Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Gene Fieg]

For a research library the pagination of the bibliography can be very
important, as the the graduate student creates a bibliography for his/her
thesis.




On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Robert Maxwell wrote:

>  You’re right, Deborah, RDA considers this is an attribute of the
> expression and so theoretically the page numbers aren’t relevant (a point
> that seems to have been missed by the author of the example) but as a
> practical matter people apparently are interested in knowing where the
> bibliography is in the resource (a manifestation attribute) or at least how
> extensive the bibliography is (which would probably be an expression
> attribute). Though actually, a bibliography that the creator includes with
> a work is part of the work, not any particular expression, right? So
> perhaps we could say the supplementary content element combines aspects of
> work and expression *and* manifestation, and we’ll need to resolve this
> before we can start making discrete ER descriptions. 
>
> ** **
>
> This isn’t the only place this occurs. Summarization of the content (7.10)
> is listed as an expression attribute but in my opinion a plot summary is in
> fact an attribute of the work. But the summarization can also be expression
> related. The examples under 7.10.1.3 include both: I’d say “Pictures the
> highlights of the play Julius Caesar …” is work-related, as is “A brief
> historical account up to the introduction of wave mechanics”, but “Episodes
> from the novel, read by Ed Begley” is related to a spoken word expression
> of the work. Same for the example about “Dune”. And so forth. Similarly the
> contents note, which is well-concealed in Chapter 25 for related works,
> usually does describe a relationship at the work level, but contents notes
> can be at the expression level as well (e.g. a contents note listing the
> French titles in a French translation of an anthology).
>
> ** **
>
> Bob
>
> ** **
>
> Robert L. Maxwell
>
> Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
>
> Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
>
> 6728 Harold B. Lee Library
>
> Brigham Young University
>
> Provo, UT 84602
>
> (801)422-5568 
>
> ** **
>
> "We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves
> to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
> [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Deborah Fritz
> *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 1:53 PM
>
> *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
> *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
>
>  ** **
>
> At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer
> you this.
>
> ** **
>
> Not everything that we thought of as ‘Notes’ under AACR, is a ‘Note’ in
> RDA.
>
> ** **
>
> The example you show, comes under the category of ‘Content’.
>
> ** **
>
> Content can either be at the Work level—applying to **every** expression
> of the work; or at the Expression level—applying to every manifestation of
> the expression.
>
> ** **
>
> Let’s leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be
> including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those
> references could be on different pages in different manifestations.
>
> ** **
>
> This particular type of content is covered under 
> *7.16<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html>
> *as Supplementary Content
>
> ** **
>
> The instruction on recording supplementary content says “*record* the
> nature of that content”
>
> ** **
>
> In 
> “Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12<http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc>’
> of the LC RDA Training documents, they say:
> Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements
>
> RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements.
>
> **· **For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as
> found on the resource.
>
> **· **For recorded elements, the found information is often
> adjusted (for example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted).
>
> ** **
>
> I can’t find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it
> certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was
> added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary)
>
> ** **
>
> So, if an instruction says ‘Transcribe’ you will put down exactly what you
> find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular
> instruction; 

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Robert Maxwell]

You're right, Deborah, RDA considers this is an attribute of the expression and 
so theoretically the page numbers aren't relevant (a point that seems to have 
been missed by the author of the example) but as a practical matter people 
apparently are interested in knowing where the bibliography is in the resource 
(a manifestation attribute) or at least how extensive the bibliography is 
(which would probably be an expression attribute). Though actually, a 
bibliography that the creator includes with a work is part of the work, not any 
particular expression, right? So perhaps we could say the supplementary content 
element combines aspects of work and expression and manifestation, and we'll 
need to resolve this before we can start making discrete ER descriptions.

This isn't the only place this occurs. Summarization of the content (7.10) is 
listed as an expression attribute but in my opinion a plot summary is in fact 
an attribute of the work. But the summarization can also be expression related. 
The examples under 7.10.1.3 include both: I'd say "Pictures the highlights of 
the play Julius Caesar ..." is work-related, as is "A brief historical account 
up to the introduction of wave mechanics", but "Episodes from the novel, read 
by Ed Begley" is related to a spoken word expression of the work. Same for the 
example about "Dune". And so forth. Similarly the contents note, which is 
well-concealed in Chapter 25 for related works, usually does describe a 
relationship at the work level, but contents notes can be at the expression 
level as well (e.g. a contents note listing the French titles in a French 
translation of an anthology).

