2.25 times the wind drag as at 10 mph ( (15/10)^2 ), even though 
>> you are going only 1.5 times as fast.If you a going into a headwind, 
>> the wind speed adds to you wind resistance.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:12:02 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:
>>
>>> Eric,
>>> The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the 
>>> wind, only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They 
>>> all stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:
>>>
 Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. 
 A more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 

 Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up 
 fronter if she had drops. 

 Eric
 With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 


 On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:

> It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A 
> typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of 
> people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with 
> drop 
> bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright 
> bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, 
> Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her 
> posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop 
> bars.
> [image: high bars.jpg]
> It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop 
> bars make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  
>
> Marc
>
 -- 
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>  

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Steven Sweedler]

I’m another rider who started wirh drops on my first 10 speed that I got
for my thirteenth birthday. Still on drops 58 years later, always level
with my saddle. Twice I’ve built up bikes with flat bars and always went
back to drops. I do spend most  of my time on the ramps or hoods but
whenever descending, once my speed reaches 25-30 mph I always reach for the
drops and feel much more secure. I’m curious how others feel on upright
bikes while descending. Steve
On Sun, Jul 31, 2022 at 4:11 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Marc Irwin stated:   "The point is that riders don't use that position
> (I'm assuming drops).  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars
> actually got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or
> the flats the whole ride."
>
> Typically, this is because their stems are too low and the drops are too
> low to use, unless your a pro rider or a top athlete.   If you raise the
> stem to get the tops at saddle height, the drops are very usuable.  I
> believe Grant P made this point in a RR in the past.
>
> Also, above 15 mph, I can feel the increase drag from the wind resistance
> and go down to the drops to reduce it. Others may be content with being
> more upright, but you need additional energy to do it.
>
> Just remember, wind resistance varies as the square of the velocity:   15
> mph has 2.25 times the wind drag as at 10 mph ( (15/10)^2 ), even though
> you are going only 1.5 times as fast.If you a going into a headwind,
> the wind speed adds to you wind resistance.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:12:02 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>> The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the wind,
>> only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all
>> stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A
>>> more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better.
>>>
>>> Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up
>>> fronter if she had drops.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>> With no drop bar bikes in the garage.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:
>>>
 It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A
 typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of
 people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop
 bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright
 bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group,
 Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her
 posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.
 [image: high bars.jpg]
 It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars
 make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?

 Marc

>>> --
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 Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

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 To view this discussion on the web visit
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cedfdbf5-1e48-4ac8-b43b-5a4929b914c5n%40googlegroups.com
 
 .

>>> --
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> 
> .
>
-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Marc Irwin stated:   "The point is that riders don't use that position (I'm 
assuming drops).  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars actually 
got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or the flats 
the whole ride."

Typically, this is because their stems are too low and the drops are too 
low to use, unless your a pro rider or a top athlete.   If you raise the 
stem to get the tops at saddle height, the drops are very usuable.  I 
believe Grant P made this point in a RR in the past.

Also, above 15 mph, I can feel the increase drag from the wind resistance 
and go down to the drops to reduce it. Others may be content with being 
more upright, but you need additional energy to do it.  

Just remember, wind resistance varies as the square of the velocity:   15 
mph has 2.25 times the wind drag as at 10 mph ( (15/10)^2 ), even though 
you are going only 1.5 times as fast.If you a going into a headwind, 
the wind speed adds to you wind resistance.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:12:02 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:

> Eric,
> The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the wind, 
> only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all 
> stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.
>
> Marc
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:
>
>> Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A 
>> more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 
>>
>> Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up 
>> fronter if she had drops. 
>>
>> Eric
>> With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:
>>
>>> It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A 
>>> typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of 
>>> people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop 
>>> bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright 
>>> bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, 
>>> Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her 
>>> posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.
>>> [image: high bars.jpg]
>>> It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars 
>>> make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>
>>
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cedfdbf5-1e48-4ac8-b43b-5a4929b914c5n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Wesley, this is useful information. An Albastache won't replace my
drop bars because I often use the hooks, but it might give more hand
positions on my Monocog 29er than the (cut down) MAP/Ahearne bar currently
on it, which, though it is the best "upright" bar I've used to date, is not
as comfortable as my drops.

The one thing that makes me hesitate about the Albastache (and other
Rivendell bars) is the width; I've learned over many years that I just
don't like bars much wider than 46 cm, shorter stems or not.

But it remains on my "definitely maybe" list.

On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 10:05 AM Wesley  wrote:

> I have an Albastache on an old road bike frame, and an albatross on an old
> MTB all-purpose tank. The albastache is great! compared to the albatross,
> it is more comfortable to grab the curve because it conforms to a natural
> arm posture with the pinky lower than the index (which is opposite to the
> rise on the albatross.) The albastache lacks an equivalent position to the
> drops on a drop bar, but over the years I've found that I never get into
> the drops, anyway. If that doesn't bother you and if your body is like
> mine, then you'll find that the positions it does have are more comfortable
> than their drop-bar equivalents.
> -W
>
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 6:30:40 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I entirely agree that position or fit generally is the most important
>> thing in bike comfort and riding efficiently (yes, comfort is relative; but
>> even a pro will ride faster if he is more comfortable than if he is more
>> uncomfortable, and bad fit is probably the worst thing for comfort), and I
>> agree entirely too that the entire virtue of drop bars is that they offer
>> many different positions for comfort (yes, and efficiency, but believe me,
>> tucked into the hooks against a 25 mph headwind in a 70-something fixed
>> gear is a hell of a lot more comfortable than trying to buck that wind
>> while sitting upright).
>>
>> But!! Tell me if I am right or wrong: I thought that the entire
>> smorgasbord of the many different Rivendell upright models came about
>> precisely to give more comfortable upright riding with multiple hand
>> positions -- isn't this right?
>>
>> I've not used any non-drop Riv bar since the old Priest and original
>> edition Moustache bars, but I have been tempted to try an Albastache
>> precisely because **I thought** that this was an improvement in hand
>> positions and therefore comfort over the old Albatross and Moustache bars.
>>
>> Anyone?
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM George Schick  wrote:
>>
>>>  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly underscores in his very
>>> accurate post above about the multi-position availability that the road
>>> bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars simply cannot.
>>>
>> --
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> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Corwin Zechar]

At the outset, I will say that I agree with pretty much everything said so 
far in this thread. I heartily agree with RIDE WHAT YOU LIKE. I will also 
say that I hate riding upright. I have the interesting situation in that I 
captain two tandems every week - once a week for Charlie Cunningham and a 
few times a week for my wife.

Both Charlie and my wife are disabled - each in different ways. My tandem 
sports Albastache bars "slammed". Charlie and Jacquie's tandem sports Bosco 
Bull Moose bars "up high". Every time Charlie and I go out, my backside 
aches. Every time my wife and I go out? Bliss. Saddles? You ask... 
Charlie's tandem has a Brooks C17. Mine has a Fizik Aliante. I've tried 
lots of saddles. Wide ones, narrow ones, soft cushy ones, hard ones, etc. 
The wide ones chafe my thighs. The resulting sores are worse than a sore 
bottom. The saddles I like best are Fizik Aliante and Berthoud Galibier.

Point #1 is: Tolerating others is easy - once you find some common ground. 
Charlie LOVES chocolate ice cream. And Charlie is a Berkeley trained 
engineer who geeks out over fascinating designs. I provide both for him and 
we get along famously. [Charlie and I happen to be rather close in other 
aspects too - so not much of a stretch for me or him]. But it's easy to 
bond with lots of people over this kind of stuff if you focus on 
similarities instead of differences.

Point #2 is: About thirteen years ago, I discovered when riding my drop 
bars, I spend 99% of the time on the top - straight section, hoods, ramps, 
etc. Almost never in the drops or hooks. So I tried Mustache bars. What a 
revelation. Then I ordered our second tandem (a Hubbuhubbuh) for my wife. 
No Mustache bars to be found. Tried the Albastache bars and loved them too. 
So if you pay attention to what you like, you may get some insight into 
related preferences as well.

YMMV.


