Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
Gene Fieg gf...@cst.edu wrote: Heidrun, as to the why, I have no idea. Perhaps, it had to do with way computers read letters only, and by putting a space between them, it could read better. It might even go further back than that, to card filing rules--at least for the spacing in headings. -- Mark K. Ehlert Minitex http://www.minitex.umn.edu/
Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
This practice almost certainly predates computer filing. In A.L.A. rules for filing cataloging cards (Chicago: ALA, 1942), p. 19, we see the example: Brown, A. G. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of M. E. Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 3:11 AM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons Gene Fieg gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu wrote: Heidrun, as to the why, I have no idea. Perhaps, it had to do with way computers read letters only, and by putting a space between them, it could read better. It might even go further back than that, to card filing rules--at least for the spacing in headings. -- Mark K. Ehlert Minitex http://www.minitex.umn.edu/
[RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
I am puzzled by the treatment of initials in names of persons under RDA. According to AACR2, I believe there was never a space between two or more initials, regardless whether the initials appeared in the bibliographic description (e.g. in the statement of responsibility) or in a heading or reference. An example in 1.1.F4. reads edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird, and one in 22.5A1. reads Byatt, A.S.. So, the treatment was consistent. Now in RDA, initials in the bibliographic description are still transcribed without internal spaces, e.g. edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird (example in 1.7.6). Yet they are transcribed with spaces in preferred or variant names of persons, e.g. Rowling, J. K. (example in 8.5.6.1). I find it difficult to understand why the rule was changed with respect to preferred/variant names only. Wouldn't it be much easier to apply the same custom in both cases? In Germany, we've always put spaces between initials in names of persons, regardless whether these appear in the bibliographic description or in headings/references. I think this is mainly due to matters of indexing. Many systems here simply ignore full stops in indexing. So without internal spaces we would end up with PC in the index instead of P and C. Heidrun -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
As I understand it, and I could be wrong here. In the description of the item in hand, there are no spaces between initials, but in the authority record there are. This has been the common practice at least since AACR2 and I think it is in the NACO manual. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: I am puzzled by the treatment of initials in names of persons under RDA. According to AACR2, I believe there was never a space between two or more initials, regardless whether the initials appeared in the bibliographic description (e.g. in the statement of responsibility) or in a heading or reference. An example in 1.1.F4. reads edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird, and one in 22.5A1. reads Byatt, A.S.. So, the treatment was consistent. Now in RDA, initials in the bibliographic description are still transcribed without internal spaces, e.g. edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird (example in 1.7.6). Yet they are transcribed with spaces in preferred or variant names of persons, e.g. Rowling, J. K. (example in 8.5.6.1). I find it difficult to understand why the rule was changed with respect to preferred/variant names only. Wouldn't it be much easier to apply the same custom in both cases? In Germany, we've always put spaces between initials in names of persons, regardless whether these appear in the bibliographic description or in headings/references. I think this is mainly due to matters of indexing. Many systems here simply ignore full stops in indexing. So without internal spaces we would end up with PC in the index instead of P and C. Heidrun -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
Thanks, Gene. I hadn't realized spaces between initials have already been common practice in authority records for such a long time (oh dear, still so many things I don't know about Anglo-American cataloguing...). But why are the two cases treated differently, in the first place? I know that ISBD calls for no spaces (A.6.5: Initials and acronyms are recorded without internal spaces, regardless of how they are presented on the resource.), a rule which we've been happily ignoring in Germany. So maybe that's the reason for RDA 1.7.6. But then, why do it differently in authority records? I suppose there must be an advantage in having internal spaces in authority data (easier for indexing?), and then I don't see why the same advantage shouldn't apply to similar data in the bibliographic description. So, it's still a bit of a mystery to me, and I'd be glad if somebody could enlighten me. Heidrun Gene Fieg wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong here. In the description of the item in hand, there are no spaces between initials, but in the authority record there are. This has been the common practice at least since AACR2 and I think it is in the NACO manual. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de mailto:wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: I am puzzled by the treatment of initials in names of persons under RDA. According to AACR2, I believe there was never a space between two or more initials, regardless whether the initials appeared in the bibliographic description (e.g. in the statement of responsibility) or in a heading or reference. An example in 1.1.F4. reads edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird, and one in 22.5A1. reads Byatt, A.S.. So, the treatment was consistent. Now in RDA, initials in the bibliographic description are still transcribed without internal spaces, e.g. edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird (example in 1.7.6). Yet they are transcribed with spaces in preferred or variant names of persons, e.g. Rowling, J. K. (example in 8.5.6.1). I find it difficult to understand why the rule was changed with respect to preferred/variant names only. Wouldn't it be much easier to apply the same custom in both cases? In Germany, we've always put spaces between initials in names of persons, regardless whether these appear in the bibliographic description or in headings/references. I think this is mainly due to matters of indexing. Many systems here simply ignore full stops in indexing. So without internal spaces we would end up with PC in the index instead of P and C. Heidrun -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi http://www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu mailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only. -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi
Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
Practice under RDA has not changed from what it was under AACR2: in the descriptive portion of the record, e.g. statements of responsibility, notes, and the like, initials with full stops are recorded without intervening spaces, for example: by S.J. Perelman. The RDA instruction that continues this practice is found at 1.7.6, which governs transcription (as opposed to formulation of access points). In authorized access points, on the other hand, we have always included a space between initials that are separated by full stops, for the exact reasons of indexing that you mention, Heidrun. For example: 100 1_ $a Lane, A. N. S. [see name authority record n 96051095] The RDA instruction to continue this practice is in chapter 8, which governs the construction of authorized points -- see 8.5.6.1. (a): leave a space between a full stop following an initial representing a forename or surname and the subsequent initial or name. So yes, there is one practice that applies to transcription of information found in the source, and another that applies to the formulation of access points. But there has been no change in practice. AACR2 didn't actually speak to the question of spacing after initials. The example you give from 22.5A1 is just that, an example, and examples in AACR2 are always illustrative, not prescriptive (see AACR2 0.14). So it was left to a Library of Congress Rule Interpretation to determine actual practice, and that determination is at LCRI 22.1B, under the caption: Punctuation/Spacing Conventions in Personal Name Heading Access Points in Name Authority and Bibliographic Records where it states: Spaces. If the name contains two or more forenames represented by initials, consists entirely of initials, or consists entirely of separate letters that are not initials, input a single space between the initials/letters in all cases. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: I am puzzled by the treatment of initials in names of persons under RDA. According to AACR2, I believe there was never a space between two or more initials, regardless whether the initials appeared in the bibliographic description (e.g. in the statement of responsibility) or in a heading or reference. An example in 1.1.F4. reads edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird, and one in 22.5A1. reads Byatt, A.S.. So, the treatment was consistent. Now in RDA, initials in the bibliographic description are still transcribed without internal spaces, e.g. edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird (example in 1.7.6). Yet they are transcribed with spaces in preferred or variant names of persons, e.g. Rowling, J. K. (example in 8.5.6.1). I find it difficult to understand why the rule was changed with respect to preferred/variant names only. Wouldn't it be much easier to apply the same custom in both cases? In Germany, we've always put spaces between initials in names of persons, regardless whether these appear in the bibliographic description or in headings/references. I think this is mainly due to matters of indexing. Many systems here simply ignore full stops in indexing. So without internal spaces we would end up with PC in the index instead of P and C. Heidrun -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi -- Charles Croissant Senior Catalog Librarian Pius XII Memorial Library Saint Louis University St. Louis, MO 63108
Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
Heidrun, as to the why, I have no idea. Perhaps, it had to do with way computers read letters only, and by putting a space between them, it could read better. For instance, at least under AACR2/LCRI, Ph.D is treated as though it were two words; therefore, we transcribe it as Ph. D. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: Thanks, Gene. I hadn't realized spaces between initials have already been common practice in authority records for such a long time (oh dear, still so many things I don't know about Anglo-American cataloguing...). But why are the two cases treated differently, in the first place? I know that ISBD calls for no spaces (A.6.5: Initials and acronyms are recorded without internal spaces, regardless of how they are presented on the resource.), a rule which we've been happily ignoring in Germany. So maybe that's the reason for RDA 1.7.6. But then, why do it differently in authority records? I suppose there must be an advantage in having internal spaces in authority data (easier for indexing?), and then I don't see why the same advantage shouldn't apply to similar data in the bibliographic description. So, it's still a bit of a mystery to me, and I'd be glad if somebody could enlighten me. Heidrun Gene Fieg wrote: As I understand it, and I could be wrong here. In the description of the item in hand, there are no spaces between initials, but in the authority record there are. This has been the common practice at least since AACR2 and I think it is in the NACO manual. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: I am puzzled by the treatment of initials in names of persons under RDA. According to AACR2, I believe there was never a space between two or more initials, regardless whether the initials appeared in the bibliographic description (e.g. in the statement of responsibility) or in a heading or reference. An example in 1.1.F4. reads edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird, and one in 22.5A1. reads Byatt, A.S.. So, the treatment was consistent. Now in RDA, initials in the bibliographic description are still transcribed without internal spaces, e.g. edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird (example in 1.7.6). Yet they are transcribed with spaces in preferred or variant names of persons, e.g. Rowling, J. K. (example in 8.5.6.1). I find it difficult to understand why the rule was changed with respect to preferred/variant names only. Wouldn't it be much easier to apply the same custom in both cases? In Germany, we've always put spaces between initials in names of persons, regardless whether these appear in the bibliographic description or in headings/references. I think this is mainly due to matters of indexing. Many systems here simply ignore full stops in indexing. So without internal spaces we would end up with PC in the index instead of P and C. Heidrun -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only. -- - Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A. Stuttgart Media University Faculty of Information and Communication Wolframstr. 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germanywww.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] Initials in names of persons
Charles, Thank you, that was very helpful indeed. But I wonder: Was it never discussed whether it might be a good idea to change the practice for transcription, in order to align it with the practice for access points? There would be three advantages: #1: consistent display in catalogs #2: no problems with keyword indexing of titles and statements of responsibility #3: easier for catalogers (only one rule to remember for initials in names of persons instead of two) LCCN 00339347 is a nice example for #1. The Permalink http://lccn.loc.gov/00339347 doesn't seem to work as it should today, so here are the main things users are shown in LC's catalog (the old one): *Main title:* Lieber C.G. Jung : was ich Ihnen schon immer sagen wollte / Marianne Schiess (Hrsg.) ; mit Beitra?gen von Ruth Ammann ... [et al.]. *Related names:* Jung, C. G. (Carl Gustav), 1875-1961. Schiess, Marianne. Ammann, Ruth, 1934- *Subjects:* Jung, C. G. (Carl Gustav), 1875-1961. Jungian psychology. Perhaps users don't care about details like this anyway, but I still find it somwehat confusing to have C.G. in the title and C. G. in the entries. A good example for #2 is LCCN 88034257 (permalink would be http://lccn.loc.gov/88034257): C.G. Jung and the humanities : toward a hermeneutics of culture / edited by Karin Barnaby and Pellegrino D'Acierno. I tried a title keyword search in LC's catalog with c g jung humanities, which was successful - bravo, well done! Then I tried the catalog of the British Library. A title keyword search for c g jung humanities got one result (a record where there seems to be a mistake in the title, as it has a space between the initials). A title keyword search for cg jung humanities, on the other hand, got three results (in all of them, there is no space between the initials). I conclude that although it is possible to come up with adequate indexing for initials without spaces, not all catalogs seem to have managed that (probably because some additional effort is needed). It certainly would be interesting to try out some more catalogs. Here in Germany, we will have to discuss whether we should give up our practice of always using internal spaces, or whether we should make use of the first alternative in RDA 1.7.1. in this case (which allows to use in-house guidelines instead of the rules in 1.7.2-1.7.9). Heidrun Charles Croissant wrote: Practice under RDA has not changed from what it was under AACR2: in the descriptive portion of the record, e.g. statements of responsibility, notes, and the like, initials with full stops are recorded without intervening spaces, for example: by S.J. Perelman. The RDA instruction that continues this practice is found at 1.7.6, which governs transcription (as opposed to formulation of access points). In authorized access points, on the other hand, we have always included a space between initials that are separated by full stops, for the exact reasons of indexing that you mention, Heidrun. For example: 100 1_ $a Lane, A. N. S. [see name authority record n 96051095] The RDA instruction to continue this practice is in chapter 8, which governs the construction of authorized points -- see 8.5.6.1. (a): leave a space between a full stop following an initial representing a forename or surname and the subsequent initial or name. So yes, there is one practice that applies to transcription of information found in the source, and another that applies to the formulation of access points. But there has been no change in practice. AACR2 didn't actually speak to the question of spacing after initials. The example you give from 22.5A1 is just that, an example, and examples in AACR2 are always illustrative, not prescriptive (see AACR2 0.14). So it was left to a Library of Congress Rule Interpretation to determine actual practice, and that determination is at LCRI 22.1B, under the caption: Punctuation/Spacing Conventions in Personal Name Heading Access Points in Name Authority and Bibliographic Records where it states:Spaces. If the name contains two or more forenames represented by initials, consists entirely of initials, or consists entirely of separate letters that are not initials, input a single space between the initials/letters in all cases. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de mailto:wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote: I am puzzled by the treatment of initials in names of persons under RDA. According to AACR2, I believe there was never a space between two or more initials, regardless whether the initials appeared in the bibliographic description (e.g. in the statement of responsibility) or in a heading or reference. An example in 1.1.F4. reads edited by P.C. Wason and P.N. Johnson-Laird, and one in 22.5A1. reads Byatt, A.S.. So, the treatment was consistent. Now in RDA, initials in the bibliographic description
