RE: Is there test information that shows whether or notobstructing lycra fabric ceiling elements are an issue?
Yes, sometimes boiling it down to one logical question is enough. Ok, u want to suspend flammable fabric that drips hot burning debris down atop kids in a daycare? What were u thinking? In this case, if no obvious, dependable method of protection is available, remark it's a nice idea but no, you can't have it. Maybe they can do it to provide shade outside over a play area instead? glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Is there test information that shows whether or notobstructing lycra fabric ceiling elements are an issue? As a wise forum member has reminded us more than once - just because it can be built doesn't mean it can be adequately protected by sprinklers. Ed Kramer Littleton, CO The last time I looked into fusible links for something like this I found they are typically not strong enough to carry much of a load and they are not created by top notch Italian industrial visual designers. In this case the interiors designer wants to support the fabric horizontally which means catenary style- flat. The flatter the catenary the larger the force. I have my doubts the designer understands the forces required. As for posing no threat, this is an early childcare center. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing lycrafabric ceiling elements are an issue?
Create your own test. Light a controlled fire like a pan of heptane or alcohol in the space with the lycra installed and see what happens with just overhead sprinklers. Find some local FPE's or arson investigators to help they'd love it. Could find a warehouse with an 18' ceiling if they don't want to use the new building. Scale is important so don't go with an 8' FD burn house. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:26 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing lycrafabric ceiling elements are an issue? The interiors architect plans to populate an open structure ceiling condition with many Lycra kites stretched horizontal at 11 foot in an 18 foot ceiling deck area above a light hazard space. The kite sizes are many times larger than 48 and there are so many of these in an overlapping pattern that one cannot even start to argue that these are not gross obstructions. Conditions are such that is not possible to install sprinklers underneath the fabric without penetrating vertically through the fabric. The architect wants to convince the AHJ that the Lycra will disappear in a fire condition, citing the fact that none of the product installation photos show sprinklers. Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing, horizontal Lycra fabric ceiling elements are or are not an issue for sprinklers. One would assume such tests would indicate fabric thickness, installed tension and other factors. This question will be posed to the manufacturer. If anyone would know something about it, it is probably someone on this forum. One can make up all sorts of plausible things the Lycra might do in fire condition but nothing would compare to some actual tests. Looking at this another way, is there merit in insisting the design area be large enough to include all the kites in a plausible event area, perhaps with a 30% penalty, and if so should the application rate be increased? Is there supporting information for that line of thinking? It would be nice to propose a defensible equivalency to the missing protection other than sales brochures where the sprinkler protection has been photoshopped out. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
rated wall opening
Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
Not sure, one of my PM's came to me with the question. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
We have the same thing in a 2 hr wall. However, this opening is for a conveyor to pass through. I don't think I can get a shutter there. Any ideas? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Not sure, one of my PM's came to me with the question. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ NOD32 4007 (20090414) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
And a water curtain allows radiant heat energy to pass but not convective. So fires could start on the other side theoretically. True it's really hard to start a fire at distance with radiant heat alone. It's especially hard with a sprinkler controlled fire. Local AHJ may be sympathetic especially if you have a good practical reason traditional protection won't work, like a paint line on a conveyor track. We've done it and I sleep well at night. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing lycrafabric ceiling elements are an issue?
What I have learned so far is that Lycra is strong polyurethane fiber segments joined with stretchy (soft) polyester or polyether fiber segments. The amounts of each varies with the blend. The polyurethane provides the mechanical body to the fiber while the other stuff provides the elasticity. The elasticity is constant in the range from 50F to 113F which is why it works well for clothing. Beyond 113F up to about 356F (depending on the blend) it contracts to 15% of what it was at 113F. Somewhere near 374F the polyester/polyether parts turns plastic and melt. The fiber breaks at that point. There is nothing to connect the polyurethane fibers to each other. Incidentally, the solvent dimethyl acetamide is used to make the stuff and some remains in the fiber after manufacture. It is the buyer's responsibility (the mill I guess) to keep the product ventilated enough while the residual solvent concentration is still at hazardous levels. One might say the kites would tighten up as they are in the shrinkage temperature range assuming that they are not being cooled by sprinkler spray faster than what is heating them up and they would rip apart at that 374F temperature range. Based on that assumption, would increasing the design area by 30%, as in delayed water-to-fire situations and also increasing the application rate to OH1 be a logical fire protection approach to this situation to bring to the Fire Marshall? Thanks again for your comments, Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
We had this condition about 10 years ago at the San Diego Airport, where the baggage conveyors pass though the separation between the exterior tug bays and the building interior. We positioned a QR sprinkler over the opening on both sides, and it was in accordance with an FM loss prevention bulletin. Can't remember which one, of course, but we provided this to the AHJ's (Federal and Local) and they all bought off on it. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We have the same thing in a 2 hr wall. However, this opening is for a conveyor to pass through. I don't think I can get a shutter there. Any ideas? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Not sure, one of my PM's came to me with the question. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ NOD32 4007 (20090414) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4013 (20090416) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4013 (20090416) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructinglycra fabric ceiling elements are an issue?
