Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Steve Leyton 
You know, at some point we have to stop being sheep and take the initiative. I 
understand that the designer is subordinate to the directive of the engineer of 
record.  But in this case the EOR is recommending something that I passionately 
and organically believe to be a bad practice. Installing unnecessary control 
valves adds potential failure links to the chain of events. Plus unnecessary 
first cost and unnecessary ongoing cost for maintenance of these redundant 
valves and supervisory devices.

Someday, if one of those valves gets left shut and the system fails to control 
or suppress a fire, and heaven forbid somebody should be injured or killed, the 
designer and everyone else associated with the project will get sued. There is 
no good reason to add those valves to system configured as described. Talking 
about whether check valves or flow switches are required just adds to the level 
of obscuration. To me the issue should be how best to stand up to the idiot who 
is specifying this arrangement.


Steve Leyton

(Sent from my phone; please excuse typos and voice text corruptions.)



 Original message 
From: John Denhardt 
Date: 11/6/18 11:49 PM (GMT+03:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel 
mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.

Mike Stossel SET

36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread AKS-Gmail-IMAP 
Think about why you think close proximity comes into play. Compare the 
condition to one where the second system is one floor up on the common supply 
riser. What is the difference between a few inches of incompressible fluid and 
a story of incompressible fluid? How is the bull head systems arrangement any 
different from a bank of systems connected at a manifold down in the ground 
floor service entrance room? Trapped air might aggravate what you are worried 
about. Focus on mitigating that.

But if you were to install a check valve, it would be after the system valve, 
not before the system valve. That way only the one system is down when 
servicing the check valve.

Allan Seidel

> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:08 PM, Fpdcdesign  wrote:
> 
> This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only 
> requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting 
> to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are 
> interconnected). 
> 
> My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two 
> flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to 
> simultaneous operation? 
> 
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080  (ofc)
> 860-553-3553  (fax)
> 860-608-4559  (cell)
> 
> 
>> On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, > > wrote:
>> 
>> I agree. Check valves are required. 
>> 
>> John 
>> 
>> John August Denhardt, P.E.
>> Strickland Fire Protection 
>> 
>> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel > > wrote:
>> 
>>> If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
>>>  
>>> 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
>>> 8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
>>> provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and 
>>> flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each 
>>> floor level.
>>>  
>>> Mike Stossel SET
>>> 
>>> 36 Barren Road
>>> East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
>>> Office: 973-670-2627 
>>> m...@knssprinkler.com 
>>>  
>>> From: Sprinklerforum >> > On Behalf Of 
>>> Fpdcdesign
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
>>> To: Sprinklerforum >> >
>>> Subject: Back to back floor controls.
>>>  
>>> I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
>>> engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
>>> manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there 
>>> is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either 
>>> side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close 
>>> proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and 
>>> the manifold?
>>> 
>>> Todd G Williams, PE
>>> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>>> Stonington, CT
>>> 860-535-2080  (ofc)
>>> 860-553-3553  (fax)
>>> 860-608-4559  (cell)
>>> ___
>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list
>>> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
>>> 
>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>>>  
>>> 
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Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Norman Riffner 
Gents, I am bidding out a design for an NFPA 13 R system and could use some 
technical advise. Any idea as to who may be able to assist?

From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Ron Greenman 
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 4:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

Just a guess (perhaps educated but a guess nonetheless) but I'd think any flow 
whatsoever from the non-flowing line would be back towards the flowing line and 
only momentarily until everything equalized. If the paddle moves at all it 
would be the wrong direction and the flow switch mechanism would remain in its 
resting position.


Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner Herzog, 
screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera director (1942-)


On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 1:09 PM Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only 
requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting 
to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are 
interconnected).

My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two 
flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous 
operation?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, mailto:jdenha...@stricklandfire.com>> 
wrote:

I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel 
mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:


If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.



8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.

8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.



Mike Stossel SET



36 Barren Road

East Stroudsburg, PA 18302

Office: 973-670-2627

m...@knssprinkler.com



From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.



I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

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Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Ron Greenman 
Just a guess (perhaps educated but a guess nonetheless) but I'd think any
flow whatsoever from the non-flowing line would be back towards the flowing
line and only momentarily until everything equalized. If the paddle moves
at all it would be the wrong direction and the flow switch mechanism would
remain in its resting position.


Ron Greenman

rongreen...@gmail.com

253.576.9700

The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. -Werner
Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera
director (1942-)


On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 1:09 PM Fpdcdesign  wrote:

> This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The
> only requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are
> connecting to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone
> valves are interconnected).
>
> My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are
> two flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to
> simultaneous operation?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-553-3553 (fax)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, >
> wrote:
>
> I agree. Check valves are required.
>
> John
>
> John August Denhardt, P.E.
> Strickland Fire Protection
>
> On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel  wrote:
>
> If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
>
>
>
> *8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.*
>
> *8.16.1.5.1* *Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall
> be provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and
> flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each
> floor level.
>
>
>
> Mike Stossel *SET*
>
> 
>
> 36 Barren Road
>
> East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
>
> Office: 973-670-2627
>
> m...@knssprinkler.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum  *On
> Behalf Of *Fpdcdesign
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
> *To:* Sprinklerforum 
> *Subject:* Back to back floor controls.
>
>
>
> I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The
> engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser
> manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there
> is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either
> side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close
> proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and
> the manifold?
>
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>
> 860-553-3553 (fax)
>
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> ___
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>
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Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread John Denhardt 
I would not think so as long as the delays are adjusted correctly.