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Deborah Fritz
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:53 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you 
this.

Not everything that we thought of as 'Notes' under AACR, is a 'Note' in RDA.

The example you show, comes under the category of 'Content'.

Content can either be at the Work level-applying to *every* expression of the 
work; or at the Expression level-applying to every manifestation of the 
expression.

Let's leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be 
including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references 
could be on different pages in different manifestations.

This particular type of content is covered under 
7.16<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html> as Supplementary Content

The instruction on recording supplementary content says "record the nature of 
that content"

In 
"Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12<http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc>'
 of the LC RDA Training documents, they say:
Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements
RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements.
* For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the 
resource.
* For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for 
example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted).

I can't find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it 
certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was added 
somewhere (perhaps in the glossary)

So, if an instruction says 'Transcribe' you will put down exactly what you find 
on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular instruction; 
this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4 for recording the 
attributes of manifestations and items.

But if an instruction says 'Record', you will put down what you find on the 
source, but not necessarily exactly as  you found it. This term is used in all 
(?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of works 
and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the attributes 
of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) .

So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply 'record' the supplementary 
content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the data that we include, 
which means we do not need to use square brackets for anything we enter for 
this element.

As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 
2.20<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

Thank you Deborah for the extended explanation, particularly regarding the 
distinction between "record" and "transcribe".  I'm still finding it a 
challenge to find what I'm looking for in the Toolkit.

Gene, I kind of agree with what you're saying, but I guess I'd just point out 
that library users aren't (I hope) expected to be looking at the RDA Toolkit, 
so the perhaps over-subtle distinction between "record" and "transcribe" is 
just another little bit of specialist vocabulary (jargon, even) that we 
catalogers will have to get used to, along with the FRBR entities and the rest.

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 4:00 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

The English language is really going down hill when record and transcribe can 
mean different things (to us as catalogers and code writers) and general 
populace whom we want to use our library do not go around making these very 
fine distinctions.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Deborah Fritz 
mailto:debo...@marcofquality.com>> wrote:
At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you 
this.

Not everything that we thought of as 'Notes' under AACR, is a 'Note' in RDA.

The example you show, comes under the category of 'Content'.

Content can either be at the Work level-applying to *every* expression of the 
work; or at the Expression level-applying to every manifestation of the 
expression.

Let's leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be 
including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references 
could be on different pages in different manifestations.

This particular type of content is covered under 
7.16<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html> as Supplementary Content

The instruction on recording supplementary content says "record the nature of 
that content"

In 
"Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12<http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc>'
 of the LC RDA Training documents, they say:
Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements
RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements.

  *   For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the 
resource.
  *   For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for 
example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted).

I can't find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it 
certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was added 
somewhere (perhaps in the glossary)

So, if an instruction says 'Transcribe' you will put down exactly what you find 
on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular instruction; 
this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4 for recording the 
attributes of manifestations and items.
But if an instruction says 'Record', you will put down what you find on the 
source, but not necessarily exactly as  you found it. This term is used in all 
(?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of works 
and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the attributes 
of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) .

So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply 'record' the supplementary 
content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the data that we include, 
which means we do not need to use square brackets for anything we enter for 
this element.

As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 
2.20<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.20.html>): 2.20.1.2 says we can take 
information for notes on manifestation or item from any source, and 2.20.1.3 
refers us to 1.10, which does not mention anything about needing square 
brackets for any data; so it is good thing that the LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 has the 
instruction quoted by Bob (although it would be easier to find if it was linked 
to 1.10)

Deborah

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -
Deborah Fritz
TMQ, Inc.
debo...@marcofquality.com<mailto:debo...@marcofquality.com>
www.marcofquality.com<http://www.marcofquality.com/>

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>] On 
Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM

To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary p

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Gene Fieg]

The English language is really going down hill when record and transcribe
can mean different things (to us as catalogers and code writers) and
general populace whom we want to use our library do not go around making
these *very fine *distinctions.