Our local school auditorium has 3x8 ft acoustic panels suspended above the stage with 135'F links and 200'F sprinklers. The panels release on one side to hang perpendicular between the overhead sprinklers. I believe the links used were the same ones used on automatic roof vents. Yes Lycra will burn, but at over 400'F so if the links drop it to the floor at 135'F it should be no bigger problem than carpet, except for the fact that it's possible to cause a tripping hazard. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Is there test information that shows whether or notobstructing lycra fabric ceiling elements are an issue?
Or just get a different material. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 2:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Is there test information that shows whether or notobstructing lycra fabric ceiling elements are an issue? Yes, sometimes boiling it down to one logical question is enough. Ok, u want to suspend flammable fabric that drips hot burning debris down atop kids in a daycare? What were u thinking? In this case, if no obvious, dependable method of protection is available, remark it's a nice idea but no, you can't have it. Maybe they can do it to provide shade outside over a play area instead? glc ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
Typically conveyors will have a break at a rated wall to allow for a shutter, often they will also have interlocks to stop the conveyor if a fire signal is sent from a sprinkler system or if a shutter closes (when the shutters have closure switches on them, not all do). I've seen some where there was no break in the conveyor and the opening was protected by someone putting a sprinkler head on both sides of the wall opening. Unfortunately there was never any documentation proving this had any equivalency to a 2 hour fire separation or if it would even work. But someone thunk up the idea and someone else signed off on it. Keep in mind that if you improvise a protection scheme, be sure you can prove it by some sort of recognized calculations or modeling. Can you defend it in court, is the mindset to have. Passive fire protection has it's place and purpose just as active systems such as sprinklers. They protect occupants and facilities in different ways but with the same end goals in mind. They are not in a contest of superiority as some would like to portray. If you read some of FMG's documentation they had given some verbiage about the purpose of MFL walls for instance being there to provide for delay in fire spread when active systems fail. We had a perfect example of this here locally several years ago with a tire warehouse. A severe thunderstorm damaged the building and took the fire main out of service, the lightning started a fire but since the sprinklers were now off-line, there was no protection. 3 hour fire walls separate parts of the warehouse and kept the fire from spreading. The fire dept. did finally extinguish the fire. Section 712 of the IBC deals with requirements of penetrations in rated walls and barriers. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We have the same thing in a 2 hr wall. However, this opening is for a conveyor to pass through. I don't think I can get a shutter there. Any ideas? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Not sure, one of my PM's came to me with the question. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word
Re: rated wall opening
It's done all the time in fire partitions but a 3 hr wall is starting to sound like a fire wall (which presents a much greater concern regarding integrity etc.). I'd proceed carefully. Roland On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing lycrafabric ceiling elements are an issue?
