Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[greenteadrinkers]

I recently had issue with a Nitto stem coupled to a Bosco bar, for me, the 
bar would slip up and down. No matter how much I leaned into the stem bolts 
(same Nitto set up as yours - not the nice triangular rear bolt), just 
could not solve the issue, so I decided to move to the Bosco moose, problem 
solved. Creaky stems are the worst, I hope you get your problem solved 
without too much issue.

Scott

On Thursday, October 1, 2020 at 9:52:53 AM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> I’m SO glad that my old thread was of use to you. There is nothing that 
> will ruin your ride like unexplained clicks/squeaks. Yay for you!
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 1, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:
>
> I started a new thread without searching (my bad...sorry!), but Mark was 
> so kind as to point me to this one. I had the EXACT same noise in the same 
> situations as in Leah's video. The squeaky/click when pressure is applied 
> to the bars and when pressure is taken off. Hard to duplicate when not in 
> motion, but CONSTANT when in motion. Brand new Choco bars on a brand new 
> Tallux stem. 
>
>
> This thread helped tremendously...re-greasing the stem/wedge did not help. 
> I applied some grease to the bolt that tightens the clamp - no change. I 
> applied a little bit of T9 on the bar where it is clamped and the 
> squeak/click went away but came back after riding for about five 
> minutes...but nowhere near as often or loud as before. I slid out the 
> handlebar from the stem, wiped it down, reapplied a slightly heavier coat 
> of T9, re-installed bars,  and turned the handlebars so that the interface 
> would drip onto a paper towel I left on the ground. This morning, I wiped 
> off excess, could not make the sound happen inside, and rode to work 
> without any creak/clicks/squeaks.
>
> Fantastic! The best part is I don't need to call up Rivendell and bug 
> them. 
>
> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 9:46:04 PM UTC-5 ted wrote:
>
>> All the technomic ish stems I've had are of the deluxish genus with the 
>> nice custom "nut" that matches the stem shape.
>> But If presented with one of the other kind with a standard nut, I would 
>> put a wrench on it and not trust the, in my view, sketchy ledge to hold it.
>> Because, I don't buy aluminum wrenches or sockets, and much prefer 6 
>> point tools over 12. So even if the clearance were very tight I wouldn't 
>> trust it.
>> But hey that's just me. YMMV
>>
>> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 4:44:55 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>>
>>> aeroprof
>>>
>>> I agree with you, no substitution was made on Leah's stem.
>>>
>>> What I meant was Nitto designed the stem for a Standard M6 hex nut (13mm 
>>> flats) some time before 2000 when I bought my 225mm Technomic with 80mm 
>>> stem.  Some time between 2000 and 2010 Nitto made a design change to go to 
>>> a JIS M6 hex nut with 12mm flats.
>>> The design change added 0.5mm of margin between the nut flat and the 
>>> ledge and is reasonable, but not as tolerate to the allowed tolerances in 
>>> the bolt hole location and the ledge shape/location.
>>>
>>> I would guess they made a change if they were running into too many 
>>> problems with the clearance between the nut flat and ledge.  All very 
>>> reasonable, but *only* Nitto can say for sure.
>>>
>>> I think Leah's stem simply fell outside of the 6-sigma bell curve and 
>>> was not caught by Nitto.
>>>
>>> I think she ought to return it to RBW, and if they want they can pursue 
>>> it with Nitto.  Or maybe RBW/Nitto might say, " Ok it's 1 out X000's, which 
>>> we expected.  Give the a new one"
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown NJ
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 5:02:26 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:


 John—

 No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in 
 this particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close 
 enough 
 to the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.

 My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your 
 comment yesterday.
 Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or 
 something like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to 
 account for manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more 
 and things can be off center.
 There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
 radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
 misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
 let it spin.
 Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset 
 from the center of the hole.

 We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection 
 of precision parts clamped in loose formation.
 Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and 
 sometimes the quality inspectors don’t catch that.

 -- 
> You received this 

Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

I’m SO glad that my old thread was of use to you. There is nothing that will 
ruin your ride like unexplained clicks/squeaks. Yay for you!

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 1, 2020, at 6:00 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:
> 
> I started a new thread without searching (my bad...sorry!), but Mark was so 
> kind as to point me to this one. I had the EXACT same noise in the same 
> situations as in Leah's video. The squeaky/click when pressure is applied to 
> the bars and when pressure is taken off. Hard to duplicate when not in 
> motion, but CONSTANT when in motion. Brand new Choco bars on a brand new 
> Tallux stem. 
> 
> This thread helped tremendously...re-greasing the stem/wedge did not help. I 
> applied some grease to the bolt that tightens the clamp - no change. I 
> applied a little bit of T9 on the bar where it is clamped and the 
> squeak/click went away but came back after riding for about five 
> minutes...but nowhere near as often or loud as before. I slid out the 
> handlebar from the stem, wiped it down, reapplied a slightly heavier coat of 
> T9, re-installed bars,  and turned the handlebars so that the interface would 
> drip onto a paper towel I left on the ground. This morning, I wiped off 
> excess, could not make the sound happen inside, and rode to work without any 
> creak/clicks/squeaks.
> 
> Fantastic! The best part is I don't need to call up Rivendell and bug them. 
> 
>> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 9:46:04 PM UTC-5 ted wrote:
>> All the technomic ish stems I've had are of the deluxish genus with the nice 
>> custom "nut" that matches the stem shape.
>> But If presented with one of the other kind with a standard nut, I would put 
>> a wrench on it and not trust the, in my view, sketchy ledge to hold it.
>> Because, I don't buy aluminum wrenches or sockets, and much prefer 6 point 
>> tools over 12. So even if the clearance were very tight I wouldn't trust it.
>> But hey that's just me. YMMV
>> 
>>> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 4:44:55 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>> aeroprof
>>> 
>>> I agree with you, no substitution was made on Leah's stem.
>>> 
>>> What I meant was Nitto designed the stem for a Standard M6 hex nut (13mm 
>>> flats) some time before 2000 when I bought my 225mm Technomic with 80mm 
>>> stem.  Some time between 2000 and 2010 Nitto made a design change to go to 
>>> a JIS M6 hex nut with 12mm flats.
>>> The design change added 0.5mm of margin between the nut flat and the 
>>> ledge and is reasonable, but not as tolerate to the allowed tolerances in 
>>> the bolt hole location and the ledge shape/location.
>>> 
>>> I would guess they made a change if they were running into too many 
>>> problems with the clearance between the nut flat and ledge.  All very 
>>> reasonable, but only Nitto can say for sure.
>>> 
>>> I think Leah's stem simply fell outside of the 6-sigma bell curve and was 
>>> not caught by Nitto.
>>> 
>>> I think she ought to return it to RBW, and if they want they can pursue it 
>>> with Nitto.  Or maybe RBW/Nitto might say, " Ok it's 1 out X000's, which we 
>>> expected.  Give the a new one"
>>> 
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown NJ
>>> 
>>> 
 On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 5:02:26 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
 
 John—
 
 No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in this 
 particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close enough to 
 the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.
 
 My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your comment 
 yesterday.
 Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or 
 something like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to 
 account for manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more 
 and things can be off center.
 There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
 radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
 misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
 let it spin.
 Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset from 
 the center of the hole.
 
 We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection of 
 precision parts clamped in loose formation.
 Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and sometimes 
 the quality inspectors don’t catch that.
 