Corwin

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 9:05:33 AM UTC-7 Wesley wrote:

> I have an Albastache on an old road bike frame, and an albatross on an old 
> MTB all-purpose tank. The albastache is great! compared to the albatross, 
> it is more comfortable to grab the curve because it conforms to a natural 
> arm posture with the pinky lower than the index (which is opposite to the 
> rise on the albatross.) The albastache lacks an equivalent position to the 
> drops on a drop bar, but over the years I've found that I never get into 
> the drops, anyway. If that doesn't bother you and if your body is like 
> mine, then you'll find that the positions it does have are more comfortable 
> than their drop-bar equivalents.
> -W
>
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 6:30:40 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I entirely agree that position or fit generally is the most important 
>> thing in bike comfort and riding efficiently (yes, comfort is relative; but 
>> even a pro will ride faster if he is more comfortable than if he is more 
>> uncomfortable, and bad fit is probably the worst thing for comfort), and I 
>> agree entirely too that the entire virtue of drop bars is that they offer 
>> many different positions for comfort (yes, and efficiency, but believe me, 
>> tucked into the hooks against a 25 mph headwind in a 70-something fixed 
>> gear is a hell of a lot more comfortable than trying to buck that wind 
>> while sitting upright). 
>>
>> But!! Tell me if I am right or wrong: I thought that the entire 
>> smorgasbord of the many different Rivendell upright models came about 
>> precisely to give more comfortable upright riding with multiple hand 
>> positions -- isn't this right?
>>
>> I've not used any non-drop Riv bar since the old Priest and original 
>> edition Moustache bars, but I have been tempted to try an Albastache 
>> precisely because **I thought** that this was an improvement in hand 
>> positions and therefore comfort over the old Albatross and Moustache bars. 
>>
>> Anyone?
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM George Schick  wrote:
>>
>>>  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly underscores in his very 
>>> accurate post above about the multi-position availability that the road 
>>> bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars simply cannot.
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Wesley]

I have an Albastache on an old road bike frame, and an albatross on an old 
MTB all-purpose tank. The albastache is great! compared to the albatross, 
it is more comfortable to grab the curve because it conforms to a natural 
arm posture with the pinky lower than the index (which is opposite to the 
rise on the albatross.) The albastache lacks an equivalent position to the 
drops on a drop bar, but over the years I've found that I never get into 
the drops, anyway. If that doesn't bother you and if your body is like 
mine, then you'll find that the positions it does have are more comfortable 
than their drop-bar equivalents.
-W

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 6:30:40 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I entirely agree that position or fit generally is the most important 
> thing in bike comfort and riding efficiently (yes, comfort is relative; but 
> even a pro will ride faster if he is more comfortable than if he is more 
> uncomfortable, and bad fit is probably the worst thing for comfort), and I 
> agree entirely too that the entire virtue of drop bars is that they offer 
> many different positions for comfort (yes, and efficiency, but believe me, 
> tucked into the hooks against a 25 mph headwind in a 70-something fixed 
> gear is a hell of a lot more comfortable than trying to buck that wind 
> while sitting upright). 
>
> But!! Tell me if I am right or wrong: I thought that the entire 
> smorgasbord of the many different Rivendell upright models came about 
> precisely to give more comfortable upright riding with multiple hand 
> positions -- isn't this right?
>
> I've not used any non-drop Riv bar since the old Priest and original 
> edition Moustache bars, but I have been tempted to try an Albastache 
> precisely because **I thought** that this was an improvement in hand 
> positions and therefore comfort over the old Albatross and Moustache bars. 
>
> Anyone?
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM George Schick  wrote:
>
>>  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly underscores in his very 
>> accurate post above about the multi-position availability that the road 
>> bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars simply cannot.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Patrick Moore]

I entirely agree that position or fit generally is the most important thing
in bike comfort and riding efficiently (yes, comfort is relative; but even
a pro will ride faster if he is more comfortable than if he is more
uncomfortable, and bad fit is probably the worst thing for comfort), and I
agree entirely too that the entire virtue of drop bars is that they offer
many different positions for comfort (yes, and efficiency, but believe me,
tucked into the hooks against a 25 mph headwind in a 70-something fixed
gear is a hell of a lot more comfortable than trying to buck that wind
while sitting upright).

But!! Tell me if I am right or wrong: I thought that the entire smorgasbord
of the many different Rivendell upright models came about precisely to give
more comfortable upright riding with multiple hand positions -- isn't this
right?

I've not used any non-drop Riv bar since the old Priest and original
edition Moustache bars, but I have been tempted to try an Albastache
precisely because **I thought** that this was an improvement in hand
positions and therefore comfort over the old Albatross and Moustache bars.

Anyone?

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM George Schick  wrote:

>  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly underscores in his very
> accurate post above about the multi-position availability that the road
> bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars simply cannot.
>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I recently rode an event where my Roadeo was the spectacle of the ride. My
leather seat and “giant” banana sack bag and “fat” 32 mm tires were so
unusual. My comment to them was that the Roadeo is my light bike! I climbed
faster than my buddies despite my “heavy” bike and dusted’em on the
downhills because my “fat” tires were way more stable on the bumpy roads.
We all had fun and no carbon frames cracked that day thankfully.

Toshi


On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 7:03 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Leah's bike is better and prettier and her position is superior and that's
> just the facts. In my opinion. Which is the correct one.
>
> Joe "just sayin, and I'm right" Bernard
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:37:59 PM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> Leah's bicycle is superior to the roadies bicycles. That is an opinion
>> but happens to be correct.  Thank you Marc for this thread as it highlights
>> the fact that you don't have to follow the crowd or group-think (pun
>> intended) to succeed. I suspect some other riders in Leah's group would
>> very much enjoy a Rivendell and Leah's courage to show up with such a
>> different bike and perform well gives them confidence to try it.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 9:00:27 PM UTC-4 amill...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I like club rides. Hanging with the A group is fun. Even getting dropped
>>> by the A group is fun. As long as you come back next week.
>>>
>>> My first Wednesday night ride I saw a guy on a white powder coated,
>>> fixed gear Jeunet. I thought that was the coolest.
>>>
>>> The next week I left my cannondale at home and rode my fixed RB-2. I got
>>> dropped. I rode it again the next week. I got dropped again. I rode it the
>>> next week and hung with them. It was awesome. Having a community is
>>> important.
>>>
>>> I think everyone should ride whatever they want. Riding should be fun
>>> and competition should be fun. Nothing wrong with it.
>>>
>>> As a side story, my petty officer used to call us Annie Oakley if we sat
>>> sideways at our watch console in the Navy. I’m wondering if Leah has some
>>> magical 90° crank that allows her to sit sideways (and if she’s a crack
>>> shot.)
>>>
>>> Comfort can be described in different ways. On my fillet brazed plus
>>> bike with Bosco bars and a brooks, I feel quite comfortable cruising with
>>> my kid in the Mac-ride. I do not feel comfortable trying to go fast.
>>>
>>> On my roadie Protovelo with drop bars, I feel quite comfortable going
>>> fast. I do not feel as comfortable with the kid on it.
>>>
>>> I want both of these bikes. I’m happy I have both of them. I don’t want
>>> cruiser bars on the proto or drop bars on the cruiser.
>>>
>>> I’m glad this list can support both. I’m glad Riv can support both.
>>> Rivendell is a part of the bicycle industry, and just like the industry
>>> they have to make new things and sell new ideas to stay afloat. In the 90s
>>> that was 28s and lugs and brooks. Now it’s long chainstays and Bosco bars.
>>> I’m glad they’ve done both.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Aaron in El Paso
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 28, 2022, at 18:42, Leah Peterson  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety”
>>> because I would love to answer you.
>>>
>>> “What’s the point?”
>>>
>>> Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the
>>> only one who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike
>>> community but feels unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try
>>> out their local club after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the
>>> whole point of my club ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I
>>> think it’s healthy for the local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy
>>> to spread Grant’s influence; it’s a healthy way to ride a bike.
>>>
>>> I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how
>>> I would be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one.
>>> What if I was unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is
>>> supremely comfortable, gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my
>>> Platypus in a club ride, I don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out,
>>> you *can* ride your Rivendell in a club (Marc has done it for years) and
>>> you are not automatically slow and unwelcome just because you do. All but
>>> the fastest riders are good to me (the 18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride
>>> with nice people on carbon bikes and we really enjoy each other. And now
>>> several of them have expressed interest in getting their own Rivendells.
>>>
>>> “But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to
>>> theirs?”
>>>
>>> Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike
>>> that allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and
>>> keep pace with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why
>>> I’m riding a Platypus and not a Trek.
>>>
>>> I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Joe Bernard]

Leah's bike is better and prettier and her position is superior and that's 
just the facts. In my opinion. Which is the correct one. 