I can almost guarantee wet lycra will not go anywhere in the early stages of a fire. Ever put a paper cup or plastic bag full of water in a fire? Let's assume the first heads goes off without any delay. Let's even assume the lycra below the fire is gone. These are reasonable assumptions given the lightweight nature of lycra. Control mode sprinklers don't necessarily attack the fire direct. Much of the success is based on pre-wetting things that aren't burning yet. So as the fire spreads to areas under wet lycra the overhead system is not pre-wetting this stuff. The sprinklers are suddenly playing catch up and we know they don't do so good playing catch up. Also keep in mind the diameter of the hot gasses rising are only about 5.5' at the lycra level. Your area for water getting to the floor may only be 5.5' in diameter or less if the lycra just shrinks away from the heat like other plastics and doesn't release fully. This is another reason I don't think individual fusible links are the solution. The lycra 1' beyond this diameter will only be seeing ambient plus a little radiant, very little given the orientation. Here's a twist, this is also a good case where one should consider heads at more than one level operating. I have never had one of these so I speak theoretical. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:17 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing lycrafabric ceiling elements are an issue? What I have learned so far is that Lycra is strong polyurethane fiber segments joined with stretchy (soft) polyester or polyether fiber segments. The amounts of each varies with the blend. The polyurethane provides the mechanical body to the fiber while the other stuff provides the elasticity. The elasticity is constant in the range from 50F to 113F which is why it works well for clothing. Beyond 113F up to about 356F (depending on the blend) it contracts to 15% of what it was at 113F. Somewhere near 374F the polyester/polyether parts turns plastic and melt. The fiber breaks at that point. There is nothing to connect the polyurethane fibers to each other. Incidentally, the solvent dimethyl acetamide is used to make the stuff and some remains in the fiber after manufacture. It is the buyer's responsibility (the mill I guess) to keep the product ventilated enough while the residual solvent concentration is still at hazardous levels. One might say the kites would tighten up as they are in the shrinkage temperature range assuming that they are not being cooled by sprinkler spray faster than what is heating them up and they would rip apart at that 374F temperature range. Based on that assumption, would increasing the design area by 30%, as in delayed water-to-fire situations and also increasing the application rate to OH1 be a logical fire protection approach to this situation to bring to the Fire Marshall? Thanks again for your comments, Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
http://www.mmdoor.com.cn/e_index.htm Try these guys the make custom fire doors as well. Any door that reduces the opening, and then having sprinklers on both side may be the most effective. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Not sure, one of my PM's came to me with the question. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening We've discussed this before and the answer is no there is no published data of an equivalency. Fire shutter is your best bet. What is the opening for? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: rated wall opening Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructing lycrafabric ceiling elements are an issue?
Allan, There are way too many question on this stuff. What is really going to happen with that arrangement in a fire situation? Will the fabric more likely start to deteriorate directly above the fire or along the ceiling jet? If one area starts to go, how will the rest of the panel react? How it reacts could be dependent on how quickly the temperature goes from 113 to 374. Are the panels treated with a fire retardant? That could change the whole characteristic. How will he angle of the panels impact the panel under fire load? Will enough burn or melt away to eliminate the obstruction issue? How will sprinkler discharge impact the melting of the panels and thus the obstruction issue? Where will heat actually collect? I wouldn't put my stamp on anything having to do with this, unless some hard answers showed up on how this is going to react. This may be another situation that cannot be protected by sprinklers. There are a lot of similarities between this and the old ceiling cloud situation. I don't see anything you could bring to the Fire Marshal that wouldn't be a crap shoot. At 11:17 AM 4/16/2009, you wrote: What I have learned so far is that Lycra is strong polyurethane fiber segments joined with stretchy (soft) polyester or polyether fiber segments. The amounts of each varies with the blend. The polyurethane provides the mechanical body to the fiber while the other stuff provides the elasticity. The elasticity is constant in the range from 50F to 113F which is why it works well for clothing. Beyond 113F up to about 356F (depending on the blend) it contracts to 15% of what it was at 113F. Somewhere near 374F the polyester/polyether parts turns plastic and melt. The fiber breaks at that point. There is nothing to connect the polyurethane fibers to each other. Incidentally, the solvent dimethyl acetamide is used to make the stuff and some remains in the fiber after manufacture. It is the buyer's responsibility (the mill I guess) to keep the product ventilated enough while the residual solvent concentration is still at hazardous levels. One might say the kites would tighten up as they are in the shrinkage temperature range assuming that they are not being cooled by sprinkler spray faster than what is heating them up and they would rip apart at that 374F temperature range. Based on that assumption, would increasing the design area by 30%, as in delayed water-to-fire situations and also increasing the application rate to OH1 be a logical fire protection approach to this situation to bring to the Fire Marshall? Thanks again for your comments, Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
