Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Jerry Shafer]

I spoke to midnite and they said they got a gfi 100 amp, l dont recall if
it was din tail or bolt on
Jerry

On Oct 12, 2016 12:53 PM, "Roy Butler" <r...@four-winds-energy.com> wrote:

> Drake,
>
> That's funny, William and I were having that discussion earlier today
> about those old DC enclosures.
> There was no need to sign your work because you left plenty of DNA behind
> for identification..
>
> Roy Butler
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
> NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com
>
> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
> On 10/12/2016 6:44 PM, Drake wrote:
>
> Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody knuckle boxes for sure.
> Things have come a long way since those days, and still have a ways to go.
>
>
> At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:
>
> Drake:
> Â
> Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
> Â
> 1.    In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all
> you got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load centers were
> the only choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new
> concept but it could be done.
> 2.    Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a
> brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of
> inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this
> design and it was genius.Â
> 3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been
> discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our
> discussion drives more of that.
> Â
> I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative.Â
> They are cheap and readily available.  Generally two load centers are
> required, one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  GTBB systems
> might call for a third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that
> calls for considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center
> installations.  Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock
> methods.  Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own
> slides.  Sure, they are not “listed†but they are a simple mechanical
> device and I am comfortable using them.
> Â
> There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized
> inverter equipment with standard electrical components.  For example,
> connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because
> the FX KOs are so far from the mounting surface.  This is the part of the
> work that I enjoy immensely.  We really want to make installations that
> are reliable, efficient to install and look good.  I have a friend in the
> entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing
> installation are more reliable…†  True words.
>
> Â
> Thanks for you input.
> Â
> William
> Â
> Â
> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
> 805-438-5600
> Â
> *From:* RE-wrenches [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Drake
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
> Â
> DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker
> systems that are used for many commercial and industrial applications.
>
> The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the
> cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason
> that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the
> shelf AC box.
>
> The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap
> on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reasonÂ
> to require anything other than standard code requirements.
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>
> At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:
>
> My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the
> panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
> definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter
> to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We
> have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is
> basically inaccessible.
>
> Jesse Dahl
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Roy Butler]

  
  
Drake,

That's funny, William and I were having that discussion earlier
today about those old DC enclosures.
There was no need to sign your work because you left plenty of DNA
behind for identification..
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.



On 10/12/2016 6:44 PM, Drake wrote:


  Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody knuckle boxes for
  sure.
  Things have come a long way since those days, and still have a
  ways to
  go. 
  
  
  At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:
  Drake:
 
Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
 
1.    In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet
was
all you got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load
centers were the only choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was
a
relatively new concept but it could be done.
2.    Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback
manufactured
a brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future
FX
series of inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is
responsible for this design and it was genius.  
3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we
have
been discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am
hoping our discussion drives more of that.
 
I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior
alternative.  They are cheap and readily available. 
Generally two load centers are required, one for generator fed
and one
for inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for a third panel:
utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that calls for
considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center
installations.  Most panel manufacturers provide limited
interlock
methods.  Where we need to interlock more than two breakers we
fab
our own slides.  Sure, they are not “listed� but they are a
simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using them.
 
There are some challenges to overcome when integrating
specialized
inverter equipment with standard electrical components.  For
example, connecting standard load centers to an FX inverter is
problematic because the FX KOs are so far from the mounting
surface.  This is the part of the work that I enjoy
immensely.  We really want to make installations that are
reliable,
efficient to install and look good.  I have a friend in the
entertainment industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing
installation are more reliable…â€�  True words.

 
Thanks for you input.
 
William
 
 


Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600
 
From: RE-wrenches
[
  mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
  Behalf Of
Drake
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
<
  re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
    Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
 
DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on
breaker
systems that are used for many commercial and industrial
applications.


The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do
with the
cost of designing and listing the equipment. There is no
technical reason
that a DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than
an off
the shelf AC box. 

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be
standard snap
on breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no
reason  to require anything other than standard code
requirements.


