Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[JohnS]

Awesome news Eric, glad to hear you're Hillborne is back on the road!

JohnS


On Saturday, August 5, 2023 at 5:17:41 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> After twenty miles today with no chain jumping I'm calling this solved. 
>
> [image: sh.jpg]
>
> On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 11:42:39 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>
>> huzzah!
>>
>> On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 10:12:15 AM UTC-4 ride2almo...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What a great outcome 
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 10:09 AM Eric Marth  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks, Ryan and Danny. Just rode another 3 miles on a quick bank 
 errand, no skips. Will have to try a longer ride when it dries out. 

 Also installed a Brooks Pro I purchased from Two Wheeled Texan's Grand 
 Relocation Parts Blowout and I liked it! 

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:15:42 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>
>> Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it 
>> worked out!
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as 
>>> easy as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to 
>>> the 
>>> elongated hole.
>>>
>>> Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful 
>>> of times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with 
>>> the 
>>> Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, 
>>> but I 
>>> found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, 
>>> and I 
>>> don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal 
>>> that 
>>> I experienced with the Park tool.
>>>
>>> -Danny
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:
>>>
 George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a 
 more robust solution, I agree. 

 Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset 
 presses they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need 
 one 
 but... they seemed awesome. 

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel 
> one, avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home 
> mechanic of 
> fine steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it 
> every 
> time the derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having 
> any 
> stubborn shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because 
> the 
> alignment was out slightly. 
>
> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>
>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do 
>> with bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention 
>> to 
>> downplay the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a 
>> Helicoil or dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would 
>> likely 
>> be the Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter 
>> threads in 
>> order to install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the 
>> damaged 
>> hanger better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. 
>> website, 
>> I'm not sure how well that would work in this case.
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool 
>>> in the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman 
>>> recommended 
>>> installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to 
>>> repair the 
>>> bolt hole. 
>>>
>>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the replies, everyone. 

 A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the 
 chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of 
 like when 
 you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it 
 right. But 
 no amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 

 I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The 
 cassette was new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the 
 three big 
 gears enough to wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s 
 from 
 Rivendell, it's an 

Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Stephen]

huzzah!

On Friday, August 4, 2023 at 10:12:15 AM UTC-4 ride2almo...@gmail.com wrote:

> What a great outcome 
>
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 10:09 AM Eric Marth  wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Ryan and Danny. Just rode another 3 miles on a quick bank errand, 
>> no skips. Will have to try a longer ride when it dries out. 
>>
>> Also installed a Brooks Pro I purchased from Two Wheeled Texan's Grand 
>> Relocation Parts Blowout and I liked it! 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:15:42 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>>>
 Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it 
 worked out!

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:

> I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as 
> easy as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the 
> elongated hole.
>
> Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of 
> times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the 
> Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but 
> I 
> found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and 
> I 
> don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal 
> that 
> I experienced with the Park tool.
>
> -Danny
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:
>
>> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more 
>> robust solution, I agree. 
>>
>> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset 
>> presses they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one 
>> but... they seemed awesome. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel 
>>> one, avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic 
>>> of 
>>> fine steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every 
>>> time the derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any 
>>> stubborn shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the 
>>> alignment was out slightly. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>>
 This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with 
 bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to 
 downplay 
 the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or 
 dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the 
 Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in 
 order to 
 install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged 
 hanger 
 better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm 
 not 
 sure how well that would work in this case.

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in 
> the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended 
> installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to 
> repair the 
> bolt hole. 
>
> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>>
>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the 
>> chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like 
>> when 
>> you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it 
>> right. But 
>> no amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>>
>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette 
>> was new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big 
>> gears 
>> enough to wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from 
>> Rivendell, 
>> it's an 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. 
>> SunXCD 
>> crank with TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with 
>> the 
>> wheel (it's running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. 
>> Also no 
>> play in the freehub body. 
>>
>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the 
>> hole, hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated 
>> when I try 
>> to move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 
>>
>> I have *not yet* tried installing a 

Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Ian]

What a great outcome

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 10:09 AM Eric Marth  wrote:

> Thanks, Ryan and Danny. Just rode another 3 miles on a quick bank errand,
> no skips. Will have to try a longer ride when it dries out.
>
> Also installed a Brooks Pro I purchased from Two Wheeled Texan's Grand
> Relocation Parts Blowout and I liked it!
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:15:42 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>
>> Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>>
>>> Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it
>>> worked out!
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>>>
 I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as
 easy as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the
 elongated hole.

 Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of
 times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the
 Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I
 found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I
 don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that
 I experienced with the Park tool.

 -Danny

 On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:

> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more
> robust solution, I agree.
>
> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses
> they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... 
> they
> seemed awesome.
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel
>> one, avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of
>> fine steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every
>> time the derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any
>> stubborn shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the
>> alignment was out slightly.
>>
>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with
>>> bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to 
>>> downplay
>>> the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or
>>> dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the
>>> Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in 
>>> order to
>>> install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger
>>> better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm 
>>> not
>>> sure how well that would work in this case.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in
 the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended
 installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair 
 the
 bolt hole.

 I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well.

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> Thanks for the replies, everyone.
>
> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the
> chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like 
> when
> you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it 
> right. But
> no amount of trimming is fixing the issue.
>
> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette
> was new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears
> enough to wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from 
> Rivendell,
> it's an 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. 
> SunXCD
> crank with TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with 
> the
> wheel (it's running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. 
> Also no
> play in the freehub body.
>
> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the
> hole, hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when 
> I try
> to move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble.
>
> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette.
> That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the
> process.
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>
>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about 

Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Ryan and Danny. Just rode another 3 miles on a quick bank errand, 
no skips. Will have to try a longer ride when it dries out. 

