RE: Diesel fuel tank capacities
Prolly because with weekly test runs, the fuel gets used up, and then it may or may not be topped off at ideal intervals. Sure would be bad to have a big tank o water and a big diesel ready to pump water into a million dollar sprinkler system, and it runs 15 minutes and stops for no fuel. Bet its happened and cost folks millions of dollars. George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel fuel tank capacities It's not, just a rule of thumb that works well enough. To answer your original question of why that number though I can't say. You can be down to 3/4 of a tank but that still leaves 6 hours by the formula. Considering automatic supplies in the rule perhaps? Why not an exception for a stored water only source then? Assuming going to half or less a tank between refills? That certainly happens. Enquiring minds want to know. On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Fairchild, Jack jfairch...@ballinger-ae.com wrote: Yup, according to the appendix that equates to 8 hours. Never knew fuel burn was a linear relation to horsepower. :) Jack Fairchild -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of isam hboubate Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel fuel tank capacities Hi Jack, As per NFPA 20 8-4.3* Fuel Tank Capacity. Fuel supply tank(s) shall have a capacity at least equal to 1 gal per horsepower (5.07 L/kW), plus 5 percent volume for expansion and 5 percent volume for sump. Larger-capacity tanks could be required and shall be determined by prevailing conditions, such as refill cycle and fuel heating due to recirculation, and shall be subject to special conditions in each case. The fuel supply tank and fuel shall be reserved exclusively for the fire pump diesel engine. regards Issam From: Fairchild, Jack jfairch...@ballinger-ae.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 6:31:43 PM Subject: Diesel fuel tank capacities Does anyone know why the fuel supply capacity for diesel fire pumps and emergency generators is 8 hours, when the maximum water supply duration I can find is 150 minutes? Is this because fuel tanks not kept full? Jack Fairchild ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NICET III
Regardless of how any of you feel, I can tell you that the change to the new format is considered by the group of industry veterans consulted to be a very good thing. We'd spent a lot of time re-thinking what each level means in today's world, since the existing metrics haven't been changed since started in 1980, based obviously on the industry of the 1970's. Off the top of my head, I think we started on this back in 2006, might have been 05- life's been a blur. We all got to know how to get to 1420 King St. The question writing sessions that all of you are invited to participate in have resulted in many more good questions to replace some of the why am I being tested on this questions, but I will warn that a strong working knowledge of the fundementals- without use of a pc- are still considered a requirement. You must know the relationships between variables and what results happen when you change a variables. Hey- we had to do it by hand, so now you young'uns still do. And by knowing how those formulas work, you should be able to stand in a bldg. without a laptop and calculate approx. pressure needed to produce a density, whether its feasible from looking at a supply, or you're just a GI-GO data inputer, not a sprinklerperson. But NICET didn't just elect to make changes without industry input to mess with ya. When you're in the Certification business, there are steps you have to take, T's to cross, I's to dot, and IP to protect. Otherwise its all worthless. George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NICET III I talked with the folks at NICET and all applications for any Element Based Testing have to be in no later than June of 2011. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NICET III What does that do to those of us who only lack one element to pass IV? Thanks, Greg On 12/8/2010 2:23 PM, Art Tiroly wrote: Soon the element testing program will not be available. The new test is comprehensive pass fail system. Check the NICET website for availability - coming soon. Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 Cell WWW.ATCOfirepro.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 3:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NICET III I believe that you need basic hydraulics for III, but you don't need to pass Advanced Hyd for III. You just need that for IV. It has been many years since I completed my IV, so I don't recall exactly where the breaks are. On 12/8/2010 1:19 PM, Brian Harris wrote: Am I off my rocker or is it possible to reach NICET III without having to take Advanced Hydraulics or Hydraulic Design Area? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16470) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum
RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump
Quickly. George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark.Phelps Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:42 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump How do you fill the systems without a JP? - Original Message - From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Tue Dec 07 07:22:41 2010 Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump Yes Ron I understand that the leakage is related to UG. That's why I'm asking how a JP applies to an aboveground (in the building) system. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump Craig, Look in 2010 20/4.25 for perhaps a better explanation. That business about allowable leakage applies to UG piping. There's a .normal drops in pressure.. clause in that sentence also and that refers to fluctuations for any reason. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:22 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: NFPA 20 2007, A.5.14.4 (1) A jockey pump is USUALLY required with automatically controlled pumps. So based on that statement what would be an example where a JP would USUALLY not be required? A.5.24 Pressure maintenance (jockey or make-up) pumps should be used where it is desirable to maintain a uniform or relatively high pressure on the fire protection system. A jockey pump should be sized to make up the allowable leakage rate within 10 minutes or 1 gpm (3.8 L/min), whichever is larger. But I should have no leakage, So...? 5.24.1 Pressure maintenance pumps shall have rated capacities not less than any normal leakage rate. My leakage rate should be zero? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jack Carlson Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump I seem to recall being told that a JP was required to keep the main pump from cycling on and off due to minor pressure fluctuations. Jack W. Carlson, SET Triple A Fire Protection, Inc. Cell - 706.247.5050 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump The question is what is the purpose of a JP in this application? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump So is the question this: The building needs a fire pump to meet hose emends at the roof. or: To meet hose demand at the roof the municipal pump kicks in. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: It's supplied off a pump supplemented private fire main. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump The artificially high pressure created by the jockey pump is usually necessary to prevent the main pump from starting because of fluctuations in the city pressure. If you have a very flat city curve it may be difficult to get a enough of a pressure drop from opening a hose valve to start the main pump. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From
RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump
Wouldn't you start it on pressure drop? I apologize but I'm fried and not looking in code for this. I can tell you it is permissible to start a pump from a detection system since we install systems where that's SOP. On a deluge valve you can have a remote start off the pressure switch, so I don't know why you couldn't start it from a WFS (or dry system PS). I can only imagine the pressure drop method is more reliable? Anyone on #20 or FGOL Tom? George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:55 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump Is it acceptable to trigger a fire pump from a flow switch if there is not jockey pump? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Frans Stoop Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 7:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump Craig, you are right. If your system doesn't leak at all you don't need a jockeypump. Unfortunately all sprinkler systems in the real world do leak. Most of the times so little that the moist evaporates before it drips. I know of systems where the jockeypump starts only once a month. In an almost identical system the jp starts twice a day. If you have some air buffer in a practically perfect network, the weekly test run of the fire pump may prevent the jp from starting ever. You may consider to omit the jockeypump in such a system. You may also change your mind when you are called in the middle of the night during Christmas holidays because the fire pump starts automatically and nobody knows why. (They skipped the weekly testrun because of the holidays.) Ergo: The only wet sprinkler system that doesn't need a jockeypump or other means for pressure maintenance is a theoretical system. BTW, A JP is also USUALLY not required when the pressure is maintained by an elevated fire water reservoir. Met vriendelijke groet / Yours sincerely, Frans Stoop TOS architecture fire protection Netherlands f.st...@tosfire.com Tel. +31-24-324 0112 At 15:22 6-12-2010 -0700, you wrote: NFPA 20 2007, A.5.14.4 (1) A jockey pump is USUALLY required with automatically controlled pumps. So based on that statement what would be an example where a JP would USUALLY not be required? A.5.24 Pressure maintenance (jockey or make-up) pumps should be used where it is desirable to maintain a uniform or relatively high pressure on the fire protection system. A jockey pump should be sized to make up the allowable leakage rate within 10 minutes or 1 gpm (3.8 L/min), whichever is larger. But I should have no leakage, So...? 5.24.1 Pressure maintenance pumps shall have rated capacities not less than any normal leakage rate. My leakage rate should be zero? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jack Carlson Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 5:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump I seem to recall being told that a JP was required to keep the main pump from cycling on and off due to minor pressure fluctuations. Jack W. Carlson, SET Triple A Fire Protection, Inc. Cell - 706.247.5050 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump The question is what is the purpose of a JP in this application? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump So is the question this: The building needs a fire pump to meet hose emends at the roof. or: To meet hose demand at the roof the municipal pump kicks in. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: It's supplied off a pump supplemented private fire main. Craig L. Prahl, CET
RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump
In my slash and burn days I left the JP off a pump installation, trying to make $ for my boss. We ended up putting one on later cause the pump would start. It wasn't tied in to central station, so it didn't bother the FD, but it would get warm if it happened at night- cause it ran till the AM. They did tie in to central station after a fire started and just one CSC 17/3-286 Model A from 1985 +/- saved a large mfg plant (EX HAZ 2 occupancy) so we're glad the right stuff was there- and that the SSU did its job. Cause otherwise we'd have had some liability issues to deal with, having installed orig system in 1985 (predecessor corp), just re=packed the pump after a long run, and added sprinklered 4 new plant expansion. After the fire they thought they turned off the spkr system by pushing the OFF button on the fire pump. I happened by shortly afterward and found 55 Psi from city still coming outa the head. George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 9:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump The same way it's done on any other project where there is no JP, from the fire loop. Plus there is a Fire pump and JP on the fire main. Anyway, I am leaving the JP in the package. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark.Phelps Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:42 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump How do you fill the systems without a JP? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump 2
And what happens in a dry system eroded to its trip point, or (gasp) a deluge system with empty pipe? Yes, I realize the deluge should be bracedand its true, when a pump kicks in, it can make the piping system shake and hangers are often next to unpainted strips of pipe cause they moved. Maybe we should in stall 8 quick-opening drains t undo that, and move the hangers back after a trip :) George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump 2 Just for arguments sake how does increasing the pressure damage the pipe and supports? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rahe.lof...@gsa.gov Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump That is the main reason for a jockey (pressure maintenance) pump. If the fire pump were to start into a low pressure line, the differential could cause physical damage to the piping and supports. Thank You Rahe Loftin, P.E. Region 7 - GSA Cell - 817-371-3102 Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com To Sent by: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum-bo cc un...@firesprinkl er.orgSubject Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump 12/06/2010 02:17 PM Please respond to sprinklerfo...@fi resprinkler.org For one, so that there is no or little surge in pressure when the fire pump kicks in At 03:06 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote: I'm not used to buildings where there's nothing in it that will leave a huge smoking crater so got a question. 8 story office building, need to meet the 100 psi requirement for the top remote hose connection, engineer has spec'd an electric fire pump and jockey pump set. There is sufficient pressure and flow at the BOR for sprinkler system operation but not hose. Is there really a need for a jockey pump on this type of install? Since JP's are typically for maintaining pressure on underground systems where leakage is typical what's the purpose in a system like this? Any NFPA verbiage which permits their omission? So far I haven't found anything specific. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump
Whether we can explain them or not, there are times when Jps kick on even tho they may be connected to interior (non-leaking) systems. If the fire pump kicks in, the FD arrives, building empties. So you install a JP to prevent the fire pump from rolling trucks, bothering tenants, and making up for the air that once was simply trapped air, as it dissolves into the sprinkler water maybe? George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump The question is what is the purpose of a JP in this application? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump So is the question this: The building needs a fire pump to meet hose emends at the roof. or: To meet hose demand at the roof the municipal pump kicks in. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: It's supplied off a pump supplemented private fire main. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 4:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump The artificially high pressure created by the jockey pump is usually necessary to prevent the main pump from starting because of fluctuations in the city pressure. If you have a very flat city curve it may be difficult to get a enough of a pressure drop from opening a hose valve to start the main pump. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 1:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: High Rise Office Jockey pump 132 psi static, 120 psi residual, is that low pressure? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rahe.lof...@gsa.gov Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 3:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump That is the main reason for a jockey (pressure maintenance) pump. If the fire pump were to start into a low pressure line, the differential could cause physical damage to the piping and supports. Thank You Rahe Loftin, P.E. Region 7 - GSA Cell - 817-371-3102 Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com To Sent by: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum-bo cc un...@firesprinkl er.org Subject Re: High Rise Office Jockey pump 12/06/2010 02:17 PM Please respond to sprinklerfo...@fi resprinkler.org For one, so that there is no or little surge in pressure when the fire pump kicks in At 03:06 PM 12/6/2010, you wrote: I'm not used to buildings where there's nothing in it that will leave a huge smoking crater so got a question. 8 story office building, need to meet the 100 psi requirement for the top remote hose connection, engineer has spec'd an electric fire pump and jockey pump set. There is sufficient pressure and flow at the BOR for sprinkler system operation but not hose. Is there really a need for a jockey pump on this type of install? Since JP's are typically for maintaining pressure on underground systems where leakage is typical what's the purpose in a system like this? Any NFPA verbiage which permits their omission? So far I haven't found anything specific. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive
RE: Fire pump station
We went thru this a couple years ago on a residential project; the AHJ questioned whether a fire pump could serve multiple buildings. I sought letters from a TC member of 13 and 20, the two affected standards, and both agreed, in writing, that the intent of both TC's was that this was acceptable. Virtually any large complex that needs a pump-or if redundancy is sought, pumps- feeding a power plant, a manufacturing complex, has more buildings than pumps. Should present no problems and be in compliance with the two applicable standards, 13 and 20. George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 1:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire pump station Isam, Depends. Who makes the determination? Many times where there are multiple buildings on one property a single pump, etc. is used for all buildings (design yo most demanding building). Sometimes each building on a multi-building property will have its own pump. I've rarely seen a single pump on one property servicing multiple, independent properties but I have seen it. Again, the question is who decides and based on what criteria. On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:56 PM, isam hboubate emhdisam2...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear All, I am working in a design fire fighting system for three buildings near each other. Can one fire pump station (water tank,pumps ,pumps controler) , serve multi buildings ? Or is there any building protection area limited for each fire pump station. Thank you. Regards, Issam Hb ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: how junk applies