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
  OH License 44810
  CO License 3773
  NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
  740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/


At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:


  My students we just today complaining about the access to
wires on
the panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might
be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added
another
inver

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Drake]

Right, the old Trace DC cabinets were bloody
knuckle boxes for sure. Things have come a long
way since those days, and still have a ways to go.


At 02:36 PM 10/12/2016, you wrote:

Drake:
Â
Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
Â
1.    In the good old days of the SW
inverter, the DC cabinet was all you got, and it
was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load
centers were the only choice for the AC
side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it could be done.
2.    Prior to having an approved inverter,
Outback manufactured a brilliant system of BOS
that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series
of inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB
Gudgel is responsible for this design and it was genius.Â
3.    Even with improved BOS, there are the
shortcomings we have been discussing.  There is
always room for improvement and I am hoping our discussion drives more of that.
Â
I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the
superior alternative.  They are cheap and
readily available.  Generally two load centers
are required, one for generator fed and one for
inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for a
third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only
issue that calls for considerations out of the
ordinary for standard load center
installations.  Most panel manufacturers
provide limited interlock methods.  Where we
need to interlock more than two breakers we fab
our own slides.  Sure, they are not
“listed” but they are a simple mechanical
device and I am comfortable using them.
Â
There are some challenges to overcome when
integrating specialized inverter equipment with
standard electrical components.  For example,
connecting standard load centers to an FX
inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are
so far from the mounting surface.  This is the
part of the work that I enjoy immensely.  We
really want to make installations that are
reliable, efficient to install and look
good.  I have a friend in the entertainment
industry that once said, “aesthetically
pleasing installation are more reliable…”  True words.

Â
Thanks for you input.
Â
William
Â
Â
Gradient Cap_mini

Lic 773985
<http://www.millersolar.com/>millersolar.com
805-438-5600
Â
From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
To: RE-wrenches
<<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
Â
DC breaker systems should be designed similar to
AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for
many commercial and industrial applications.

The explanation for the fact that these don't
exist has to do with the cost of designing and
listing the equipment. There is no technical
reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more
difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box.

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should
certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the
power has been inverted to AC, there is no
reason  to require anything other than standard code requirements.

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
<http://athens-electric.com/>http://athens-electric.com/

At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:

My students we just today complaining about the
access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The
lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In
class We added another inverter to our package
and trying to install another 175A breaker was a
pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there
already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible.

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer
<<mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>jerrysgarag...@gmail.com > wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO
breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay"
<<mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
I†ll chime in here.<
Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.Â
However it is UL listed for the job. And while
you could put together something that would work
with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic
ultra flex.  This allows much better movement
of the wires with significantly less stress on
the terminals.   And if you want to not attach
wires to the back of the breakers then you can
and I’ve seen outback do it,it, install lay
in lugs facing outwards so you can use a
screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows for
installation and removal of wire without removal
of the breaker or the plate/breakers.  With
thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but
I know they make them, shielields that fit
between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insul

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[RE Ellison]

I think the designer was Robin Gudgel for the BOS gear
Bob Gudgel is the genius behind the MX and Classic and other electronics but my 
memory could be incorrect

From my point of view they both qualify as geniuses !