Rated partition and rated wall assemblies are different in construction, but in either case has anyone seen any calcs proving equivalency of a sprinkler or sprinklers to a UL listed rated assembly? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: rated wall opening It's done all the time in fire partitions but a 3 hr wall is starting to sound like a fire wall (which presents a much greater concern regarding integrity etc.). I'd proceed carefully. Roland On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
Only the window sprinklers. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Rated partition and rated wall assemblies are different in construction, but in either case has anyone seen any calcs proving equivalency of a sprinkler or sprinklers to a UL listed rated assembly? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: rated wall opening It's done all the time in fire partitions but a 3 hr wall is starting to sound like a fire wall (which presents a much greater concern regarding integrity etc.). I'd proceed carefully. Roland On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
CPVC in Ord Hazard
If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: rated wall opening
I've also seen the conveyor be enclosed for 10' +/- on either side with either QR heads or with something like a gem thermal control valve on each side, each TCV feeding spkrs on BOTH sides of the wall. Learn from history, if you have any aerosols present, Kmart (1981) Falls twp, PA; just over a mil SF of HPR whse burned to ground, water curtains at fire wall openings didn't slow down aerosol rockets that made fire in various quadrants of the building, joists came down 22 minutes after 1st waterflow alarm. Water curtains have a place, that wasn't it. As the old FM adage went: What has happened can happen. Great series of examples of what happened in some big losses. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Only the window sprinklers. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:40 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: rated wall opening Rated partition and rated wall assemblies are different in construction, but in either case has anyone seen any calcs proving equivalency of a sprinkler or sprinklers to a UL listed rated assembly? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: rated wall opening It's done all the time in fire partitions but a 3 hr wall is starting to sound like a fire wall (which presents a much greater concern regarding integrity etc.). I'd proceed carefully. Roland On Apr 16, 2009, at 7:50 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: Is there any testing or criteria in regards to equivalent rating for a water curtain or deluge curtain when protecting an opening in a rated wall? I have a 3' opening in a 3 hour wall and the architect is trying to see if this can be accomplished with a water or deluge curtain. Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
I personally wouldn't touch it, if something bad happens in any area of the system I'm sure the legal system would try to tie you to it since you were aware of the problems even though you didn't originally cause it. Jim Johnston, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Inland Fire Protection, Inc 1100 Ahtanum Road Yakima, WA 98903 Phone 509-248-4471 Fax 509-248-1180 j...@inlandfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: Thom McMahon [mailto:tmcma...@firetechinc.com] Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: CPVC in Ord Hazard If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
Noreen can omit almost anything in contract :) I assume its over 400 SF warehouse and not in a light hazard building? I'd scan the horizon for what could bite you later, tho- is return worth risk? glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: CPVC in Ord Hazard If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
The classic contractor's dilemma - Risk versus Reward. A few humble-opinion thoughts on each: From a Risk standpoint, if something (anything) goes wrong later down the road, what can you rely on that will prove you installed in accordance with applicable standards, manufacturers' instructions, laws regulating contractors, etc? Where will the AHJ who approved an otherwise unlisted application be? Can you estimate your total exposure, assuming some exists? From a Reward standpoint, what's in it for you? Is this for a favorite (or potentially new favorite) customer? If a customer wants it, maybe (operative word) you can get some contractual assistance in shouldering risk. If it's not a major customer, maybe the issue is operating cash flow. If that's the case, then ask yourself whether it's worth solving a short term issue now with a solution that could have long-term implications. Either way you go, best of luck! Paul Johnson Bardane, Inc. Visioning a competitive workforce (407) 401-7154 - Office (407) 399-5081 - Mobile pjohn...@bardane.net www.bardane.net -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: CPVC in Ord Hazard If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: CPVC in Ord Hazard
Sounds like a great project for your competition. Many moons ago (my previous employer), we did a partial system in a manufacturing area that was so caustic that galvanized pipe would rot in less than a year. We got permission to use CPVC and it held up fine. Other than that, stay away At 12:13 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
What did you hang the pipe with? Just because someone gave permission to install a product in a system outside of it's listing doesn't absolve a contractor of potential negligence if the system fails or does not perform as a listed component would. That could be kind of shaky ground. Was stainless not available? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: CPVC in Ord Hazard Sounds like a great project for your competition. Many moons ago (my previous employer), we did a partial system in a manufacturing area that was so caustic that galvanized pipe would rot in less than a year. We got permission to use CPVC and it held up fine. Other than that, stay away At 12:13 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