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 4:09 PM, Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:

This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only 
requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting 
to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are 
interconnected).

My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two 
flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous 
operation?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM, mailto:jdenha...@stricklandfire.com>> 
wrote:

I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel 
mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.

Mike Stossel SET

36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Fpdcdesign 
  
  

 This is being done per the 2010 edition before that text was added. The only 
requirements I see in that version for a check valve is if you are connecting 
to a combination sprinkler standpipe riser (and if the zone valves are 
interconnected).   
  

  
My question was more of an operational one as opposed to a Code one. Are two 
flow switches on different branches in close proximity subject to simultaneous 
operation?   
  
  
  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (ofc)
  
860-553-3553 (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Nov 6, 2018 at 3:48 PM,   (mailto:jdenha...@stricklandfire.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   I agree. Check valves are required. 
>
>   
> John   
>   
>   
> John August Denhardt, P.E.  
> Strickland Fire Protection   
>   
>   
>
>  On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel   (mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >
> > If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > 8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
> >
> >   
> >
> > 8.16.1.5.1*  Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
> > provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and 
> > flow switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each 
> > floor level.
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >  Mike Stossel   SET
> >
> >   
> >
> > 
> >
> >   
> >
> > 36 Barren Road
> >
> >   
> >
> > East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
> >
> >   
> >
> > Office: 973-670-2627
> >
> >   
> >
> > m...@knssprinkler.com (mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > From:  Sprinklerforum   > (mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org)>   On Behalf Of  
> > Fpdcdesign
> >   Sent:  Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
> >   To:  Sprinklerforum   > (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>
> >   Subject:  Back to back floor controls.
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
> > engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
> > manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there 
> > is a bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either 
> > side of the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close 
> > proximity, should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and 
> > the manifold?
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> >
> >  Todd G Williams, PE
> >
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > Stonington, CT
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-553-3553 (fax)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > 860-608-4559 (cell)
> >
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   
>   
> >   
> >   ___
> >   Sprinklerforum mailing list
> >   Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> > (mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)
> >
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RE: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Mike Stossel 
You are absolutely right, it always helps when you read the entire question and 
don’t jump to a conclusion.  My apologizes for the incorrect information.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of cl...@fire-design.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:53 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Back to back floor controls.

I thought Todd said this was a 2-story building?

I’d use the check valves but more for good ‘engineering practice’.  I’m not 
certain that they are ‘required’, based on the info Todd provided.

Just my opinion.

Cliff Whitfield, SET
President

Fire Design, Inc.
184 Comfort Place
Burnsville, NC 28714
Ph: 828-284-4772

[Description: New FDI Logo-4.jpg]

cl...@fire-design.com
www.fire-design.com

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of John Denhardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:49 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.

I agree. Check valves are required.

John
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel 
mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:
If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.

Mike Stossel SET

36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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RE: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread cliff 
I thought Todd said this was a 2-story building?



I’d use the check valves but more for good ‘engineering practice’.  I’m not 
certain that they are ‘required’, based on the info Todd provided.



Just my opinion.



Cliff Whitfield, SET

President



Fire Design, Inc.

184 Comfort Place

Burnsville, NC 28714

Ph: 828-284-4772







  cl...@fire-design.com

  www.fire-design.com



From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Denhardt
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Back to back floor controls.



I agree. Check valves are required.



John

John August Denhardt, P.E.

Strickland Fire Protection


On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> > wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.



8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.

8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.



Mike Stossel SET



36 Barren Road

East Stroudsburg, PA 18302

Office: 973-670-2627

m...@knssprinkler.com 



From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of 
Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> >
Subject: Back to back floor controls.



I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?


Todd G Williams, PE

Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (ofc)

860-553-3553 (fax)

860-608-4559 (cell)

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Re: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread John Denhardt 
I agree. Check valves are required.

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection

On Nov 6, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Mike Stossel 
mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com>> wrote:

If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.

Mike Stossel SET

36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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RE: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Mike Stossel 
Sorry, I also made the assumption that your total floor area exceeded the 
square footage.

8.16.1.5.3 The floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch required by 8.16.1.6.3 shall not be required where the total area of all 
floors combined does not exceed the system protection area limitations of 8.2.1.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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RE: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Reed A. Roisum, SET 
If you are in NFPA 13, 2013 edition or newer I believe the check valve is 
required.