Joe "just sayin, and I'm right" Bernard 

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:37:59 PM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:

> Leah's bicycle is superior to the roadies bicycles. That is an opinion but 
> happens to be correct.  Thank you Marc for this thread as it highlights the 
> fact that you don't have to follow the crowd or group-think (pun intended) 
> to succeed. I suspect some other riders in Leah's group would very much 
> enjoy a Rivendell and Leah's courage to show up with such a different bike 
> and perform well gives them confidence to try it. 
> Doug
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 9:00:27 PM UTC-4 amill...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I like club rides. Hanging with the A group is fun. Even getting dropped 
>> by the A group is fun. As long as you come back next week.
>>
>> My first Wednesday night ride I saw a guy on a white powder coated, fixed 
>> gear Jeunet. I thought that was the coolest. 
>>
>> The next week I left my cannondale at home and rode my fixed RB-2. I got 
>> dropped. I rode it again the next week. I got dropped again. I rode it the 
>> next week and hung with them. It was awesome. Having a community is 
>> important. 
>>
>> I think everyone should ride whatever they want. Riding should be fun and 
>> competition should be fun. Nothing wrong with it. 
>>
>> As a side story, my petty officer used to call us Annie Oakley if we sat 
>> sideways at our watch console in the Navy. I’m wondering if Leah has some 
>> magical 90° crank that allows her to sit sideways (and if she’s a crack 
>> shot.)
>>
>> Comfort can be described in different ways. On my fillet brazed plus bike 
>> with Bosco bars and a brooks, I feel quite comfortable cruising with my kid 
>> in the Mac-ride. I do not feel comfortable trying to go fast.
>>
>> On my roadie Protovelo with drop bars, I feel quite comfortable going 
>> fast. I do not feel as comfortable with the kid on it.
>>
>> I want both of these bikes. I’m happy I have both of them. I don’t want 
>> cruiser bars on the proto or drop bars on the cruiser. 
>>
>> I’m glad this list can support both. I’m glad Riv can support both. 
>> Rivendell is a part of the bicycle industry, and just like the industry 
>> they have to make new things and sell new ideas to stay afloat. In the 90s 
>> that was 28s and lugs and brooks. Now it’s long chainstays and Bosco bars. 
>> I’m glad they’ve done both. 
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Aaron in El Paso 
>>
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2022, at 18:42, Leah Peterson  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> 
>> Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety” 
>> because I would love to answer you.
>>
>> “What’s the point?”
>>
>> Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the 
>> only one who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike 
>> community but feels unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try 
>> out their local club after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the 
>> whole point of my club ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I 
>> think it’s healthy for the local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy 
>> to spread Grant’s influence; it’s a healthy way to ride a bike. 
>>
>> I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how I 
>> would be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one. 
>> What if I was unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is 
>> supremely comfortable, gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my 
>> Platypus in a club ride, I don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out, 
>> you *can* ride your Rivendell in a club (Marc has done it for years) and 
>> you are not automatically slow and unwelcome just because you do. All but 
>> the fastest riders are good to me (the 18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride 
>> with nice people on carbon bikes and we really enjoy each other. And now 
>> several of them have expressed interest in getting their own Rivendells. 
>>
>> “But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to 
>> theirs?” 
>>
>> Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike that 
>> allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and keep 
>> pace with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why I’m 
>> riding a Platypus and not a Trek.
>>
>> I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior to mine. That’s ok 
>> with me. And tomorrow I’ll be riding with them and we’ll have a great time. 
>> But I’ll be more comfortable and riding a prettier bike.
>>
>> Leah
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2022, at 7:08 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>
>> "But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
>> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based 
>> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have 
>> and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Doug H.]

Leah's bicycle is superior to the roadies bicycles. That is an opinion but 
happens to be correct.  Thank you Marc for this thread as it highlights the 
fact that you don't have to follow the crowd or group-think (pun intended) 
to succeed. I suspect some other riders in Leah's group would very much 
enjoy a Rivendell and Leah's courage to show up with such a different bike 
and perform well gives them confidence to try it. 
Doug

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 9:00:27 PM UTC-4 amill...@gmail.com wrote:

> I like club rides. Hanging with the A group is fun. Even getting dropped 
> by the A group is fun. As long as you come back next week.
>
> My first Wednesday night ride I saw a guy on a white powder coated, fixed 
> gear Jeunet. I thought that was the coolest. 
>
> The next week I left my cannondale at home and rode my fixed RB-2. I got 
> dropped. I rode it again the next week. I got dropped again. I rode it the 
> next week and hung with them. It was awesome. Having a community is 
> important. 
>
> I think everyone should ride whatever they want. Riding should be fun and 
> competition should be fun. Nothing wrong with it. 
>
> As a side story, my petty officer used to call us Annie Oakley if we sat 
> sideways at our watch console in the Navy. I’m wondering if Leah has some 
> magical 90° crank that allows her to sit sideways (and if she’s a crack 
> shot.)
>
> Comfort can be described in different ways. On my fillet brazed plus bike 
> with Bosco bars and a brooks, I feel quite comfortable cruising with my kid 
> in the Mac-ride. I do not feel comfortable trying to go fast.
>
> On my roadie Protovelo with drop bars, I feel quite comfortable going 
> fast. I do not feel as comfortable with the kid on it.
>
> I want both of these bikes. I’m happy I have both of them. I don’t want 
> cruiser bars on the proto or drop bars on the cruiser. 
>
> I’m glad this list can support both. I’m glad Riv can support both. 
> Rivendell is a part of the bicycle industry, and just like the industry 
> they have to make new things and sell new ideas to stay afloat. In the 90s 
> that was 28s and lugs and brooks. Now it’s long chainstays and Bosco bars. 
> I’m glad they’ve done both. 
>
> Best,
>
> Aaron in El Paso 
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2022, at 18:42, Leah Peterson  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety” 
> because I would love to answer you.
>
> “What’s the point?”
>
> Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the 
> only one who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike 
> community but feels unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try 
> out their local club after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the 
> whole point of my club ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I 
> think it’s healthy for the local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy 
> to spread Grant’s influence; it’s a healthy way to ride a bike. 
>
> I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how I 
> would be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one. 
> What if I was unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is supremely 
> comfortable, gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my Platypus 
> in a club ride, I don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out, you *can* 
> ride your Rivendell in a club (Marc has done it for years) and you are not 
> automatically slow and unwelcome just because you do. All but the fastest 
> riders are good to me (the 18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride with nice 
> people on carbon bikes and we really enjoy each other. And now several of 
> them have expressed interest in getting their own Rivendells. 
>
> “But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to 
> theirs?” 
>
> Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike that 
> allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and keep 
> pace with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why I’m 
> riding a Platypus and not a Trek.
>
> I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior to mine. That’s ok 
> with me. And tomorrow I’ll be riding with them and we’ll have a great time. 
> But I’ll be more comfortable and riding a prettier bike.
>
> Leah
>
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2022, at 7:08 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> "But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based 
> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have 
> and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative 
> either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to 
> say that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to 
> stop and shake my head a bit.  Again, as I replied to Bernard, what's the 
> point?  If you can ride with the "roadies" as you call them and keep up 
> with them, fine.  But 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Ray Varella]

Here’s my one and only experience encountering a group of local club 
riders. 
Years ago (20) I was out on a Saturday morning ride on my Rivendell 
Allrounder, upright bars. 
I pulled up behind a group of road bike riders at a stoplight. 
I said “ I thought I was the only one in this city that rode a bike who 
hadn’t lost his license because of a DUI. 
One of the guys said “anyone riding a Rivendell is welcome with us anytime. 

Ride what you like, any day on any bike is time well spent. 