Bob Ellison

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 2:36 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:
> 
> Drake:
>  
> Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:
>  
> 1.In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you 
> got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load centers were the only 
> choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but it 
> could be done.
> 2.Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a brilliant 
> system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of inverters 
> (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this design and it 
> was genius. 
> 3.Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been 
> discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our 
> discussion drives more of that.
>  
> I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative.  They 
> are cheap and readily available.  Generally two load centers are required, 
> one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call for 
> a third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that calls for 
> considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations.  
> Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods.  Where we need to 
> interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides.  Sure, they are not 
> “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable using 
> them.
>  
> There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter 
> equipment with standard electrical components.  For example, connecting 
> standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs are 
> so far from the mounting surface.  This is the part of the work that I enjoy 
> immensely.  We really want to make installations that are reliable, efficient 
> to install and look good.  I have a friend in the entertainment industry that 
> once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more reliable…”  True 
> words.
>  
> Thanks for you input.
>  
> William
>  
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com
> 805-438-5600
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Drake
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>  
> DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems 
> that are used for many commercial and industrial applications. 
> 
> The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost 
> of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a 
> DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC 
> box. 
> 
> The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on 
> breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason  to 
> require anything other than standard code requirements. 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
> 740-448-7328
> http://athens-electric.com/ 
> 
> At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:
> 
> My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel 
> mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely 
> needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our 
> package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few 
> other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically 
> inaccessible. 
> 
> Jesse Dahl
> 
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
> Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com > wrote:
> 
> 
> You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and 
> voltage rated and are panel mounted.
> Jerry
> 
> On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I†ll chime in here.
> 
> Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk. 
> However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together 
> something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be 
> UL.
> 
> What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows 
> much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on th

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[William Miller]

Drake:



Your point brings to mind the evolution of the BOS cabinet:



1.In the good old days of the SW inverter, the DC cabinet was all you
got, and it was grossly inadequate.  Off-the-shelf load centers were the
only choice for the AC side.  AC bypassing was a relatively new concept but
it could be done.

2.Prior to having an approved inverter, Outback manufactured a
brilliant system of BOS that fit the SW, the DR and the future FX series of
inverters (the PS series).  I believe BoB Gudgel is responsible for this
design and it was genius.

3.Even with improved BOS, there are the shortcomings we have been
discussing.  There is always room for improvement and I am hoping our
discussion drives more of that.



I too believe that plug-on AC breakers are the superior alternative.  They
are cheap and readily available.  Generally two load centers are required,
one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  GTBB systems might call
for a third panel: utility fed.  Bypass is the only issue that calls for
considerations out of the ordinary for standard load center installations.
Most panel manufacturers provide limited interlock methods.  Where we need
to interlock more than two breakers we fab our own slides.  Sure, they are
not “listed” but they are a simple mechanical device and I am comfortable
using them.



There are some challenges to overcome when integrating specialized inverter
equipment with standard electrical components.  For example, connecting
standard load centers to an FX inverter is problematic because the FX KOs
are so far from the mounting surface.  This is the part of the work that I
enjoy immensely.  We really want to make installations that are reliable,
efficient to install and look good.  I have a friend in the entertainment
industry that once said, “aesthetically pleasing installation are more
reliable…”  True words.



Thanks for you input.



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:36 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner



DC breaker systems should be designed similar to AC bolt on breaker systems
that are used for many commercial and industrial applications.

The explanation for the fact that these don't exist has to do with the cost
of designing and listing the equipment. There is no technical reason that a
DC enclosure needs to be any more difficult to wire than an off the shelf
AC box.

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should certainly be standard snap on
breakers. Once the power has been inverted to AC, there is no reason  to
require anything other than standard code requirements.

Drake Chamberlin





*Athens Electric LLCOH License 44810CO License 3773NABCEP Certified Solar
PV 740-448-7328*http://athens-electric.com/

At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:

My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the
panel mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter
to our package and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We
have a few other DC breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is
basically inaccessible.

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com > wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated
and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I†ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.

However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together
something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t
be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows
much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the
terminals.   And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the
breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs
facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows
for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the
plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I
know they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in
lugs are insulated.

jay

peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com >
wrote:

Chris:



Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the
GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the
cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block
other compone

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Drake]

DC breaker systems should be designed similar to
AC bolt on breaker systems that are used for many
commercial and industrial applications.

The explanation for the fact that these don't
exist has to do with the cost of designing and
listing the equipment. There is no technical
reason that a DC enclosure needs to be any more
difficult to wire than an off the shelf AC box.

The AC breakers in any solar enclosure should
certainly be standard snap on breakers. Once the
power has been inverted to AC, there is no
reason  to require anything other than standard code requirements.