So, did you take her advice? George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 1:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: how junk applies Points well taken Cecil (as in thank you sir may I have another). Oddly enough, I had you and your kids in mind when I figured the 60 watt bulb versus a gallon of milk on the moon. If I was an excellent instructor, I would teach hand calcs first like you do, but also offer extra credit for calcing the same set-up on the moon, given only that water weighs 12 lbs/ft^3 there. 'moonshots of milk' relates The First Law of Thermodynamics with what is called the most far reaching generalization of the human mind- The Law of Gravitation, so moonshots applies to sprinkler work only as far as heat and pressure do. The 2 or 3 out of 10 that get the extra credit are the ones who will some day hear that click or whistle or gong or whatever it is that turns a heart in to a big sprinkler head. I gotta believe the finer wealth you seek is to increase that number- then you can coach the annual Acadamy Techs vs U of Maryland FPE game, and win! I can not tell you how the numbers I wrote below have any bearing on you designing a system, but then, that is not why I posted them- that reason is more along the lines of 'hey everybody, look what the TECH drug in'! Thanks for the 'curious energy' part, I think. It is both a blessing and a curse: just before she was the X, the X told me write a book, I'll read it, BUT SHUT UP ALREADY. Truly sincerely, Brad - Brad, I am not sure about what is really going on here. Your messages make little sense to me as they apply to the industry and what we do. Possibilities are endless in our world. Let's stick to the realities and rules rather than such things as moonshots of milk and possible number of iterations for a certain number of sprinkler heads to have various demands. If the numbers you wrote below have any bearing on my designing a system, please tell me how. I would love to find a way to harness that curious energy of yours (I'd be friggin' rich), but I need to know how junk applies. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL www.sprinkleracademy.com From: bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: loose end 2 of 2 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:49:44 -0600 #calcs=(2^#hds)-1 # of heads 1 2 3 4 5 6 # of calcs 1 3 7 15 31 ? Difference 2 4 8 16 32 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Waterflow switch issue
But Frank, those are the lessons learned that we NEVER forget! George Church' Rowe Sprinkler g...@rowesprinkler.com 570-837-7647 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Frank Herrick Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:11 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: Waterflow switch issue I wanted to take this opportunity to clear up a post I had made earlier concerning leaking flow switch. Yesterday I spoke at length to the senior manager at System Sensor who took his valuable time to fully explain this issue to me. I have no doubt that the quality assurance programs in place quickly caught this issue, and in fact a technical bulletin that I was not aware of was issued for this minor problem. After learning the complete narrative and everything that this company did to stand behind their product, I would not hesitate to recommend, specify and use any of the System Sensor company products. Lesson Learned: Check with the people who know, before sticking foot in mouth. FRANK J. HERRICK City Of Leawood Fire Department Office of the Fire Marshal 14801 Mission Road Leawood, Ks. 66224-9560 Office: 913.681.6788 x 26 Fax: 913.681.2399 Fire Sprinklers Save Lives, Property, the Environment, and Water - Protect what you value most! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4 Send Sprinklerforum mailing list submissions to sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org You can reach the person managing the list at sprinklerforum-ow...@firesprinkler.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Sprinklerforum digest... ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: I'm speechless (Steve Dobson Article)
I don't have time to tear it apart but here's some approximation: $65m spkr market in PA with IRC mandate We're a big state, so 40x this is nat'l market, divided by 3,000 home fire deaths a year = $866,666/life saved, once we work up to all homes sprinklered as stock rotates (we're a generation or 3 behind already). Now that may be cheap for the average cost of losing a house a wage-earner with $500k life insurance. However, what isn't reflected there is costs where there aren't a death. We just sprinklered a fire rebuild, and the insurance agent said he was approaching $1m in replacing the house, contents, replacement housing for a year, vehicles and garage that were near the fire and totaled, etc. and the family was out of state, unhurt. So Basing on the number of fire deaths alone doesn't reflect the savings to society, and cuts the $866k number by a good bit. I haven't had enough sleep to raise anyting to a power in a furmuler this AM. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: I'm speechless (Steve Dobson Article) James, At first glance there appears to be a lot of reasonable argument here. I'm going to re-visit it all and try to tear it apart. I hope I'm unsuccessful. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Firestone, James james.firest...@fire.org.nz wrote: Ten years ago in New Zealand we started down the home sprinkler path. Interestingly enough almost twenty years earlier one of the research departments of one of the leading plumbing pipe manufacturers over here had designed a pre-action sprinkler system, charged with air using a simple pressure diaphragm valve and an alarm panel to alert the owner should the pressure reduce below what was required to keep the system dry - then just using a bike pump the owner could repressurize the system. Simple low cost kiwi ingenuity. Unfortunately it was an idea a little ahead of its time and didn't move out of the research room. Putting water on a fire has been around since we thought all of matter was composed in part from these two ingredients (earth and wind being the other two). The technology to do so automatically has been around for well over a 100 years so one would think that the time to bring this into homes where we experience most fires is a no-brainer! So why the resistance? I've had some time to ponder this question, so will lay out a roadmap for moving forward. 1) Some of it is ignorance - as I have yet to meet more than a handful of people who argue against the value and benefit of sprinklers. (once they understand them)! So clear, simple, progressive and concise educational targeted messages is key. 2) Cost will always be a barrier as someone has to pay and unless you could make sprinklers cost neutral by trade-ups/offs, insurance rebates etc. then individuals would rather choose what they buy - after all it is their dollar! Regulation can help here as the public on the whole don't want an anything goes society. The whole reason for creating laws is to have a just, safe, empowered and enabling community. Often however regulation is viewed as a bureaucracy, so again education which is simple, clear and promotes understanding of the why for the law can help. I've recently had the good fortune to meet many of the personalities in the home sprinkler industry in the Western world and all celebrate the successes which you have achieved in enabling the IRC to require home sprinklers. It is a fantastic step in the right direction - but as all involved in this fight have experienced much more work will need to be done. 3) System complexity. I know a lot of research money has gone into refining the sprinkler head droplet density, spray pattern, etc. But all the public really need to know is that it is a TAP. Sure you can clarify this by explaining it operates automatically from hot gases (given off by a fire), is located in the ceiling plane where the hot gases collect, has no moving parts, only works once, so wont leak. Looks nice, is out of sight, etc, etc. But what we should really be promoting is sprinkler technology, as the sprinkler head is the only unique addition to (what is already in a house). That's right plumbing! We need to connect with the homeowner to want to have the best plumbing they can afford - as few houses are not plumbed! Sprinkler technology is a natural and common sense addition to the evolution of (bringing) water into the home to increase its service and benefit to us. Just think about it. Plumbing was first brought into the home for the amenity of drinking, then cooking, then washing, then cleaning, then showering, then heating, then cooling, then flushing away waste, to this we can (with the humble heat TAP aka sprinkler head) add
RE: Omitting sprinklers in a high building
There are ASRS buildings taller than that with ceiling sprinklers- and yes, a zillion IRASs. And storage is certainly getting closer to routinely exceeding 50, 55' as soon as the next generation of ESFRs come out. We'll see em go as high as the new FM lab ceiling. Gotta go- new server being deployed tonight. Cross your fingers (I know, some of you already have em crossed!) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Omitting sprinklers in a high building If the building code considers this an F-2 occupancy and the building can meet the egress requirements without sprinklers, and there are no other code issues that would require sprinklers then they would be correct that you wouldn't need sprinklers. It has nothing to do with building height. Even if the building were 100 feet hight, if a fire were to break out the products of combustion are going where, to the heighest point. Sprinklers may react slower due to the height but at some point they are going to react and will help knock down the gas temps. I've asked the same question and had gotten this answer back from different mfgr engineers. They are the ones doing the design, testing and listings for the sprinklers and I hope they would know. So to say that just because the building is high there shouldn't be any sprinklers is not valid. If the biulding were an F-1 occupancy you'd have sprinklers period. Otherwise you don't meet code. To sprinkler or not to sprinkler is not up to NFPA 13, it's a building code issue. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona [r...@rapidfireinc.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Omitting sprinklers in a high building Another thought may be: Mr. Customer, Here are the code references that require sprinklers. There may be a prescriptive way of eliminating the sprinklers in this area so I have provided pricing both ways. If the sprinklers are to be eliminated please have the EOR give that order in writing to protect both you and I from the lawyers in the future, if the worst ever happens Many times just because we can eliminate sprinklers doesn't mean that we shouldn't present the option to the owner in a way that he understands that he IS taking more risk. How much more risk is clearly debatable but I would leave that to him and the EOR/AHJ. You may be surprised at what some owners are willing to pay to avoid risk in the future. It may seem like a big number to us sprinkies but compared to the cost of the project maybe not too much to them.especially in a manufacturing facility. This may be a way to distinguish yourself from your competition by showing that they are required. He may have more confidence in you which may result in a sale with or without the coverage. Rod Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 2:42 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Omitting sprinklers in a high building Effective at 50' in what occupancy? Storage to 45' sure, convention set up maybe, light hazard atrium, maybe not. Of course we'd probably need to start with what is 'effective'. With a square function there is a BIG difference between 50' and 119' in the heat at the roof to even make them go off. That is not to say they are not required by code as they are no matter what height (with others referenced exceptions). But a good FPE and reasonable AHJ you MIGHT be able omit. Your competition is suspect with a blanket statement to the effect. If they go with the competition make sure the customer enforces the contract and no extras for the roof. Bet they change their tune. As AHJ back in '99 I agreed with omitting the sprinklers at the roof in the NHL Wild arena. Can't recall the exact height but it's in the 150' range. We burned a 10 MW fire in the old arena and at 100' it was very doubtful the sprinklers would operate. We had instrumentation. The design fires we set at 10 MW when occupied on the upper levels and larger if no one above the main concourse. For the boat shows we acknowledged larger fires were possible BUT the size of the ice (fuel area), very infrequent events, large paid FD and fire prevention personal from the FD on site when open to the public were mitigating factors. There are also an array of beam smoke detectors to help with early detection. Remember this was pre FDS days. 10 years later I'd still stand behind the concept. Chris Cahill -Original Message- From:
RE: reduce then increase pipe sizes
You're missing the code citation he can't furnish. If it works hydraulically, it works. I recall a raised eyebrow on a 4 riser feeding a 6 crossmain; very simply, I used the excess pressure where it saved my boss the most money, in the riser devices. But nothing in 13 says you need to go from big to small consistently. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 8:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: reduce then increase pipe sizes I am working on an existing system where we have to tie in a new 2-1/2 main into an existing 3. Since they do not make a 3x2-1/2 mechanical tee, that option is out. My proposal is to utilize an existing plugged 2 outlet, install a 2 x 0-6 TxG nipple and then increase to 2-1/2. It works hydraulically with 18+ psi left over (reducing the 2-1/2 main not an option hydraulically). I don't see anything in the Code that states that it is not allowed. However, the AHJ says it isn't. Before I argue the point, am I missing something? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: reduce then increase pipe sizes
We've got a project where we need 8 UG for the calcs, and the main in the street is 6. 6x6 tap, increase to 8, we're on our way. The water purveyor is not going to replace a block or two of existing UG. And look at 13D systems- certainly not unusual to have a 3/4 UG supply increased to 1 for the sprinkler riser after the tee. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 8:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: reduce then increase pipe sizes Todd, I've seen this done in the past. In fact, there are a lot of times when it's done by the water purveyors during a tap on the main underground line. Not sure of a specific code reference. If common sense is an option you can point to NFPA 20 that allows a smaller size supply to feed a fire pump (ie 6 line feeding an 8 pump) if you go a certain number of feet (in pipe diameters) back and increase the pipe at that point. I believe the whole basis for hydraulic calculations is that if you can prove it works within the boundaries set forth in the standards then it is acceptable. You can reduce pipe sizes to balance a system when you are working with foam. I don't think this is really any different. Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: reduce then increase pipe sizes I am working on an existing system where we have to tie in a new 2-1/2 main into an existing 3. Since they do not make a 3x2-1/2 mechanical tee, that option is out. My proposal is to utilize an existing plugged 2 outlet, install a 2 x 0-6 TxG nipple and then increase to 2-1/2. It works hydraulically with 18+ psi left over (reducing the 2-1/2 main not an option hydraulically). I don't see anything in the Code that states that it is not allowed. However, the AHJ says it isn't. Before I argue the point, am I missing something? Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: High Pressure Dry Pendents
Considering all sprinklers are tested at 500 PSI, I doubt that they raise that to 700 and market those that stay together as high pressure. Dave, assuming the dry system supply- fire pump?- is 215, you could run a water delivery calc with a head operating and see if the pressure in the system really reaches 215 PSI with the decrease in pressure as water fills the pipe, and then when its full (or its equalized with trapped air) is one head flowing enough to bring the pressure below 175? Or depending on what the value of the contents is, susceptibility to water damage, owner tolerance for risk, it wouldn't be a quantum leap to allow a little over 200 PSI- where we often hydro for min 2 hrs anyway- and ask the AHJ to APPROVE the higher pressure. If I was entitled to an opinion, it would be that this would be fine. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: High Pressure Dry Pendents What's the criteria for that 175 psi limit. I don't think it's burst pressure. Is it that haven't been tested for operation any higher than 175? Are 225 heads a special more robust head than 175 heads? Or are they just 175 heads that got tested and listed to 225. I remember PT tests in the Army. The performance criteria was always X number in Y time. You were done when you exhausted either so it was that one could meet X in Y in be done and pass although not out of strength and so still be able to continue and perform X in Y. I this a similar thing? And if so how willing are you to put that PE behind exceeding the listing? On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: Have you looked into pressure reducing valves? I don't know if there are any that are listed for dry system use though... Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of David de Vries Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:42 PM To: AFSA SprinklerForum Subject: High Pressure Dry Pendents I have an open parking garage under a high rise. Fire pump sized for standpipe demand, so it has over 200 psi at the garage level. Most of the dry pipe system in the garage has uprights, but there are some finished ceiling areas that need dry pendents. I have not found any dry pendents listed for more than 175. Suggestions? Of course, for most of the time the system will only see the ~50 psi air, but when the valve trips, it will be about 215. Am I wrong to think the DP's should be listed for the static system pressure? Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: Fletcher, Ron sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 6:41 PM Hello Ron, It is not a building, Wooden walkway to a floating dock. Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 5:16:36 PM, you wrote: Since the building and the sprinkler system are subject to the same ambient conditions wouldn't the expansion rates kind of offset each other? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; fpech...@embarqmail.com Subject: RE: Pipe Expansion Also remember that a simple change in direction can provide the same protection as a full expansion loop. Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the
RE: Paint spray booth
Keep It Simple, Stupid. (its an expression, I'm not directing that at anyone!) -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jhoff...@kcp.com Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 4:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Paint spray booth So if you do a separate valve for each booth what about the duct? They all probably use the same exhaust duct. A separate valve for the duct?. Now you have four valves. If they are doing maintenance on one booth I bet they are all shut down for business. Just use one valve unless they are widely separated in space. John Hoffman P.E. | Fire Protection Engineer | Facility Engineering Services, KCP, LLC - Burns McDonnell Engineering | National Nuclear Security Administration's Kansas City Plant | Operated by Honeywell FMT | 2000 E. 95th St | Kansas City, MO 64131 | ph 816-997-7213 | jhoff...@kcp.com From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: 11/11/2010 03:40 PM Subject:RE: Paint spray booth Sent by:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org It would be easier to do separate drops with separate valves to each area. Will make it easier to maintain when you have to shut one down to clean heads or replace bags on the heads or if you have a discharge you don't have to disable all systems just the one affected. Plus if a booth or mixing area is moved it makes disconnecting and removal of the system simpler. Hopefully the budget isn't that tight to not be able to afford a few more butterfly valves. Craig Prahl CH2MHILL/SPB 864-599-4102 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva [silva...@shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Paint spray booth NFPA 13, 2007 section 21.4.1.5 : The sprinkler system for each spray area and mixing room shall be controlled by a separate, listed indicating valve(s), operable from the floor. I have two spray booths and a mixing booth side by side. Can one valve supply the three booths or are three valves required, one per booth? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy
Correct. And if the total # of heads in a dwelling unit is 4, you can QR. Finally, someone treating a fraternity commiserate with the exposure? Or would concealed heads be enough protection from mechanical injury so you could use the residential heads you should use? Threat of someone hanging themselves? Don't forget you'll need .1 for the QRs vrs .05. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy I have a R2 occupancy that is to be sprinklered per NFPA13R (07ed). The architect wants to use quick response institutional sprinklers. It appears that per 6.7.7.1.3 I can use QR sprinklers inside the dwelling unit only if it meets the definition of a compartment with no more than 4 sprinklers. If the dwelling unit contains multiple rooms (ie: bathroom, kitchen, ect.) then this unit would not qualify because it is not single compartment correct? What if with all the compartments together there would only be 4 sprinklers? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI http://www.designbuildfire.com/ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy
Concealed residential would be a far better application and address the mechanical injury concerns- institutionals are going to be way salty and what do you have to mount them to? Jeez, I was joking about the frat, I can see architect's concerns, but are folks really going to try to hang themselves from it? Wouldn't there be easier ways like alcohol poisoning? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy Yep it is a frat house. I am trying to convince the arch to go with the concealed type res sprinklers. The only place we would have to use semi-recessed is when throwing across the 4/12 ceilings. Thanks for the information. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy Correct. And if the total # of heads in a dwelling unit is 4, you can QR. Finally, someone treating a fraternity commiserate with the exposure? Or would concealed heads be enough protection from mechanical injury so you could use the residential heads you should use? Threat of someone hanging themselves? Don't forget you'll need .1 for the QRs vrs .05. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy I have a R2 occupancy that is to be sprinklered per NFPA13R (07ed). The architect wants to use quick response institutional sprinklers. It appears that per 6.7.7.1.3 I can use QR sprinklers inside the dwelling unit only if it meets the definition of a compartment with no more than 4 sprinklers. If the dwelling unit contains multiple rooms (ie: bathroom, kitchen, ect.) then this unit would not qualify because it is not single compartment correct? What if with all the compartments together there would only be 4 sprinklers? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI http://www.designbuildfire.com/ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Stand-Alone Residential Systems White Paper
Steve, I'd note that there are many water purveyors requiring a split outside the home and a separate valve on the domestic so they'll shut off domestic service, not sprinkler, for non-payment. Inadvertently screwing the plumbers trying to do a multi-purpose, I can hardly sleep at night for the injustice. However, I combat that by inviting them to our residential sprinkler seminars since if they think they want in on it, they should know more, not less, and hopefully join the Association for all the ed benefits. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Muncy Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Stand-Alone Residential Systems White Paper The AFSA White Paper on Stand-Alone Residential Fire Sprinkler Systems is now available on the AFSA website and can be downloaded by members and non-members. The paper describes some advantages of stand-alone systems over multipurpose systems and some situations in which multipurpose systems may not be appropriate. This document may be helpful to AHJs who are not aware of the differences between multi-purpose and stand-alone systems and the advantages and disadvantages of each. The document can be downloaded from: http://www.firesprinkler.org/downloads/AFSA-8065.pdf Steve A. Muncy, CAE American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pipe Expansion
If you want to see a dramatic illustration of pipe expansion, look at CPVC in a hotel hallway after they run a salamander for a couple days. Witnessed this on one of our jobs 2 years ago, couple feet of zig-zag side to side. I'll worry about long-term effects if the Owner pays us the last $27,440 he stuck us for as he ran out of money at end of job. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 12:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion The expansion is the expansion no matter what fittings are employed, well on unrestrained steel. A fitting does not in itself restrain the pipe. Either the pipe moves or the want to move is translated into some internal force. The effect of the expansion it dependent on the fittings and the restraintment. -Original Message- From: David de Vries ddevr...@firetecheng.net Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 08:40:57 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion You are right about whether this is a continuous run of pipe. Putting back-to-back swing joints in a long run can change the dynamics completely. Cast, ductile and malleable iron all have about the same thermal coefficient of expansion as steel. So screwed fittings would be the same as continous welded pipe. The difference that grooved couplings could make depends on the style. If rigid, then it would be the same as screwed fittings, but other couplings have some ability to flex and move, so might be better for such a situation (long, continous run of pipe with big temp swings). Railroad track layers (don't know if that is the right trade name) have this figured out for welded track. Every mile or two they stretch the track with a hydraulic puller to simulate the condition at the highest foreseeable temp. The track then is in tension at colder temps, but does not buckle on a hot, sunny day. Not applicable to sprinkler trade, just a curious thing I learned from the Chief Engr for a railroad here in Chicago while we were surveying his totally destroyed wood trestle which burned following some hotwork by an outside contractor. BTW, a mile of track expands 4'3 from -10F to 110F. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: From: Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com Subject: Re: Pipe Expansion To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 10:08 AM Of course that assumes a continuous run of 200 ft. The inclusion of cast iron screwed or grooved fittings may have an impact At 10:52 AM 11/10/2010, you wrote: Carbon steel: expansion = 6.7 x 10^-6 x L. x delta T. Example: 200 feet of steel pipe installed at 30 degrees F and raised to 100 degrees F. 6.7 x 10^-6 x 200ft x 12in/ft x 70degrees = 1.13 inches Copper: 9.3 x 10^-6 The source, Perry's Engineering Manual, puts a range on that coefficient of 32 to 212 degrees F. For down and dirty purposes, this should work to foreseeable colder temps. Dave David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP Firetech Engineering Incorporated --- On Wed, 11/10/10, Charles Thurston coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote: From: Charles Thurston coastalf...@sc.rr.com Subject: Pipe Expansion To: sprinklerforum sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wednesday, November 10, 2010, 8:10 AM Hello sprinklerforum, Does anybody know of a down and dirty chart or calculator to figure pipe expansion lengths due to temperature change ? -- Best regards, Charles Thurston mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com Coastal Fire Protection/ Myrtle Beach Fire Safety Group. AFAA Guest Electronic Privacy Notice: This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance,
RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy
So pledges should receive small souvenir bats and metal straps as their welcome package, not balls, etc. Seriously, good stuff Jim- Thanks! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Davidson Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 1:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy There was a project in the Mid Atlantic region in which the Architect specified Institutional QR heads in a mid rise student housing building. Three days after the students moved in there was a fairly large water damage claim resulting from damage to the Institutional sprinklers from the students throwing around balls, etc. Needless to say it occurred on the top floor level and flowed downhill. Institutional type sprinkler heads should be used in the occupancy that they were designed for. The last frat house that we worked on the Owner wanted the pipe to be able to support at least five times the weight of the water filled pipe plus 500 pounds and wanted the strongest head guard that is manufactured to be used on all sprinkler heads in the frat house and wanted all pipe to be scheduled 40. Jim Davidson Davidson Associates Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting 302-994-9500 Fax:302-234-1781 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy Yep it is a frat house. I am trying to convince the arch to go with the concealed type res sprinklers. The only place we would have to use semi-recessed is when throwing across the 4/12 ceilings. Thanks for the information. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy Correct. And if the total # of heads in a dwelling unit is 4, you can QR. Finally, someone treating a fraternity commiserate with the exposure? Or would concealed heads be enough protection from mechanical injury so you could use the residential heads you should use? Threat of someone hanging themselves? Don't forget you'll need .1 for the QRs vrs .05. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 8:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: QR sprinklers in R2 occupancy I have a R2 occupancy that is to be sprinklered per NFPA13R (07ed). The architect wants to use quick response institutional sprinklers. It appears that per 6.7.7.1.3 I can use QR sprinklers inside the dwelling unit only if it meets the definition of a compartment with no more than 4 sprinklers. If the dwelling unit contains multiple rooms (ie: bathroom, kitchen, ect.) then this unit would not qualify because it is not single compartment correct? What if with all the compartments together there would only be 4 sprinklers? Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI http://www.designbuildfire.com/ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http
RE: CPVC question
We've done office buildings in CPVC where they had a tenant and were dropping ceilings, and steel in balance of shell. Tell em to have a fire watch and leave it for 24 hours; if they want shorter, have em assume the liability of the flood that may follow. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC question 10-4. I'm only trying to be sure that my butt is covered if this guy wants to use it. The main thing that concerns me is the 24 hr set up time. How can you meet that in a tenant finish building? I'm sure that someone at some time will want to put a ceiling in and when they do, then you have a problem (in my opinion). I have nothing against plastic and use it all the time. I just don't think this is a good place to use it. Thanks for the input. I'll email Lbzl. Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 11:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC question Nice try Cliff - you'll have to get Lubrizol to commit to that. But if the tube is listed for wood framed basements, I'm pretty sure than pan slab or metal deck is okay, but you'll have to get it from the manufacturer. SML -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC question Steve, I've done a little more digging and have found something in the handbook that concerns me. On page 57 of the 2007 HB under Exhibit 3.37 there is a note that says Although this type of construction is typically considered smooth ceiling, it is not considered a smooth, flat ceiling ... In the Blazemaster 'bible' on page 8 it states - smooth, flat, horizontal fixed ceilings Does this now meet the listing of the pipe? Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 11:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: CPVC question Yes, so long as it is protected with quick-response sprinklers Steve -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:06 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: CPVC question Hi folks Can CPVC be installed exposed in a light hazard occupancy with 'pan type' construction? Just for the record, I am not recommending CPVC for this project but the owner is bent on using it for some reason. This is a 4-story shell office building and many of the areas will be left exposed even after spaces are finished. Thanks, Cliff Whitfield, SET President Fire Design, Inc. 850-526-1886 cl...@fire-design.com www.fire-design.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
RE: Physical Science :)
have all the time in the world. There is stuff buried in these texts that is not in the index and unless you've stumbled across it before and tagged it, you'd never find it. Digital is here, now, not waiting for the next generation. As far as the question concerning why NICET uses particular versions, it is probably due to the amount of work involved with reworking a test. Plus not all jurisdictions jump on the new Standard immediately upon its publication. I still have many jurisdictions using the 2002 NFPA 13 and had one earlier in the year that was still on the 1996 version. It would be a significant task to develop a new test each time a new standard came out. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:50 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) We old timers are used to paper, but the next generation will probably be much more geared to digital. Somehow NICET and others will need to adapt. Agencies are not going to continue print issues just for some open book testing agency. I agree that finding information in a tabbed text is still a lot quicker than a computer search. But perhaps testing agencies will have to provide computer access to certain reference materials as a part of the computer testing procedure. Brian, as far as your question, I have wondered that as well. Perhaps they use a random number generator At 09:21 AM 11/3/2010, you wrote: Here's a question for some of you veterans, how does NICET come up with what year code will be on the test? I don't get why some of these codes are 2,3, and greater revisions behind the current one Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to search and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st century with this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference books to a test. Had one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote the load up the stairs. Just plain ridiculous. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf
RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING
You should be fine. For an FBI secure room we had a pair of pces of 2.5 CPVC for a 4 main cause that's what we had, and I wasn't buying 15' of 3 for 6'. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I was able to calc it down with a short piece of 3 CPVC pipe. Then just use the CPVC x Grooved adapters. Hopefully this will fly. It is all light hazard. On 11/4/2010 10:30 AM, Ron Greenman wrote: 3 max on CPVC. On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Do you mean the room is some kind of secure communications? I did one recently- No metallic PENETRATION of the walls- (like an antenna) - I guess a non metallic coupling would be like breaking the antenna- I went steel up to the wall, steel to cpvc, cpvc through the wall, then back to steel. Is 4 cpvc made? -Original Message- From: Travis Mack, SET [mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I am working on a military project. I have to provide a non-metallic coupling on one side of wall. It is a penetration into a secured area. Any ideas on what to use as a non-metallic coupling for 4 sch 40 pipe? -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING
And it may be they need non-metallic the length of the wall thickness -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING Good deal-- Ron F. idea of di-electric would probably work physically-- stop the flow of electrons-- but they are not 'non-metallic'. -Original Message- From: Travis Mack, SET [mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I was able to calc it down with a short piece of 3 CPVC pipe. Then just use the CPVC x Grooved adapters. Hopefully this will fly. It is all light hazard. On 11/4/2010 10:30 AM, Ron Greenman wrote: 3 max on CPVC. On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Do you mean the room is some kind of secure communications? I did one recently- No metallic PENETRATION of the walls- (like an antenna) - I guess a non metallic coupling would be like breaking the antenna- I went steel up to the wall, steel to cpvc, cpvc through the wall, then back to steel. Is 4 cpvc made? -Original Message- From: Travis Mack, SET [mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I am working on a military project. I have to provide a non-metallic coupling on one side of wall. It is a penetration into a secured area. Any ideas on what to use as a non-metallic coupling for 4 sch 40 pipe? -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING
Yup. At GE Aerospace in pre-CPVC days, I think we did a di-electric union (or flanges) on either side of the wall. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NON-METALLIC COUPLING It is concrete wall. The detail on the contract drawings shows the coupling at 6 inside of the secure area. I think what we have will serve the purpose. On 11/4/2010 10:53 AM, Brad Casterline wrote: True, in my case they did, but if they just specified coupling on Travis' job, maybe they know the break will avoid the entire system being one huge antenna. Hopefully the wall is not metal stud! -Original Message- From: George Church [mailto:for...@ptd.net] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:48 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING And it may be they need non-metallic the length of the wall thickness -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: NON-METALLIC COUPLING Good deal-- Ron F. idea of di-electric would probably work physically-- stop the flow of electrons-- but they are not 'non-metallic'. -Original Message- From: Travis Mack, SET [mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I was able to calc it down with a short piece of 3 CPVC pipe. Then just use the CPVC x Grooved adapters. Hopefully this will fly. It is all light hazard. On 11/4/2010 10:30 AM, Ron Greenman wrote: 3 max on CPVC. On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Do you mean the room is some kind of secure communications? I did one recently- No metallic PENETRATION of the walls- (like an antenna) - I guess a non metallic coupling would be like breaking the antenna- I went steel up to the wall, steel to cpvc, cpvc through the wall, then back to steel. Is 4 cpvc made? -Original Message- From: Travis Mack, SET [mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: NON-METALLIC COUPLING I am working on a military project. I have to provide a non-metallic coupling on one side of wall. It is a penetration into a secured area. Any ideas on what to use as a non-metallic coupling for 4 sch 40 pipe? -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman
RE: Residential Room Design Method?