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Deborah Fritz
wrote:

>  At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer
> you this.
>
> ** **
>
> Not everything that we thought of as ‘Notes’ under AACR, is a ‘Note’ in
> RDA.
>
> ** **
>
> The example you show, comes under the category of ‘Content’.
>
> ** **
>
> Content can either be at the Work level—applying to **every** expression
> of the work; or at the Expression level—applying to every manifestation of
> the expression.
>
> ** **
>
> Let’s leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be
> including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those
> references could be on different pages in different manifestations.
>
> ** **
>
> This particular type of content is covered under 
> *7.16<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html>
> *as Supplementary Content
>
> ** **
>
> The instruction on recording supplementary content says “*record* the
> nature of that content”
>
> ** **
>
> In 
> “Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12<http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Training/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc>’
> of the LC RDA Training documents, they say:
> Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements
>
> RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements.
>
>- For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the
>resource.
>- For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for
>example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted).
>
> ** **
>
> I can’t find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it
> certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was
> added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary)
>
> ** **
>
> So, if an instruction says ‘Transcribe’ you will put down exactly what you
> find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular
> instruction; this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4
> for recording the attributes of manifestations and items.
>
> 
>
> But if an instruction says ‘Record’, you will put down what you find on
> the source, but not necessarily exactly as  you found it. This term is used
> in all (?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes
> of works and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the
> attributes of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) .
>
> ** **
>
> So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply ‘record’ the
> supplementary content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the
> data that we include, which means we do not need to use square brackets for
> anything we enter for this element.
>
> ** **
>
> As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 
> 2.20<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.20.html>):
> 2.20.1.2 says we can take information for notes on manifestation or item
> from any source, and 2.20.1.3 refers us to 1.10, which does not mention
> anything about needing square brackets for any data; so it is good thing
> that the LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 has the instruction quoted by Bob (although it
> would be easier to find if it was linked to 1.10)
>
> ** **
>
> Deborah
>
> ** **
>
> -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  
>
> Deborah Fritz
>
> TMQ, Inc.
>
> debo...@marcofquality.com
>
> www.marcofquality.com
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
> [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *Robert Maxwell
> *Sent:* Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM
>
> *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
> *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?
>
>  ** **
>
> Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase
> used in most U.S. cataloging is
>
> ** **
>
> Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69).
>
> not
>
> Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
>
> as I wrote.
>
> ** **
>
> Bob
>
> ** **
>
> Robert L. Maxwell
>
> Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
>
> Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
>
> 6728 Harold B. Lee Library
>
> Brigham Young University
>
> Provo, UT 84602****
>
> (801)422-5568 
>
> ** **

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Deborah Fritz]

At the risk of sounding even more obsessive-compulsive than Bob, I offer you
this.

 

Not everything that we thought of as 'Notes' under AACR, is a 'Note' in RDA.

 

The example you show, comes under the category of 'Content'.

 

Content can either be at the Work level-applying to *every* expression of
the work; or at the Expression level-applying to every manifestation of the
expression.

 

Let's leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether we should be
including page numbers for bibliographical references, when those references
could be on different pages in different manifestations.

 

This particular type of content is covered under 7.16
<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/7.16.html>  as Supplementary Content

 

The instruction on recording supplementary content says "record the nature
of that content"

 

In "Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12
<http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/LC%20RDA%20Traini
ng/Module1IntroManifestItemsSept12.doc> ' of the LC RDA Training documents,
they say:


Transcribed Elements vs. Recorded Elements


RDA distinguishes between transcribed elements and recorded elements.

*   For transcribed elements, generally accept the data as found on the
resource.
*   For recorded elements, the found information is often adjusted (for
example, the hyphens in an ISBN are omitted).

 

I can't find an explanation of this distinction anywhere in RDA, but it
certainly is a helpful distinction and it might be very useful if it was
added somewhere (perhaps in the glossary)

 

So, if an instruction says 'Transcribe' you will put down exactly what you
find on the source, except for the exceptions provided in a particular
instruction; this term is used in most of the instructions in chapters 2-4
for recording the attributes of manifestations and items.

But if an instruction says 'Record', you will put down what you find on the
source, but not necessarily exactly as  you found it. This term is used in
all (?) of the instructions in chapters 6-7 for recording the attributes of
works and expressions, and certain of the instructions for recording the
attributes of manifestations and items (most notably chapter 3) .