> 
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You received 

[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Ben Mihovk]

I started a new thread without searching (my bad...sorry!), but Mark was so 
kind as to point me to this one. I had the EXACT same noise in the same 
situations as in Leah's video. The squeaky/click when pressure is applied 
to the bars and when pressure is taken off. Hard to duplicate when not in 
motion, but CONSTANT when in motion. Brand new Choco bars on a brand new 
Tallux stem. 

This thread helped tremendously...re-greasing the stem/wedge did not help. 
I applied some grease to the bolt that tightens the clamp - no change. I 
applied a little bit of T9 on the bar where it is clamped and the 
squeak/click went away but came back after riding for about five 
minutes...but nowhere near as often or loud as before. I slid out the 
handlebar from the stem, wiped it down, reapplied a slightly heavier coat 
of T9, re-installed bars,  and turned the handlebars so that the interface 
would drip onto a paper towel I left on the ground. This morning, I wiped 
off excess, could not make the sound happen inside, and rode to work 
without any creak/clicks/squeaks.

Fantastic! The best part is I don't need to call up Rivendell and bug them. 

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 9:46:04 PM UTC-5 ted wrote:

> All the technomic ish stems I've had are of the deluxish genus with the 
> nice custom "nut" that matches the stem shape.
> But If presented with one of the other kind with a standard nut, I would 
> put a wrench on it and not trust the, in my view, sketchy ledge to hold it.
> Because, I don't buy aluminum wrenches or sockets, and much prefer 6 point 
> tools over 12. So even if the clearance were very tight I wouldn't trust it.
> But hey that's just me. YMMV
>
> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 4:44:55 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>> aeroprof
>>
>> I agree with you, no substitution was made on Leah's stem.
>>
>> What I meant was Nitto designed the stem for a Standard M6 hex nut (13mm 
>> flats) some time before 2000 when I bought my 225mm Technomic with 80mm 
>> stem.  Some time between 2000 and 2010 Nitto made a design change to go to 
>> a JIS M6 hex nut with 12mm flats.
>> The design change added 0.5mm of margin between the nut flat and the 
>> ledge and is reasonable, but not as tolerate to the allowed tolerances in 
>> the bolt hole location and the ledge shape/location.
>>
>> I would guess they made a change if they were running into too many 
>> problems with the clearance between the nut flat and ledge.  All very 
>> reasonable, but *only* Nitto can say for sure.
>>
>> I think Leah's stem simply fell outside of the 6-sigma bell curve and was 
>> not caught by Nitto.
>>
>> I think she ought to return it to RBW, and if they want they can pursue 
>> it with Nitto.  Or maybe RBW/Nitto might say, " Ok it's 1 out X000's, which 
>> we expected.  Give the a new one"
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 5:02:26 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> John—
>>>
>>> No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in 
>>> this particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close enough 
>>> to the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.
>>>
>>> My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your comment 
>>> yesterday.
>>> Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or 
>>> something like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to 
>>> account for manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more 
>>> and things can be off center.
>>> There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
>>> radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
>>> misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
>>> let it spin.
>>> Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset 
>>> from the center of the hole.
>>>
>>> We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection of 
>>> precision parts clamped in loose formation.
>>> Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and 
>>> sometimes the quality inspectors don’t catch that.
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[ted]

All the technomic ish stems I've had are of the deluxish genus with the 
nice custom "nut" that matches the stem shape.
But If presented with one of the other kind with a standard nut, I would 
put a wrench on it and not trust the, in my view, sketchy ledge to hold it.
Because, I don't buy aluminum wrenches or sockets, and much prefer 6 point 
tools over 12. So even if the clearance were very tight I wouldn't trust it.
But hey that's just me. YMMV

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 4:44:55 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> aeroprof
>
> I agree with you, no substitution was made on Leah's stem.
>
> What I meant was Nitto designed the stem for a Standard M6 hex nut (13mm 
> flats) some time before 2000 when I bought my 225mm Technomic with 80mm 
> stem.  Some time between 2000 and 2010 Nitto made a design change to go to 
> a JIS M6 hex nut with 12mm flats.
> The design change added 0.5mm of margin between the nut flat and the 
> ledge and is reasonable, but not as tolerate to the allowed tolerances in 
> the bolt hole location and the ledge shape/location.
>
> I would guess they made a change if they were running into too many 
> problems with the clearance between the nut flat and ledge.  All very 
> reasonable, but *only* Nitto can say for sure.
>
> I think Leah's stem simply fell outside of the 6-sigma bell curve and was 
> not caught by Nitto.
>
> I think she ought to return it to RBW, and if they want they can pursue it 
> with Nitto.  Or maybe RBW/Nitto might say, " Ok it's 1 out X000's, which we 
> expected.  Give the a new one"
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
> On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 5:02:26 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
>>
>>
>> John—
>>
>> No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in 
>> this particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close enough 
>> to the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.
>>
>> My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your comment 
>> yesterday.
>> Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or 
>> something like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to 
>> account for manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more 
>> and things can be off center.
>> There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
>> radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
>> misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
>> let it spin.
>> Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset 
>> from the center of the hole.
>>
>> We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection of 
>> precision parts clamped in loose formation.
>> Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and sometimes 
>> the quality inspectors don’t catch that.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

aeroprof

I agree with you, no substitution was made on Leah's stem.

What I meant was Nitto designed the stem for a Standard M6 hex nut (13mm 
flats) some time before 2000 when I bought my 225mm Technomic with 80mm 
stem.  Some time between 2000 and 2010 Nitto made a design change to go to 
a JIS M6 hex nut with 12mm flats.
The design change added 0.5mm of margin between the nut flat and the 
ledge and is reasonable, but not as tolerate to the allowed tolerances in 
the bolt hole location and the ledge shape/location.

I would guess they made a change if they were running into too many 
problems with the clearance between the nut flat and ledge.  All very 
reasonable, but *only* Nitto can say for sure.

I think Leah's stem simply fell outside of the 6-sigma bell curve and was 
not caught by Nitto.

I think she ought to return it to RBW, and if they want they can pursue it 
with Nitto.  Or maybe RBW/Nitto might say, " Ok it's 1 out X000's, which we 
expected.  Give the a new one"

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ


On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 5:02:26 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
>
>
> John—
>
> No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in this 
> particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close enough to 
> the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.
>
> My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your comment 
> yesterday.
> Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or 
> something like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to 
> account for manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more 
> and things can be off center.
> There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
> radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
> misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
> let it spin.
> Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset from 
> the center of the hole.
>
> We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection of 
> precision parts clamped in loose formation.
> Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and sometimes 
> the quality inspectors don’t catch that.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Joe Bernard]

My Nitto stem on my brand new Bridgestone XO-3 in 1994 had the clamp bored out 
at an angle: If the stem was aligned with the toptube and front tire, the bar 
was at an angle to the left as if I was slightly turning left. Mistakes make it 
through. 

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[George Schick]

This is painful. But it reminds me that not all products are manf'd 
equally.  There's no way that the stem bolt hole could be drilled from the 
back side, only from the front.  If the jaws on the stem were spread a tad 
bit too much, for example, the target zone for the 2nd hole on the back 
would be misaligned.  These things are supposed to be inspected for quality 
before they leave the manf. BUT what happens to them if they're rejected?

