Great discussion. I'm not going to make any friends on this forum with
my comments on this, but I do believe multi-purpose systems are the
future of 13D residential fire sprinkler systems. Code requirements
will be modified, new license categories created to facilitate this.
The cost savings
For the sprinkler contractors who don't hold a plumbing license: if there is
no BFP, then the entire sprinkler system is potable. That's work you no
longer have access to. Does that raise any eyebrows?
Ed Kramer
Littleton, CO
> "To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the
Also the PHCC promotes this.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: "Forest Wilson"
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 02:12:16
To:
Subject: Re: Residential systems in California
I can answer the license question. In oregon, where wirsbo systems are
installed, you m
I can answer the license question. In oregon, where wirsbo systems are
installed, you must be a licensed plumber.
The plumbers union promotes this.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: Jay Jay Blocker
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:52:54
To:
Subject: Re: R
Well its good to know that potter signal has information regarding how much
water a toilet uses. Especially when there are high flow toilets and low flow
toilets and even high volume. Its nice to know that they research life safety
and life relief. LOL I am just wandering how we could leave
As Ken pointed out, heres the IRC model code section;
R309.2 Separation required.
The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not
less than ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side. Garages
beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable ro
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There is a good possibility these types of systems will become common,
maybe not the most common but there will definitely be markets. These
are usually the PEX piping systems but not always. If they can eliminate
the BFP that can reduce the cost. They may still use 2 separate meters,
one for domes
Gee, a green idea.
I wonder if they could find a flush valve that could be set for 60 seconds,
or whatever..
almost Friday (and almost Baseball season).
FGOL
"To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the
committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the
hydraulic
"To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the
committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the
hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ..."
Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the
inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever
"It's called risk assessment, or risk/benefit analysis and tactical decision
making by the commanding officer."
You got that right Chris. Sprinklers or No sprinklers, Dimensional
Construction or Engineered Lightweight every IC (Incident Commander) must be
able to assess, decide and commit resourc
Don't get to quick to jump on the "not area density" bandwagon when
protecting dwelling units under the guidance of NFPA-13.
If the water required by the manufacturer's listing isn't more demanding
than 0.10 gpm/sqft over the coverage area of the sprinkler, then that
density applies over the c
Ryan,
Despite the plan figure that the Building Inspector will require the
contractor to provide a one hour rated wall between the garage and the
dwelling unit including all the bells and whistles like sefl-closures
and metal pipe and electrical penetrations.
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Rya
Matt,
Thanks for the input. I thought that I had read somewhere in 13 that this
was the case, but I couldn't find it.
BK
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J.
Willis
Sent: Thursday, Febr
Generally speaking appeals boards aren't permitted to modify code and or
reduce a level of protection below that prescribed by the adopting agency,
in other words they render a decision based on the code not by rewriting it.
For example if the Chief had required something not required in NFPA-13 th
Looks that way. The commentary for the definition of anti-freeze states that
the area for the antifreeze system shall be added to the total floor area,
since it is an auxiliary system. The definition for System Riser states
between the water supply and the mains (cross or feed). As your dry system
Glad to see this is on the up and up WRT to the law even if I wouldn't
concur on the merits of the issue.
What concerns me is the Chief's attitude. Which I understand is beyond your
control. A Chief should be able to keep his men safe whether the building
is sprinklered or not. It's called risk
Section 8.2.1 (2007) states, "The maximum floor area on any one floor
supplied by one sprinkler system riser or combined system riser shall be as
follows". I read this to mean that if I have a wet system with an auxiliary
dry system piped off of it in a remote location, that I am to include th
For those of you who install residential systems in California, there is
short thread on the ICC bulletin board that you should be aware of (if you
aren't already).
The link:
http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001809
Ed Kramer
Littleton, CO
_
Thanks for the input. Since it does not qualify for the RD method, I
think I will pick up 2 garage units for 900 SF.
As for the AHJ not recognizing 13R, they have it written in their
adopted code as
"An approved automatic fire sprinkler system shall be installed in
accordance with the
current edit
You are correct since it is ordinary hazard you need a one hour rated wall and
an automatic or self closing door of equal rating. Since it was the AHJ's
decision to not recognize 13R I would ask them for guidance or engineer a
solution and submit it to them for approval.
Ryan Peterson, Design M
Usually the wall between the unit and the garage is required to have
some type of rating.
Richard Carr, SET
Design Manager
Associated Sprinkler Co., LLC
336.373.3901 ext 217
richa...@associatedsprinkler.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprin
900 sq.ft. or room design method if the separations are per 13 including the
doors from OH. Good thought on not extending into the dwelling unit point.
Never thought about it as it isn't area/density. First thought is if the
room design can't be used for the garage you have to go to 900 sq.ft. wit
Dewayne, it sounds like you can use Room Design Method and just calc one
garage.
Richard Carr, SET
Design Manager
Associated Sprinkler Co., LLC
336.373.3901 ext 217
richa...@associatedsprinkler.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-
Besides the obvious arguement of why 13R isn't being recognized...
Use the room design method. Don't forget the head under the garage door.
Ryan Peterson, Design Manager
Wayne Automatic Fire Spinklers
Sent from my BlackBerry.