I believe Mr Caputo is under contract with NFPA to respond to requests for interpretation, and that agreement precedes Mr Lake's departure to NFSA. As a TC member he can give his opinion, but unless the TC considered it, it is not official. I've used TC member informal opinions often and rarely encounter resistance. I've also submitted responses from the Forum- both supporting and opposing my position- to an AHJ so he can see the responses. I also explain who the respondents are, so the credibility of the source can be considered. We're strong proponents of AHJ training. I was frustrated by seeing only a competitor or two at Convention and/or other seminars so if they don't want to learn the code (and changes to it) then teach em to the AHJs so THEY Can inform them in plan review and inspection. We've got about 20 or 25 coming tonight to a firehouse (that we obtained use of for free) from 6-8 PM for pizza and an intro to Residential Sprinklers, trying to de-mystify them and show how simple they are. Afterward, attendees are invited to see a 13D installation we did last week (with associated media coverage) which is a mile down the road. If we all reach out to do this once a month, even once a quarter, we'll eventually have a group of people who may not understand it all, but they've got the basic understanding that Res Spkrs are not intimidating, unaffordable, ugly, or something that will drown you. We have a very long way to go, and the sooner we start working the crowd, the sooner we'll get sprinklers elected. Stop being part of the problem and start being part of the solution! A projector, laptop, and a PPT is all you need. Borrow a projector if you need to, but go and do SOMETHING! glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Letterman, Todd Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 6:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Residential Room Design Method? He is now a fill in for Jim Lake of NFPA. Todd Letterman Fire Prevention Engineer CFPS Riverside County Fire Department Fire never sleeps (951) 955-5273 FAX (951) 955-4886 todd.letter...@fire.ca.gov Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass but learning how to dance in the rain -Original Message- From: Forest Wilson [mailto:cherokeefire...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 2:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential Room Design Method? I think that NFPA is forwarding emails they receive through this system to select committee members. That is why you were under the impression that Caputo is NFPA. He is a committee member, not a representative of NFPA. (unless something has changed). On 11/2/2010 5:23 PM, Forest Wilson wrote: You need to be a member to receive an informal interpretation from the AFSA or NFSA. Is Bob's letter to you a formal interpretation or informal? It was my understanding that single committee members do not have standing to issue formal interpretations, only the committee could. On 11/2/2010 5:05 PM, Carrol Glimstad wrote: I did go that route... I instead received a response from Mr. Caputo with NFPA and he informed me that per 2002, ...the small rooms rule is not applicable to the design consideration for residential occupancies.Unless I am wrong, (which I frequently am) although he (Roland) is a committee member of the TCC for NFPA, he is with AFSA. Trust me, I would LOVE to get an official response from Mr. Huggins! How would I go about getting one from AFSA (i.e. Roland) ? But I do think I will forward some excerpts of this thread and see where that gets me. (probably nowhere that I want to be...) Carrol Glimstad Sierra Fire Design 916.475.4928 From: Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C]johnson...@mail.nih.gov To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.orgsprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 12:59:44 PM Subject: RE: Residential Room Design Method? NFPA has an email accounts setup for all NFPA codes where you can submit questions and receive code interpretations and technical answers. The format is setup as nf...@nfpa.org. Replace the # with the code you are inquiring about. For example, if you have a question related to the sprinkler code, you would submit your question to nfp...@nfpa.org. Then Roland can 'officially' respond. Duane Johnson, PE Program Manager Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research Services National Institutes of Health 301-496-0487 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject
RE: Physical Science :)
Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While its a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. Its a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to search and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st century with this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference books to a test. Had one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote the load up the stairs. Just plain ridiculous. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Physical Science :) And don't forget to put index tabs on your references and take a dictionary with you. What are they going to do when al this stuff is on our iPads? At 06:39 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote: Same here, Brian. Of course I'm so old that when I took it with me it was only one volume, not two. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.nete-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.comwebsite On 11/2/2010 2:46 PM, Jamie.seidl wrote: The fire protection handbook. It's all I used. Jamie Sent from my iPhone On Nov 2, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Brian Harrisbr...@firstdefensefire.com wrote: Any recommendations for good reference material for the Physical Science portion of the Nicet test? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16210) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe
RE: Physical Science :)
Someone can steal your car no matter what steps you take. Does that mean you leave it unlocked with keys in it while parking on the streets of the city? For the certification process to be meaningful, the integrity of the system must be maintained within applicable requirements. And to test ability to do calcs, and apply fundamental formulas, you must prove that without software- just as experienced folks can size up a system at a site without a calculator by KNOWING how the variables work with each other. That doesn't come from inputting data and pushing a button, any more than inputting data and pushing a button proves an understanding of the fundamental equations. So, NO, you can't use all your tools. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Sure, it's a time consuming process to update and change, but really, we should be able to use the tools we use on a regular daily basis in the execution of our job. Anyone here still doing their drawings with ink on fabric, doing grid calcs on a pad with a pencil? Doubt it, you wouldn't be in business. Cheaters will always find a way to cheat no matter what methods or procedures are in place. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to search and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st century with this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference books to a test. Had one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote the load up the stairs. Just plain ridiculous. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Physical Science :) And don't forget to put index tabs on your references and take a dictionary with you. What are they going to do when al this stuff is on our iPads? At 06:39 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote: Same here, Brian. Of course I'm so old that when I took it with me it was only one volume, not two. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner
RE: Mechanical closet obstruction
Hole, not whole. You spell like an engineer- could be construed as a compliment:) See, Craig- spellcheck wouldn't be allowed in a pselling test, but I use it often :) Brad, Resign yourself that there will always be someone better- gives you a motivation you don't get from being number one. Ask Nancy PelosiAhh, some day we'll say Who? (or whom?) -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction I know I should not take myself so seriously. The fact that I am not the BEST sprink in the whole wide world does not bother me, but the thought that someone might be BETTER does! When I realized the screw-up, I told myself it was time to crawl back into the same whole I crawled out of Thanks for the reply ;) -Original Message- From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com [mailto:craig.pr...@ch2m.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:34 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction Glad you fixed that, I stayed awake all day yesterday thinking about those calculations.. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction This woke me up at 3:00 A.M.- it has error written all over it- I apologize to the Forum, and vow to double check my numbers AND my motives before I post anything. In terms of density vs fire power with little heads flowing a minimum: 5.4 gal/min x 3.781 liter/gal/60= .3403 Kg/sec x 4,180 Kj/Kg= 1,422 Kw/500 Kw/tree= 2.84 big dry Christmas trees, not 6, and now I have to perish the thought that one head in this closet seems inadequate somehow :) -Original Message- From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction Todd, maybe some words and numbers together would work, e.g., We put water on floors. An obstruction is something that prevents the water from reaching every square foot with a minimum density. 2 strips at 4x24 + 2 @ 4x16=320/144=2.2 SF. (dbl chk 4-1.8=2.2) Maybe the head is just a 4.2 so Q=12/2.2=5.4. This is a pretty decent density (36 X min). 12x3.781=45.372/60=.756 Kg/sec x 4,180 Kj/Kg/sec= 3,161 Kw/500 Kw/tree. (Pardon my French with the numbers). It is not every day we get to give the AHJ a density that could handle the fire power of 6 big dry Christmas trees at peak burning rate with little heads flowing a minimum. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Physical Science :)
Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Its not as easy as it sounds to change a 30-year old certification program as you might think. While it's a PIA to drag around all the reference materials, you must also appreciate the numerous concerns and integrity requirements and restrictions faced by any testing agency. They need to prevent theft of test questions, they need to make sure you are using a hand calculator rather than allowing the possibility you'll run a calc program on a PC or programmable calculator, that you know where to look things up based on familiarity with the references rather than rely on a word search, etc. NICET is moving along with PC-based testing at readily accessible testing centers nationwide, with open scheduling and instant results. It's a large undertaking with substantial volunteer contribution to make it work. To speed it along, participate and donate your time and energy to the industry that puts food on your table. NICET is also facing some competition in the market which may or may not produce other streamlining of the process, but it is what it is and the integrity of the process demands checking and validating the changes, and that all takes time. Think of the 4 years +/- some of us have been involved in the process, lugging ourselves to Alexandria, and -not to sound like the proverbial schoolteacher, but I remember borrowing references from the Atlanta fire marshal so I had to spend Fri afternoon going downtown, lugging the books to the car, getting familiar with them Fri night, and lugging them to the exam and on Monday AM back to City Hall. It builds character and memories, like then-mayor Andrew Young getting in the elevator with me Fri and observing what a fun weekend I must be stocking up for :) glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:56 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Physical Science :) Really, all of our codes are now in digital format. Much easier to search and cheaper for the company. NICET needs to come into the 21st century with this. It's just crazy lugging 30-40 lbs of reference books to a test. Had one test that was on 2nd floor and had to tote the load up the stairs. Just plain ridiculous. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Physical Science :) And don't forget to put index tabs on your references and take a dictionary with you. What are they going to do when al this stuff is on our iPads? At 06:39 PM 11/2/2010, you wrote: Same here, Brian. Of course I'm so old that when I took it with me it was only one volume, not two. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.nete-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.comwebsite On 11/2/2010 2:46 PM, Jamie.seidl wrote: The fire protection handbook. It's all I used. Jamie Sent from my iPhone On Nov 2, 2010, at 5:08 PM, Brian Harrisbr...@firstdefensefire.com wrote: Any recommendations for good reference material for the Physical Science portion of the Nicet test? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16210) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org
RE: Older Versions of NFPA
Stuff you learn when sitting in TC mtgs. Glad to share. Rained in Phoenix, but got to see Fellow Forumite Ron Fletcher from Aero- always a good thing. #25 guru Russ Leavitt visited too- should be worth a NICET point or two:) -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Older Versions of NFPA George- Thanks for the heads up Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Older Versions of NFPA NFPA is working on bringing archive versions of their codes online. In the meantime, you'll generally find the newest edition as well as one back, the one back edition intended to be the applicable one under the last I-Codes. The above is what I've heard and how I understood it when it was explained to me. It is NOT the official position of the NFPA blah blah. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 4:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Older Versions of NFPA Lamar- I appreciate the offer, I have a 2002 at home I'll bring in but it looks like allot of the older version aren't available anymore either. I also tried 80a (1996) with no luck. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 4:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Older Versions of NFPA Brian, I don't have an answer as to why but it looks like '07 '10 are the only ones in 13 available for review.I'll be glad to help if you have a specific question from '02.Let me know off line if you want. Lamar Vaughn,SET 678-429-3563 On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Brian Harris wrote: Why can't you view NFPA-13 2002 on the NFPA site anymore? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe
RE: Mechanical closet obstruction
Explain that 2007 is nothing but a big TIA for 2002, maybe that will switch on the light bulb. Ken from the other guys explained it that way and it seemed to have clarity- until the explanation fell on CMS's ears ni Blatimore and they explained the DOH doesn't (in fact, can't) enforce a TIA to the 1999 #13 for any health care facility in the US, no matter what the applicable building code references for applicable edition of #13. So you need to design to 1999 #13 AND the applicable edition, if there is mixed AHJs DOH and Local/State. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff Whitfield Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction Todd, I understand that you are using 2002 but I still believe a credible argument exists in presenting the info from 2007. The heads that are approved for this condition are no different than the heads that you have installed. Besides the section I already gave you (6.8.1.5.3.1) there is another that is applicable - the 'shadow' rule - 6.7.7.1.5.7 - it sounds like what you have meets this also. In addition, if your mech room does not have a door but merely an access panel the head is not even required unless it is a gas-fired unit. (6.9.6) All of these are from the 2007. I don't have the 2002 handy. Hope something helps with this situation! Cliff -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:05 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction Probably to justify his job. It is a 13R building under 2002. He didn't allow the exception because the closet ceiling is greater than 5 ft (Actual 8ft). Still negotiating. At 07:54 AM 11/2/2010, you wrote: Interesting how a design issue has now turned into an unreasonable AHJ issue with demands for citations and suggestions for sprinkler locations. Looks like big $ to reconfigure all these mechanical spaces to be able to add sprinklers per their listings and avoid obstructions. Why is the AHJ under the gun to justify and negotiate at this point? Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction So ask this AHJ where he would like you to place this non-code compliant sprinkler in this space.I still think your best bet is to place it in the corner,that way you cover the most floor space (1/2 of 2.222REALLY???)and get enough water bouncing around this spce till it finds the fire. :) And BTW,be sure to keep the head a minimum of 4 off the wall . oh yea,you only HAVE 4. Lamar Vaughn On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Todd Williams wrote: I agree. This was a what do I do? call from a client this afternoon. He was going to try to meet with the AHJ, but he was the one who had written it up as being obstructed. Someone at the Convention asked me where I find these people. Directly or indirectly, they find me. At 05:39 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote: It's kind of ridiculous that you have to even have a discussion about this. What's the AHJ want you to do? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 5:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction The 16x16 duct runs vertically off the top of the unit. there is no bottom of duct At 05:11 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote: Blow up the HVAC unit?, just ;) Locate the head with deflector at bottom of the 16 deep obstruction. Show the section where head can be located up to 22 for obstructed construction. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: November 1, 2010 3:01 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Mechanical closet obstruction Existing condition. Not going to happen At 04:43 PM 11/1/2010, you wrote: It may be hard for him to shove the HVAC unit against the wall. With the minimal
RE: Residential Room Design Method?