Over the years I have been burned on several occasions when buying bike 
parts, tools, etc. as well as non-bike related items.  One time I ordered a 
Park TS-2 truing stand from some outfit that sold it at a significant 
discount.  Turned out that the axle jaw on one side of the stand was 
cantered slightly when it was welded to the base so that both jaws were not 
perfectly parallel.  I've lived with it and managed to make it work, but 
it's not the way it should be.  Another time I bought a rifle scope 
mounting base for a Remington Model 700.  The go-to for Remington is 
Redfield so I bought a base from a Redfield discounter.  After I installed 
the base and the scope on the rifle I found that it was shooting way over 
the top of the target and no matter how much I tried to "dial in" the 
cross-hairs it would not correct the deficiency.  I wound up taking it to a 
good gun smith with machinist tools who put the base on a vertical milling 
machine and made it right.

Therefore, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that some factory rejects wind 
up sneaking out the back door where they're peddled to discounters and 
other dealers instead of being scrapped.  NOT saying that's what happened 
in this this case, but one has to wonder.

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 4:02:26 PM UTC-5, aeroperf wrote:
>
>
> John—
>
> No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in this 
> particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close enough to 
> the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.
>
> My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your comment 
> yesterday.
> Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or 
> something like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to 
> account for manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more 
> and things can be off center.
> There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
> radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
> misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
> let it spin.
> Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset from 
> the center of the hole.
>
> We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection of 
> precision parts clamped in loose formation.
> Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and sometimes 
> the quality inspectors don’t catch that.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[aeroperf]

John—

No, I don’t think they substituted a JIS nut for a standard M8 nut in this 
particular unit.  That was my first thought but my nut is close enough to 
the “step” that it looks like the design is for the JIS 12mm.

My thought is more like #1 or #6 in Paul’s entry above, and your comment 
yesterday.
Say the hole is drilled a little off, or at a very tiny angle, or something 
like that.  You have to drill a hole a tiny bit oversized to account for 
manufacturing tolerance of the bolts, but just a little more and things can 
be off center.
There is also the fact that the step has a “draft” - it has a slight 
radius, at least on mine.  So the nut already may have an opportunity to 
misalign a little, and a very slightly misaligned or oversized hole would 
let it spin.
Finally, Leah’s photo indicates that the bolt/nut was slightly offset from 
the center of the hole.

We tend to think “It’s just a bicycle”, but it is really a collection of 
precision parts clamped in loose formation.
Sometimes a part has a bad day in the manufacturing process and sometimes 
the quality inspectors don’t catch that.

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Aeroperf

Good idea on the 2 different hex nut sizes.  When you say "I think you just 
got a bad stem", can you be more specific about what the  'bad' is??? 

Are you saying Nitto substituted a JIS hex nut (12mm flats) when the 
original design used a standard metric hex nut (13mm flats)??

Following your lead, I measured my 5 Nitto 225mm quill Technomics and got 
the following results:

80mm, *13mm hex nut flat,  stem bought about 2000, tight fit (25.4 
clamp),  * bought from St Sheldon, based on his write up about raising 
your bars for more comfort (how right and ahead of his time he was)
100mm,   12mm hex nut flat,  stem bought about 2011 (26.0 clamp), no 
spinning occurred, about 1 mm clearance
80mm, 12mm hex nut flat,  stem bought about 2016 (26.0 clamp), no 
spinning occurred, about 1 mm clearance
90mm, 12mm hex nut flat,  stem bought about 2016 (26.0 clamp),  NIB, 
about 1 mm clearance
70mm, 12mm hex nut flat,  stem bought in 2019 (26.0 clamp), no spinning 
occurred, about 1mm clearance, used with a 25.4mm bar with 1/2 of Nitto 
shim inserted, I tightened this one more than normal. 

Though not conclusive, it appears the Nitto design was for a 13mm hex nut, 
and sometime before 2011, changed to a 12mm hex nut.  Not sure if the clamp 
diameter makes a difference for where the hole is drilled or the ledge 
located.  My 2000 stem is 25.4 (as is Leah's) and other 4 are 26.0.  

As Paul B pointed out, the 12mm JIS nut is a sub-optimal design.  Probably 
done to minimize problems with the casting tolerances in the shelf/ledge 
and drilling tolerances in the stem bolt hole.  If so, one could see their 
point, but it does lead to occasional problems as Leah discovered.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ


On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 12:09:58 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
>
>
>
> Everybody probably already knows this, but a couple of notes on bolts & 
> nuts.
>
> Bolts are typically steel.  If they go into steel they are typically fine 
> thread, but not always.  Sometimes using a taller nut and coarse thread is 
> cheaper.
> If they go into aluminum they are almost always coarse thread.  
> For metric bolts, if they have a thread identifier they are typically fine 
> thread.  No identifier means they are typically coarse thread.
>
> For this exercise, if a Nitto stem requires a fine thread, the bolt would 
> be a M8 1.0 x 23.  (8mm diameter, 1.0mm thread, 23mm length.) 
> If a coarse thread was required - if, say, the triangular nut was aluminum 
> - it would be a M8 x 23.  (8mm diameter, 1.25mm thread, 23mm length.)
>
> So I trundle out to the garage and pull the bolt/nut from my standard 
> Nitto 110mm stem…  It came with a triangular nut, which is steel, and a 
> fine thread M8 1.0 x 23 bolt (with a 1mm washer under the bolt head).
> I look at my long Nitto 100mm stem.  Yes, I took it out of the pack just 
> for this.  It came with a hex nut that is pretty close to the flat in the 
> stem, and a 35mm long coarse thread bolt.  M8 x 35, also with a 1mm washer 
> under the head.
>
> But a note - there is something called a Japan Industrial Standard, or JIS.
> Most metric M8 hex nuts are 13mm across the flats.  The M8 JIS hex nut is 
> 1mm smaller across the flat (12mm vs 13mm).
> If a design was supposed to have a standard metric nut, and you got a JIS 
> hex nut, it would be just a tad smaller than a standard nut and would be 
> easier to rotate against the flat (Paul’s #4).
> Out with the calipers again - the nut is 12mm across the flats.  But this 
> design looks like it was JIS from the beginning (MY hex nut certainly 
> doesn’t spin), so I have to go with Paul on this.  I think you just got a 
> bad stem.
>
> JIS is also used for other parts of a bicycle, like those derailleur 
> stop-screws that don’t quite fit Phillips screwdrivers.
>
> I don’t know if this helps at this point or is overcome by events, But if 
> you just get a standard M8 coarse nut at Home Depot, it will eliminate the 
> space between the nut and the shelf.
>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[aeroperf]

Everybody probably already knows this, but a couple of notes on bolts & 
nuts.

Bolts are typically steel.  If they go into steel they are typically fine 
thread, but not always.  Sometimes using a taller nut and coarse thread is 
cheaper.
If they go into aluminum they are almost always coarse thread.  
For metric bolts, if they have a thread identifier they are typically fine 
thread.  No identifier means they are typically coarse thread.

For this exercise, if a Nitto stem requires a fine thread, the bolt would 
be a M8 1.0 x 23.  (8mm diameter, 1.0mm thread, 23mm length.) 
If a coarse thread was required - if, say, the triangular nut was aluminum 
- it would be a M8 x 23.  (8mm diameter, 1.25mm thread, 23mm length.)

So I trundle out to the garage and pull the bolt/nut from my standard Nitto 
110mm stem…  It came with a triangular nut, which is steel, and a fine 
thread M8 1.0 x 23 bolt (with a 1mm washer under the bolt head).
I look at my long Nitto 100mm stem.  Yes, I took it out of the pack just 
for this.  It came with a hex nut that is pretty close to the flat in the 
stem, and a 35mm long coarse thread bolt.  M8 x 35, also with a 1mm washer 
under the head.