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
<http://athens-electric.com/>http://athens-electric.com/

At 11:31 PM 10/10/2016, you wrote:

My students we just today complaining about the
access to wires on the panel mount breakers. The
lug idea with separators might be a fix. It
definitely needs to be done differently. In
class We added another inverter to our package
and trying to install another 175A breaker was a
pain. We have a few other DC breakers in there
already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible.

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer
<<mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO
breaker line some are dc rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay"
<<mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
I”ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.
However it is UL listed for the job. And while
you could put together something that would
work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to
Arctic ultra flex.  This allows much better
movement of the wires with significantly less
stress on the terminals.   And if you want to
not attach wires to the back of the breakers
then you can and I’ve seen outback do it,
install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can
use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows
for installation and removal of wire without
removal of the breaker or the
plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I
can’t find them but I know they make them,
shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated.

jay
peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller
<<mailto:will...@millersolar.com>will...@millersolar.com> wrote:

Chris:


Thank you for the reply.  I think you
misunderstand me.  We always use the GSLC
cabinets.  I just don’t like the design
concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and
DC breakers that are difficult to access and
block other components.  See photo below of a
prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in.  Not a good scenario.


We have created an installation standard using
the GSLC that minimizes the problems inherent
with the design.  We run all AC leads to
adjacent load centers and we try to minimize
the DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our
goal to completely eliminate all breakers from
the removable dead-front.  I think it is
pretty self-explanatory why one would not
prefer to make connections in a hard to reach location.


Our goal is to constantly improve our
installation procedures to create better,
safer and more efficient installations.


Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on
how to make a “finished” looking install.
If you are familiar with my work you know it
is as clean as it gets.  Review my web
site.  Below is but one example of one of our installs.


And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very
complimentary phrase.  Please, let’s keep it professional.


Sincerely,


William Miller




Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC




Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..



Lic 773985
<http://www.millersolar.com/>millersolar.com
805-438-5600


From: RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches
<<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner


The GSLC gives the system a nice finished
appearance that the customer will understand.
Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in.


On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William
Miller <<mailto:will...@millersolar.com>will...@millersolar.com> wrote:

Friends:


I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to
accept the outputs from 3 remote PV
Combiners, send those outputs through GFP
circuit breakers, into charge controllers,
back thorough breaker, into a bus bar,
through a main breaker and onto a large battery bank.


I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I
refuse to install DC breakers on their
dead-front because wiring to studs facing
away from the front is a

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[William Miller]

Jay:



I wouldn’t go so far as to say the GSLC is a piece of junk.  It does have
some flaws, however, particularly the breaker wiring.  I informed Outback
of the shortcomings soon after it came out but no improvements have been
made.



We work around the breaker problem with a few procedures:



1.We remove all AC breakers.  We install off-the-shelf QO panels
immediately adjacent to the GSLC and install all AC breakers in two or
three panels:  Grid fed (if applicable), generator fed and inverter fed.
We handle bypass switching with a custom interlock in the inverter fed
panel.  I just this weekend finished a jig for a router that will make
precise slots in aluminum plate to make sliding interlocks. See photo below
(hope they come through).

2.The added benefit is if you want to add an AC breaker, you do not
have to provide a jumper for each pole.

3.We use the minimum quantity of DC Breakers in the GSLC.  If we can
move combiners indoors and near the charge controllers, and have 6 circuits
or less, we label the PV breakers as CC input disconnects.  If we have more
than 6 circuits, we add a 60 or 80 amp breaker to the comb and label it as
a disconnect.  We drill out the screw holes in the covers so they can be
removed without a tool to access the breakers.

4.We clamp the dead-front in a bench vise with the studs facing up and
prewire the breakers with extra wire.  We can then slip the dead-front in
place without having to work behind it.  See photo below:





And yes, neither QO nor QOU breakers are suitable for 48 volt
applications.  While they are factory rated for 125VDC, they are UL rated
to only 45 BDC, if my memory is correct.