Ray “several rides on the Toei this week, plus a super smooth Clem ride”

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:00:27 PM UTC-7 amill...@gmail.com wrote:

> I like club rides. Hanging with the A group is fun. Even getting dropped 
> by the A group is fun. As long as you come back next week.
>
> My first Wednesday night ride I saw a guy on a white powder coated, fixed 
> gear Jeunet. I thought that was the coolest. 
>
> The next week I left my cannondale at home and rode my fixed RB-2. I got 
> dropped. I rode it again the next week. I got dropped again. I rode it the 
> next week and hung with them. It was awesome. Having a community is 
> important. 
>
> I think everyone should ride whatever they want. Riding should be fun and 
> competition should be fun. Nothing wrong with it. 
>
> As a side story, my petty officer used to call us Annie Oakley if we sat 
> sideways at our watch console in the Navy. I’m wondering if Leah has some 
> magical 90° crank that allows her to sit sideways (and if she’s a crack 
> shot.)
>
> Comfort can be described in different ways. On my fillet brazed plus bike 
> with Bosco bars and a brooks, I feel quite comfortable cruising with my kid 
> in the Mac-ride. I do not feel comfortable trying to go fast.
>
> On my roadie Protovelo with drop bars, I feel quite comfortable going 
> fast. I do not feel as comfortable with the kid on it.
>
> I want both of these bikes. I’m happy I have both of them. I don’t want 
> cruiser bars on the proto or drop bars on the cruiser. 
>
> I’m glad this list can support both. I’m glad Riv can support both. 
> Rivendell is a part of the bicycle industry, and just like the industry 
> they have to make new things and sell new ideas to stay afloat. In the 90s 
> that was 28s and lugs and brooks. Now it’s long chainstays and Bosco bars. 
> I’m glad they’ve done both. 
>
> Best,
>
> Aaron in El Paso 
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2022, at 18:42, Leah Peterson  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety” 
> because I would love to answer you.
>
> “What’s the point?”
>
> Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the 
> only one who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike 
> community but feels unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try 
> out their local club after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the 
> whole point of my club ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I 
> think it’s healthy for the local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy 
> to spread Grant’s influence; it’s a healthy way to ride a bike. 
>
> I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how I 
> would be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one. 
> What if I was unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is supremely 
> comfortable, gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my Platypus 
> in a club ride, I don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out, you *can* 
> ride your Rivendell in a club (Marc has done it for years) and you are not 
> automatically slow and unwelcome just because you do. All but the fastest 
> riders are good to me (the 18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride with nice 
> people on carbon bikes and we really enjoy each other. And now several of 
> them have expressed interest in getting their own Rivendells. 
>
> “But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to 
> theirs?” 
>
> Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike that 
> allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and keep 
> pace with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why I’m 
> riding a Platypus and not a Trek.
>
> I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior to mine. That’s ok 
> with me. And tomorrow I’ll be riding with them and we’ll have a great time. 
> But I’ll be more comfortable and riding a prettier bike.
>
> Leah
>
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2022, at 7:08 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> "But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based 
> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have 
> and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative 
> either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to 
> say that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to 
> stop and shake my head a bit.  Again, as 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[amillhench]

I like club rides. Hanging with the A group is fun. Even getting dropped by the 
A group is fun. As long as you come back next week.

My first Wednesday night ride I saw a guy on a white powder coated, fixed gear 
Jeunet. I thought that was the coolest. 

The next week I left my cannondale at home and rode my fixed RB-2. I got 
dropped. I rode it again the next week. I got dropped again. I rode it the next 
week and hung with them. It was awesome. Having a community is important. 

I think everyone should ride whatever they want. Riding should be fun and 
competition should be fun. Nothing wrong with it. 

As a side story, my petty officer used to call us Annie Oakley if we sat 
sideways at our watch console in the Navy. I’m wondering if Leah has some 
magical 90° crank that allows her to sit sideways (and if she’s a crack shot.)

Comfort can be described in different ways. On my fillet brazed plus bike with 
Bosco bars and a brooks, I feel quite comfortable cruising with my kid in the 
Mac-ride. I do not feel comfortable trying to go fast.

On my roadie Protovelo with drop bars, I feel quite comfortable going fast. I 
do not feel as comfortable with the kid on it.

I want both of these bikes. I’m happy I have both of them. I don’t want cruiser 
bars on the proto or drop bars on the cruiser. 

I’m glad this list can support both. I’m glad Riv can support both. Rivendell 
is a part of the bicycle industry, and just like the industry they have to make 
new things and sell new ideas to stay afloat. In the 90s that was 28s and lugs 
and brooks. Now it’s long chainstays and Bosco bars. I’m glad they’ve done 
both. 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 


On Jul 28, 2022, at 18:42, Leah Peterson  wrote:



Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety” because 
I would love to answer you.

“What’s the point?”

Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the only one 
who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike community but feels 
unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try out their local club 
after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the whole point of my club 
ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I think it’s healthy for the 
local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy to spread Grant’s influence; 
it’s a healthy way to ride a bike. 

I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how I would 
be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one. What if I was 
unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is supremely comfortable, 
gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my Platypus in a club ride, I 
don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out, you *can* ride your Rivendell in 
a club (Marc has done it for years) and you are not automatically slow and 
unwelcome just because you do. All but the fastest riders are good to me (the 
18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride with nice people on carbon bikes and we really 
enjoy each other. And now several of them have expressed interest in getting 
their own Rivendells. 

“But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to theirs?” 

Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike that 
allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and keep pace 
with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why I’m riding a 
Platypus and not a Trek.

I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior to mine. That’s ok with me. 
And tomorrow I’ll be riding with them and we’ll have a great time. But I’ll be 
more comfortable and riding a prettier bike.

Leah



> On Jul 28, 2022, at 7:08 PM, George Schick  wrote:
> 
> "But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based 
> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have 
> and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative 
> either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to say 
> that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to stop 
> and shake my head a bit.  Again, as I replied to Bernard, what's the point?  
> If you can ride with the "roadies" as you call them and keep up with them, 
> fine.  But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to 
> theirs?  I hardly think so - it's all a matter or riding position and what it 
> does (or is doing) to your anatomy.  It could make no difference or it could 
> be harmful in the long run.  After all, even Grant has said that certain 
> bikes aren't intended to be use in club rides.  And you can, if you wish, 
> employ Grant's "maybe so, maybe not" rhetoric about one versus the other, but 
> it makes one wonder why he bothered to include that "Raise Dat Stem" (which 
> was aimed at both people who ride at too high a position and what it does to 
> various leg muscles versus those who 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Leah Peterson]

Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety” because 
I would love to answer you.

“What’s the point?”

Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the only one 
who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike community but feels 
unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try out their local club 
after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the whole point of my club 
ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I think it’s healthy for the 
local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy to spread Grant’s influence; 
it’s a healthy way to ride a bike. 

I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how I would 
be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one. What if I was 
unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is supremely comfortable, 
gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my Platypus in a club ride, I 
don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out, you *can* ride your Rivendell in 
a club (Marc has done it for years) and you are not automatically slow and 
unwelcome just because you do. All but the fastest riders are good to me (the 
18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride with nice people on carbon bikes and we really 
enjoy each other. And now several of them have expressed interest in getting 
their own Rivendells. 

“But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to theirs?” 

Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike that 
allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and keep pace 
with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why I’m riding a 
Platypus and not a Trek.

I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior to mine. That’s ok with me. 
And tomorrow I’ll be riding with them and we’ll have a great time. But I’ll be 
more comfortable and riding a prettier bike.

Leah



> On Jul 28, 2022, at 7:08 PM, George Schick  wrote:
> "But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based 
> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have 
> and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative 
> either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to say 
> that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to stop 
> and shake my head a bit.  Again, as I replied to Bernard, what's the point?  
> If you can ride with the "roadies" as you call them and keep up with them, 
> fine.  But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to 
> theirs?  I hardly think so - it's all a matter or riding position and what it 
> does (or is doing) to your anatomy.  It could make no difference or it could 
> be harmful in the long run.  After all, even Grant has said that certain 
> bikes aren't intended to be use in club rides.  And you can, if you wish, 
> employ Grant's "maybe so, maybe not" rhetoric about one versus the other, but 
> it makes one wonder why he bothered to include that "Raise Dat Stem" (which 
> was aimed at both people who ride at too high a position and what it does to 
> various leg muscles versus those who ride at way too low a position (think 
> excessively low drop bars)) in one of his Readers.  Have you read it??  And 
> to Joe's late arriving comment, yeah you have proved you can do it, but once 
> again, what's the point?  I can see that I'm creeping closer to the crotchety 
> Steve Placinar commentary level so I'll cease and desist.  Meanwhile, ya'll 
> have a great time on your rides and enjoy the company of those who differ a 
> bit.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 5:27:58 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
>> George,
>> Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your comments 
>> bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The point of my 
>> club ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to conform to the 
>> preconceived notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that if you don’t 
>> look the part and ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 
>> 
>> For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from 
>> the time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you 
>> can’t hang with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, 
>> flat pedals, blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m 
>> not saying drop bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can 
>> ride Billie Bars and still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars and 
>> carbon bikes; the point is to show that there is room for variety in club 
>> rides. It might even be healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully 
>> dogmatic, and even condescending (though most of my fellow riders are kind 
>> souls). I would hope my exploits might be a bit refreshing.
>> 
>> But to your point, 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Joe Bernard]

"And to Joe's late arriving comment, yeah you have proved you can do it, 
but once again, what's the point?"

For the record my comment was exactly on time. 