Also installed a Brooks Pro I purchased from Two Wheeled Texan's Grand 
Relocation Parts Blowout and I liked it! 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:15:42 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>
>> Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it 
>> worked out!
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as 
>>> easy as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the 
>>> elongated hole.
>>>
>>> Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of 
>>> times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the 
>>> Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I 
>>> found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I 
>>> don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that 
>>> I experienced with the Park tool.
>>>
>>> -Danny
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:
>>>
 George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more 
 robust solution, I agree. 

 Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses 
 they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... 
 they 
 seemed awesome. 

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, 
> avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine 
> steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time 
> the 
> derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn 
> shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment 
> was 
> out slightly. 
>
> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>
>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with 
>> bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to 
>> downplay 
>> the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or 
>> dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the 
>> Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order 
>> to 
>> install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger 
>> better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm 
>> not 
>> sure how well that would work in this case.
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in 
>>> the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended 
>>> installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair 
>>> the 
>>> bolt hole. 
>>>
>>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the replies, everyone. 

 A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the 
 chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like 
 when 
 you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it 
 right. But 
 no amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 

 I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette 
 was new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears 
 enough to wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from 
 Rivendell, 
 it's an 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. 
 SunXCD 
 crank with TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with 
 the 
 wheel (it's running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. 
 Also no 
 play in the freehub body. 

 The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the 
 hole, hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when 
 I try 
 to move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 

 I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. 
 That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the 
 process. 

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:

> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 
>
> Jim
>

Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Ryan]

Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:

> Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it worked 
> out!
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:
>
>> I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as easy 
>> as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the 
>> elongated hole.
>>
>> Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of 
>> times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the 
>> Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I 
>> found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I 
>> don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that 
>> I experienced with the Park tool.
>>
>> -Danny
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:
>>
>>> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more 
>>> robust solution, I agree. 
>>>
>>> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses 
>>> they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they 
>>> seemed awesome. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>>
 Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, 
 avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine 
 steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time 
 the 
 derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn 
 shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment 
 was 
 out slightly. 

 On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:

> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with 
> bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay 
> the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or 
> dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the 
> Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order 
> to 
> install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger 
> better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm 
> not 
> sure how well that would work in this case.
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in 
>> the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended 
>> installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair 
>> the 
>> bolt hole. 
>>
>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>>>
>>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the 
>>> chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like 
>>> when 
>>> you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. 
>>> But 
>>> no amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>>>
>>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was 
>>> new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears 
>>> enough to 
>>> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's 
>>> an 
>>> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank 
>>> with 
>>> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel 
>>> (it's 
>>> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in 
>>> the 
>>> freehub body. 
>>>
>>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, 
>>> hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try 
>>> to 
>>> move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 
>>>
>>> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. 
>>> That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the 
>>> process. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>>
 Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
 derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 

 Jim

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:

> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated 
> hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  
>
> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have 
> used it 

Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Danny]

Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it worked 
out!

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote:

> I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as easy 
> as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the 
> elongated hole.
>
> Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of 
> times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the 
> Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I 
> found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I 
> don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that 
> I experienced with the Park tool.
>
> -Danny
>
> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:
>
>> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more 
>> robust solution, I agree. 
>>
>> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses 
>> they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they 
>> seemed awesome. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>>
>>> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, 
>>> avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine 
>>> steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time the 
>>> derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn 
>>> shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was 
>>> out slightly. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>>
 This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with 
 bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay 
 the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or 
 dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the 
 Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order 
 to 
 install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger 
 better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not 
 sure how well that would work in this case.

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the 
> M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended 
> installing 
> a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt 
> hole. 
>
> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>>
>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain 
>> is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when 
>> you're 
>> in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no 
>> amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>>
>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was 
>> new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough 
>> to 
>> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's 
>> an 
>> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank 
>> with 
>> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's 
>> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in 
>> the 
>> freehub body. 
>>
>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, 
>> hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to 
>> move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 
>>
>> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. 
>> That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the 
>> process. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>
>>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
>>> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>>
 Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated 
 hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  

 I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
 Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have 
 used it 
 on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  

 On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
 dropout alignment gauge, also useful:

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Hi CJ: Thanks for this thoughtful response. The teeth on the cassette and 
chainring appear to be in good shape, they aren't very old. The chain I'm 
using is brand new. Also tried an older chain to be sure, both skipped. 

Dropouts were aligned at my LBS with their alignment tools. 

Looks like the cassette lock ring was loose. Installed a different cassette 
and is running without the chain skipping. 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:

> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger 
> will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent 
> that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain skip. 
> Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you 
> checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 
>
> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
> sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
> but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.
>
> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment 
> tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself 
> many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, 
> name-brand tool, but it works.
>
> CJ
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Okay, some mild updates. 
>
> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two dozen 
> times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and during 
> nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and the 
> derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test ride. 
> Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 
>
> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight edges, 
> trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer hanger 
> where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane with one 
> another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still jumps. 
>
> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have so 
> far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
> mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
> nicely each time. 
>
> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
> alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
> *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque 
> on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they 
> look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant 
> about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. 
> He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of 
> motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine 
> nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say 
> "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable 
> quotes by notable people. 
>
> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
> so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
> end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 
>
> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and shape 
> it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and have 
> worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has sold 
> his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
> messages. 
>
> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer hanger 
> alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the Park Tool 
> DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm not afraid 
> to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 
>
> Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as always): 
>
>- Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I give up 
>and advance to next option
>- Take it to a shop
>   - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't think that's 
>   going to happen but they are audibly and visibly weary. 
>   - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want to take my 
>   bikes to them
>- Get a new dropout welded onto the bike
>   - I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a builder in my area
>   - Contacted three people. One retired, the other two haven't 
>   responded. 
>- Send it to Rivendell
>   - Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. Cool!
>   - Grant said to 

Re: [RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Danny]

I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as easy
as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the
elongated hole.

Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of
times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the
Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I
found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I
don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that
I experienced with the Park tool.

-Danny

On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth  wrote:

> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more
> robust solution, I agree.
>
> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses
> they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they
> seemed awesome.
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one,
>> avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine
>> steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time the
>> derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn
>> shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was
>> out slightly.
>>
>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike
>>> repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the
>>> unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout
>>> saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the Helicoil
>>> because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install
>>> the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better.
>>> Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how
>>> well that would work in this case.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the
 M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing
 a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole.

 I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well.

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> Thanks for the replies, everyone.
>
> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain
> is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're
> in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no
> amount of trimming is fixing the issue.
>
> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was
> new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough 
> to
> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an
> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with
> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's
> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in 
> the
> freehub body.
>
> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole,
> hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to
> move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble.
>
> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette.
> That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the
> process.
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>
>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the
>> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>
>>> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated
>>> hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.
>>>
>>> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park
>>> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have 
>>> used it
>>> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.
>>>
>>> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade
>>> dropout alignment gauge, also useful:
>>>
>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok
>>>
>>> Jim in Rochester, NY
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:

> Hey Eric,
>
> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

*Today: Progress! *

Thanks again for your replies. Today Wesley and Stephen's replies 
suggesting that it might *not *be the hanger had me scratching my head in 
new and exciting ways. Thank you for your suggestions that I keep 
searching. 

I remembered that back when all this began my friend Tess at A1A bike shop 
in St. Augustine asked if there was play in the freehub body or the 
cassette. I checked both and noticed a very small amount of wiggle in the 
cassette. It seemed acceptable. She recommended that I try a different 
wheel and cassette. I hadn't done this yet and decided today that I'd try a 
wheel swap before purchasing the Park DAG. I'll probably still get one ;) 

This afternoon I removed the wheel, removed the S-Ride 7-speed cassette and 
installed an 8-speed cassette from my parts bin with the same cog 
configuration (11-32). Snugged it up, re-installed the wheel. It was 
raining out and I rode around the neighborhood in my jeans and wool 
Birkenstocks until my pants and shirt were soaked. 

No skips from the chain! Until today all of my dozens of test rides 
resulted in the chain jumping after the first few strokes. I would ride the 
bike out of my shop and start saying, out loud, "Clunk clunk clunk." Then 
the chain would clunk and I'd say a string of words that would get me 
forever banned from this forum. 

This time it didn't happen once. I rode for about two miles around the 
neighborhood in my smallest three cogs, pedaled hard, climbed a hill, 
pedaled out of the saddle. Chain felt and operated like normal. I'll have 
to take it on a longer ride tomorrow to be sure. 

*I believe the cassette lock ring was loose, *introducing movement in the 
cassette. When I say the chain was "jumping" I mean that when I pedaled 
under load the chain would physically slip, clunk loudly and interrupt my 
stroke. I think the chain would slip off of one of the cassette teeth, 
slide for a second, then engage with another tooth. It makes a sharp, loud 
noise that sounds unpleasant and feels wrong under your feet. 

The lock ring must have come loose during the fall and subsequent mangling 
of the derailer and hanger. 

I wish I'd listened to Tess right out of the gate, I would have been much 
further along if I had. It would seem my hand and eye derailer alignment 
skills are passable. 

I currently have a Deore XT derailer installed. I much prefer the classical 
looks of the Suntour Cyclone but I'm going to leave the XT installed for 
the shakeout period. 

Thanks again to everyone for the help, encouragement, kind words and 
collective brainpower! 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:52:56 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more 
> robust solution, I agree. 
>
> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses 
> they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they 
> seemed awesome. 
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:
>
>> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, 
>> avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine 
>> steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time the 
>> derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn 
>> shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was 
>> out slightly. 
>>
>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike 
>>> repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the 
>>> unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout 
>>> saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the Helicoil 
>>> because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install 
>>> the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better.  
>>> Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how 
>>> well that would work in this case.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the 
 M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing 
 a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. 

 I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>
> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain 
> is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when 
> you're 
> in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no 
> amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>
> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was 
> new in summer of 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more 
robust solution, I agree. 

Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses they 
got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they 
seemed awesome. 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:

> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, 
> avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine 
> steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time the 
> derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn 
> shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was 
> out slightly. 
>
> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:
>
>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike 
>> repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the 
>> unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout 
>> saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the Helicoil 
>> because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install 
>> the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better.  
>> Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how 
>> well that would work in this case.
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the 
>>> M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing 
>>> a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. 
>>>
>>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the replies, everyone. 

 A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain 
 is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're 
 in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no 
 amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 

 I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was 
 new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough 
 to 
 wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an 
 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with 
 TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's 
 running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in 
 the 
 freehub body. 

 The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, 
 hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to 
 move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 

 I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. That 
 will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the process. 

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:

> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 
>
> Jim
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>
>> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated 
>> hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  
>>
>> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
>> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used 
>> it 
>> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  
>>
>> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
>> dropout alignment gauge, also useful:
>>
>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok
>>
>> Jim in Rochester, NY
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 Hey Eric,

 Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
 sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others 
 for 
 getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
 yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it 
 references to 
 the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I 
 bought 
 after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 

 I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else 
 going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only 
 noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Jason Fuller]

Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, avoid 
the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine steel 
frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time the 
derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn 
shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was 
out slightly. 