But does it work? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 11:34 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Residential Room Design Method? (BIG SNIP) It was reasonable and prudent so it became criteria. Roland ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Oversized Fire Pump
No, it doesn't if the 150% is not available from the supply. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 6:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump As part of the pump test yes it has to flow 150%. The biggest concern I'd have is the suction size. Everything else should work at 4. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump Does it have to flow 150%. The system demand is 347 gpm, less than the rated capacity. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: October 29, 2010 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump At 150% flow, are you going to be drawing the suction pressure down too low? At 05:25 PM 10/29/2010, you wrote: Rahe and Charles thinking along the same line. But so what to their point. Code doesn't ask for a supply calc. Don't do one. Code says system demand * time. You've done that, end of story. And in any event 'overdischarging' a system is a benefit. Higher density out of the first head. Much higher probability of suppression. Odds are the small pipe won't be a problem with just one size difference. As a FF we often trained pump operators with 1.5 and 2.5 hose feeding 1500 gpm pumps, we were deliberately taxing the inlet side so operators would see the results. 2.5 didn't always yield poor results as you'd think. We were using a hydrant supply. And the tank to pump line on these trucks is usually 3 with no problems. But it is technically a problem anywhere governed by 20 and there are stipulated pipe sizes that are not met. Chris Cahill -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Charles Thurston Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Oversized Fire Pump Hello , Will it over supply the open sprinklers, Use water faster from the tank and cause an increase in the amount of water required to be stored to meet the duration ? Friday, October 29, 2010, 3:59:24 PM, you wrote: ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Oversized Fire Pump
yes -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 6:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump In a previous post I quoted NFPA 20, 2007, section 14.2.7.2.2 which appears to permit the pump to be tested at maximum allowable discharge, povided the reduced flow exceeds the system demand. Won't that permit the pump to be tested at less than 150%? Thanks, Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: October 29, 2010 4:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump As part of the pump test yes it has to flow 150%. The biggest concern I'd have is the suction size. Everything else should work at 4. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump Does it have to flow 150%. The system demand is 347 gpm, less than the rated capacity. Tony -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: October 29, 2010 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Oversized Fire Pump At 150% flow, are you going to be drawing the suction pressure down too low? At 05:25 PM 10/29/2010, you wrote: Rahe and Charles thinking along the same line. But so what to their point. Code doesn't ask for a supply calc. Don't do one. Code says system demand * time. You've done that, end of story. And in any event 'overdischarging' a system is a benefit. Higher density out of the first head. Much higher probability of suppression. Odds are the small pipe won't be a problem with just one size difference. As a FF we often trained pump operators with 1.5 and 2.5 hose feeding 1500 gpm pumps, we were deliberately taxing the inlet side so operators would see the results. 2.5 didn't always yield poor results as you'd think. We were using a hydrant supply. And the tank to pump line on these trucks is usually 3 with no problems. But it is technically a problem anywhere governed by 20 and there are stipulated pipe sizes that are not met. Chris Cahill -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Charles Thurston Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Oversized Fire Pump Hello , Will it over supply the open sprinklers, Use water faster from the tank and cause an increase in the amount of water required to be stored to meet the duration ? Friday, October 29, 2010, 3:59:24 PM, you wrote: ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing
RE: Older Versions of NFPA
NFPA is working on bringing archive versions of their codes online. In the meantime, you'll generally find the newest edition as well as one back, the one back edition intended to be the applicable one under the last I-Codes. The above is what I've heard and how I understood it when it was explained to me. It is NOT the official position of the NFPA blah blah. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 4:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Older Versions of NFPA Lamar- I appreciate the offer, I have a 2002 at home I'll bring in but it looks like allot of the older version aren't available anymore either. I also tried 80a (1996) with no luck. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of lamarvau...@charter.net Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 4:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Older Versions of NFPA Brian, I don't have an answer as to why but it looks like '07 '10 are the only ones in 13 available for review.I'll be glad to help if you have a specific question from '02.Let me know off line if you want. Lamar Vaughn,SET 678-429-3563 On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Brian Harris wrote: Why can't you view NFPA-13 2002 on the NFPA site anymore? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16200) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
residential sprinklers on the TV
http://pahomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=159316 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins
Are you sure there is no insulation between the Z purlins to make them unobstructed construction? I'm skimming this email, but I don't recall seeing any without it unless its outside storage with a roof over it. And the idea of thinking you've got sprinklers in the pocket of 9.5 deep Z purlins runs counter to anything I'd contemplate in a pre-engineered metal building. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 2:34 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins And there it is.., R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ben Young Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 1:27 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins 8.6.4.1.2 only says you have to pick one of the following, not comply with all of them. (3) is only there as a worst case scenario, especially when you read the explanitory text in the handbook. You should only take this option if you cannot take any other, and must place sprinklers in every bay space, because you can't meet the obstruction rules in 8.6.5.1.2. If you have a handbook, exhibit 8.18 shows it perfectly. Benjamin Young On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Matthew J. Willis m...@norredfire.comwrote: I could agree. Everyone likes a good ceiling jet. But, there is no mention of ceiling jet, only 1-12 when equally spaced in bays. I will offer a simple question then. Why is this statement (3) in there if 1-6 below is the only concern? The other references to bay confirm this. Such as rotating branch lines but sprinklers must be installed in bays Spacing at 12.5 for EH in 25' Bays, Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 1:07 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins And I think he should be fine as long as he is not more than 6 below the bottom of the purlins, but then, I am a CEILING JET FREAK. Early this year Roland straightened out a concerned poster by mentioning the MOMENTUM of the ceiling jet- I thought 'ya, what Roland said', then I fire modeled some set-ups, and thought 'YA, WHAT ROLAND SAID'! -Original Message- From: Ralphy Henderson [mailto:ralphbuccan...@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 12:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins I agree... that would mean the 12 from deck would come into effect. I think 9.2.4.2 (in the 07 ed) helps clarify what is meant by bay also. As far as Mike's original post goes, with 9 1/2 z-purlins, he should be fine as long as he's not more than 2 1/2 below the bottom of the purlins. --- On Tue, 10/26/10, Matthew J. Willis m...@norredfire.com wrote: From: Matthew J. Willis m...@norredfire.com Subject: RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 5:20 PM Good question. It is not defined in Chapter 3; however, there are several examples of bay throughout the standard. In particular note the figures showing typical calc areas. Bay as I understand it, is the area between the Frames that the purlin rest on. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins It is something to think about I guess. But since the purlins are the structural members impeding the heat flow, where does BAY come in? -Original Message- From: Matthew J. Willis [mailto:m...@norredfire.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 8:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Maximum Deflector
RE: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins
If it has insulation draped from top to top of the Z purlins, you can measure from the underside of the NOMINAL DEPTH OF INSULATION and ignore where it goes back up to the top of the Z. Likely there's 8 or 10' insulation and treated like a smooth ceiling from which to measure from below its NOMINAL location. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hairfield Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 2:44 PM To: AFSA SprinklerFORUM Subject: Maximum Deflector Distance below Z Purlins OK Metal building with 9 1/2 Z-Purlins, what is maximum distance that the deflector can be below the bottom of the Purlin. Mike ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Re-Using Sprinklers
I think a TC member summed it up once- I do it because the market in which I compete dictates I must do it. I know I shouldn't. Doesn't improve installations by us hoping we can use new but never getting a job competing against those that re-use. Or words to that effect, was a couple years ago and I'm 50. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 5:10 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Re-Using Sprinklers A quicker option may be to seek an informal opinion from afsa or nfsa. On 10/25/2010 4:49 PM, Thom wrote: My obvious reply would be where does it say that's OK? But rather I would say if you believe that? Submit it to 13 committee and see if they agree. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 2:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Re-Using Sprinklers Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Forwarded message - From: cherokeefire...@aol.comcherokeefire...@aol.com Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 4:08 pm Subject: Re: Re-Using Sprinklers To: Brian Harrisbr...@firstdefensefire.com I differ with the opinion below. If we expand on that line of thought, we would have to change sprinklers if a portion of the fire sprinkler system in a building was shut down, ie replacement of main piping. I think if the sprinkler is not removed from the connection, there is no need to change it. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Brian Harrisbr...@firstdefensefire.com Date: Mon, Oct 25, 2010 3:58 pm Subject: Re-Using Sprinklers To:sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Thom- Thanks for the input. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 3:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Re-Using Sprinklers NFPA13,1999 3-2 Sprinklers. 3-2.1 Only new sprinklers shall be installed. NFPA 13,2002 6.2 Sprinklers. 6.2.1 General. Only new sprinklers shall be installed. NFPA 13, 2007 6.2 Sprinklers. 6.2.1 General. Only new sprinklers shall be installed. There is no written justification to Re-install any sprinklers in an existing system. As previously stated this doesn't stop that from happening, when it can be done without removing the head from the fitting. (This just sort of sidesteps the issue of re-installation by saying the head was never removed. But the pipe system or fitting the head was connected to was removed and re-installed.) Perhaps you could write a clarification for the next code cycle, and let the committee clarify the position of 13 on this issue. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 12:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Re-Using Sprinklers Ron- Was there ever anything in writing that allowed that? Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 2:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Re-Using Sprinklers In the older, robust heads, those that we used to fill a bucket up with and didn't worry so much about, this was common practice, but nowadays I'd question the wisdom od doing so. Too much of a chance for the to toss a bunch of headed drops into a bucket and have those heads banging around. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Brian Harris br...@firstdefensefire.com wrote: Reed- Pretty much the same thing I came up with, maybe what I was taught was old school ... Thanks anyway. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reed Roisum Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 12:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Re-Using Sprinklers All I could find was 6.1.2.2 and 6.2.1 in 07 ed. Nothing about what you are referring to. Reed A. Roisum, CET Ulteig Engineers, Inc. 3350 38th Avenue S. Fargo, ND 58104 www.ulteig.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 10:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re-Using Sprinklers I was taught that you could re-use a sprinkler as long as it wasn't removed from the reducing
RE: A matter of conscience
I, too salute that. Our new estimator asked us to run some dwgs up to him while he awaited test results at the hospital for what turned out to be gallstones. We did. It seems there are a lot of us in this business that are sickeningly dedicated. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: A matter of conscience Thomas, Best Wishes this morning, but I must say you sir are truly boots on the ground taking the time to address a sprinkler issue while awaiting a procedure in the cardiac unit. Again Best Wishes to a full recovery. Humbly John Drucker Jr CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: Re: A matter of conscience Sorry for the delayed response. I am currently in the cardiac unit awaiting a heart cath in the morning. I remember the retaining nuts being provided with the Sammy screws and never thought of them as being optional. (no sarcasm intended) However, when the boss says Just do it I did as I was told. On the other hand, I remember reading here that 1 1/2 split-ring hangers are only rated at 160#. Far short of NFPA13 requirements. Since reading that, I have only used them as stand-off rings for attaching pipe to walls and floors. With this heavy galvanized dry system hanging from all these weak links, do I really have nothing to fear when that valve trips? If one hanger fails, then the next closest ones fail, etc I think I just want something to worry about other than my health. Thomas Watt ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all copies. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Calcium Chloride antifreeze protection
Believe me, I think outside the box more often than my design staff is comfortable with. A year ago we had a project that could only be done within the code by using a PLD diesel. PLDs for Tier 3 engines weren't approved yet. BUT- they were in final testing. So we ordered a Tier 3 variable speed engine with our pump and now that the ECM version of the PLD is available, field retrofit it yesterday. FM Approvals rep, local FM rep, Joslyn clark factory rep, local controller rep, Clarke/Deere factory guy with software upgrade and new engine control panel, Aurora pump local reps, our guy and the customer al in attendance. Would have had UL there, too, but its an FM account and they didn't believe it was necessary after I surveyed some friends on the insurance side and they said if it was accepted by FM, didn't need both. No one else has ever retrofit a PLD like this. Nice thing (except for the $) was that since they make a small selection of variable speed Tier 3 engines, it ran 2104 rpm at churn, 2101 rpm at 150% (4500 GPM!) because its a 572 HP pump, over 100 HP more than we needed and the largest Clarke has. Variable pitch blades in the turbo to maintain emissions, not your father's Oldsmobile. So there are times I stick with tried and true; but the largest project we've completed was performance-based design outside #13 based on Section 1.5 Equivalency. Balance when old stuff is best, not afraid to try something new if it makes sense. Glc A little mom and pop sprinkler company in Snyder County, PA. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcium Chloride antifreeze protection Matt- it never was 'up for consideration' as a possible resolution- just another one of my hair-brained hypotheticals- (my latest for solving the AF problem was inspired by G as he ripped me to shreds- I call it Mexican Jumping Water- moving water is harder to freeze). I have no problem with doing things the way they have always been done, but being level 4, I feel bad when someone asks me why I am doing something that way, the only reason I can give them is Because that is how it is has always been done. This industry needs, young, original thinkers, and old, stodgy thinkers both. -Original Message- From: Ron Greenman [mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Calcium Chloride antifreeze protection Matt, It corrodes steel, it leaks, it's not listed for the use, it's not one of the few acceptable chemicals allowed in 13 . You make your call from info like that. Ethylene glycol lowers the freezing point of water but is poison. Sugar does also but it's a long strand carbon molecule that will burn.. Gasoline freezes at a much lower temperature than water but is probably not a good solution to the problem. Like our discussion on centrifugal pumps and raising water with Rube Goldberg solutions: what George said--you can but that doesn't necessarily mean you should. On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 7:14 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: I know we have gone over this in previous emails, but I could not find one that ever mentioned a resolution. Other than the corrosion/ seepage concerns for steel piping, was there any finding on whether or not it was ok to use CaCl as an anti-freeze additive? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
RE: Calcium Chloride antifreeze protection
Like our friend's brilliant son's formula for solving calcs without trial and error. Asked why we use trial and error instead of just solving it, and worked on the formula until he got it right. A rocket scientist in our business couldn't find fault with it. A lot of midnight oil but Cecil will someday be teaching a class on hydraulic calcs and teach students a formula named after his son who developed it. Skyman is a chip off the old Cecil. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: Calcium Chloride antifreeze protection So what your saying is when you run into something in the code or standard that has been there a while, you question if this is the only way to do it? That's always a good start, but for things to change you also have to be willing to follow thru and do the research, testing and get the Proof that your alternative will perform as well as or better than the existing approved practice, and then commit to that all important step---Submit it for review (Proposal to NFPA) We all have what we consider Good ideas from time to time, but how many of us follow thru? Follow thru on finding a new safe antifreeze, and then name it after yourself, or your dog or a beloved member of this forum. But you can't even consider what to name it until you've paid the due's. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:12 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Calcium Chloride antifreeze protection Matt- it never was 'up for consideration' as a possible resolution- just another one of my hair-brained hypotheticals- (my latest for solving the AF problem was inspired by G as he ripped me to shreds- I call it Mexican Jumping Water- moving water is harder to freeze). I have no problem with doing things the way they have always been done, but being level 4, I feel bad when someone asks me why I am doing something that way, the only reason I can give them is Because that is how it is has always been done. This industry needs, young, original thinkers, and old, stodgy thinkers both. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks
Is there some compelling reason you'd like to stray from NFPA 20 ? I don't know the details of what suction flange or manway might be used to gain suction, but it doesn't sound that tough to figure out a way to do it in compliance with the code, without vacuum pumps? Somehow I've made it thru 36 years without having to resort to this arrangement- is there a UL Listing on that vacuum pump, or was it simply accepted by the AHJ on faith it would work? I realize you might be able to arrange something that would function- but seriously, water supplies should be kept simple and reliability. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:26 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; 'Coastal' Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Thanks, this is great! Why not post it to the Forum? I think it would help Ralph B- the original poster. If you do not want to, can I? -Original Message- From: Coastal [mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:43 PM To: Brad Subject: Re: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Hello Brad, We deal with 1 property that the sole source of water supply is the in ground swimming pool. There is a horizontal split case fire pump in the riser room along with all the other required equipment. One of the items required is a vacuum pump that is piped into the typical vent of the automatic air release on the top of the pump casing. The vacuum pump is controlled by a vacuum switch on this line. If I remember right from last time I had any dealings with this location is the vacuum switch is set to keep -25 inches of vacuum on the line. As long as the air release is open the vacuum pump runs sucking the water from the pool through the underground and up about 12 feet into the pump casing. When the air release closes then it draws vacuum on the piping and the vacuum pump shuts off. The only problem I know of with this setup at this location in the past 8 years or so is the K Type flexible coupling between the motor and pump wore out (the installation has been there about 2 0 years). We also deal with a location where the horizontal pump draws from an in ground pond. This one has the footer valve at the intake screen, 100 gallon tank mounted in the ceiling of the pump house to prime the suction line. There is a small household type well pump to refill the 100 gallon tank. I much prefer the location with the vacuum pump to work on. Sunday, October 10, 2010, 3:30:28 PM, you wrote: George, if you shape 15 pounds of water into a 1 square 'bar' it would be 34' tall. The same thing with air will be 5 miles tall. These bars of air are easy to forget about bcoz they are invisible and have been with us all our lives. A 10' square swimming pool has 14,400 of them sitting on top! Say the pool is 7' deep- stand a piece of 6x40' Sch 10 up in it with 6' submerged. Now, 32 of these bars are inside the pipe, and the rest outside. FORCE IS IN THE DIRECTION OF DECREASING POTENTIAL. As you lower the potential at the top of the pipe by removing the bars of air there, the direction of the force is up. This is the way a straw works. Once all 32 of the bars of air have been removed, the water will be at the top of the pipe. Now put a pump impeller at the top of the pipe, take it out of the pool, and turn it horizontal. From Bernoulli's Principle, if the velocity at the discharge is higher than at the suction, then the pressure (potential) will be lower there, and the direction of the force (flow) will be from suction to discharge. I have no experience with being the President of a company- so would think twice before refuting something you said you thought you knew. The ONLY problem I am still having with my own scenario is- would an auto air release at the top of the rise out of the tank work? I KNOW a vacuum pump there would work. -Original Message- From: George Church [mailto:for...@ptd.net] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks ??? Unless the tank ws installed upside down, you'd don't have positive suction head above the waterline. I don't have an equation to support it, but its easy to field test. Ralphy- go to CSI's website and look at typical drawings of the vertical turbine pumps, either into a belly if there is one, or- well, punt. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Psia in ft of head is 14.7/.433--- if not a vert turbine, you will need a big, slow pump. A horizontal pump cannot
RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks
Ralphy- If the tank doesn't have a belly to drop a vertical turbine in it, run off the suction nozzle to a wet well and drop the vert turbine in that. Meets code, works, very simple and reliable. Run the wet well to where your pump house goes or the building if that's where you're putting the pump. Make sure the UG is sized to allow the necessary flow over whatever distance/vertical drop you have. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; 'Charles Thurston' Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Seems to me that NFPA 20 does say not to do this! NFPA 20, 2007, 7.3.5.2.2 This valve shall also admit air to the column to dissipate the vacuum upon stopping of the pump. Your systems sucks, but doesn't meet code, Have a happy day in court! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Charles Thurston Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:37 AM To: George Church Subject: Re: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Hello George, I was just commenting on 2 of the systems I have seen out here. Seems to me the cost of trying to do something like these would be more than the cost of doing it in a fully code compliant manner, Rather than skirting the edges. Monday, October 11, 2010, 10:07:06 AM, you wrote: Is there some compelling reason you'd like to stray from NFPA 20 ? I don't know the details of what suction flange or manway might be used to gain suction, but it doesn't sound that tough to figure out a way to do it in compliance with the code, without vacuum pumps? Somehow I've made it thru 36 years without having to resort to this arrangement- is there a UL Listing on that vacuum pump, or was it simply accepted by the AHJ on faith it would work? I realize you might be able to arrange something that would function- but seriously, water supplies should be kept simple and reliability. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. glc ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks
Yes, it will take a vertical turbine pump. See manufacturer's cut sheets (Xerxes, CSI, Floway), brochures, and NFPA 20 for examples. Hmm. It IS vertical turbine pumps we're talking about. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ralphy Henderson Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Hello, I have a GC that installed a poly-tank underground in anticipation of a future sprinkler system and pump. The pump will be installed above ground at a higher elevation than the tanks. Will this require a vertical turbine pump to be able to draw from an underground tank? I've never seen this done...Any advice on this? Thanks, Ralph B. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Check valve for antifreeze system
I like the Dunkin Donut Holes..seriously, just drill a hole in the clapper, nothing more complex tan that. Assuming you don't have a BFP stopping the expansion in the system??? Otherwise you'd need an expansion tank, not a hole. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Check valve for antifreeze system The check valve in an antifreeze loop is to have a 1/32 hole in the clapper per NFPA 13-2007 7.6.3. We need an 1¼ for replacement, is there somewhere that these are available or do you normally drill a hole in the clapper? If you drill a hole is there a preferred style/brand for this? Thank you, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Check valve for antifreeze system
I've never heard of anyone selling these pre-drilled. You're doing exactly what the red book says to do. There are risks associated with using AF solutions in a nursing home, as I'm sure you're aware- the listing on a check in an AF loop isn't one I'd lose any sleep over. But I'd be darn sure you can use the AF solutions that DIDN'T go BOOM in the recently released testing. That way you aren't installing a time bomb that would give the plaintiffs the keys to your shop, and with the recent brouhaha on AF, could make you negligent. If it is a low pressure system, that would help you have a foot on the ground upon which to further protect yourself, I believe higher pressure is smaller droplets is more surface area is more chance for boom. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Check valve for antifreeze system Correct, no BFP on this one. It is a state inspected nursing home, so if I can buy one I will. That way if it is listed with the hole in it I can supply the cut sheet and they cant come back and say we altered it and the listing went away. Thanks all. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com _ From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Check valve for antifreeze system I like the Dunkin Donut Holes..seriously, just drill a hole in the clapper, nothing more complex tan that. Assuming you don't have a BFP stopping the expansion in the system??? Otherwise you'd need an expansion tank, not a hole. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Check valve for antifreeze system The check valve in an antifreeze loop is to have a 1/32 hole in the clapper per NFPA 13-2007 7.6.3. We need an 1¼ for replacement, is there somewhere that these are available or do you normally drill a hole in the clapper? If you drill a hole is there a preferred style/brand for this? Thank you, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1136 / Virus Database: 422/3190 - Release Date: 10/11/10 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Check valve for antifreeze system
http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=2064itemID=48038 http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/Research/RFAntifreezeSprinklers.pdf http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/Research/RFAntifreezeSprinklerSystemPh 2.pdf -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Check valve for antifreeze system United Brass has one that Pete just sent the link to me on. This is for repair, it is supplying two sprinklers on a front porch and has been using Propylene Glycol. Do you have a link/source to the solutions that DIDNT go BOOM in the recently released testing? Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com _ From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Check valve for antifreeze system I've never heard of anyone selling these pre-drilled. You're doing exactly what the red book says to do. There are risks associated with using AF solutions in a nursing home, as I'm sure you're aware- the listing on a check in an AF loop isn't one I'd lose any sleep over. But I'd be darn sure you can use the AF solutions that DIDN'T go BOOM in the recently released testing. That way you aren't installing a time bomb that would give the plaintiffs the keys to your shop, and with the recent brouhaha on AF, could make you negligent. If it is a low pressure system, that would help you have a foot on the ground upon which to further protect yourself, I believe higher pressure is smaller droplets is more surface area is more chance for boom. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Check valve for antifreeze system Correct, no BFP on this one. It is a state inspected nursing home, so if I can buy one I will. That way if it is listed with the hole in it I can supply the cut sheet and they cant come back and say we altered it and the listing went away. Thanks all. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com _ From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Check valve for antifreeze system I like the Dunkin Donut Holes..seriously, just drill a hole in the clapper, nothing more complex tan that. Assuming you don't have a BFP stopping the expansion in the system??? Otherwise you'd need an expansion tank, not a hole. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Check valve for antifreeze system The check valve in an antifreeze loop is to have a 1/32 hole in the clapper per NFPA 13-2007 7.6.3. We need an 1¼ for replacement, is there somewhere that these are available or do you normally drill a hole in the clapper? If you drill a hole is there a preferred style/brand for this? Thank you, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1136 / Virus Database: 422/3190 - Release Date: 10/11/10 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum
RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks
??? Unless the tank ws installed upside down, you'd don't have positive suction head above the waterline. I don't have an equation to support it, but its easy to field test. Ralphy- go to CSI's website and look at typical drawings of the vertical turbine pumps, either into a belly if there is one, or- well, punt. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 1:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Psia in ft of head is 14.7/.433--- if not a vert turbine, you will need a big, slow pump. A horizontal pump cannot suck water up, but positive suction head will be 34' above the tank water level. -Original Message- From: Ralphy Henderson [mailto:ralphbuccan...@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 12:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Type of pump for UG storage tanks Hello, I have a GC that installed a poly-tank underground in anticipation of a future sprinkler system and pump. The pump will be installed above ground at a higher elevation than the tanks. Will this require a vertical turbine pump to be able to draw from an underground tank? I've never seen this done...Any advice on this? Thanks, Ralph B. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks
The reason you don't see a detail for an up over and down suction pipe is because- like Chris points out- it doesn't work. If we had the atmospheric pressure working for us, Brad, wouldn't water jump out of lakes and ponds and 5 gallon buckets? Yes, you need one of those pregnant bellies for the vertical turbine to drop into OR you lose a bunch of the volume. I'm also hoping you meant FRP when you said Poly, check 22, I don't think poly is in there as an acceptable material. The vertical turbine can drop into the top of the tank, or you can run from the discharge nozzle to a wet well and place that in a pump house, pump room in the building, etc.- the details are also on CSI site for either way. I'd be curious if the GC dropping a poly tank in the ground had any inkling of any of the requirements in NFPA 22 for a tank? High/Low water alarms, vortex plate if applicable, vent, tiedowns/deadmen, manways, just to start reiterating what's in the standard. Some of these are a little tough to retrofit. On this forum we throw darts at PEs practicing outside their area of expertise. Are we thinking its ok to design a water supply including a tank probably not designed to 22 and needing changes, along with a vertical turbine fire pump which yesterday we didn’t know what it was, but with a couple questions to the Forum- hey, we're ready to knock this out over the weekend? What would be the difference between the PE practicing outside his area of competence and layout technician doing the same? a) a license at risk b) the PE should know better (hence the hint above to seek competent advice on the details) C) I'll leave the rest for y'all to play with over the weekend. Could go to DD, DE, DF... I don't want to leave anyone hanging as to my email vrs sarcasm you cannot read. If you don't know what you are doing, seek help. I don't believe the intent of this Forum is to provide the requisite level of knowledge and experience needed to design a water supply starting from -well, maybe not scratch, but if you can't tell a vertical turbine from a VIP from a horizontal split case from pictures, and think water jumps 34' in the air into the suction side of a pump and will be in accordance with #20, make sure your liability insurance carrier never reads this forum. Easy parallel to the AHJ that didn't understand a combined pump curve and John's comment You can lead a horse to water, but you can't give it 20 years' experience in a couple of emails. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mak Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 6:07 PM To: sprinklerforum Subject: Re: Type of pump for UG storage tanks The only rules I've ever seen for a suction lift scenario, (except via vertical turbine pumps) is an LPC technical bulletin out of the UK. Foot valves, priming tanks, priming tank low water level alarms, etc, a recipe for disaster if not properly installed and well maintained. If you have a buried tank, and no suction pit for any type of pump, what will the usable volume of the tank be? In my career, I designed/installed one pump with a priming tank/foot valve arrangement. That was one too many. I have fixed a few installed by others. Be careful. Regards Chris Mak Aon Sprinkler Certification Via Blackberry Cell +64-274-344-058 - Original Message - From: Ron Greenman [rongreen...@gmail.com] Sent: 08/10/2010 02:47 PM MST To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: Re: Type of pump for UG storage tanks No syphon thing when you're losing the prime through the leaky packing. On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Brad bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: But couldn't you almost empty a 5 gallon bucket with a garden hose that went up say 15 ft and then down say 12 ft if the whole thing was primed and you had air release at the high point? Wouldn't the slightest forward movement at the free end start a siphon thing? -Original Message- From: Matt Grise [mailto:m...@afpsprink.com] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:06 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'; 'bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com' Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage tanks I don't think you get to count the 14.7 psi of the atmosphere in your net positive suction head calculations. When you discharge back into the atmosphere, you lose that pressure again. That would only count as positive pressure if you discharged into a vacuum. (0 psia) Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:03 PM To: 'George Church'; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Type of pump for UG storage
RE: HydraCalc
So you've got more demanding (pressure-wise) stuff elsewhere and you've got 100% overdischarge. Or a Garbage In, Garbage Out. Check to see if this is the most demanding head- quick stink test for GIGO. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: HydraCalc The calc's say that's the Actual Flow Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: HydraCalc Is that the actual discharge, or the minimum set to the head. If it is the actual, you are just hitting the head with just over 40 psi. If not, you may have a typo some where getting you 260 sq ft. On 10/6/2010 12:09 PM, Brian Harris wrote: Quick Hydracalc question: Any idea why I'm getting 52 gpm required for an 8k head? (130 sq.ft. @ .20) Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16020) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16020) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16020) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: HydraCalc
Or an elevation difference. Consider getting LogMeIn- makes remote troubleshooting way easier for those at the remote end. When I travel I work thru my laptop on my desktop so I have it in a secure location with redundant hard drives and off-site storage- if the laptop is stolen, crashes, or if you open it at OHare and the screen is broken, you haven't lost your work. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: HydraCalc Do you have something set for min. end head pressure of 20 psi? Is this calc coming directly from the layout or did you manually input the pies and nodes? If it came from the layout do a 3D iso view and look for some duplication of piping or heads on top of each other or some odd connection error. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: HydraCalc DENSITY = 0.2000AREA = 130 K = 8.000Pt = 10.563 NodeDia Length KFactQa. Pf. Pe. Pt. Vel. TYP1.080 9.5 T 16.000 Kf 52.00 10.090.00 10.56 18.21 D1K = 11.441 Qt = 52.00Pt = 20.66 DENSITY = 0.2000AREA = 130 K = 8.000Pt = 10.563 NodeDia Length KFactQa. Pf. Pe. Pt. Vel. TYP1.080 1T 16.000 Kf 52.00 4.47 0.00 10.56 18.21 D2K = 13.411 Qt = 52.00Pt = 15.04 Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: HydraCalc So you've got more demanding (pressure-wise) stuff elsewhere and you've got 100% overdischarge. Or a Garbage In, Garbage Out. Check to see if this is the most demanding head- quick stink test for GIGO. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: HydraCalc The calc's say that's the Actual Flow Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: HydraCalc Is that the actual discharge, or the minimum set to the head. If it is the actual, you are just hitting the head with just over 40 psi. If not, you may have a typo some where getting you 260 sq ft. On 10/6/2010 12:09 PM, Brian Harris wrote: Quick Hydracalc question: Any idea why I'm getting 52 gpm required for an 8k head? (130 sq.ft. @ .20) Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16020) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned
RE: ESFR Hose Allowance
Suppression vrs control -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 5:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: ESFR Hose Allowance Any thoughts as to why ESFR heads seem to be the only one that doesn't say combined inside and outside hose allowance? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16020) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Owner refusal
I'd say the letter is the first step- to the pastor or building committee chair, someone OTHER THAN the supt refusing the work. Note that they'll be ripping open the work to install sprinklers inside it if relevant to the construction type and materials. Note it is a code requirement and required for life safety as well as property protection. Prolly good to bring up the N word, N E G L I G E N C E if anyone is ever hurt, since they've been advised they are ignoring the code. Possibly better to add this verbally when telling them about the letter, either before you send (possibly negating the reason for it if they cave) or as a follow up to confirm it was received, understood, and then mention the downside- added cost and/or Negligence. You'll prolly sound badge-heavy if you put Negligence in the letter, although it depends on your perception of the client. Noting that no A Certificate could be turned over would be sufficient hammer- hopefully. Your call to the AHJ- fine line to walk. If you know em, have a rapport with em, make the call. If you don't know em from Adam, he may be best friends with the supt and you've shot yourself in the foot. We got a call from a strip center owner who we've worked for off and on over the years. Seems the pump and tank were abandoned 10 years ago just before he bought the place, and a new waterline was run into the back of the building. However, no BFPs were installed, WFS were built but not wired, and the service was never switched over. Yes, 100,000 SF of dumpy strip center was left unprotected for a decade. Yes, in the state that was first with the IRC mandate, evidently no one in Harrisburg has seen NFPA 25. Anyway, it came to light when a competitor went in to move heads for a new tenant, and the system was off. In addition to calling the Owner, he called the BCO (AHJ) who gave the Owner 48 hrs to cease operating the center. A little tough with a dozen stores in operation! We were given the job, he certainly wasn't going to call the guy that turned him in hoping since he was there and the AHJ gave em a short time period to start repairs, he'd get the job. Doesn't get that cold up here. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Eric Tysinger Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:22 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Owner refusal A quick little heads up call to the AHJ/Inspector before the inspection does wonders for situations like that. Thanks, Eric Tysinger CET NICET III - 108988 Designer Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers, Inc. 4370 Motorsport Drive Concord, NC 28027 p: (704)782-3032 x1751 f: (704)795-6838 C: (239)633-9703 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - FPDC Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 10:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Owner refusal I just coming from a church project where they added an 8 x 16 wooden canopy at the main entry. The project super (and also church member) has adamantly refused to install sprinklers even though they are required. I have told him that they are needed by Code, buy he remains defiant. I assume that the AHJ would pick up on it during final inspection, but can't count on it. My plan is to write a letter to the church (my client) stating that protection is required by Code and is my best advice, but if they choose not to, I am not responsible for the consequences. How have others handled similar situations? The inspection for CO is schedules for Friday. Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: PA LI - UCC Sprinkler Design Data Sheet
The UCC is the PA Uniform Construction Code, the ICC as adopted by PA. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: PA LI - UCC Sprinkler Design Data Sheet Ken: Doesn't PA switch over to ICC on Oct 1, 2010? UCC plan review would no longer apply. Pa members of the forum: The UCC plan review checklist requires a sprinkler design data sheet to be included on the first plan of the sprinkler drawings. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
AFSA
I'd like to thank Steve and the gang for again presenting us with a memorable experience that combined fun with a ton of educational offerings. Enjoyed seeing many Forumites at Steve's reception for us, and witnessing a full scale fire test at FM Global was a bucket list item for this sprinkler geek. I'd also like to thank the numerous presenters who took the time to prepare great seminars, I learned a lot and I know there is a lot of prep time necessary to do it right- and they did. Look forward to seeing all next year in Texas! George Church President Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Oil Filled Air Compressors in Dry Systems
Have run into the same thing when we run the compressed air lines for modular home plants- You'll have service calls (which might be a good thing in 2013) if you use the standard gaskets. What Mike said, echoed by a contractor that looked into it. I don't recall the other gaskets being a large cost dif (this was 5+ years ago), more just the short time to order em in. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cabralm...@rocketmail.com Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 11:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Oil Filled Air Compressors in Dry Systems The standard gasket is EPDM which does not play well with oil. If you have a lot of evidence of oil in the system use Buna gasket. Check any of the gasket selection guides. Sent on the SprintR Now Network from my BlackBerryR -Original Message- From: Ryan Peterson ry...@waynefire.com Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 11:23:37 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.orgsprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Oil Filled Air Compressors in Dry Systems I'm interested in the groups experiences and comments about using oil filled compressors in dry systems. The reason I broach the subject is that many coupling manufacturers include in their datasheet: Approved by Factory Mutual Research for wet and dry (oil free air) sprinkler services up to the rated working pressure. Without an air/oil separator installed in the air supply line some of the air compressor oil is going to make it in the system. Oil filled compressors are cheaper (in some cases) than oil less; and cheaper is good practice these days as long as the rules are followed. Thanks, Ryan Peterson Design Manager Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Office 407-877-5593 Cell 904-838-7020 Fax 407-656-8036 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48
I believe I could root around and POINT TO WHERE OTHERS WROTE 70% open, and I believe it was those rocket scientists at FM Global. The caps are for emphasis that I didn't make a judgment call, I know where to find something defensible. PLEASE realize that this was a compliment to FM, no sarcasm at all. Last week's tour did nothing but reinforce the already positive impression I have of FM Global. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jim.robe...@fluor.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 2:59 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 I can't shed any light on the banner situations, but I am interested to know what forumites normally consider for minimum gap between pipes on a pipe rack exceeding 48 before they have to be considered a solid obstruction. Thanks, James L (Jim) Roberts, PE/SET | FLUOR | Principal Fire Protection Engineer – Central Engineering | jim.robe...@fluor.com | IODC 20.5149 | O +1.864.281.5149 | www.fluor.com From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: 10/04/2010 02:25 PM Subject:RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 Sent by:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org What kind of occupancy? If these banners could come loose and fall would it cause an egress issue for occupants trying to exit the area in an emergency? Essentially it sounds like these banners are creating a sub-level ceiling below the sprinklers. I believe in one of the previous discussions it was mentioned about these types of items being suspended with some type of fusible link so that they could drop out of the way of the sprinkler discharge in a fire event. Other issue is if they would not drop out of the way would they hold water from a sprinkler to the point where the banner could either dump a large amount of water on person below or fill to the point it could create an issue with the structure's ability to support the weight? What will 18 below the heads accomplish? Suggestion: Put the banners on the wall. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [ mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 12:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 I recall this has been discussed, but not recently. Is there guidance anywhere as to how much gap needs to be between obstructions (each individual obstruction being no more than 48 wide) so that sprinklers are not needed beneath them? More specifically, I have a project where the architect would like to install banners beneath the ceiling and does not want sprinklers beneath the banners. I'm fairly confident he's willing to lower the banners so they're at least 18 below the sprink deflectors. He's also willing to make them narrower (48 max wide). But he would like to place them as close together as possible (without needing sprinks below them). Anybody aware of any guidelines for this? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company.
RE: Pump Calc's
Forget combined pump curve you need elementary conceptual aha! experience. Try this: Look, Skippy, we got 50 PSI coming into the building. Then it goes into the pump which boosts it 100 PSI and at the discharge of the pump we have 150 PSI. Same thing as happens in a fire truck when you hook up ot the hydrant. You want 150 PSI on the other side of the apparatus, you gotta boost 50 PSI by 100 PSI. Maybe that parallel will jump-start the light bulb over his head. If he doesn't understand the hydrant-pumper analogy, ask if you can go over and meet with him at a fire station, grab an operator and stand by the truck and- with the operator helping show you're not trying to buffalo him, again point at 50 PSI goes in here, 150 comes out here, so there must be ADDITION of the city supply and the pump boost to get the CORRECT and larger water supply. At least when his operator goes DUH! he may just pretend the light bulb went on and approve your submittal. If he doesn't get it, send him a link to water supply school at the Academy or one of the Associations. You're only responsible for submitting in accordance with applicable codes and standards, not for educating someone who doesn't have the requisite knowledge/skill level to review the submittal. Otherwise we'd- well, never mind. We'd be where we are today, wouldn't we? Sure got spoiled back in the day when FM or IRI (or FIA) engineer told ya what to do, we did it, and the fire dept came by to see where the FDC and shutoff were. And there was, for the most part, money and sufficient skilled people in the industry. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of ParsleyConsulting Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 4:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pump Calc's Brian, Call him up and ask him the following question: I have submitted calculations to show that a flow of X gpm delivered to the the suction flange of the pump by the supply will be present at Y psi. The pump will boost this pressure by Z psi at that flow, per the manufacturer's certified pump curve, and deliver X gpm at Y+Z psi at the discharge flange. There is no loss of pressure, or flow through the pump. Then see what he says. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website On 10/4/2010 12:45 PM, Brian Harris wrote: I have a FM that is rejecting our plans because of the following The hydraulic calculations submitted seem to combine the pump curve and the flow test. This error falsely indicates greater water supply availability. I tried explaining what a combined pump curve was but I just cannot get through to him, any help would be greatly appreciated. Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.16000) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48
I'd tell him he needs to hire an EOR with qualifications (or lotsa EO) and ask him, it is not defined in NFPA 13 and needs to be addressed by a registered design professional; and obviously as an architect, it is outside his area of expertise. And yours. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 4:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 It's an assembly occupancy and the banners are proposed to be over one of the main entrances. They're shown to be approx 28' long and would be anchored at about 26' AFF at one end and 21' AFF at the other end. So dropping the entire banner or one end of the banner via a fusible link to the floor probably isn't a good option. If the banners were 48 or less in width, 18 clear space beneath the deflectors were maintained, and they weren't arraigned side-by-side with other banners, I would be allowed to ignore them (just like HVAC ducts). I anticipate the architect will redesign so each banner is 48 wide and the 18 is maintained. His next question will be What's the minimum gap I must have between my 48 wide banners? 1 foot? 2' feet? 4' feet? I'm not aware of any guidance in NFPA 13 or elsewhere, but I'm hoping I'm wrong. Ed Kramer -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 12:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 What kind of occupancy? If these banners could come loose and fall would it cause an egress issue for occupants trying to exit the area in an emergency? Essentially it sounds like these banners are creating a sub-level ceiling below the sprinklers. I believe in one of the previous discussions it was mentioned about these types of items being suspended with some type of fusible link so that they could drop out of the way of the sprinkler discharge in a fire event. Other issue is if they would not drop out of the way would they hold water from a sprinkler to the point where the banner could either dump a large amount of water on person below or fill to the point it could create an issue with the structure's ability to support the weight? What will 18 below the heads accomplish? Suggestion: Put the banners on the wall. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 12:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 I recall this has been discussed, but not recently. Is there guidance anywhere as to how much gap needs to be between obstructions (each individual obstruction being no more than 48 wide) so that sprinklers are not needed beneath them? More specifically, I have a project where the architect would like to install banners beneath the ceiling and does not want sprinklers beneath the banners. I'm fairly confident he's willing to lower the banners so they're at least 18 below the sprink deflectors. He's also willing to make them narrower (48 max wide). But he would like to place them as close together as possible (without needing sprinks below them). Anybody aware of any guidelines for this? Ed Kramer Littleton, CO ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48
Just the 70% open on pipe racks or similar obstructions that I'm pulling out of my memory, so don't commit it to writing. And its not in 13, except the (valid) parallel to open grid ceilings. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 5:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: multiple obstructions that total more than 48 I agree completely, George. I don't pretend to be an engineer - if I can't point my finger to something 'blackwhite', it's outside the scope of what a techie should be doing. Wanted to make sure there wasn't something 'blackwhite' this techie was missing. Thanks to all who responded. Ed Kramer I'd tell him he needs to hire an EOR with qualifications (or lotsa EO) and ask him, it is not defined in NFPA 13 and needs to be addressed by a registered design professional; and obviously as an architect, it is outside his area of expertise. And yours. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: tapping fire lead in for domestic
They are separate, the domestic comes off a well. Don't make this overly complex, you're simply inserting a BFP into the supply of a pipe schedule system. Do you have the necessary flow and pressure under applicable #13? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 12:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: tapping fire lead in for domestic Because what is being said is that an additional backflow may be required on the sprinkler side of the dom. tap to prevent cross-contamination of the dom. System from the sprinklers. But the question is how is the existing domestic supply protected from the existing sprinkler system now? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 12:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: tapping fire lead in for domestic If the domestic was tapped into the lead in before the alarm check and the appropriate backflow preventer was installed in the plumbing line why would this affect the sprinkler calcs? 13 does not require us to add in the domestic demand so I am a bit confused. Dewayne -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 10:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: tapping fire lead in for domestic Taping the fire lead if allowed by the water purveyor, will alter the calc for the fire since now a RPZ must be installed on the riser after that tap for domestic. A re-calc is the only appropriate thing to do. That is after an internal inspection of the existing pipe to determine if the C is even close to 120. (Clean smooth bore) If the interior is anything but smooth it's just a guessing game, unless you run flow tests on each pipe segment. Typically we see these abandoned grocery store when they are at least 30 yrs old, and they never have had any internal pipe inspection done. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: tapping fire lead in for domestic We are remodeling an an old grocery store, being converted into a church. The existing fire sprinkler is pipe schedule, 3 in lead in. Wet system, alarm check valve with an anti freeze loop. Off of city supply. Existing domestic supply is well water. The owner intends to tap the fire main lead in to run 1 domestic. My concern is that he is creating a cross connection with the fire sprinkler water and anti freeze loop. My secondary concern is tapping the fire sprinkler risershould i recommend hydraulic calcs since they are modifying the supply of this existing pipe schedule system? I intend to notify the owner of my concerns in writing and recommend he consult with his Architect and Plumbing Engineer. Any recommendations? Forrest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Sep 24, 2010 10:26 am Subject: Pool as a water source To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org You can also use the pool for a heat sink for heat pumps and use a solar array to heat the pool to 50 degrees in winter (no freezing and the optimum heat transfer temperature for heat pump efficiency. Engineering kids. We're part of a group building a building. We don't drive the project nor is our part of the project an entity in a vacuum. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 6:16 AM, Jamie.seidl jamie.se...@gmail.com wrote: I've done it here in Charlotte. No problems out of it yet, but it was just the secondary source. We had an issue recently on a project that was a few years old where we had to prove the velocity at the roof top pool with a supply calc for the lowest system. The health department accepted it and they re-opened the pool the next week. I would stress 2 inlets. The pool contractor said that the largest inlet had a gpm velocity limit of 1400 gpm? Maybe that was for both? As far as a vortex plate, when we tested the pool, a vortex didn't develop until we had less than 1' of water left, approx 40,000 gallons already pumped, while my demand was around 32,000 gallons. I still sleep well at night. Jamie Sent from my iPhone On Sep 24, 2010, at 8:12 AM, Dewayne Martinez deway...@dbfp.net wrote: We have a owner that is requesting us to explore the