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Leah, 
> Your exploits are certainly refreshing to me. Those dropbar/carbon/Lycra 
> group rides always gave me a closed "you can't ride with us, stay away" 
> vibe; I'm still not quite motivated to DO it on my Billie Bar long 
> wheelbase mixte-ish Riv - Joe Bernard, Slow Lone Wolf - but you've shown me 
> it's possible! I think this a good thing. 
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> George,
>> Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your 
>> comments bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The 
>> point of my club ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to 
>> conform to the preconceived notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that 
>> if you don’t look the part and ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 
>>
>> For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from 
>> the time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you 
>> can’t hang with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, 
>> flat pedals, blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m 
>> not saying drop bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can 
>> ride Billie Bars and still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars 
>> and carbon bikes; the point is to show that there is room for variety in 
>> club rides. It might even be healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully 
>> dogmatic, and even condescending (though most of my fellow riders are kind 
>> souls). I would hope my exploits might be a bit refreshing.
>>
>> But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
>> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheelbased 
>> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say.
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2022, at 6:06 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
>> lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
>> elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
>> bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the 
>> road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not 
>> that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with 
>> drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike 
>> with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the 
>> club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything 
>> You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off 
>> comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise 
>> physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how 
>>> the young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar 
>>> height and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous 
>>> (which she explained) and shifted a lot. 
>>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>>
 I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place 
 in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
 from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
 her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
 along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
 riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
 bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
 virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
 gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
 crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
 couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
 and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
 water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
 sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon 
 and 
 I could easily see why.

 Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long 
 legs, she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one 
 point 
 I asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said 
 no, 
 so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
 bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Joe Bernard]

"

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Leah, 
> Your exploits are certainly refreshing to me. Those dropbar/carbon/Lycra 
> group rides always gave me a closed "you can't ride with us, stay away" 
> vibe; I'm still not quite motivated to DO it on my Billie Bar long 
> wheelbase mixte-ish Riv - Joe Bernard, Slow Lone Wolf - but you've shown me 
> it's possible! I think this a good thing. 
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> George,
>> Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your 
>> comments bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The 
>> point of my club ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to 
>> conform to the preconceived notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that 
>> if you don’t look the part and ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 
>>
>> For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from 
>> the time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you 
>> can’t hang with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, 
>> flat pedals, blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m 
>> not saying drop bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can 
>> ride Billie Bars and still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars 
>> and carbon bikes; the point is to show that there is room for variety in 
>> club rides. It might even be healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully 
>> dogmatic, and even condescending (though most of my fellow riders are kind 
>> souls). I would hope my exploits might be a bit refreshing.
>>
>> But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
>> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheelbased 
>> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say.
>>
>> On Jul 28, 2022, at 6:06 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
>> lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
>> elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
>> bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the 
>> road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not 
>> that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with 
>> drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike 
>> with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the 
>> club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything 
>> You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off 
>> comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise 
>> physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how 
>>> the young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar 
>>> height and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous 
>>> (which she explained) and shifted a lot. 
>>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>>
 I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place 
 in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
 from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
 her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
 along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
 riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
 bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
 virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
 gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
 crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
 couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
 and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
 water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
 sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon 
 and 
 I could easily see why.

 Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long 
 legs, she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one 
 point 
 I asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said 
 no, 
 so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
 bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
 remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
 "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[George Schick]

"But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based 
bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have 
and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative 
either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to 
say that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to 
stop and shake my head a bit.  Again, as I replied to Bernard, what's the 
point?  If you can ride with the "roadies" as you call them and keep up 
with them, fine.  But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase 
superior to theirs?  I hardly think so - it's all a matter or riding 
position and what it does (or is doing) to your anatomy.  It could make no 
difference or it could be harmful in the long run.  After all, even Grant 
has said that certain bikes aren't intended to be use in club rides.  And 
you can, if you wish, employ Grant's "maybe so, maybe not" rhetoric about 
one versus the other, but it makes one wonder why he bothered to include 
that "Raise Dat Stem" (which was aimed at both people who ride at too high 
a position and what it does to various leg muscles versus those who ride at 
way too low a position (think excessively low drop bars)) in one of his 
Readers.  Have you read it??  And to Joe's late arriving comment, yeah you 
have proved you can do it, but once again, what's the point?  I can see 
that I'm creeping closer to the crotchety Steve Placinar commentary level 
so I'll cease and desist.  Meanwhile, ya'll have a great time on your rides 
and enjoy the company of those who differ a bit.



On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 5:27:58 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> George,
> Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your 
> comments bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The 
> point of my club ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to 
> conform to the preconceived notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that 
> if you don’t look the part and ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 
>
> For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from 
> the time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you 
> can’t hang with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, 
> flat pedals, blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m 
> not saying drop bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can 
> ride Billie Bars and still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars 
> and carbon bikes; the point is to show that there is room for variety in 
> club rides. It might even be healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully 
> dogmatic, and even condescending (though most of my fellow riders are kind 
> souls). I would hope my exploits might be a bit refreshing.
>
> But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheelbased 
> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say.
>
> On Jul 28, 2022, at 6:06 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
> lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
> elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
> bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the 
> road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not 
> that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with 
> drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike 
> with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the 
> club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything 
> You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off 
> comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise 
> physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?
>
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the 
>> young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height 
>> and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she 
>> explained) and shifted a lot. 
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place 
>>> in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
>>> from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
>>> her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
>>> along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
>>> riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
>>> 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Joe Bernard]

Leah, 
Your exploits are certainly refreshing to me. Those dropbar/carbon/Lycra 
group rides always gave me a closed "you can't ride with us, stay away" 
vibe; I'm still not quite motivated to DO it on my Billie Bar long 
wheelbase mixte-ish Riv - Joe Bernard, Slow Lone Wolf - but you've shown me 
it's possible! I think this a good thing. 

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:27:58 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> George,
> Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your 
> comments bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The 
> point of my club ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to 
> conform to the preconceived notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that 
> if you don’t look the part and ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 
>
> For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from 
> the time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you 
> can’t hang with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, 
> flat pedals, blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m 
> not saying drop bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can 
> ride Billie Bars and still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars 
> and carbon bikes; the point is to show that there is room for variety in 
> club rides. It might even be healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully 
> dogmatic, and even condescending (though most of my fellow riders are kind 
> souls). I would hope my exploits might be a bit refreshing.
>
> But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can 
> honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheelbased 
> bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say.
>
> On Jul 28, 2022, at 6:06 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
> lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
> elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
> bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the 
> road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not 
> that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with 
> drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike 
> with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the 
> club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything 
> You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off 
> comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise 
> physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?
>
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the 
>> young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height 
>> and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she 
>> explained) and shifted a lot. 
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place 
>>> in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
>>> from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
>>> her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
>>> along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
>>> riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
>>> bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
>>> virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
>>> gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
>>> crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
>>> couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
>>> and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
>>> water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
>>> sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and 
>>> I could easily see why.
>>>
>>> Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long 
>>> legs, she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point 
>>> I asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, 
>>> so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
>>> bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
>>> remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
>>> "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride 
>>> rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into 
>>> that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm 
>>> sorry 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Leah Peterson]

George,
Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your comments 
bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The point of my club 
ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to conform to the preconceived 
notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that if you don’t look the part and 
ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 

For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from the 
time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you can’t hang 
with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, flat pedals, 
blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m not saying drop 
bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can ride Billie Bars and 
still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars and carbon bikes; the point 
is to show that there is room for variety in club rides. It might even be 
healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully dogmatic, and even condescending 
(though most of my fellow riders are kind souls). I would hope my exploits 
might be a bit refreshing.

But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can honestly say 
which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheelbased bike, but I’ve 
never ridden one, so I can’t say.

> On Jul 28, 2022, at 6:06 PM, George Schick  wrote:
> Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
> lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
> elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
> bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the road 
> bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not that any 
> money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with drop bars 
> would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike with upright 
> bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the club ride 
> scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything You Can Do 
> (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off comparison.  
> Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise physiologist Bob 
> Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?
> 
> 
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the 
>> young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height 
>> and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she 
>> explained) and shifted a lot. 
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>> I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place in 
>>> Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
>>> from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
>>> her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
>>> along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
>>> riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
>>> bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
>>> virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
>>> gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
>>> crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
>>> couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
>>> and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
>>> water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one sip. 
>>>  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and I 
>>> could easily see why.
>>> 
>>> Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long legs, 
>>> she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point I 
>>> asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, 
>>> so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
>>> bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
>>> remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
>>> "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride 
>>> rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into 
>>> that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm 
>>> sorry about this for you platform pedaling folks) can really only be 
>>> perfected with some type of pedal retention.  So, on we rode to the end of 
>>> the route, never giving her any advice one way or another about riding 
>>> position, constant shifting, or pedal retention (I learned the hard way not 
>>> to do that with anyone).  As strong a rider as she was, I always hoped that 
>>> she developed a better riding style as time went along.
>>> 
>>> The whole point of 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Joe Bernard]

Annie Oakley?? Well ok then. 