But a note - there is something called a Japan Industrial Standard, or JIS.
Most metric M8 hex nuts are 13mm across the flats.  The M8 JIS hex nut is 
1mm smaller across the flat (12mm vs 13mm).
If a design was supposed to have a standard metric nut, and you got a JIS 
hex nut, it would be just a tad smaller than a standard nut and would be 
easier to rotate against the flat (Paul’s #4).
Out with the calipers again - the nut is 12mm across the flats.  But this 
design looks like it was JIS from the beginning (MY hex nut certainly 
doesn’t spin), so I have to go with Paul on this.  I think you just got a 
bad stem.

JIS is also used for other parts of a bicycle, like those derailleur 
stop-screws that don’t quite fit Phillips screwdrivers.

I don’t know if this helps at this point or is overcome by events, But if 
you just get a standard M8 coarse nut at Home Depot, it will eliminate the 
space between the nut and the shelf.

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Paul Brodek]

I've used these stems for a couple forevers, and never felt the "need" to 
use a wrench with the nut, but I always do. The "shelf," or maybe "ledge" 
is better?, isn't particularly deep, so I think using a wrench makes for 
more secure tightening. I'm also pretty retentive when it comes to this 
stuff, and if you don't use a wrench, when you torque down there's enough 
wiggle room for the nut to rotate maybe 5~10deg, so the nut flat isn't 
parallel to the ledge. My wrench fixes that.

Never seen a need for an extra washer, lubed threads and proper torque 
locks it down solid. I have at times under-torqued it in the stand, 
figuring I'd tighten it fully after making sure the bar angle was correct. 
If it's a 2am job, once in a while the final tightening doesn't get done in 
the stand. I usually figure that out as soon as it leaves the stand, though.

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA  

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 2:00:32 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "Why are so many opposed to using a simple wrench on a nut as Nitto 
> intended for this model stem?"
>
> I don't think it's "opposed" so much as the other Nitto stems - like most 
> one-bolt stems - don't work that way. I've had a bunch of both models and 
> don't think I've ever used a wrench on that nut, it wouldn't have occurred 
> to me. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Patrick Moore]

The Soma stem worked with the steel Bosco, which has a sleeve (judging by
the catalogue photo), and the aluminum Bosco worked fine with the Tech
Deluxe; so it looks as if tiny manufacturing variations just cause
sufficient mismatch between this particular stem and this particular bar. I
agree that if all is as it should be with stem and bar, the bar should not
creak in the stem clamp, and that well-matched bar and stem don't require
lubrication to keep them quient, but I suppose that there are always chance
variations that on occasion can add up to a de facto mis-match.

Me, I'd look for another stem or another bar, but I realize that this is
not a solution that will appeal to everyone. Perhaps in this case the extra
weight of the steel Bosco will be preferable to the creak? What is the
difference in weight, anyway?

I'll be curious to hear of the resolution.




On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:36 AM Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> I tried the bars in a different Technomic stem, same hex nut, and no
> ticking.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:06 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Leah
>
> Did you try your current AL bars in a DIFFERENT stem??   Did the  bars
> 'tick' in the different stem???
>
> I probably missed it in the previous posts.  Get mixed up between all the
> Technomics
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>>
>>
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> .
>
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> .
>


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---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

I don’t know. I went after my whole bike with hex keys to see if I could find 
the source of the ticking. When I went to tighten the bolt at the stem clamp, I 
noticed the hex nut also turning, making the bolt feel stripped to me. I had my 
husband mess around with the hex nut, so not sure if it was loose or not. But 
we did make sure it was nice and snug at the end of our fussing with it. The 
tick never improved.

Next day I used the T9 on the interface of stem/bar and it seems to have 
stopped for now.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 18, 2020, at 5:58 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Leah
> 
> Sounds like a harrowing ride.
> 
> When you got home, was the nut on the stem clamp bolt loose???   If so how 
> much loose
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

I tried the bars in a different Technomic stem, same hex nut, and no ticking.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 18, 2020, at 6:06 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Leah
> 
> Did you try your current AL bars in a DIFFERENT stem??   Did the  bars 'tick' 
> in the different stem???
> 
> I probably missed it in the previous posts.  Get mixed up between all the 
> Technomics
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ 
>> 
>>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah

Did you try your current AL bars in a DIFFERENT stem??   Did the  bars 
'tick' in the different stem???

I probably missed it in the previous posts.  Get mixed up between all the 
Technomics

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ 

>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Mark Roland]

Yeah, I'm generally not a proponent of greasing the stem-handlebar 
interface as noted in my reply above. But of course a seat post gets 
greased and is also not designed to move, and many have lubed the stem/bar 
area to get rid of noise. So assuming the bar and stem are the correct size 
for one another,  I suppose it may be fine. Although I recall one time 
putting some T-9 on my squeaky saddle springs, and one of the nuts holding 
the spring undid itself shortly thereafter. DW-40 might actually be better 
in this application, as it tends to dry sticky.

On Thursday, June 18, 2020 at 2:51:11 AM UTC-4, Sal wrote:
>
> I was replying to this: "I’m hoping the T9 works its way deeper into the 
> crevices. I have real stem grease coming via Amazon tomorrow - do you all 
> think I should add that to the stem/bar interface as well? "
>
> The stem/bar interface should get nothing, the stem/steerer interface 
> should get grease, and I'll admit I missed what crevices the T-9 is 
> supposed to be working its way into... it won't hurt the stem/steerer 
> interface but it probably won't help much either: a thicker grease is 
> better there. 
>
> Boeshield is for where you want to lube or prevent corrosion, neither of 
> which is the case at the handlebar clamp. *Handlebar clamp area should be 
> clean and dry and the correct size for the stem being used*, otherwise 
> bar may slip. Worth checking all threads involved (stem bolts) and making 
> sure the *threads* aren't dry, though. 
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:26:11 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Sal, she says she used a little Boeshield on it. Is that ok and grease is 
>> bad, or are you saying nah to both? 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah

Sounds like a harrowing ride.

When you got home, was the nut on the stem clamp bolt loose???   If so how 
much loose

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Sal]

I was replying to this: "I’m hoping the T9 works its way deeper into the 
crevices. I have real stem grease coming via Amazon tomorrow - do you all 
think I should add that to the stem/bar interface as well? "

The stem/bar interface should get nothing, the stem/steerer interface 
should get grease, and I'll admit I missed what crevices the T-9 is 
supposed to be working its way into... it won't hurt the stem/steerer 
interface but it probably won't help much either: a thicker grease is 
better there. 

Boeshield is for where you want to lube or prevent corrosion, neither of 
which is the case at the handlebar clamp. *Handlebar clamp area should be 
clean and dry and the correct size for the stem being used*, otherwise bar 
may slip. Worth checking all threads involved (stem bolts) and making sure 
the *threads* aren't dry, though. 


On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:26:11 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Sal, she says she used a little Boeshield on it. Is that ok and grease is 
> bad, or are you saying nah to both? 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Joe Bernard]

Sal, she says she used a little Boeshield on it. Is that ok and grease is bad, 
or are you saying nah to both? 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Sal]

do NOT grease the stem/bar interface! 