On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote:

> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike 
> repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the 
> unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout 
> saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the Helicoil 
> because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install 
> the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better.  
> Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how 
> well that would work in this case.
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the 
>> M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing 
>> a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. 
>>
>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>>>
>>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain is 
>>> under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're in 
>>> the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no amount 
>>> of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>>>
>>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was new 
>>> in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough to 
>>> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an 
>>> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with 
>>> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's 
>>> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in the 
>>> freehub body. 
>>>
>>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, 
>>> hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to 
>>> move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 
>>>
>>> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. That 
>>> will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the process. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>>
 Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
 derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 

 Jim

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:

> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated 
> hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  
>
> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used 
> it 
> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  
>
> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
> dropout alignment gauge, also useful:
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok
>
> Jim in Rochester, NY
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>
>> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Eric,
>>>
>>> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
>>> sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others 
>>> for 
>>> getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
>>> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it 
>>> references to 
>>> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I 
>>> bought 
>>> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 
>>>
>>> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else 
>>> going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only 
>>> noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go 
>>> into 
>>> the wheel. may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the 
>>> derailer 
>>> may have any wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in 
>>> another derailer or chain to test the system? 
>>>
>>> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching 
>>> the final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which 
>>> would be 
>>> time consuming 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[George Schick]

This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike 
repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the 
unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout 
saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the Helicoil 
because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install 
the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better.  
Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how 
well that would work in this case.

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the 
> M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing 
> a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. 
>
> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>>
>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain is 
>> under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're in 
>> the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no amount 
>> of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>>
>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was new 
>> in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough to 
>> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an 
>> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with 
>> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's 
>> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in the 
>> freehub body. 
>>
>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, hard 
>> to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to move it 
>> around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 
>>
>> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. That 
>> will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the process. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>
>>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
>>> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>>
 Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated hole 
 is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  

 I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
 Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used 
 it 
 on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  

 On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
 dropout alignment gauge, also useful:

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok

 Jim in Rochester, NY

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:

> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>
>> Hey Eric,
>>
>> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
>> sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others 
>> for 
>> getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
>> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references 
>> to 
>> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I 
>> bought 
>> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 
>>
>> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else 
>> going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only 
>> noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go 
>> into 
>> the wheel. may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the 
>> derailer 
>> may have any wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in 
>> another derailer or chain to test the system? 
>>
>> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching 
>> the final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would 
>> be 
>> time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would 
>> do 
>> that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 
>>
>> -stephen
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:
>>
>>> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur 
>>> hanger will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is 
>>> so 
>>> bent that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the 
>>> chain 
>>> skip. Skipping chains are caused by worn or 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the 
M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing 
a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. 

I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> Thanks for the replies, everyone. 
>
> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain is 
> under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're in 
> the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no amount 
> of trimming is fixing the issue. 
>
> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was new 
> in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough to 
> wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an 
> 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with 
> TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's 
> running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in the 
> freehub body. 
>
> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, hard 
> to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to move it 
> around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 
>
> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. That 
> will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the process. 
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>
>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
>> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>>
>>> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated hole 
>>> is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  
>>>
>>> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
>>> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used it 
>>> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  
>>>
>>> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
>>> dropout alignment gauge, also useful:
>>>
>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok
>>>
>>> Jim in Rochester, NY
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool

 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:

> Hey Eric,
>
> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
> sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others 
> for 
> getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references 
> to 
> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought 
> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 
>
> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else 
> going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only 
> noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go 
> into 
> the wheel. may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer 
> may have any wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in 
> another derailer or chain to test the system? 
>
> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching 
> the final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would 
> be 
> time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would 
> do 
> that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 
>
> -stephen
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:
>
>> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur 
>> hanger will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is 
>> so 
>> bent that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the 
>> chain 
>> skip. Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. 
>> Have you checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and 
>> cassette? 
>>
>> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
>> sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
>> but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
>> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.
>>
>> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger 
>> alignment tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid 
>> for 
>> itself many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an 
>> expensive, name-brand tool, but it works.
>>
>> CJ
>>

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. 

A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain is 
under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're in 
the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no amount 
of trimming is fixing the issue. 

I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was new in 
summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough to wear 
out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an 11-32. 
The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with TA 
Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's 
running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in the 
freehub body. 

The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, hard 
to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to move it 
around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 

I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. That will 
be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the process. 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:

> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 
>
> Jim
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:
>
>> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated hole 
>> is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  
>>
>> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
>> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used it 
>> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  
>>
>> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
>> dropout alignment gauge, also useful:
>>
>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok
>>
>> Jim in Rochester, NY
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>>
 Hey Eric,

 Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
 sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others for 
 getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
 yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references 
 to 
 the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought 
 after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 

 I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else going 
 on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only noticeable 
 that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go into the 
 wheel. 
 may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer may have 
 any 
 wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in another derailer 
 or 
 chain to test the system? 