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:06:11 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:

> Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
> lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
> elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
> bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the 
> road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not 
> that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with 
> drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike 
> with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the 
> club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything 
> You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off 
> comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise 
> physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?
>
>
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the 
>> young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height 
>> and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she 
>> explained) and shifted a lot. 
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place 
>>> in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
>>> from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
>>> her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
>>> along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
>>> riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
>>> bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
>>> virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
>>> gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
>>> crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
>>> couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
>>> and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
>>> water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
>>> sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and 
>>> I could easily see why.
>>>
>>> Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long 
>>> legs, she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point 
>>> I asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, 
>>> so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
>>> bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
>>> remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
>>> "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride 
>>> rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into 
>>> that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm 
>>> sorry about this for you platform pedaling folks) can really only be 
>>> perfected with some type of pedal retention.  So, on we rode to the end of 
>>> the route, never giving her any advice one way or another about riding 
>>> position, constant shifting, or pedal retention (I learned the hard way not 
>>> to do that with anyone).  As strong a rider as she was, I always hoped that 
>>> she developed a better riding style as time went along.
>>>
>>> The whole point of mentioning this is to underscore that position, 
>>> position, position is of ultimate importance.  But not the position you 
>>> have to buy into at a shop with a Fit-Kit.  Having encountered Grant and 
>>> his Readers in the mid-90's I soon began to understand that in a different 
>>> way that I had previously and, though I still used road drop bars, I 
>>> adopted a much higher bar height as a result.  After all, I was aging and 
>>> was becoming much less flexible that I used to be.  If you want ride higher 
>>> bars in a more upright position, good for you.  But don't automatically 
>>> discount those who use road bars positioned in a way that supports their 
>>> riding style; consider instead this article from Page 28 of an old reader 
>>> http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR04.pdf and at least give it the benefit 
>>> of the doubt.  The author is, after all a physical therapist and does have 
>>> some worthy credentials.  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly 
>>> underscores in his very accurate post above about the multi-position 
>>> availability that the road bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars 
>>> simply cannot.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:58:04 AM UTC-5 amill...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I’ve 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[George Schick]

Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too 
lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply 
elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road 
bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the 
road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not 
that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with 
drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike 
with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the 
club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything 
You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off 
comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise 
physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?


On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:21:11 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the 
> young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height 
> and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she 
> explained) and shifted a lot. 
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>
>> I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place 
>> in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
>> from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
>> her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
>> along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
>> riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
>> bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
>> virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
>> gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
>> crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
>> couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
>> and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
>> water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
>> sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and 
>> I could easily see why.
>>
>> Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long legs, 
>> she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point I 
>> asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, 
>> so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
>> bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
>> remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
>> "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride 
>> rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into 
>> that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm 
>> sorry about this for you platform pedaling folks) can really only be 
>> perfected with some type of pedal retention.  So, on we rode to the end of 
>> the route, never giving her any advice one way or another about riding 
>> position, constant shifting, or pedal retention (I learned the hard way not 
>> to do that with anyone).  As strong a rider as she was, I always hoped that 
>> she developed a better riding style as time went along.
>>
>> The whole point of mentioning this is to underscore that position, 
>> position, position is of ultimate importance.  But not the position you 
>> have to buy into at a shop with a Fit-Kit.  Having encountered Grant and 
>> his Readers in the mid-90's I soon began to understand that in a different 
>> way that I had previously and, though I still used road drop bars, I 
>> adopted a much higher bar height as a result.  After all, I was aging and 
>> was becoming much less flexible that I used to be.  If you want ride higher 
>> bars in a more upright position, good for you.  But don't automatically 
>> discount those who use road bars positioned in a way that supports their 
>> riding style; consider instead this article from Page 28 of an old reader 
>> http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR04.pdf and at least give it the benefit 
>> of the doubt.  The author is, after all a physical therapist and does have 
>> some worthy credentials.  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly 
>> underscores in his very accurate post above about the multi-position 
>> availability that the road bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars 
>> simply cannot.
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:58:04 AM UTC-5 amill...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve got Boscos, Toscos, Rene Herse Maes os, and Some HWY onecos. I’ve 
>>> ridden albatross, bull horns, fun3s, high risers, etc.
>>>
>>> They’re great. Having strong feelings about a 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Joe Bernard]

I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the 
young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height 
and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she 
explained) and shifted a lot. 
On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-7 George Schick wrote:

> I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place in 
> Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
> from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
> her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
> along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
> riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
> bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
> virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
> gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
> crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
> couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
> and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
> water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
> sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and 
> I could easily see why.
>
> Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long legs, 
> she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point I 
> asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, 
> so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
> bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
> remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
> "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride 
> rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into 
> that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm 
> sorry about this for you platform pedaling folks) can really only be 
> perfected with some type of pedal retention.  So, on we rode to the end of 
> the route, never giving her any advice one way or another about riding 
> position, constant shifting, or pedal retention (I learned the hard way not 
> to do that with anyone).  As strong a rider as she was, I always hoped that 
> she developed a better riding style as time went along.
>
> The whole point of mentioning this is to underscore that position, 
> position, position is of ultimate importance.  But not the position you 
> have to buy into at a shop with a Fit-Kit.  Having encountered Grant and 
> his Readers in the mid-90's I soon began to understand that in a different 
> way that I had previously and, though I still used road drop bars, I 
> adopted a much higher bar height as a result.  After all, I was aging and 
> was becoming much less flexible that I used to be.  If you want ride higher 
> bars in a more upright position, good for you.  But don't automatically 
> discount those who use road bars positioned in a way that supports their 
> riding style; consider instead this article from Page 28 of an old reader 
> http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR04.pdf and at least give it the benefit of 
> the doubt.  The author is, after all a physical therapist and does have 
> some worthy credentials.  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly 
> underscores in his very accurate post above about the multi-position 
> availability that the road bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars 
> simply cannot.
>
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:58:04 AM UTC-5 amill...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I’ve got Boscos, Toscos, Rene Herse Maes os, and Some HWY onecos. I’ve 
>> ridden albatross, bull horns, fun3s, high risers, etc.
>>
>> They’re great. Having strong feelings about a handlebar seems strange to 
>> me. I like the multiple positions on a drop bar as much as I like the 
>> upright position on albatross’.
>>
>> Just like cruising can be as much or less fun as a group ride. 
>>
>> I admire Leah for not letting preconceived notions prevent her from 
>> trying new things. I’ve been shunned by roadies at group rides and hipsters 
>> at critical mass. Laugh it off and eat some tacos.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Aaron in El Paso
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2022, at 08:13, Tom Wyland  wrote:
>>
>> OK, I used to be all against the idea of riding in circles for sport.  
>> I'm all about riding to get somewhere or do something, not just riding 
>> loops.  Then Covid lockdown hit  and I didn't bike to work, there was 
>> nothing open, and I didn't want to be exercising my lungs in the grocery 
>> store after riding there.  So I found myself riding in circles.  So I guess 
>> it's not that dumb after all. I just wish people would take a relaxing ride 
>> once and a while instead of sprinting everywhere.
>>
>> I'm 100% 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[George Schick]

I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place in 
Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated 
from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join 
her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode 
along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her 
riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date 
bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by 
virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one 
gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had 
crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She 
couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle 
and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like 
water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one 
sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and 
I could easily see why.

Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long legs, 
she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point I 
asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, 
so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her 
bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she 
remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, 
"Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride 
rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into 
that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm 
sorry about this for you platform pedaling folks) can really only be 
perfected with some type of pedal retention.  So, on we rode to the end of 
the route, never giving her any advice one way or another about riding 
position, constant shifting, or pedal retention (I learned the hard way not 
to do that with anyone).  As strong a rider as she was, I always hoped that 
she developed a better riding style as time went along.