I am starting to believe the MNDC15 might actually be a slick choice.  At
first I thought the form factor was awkward, but in CADing the design, I
see three FM charge controllers will fit right above it.  We always use 6
or 8 inch gutters in our equipment rooms.  We can come out of the gutter
with one or two 3” EMT nipples into the MNDC15, and then out of the top of
the MNDC15 with two 1” EMT nipples into each of three charge controllers.
We can run straight out of the MNDC15 into the battery bus bars.  The MNDC
will hold the PV shunt as well.  I can prewire the breakers with long
pigtails and land them in the CCs above or the busses within.



With external DC and AC panels, the only breakers in the GSLC are the
inverter breakers.  Makes for a much easier to wire installation.  And it
makes better sense to separate the AC and DC breakers.



If I give it a go, I will report back on my results.



Thanks to everyone for the input.



William



PS:  Our last two GSLCs came with some problems:  The shunt supports a
long, heavy bus bar.  One box had been dropped and the shock broke the
plastic base of the shunt.  Both units were missing the A and B bus bars
and one was missing the hardware package.  Outback totally dropped the ball
on replacements.  I did ferret out the manufacturer’s contact information
and they came through with flying colors, sending me replacement parts
immediately.  I was told this is not an uncommon problem of late.  Moral of
the story:  unbox your GSLCs and inventory the parts before you head to the
job.



Wm











[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *jay
*Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 5:21 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner



I”ll chime in here.



Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.

However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together
something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be
UL.



What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows
much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the
terminals.   And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the
breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs
facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows
for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the
plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know
they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs
are insulated.



jay

peltz power





On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:



Chris:



Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the
GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the
cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block
other components.  See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked
to work in.  Not a good scenario.



We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the
problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC leads to adjacent l

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[William Miller]

Jason:



I thought of this but I can find no DIN rail mounted breakers that perform
a GFDI function and are rated for 60 or 80 amps continuous.   Do you know
of any?  Midnite has a 63 amp unit, but this won’t work for FM80
controllers, and if it is not rated for continuous duty, it won’t work for
an FM60 either.



We have used an Outback Flexware 1000 DC Cabinets for recombiners.  They
have the same issue with back wiring but there is more room



William



PS:  I was on the island a couple of weeks ago.  Sorry I did not run into
you.



Wm







[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Lerner
*Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 8:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner



Hello William,



How about using an Outback Flexware 500/1000 AC circuit breaker box with DC
rated DIN rail mounted breakers?  The Main breaker might need to live in
the GSLC though…..



Best,



Jason Lerner



Waldron Power and Light Co.



On Oct 10, 2016, at 2:55 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:



Friends:



I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3
remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into
charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main
breaker and onto a large battery bank.



I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers
on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is
an inferior design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through
the GSLC cabinets.



I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers
with studs on the back.



Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?



Thanks in advance,



William Miller






Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Solar]

My students we just today complaining about the access to wires on the panel 
mount breakers. The lug idea with separators might be a fix. It definitely 
needs to be done differently. In class We added another inverter to our package 
and trying to install another 175A breaker was a pain. We have a few other DC 
breakers in there already. The whole cabinet is basically inaccessible. 