 I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching the 
 final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would be 
 time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would 
 do 
 that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 

 -stephen
 On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:

> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger 
> will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent 
> that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain 
> skip. 
> Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have 
> you 
> checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 
>
> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
> sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
> but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.
>
> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger 
> alignment tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid 
> for 
> itself many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an 
> expensive, name-brand tool, but it works.
>
> CJ
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
> Okay, some mild updates. 
>
> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two 
> dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and 
> during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and 
> the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test 
> ride. Repeat. 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Jim Whorton]

Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the 
derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 

Jim

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote:

> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated hole is 
> the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  
>
> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
> Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used it 
> on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  
>
> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade 
> dropout alignment gauge, also useful:
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok
>
> Jim in Rochester, NY
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>
>> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool
>>
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Eric,
>>>
>>> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
>>> sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others for 
>>> getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
>>> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references to 
>>> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought 
>>> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 
>>>
>>> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else going 
>>> on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only noticeable 
>>> that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go into the wheel. 
>>> may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer may have any 
>>> wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in another derailer or 
>>> chain to test the system? 
>>>
>>> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching the 
>>> final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would be 
>>> time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would do 
>>> that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 
>>>
>>> -stephen
>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:
>>>
 Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger 
 will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent 
 that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain 
 skip. 
 Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you 
 checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 

 Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
 sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
 but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
 threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.

 If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment 
 tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself 
 many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, 
 name-brand tool, but it works.

 CJ


 On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 Okay, some mild updates. 

 I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two 
 dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and 
 during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and 
 the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test 
 ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 

 I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight 
 edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer 
 hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane 
 with one another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still 
 jumps. 

 I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have 
 so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
 mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
 elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
 feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
 nicely each time. 

 One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and 
 hanger alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are 
 aligned. *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too 
 much torque on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the 
 frame if they look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I 
 talked to Grant about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to 
 happen, 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Jim Whorton]

Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated hole is 
the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  

I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park 
Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used it 
on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  

On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade dropout 
alignment gauge, also useful:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok

Jim in Rochester, NY

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:

> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool
>
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:
>
>> Hey Eric,
>>
>> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but 
>> sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others for 
>> getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for 
>> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references to 
>> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought 
>> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 
>>
>> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else going 
>> on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only noticeable 
>> that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go into the wheel. 
>> may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer may have any 
>> wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in another derailer or 
>> chain to test the system? 
>>
>> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching the 
>> final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would be 
>> time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would do 
>> that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 
>>
>> -stephen
>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:
>>
>>> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger 
>>> will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent 
>>> that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain skip. 
>>> Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you 
>>> checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 
>>>
>>> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
>>> sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
>>> but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
>>> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.
>>>
>>> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment 
>>> tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself 
>>> many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, 
>>> name-brand tool, but it works.
>>>
>>> CJ
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Okay, some mild updates. 
>>>
>>> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two 
>>> dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and 
>>> during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and 
>>> the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test 
>>> ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 
>>>
>>> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight 
>>> edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer 
>>> hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane 
>>> with one another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still 
>>> jumps. 
>>>
>>> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have 
>>> so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
>>> mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
>>> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
>>> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
>>> nicely each time. 
>>>
>>> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and 
>>> hanger alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are 
>>> aligned. *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too 
>>> much torque on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the 
>>> frame if they look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I 
>>> talked to Grant about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to 
>>> happen, either. He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger 
>>> through 180º of motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not 
>>> moving mine nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant 
>>> Petersen say "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of 
>>> memorable quotes 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Stephen]

https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote:

> Hey Eric,
>
> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but sheesh, 
> what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others for getting 
> a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for yourself. i 
> bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references to the hub vs 
> rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought after 
> knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 
>
> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else going on 
> to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only noticeable that 
> when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go into the wheel. may 
> depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer may have any 
> wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in another derailer or 
> chain to test the system? 
>
> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching the 
> final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would be 
> time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would do 
> that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 
>
> -stephen
> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:
>
>> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger 
>> will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent 
>> that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain skip. 
>> Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you 
>> checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 
>>
>> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
>> sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
>> but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
>> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.
>>
>> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment 
>> tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself 
>> many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, 
>> name-brand tool, but it works.
>>
>> CJ
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Okay, some mild updates. 
>>
>> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two 
>> dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and 
>> during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and 
>> the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test 
>> ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 
>>
>> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight 
>> edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer 
>> hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane 
>> with one another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still 
>> jumps. 
>>
>> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have 
>> so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
>> mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
>> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
>> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
>> nicely each time. 
>>
>> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
>> alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
>> *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque 
>> on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they 
>> look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant 
>> about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. 
>> He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of 
>> motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine 
>> nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say 
>> "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable 
>> quotes by notable people. 
>>
>> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
>> so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
>> end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 
>>
>> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and 
>> shape it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and 
>> have worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has 
>> sold his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
>> messages. 
>>
>> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer 
>> hanger alignment tool and try it 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Stephen]

Hey Eric,

Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but sheesh, 
what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others for getting 
a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for yourself. i 
bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references to the hub vs 
rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought after 
knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 

I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else going on 
to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only noticeable that 
when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go into the wheel. may 
depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer may have any 
wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in another derailer or 
chain to test the system? 

I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching the 
final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would be 
time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would do 
that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 

-stephen
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:

> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger 
> will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent 
> that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain skip. 
> Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you 
> checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 
>
> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
> sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
> but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
> threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.
>
> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment 
> tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself 
> many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, 
> name-brand tool, but it works.
>
> CJ
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Okay, some mild updates. 
>
> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two dozen 
> times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and during 
> nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and the 
> derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test ride. 
> Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 
>
> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight edges, 
> trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer hanger 
> where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane with one 
> another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still jumps. 
>
> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have so 
> far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
> mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
> nicely each time. 
>
> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
> alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
> *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque 
> on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they 
> look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant 
> about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. 
> He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of 
> motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine 
> nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say 
> "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable 
> quotes by notable people. 
>
> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
> so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
> end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 
>
> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and shape 
> it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and have 
> worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has sold 
> his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
> messages. 
>
> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer hanger 
> alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the Park Tool 
> DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm not afraid 
> to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 
>
> Full options going forward (as I see them, 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[CJ]

Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger will 
cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent that the 
derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain skip. Skipping 
chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you checked 
your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 

Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still 
sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, 
but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with 
threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.