Reed A. Roisum, SET | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Senior Fire Protection 
Designer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9903 | mobile: 701.388.1352 | 
KFIengineers.com
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 2:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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RE: Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Mike Stossel 
If I am understanding you question correctly, check valves are required.

8.16.1.5 Floor Control Valve Assemblies.
8.16.1.5.1* Multistory buildings exceeding two stories in height shall be 
provided with a floor control valve, check valve, main drain valve, and flow 
switch for isolation, control, and annunciation of water flow on each floor 
level.

Mike Stossel SET
[400dpiLogoCropped]
36 Barren Road
East Stroudsburg, PA 18302
Office: 973-670-2627
m...@knssprinkler.com

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2018 3:38 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: Back to back floor controls.

I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)
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Back to back floor controls.

2018-11-06 Thread Fpdcdesign 
  
  

 I am working on an existing two story plus attic wood frame building. The 
engineer is requiring zone control assemblies (butterfly valve plus riser 
manifold) for every level including the attic. I have designed it so there is a 
bull head tee at the top of a 4” riser with the assemblies on either side of 
the tee. Given that the flow switches are going to be in close proximity, 
should I install a check valve between the butterfly valve and the manifold?
  
  
  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (ofc)
  
860-553-3553 (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
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RE: High School Weight Room - epistemology of fire hazard classification

2018-11-06 Thread David Blackwell 
The likelihood and cost/benefit analysis is a debate that should be happening 
at the building code development and adoption phases when determining what the 
minimum code requirements should be in the building codes and standards.

You may want to consider that public buildings that are funded by taxpayers are 
a community investment of resources which should be protected against fire and 
other hazards to be more resilient and durable to make the most of the 
investment of community resources, especially since reconstructing a new public 
building in future dollars is generally more expensive.  Fire and other natural 
disasters like earthquakes can be a low likelihood event when considering 
building code requirements, but when it happens, we don't want to rebuild from 
scratch, especially when it comes to big buildings and important buildings.  
Fires can also be an immediate secondary event after an earthquake where 
multiple simultaneous fires occur to add to the chaos and destruction with 
emergency services stretched thin... and other things like this happen as 
reported at 
http://www.historynet.com/the-great-1906-san-francisco-earthquake-and-fire.htm: 
 "One of the first casualties was Fire Chief Engineer Dennis T. Sullivan, who 
was mortally wounded when a chimney from the California Theater smashed without 
warning into the fire station where he was living. The fire department, faced 
with the greatest crisis in its history, was effectively decapitated."

Predicting how owners will actually use the building and what future contents 
will be in the building is hard.  I would point out that in many cases, public 
school buildings that were not designed as emergency shelters are often used as 
emergency shelters and can be found with various other potentially 
unanticipated uses ranging from voting stations to weekend religious services 
to student sleep-ins.  I would also highlight that NFPA 13 annex guidance on 
storage commodity classifications finally/recently changed to catch up with the 
reality of modern storage and packaging due to the uses of higher BTU plastics 
replacing the traditional materials prevalent when the previous annex guidance 
was first put in the standard.

On a relate note, we have even had difficulties in the past convincing some 
local jurisdictions that resisted protecting fire stations with fire sprinklers 
when the building codes clearly require them to be sprinklered [when budget 
concerns and possibly some fire service hubris combined].  We had to educate 
them on both the legal requirements and the reasoning behind the code 
requirements and the political reality of trying to get it rebuilt if it did 
burn down after we had told them it was required to be protected by 
sprinklers...  PS:  Google fires in fire stations to get link to articles like 
this:  http://mentalfloss.com/article/22704/do-fire-stations-ever-catch-fire

Respectfully,

David Blackwell

David Blackwell, P.E.
Chief Engineer
(803)896-9833

Office of State Fire Marshal
141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203
http://statefire.llr.sc.gov/
(803)896-9800

"Our firefighting starts with plan review..."

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Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2018 1:18 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: High School Weight Room - epistemology of fire hazard classification

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I doubt LH at top of gym ceiling will control rolled up mats of PU/expanded 
foam.. Even with over pressure.

Now, if we want to design MORE EXPLICITLY by risk analyses
 (and consider  ignition likelihood... [or just use the words "cauase and 
origin" to get hits when lawyers conduct expert witness searches" ])
let us go there.

Consider:  how many of our Electronic Equipment or Information Technology rooms 
with pre-action systems are in
such a state of readiness that they will control their design fire? Design 
being:  density over area

 Answer:  maybe, maybe...  3/4 of SIPA systems in N. America (includes Mexico) 
which are 7-years on from commissioning, will be able to control their design 
fire.
  Essentially 25+% of owners are running without any active, automatic  fire 
protection in these occupancies...
  So by previous logic applied to defend LH in school gyms, since fires are not 
a big problem in Information Technology rooms,
  (at least not a big enough problem that they are a current industry concern 
of note) we could  then
  not put ANY pre-action SIPA sprinklers in Intformation Technology rooms 
because many of these rooms essentially don't have working sprinklers.
  And this has not created a problem of note.

Use of