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 9:40 PM, Jerry Shafer <jerrysgarag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated and 
> voltage rated and are panel mounted.
> Jerry
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I”ll chime in here.
>> 
>> Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.  
>> However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together 
>> something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be 
>> UL.
>> 
>> What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows 
>> much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the 
>> terminals.   And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers 
>> then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing 
>> outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows for 
>> installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the 
>> plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know 
>> they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are 
>> insulated.
>> 
>> jay
>> peltz power
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Chris:
>>>  
>>> Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the 
>>> GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the 
>>> cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block 
>>> other components.  See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked 
>>> to work in.  Not a good scenario.
>>>  
>>> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the 
>>> problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC leads to adjacent load 
>>> centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our 
>>> goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front.  I 
>>> think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make 
>>> connections in a hard to reach location. 
>>>  
>>> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create 
>>> better, safer and more efficient installations.  
>>>  
>>> Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” 
>>> looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean 
>>> as it gets.  Review my web site.  Below is but one example of one of our 
>>> installs.
>>>  
>>> And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase.  Please, let’s 
>>> keep it professional.
>>>  
>>> Sincerely,
>>>  
>>> William Miller
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Lic 773985
>>> millersolar.com
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>  
>>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Chris Mason
>>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
>>> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>>>  
>>> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will 
>>> understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. 
>>>  
>>>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Friends:
>>>>  
>>>> I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3 
>>>> remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into 
>>>> charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main 
>>>> breaker and onto a large battery bank.
>>>>  
>>>> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Ray Walters]

This thread actually brings up issues I've struggled with for years too.
 QOs are really not good for over 50 v.  The panel mount QOUs are 
really expensive and special order.  I believe they're only good to 125 
vdc, so that not much help with higher voltage arrays.
There are much better breakers available for DC now.  The problem is 
mounting them.
 Panel mount DC breakers are a PITA to wire blind, but that's how most 
enclosures like Outback's work.  This isn't just an installers whining 
either,  I have a repair call right now from a loose rear breaker 
connection from another installer.  It charred the wire for 6" and 
melted the breaker.
Midnite usually saves the day on stuff like this, but their Mini and 
Quad boxes are too small for wire over #6, and I just can't recommend 
the MNDC 15, because again, its just to tight and hard to access the 
breaker rear connections. Their Mini DC box is decent, and mounts the 
post style breakers sideways for better access.  I use it for many more 
custom things.  I also use their MNPV 6 combiner as an indoor DC load 
center.  I don't like the plastic front,  but its the right size and can 
mount most DIN rail breakers.
I still dream of a DC box the size of the MNPV 6 or QO 6 circuit load 
center that mounted DIN rail on the front with a metal cover plate, and 
mounted the panel mount breakers on the sides.  Seems like a simple 
enough concept, but no one will build it.
I would use it for DC distribution, but primarily as WIlliam's need: a 
recombiner for in and out for several Charge controllers.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 10/10/2016 8:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc 
rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.

Jerry


On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I”ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.
However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put
together something that would work with Airpax breakers together,
but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This
allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less
stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to
the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it,
install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver
or allen key on them.  Allows for installation and removal of wire
without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers.  With
thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make
them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are
insulated.

jay
peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller
<will...@millersolar.com <mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Chris:

Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We
always use the GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design
concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that
are difficult to access and block other components.  See photo
below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in.  Not a
good scenario.

We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that
minimizes the problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC
leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC
breakers in the cabinet.  It is our goal to completely eliminate
all breakers from the removable dead-front.  I think it is pretty
self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in
a hard to reach location.

Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to
create better, safer and more efficient installations.

Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a
“finished” looking install. If you are familiar with my work you
know it is as clean as it gets.  Review my web site. Below is but
one example of one of our installs.

And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. 
Please, let’s keep it professional.


Sincerely,

William Miller



Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC



Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..


Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600 

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf
Of*Chris Mason
*Sent:*Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
*To:*RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the
customer will understand. Suck it up and liv

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Jason Lerner]

Hello William,

How about using an Outback Flexware 500/1000 AC circuit breaker box with DC 
rated DIN rail mounted breakers?  The Main breaker might need to live in the 
GSLC though…..

Best,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light Co.

> On Oct 10, 2016, at 2:55 PM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Friends:
>  
> I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3 remote 
> PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into charge 
> controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker 
> and onto a large battery bank.
>  
> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers on 
> their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an 
> inferior design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the 
> GSLC cabinets.
>  
> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers 
> with studs on the back.
>  
> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?
>  
> Thanks in advance,
>  
> William Miller
>  
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Allan Sindelar]

Jerry,
I don't think that QOs or QOUs would work. I believe that all are rated 
only to 50V DC, unless that longtime dual rating has recently changed. 
As the Radian is only available in 48V, any DC conductors would exceed 
this.

Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

On 10/10/2016 8:40 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:


You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc 
rated and voltage rated and are panel mounted.

Jerry


On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I”ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.
However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put
together something that would work with Airpax breakers together,
but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This
allows much better movement of the wires with significantly less
stress on the terminals. And if you want to not attach wires to
the back of the breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it,
install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver
or allen key on them.  Allows for installation and removal of wire
without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers.  With
thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know they make
them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs are
insulated.

jay
peltz power



On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller
<will...@millersolar.com <mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Chris:

Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We
always use the GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design
concept that clutters the cabinet with AC and DC breakers that
are difficult to access and block other components.  See photo
below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work in.  Not a
good scenario.

We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that
minimizes the problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC
leads to adjacent load centers and we try to minimize the DC
breakers in the cabinet.  It is our goal to completely eliminate
all breakers from the removable dead-front.  I think it is pretty
self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make connections in
a hard to reach location.

Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to
create better, safer and more efficient installations.

Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a
“finished” looking install. If you are familiar with my work you
know it is as clean as it gets.  Review my web site. Below is but
one example of one of our installs.

And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase. 
Please, let’s keep it professional.


Sincerely,

William Miller



Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC



Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..


Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600 

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>]*On Behalf
Of*Chris Mason
*Sent:*Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
*To:*RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the
customer will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect
world we function in.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller
<will...@millersolar.com <mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:

Friends:

I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs
from 3 remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP
circuit breakers, into charge controllers, back thorough
breaker, into a bus bar, through a main breaker and onto a large
battery bank.

I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install
DC breakers on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing
away from the front is an inferior design.  Furthermore, I see
no need to run PV circuits through the GSLC cabinets.

I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel
mounted breakers with studs on the back.

Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?

Thanks in advance,

William Miller


Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600 


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List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Jerry Shafer]

You might want to look at the square D QO breaker line some are dc rated
and voltage rated and are panel mounted.
Jerry

On Oct 10, 2016 3:00 PM, "jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I”ll chime in here.
>
> Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.
> However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together
> something that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be
> UL.
>
> What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows
> much better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the
> terminals.   And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the
> breakers then you can and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs
> facing outwards so you can use a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows
> for installation and removal of wire without removal of the breaker or the
> plate/breakers.  With thimbles of course. And I can’t find them but I know
> they make them, shields that fit between each breaker so the lay in lugs
> are insulated.
>
> jay
> peltz power
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com>
> wrote:
>
> Chris:
>
>
> Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the
> GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the
> cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block
> other components.  See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked
> to work in.  Not a good scenario.
>
>
> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the
> problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC leads to adjacent load
> centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our
> goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front.  I
> think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make
> connections in a hard to reach location.
>
>
> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create
> better, safer and more efficient installations.
>
>
> Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished”
> looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean
> as it gets.  Review my web site.  Below is but one example of one of our
> installs.
>
>
> And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase.  Please,
> let’s keep it professional.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
> 
>
> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC
>
>
> 
>
> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..
>
>
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
> 805-438-5600
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Chris Mason
> *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>
>
> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer
> will understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function
> in.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com>
> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
> I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3
> remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into
> charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main
> breaker and onto a large battery bank.
>
>
> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers
> on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is
> an inferior design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through
> the GSLC cabinets.
>
>
> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers
> with studs on the back.
>
>
> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
> 805-438-5600
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.
> re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[jay]

I”ll chime in here.

Yes the GSLC is a piece of junk.  
However it is UL listed for the job. And while you could put together something 
that would work with Airpax breakers together, but it wouldn’t be UL.