If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment 
tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself 
many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, 
name-brand tool, but it works.

CJ


On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

Okay, some mild updates. 

I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two dozen 
times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and during 
nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and the 
derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test ride. 
Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 

I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight edges, 
trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer hanger 
where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane with one 
another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still jumps. 

I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have so 
far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
nicely each time. 

One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
*But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque on 
the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they look 
at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant about 
this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. He 
shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of motion 
several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine nearly as 
much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say "Steel is 
magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable quotes by 
notable people. 

There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 

I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and shape 
it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and have 
worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has sold 
his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
messages. 

Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer hanger 
alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the Park Tool 
DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm not afraid 
to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 

Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as always): 

   - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I give up and 
   advance to next option
   - Take it to a shop
  - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't think that's 
  going to happen but they are audibly and visibly weary. 
  - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want to take my 
  bikes to them
   - Get a new dropout welded onto the bike
  - I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a builder in my area
  - Contacted three people. One retired, the other two haven't 
  responded. 
   - Send it to Rivendell
  - Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. Cool!
  - Grant said to send the bike stripped down, no fork. How are they 
  going to align and test it to see if the chain jumps? 
  - I don't relly want to freight the bike coast-to-coast twice. 
  Not a dealbreaker, tho. 
  - Grant said if Mark or Antonio can't get it he knows a builder who 
  can do the repair but it could be three months before I get the bike back.
  - This leads me back to...
   - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself 

If you've made it this far, wow, you are invested in this repair! Thanks 
for checking in. I'll post more updates as they develop. 

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:03:10 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Wesley]

Last fall I wrecked a derailer and bent the hanger when I shifted a 
short-cage rear der into the big-big combination. I bought a new derailer 
and aligned the dropout using this 
clever hack (which I could swear I learned of from this 
list): https://youtu.be/TnwreRrorIA

Anyway, it sounds to me like after all these tries that your derailer 
hanger is aligned, and that the problem lies elsewhere. Perhaps a bent cog 
on the cassette? Or the new derailer you're trying has some flaw - e.g. the 
upper pulley can wander? A stiff link in the chain? I can't think of a 
reason that the impact to shifter, cable, and housing would be the issue, 
but maybe there is one I haven't thought of?

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains – however 
implausible – must be the truth."
-Wes
On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 6:00:36 AM UTC-7 Bill Schairer wrote:

> I vote for buy a gauge and do it yourself.  I bought a Park DAG years ago 
> after a wreck and have used it many, many times since.  No regrets.  
> Haven't I watched your build videos?  You need this tool regardless.  That 
> said, if a shop used one and aligned the hanger, I have a lot of trouble 
> thinking the hanger is responsible for the jumping. In my experience, a 
> misaligned hanger results in poor shifting, noisy drivetrain, and 
> difficulty adjusting the high and low stops.  If it is jumping between 
> gears, maybe, but then should be happening in all gears or at least never 
> seem quite right no matter which gear?  If it is jumping on the same gear, 
> I'd be thinking chain, cassette and/or chainrings?
>
> Bill S
> San Diego
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-7 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Okay, some mild updates. 
>>
>> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two 
>> dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and 
>> during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and 
>> the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test 
>> ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 
>>
>> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight 
>> edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer 
>> hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane 
>> with one another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still 
>> jumps. 
>>
>> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have 
>> so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
>> mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
>> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
>> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
>> nicely each time. 
>>
>> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
>> alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
>> *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque 
>> on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they 
>> look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant 
>> about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. 
>> He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of 
>> motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine 
>> nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say 
>> "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable 
>> quotes by notable people. 
>>
>> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
>> so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
>> end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 
>>
>> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and 
>> shape it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and 
>> have worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has 
>> sold his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
>> messages. 
>>
>> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer 
>> hanger alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the 
>> Park Tool DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm 
>> not afraid to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 
>>
>> Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as 
>> always): 
>>
>>- Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I give up 
>>and advance to next option
>>- Take it to a shop
>>   - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't think that's 
>>   going to happen but they are audibly and visibly weary. 
>>   - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want to take 
>>   my bikes to them
>>- Get a new dropout welded onto the bike
>>  

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Bill Schairer]

I vote for buy a gauge and do it yourself.  I bought a Park DAG years ago 
after a wreck and have used it many, many times since.  No regrets.  
Haven't I watched your build videos?  You need this tool regardless.  That 
said, if a shop used one and aligned the hanger, I have a lot of trouble 
thinking the hanger is responsible for the jumping. In my experience, a 
misaligned hanger results in poor shifting, noisy drivetrain, and 
difficulty adjusting the high and low stops.  If it is jumping between 
gears, maybe, but then should be happening in all gears or at least never 
seem quite right no matter which gear?  If it is jumping on the same gear, 
I'd be thinking chain, cassette and/or chainrings?