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 8:48:10 PM UTC-7, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Whew, I’m glad to have that clarified, and thank you, John. 
>
> I did my 10 miler tonight and I think the ticking is mostly resolved. It 
> was a windy night, and I was moving pretty quickly and there were a lot of 
> people out and about, so it was difficult to really hear. I think I did 
> hear some small ticking maybe 8 miles in, but it was aberrant. I’m hoping 
> the T9 works its way deeper into the crevices. I have real stem grease 
> coming via Amazon tomorrow - do you all think I should add that to the 
> stem/bar interface as well? 
>
> Thanks for all the help today; I’m getting more of an understanding about 
> how stuff works on the bike. It’s both enlightening and terrifying - can I 
> admit that here among all these enthusiasts? Why should more knowledge be 
> terrifying? Well, I used to ride bikes without thought as to what could go 
> wrong. Little noises weren’t even noticed. But the more I know, the more I 
> realize can go wrong. 
>
> This week lots went wrong on the bike. A couple nights ago I was headed 
> down Killer Hill at speed and noticed that my Edelux headlight had some 
> play in it. Huh, I thought, I don’t remember it moving like that... It all 
> got worse fast, so I came to a screeching halt in time for something silver 
> and round to fall off from the light mount, as the light hung loosely from 
> it. I realized that the silver hoop was one of two parts, and the other, an 
> inch long rod-type thing was missing. I backtracked and found the little 
> silver rod up the hill a ways (WHEW) and put it back the way I thought it 
> should go. 
>
> Shaken up by THAT but determined the show must go on, I mounted my bike, 
> and set off rather gingerly, as I feared the light mount loosening again. I 
> pushed off, towards a crossing and was nearly run down by an SUV whose 
> driver decided to run a stop sign. After some unpleasantries between us (I 
> admit to nothing), I was then forced to suffer the indignity of being 
> passed by a Roadie who was at least 20 years my senior.
>
> If you still don’t feel sorry for me, I will add the final straw was 
> taking a turn too tightly and hearing the sickening sound of metal scraping 
> concrete while feeling the bike underneath me skitter sideways. Pedal 
> strike. With my light mount barely holding and my pedal now noticeably 
> scuffed, I pointed my bike towards home. 
>
> Last night, the ticking in my bars was obnoxious and I was about to start 
> getting tics of my own. Arriving home, I set to work with my hex wrenches 
> trying to see where the noise was coming from. I found several loose 
> things, also disturbing. I came inside, started this thread and went to bed 
> at midnight.
>
> After swapping the stem a couple times today and all the futzing around 
> and guesswork, I envisioned the bike coming apart beneath me on tonight’s 
> descent. But, hey, everything held!
>
> So, thanks for all the help; I’m in need of it and I have learned a LOT 
> from this group. But I still maintain that knowing more is frightening.
>
> Leah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:12 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> 
> Leah
>
> I'm sorry if "defective" implied "unsafe".  I meant the stem does not meet 
> it's design and hence is defective.  The Nitto design of the nut and shelf 
> interface has a small of margin of error, since the hex nut has short flats.
>
> I do NOT think the stem is unsafe to ride since you used a wrench on the 
> bolt to obtain adequate clamp force, and the creak is not present.
>
> If it was on my bike, I would use it and if the creak started again, place 
> a star washer under the bolt to prevent loosening.  The creak is your 
> 'clamp too loose' indicator.
>
> Alternatively, contact and RBW and see what if this covered by their 
> return policy.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Joe Bernard]

Knowledge is power. Both can be scary!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

Whew, I’m glad to have that clarified, and thank you, John. 

I did my 10 miler tonight and I think the ticking is mostly resolved. It was a 
windy night, and I was moving pretty quickly and there were a lot of people out 
and about, so it was difficult to really hear. I think I did hear some small 
ticking maybe 8 miles in, but it was aberrant. I’m hoping the T9 works its way 
deeper into the crevices. I have real stem grease coming via Amazon tomorrow - 
do you all think I should add that to the stem/bar interface as well? 

Thanks for all the help today; I’m getting more of an understanding about how 
stuff works on the bike. It’s both enlightening and terrifying - can I admit 
that here among all these enthusiasts? Why should more knowledge be terrifying? 
Well, I used to ride bikes without thought as to what could go wrong. Little 
noises weren’t even noticed. But the more I know, the more I realize can go 
wrong. 

This week lots went wrong on the bike. A couple nights ago I was headed down 
Killer Hill at speed and noticed that my Edelux headlight had some play in it. 
Huh, I thought, I don’t remember it moving like that... It all got worse fast, 
so I came to a screeching halt in time for something silver and round to fall 
off from the light mount, as the light hung loosely from it. I realized that 
the silver hoop was one of two parts, and the other, an inch long rod-type 
thing was missing. I backtracked and found the little silver rod up the hill a 
ways (WHEW) and put it back the way I thought it should go. 

Shaken up by THAT but determined the show must go on, I mounted my bike, and 
set off rather gingerly, as I feared the light mount loosening again. I pushed 
off, towards a crossing and was nearly run down by an SUV whose driver decided 
to run a stop sign. After some unpleasantries between us (I admit to nothing), 
I was then forced to suffer the indignity of being passed by a Roadie who was 
at least 20 years my senior.

If you still don’t feel sorry for me, I will add the final straw was taking a 
turn too tightly and hearing the sickening sound of metal scraping concrete 
while feeling the bike underneath me skitter sideways. Pedal strike. With my 
light mount barely holding and my pedal now noticeably scuffed, I pointed my 
bike towards home. 

Last night, the ticking in my bars was obnoxious and I was about to start 
getting tics of my own. Arriving home, I set to work with my hex wrenches 
trying to see where the noise was coming from. I found several loose things, 
also disturbing. I came inside, started this thread and went to bed at midnight.

After swapping the stem a couple times today and all the futzing around and 
guesswork, I envisioned the bike coming apart beneath me on tonight’s descent. 
But, hey, everything held!

So, thanks for all the help; I’m in need of it and I have learned a LOT from 
this group. But I still maintain that knowing more is frightening.

Leah







Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:12 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Leah
> 
> I'm sorry if "defective" implied "unsafe".  I meant the stem does not meet 
> it's design and hence is defective.  The Nitto design of the nut and shelf 
> interface has a small of margin of error, since the hex nut has short flats.
> 
> I do NOT think the stem is unsafe to ride since you used a wrench on the bolt 
> to obtain adequate clamp force, and the creak is not present.
> 
> If it was on my bike, I would use it and if the creak started again, place a 
> star washer under the bolt to prevent loosening.  The creak is your 'clamp 
> too loose' indicator.
> 
> Alternatively, contact and RBW and see what if this covered by their return 
> policy.
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah

I'm sorry if "defective" implied "unsafe".  I meant the stem does not meet 
it's design and hence is defective.  The Nitto design of the nut and shelf 
interface has a small of margin of error, since the hex nut has short flats.

I do NOT think the stem is unsafe to ride since you used a wrench on the 
bolt to obtain adequate clamp force, and the creak is not present.

If it was on my bike, I would use it and if the creak started again, place 
a star washer under the bolt to prevent loosening.  The creak is your 
'clamp too loose' indicator.

Alternatively, contact and RBW and see what if this covered by their return 
policy.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

PS Yes, I plan to replace the stem. It’s not possible now as they are only at 
SomaFab and the 50 is sold out in 280 mm height. 