- Original Message -
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesp
I thought of that but the wall separating the garage from the unit it is
servicing is not shown as fire rated nor is the door from the garage to
the unit self closing.
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Be
So if we install a pump in a separate pump house, we don't have to
satisfy NFPA 20? Call you competition and tell them you have a job
they might be interested in.
At 11:19 AM 2/19/2009, you wrote:
The owner has two tanks outside the NFPA 13 building, buried in the ground.
He wants to install
That's an issue here also. One jurisdiction wants dry uprights in the
attic, sprinklered detached garages, FDCs, flow switches operating all
smoke alarms, etc. Of course the detached garage can be designed to
13D presumably so that if you're in the garage when the fire starts
you get an extra ten m
Simple solution! Tell him if he forms a water district, and becomes a
purveyor, and meets all the AWWA and EPA and State codes and standards, oh
yes and then meets 24, and IFC for fire hydrant flow. (Bigger tanks and
pumps) And when he completes the 5 year process, then yes he can use
unlisted for
I have a 4 unit apartment building that the AHJ wants sprinklered per
NFPA 13 since they do not recognize 13R. Each unit is separated from
the other by a full height 2hr fire wall. I am using residential
sprinklers in the dwelling units and QR sprinklers in the garages. The
garage is only 450 SF
Another cost "Increaser" is backflow protection. Many times the flow
restriction of the backflow prevention device will force an increase in size to
1-1/4" from 1" That can be an extra $120.00 with air gap for antifreeze
systems. And yes there are anti-freeze 13D systems that are more than 1.10/
During that time frame were regular inspections performed? Yes, inhouse
inspections done annually.
Where any of the heads Near a "Other" type incident? NO, the two heads
were not near any other type of incident.
When "Creep" was found did you institute a testing and sampling program?
No, they wer
In playing the why do we need it since the municipal system does not
use listed pumps, such comparisons also need to consider monitoring of
service and response to loss of service before claiming to be similar.
Roland
On Feb 19, 2009, at 8:19 AM, A.P.Silva wrote:
The owner has two tanks o
I agree with you for the most part. Although it ain't sunny and warm San
Diego everywhere. There are higher costs to living in the north.
Tell you what the first time I hear the NAHB be reasonable and accept any of
our arguments as we accept some of theirs I'll help with the issues they
compla
Concur, but it will not be easy nor as fast as we would like, which is why we
need to start NOW in anticipation of 2011. Nothing will make states more shy
about adoption of the new code than the prospect of $10 per SF residential
sprinkler systems. In many states, like here in California, th
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You mean when jurisdictions adopt the IRC with SFD AS, and they take their
political lobby and take aim on water purveyors?
I'd agree.
We have to wait for a sofa fire to bring attention to the problem, they can
lobby locally on homeowner's (constituent's) wallets.
Of course, Bill, I ask you q
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Prediction - When NAHB becomes involved in the sprinkler business these
fees will come down dramatically or to nearly nothing. What is your
prediction?
Bill Brooks
William N. Brooks, P.E.
Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc.
372 Wilett Drive
Severna Park, MD 21146
410-544-3620 Phone
410-544-3
Tony,
Just went through this. If the pumps are not exclusively for fire then
they are just like municipal pumps (think of it as a "one horse
town"). If they are for fire only then they need to be listed fire
pumps. Of course this is a negotiation between the owner and the
AHJ(s), with you, apparen
I think it's time that all of us in the sprinkler community shoulder more
responsibility for the conflict as it has transpired over the past 15 years,
and let's try to focus on solutions instead of who's at fault for the problem.
For YEARS we've been telling anyone who will listen that reside
During that time frame were regular inspections performed?
Where any of the heads Near a "Other" type incident?
When "Creep" was found did you institute a testing and sampling program?
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7
The owner has two tanks outside the NFPA 13 building, buried in the ground.
He wants to install two submersible electric pumps, one inside each tank
(with a diesel generator and transfer switch) and connected in parallel to
supply the building. The problem is the pumps are not listed fire pumps.
I won't agree or disagree with your first paragraph because I don't know.
But what I do know is in a non-scientific study I did in St. Paul in '02-'04
where sprinkler systems released water it was from fire in the high teens
for a percent. So basically ~83% of the time it was something else. Th
Here's a statistic.
We are an industrial complex with 3.2M square feet. I have not gone around
and counted the number of sprinklers but assuming 1 for every 100 square
feet that is 32,000 sprinklers. Actually it is more because we have a lot
of suspended ceilings that have sprinklers above and
May I make a suggestion?
What if we had an informal network of responders who actually followed
up on these newspaper reports of sprinkler leakage events or sprinkler
failure events? Figure out where the event occurred and go see someone
who saw it. Not immediately but next time you're in that l
"in what has become a deeply distressed market" yeah but their arguments
haven't changed from when times were booming. If they changed the position
because the market failed I'd be more sympathetic and agree to hold off to
when times are better. Had a similar discussion with a peer about training
Thank you, John Hoffman.
even if i can't quote it,
it is good to know it.
statisticians and oncologists say, we should not make relative
comparisons between different risks in (most) any way,
but the truth is, patients, and I, and most of us,
do just this
every day
(wrong though it may be).
rela
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