The whole point of mentioning this is to underscore that position, 
position, position is of ultimate importance.  But not the position you 
have to buy into at a shop with a Fit-Kit.  Having encountered Grant and 
his Readers in the mid-90's I soon began to understand that in a different 
way that I had previously and, though I still used road drop bars, I 
adopted a much higher bar height as a result.  After all, I was aging and 
was becoming much less flexible that I used to be.  If you want ride higher 
bars in a more upright position, good for you.  But don't automatically 
discount those who use road bars positioned in a way that supports their 
riding style; consider instead this article from Page 28 of an old 
reader http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR04.pdf and at least give it the 
benefit of the doubt.  The author is, after all a physical therapist and 
does have some worthy credentials.  Consider instead what Nick Payne so 
clearly underscores in his very accurate post above about the 
multi-position availability that the road bars offer a cyclist that upright 
or flat bars simply cannot.

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:58:04 AM UTC-5 amill...@gmail.com wrote:

> I’ve got Boscos, Toscos, Rene Herse Maes os, and Some HWY onecos. I’ve 
> ridden albatross, bull horns, fun3s, high risers, etc.
>
> They’re great. Having strong feelings about a handlebar seems strange to 
> me. I like the multiple positions on a drop bar as much as I like the 
> upright position on albatross’.
>
> Just like cruising can be as much or less fun as a group ride. 
>
> I admire Leah for not letting preconceived notions prevent her from trying 
> new things. I’ve been shunned by roadies at group rides and hipsters at 
> critical mass. Laugh it off and eat some tacos.
>
> Best,
>
> Aaron in El Paso
>
> On Jul 27, 2022, at 08:13, Tom Wyland  wrote:
>
> OK, I used to be all against the idea of riding in circles for sport.  
> I'm all about riding to get somewhere or do something, not just riding 
> loops.  Then Covid lockdown hit  and I didn't bike to work, there was 
> nothing open, and I didn't want to be exercising my lungs in the grocery 
> store after riding there.  So I found myself riding in circles.  So I guess 
> it's not that dumb after all. I just wish people would take a relaxing ride 
> once and a while instead of sprinting everywhere.
>
> I'm 100% with the comment from Max S on Chilling/Cruising/Jamming 
> positions.  All bars should have them.
>
> Tom, who recently switched to Bosco Bars
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[amillhench]

I’ve got Boscos, Toscos, Rene Herse Maes os, and Some HWY onecos. I’ve ridden 
albatross, bull horns, fun3s, high risers, etc.

They’re great. Having strong feelings about a handlebar seems strange to me. I 
like the multiple positions on a drop bar as much as I like the upright 
position on albatross’.

Just like cruising can be as much or less fun as a group ride. 

I admire Leah for not letting preconceived notions prevent her from trying new 
things. I’ve been shunned by roadies at group rides and hipsters at critical 
mass. Laugh it off and eat some tacos.

Best,

Aaron in El Paso

On Jul 27, 2022, at 08:13, Tom Wyland  wrote:

OK, I used to be all against the idea of riding in circles for sport.  I'm all 
about riding to get somewhere or do something, not just riding loops.  Then 
Covid lockdown hit  and I didn't bike to work, there was nothing open, and I 
didn't want to be exercising my lungs in the grocery store after riding there.  
So I found myself riding in circles.  So I guess it's not that dumb after all. 
I just wish people would take a relaxing ride once and a while instead of 
sprinting everywhere.

I'm 100% with the comment from Max S on Chilling/Cruising/Jamming positions.  
All bars should have them.

Tom, who recently switched to Bosco Bars


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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Tom Wyland]

OK, I used to be all against the idea of riding in circles for sport.  I'm 
all about riding to get somewhere or do something, not just riding loops.  
Then Covid lockdown hit  and I didn't bike to work, there was nothing open, 
and I didn't want to be exercising my lungs in the grocery store after 
riding there.  So I found myself riding in circles.  So I guess it's not 
that dumb after all. I just wish people would take a relaxing ride once and 
a while instead of sprinting everywhere.

I'm 100% with the comment from Max S on Chilling/Cruising/Jamming 
positions.  All bars should have them.

Tom, who recently switched to Bosco Bars


-- 
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Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Brian Turner]

I've always been a "to each their own" kind of person when it comes to 
bikes, and whatever gets anyone out riding and enjoying their bike(s) is a 
very good thing. However, all of this discussion centering around the 
controversies and drama of club rides just further cements my antipathy 
towards club riding.

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:27:14 AM UTC-4 ascpgh wrote:

> It really boils down to manners and the realm of empathy, which is 
> something I have seen dwindling in the subsequent ranks of roles in my 
> healthcare workplace. Any activity one participates in has certain 
> participant etiquette, even bar room brawls. In group bicycle rides I have 
> even had my randonneur drop bars questioned by a new to cycling cyclist 
> because of my bar end shifters. "Those are dangerous, you have to take your 
> hand off the brake levers to shift them". There is a whole lot egocentrism 
> in that sort of projection. I refer to that as a bilateral thumb disease: 
> .[image: Screen Shot 2022-07-27 at 8.20.37 AM.png]
>
> What is dangerous is being a new rider thinking that your proceeds from a 
> Peloton at the gym and anything you bought make you a good rider. If your 
> brakes are the control you want most, you are still NIB as a rider.
>
> I invite all riders to cycling and joining group rides but new cyclists 
> need to be less self-focused and more outwardly observant to absorb from 
> experienced riders, passively or actively. Overtaking me on an upgrade then 
> cutting back in front of me by inches only to pull a bottle and take a 
> drink while wavering is newbie obtuseness. That sort of exuberance put a 
> rider (that one) on the ground last night on a beautiful fast downhill on 
> brand new asphalt. Another went down because of a very poor condition 
> section of concrete with eroded open joints and fist-sized rocks that have 
> evulsed from them.
>
> I was the only rider with fenders and on one downhill stretch all others 
> around me were in their wobbly tucks "to go faster".  I overtly sat up as 
> high as I could in the air and only then was able to stop continuous 
> braking to keep from needing to cross the center line and pass while 
> coasting on my big gushy 650Bx42s amongst all their rock hard 700x<28s. 
>
> What things that make my bike faster? I realize green comes after red and 
> the cross street turns yellow just before that progression. I can clip into 
> my pedal without looking, before I want to start moving and momentarily 
> track stand until I'm clear to pedal onward. I can remember that if I come 
> to a stop when pushing a heroic gear that I will have to begin pedaling 
> from a standstill and downshift into a gear that makes that possible. Those 
> three things alone contribute to put me off the front, regardless of how 
> "fast" those new riders' bikes are or how slow they think mine is. 
>
> Experience counts more than hardware, which long time riders change with 
> some frequency. Knowing when someone else had made a conscious decisions 
> about their bike gear should be clue enough for one to keep their opinion 
> to themselves. Especially when their "OTC crotch rockets" (that's awesome 
> Marc!) have not been altered from the box, even bar tape or tires. 
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 1:22:27 PM UTC-4 Wesley wrote:
>
>> Agree with Bones. Everyone should ride the bike that makes them happiest, 
>> but based on my experience experimenting with all different kinds of bars, 
>> I can''t imagine that every single roadie would prefer drop bars if they 
>> gave other options a chance.
>> -W
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:09:20 AM UTC-7 Bones wrote:
>>
>>> I think that's the whole point. Drop bars are the only option on many 
>>> over the counter crotch rockets. Many people are not aware of the "endless 
>>> way(s) to ride." 
>>>
>>> Bones
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:52:55 AM UTC-4 jo...@chilmarkresearch.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Garth, couldn’t have said it better myself.
 Whatever works for YOU is all that counts…
 …though I have been known to give pointers to relatively new riders on 
 form, cadence, gearing etiquette, etc. to help them maintain pace in a 
 paceline. 

 Johnnysmooth 

 On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Garth  wrote:

 

 I've ridden many a mile and raced with quite low drops bars. I've 
 ridden many a mile with with quite high Albatross bars. 

 I've ridden many a mile with "regular/street" clothes. I've ridden many 
 a mile with "cycling specific" clothes. 

 Day/night/up/down and all around . 

 Who/what is to say one "position/way" is better than any other ?