Also,  someone asked about how high I have the bars. I don’t have the stem 
minimally inserted - there is a healthy distance between my chosen setting and 
the max height line. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 12:40 PM, Leah Peterson  wrote:
> 
> So, I took most of the advice here so far. Including that I swapped back to 
> the Tall Boy stem after using some T9 at the stem/bar interface. I used a 
> wrench to ensure the bolt was truly tight and I rode around the neighborhood. 
> All is silent.
> 
> I’m still concerned about the safety of the stem because John and Joe both 
> consider my stem suspect. I also know Nitto has issues now and then with QC. 
> John - I’d do that visual inspection and even send you the photos/video but 
> now that I’ve got everything set up again I’m leaving it. I hope it’s not 
> dangerous. Kind of the worst thing to go on your bike, you know? *Shudder.*
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jun 17, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>> 
>> In this case the noise is definitely at the clamp, I saw a video where she  
>> loosened the clamp enough to move the bars up and down and the creak turned 
>> DEAFENING. This is WAY unusual to me and I've worked with dozens of Nitto 
>> stem/bar combinations, but here we are. A. I hope grease cures it for now. 
>> B. I don't trust that stem. She needs a new one. 
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

So, I took most of the advice here so far. Including that I swapped back to the 
Tall Boy stem after using some T9 at the stem/bar interface. I used a wrench to 
ensure the bolt was truly tight and I rode around the neighborhood. All is 
silent.

I’m still concerned about the safety of the stem because John and Joe both 
consider my stem suspect. I also know Nitto has issues now and then with QC. 
John - I’d do that visual inspection and even send you the photos/video but now 
that I’ve got everything set up again I’m leaving it. I hope it’s not 
dangerous. Kind of the worst thing to go on your bike, you know? *Shudder.*

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> In this case the noise is definitely at the clamp, I saw a video where she  
> loosened the clamp enough to move the bars up and down and the creak turned 
> DEAFENING. This is WAY unusual to me and I've worked with dozens of Nitto 
> stem/bar combinations, but here we are. A. I hope grease cures it for now. B. 
> I don't trust that stem. She needs a new one. 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Joe Bernard]

In this case the noise is definitely at the clamp, I saw a video where she  
loosened the clamp enough to move the bars up and down and the creak turned 
DEAFENING. This is WAY unusual to me and I've worked with dozens of Nitto 
stem/bar combinations, but here we are. A. I hope grease cures it for now. B. I 
don't trust that stem. She needs a new one. 

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[tuolumne bikes]

Regarding the nut, hex or otherwise. I've never needed to put a wrench on 
it, but if it were spinning, I would. If you can get the bolt tight, it 
works fine regardless of how the nut was restrained while tightening it. If 
I worked in a bike shop, I'd hold the nut with a wrench to avoid putting a 
nick in the bottom of someone else's stem.

Regarding the creaks. Quill to steel steerer tube has always been greased 
because steel rusts. Using a super long quill with minimal insertion might 
be cause for creaking there, since the lever arm from the top of the stem 
about the top of the quill/steerer interface is so long. Nitto would get 
the blame since they make the long quill stems, but it's not really an 
indicator that the stem is faulty.

There are two (significant) ways the bars exert force on the bar/stem 
interface. The center of the bars can deform slightly due to 
up/down/forward/rearward forces on the bars, and the bars can rotate in the 
clamp. Back in the day road bars were 40-42 cm wide plus or minus. Many 
bars are much wider now, so the lever arm for up/down/forward/rearward is 
longer. Similarly for bars with long backsweep, especially Boscos, the 
lever arm for rotation of the bars in the clamp is much longer. The 
stresses of "big bars" are larger at the clamp.

I've never lubed the bar to stem interface in forty years and creaking 
hasn't been an issue until using wide Albastache bars. They creak if I pull 
hard on them, I ignore so far. Seems like the sleeve/bar interface would be 
the more likely culprit, so maybe I'll try some chain lube there.

As an experiment, you could try riding your creaky bars hard and bumpy in 
the narrower/more forward position to see if you can get a creak. That 
won't solve the creaking problem, but would prove the point about the lever 
arm. 

Carl

>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah

>From the video:
1. The stem seems to have excessive distance from the bolt to the 'shelf" 
which stops the nut rotation. The excessive distance allows the nut to 
rotate when tightened

2 The "shelf" flat appears straight and does not have a rounded out center, 
as would occur if the bolt was over torqued and caused the nut to 'tear' 
through the Al body.  This needs a close visual exam to verify, the video 
was not close enough.  Whoever installed the original or a later bar may 
have over-tightened it

Clearly, the stem is designed to capture the nut, as others have stated.  
So your stem appears to have a manufacturing defect or less likely was over 
torqued and tore thru the Al.

You have 2 courses of action, if you ruled out over-tightening via close 
visual exam:
1.  Use the stem, tightening with a wrench and use a star washer underneath 
to prevent loosening
2.  Contact RBW and explain they sold you a defective stem

 John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

What? You don’t like the Tall Boy? Why are you selling it? If you’re really 
sure, I might want to buy it from you. I just lived and swapped back the Tall 
Boy stem. If I still have that tick, take my money.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 10:44 AM, aeroperf  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> When Leah posted about buying her stem, I went out and got one, too (and 
> within a week of her posting).
> Here’s the photo of mine - still in the plastic bag (because I’m going to 
> re-sell it and I wanted it pristine.
> As you can see, it’s a hex nut.
> If I were going to install mine, I would remove the nut entirely and put a 
> star washer under it, then hold it with a wrench to tighten.
> 
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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Joe Bernard]

"Why are so many opposed to using a simple wrench on a nut as Nitto intended 
for this model stem?"

I don't think it's "opposed" so much as the other Nitto stems - like most 
one-bolt stems - don't work that way. I've had a bunch of both models and don't 
think I've ever used a wrench on that nut, it wouldn't have occurred to me. 

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[lconley]

Why are so many opposed to using a simple wrench on a nut as Nitto intended 
for this model stem?

A guy who likes using the correct tool for the job.
Laing


On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:47:44 PM UTC-4, Doug Hansford wrote:

> I agree with you aeroperf, there is nothing for the nut to "grab" when 
> tightened down. A star washer or split/lock washer should help.
> Doug
>
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:44:40 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
>>
>>
>> When Leah posted about buying her stem, I went out and got one, too (and 
>> within a week of her posting).
>> Here’s the photo of mine - still in the plastic bag (because I’m going to 
>> re-sell it and I wanted it pristine.
>> As you can see, it’s a hex nut.
>> If I were going to install mine, I would remove the nut entirely and put 
>> a star washer under it, then hold it with a wrench to tighten.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Doug Hansford]

I agree with you aeroperf, there is nothing for the nut to "grab" when 
tightened down. A star washer or split/lock washer should help.
Doug

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:44:40 PM UTC-4, aeroperf wrote:
>
>
> When Leah posted about buying her stem, I went out and got one, too (and 
> within a week of her posting).
> Here’s the photo of mine - still in the plastic bag (because I’m going to 
> re-sell it and I wanted it pristine.
> As you can see, it’s a hex nut.
> If I were going to install mine, I would remove the nut entirely and put a 
> star washer under it, then hold it with a wrench to tighten.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

John, this is how it’s supposed to work, but it’s not. I’ve tried all different 
ways of laying that nut flat against the stem casting and it spins regardless. 
I’ve flipped the nut both ways...still spins. Does that mean defect? 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:39 AM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> ++1 on this.
> 
> The nut flats contact a 'flat' in the casting, and when you tighten the allen 
> in front, the 2 flats contact each other, and the nut does not rotate as you 
> tighten it.  Visually check the BACK of the stem for the nut flat to line up 
> with the stem casting flat to line up.
> 
> I would do this before greasing or oiling anything.  The bar is NOT designed 
> to move or rotate in the clamp and needs grease only to prevent galvanic 
> corrosion (dis-simiiar metals like steel in Al)
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
> 
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:15:55 AM UTC-4, lconley wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt? 
>>> 
>>> Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it when 
>>> you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, some 
>>> do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not hold 
>>> still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your problem 
>>> - the stem bolt was never tight.
>> 
>> Laing 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

++1 on this.