Bill S
San Diego

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-7 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Okay, some mild updates. 
>
> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two dozen 
> times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and during 
> nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and the 
> derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test ride. 
> Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 
>
> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight edges, 
> trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer hanger 
> where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane with one 
> another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still jumps. 
>
> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have so 
> far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
> mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
> elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
> feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
> nicely each time. 
>
> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
> alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
> *But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque 
> on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they 
> look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant 
> about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. 
> He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of 
> motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine 
> nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say 
> "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable 
> quotes by notable people. 
>
> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
> so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
> end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 
>
> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and shape 
> it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and have 
> worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has sold 
> his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
> messages. 
>
> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer hanger 
> alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the Park Tool 
> DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm not afraid 
> to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 
>
> Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as always): 
>
>- Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I give up 
>and advance to next option
>- Take it to a shop
>   - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't think that's 
>   going to happen but they are audibly and visibly weary. 
>   - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want to take my 
>   bikes to them
>- Get a new dropout welded onto the bike
>   - I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a builder in my area
>   - Contacted three people. One retired, the other two haven't 
>   responded. 
>- Send it to Rivendell
>   - Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. Cool!
>   - Grant said to send the bike stripped down, no fork. How are they 
>   going to align and test it to see if the chain jumps? 
>   - I don't relly want to freight the bike coast-to-coast twice. 
>   Not a dealbreaker, tho. 
>   - Grant said if Mark or Antonio can't get it he knows a builder who 
>   can do the repair but it could be three months before I get the bike 
> back.
>   - This leads me back to...
>- Buy a gauge and adjust it myself 
>
> If you've made it this far, wow, you are invested in this repair! Thanks 
> for checking in. I'll post more updates as they develop. 
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:03:10 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:
>
>> Thanks, 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[JohnS]

A project is always a good excuse for buying a new tool, as a friend of my 
use to say. May as well splurge on the alignment tool and see how it works 
out. Personally I'm suspicions of the elongated bolt hole, not sure why, 
but it doesn't look good. Any frame builders in a hour or two drive from 
you? If I were in your shoes I would take it to Bilenky Cycle Works 
 in Philly, I've heard good things about them and 
they always have great looking bikes at the Philly Bike Expo.

Good luck,
JohnS

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:49:34 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Your local shops sound like non-starters, if the one isn't confident and 
> the other is bad juju. Freighting the bike coast-to-coast and back  to Riv  
> + their labor   sounds like it's not a deal-breaker. Sounds like the west 
> coast is the mecca for framebuilders. I have no idea about the east coast 
> or mid-US. I wonder if you could get a second opinion from Mark 
> Nobilette...although I would not be surprised if he is retired or 
> contemplating retirement. 
>
>  I've bought 3 bikes from Riv2 customs and many parts and while the 
> wait time may be long, I would totally trust them to move heaven and earth 
> to get your bike right. If it means that much to you I would put myself in 
> their hands. You have that established  relationship with them. 
>
> My .002CAD...good luck. I'm sure you'll resolve this one way or another
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 10:21:49 PM UTC-5 Ryan wrote:
>
>> And sheep in your poster , if I recall correctly. Very bucolic
>>
>> I feel you  about the freight. Are there no reputable builders closer to 
>> you who could do the repair? In a neighbouring state perhaps?
>>
>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be reasonable. 
>>> I worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little painful and the 
>>> time without the bike could be considerable depending on how it shakes out. 
>>>
>>> The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator who did 
>>> yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like that. Hills, dirt 
>>> road, country church. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>>>
 Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are 
 very ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? 
 Who 
 will no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost

 Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of 
 the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a 
 galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a 
 friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time was a 
 bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have

 On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis wrote:

> That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and 
> carefully remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be 
> fine. The rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue 
> is probably trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 
>
> Thanks,
>
> Reginald Alexis
>
> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. 
>> I rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden 
>> with 
>> fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 
>>
>> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 
>> 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank 
>> while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a 
>> go 
>> as a single speed. 
>>
>> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that 
>> time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the 
>> spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun!
>>
>> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png]
>>
>> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can 
>> be bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame 
>> builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them 
>> (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my 
>> previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the replacements I 
>> picked 
>> up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 
>>
>> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they 
>> could help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied 
>> "I 
>> need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"
>>
>> Hope your weekend rides weren't so 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Ryan]

Your local shops sound like non-starters, if the one isn't confident and 
the other is bad juju. Freighting the bike coast-to-coast and back  to Riv  
+ their labor   sounds like it's not a deal-breaker. Sounds like the west 
coast is the mecca for framebuilders. I have no idea about the east coast 
or mid-US. I wonder if you could get a second opinion from Mark 
Nobilette...although I would not be surprised if he is retired or 
contemplating retirement. 

 I've bought 3 bikes from Riv2 customs and many parts and while the 
wait time may be long, I would totally trust them to move heaven and earth 
to get your bike right. If it means that much to you I would put myself in 
their hands. You have that established  relationship with them. 

My .002CAD...good luck. I'm sure you'll resolve this one way or another

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 10:21:49 PM UTC-5 Ryan wrote:

> And sheep in your poster , if I recall correctly. Very bucolic
>
> I feel you  about the freight. Are there no reputable builders closer to 
> you who could do the repair? In a neighbouring state perhaps?
>
> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be reasonable. I 
>> worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little painful and the time 
>> without the bike could be considerable depending on how it shakes out. 
>>
>> The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator who did 
>> yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like that. Hills, dirt 
>> road, country church. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are 
>>> very ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? Who 
>>> will no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost
>>>
>>> Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of 
>>> the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a 
>>> galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a 
>>> friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time was a 
>>> bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis wrote:
>>>
 That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and 
 carefully remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be 
 fine. The rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue 
 is probably trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 

 Thanks,

 Reginald Alexis

 On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. 
> I rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with 
> fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 
>
> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 
> 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank 
> while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a 
> go 
> as a single speed. 
>
> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that 
> time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the 
> spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun!
>
> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png]
>
> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can 
> be bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame 
> builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them 
> (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my 
> previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the replacements I 
> picked 
> up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 
>
> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they 
> could help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied 
> "I 
> need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"
>
> Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 
>
> Eric
>


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[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Ryan]

And sheep in your poster , if I recall correctly. Very bucolic

I feel you  about the freight. Are there no reputable builders closer to 
you who could do the repair? In a neighbouring state perhaps?