 That "who/what" is but the given position trying to justify itself !  
  Not the rider, the one riding. These "positions" take many forms, be it 
 formations of size and shape or thoughts/opinions/attitudes inwards and 
 outwards towards "others". Sometimes 

Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Wesley]

Agree with Bones. Everyone should ride the bike that makes them happiest, 
but based on my experience experimenting with all different kinds of bars, 
I can''t imagine that every single roadie would prefer drop bars if they 
gave other options a chance.
-W

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:09:20 AM UTC-7 Bones wrote:

> I think that's the whole point. Drop bars are the only option on many over 
> the counter crotch rockets. Many people are not aware of the "endless 
> way(s) to ride." 
>
> Bones
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:52:55 AM UTC-4 jo...@chilmarkresearch.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Garth, couldn’t have said it better myself.
>> Whatever works for YOU is all that counts…
>> …though I have been known to give pointers to relatively new riders on 
>> form, cadence, gearing etiquette, etc. to help them maintain pace in a 
>> paceline. 
>>
>> Johnnysmooth 
>>
>> On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Garth  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> I've ridden many a mile and raced with quite low drops bars. I've ridden 
>> many a mile with with quite high Albatross bars. 
>>
>> I've ridden many a mile with "regular/street" clothes. I've ridden many a 
>> mile with "cycling specific" clothes. 
>>
>> Day/night/up/down and all around . 
>>
>> Who/what is to say one "position/way" is better than any other ?
>>
>> That "who/what" is but the given position trying to justify itself !  
>>  Not the rider, the one riding. These "positions" take many forms, be it 
>> formations of size and shape or thoughts/opinions/attitudes inwards and 
>> outwards towards "others". Sometimes the rider seems to "lose themselves" 
>> in these "positions" and seem to believe they ARE the "position". They are 
>> not, ever. One is not "what they say", One is That They IS" .BEING !  
>> ((( laughing ))) 
>>
>> Such is the "egomania" of such "positions" !  ((( laughing heartily ))) 
>> Always seeking validation, a pat on the ol' back, a status up high or even 
>> down low... and a ho-ho-ho !
>>
>>  
>> Nevertheless There's endless way to ride !  As you ride 'em all you 
>> clealy see that they all have thier place/time/space/etc, that there is no 
>> valid basis for comparing/raising/lowering one to any "other" one as there 
>> is only The-One-ALL . This Presence called "Here/Now/This/The-IS" ! 
>>
>> Just Ride sunshine ! 
>>
>> -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Bones]

I think that's the whole point. Drop bars are the only option on many over 
the counter crotch rockets. Many people are not aware of the "endless 
way(s) to ride." 

Bones

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:52:55 AM UTC-4 jo...@chilmarkresearch.com 
wrote:

> Garth, couldn’t have said it better myself.
> Whatever works for YOU is all that counts…
> …though I have been known to give pointers to relatively new riders on 
> form, cadence, gearing etiquette, etc. to help them maintain pace in a 
> paceline. 
>
> Johnnysmooth 
>
> On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Garth  wrote:
>
> 
>
> I've ridden many a mile and raced with quite low drops bars. I've ridden 
> many a mile with with quite high Albatross bars. 
>
> I've ridden many a mile with "regular/street" clothes. I've ridden many a 
> mile with "cycling specific" clothes. 
>
> Day/night/up/down and all around . 
>
> Who/what is to say one "position/way" is better than any other ?
>
> That "who/what" is but the given position trying to justify itself !   Not 
> the rider, the one riding. These "positions" take many forms, be it 
> formations of size and shape or thoughts/opinions/attitudes inwards and 
> outwards towards "others". Sometimes the rider seems to "lose themselves" 
> in these "positions" and seem to believe they ARE the "position". They are 
> not, ever. One is not "what they say", One is That They IS" .BEING !  
> ((( laughing ))) 
>
> Such is the "egomania" of such "positions" !  ((( laughing heartily ))) 
> Always seeking validation, a pat on the ol' back, a status up high or even 
> down low... and a ho-ho-ho !
>
>  
> Nevertheless There's endless way to ride !  As you ride 'em all you 
> clealy see that they all have thier place/time/space/etc, that there is no 
> valid basis for comparing/raising/lowering one to any "other" one as there 
> is only The-One-ALL . This Presence called "Here/Now/This/The-IS" ! 
>
> Just Ride sunshine ! 
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/93f45206-861c-4576-97c8-2440d527fe19n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[John Moore]

Garth, couldn’t have said it better myself.
Whatever works for YOU is all that counts…
…though I have been known to give pointers to relatively new riders on form, 
cadence, gearing etiquette, etc. to help them maintain pace in a paceline. 

Johnnysmooth 

> On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Garth  wrote:
> 
> 
> I've ridden many a mile and raced with quite low drops bars. I've ridden many 
> a mile with with quite high Albatross bars. 
> 
> I've ridden many a mile with "regular/street" clothes. I've ridden many a 
> mile with "cycling specific" clothes. 
> 
> Day/night/up/down and all around . 
> 
> Who/what is to say one "position/way" is better than any other ?
> 
> That "who/what" is but the given position trying to justify itself !   Not 
> the rider, the one riding. These "positions" take many forms, be it 
> formations of size and shape or thoughts/opinions/attitudes inwards and 
> outwards towards "others". Sometimes the rider seems to "lose themselves" in 
> these "positions" and seem to believe they ARE the "position". They are not, 
> ever. One is not "what they say", One is That They IS" .BEING !  ((( 
> laughing ))) 
> 
> Such is the "egomania" of such "positions" !  ((( laughing heartily ))) 
> Always seeking validation, a pat on the ol' back, a status up high or even 
> down low... and a ho-ho-ho !
> 
>  
> Nevertheless There's endless way to ride !  As you ride 'em all you 
> clealy see that they all have thier place/time/space/etc, that there is no 
> valid basis for comparing/raising/lowering one to any "other" one as there is 
> only The-One-ALL . This Presence called "Here/Now/This/The-IS" ! 
> 
> Just Ride sunshine ! 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/93f45206-861c-4576-97c8-2440d527fe19n%40googlegroups.com.

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Garth]

I've ridden many a mile and raced with quite low drops bars. I've ridden 
many a mile with with quite high Albatross bars. 

I've ridden many a mile with "regular/street" clothes. I've ridden many a 
mile with "cycling specific" clothes. 

Day/night/up/down and all around . 

Who/what is to say one "position/way" is better than any other ?

That "who/what" is but the given position trying to justify itself !   Not 
the rider, the one riding. These "positions" take many forms, be it 
formations of size and shape or thoughts/opinions/attitudes inwards and 
outwards towards "others". Sometimes the rider seems to "lose themselves" 
in these "positions" and seem to believe they ARE the "position". They are 
not, ever. One is not "what they say", One is That They IS" .BEING !  
((( laughing ))) 

Such is the "egomania" of such "positions" !  ((( laughing heartily ))) 
Always seeking validation, a pat on the ol' back, a status up high or even 
down low... and a ho-ho-ho !

 
Nevertheless There's endless way to ride !  As you ride 'em all you 
clealy see that they all have thier place/time/space/etc, that there is no 
valid basis for comparing/raising/lowering one to any "other" one as there 
is only The-One-ALL . This Presence called "Here/Now/This/The-IS" ! 

Just Ride sunshine ! 

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Bones]

I would have said look at all the other riders' body positions compared to 
Leah's. It's the same. It's the same position I am in while holding front 
of my Albatross/Billie bars. I can't dispute that drops are great sometimes 
(mostly wind for me), but I have my drops high enough to comfortable and 
useful for me. That may not be the case with many "over the counter crotch 
rockets" <-- love it!

Bones

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:12:02 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:

> Eric,
> The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the wind, 
> only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all 
> stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.
>
> Marc
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:
>
>> Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A 
>> more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 
>>
>> Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up 
>> fronter if she had drops. 
>>
>> Eric
>> With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:
>>
>>> It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A 
>>> typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of 
>>> people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop 
>>> bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright 
>>> bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, 
>>> Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her 
>>> posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.
>>> [image: high bars.jpg]
>>> It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars 
>>> make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>
>>
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cedfdbf5-1e48-4ac8-b43b-5a4929b914c5n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Marc Irwin]

Eric,
The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the wind, 
only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all 
stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.

Marc

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:

> Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A 
> more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 
>
> Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up 
> fronter if she had drops. 
>
> Eric
> With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:
>
>> It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A 
>> typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of 
>> people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop 
>> bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright 
>> bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, 
>> Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her 
>> posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.
>> [image: high bars.jpg]
>> It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars 
>> make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cedfdbf5-1e48-4ac8-b43b-5a4929b914c5n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Eric Daume]

Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A
more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better.

Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up
fronter if she had drops.

Eric
With no drop bar bikes in the garage.


On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin  wrote:

> It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A
> typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of
> people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop
> bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright
> bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group,
> Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her
> posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.
> [image: high bars.jpg]
> It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars
> make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?
>
> Marc
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/cedfdbf5-1e48-4ac8-b43b-
> 5a4929b914c5n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[RBW] High bars at a club ride

[Marc Irwin]

It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A 
typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of 
people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop 
bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright 
bars.In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, 
Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her 
posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.
[image: high bars.jpg]
It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars 
make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  

Marc

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