The nut flats contact a 'flat' in the casting, and when you tighten the 
allen in front, the 2 flats contact each other, and the nut does not rotate 
as you tighten it.  Visually check the BACK of the stem for the nut flat to 
line up with the stem casting flat to line up.

I would do this before greasing or oiling anything.  The bar is NOT 
designed to move or rotate in the clamp and needs grease only to prevent 
galvanic corrosion (dis-simiiar metals like steel in Al)

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:15:55 AM UTC-4, lconley wrote:
>
>
>> Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt? 
>>
>> Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it 
>> when you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, 
>> some do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not 
>> hold still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your 
>> problem - the stem bolt was never tight.
>>
>
> Laing 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Sean Ryan]

I used triflow though any chain lube should do.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 11:17:34 AM UTC-4, Sean Ryan wrote:
>
> I had some ticking/clicking on an older pair of aluminum nitto handlebars 
> and i took care of it by laying the bike and applying oil to the bars at 
> the edge of the sleeve.  The idea is to let the oil make its way down 
> between the bars and the sleeve.  After letting it soak/penetrate for a 
> little while i wiped down the bars and they have been silent ever since.  
> if the noise is coming from the handlebar/sleeve area this may help. 
>
> Sean
> Massachusetts
>
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:37:11 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>> You guys are so good at these games. I’m already implementing your 
>> instructions and it’s only 7 am! 
>>
>> First, the grease in the steerer. It’s there. The shop applied a fresh 
>> coat while I was standing there watching - this was early June.
>>
>> Second, verify the stem is 25.4 - I pulled it out and yes, it’s 25.4
>>
>> Next up, you say oil. That I have not yet done because I swapped stems at 
>> midnight last night. But if I trust the stem enough to swap it back, I’ll 
>> oil it. Or should I grease it? Which is better?
>>
>> Let’s call the problematic Nitto stem Tall Boy. I think there’s something 
>> wrong with Tall Boy, but I’m not experienced enough to know WHAT. As I was 
>> extracting the Bosco from it last night it took a lot of force and there 
>> was a ton of squeaking. Video below. Also, there is the problem of the stem 
>> clamp bolt. It spins as if stripped; you have to brace the nut with a 
>> wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the bolt. My other stems don’t 
>> do this - you tighten the bolt with a hex key and DONE. I’ve emailed Soma 
>> to ask about this; maybe I’ll hear from them today.
>>
>> Also, see how chewed up my sleeve on my brand new Bosco is. Something 
>> seems wrong, but inspection of the now-removed stem reveals nothing to my 
>> eye.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Sean Ryan]

I had some ticking/clicking on an older pair of aluminum nitto handlebars 
and i took care of it by laying the bike and applying oil to the bars at 
the edge of the sleeve.  The idea is to let the oil make its way down 
between the bars and the sleeve.  After letting it soak/penetrate for a 
little while i wiped down the bars and they have been silent ever since.  
if the noise is coming from the handlebar/sleeve area this may help. 

Sean
Massachusetts

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 10:37:11 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> You guys are so good at these games. I’m already implementing your 
> instructions and it’s only 7 am! 
>
> First, the grease in the steerer. It’s there. The shop applied a fresh 
> coat while I was standing there watching - this was early June.
>
> Second, verify the stem is 25.4 - I pulled it out and yes, it’s 25.4
>
> Next up, you say oil. That I have not yet done because I swapped stems at 
> midnight last night. But if I trust the stem enough to swap it back, I’ll 
> oil it. Or should I grease it? Which is better?
>
> Let’s call the problematic Nitto stem Tall Boy. I think there’s something 
> wrong with Tall Boy, but I’m not experienced enough to know WHAT. As I was 
> extracting the Bosco from it last night it took a lot of force and there 
> was a ton of squeaking. Video below. Also, there is the problem of the stem 
> clamp bolt. It spins as if stripped; you have to brace the nut with a 
> wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the bolt. My other stems don’t 
> do this - you tighten the bolt with a hex key and DONE. I’ve emailed Soma 
> to ask about this; maybe I’ll hear from them today.
>
> Also, see how chewed up my sleeve on my brand new Bosco is. Something 
> seems wrong, but inspection of the now-removed stem reveals nothing to my 
> eye.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[lconley]

>
>
> Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt? 
>
> Some Nitto stems have a nut on the backside that needs a wrench on it when 
> you turn the Allen wrench on the front bolt to keep it from spinning, some 
> do not. If you have a nut on the back of the stem that you did not hold 
> still while you were turning the Allen wrench, that is likely your problem 
> - the stem bolt was never tight.
>

Laing 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Leah Peterson]

Interesting; gives me some hope. By “wet lube” do you mean that Boeshield would 
be ok to use at bar/stem interface? That’s what I have on hand...

 Ok, what of the strangely spinning bolt? 
Thanks much,
Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 7:49 AM, Conway Bennett  
> wrote:
> 
> Nitto cockpit are known to do this.  Disassemble and regrease EVERYTHING and 
> reassemble and the problem may or may not resurface.  I have experienced this 
> issue only once, I addressed it, and it never resurfaced.  
> 
> The roadside fix is a couple of drops of wet lube into the bar stem interface 
> and tighten the clamp bolt.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Conway Bennett]

Nitto cockpit are known to do this.  Disassemble and regrease EVERYTHING and 
reassemble and the problem may or may not resurface.  I have experienced this 
issue only once, I addressed it, and it never resurfaced.  

The roadside fix is a couple of drops of wet lube into the bar stem interface 
and tighten the clamp bolt.

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Mark Roland]

True, although If I'm reading it right, Rivendell bought it from Soma for 
her and then passed it on, so hopefully they verified it was 25.4. Still, 
stuff happens!