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be reasonable. I 
> worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little painful and the time 
> without the bike could be considerable depending on how it shakes out. 
>
> The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator who did 
> yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like that. Hills, dirt 
> road, country church. 
>
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>
>> Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are very 
>> ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? Who will 
>> no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost
>>
>> Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of 
>> the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a 
>> galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a 
>> friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time was a 
>> bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis wrote:
>>
>>> That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and 
>>> carefully remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be 
>>> fine. The rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue 
>>> is probably trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Reginald Alexis
>>>
>>> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. I 
 rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with 
 fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 

 When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 
 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank 
 while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a 
 go 
 as a single speed. 

 I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that 
 time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the 
 spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun!

 [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png]

 This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can 
 be bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame 
 builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them 
 (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my 
 previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the replacements I picked 
 up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 

 While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they could 
 help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied "I 
 need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"

 Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 

 Eric

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Okay, some mild updates. 

I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two dozen 
times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and during 
nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and the 
derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test ride. 
Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 

I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight edges, 
trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer hanger 
where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane with one 
another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still jumps. 

I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have so 
far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how 
mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is 
elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads 
feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in 
nicely each time. 

One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger 
alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. 
*But* they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque on 
the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they look 
at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant about 
this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. He 
shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of motion 
several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine nearly as 
much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say "Steel is 
magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable quotes by 
notable people. 

There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there 
so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll 
end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 

I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and shape 
it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and have 
worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has sold 
his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my 
messages. 

Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer hanger 
alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the Park Tool 
DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm not afraid 
to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 

Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as always): 

   - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I give up and 
   advance to next option
   - Take it to a shop
  - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't think that's 
  going to happen but they are audibly and visibly weary. 
  - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want to take my 
  bikes to them
   - Get a new dropout welded onto the bike
  - I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a builder in my area
  - Contacted three people. One retired, the other two haven't 
  responded. 
   - Send it to Rivendell
  - Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. Cool!
  - Grant said to send the bike stripped down, no fork. How are they 
  going to align and test it to see if the chain jumps? 
  - I don't relly want to freight the bike coast-to-coast twice. 
  Not a dealbreaker, tho. 
  - Grant said if Mark or Antonio can't get it he knows a builder who 
  can do the repair but it could be three months before I get the bike back.
  - This leads me back to...
   - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself 

If you've made it this far, wow, you are invested in this repair! Thanks 
for checking in. I'll post more updates as they develop. 

On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:03:10 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be reasonable. I 
> worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little painful and the time 
> without the bike could be considerable depending on how it shakes out. 
>
> The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator who did 
> yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like that. Hills, dirt 
> road, country church. 
>
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>
>> Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are very 
>> ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? Who will 
>> no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost
>>
>> Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of 
>> the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a 
>> galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a 
>> friend of mine who built many of my 

[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be reasonable. I 
worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little painful and the time 
without the bike could be considerable depending on how it shakes out. 

The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator who did 
yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like that. Hills, dirt 
road, country church. 

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are very 
> ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? Who will 
> no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost
>
> Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of the 
> Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a 
> galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a 
> friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time was a 
> bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have
>
> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis wrote:
>
>> That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and carefully 
>> remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be fine. The 
>> rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue is probably 
>> trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Reginald Alexis
>>
>> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. I 
>>> rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with 
>>> fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 
>>>
>>> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 90º. 
>>> And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank while 
>>> off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a go as a 
>>> single speed. 
>>>
>>> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that 
>>> time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the 
>>> spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun!
>>>
>>> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png]
>>>
>>> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can be 
>>> bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame builder. 
>>> That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them (including this 
>>> one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my previous Cyclone 
>>> recently failed. This is one of the replacements I picked up. It was in 
>>> excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 
>>>
>>> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they could 
>>> help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied "I 
>>> need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"
>>>
>>> Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Ryan]

Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are very 
ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? Who will 
no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost

Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of the 
Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a 
galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a 
friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time was a 
bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have

On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis wrote:

> That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and carefully 
> remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be fine. The 
> rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue is probably 
> trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 
>
> Thanks,
>
> Reginald Alexis
>
> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. I 
>> rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with 
>> fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 
>>
>> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 90º. 
>> And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank while 
>> off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a go as a 
>> single speed. 
>>
>> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that time 
>> the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the spokes and 
>> throwing the chain. It was really fun!
>>
>> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png]
>>
>> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can be 
>> bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame builder. 
>> That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them (including this 
>> one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my previous Cyclone 
>> recently failed. This is one of the replacements I picked up. It was in 
>> excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 
>>
>> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they could 
>> help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied "I 
>> need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"
>>
>> Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 
>>
>> Eric
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[R. Alexis]

That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and carefully 
remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be fine. The 
rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue is probably 
trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. I 
> rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with 
> fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 
>
> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 90º. 
> And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank while 
> off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a go as a 
> single speed. 
>
> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that time 
> the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the spokes and 
> throwing the chain. It was really fun!
>
> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png]
>
> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can be 
> bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame builder. 
> That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them (including this 
> one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my previous Cyclone 
> recently failed. This is one of the replacements I picked up. It was in 
> excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 
>
> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they could 
> help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied "I 
> need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"
>
> Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 
>
> Eric
>

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