 

So, following the instruction at 7.16, we simply 'record' the supplementary
content, without the requirement to transcribe any of the data that we
include, which means we do not need to use square brackets for anything we
enter for this element.

 

As for the things that RDA still considers Notes (under 2.20
<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/2.20.html> ): 2.20.1.2 says we can take
information for notes on manifestation or item from any source, and 2.20.1.3
refers us to 1.10, which does not mention anything about needing square
brackets for any data; so it is good thing that the LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1 has
the instruction quoted by Bob (although it would be easier to find if it was
linked to 1.10)

 

Deborah

 

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  

Deborah Fritz

TMQ, Inc.

 <mailto:debo...@marcofquality.com> debo...@marcofquality.com

 <http://www.marcofquality.com> www.marcofquality.com

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

 

Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase
used in most U.S. cataloging is

 

Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69).

not

Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).

as I wrote.

 

Bob

 

Robert L. Maxwell

Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian

Genre/Form Authorities Librarian

6728 Harold B. Lee Library

Brigham Young University

Provo, UT 84602

(801)422-5568 

 

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves
to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

 

RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that
catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC
records:

 

LC-PCC PS for 1.7.1
<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1&target=rda1-787#rda1-7
87> http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png

GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION

.

Punctuation in Notes

LC practice/PCC practice: 

.

3.

Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are
used in quoted data.

 

EXAMPLE


500 <http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500>  ##

$a"Types of prayer wheels found in south c

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Gene Fieg]

Ugh!

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Benjamin A Abrahamse wrote:

>  RDA geniuses:
>
> ** **
>
> I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of
> unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description.  What about in
> notes? RDA 1.10.4 says, "Refer to passages in the resource, or in other
> sources, if these either support assertions made in the description" but
> nothing about what to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page.  Doing
> an "RDA quick search" for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions
> but none (that I saw) regarding notes.
>
> ** **
>
> E.g.: 
>
> ** **
>
> Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69).
>
> ** **
>
> or
>
> ** **
>
> Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69).
>
> ** **
>
> ???
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Ben
>
> ** **
>
> Benjamin Abrahamse
>
> Cataloging Coordinator
>
> Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
>
> MIT Libraries
>
> 617-253-7137
>
> ** **
>



-- 
Gene Fieg
Cataloger/Serials Librarian
Claremont School of Theology
gf...@cst.edu

Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information
or content contained in this forwarded email.  The forwarded email is that
of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School
of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University.  It has been forwarded as a
courtesy for information only.

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

You were following my mistake, which I don't (or at least I hope I don't) 
normally make in catalog records.

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:25 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase used 
in most U.S. cataloging is

Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69).
not
Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
as I wrote.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that 
catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records:

LC-PCC PS for 
1.7.1[http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png]<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1&target=rda1-787#rda1-787>
GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION
...
Punctuation in Notes
LC practice/PCC practice:
...
3.
Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used 
in quoted data.

EXAMPLE
500<http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500> ##

$a"Types of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin": pages 
310-375.

Not "... pages [310]-[375]."
500<http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500> ##

$a"2090245PMA"--Page 4 of cover.

Not "... -Page [4] of cover."

This seems fine to me and I've been following it in my RDA cataloging:

Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
not
Includes bibliographic references (pages [67]-69).

In my opinion it isn't crucial in this context that the reader of the record 
know that the number "67" doesn't appear on page 67. What is crucial is that 
the reader know that there's a bibliography and that it's three pages long.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:21 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA geniuses:

I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of 
unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description.  What about in notes? 
RDA 1.10.4 says, "Refer to passages in the resource, or in other sources, if 
these either support assertions made in the description" but nothing about what 
to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page.  Doing an "RDA quick search" 
for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions but none (that I saw) 
regarding notes.

E.g.:

Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69).

or

Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69).

???

Thanks,
--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

<>

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Robert Maxwell]

Sorry, at the risk of sounding obsessive-compulsive, the customary phrase used 
in most U.S. cataloging is

Includes bibliographical references (pages 67-69).
not
Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
as I wrote.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 1:05 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that 
catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records:

LC-PCC PS for 
1.7.1[http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png]<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1&target=rda1-787#rda1-787>
GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION
...
Punctuation in Notes
LC practice/PCC practice:
...
3.
Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used 
in quoted data.

EXAMPLE
500<http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500> ##

$a"Types of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin": pages 
310-375.