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 9:43:11 AM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> +1 on what Hugh said.
>
> Suggest also pulling the stem out and verify the quill is stamped with 
> "25.4" and NOT "26.0" for the clamp diameter.  A mix up may have occurred 
> at Soma and they sent you a 26.0 stem.
>
> The CrMo bars may have tolerated a clamp mismatch better than the Al bars
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:15:42 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>> I have the extra tall Nitto stem with 50 mm reach. SomaFab makes it, Riv 
>> got it for and sold it to me and I love it. Everything seemed fine and then 
>> I gave my Clementine that major makeover I’ve gone on about on a separate 
>> thread. While I was lightening my bike I decided I should swap the cromo 55 
>> Boscos for 52 aluminum Boscos. And those I love as well - they are perfect 
>> for me. 
>>
>> However, I noticed I’ve developed a strange ticking in the bars. Yes, 
>> it’s definitely from there, but what is NOT clear is if it’s the stem or 
>> the new Boscos. I took a video tonight, and you can hear the sound. It 
>> happens randomly, regardless of whether or not I’m pushing on my bars, but 
>> I can *also* create the ticking by jostling the bars. I’ll include a video 
>> where you can hear it in the next post. 
>>
>> Anyway, let’s talk about the stem first. Two things: 
>> 1. When I slid my new aluminum Boscos into the clamp on my stem and went 
>> to tighten the bolt, the bolt felt “stripped.” Which it could not possibly 
>> be, and which I had never experienced before (I installed the 55 cromo bars 
>> with no issue). Opposite the bolt is a nut that requires you to stabilize 
>> it with a wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the clamp onto your 
>> bars. Weird. 
>>
>> 2. Can the ticking sound be because the stem is used to the cromo bar 
>> that was installed prior, and now it won’t play well with another bar? 
>>
>> Bars. 
>> 1. The aluminum bars have a sheath in the middle, where the clamp goes. 
>> Could the sheath have something to do with the ticking sounds? I have heard 
>> Nitto has QC issues. Could that be what I’m experiencing? 
>>
>> Videos and link to the stem in next post. One day, maybe I’ll get my bike 
>> problems solved. Oh, how you all long for that day! 
>> Sorry! And thanks, 
>> Leah
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

+1 on what Hugh said.

Suggest also pulling the stem out and verify the quill is stamped with 
"25.4" and NOT "26.0" for the clamp diameter.  A mix up may have occurred 
at Soma and they sent you a 26.0 stem.

The CrMo bars may have tolerated a clamp mismatch better than the Al bars

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:15:42 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> I have the extra tall Nitto stem with 50 mm reach. SomaFab makes it, Riv 
> got it for and sold it to me and I love it. Everything seemed fine and then 
> I gave my Clementine that major makeover I’ve gone on about on a separate 
> thread. While I was lightening my bike I decided I should swap the cromo 55 
> Boscos for 52 aluminum Boscos. And those I love as well - they are perfect 
> for me. 
>
> However, I noticed I’ve developed a strange ticking in the bars. Yes, it’s 
> definitely from there, but what is NOT clear is if it’s the stem or the new 
> Boscos. I took a video tonight, and you can hear the sound. It happens 
> randomly, regardless of whether or not I’m pushing on my bars, but I can 
> *also* create the ticking by jostling the bars. I’ll include a video where 
> you can hear it in the next post. 
>
> Anyway, let’s talk about the stem first. Two things: 
> 1. When I slid my new aluminum Boscos into the clamp on my stem and went 
> to tighten the bolt, the bolt felt “stripped.” Which it could not possibly 
> be, and which I had never experienced before (I installed the 55 cromo bars 
> with no issue). Opposite the bolt is a nut that requires you to stabilize 
> it with a wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the clamp onto your 
> bars. Weird. 
>
> 2. Can the ticking sound be because the stem is used to the cromo bar that 
> was installed prior, and now it won’t play well with another bar? 
>
> Bars. 
> 1. The aluminum bars have a sheath in the middle, where the clamp goes. 
> Could the sheath have something to do with the ticking sounds? I have heard 
> Nitto has QC issues. Could that be what I’m experiencing? 
>
> Videos and link to the stem in next post. One day, maybe I’ll get my bike 
> problems solved. Oh, how you all long for that day! 
> Sorry! And thanks, 
> Leah

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Re: [RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[hugh flynn]

All interfaces are suspect in this scenario and the phantom click can be
tough to isolate.

As noted above grease in the quill is step 1.

If that doesn't do it, a light coat of oil on the sleeve should be tried.

If that doesn't do it, loosen the stem clamp (so there's no pressure on the
sleeve), put some light oil around the junction between the sleeve and the
bar, and lay the bike on one side so the oil can seep between the sleeve
and the bar. Let it sit for a few hours then flip the bike on the other
side and repeat. Then wipe up any excess, tighten things back up and repeat.

If that doesn't do it... well, that's all I have :-)

Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:24 AM Mark Roland 
wrote:

> The stem she linked to is 25.4, and she previously had chromo Boscos in
> there with no noise.
>
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:49:25 AM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>> Leah
>>
>> All Bosco bars (CrMo or Al) are 25.4mm in the clamp area.  Is the Nitto
>> Stem a 25.4mm or 26.0mm diameter clamp?
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
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> .
>
-- 
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Newburyport, MA

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Mark Roland]

The stem she linked to is 25.4, and she previously had chromo Boscos in 
there with no noise. 

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 7:49:25 AM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Leah
>
> All Bosco bars (CrMo or Al) are 25.4mm in the clamp area.  Is the Nitto 
> Stem a 25.4mm or 26.0mm diameter clamp?  
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah

All Bosco bars (CrMo or Al) are 25.4mm in the clamp area.  Is the Nitto 
Stem a 25.4mm or 26.0mm diameter clamp?  

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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[RBW] Re: Problems with Nitto stems and bars?

[Mark Roland]

Did you put a good amount of grease on the stem quill going into the 
steerer when re-installing? Since it seems to be a "paired" click--that is, 
it clicks when pressure is applied, and again when released--maybe there is 
something going on with that interface. Loosen stem, lube it up, (including 
some grease on the stem bolt and nut) move it around a bit in the steerer, 
tighten to spec. Easy to do, so if it works, yay.

Otherwise, you will need to play around with the sheath area of the 
handlebar. I've seen bars where that sleeve has some movement, not sure of 
the construction of yours. As Ryan suggests, grease. Or maybe anti-seize or 
mild loc-tite? I don't generally put anything there, so others would know 
better.

If you can, do one thing at a time, starting with easiest. That way you 
will (hopefully) diagnose the cause for the future, if it comes back.

On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 at 1:15:42 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> I have the extra tall Nitto stem with 50 mm reach. SomaFab makes it, Riv 
> got it for and sold it to me and I love it. Everything seemed fine and then 
> I gave my Clementine that major makeover I’ve gone on about on a separate 
> thread. While I was lightening my bike I decided I should swap the cromo 55 
> Boscos for 52 aluminum Boscos. And those I love as well - they are perfect 
> for me. 
>
> However, I noticed I’ve developed a strange ticking in the bars. Yes, it’s 
> definitely from there, but what is NOT clear is if it’s the stem or the new 
> Boscos. I took a video tonight, and you can hear the sound. It happens 
> randomly, regardless of whether or not I’m pushing on my bars, but I can 
> *also* create the ticking by jostling the bars. I’ll include a video where 
> you can hear it in the next post. 
>
> Anyway, let’s talk about the stem first. Two things: 
> 1. When I slid my new aluminum Boscos into the clamp on my stem and went 
> to tighten the bolt, the bolt felt “stripped.” Which it could not possibly 
> be, and which I had never experienced before (I installed the 55 cromo bars 
> with no issue). Opposite the bolt is a nut that requires you to stabilize 
> it with a wrench while you use your hex key to tighten the clamp onto your 
> bars. Weird. 
>
> 2. Can the ticking sound be because the stem is used to the cromo bar that 
> was installed prior, and now it won’t play well with another bar? 
>
> Bars. 
> 1. The aluminum bars have a sheath in the middle, where the clamp goes. 
> Could the sheath have something to do with the ticking sounds? I have heard 
> Nitto has QC issues. Could that be what I’m experiencing? 
>
> Videos and link to the stem in next post. One day, maybe I’ll get my bike 
> problems solved. Oh, how you all long for that day! 
> Sorry! And thanks, 
> Leah

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