What I do is to swap out all the wires to Arctic ultra flex.  This allows much 
better movement of the wires with significantly less stress on the terminals.   
And if you want to not attach wires to the back of the breakers then you can 
and I’ve seen outback do it, install lay in lugs facing outwards so you can use 
a screwdriver or allen key on them.  Allows for installation and removal of 
wire without removal of the breaker or the plate/breakers.  With thimbles of 
course. And I can’t find them but I know they make them, shields that fit 
between each breaker so the lay in lugs are insulated.

jay
peltz power


> On Oct 10, 2016, at 4:40 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:
> 
> Chris:
>  
> Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the 
> GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the 
> cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block other 
> components.  See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked to work 
> in.  Not a good scenario.
>  
> We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the 
> problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC leads to adjacent load 
> centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our 
> goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front.  I 
> think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make 
> connections in a hard to reach location. 
>  
> Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create 
> better, safer and more efficient installations.  
>  
> Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished” looking 
> install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean as it gets. 
>  Review my web site.  Below is but one example of one of our installs.
>  
> And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase.  Please, let’s 
> keep it professional.
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> William Miller
>  
> 
> Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC
> 
>  
> 
> Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..
> 
>  
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
> 805-438-5600
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner
>  
> The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will 
> understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in. 
>  
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com 
> <mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:
>> Friends:
>>  
>> I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3 
>> remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into 
>> charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main 
>> breaker and onto a large battery bank.
>>  
>> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers 
>> on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is an 
>> inferior design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through the 
>> GSLC cabinets.
>>  
>> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers 
>> with studs on the back.
>>  
>> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?
>>  
>> Thanks in advance,
>>  
>> William Miller
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Lic 773985
>> millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>> 805-438-5600 
>>  
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org>
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[William Miller]

Chris:



Thank you for the reply.  I think you misunderstand me.  We always use the
GSLC cabinets.  I just don’t like the design concept that clutters the
cabinet with AC and DC breakers that are difficult to access and block
other components.  See photo below of a prewired GSLC Cabinet we were asked
to work in.  Not a good scenario.



We have created an installation standard using the GSLC that minimizes the
problems inherent with the design.  We run all AC leads to adjacent load
centers and we try to minimize the DC breakers in the cabinet.  It is our
goal to completely eliminate all breakers from the removable dead-front.  I
think it is pretty self-explanatory why one would not prefer to make
connections in a hard to reach location.



Our goal is to constantly improve our installation procedures to create
better, safer and more efficient installations.



Also, I don’t need someone to instruct me on how to make a “finished”
looking install. If you are familiar with my work you know it is as clean
as it gets.  Review my web site.  Below is but one example of one of our
installs.



And lastly, “suck it up” is not a very complimentary phrase.  Please, let’s
keep it professional.



Sincerely,



William Miller



Figure 1 Factory wired GSLC



Figure 2 Miller Solar installed GSLC..



[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Chris Mason
*Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2016 3:40 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner



The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will
understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in.



On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com>
wrote:

Friends:



I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3
remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into
charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main
breaker and onto a large battery bank.



I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers
on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is
an inferior design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through
the GSLC cabinets.



I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers
with studs on the back.



Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?



Thanks in advance,



William Miller





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600




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-- 

Chris Mason

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Solar Design Engineer

Generac Generators Industrial technician



www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com>

264.235.5670

869.662.5670

Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Recombiner

[Chris Mason]

The GSLC gives the system a nice finished appearance that the customer will
understand. Suck it up and live with the imperfect world we function in.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am looking for a PV recombiner.  I need to accept the outputs from 3
> remote PV Combiners, send those outputs through GFP circuit breakers, into
> charge controllers, back thorough breaker, into a bus bar, through a main
> breaker and onto a large battery bank.
>
>
>
> I am using 2 Outback Radian inverters, but I refuse to install DC breakers
> on their dead-front because wiring to studs facing away from the front is
> an inferior design.  Furthermore, I see no need to run PV circuits through
> the GSLC cabinets.
>
>
>
> I looked at the Midnite MNDC15 but again, these use panel mounted breakers
> with studs on the back.
>
>
>
> Anyone know of a more thoughtfully designed PV recombiner?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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