Not "... pages [310]-[375]."
500<http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500> ##

$a"2090245PMA"--Page 4 of cover.

Not "... -Page [4] of cover."

This seems fine to me and I've been following it in my RDA cataloging:

Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
not
Includes bibliographic references (pages [67]-69).

In my opinion it isn't crucial in this context that the reader of the record 
know that the number "67" doesn't appear on page 67. What is crucial is that 
the reader know that there's a bibliography and that it's three pages long.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:21 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA geniuses:

I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of 
unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description.  What about in notes? 
RDA 1.10.4 says, "Refer to passages in the resource, or in other sources, if 
these either support assertions made in the description" but nothing about what 
to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page.  Doing an "RDA quick search" 
for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions but none (that I saw) 
regarding notes.

E.g.:

Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69).

or

Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69).

???

Thanks,
--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

<>

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Benjamin A Abrahamse]

Thank you for the answer, Bob.

--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Robert Maxwell
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 3:05 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that 
catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records:

LC-PCC PS for 
1.7.1[http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png]<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdachp1&target=rda1-787#rda1-787>
GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION
...
Punctuation in Notes
LC practice/PCC practice:
...
3.
Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used 
in quoted data.

EXAMPLE
500<http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500> ##

$a"Types of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin": pages 
310-375.

Not "... pages [310]-[375]."
500<http://desktop.loc.gov/saved/Mabibl_500> ##

$a"2090245PMA"--Page 4 of cover.

Not "... -Page [4] of cover."

This seems fine to me and I've been following it in my RDA cataloging:

Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
not
Includes bibliographic references (pages [67]-69).

In my opinion it isn't crucial in this context that the reader of the record 
know that the number "67" doesn't appear on page 67. What is crucial is that 
the reader know that there's a bibliography and that it's three pages long.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:21 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA<mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA>
Subject: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA geniuses:

I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of 
unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description.  What about in notes? 
RDA 1.10.4 says, "Refer to passages in the resource, or in other sources, if 
these either support assertions made in the description" but nothing about what 
to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page.  Doing an "RDA quick search" 
for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions but none (that I saw) 
regarding notes.

E.g.:

Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69).

or

Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69).

???

Thanks,
--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

<>

Re: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

[Robert Maxwell]

RDA does not address this, but there is an LC-PCC Policy statement that 
catalogers may follow if they like and should if they're creating PCC records:

LC-PCC PS for 
1.7.1[http://access.rdatoolkit.org/images/rdalink.png]
GENERAL GUIDELINES ON TRANSCRIPTION
...
Punctuation in Notes
LC practice/PCC practice:
...
3.
Square brackets. Do not use square brackets in notes except when they are used 
in quoted data.

EXAMPLE
500 ##

$a"Types of prayer wheels found in south central Tibet, by Mei Lin": pages 
310-375.

Not "... pages [310]-[375]."
500 ##

$a"2090245PMA"--Page 4 of cover.

Not "... -Page [4] of cover."

This seems fine to me and I've been following it in my RDA cataloging:

Includes bibliographic references (pages 67-69).
not
Includes bibliographic references (pages [67]-69).

In my opinion it isn't crucial in this context that the reader of the record 
know that the number "67" doesn't appear on page 67. What is crucial is that 
the reader know that there's a bibliography and that it's three pages long.

Bob

Robert L. Maxwell
Special Collections and Ancient Languages Catalog Librarian
Genre/Form Authorities Librarian
6728 Harold B. Lee Library
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
(801)422-5568

"We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to 
the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 12:21 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Brackets for unnumbered pages in notes?

RDA geniuses:

I know that under RDA we no longer use brackets to indicate a range of 
unnumbered pages or leaves in the physical description.  What about in notes? 
RDA 1.10.4 says, "Refer to passages in the resource, or in other sources, if 
these either support assertions made in the description" but nothing about what 
to do if you're referring to an unnumbered page.  Doing an "RDA quick search" 
for unnumbered pages brings up plenty of instructions but none (that I saw) 
regarding notes.

E.g.:

Includes bibliographic resources (pages [67]-69).

or

Includes bibliographic resources (unnumbered page 67-page 69).

???

Thanks,
--Ben

Benjamin Abrahamse
Cataloging Coordinator
Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems
MIT Libraries
617-253-7137

<>