The way I see it, If you have a situation Outside of the scope of the code/standard like a corrosive environment, and the EOR says use this product in this manner. Both you and the owner are protected from liability to the best of your ability, by the EOR knowing the extent of his design responsibilities from the start. Our situation the EOR designed a code/standard compliant situation, outside of the code and standard and listing. Was this by intent? Or by error? Or a simple mistake? And by not knowing which do I assume some of that liability? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:34 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard What did you hang the pipe with? Just because someone gave permission to install a product in a system outside of it's listing doesn't absolve a contractor of potential negligence if the system fails or does not perform as a listed component would. That could be kind of shaky ground. Was stainless not available? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: CPVC in Ord Hazard Sounds like a great project for your competition. Many moons ago (my previous employer), we did a partial system in a manufacturing area that was so caustic that galvanized pipe would rot in less than a year. We got permission to use CPVC and it held up fine. Other than that, stay away At 12:13 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
I don't recall what they used for hangers. The job was done 22 years ago +/-, so I don't remember all the details. My boss at the time handled the negotiations and everybody signed off on it (Ins co, AHJ, etc.). As I recall there was an issue with stainless but I really don't remember what. It may have been cost plus other stainless components were deteriorating in there also. They used to make velvet in the mill and this was an area with an acid bath or something similar. The mill is near my house and has been closed as manufacturing for a while. It is now storage/workshop/offices and the CPVC pipe is still in there. At 01:34 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: What did you hang the pipe with? Just because someone gave permission to install a product in a system outside of it's listing doesn't absolve a contractor of potential negligence if the system fails or does not perform as a listed component would. That could be kind of shaky ground. Was stainless not available? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: CPVC in Ord Hazard Sounds like a great project for your competition. Many moons ago (my previous employer), we did a partial system in a manufacturing area that was so caustic that galvanized pipe would rot in less than a year. We got permission to use CPVC and it held up fine. Other than that, stay away At 12:13 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard
LOL- while that's a tribute to the longevity of CPVC in acid bath proximity, NOW we have a storage area protected by CPVC lines :) Give ya a similar recent experience: Those darn balcony heads in IBC- owner strictly enforces No BBQ in apts. We're doing Bldg 2, enforcement obvious in adjacent Bldg1, no BBq seen. He lives locally. So I ask if we can omit the balcony heads- PIA. And an AHJ I asked for guidance was wiser than I am- The owner NOW does this. The CO stays with the bldg when he sells it to some PE in ND that's a slumlord. BBQs abound, place burns down. That's why you need to take a long-term approach to projects when you stray from the straight and narrow. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:49 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC in Ord Hazard I don't recall what they used for hangers. The job was done 22 years ago +/-, so I don't remember all the details. My boss at the time handled the negotiations and everybody signed off on it (Ins co, AHJ, etc.). As I recall there was an issue with stainless but I really don't remember what. It may have been cost plus other stainless components were deteriorating in there also. They used to make velvet in the mill and this was an area with an acid bath or something similar. The mill is near my house and has been closed as manufacturing for a while. It is now storage/workshop/offices and the CPVC pipe is still in there. At 01:34 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: What did you hang the pipe with? Just because someone gave permission to install a product in a system outside of it's listing doesn't absolve a contractor of potential negligence if the system fails or does not perform as a listed component would. That could be kind of shaky ground. Was stainless not available? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 12:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: CPVC in Ord Hazard Sounds like a great project for your competition. Many moons ago (my previous employer), we did a partial system in a manufacturing area that was so caustic that galvanized pipe would rot in less than a year. We got permission to use CPVC and it held up fine. Other than that, stay away At 12:13 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: If an AHJ accepts CPVC pipe for an Ord. Group II warehouse installation, is it ok to do a LH alteration to that system for office space? Or is it better to just Run and make sure there is no connection to you for any part in this system? I'm thinking Don't Touch It! Any other thoughts? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to:
RE: Re: Is there test information that shows whether or not obstructinglycra fabric ceiling elements are an issue?
Fusible links have tension rating of 1# to #50# for metal links. I do not know the tension rating of the glass bulb links made by Job. Temperature ratings are from 135*F to 500*F Douglas Hicks General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc --- Original Message --- The last time I looked into fusible links for something like this I found they are typically not strong enough to carry much of a load and they are not created by top notch Italian industrial visual designers. In this case the interiors designer wants to support the fabric horizontally which means catenary style- flat. The flatter the catenary the larger the force. I have my doubts the designer understands the forces required. As for posing no threat, this is an early childcare center. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Cause Analysis of Accidental Discharge of Fire Sprinklers
We are reported an accidental discharge of ESFR in a roll paper warehouse. I have two questions: Q1 : Apart from the technical papers, does any one has a, - flow chart - check list for a systematic and analytical analysis of (root) cause(s)? Q2 : Is there a database where I can both report to and check whether there is a similar previous record or not? I'll appreciate any such experience... Rgds. Aydin OZKAYA ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