RE: Manufacturing with shipping storage
I believe you're back to determining the weight 5 of plastic vrs a Class I commodity. May not be sufficient weight of group a to be significant enough to support extended burn time. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Manufacturing with shipping storage Let me say where I'm coming from...I believe Chapter 13 Misc Storage applies to this. The Insurance Company is telling the owner due to the plastic sided cartons that the density could go as high as .70 regardless of height, but he is checking in to it. The owner has asked my opinion and I would like some feedback before giving my opinion, making sure I am not missing something. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 6:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Manufacturing with shipping storage We have a manufacturing facility making stainless steel exhaust parts. They are packaged for shipping on wooden pallets, sometimes in cardboard and sometimes in plastic sided cartons (both have open tops and both cartons are the size of the pallet) fully wrapped in shrink wrap (encapsulated) then stacked two high. The overall height is 68 of the double stacked pallets. How would you classify the storage in the shipping area? Thank you, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3155 - Release Date: 09/23/10 13:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Manufacturing with shipping storage
13 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Manufacturing with shipping storage Are you referring to the 15% volume of plastics...? I'm over looking it this morning; can you refer me to where this is? Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 6:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Manufacturing with shipping storage I believe you're back to determining the weight 5 of plastic vrs a Class I commodity. May not be sufficient weight of group a to be significant enough to support extended burn time. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:42 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Manufacturing with shipping storage Let me say where I'm coming from...I believe Chapter 13 Misc Storage applies to this. The Insurance Company is telling the owner due to the plastic sided cartons that the density could go as high as .70 regardless of height, but he is checking in to it. The owner has asked my opinion and I would like some feedback before giving my opinion, making sure I am not missing something. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 6:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Manufacturing with shipping storage We have a manufacturing facility making stainless steel exhaust parts. They are packaged for shipping on wooden pallets, sometimes in cardboard and sometimes in plastic sided cartons (both have open tops and both cartons are the size of the pallet) fully wrapped in shrink wrap (encapsulated) then stacked two high. The overall height is 68 of the double stacked pallets. How would you classify the storage in the shipping area? Thank you, Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3155 - Release Date: 09/23/10 13:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3155 - Release Date: 09/23/10 13:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pool as a water source
Not something I'm proud of, but did this twice. Routine painting - think they empty the hotel or have a fire watch? Have a minimum of two full-sized suction grates at least 6' apart so no one can block both entry points. Oversize since you're not likely to be able to have a vortex plate in the pool. Could run from pool to a wet well and use vertical turbine to avoid vortex plate, but we had insurance engr witness acceptance test and he ok'd the lack of vortex plate since there was no sign of a vortex creating a problem even at 150%. Tell your pump vendor, there are material substitutions to be made in the pump internals to address the chlorine. As for compatibility, check Lubrizol compatibility page or their techies, I beleiv it would have to be incredibly high to be a problem- but I could be wong. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:29 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Pool as a water source Speaking of the kids...what are the procedures for 'not sucking small children into pumps'? I have heard of issues with kids being trapped by water circulating pumps in pools, this seems like it would be a much more serious issue. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Richard Carr Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 7:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pool as a water source Yes I have done it and seen it done many times in Florida, figure the volume of the pool and do it like a tank, the chlorine was less harmful than using salt water which was an option. Just hope the kids can get out of the pool quickly... Richard Carr, SET Design Manager Associated Sprinkler Co., LLC 336.373.3901 ext 217 richa...@associatedsprinkler.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:13 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pool as a water source We have a owner that is requesting us to explore the possibility that a indoor pool be used as a water source for the sprinkler system. Anybody do this before? Seems like there would be too many problems with the chlorine in the water damaging the system components. Thanks, Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) This email and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the intended recipient(s). If you are not the named recipient you should not read, distribute, copy or alter this email. Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the author and do not represent those of the company. Warning: Although precautions have been taken to make sure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage that arise from the use of this email or attachments. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Seed corn in plastic totes
Isn't calcium chloride what I put in my lantern as a kid, produces acetylene gas when it mixes with water? While as a solution it might not be a problem until someone adds some to refresh the mix- and blows the place up. Out of the frypan and onto the cooking surface. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; 'Charles Thurston' Subject: RE: Seed corn in plastic totes Self toting totes! I should have specified ROOF slope. What do you guys think about Calcium Chloride Loops? I am going to be away from e-mail pretty soon til Monday- I want to see if this is a possible dent in the antifreeze problem, or a total wash-out. -Original Message- From: Charles Thurston [mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:23 PM To: Todd Williams Subject: Re: Seed corn in plastic totes Hello Todd, Curb Stops solve that, And provide dispersal of the water at the same time. Friday, September 24, 2010, 3:18:31 PM, you wrote: Much steeper and the totes will go sliding across the floor. 8-) At 03:11 PM 9/24/2010, you wrote: The building slope should not exceed 2/12 -Original Message- From: Gregory Lindholm [mailto:greg0...@msn.com] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:21 AM To: SprinklerFORUM Subject: Seed corn in plastic totes I have a customer that is looking to build a building with 30' eaves, storing seed corn in 4' x 4' x 3' high (open top) plastic totes, stacked as high as possible (over 30' high at the peak). Dry systems, so no ESFR. We are coming up with Group A plastics, but it looks like the highest that they could stack is 25'. What are we missing, or what are forum members thoughts? Greg Lindholm ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Best regards, Charles Thurstonmailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com Coastal Fire Protection/ Myrtle Beach Fire Safety Group. AFAA Guest Electronic Privacy Notice: This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Seed corn in plastic totes
I was corrected in-house Calcium carbide is what I was remembering incorrectly. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 3:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Seed corn in plastic totes Isn't calcium chloride what I put in my lantern as a kid, produces acetylene gas when it mixes with water? While as a solution it might not be a problem until someone adds some to refresh the mix- and blows the place up. Out of the frypan and onto the cooking surface. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; 'Charles Thurston' Subject: RE: Seed corn in plastic totes Self toting totes! I should have specified ROOF slope. What do you guys think about Calcium Chloride Loops? I am going to be away from e-mail pretty soon til Monday- I want to see if this is a possible dent in the antifreeze problem, or a total wash-out. -Original Message- From: Charles Thurston [mailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:23 PM To: Todd Williams Subject: Re: Seed corn in plastic totes Hello Todd, Curb Stops solve that, And provide dispersal of the water at the same time. Friday, September 24, 2010, 3:18:31 PM, you wrote: Much steeper and the totes will go sliding across the floor. 8-) At 03:11 PM 9/24/2010, you wrote: The building slope should not exceed 2/12 -Original Message- From: Gregory Lindholm [mailto:greg0...@msn.com] Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:21 AM To: SprinklerFORUM Subject: Seed corn in plastic totes I have a customer that is looking to build a building with 30' eaves, storing seed corn in 4' x 4' x 3' high (open top) plastic totes, stacked as high as possible (over 30' high at the peak). Dry systems, so no ESFR. We are coming up with Group A plastics, but it looks like the highest that they could stack is 25'. What are we missing, or what are forum members thoughts? Greg Lindholm ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Best regards, Charles Thurstonmailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com Coastal Fire Protection/ Myrtle Beach Fire Safety Group. AFAA Guest Electronic Privacy Notice: This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum
RE: Anti Freeze for commercial
Except anticipated temp is the driving force, and pressure varies with # hds operating, supply pres fluctuations, etc Hey, Mack, Don't pump into that FDC- there's AF in there! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 7:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Rod: It very well turn out that glycol 70/30 works fine at say 45-50Psi and you can only use 50/50 when pressure is over 60Psi or something like that. The same with glycerine. The is a starting end head pressure part of this story that needs to be worked out, not just the concentration. If 50/50 will work under all pressures up to 175, What will work at pressures less than 110 or 60 I think there needs to be a lot more study, before we get anywhere near the Definative answer we need to not feel EXPOSED! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 5:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial I hear ya George. I am sure that I will learn more next week in Rhode Island. Yet another reason to go to every convention. Truth is that we commonly mix glycol 70/30 out here and Marty tells me for over 30 years with no reported problem. I look forward to hearing and seeing the facts. At the end of the day we will get through it and I do have confidence that the right decision will be made. Just wondered if we knew with reasonable certainty that the antifreeze was the cause. Questioning why we haven't seen these in the past; or if we had, was there a different diagnosis? Read the report from FSI. Interesting and well done but I have some questions. Maybe they get answered next week! See you down there. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Anti Freeze Webinar
The Academy is running a webinar on this topic with some of the best minds, from the Best Practices group. Rather timely for this thread. http://www.fsi-bp.org/HomeOpen.aspx?id=1260 takes you to a Best Practices article on AF; much more during the webinar. glc Webinar: Designing Around Antifreeze The Panelists for this live broadcast are: Cecil Bilbo, Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Top Myers, Myers Risk Services Paul Johnson, Fire Sprinkler Industry Best Practices https://www1.gotomeeting.com/register/898182904 The NFPA Standards Council recently prohibited the use of antifreeze in newly installed fire sprinkler systems that protect dwelling units. This effectively took away the only option that many installing contractors believe they have when installing pipe in colder regions of the world. You'll learn the history behind the decision to temporarily ban antifreeze in some new systems. This broadcast will discuss how your company should be responding to the situation. We will discuss the different options available to ensure piping stays warm enough not to freeze. We will also discuss the myths about and solutions for insulating pipe. We will cover the rules for dry systems in Residential Occupancies and introduce the latest technologies for this application. Title: Designing Around Antifreeze Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010 Time: 11:00 AM - 1:00 PM CDT -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:55 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial In theory the FDC negates this good idea of pressure vs. concentration. In reality FDC aren't used but we live in the theoretical world far, far too often. Chris Cahill -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 6:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Rod: It very well turn out that glycol 70/30 works fine at say 45-50Psi and you can only use 50/50 when pressure is over 60Psi or something like that. The same with glycerine. The is a starting end head pressure part of this story that needs to be worked out, not just the concentration. If 50/50 will work under all pressures up to 175, What will work at pressures less than 110 or 60 I think there needs to be a lot more study, before we get anywhere near the Definative answer we need to not feel EXPOSED! -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 5:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial I hear ya George. I am sure that I will learn more next week in Rhode Island. Yet another reason to go to every convention. Truth is that we commonly mix glycol 70/30 out here and Marty tells me for over 30 years with no reported problem. I look forward to hearing and seeing the facts. At the end of the day we will get through it and I do have confidence that the right decision will be made. Just wondered if we knew with reasonable certainty that the antifreeze was the cause. Questioning why we haven't seen these in the past; or if we had, was there a different diagnosis? Read the report from FSI. Interesting and well done but I have some questions. Maybe they get answered next week! See you down there. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR
What jeff said. And... What exactly are u protecting, and what might be planned for storage? In control mode, you'll need to know what is stored, how it is packaged, storage array, height, etc. You may be looking at a boatload of IRAS. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR With most control mode, you have Group A plastic and pallet storage limitations that you would NOT have with ESFR K14 or K17. If these are areas of concern, then that would be an issue. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 3:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Control Mode vs. ESFR Having issues with an existing job that was laid out using ESFR K17's, it was mentioned by a local PE that using a Control Mode sprinkler may be the answer. What are the pro's and con's with using a Control Mode sprinkler in a warehouse type setting? I've looked at some of the product data sheets and right away you can see the end head pressure is quite a bit lower than the ESFR. Are the obstruction rules the same? Etc... Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15940) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR
IRAS = In rack auto sprkrs Guess if you don't know the difference between obstruction rules iin ESFR vrs SSU or CMSA's, you might not know what IRAS are either. Matt, good catch on the steel column protection too, although I believe IRAS will negate the requirement for them. If you've got a big box, cures switching to control mode might be an expensive cure. What are the issues? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR What jeff said. And... What exactly are u protecting, and what might be planned for storage? In control mode, you'll need to know what is stored, how it is packaged, storage array, height, etc. You may be looking at a boatload of IRAS. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR With most control mode, you have Group A plastic and pallet storage limitations that you would NOT have with ESFR K14 or K17. If these are areas of concern, then that would be an issue. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 3:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Control Mode vs. ESFR Having issues with an existing job that was laid out using ESFR K17's, it was mentioned by a local PE that using a Control Mode sprinkler may be the answer. What are the pro's and con's with using a Control Mode sprinkler in a warehouse type setting? I've looked at some of the product data sheets and right away you can see the end head pressure is quite a bit lower than the ESFR. Are the obstruction rules the same? Etc... Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15940) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR
Brian, I apologize and I didn't mean to make that a job, it was to answer the next question anticipated after I sent it. One of the problems with email is -no body language, tone inflection, etc. I've got a very polished and brutal sarcastic side that is pretty obvious, and I have a vendor/equipment problem that a couple major mfrs that have been great for decades, but in over a year they haven't been able to cure the problems with this installation. Being on the cutting edge is neat till stuff doesn't work out right- and my frame of mine- sarcastic- from that may also have carried over. I wouldn't want to count the hours I've invested in helping others on this forum for about 15 years, pro bono, but I think it illustrates I'm offering to help whenever I can. I became a design mgr with 3 yrs experience at the ripe old age of 22 in 1977. Learned a lot, survived, prospered, then lost my butt- and my fledging company- in 1985, prospered again, then lost my butt again last year and this year isn't looking so good either :) However, I love this business and pretty much eat, drink and sleep it, like many other sprinklergeeks I know- look around the forum you'll see a lot of the people we spend time with at convention or if we're in their area- or we go there to see em. Develop a thick skin- you'll need it in this game. And continue to ask questions. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR George- While I appreciate your tremendous wealth of knowledge I could do without the subtle jabs... Guess if you don't know the difference between obstruction rules in ESFR vs. SSU or CMSA's, you might not know what IRAS are either. Like every other designer I'm under the gun to get drawings out the door and sometimes I just don't have the liberty to spend as much time as I'd like digging through the code. I've only been in this field for a couple years and with my office situation you could say I've been thrown to the wolves, I'd like to think those of us with less years under our belt could rely on the forum to help a brother out. Please forgive me if I've taken your post out of context, maybe the deadlines are starting to get to me.. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR IRAS = In rack auto sprkrs Guess if you don't know the difference between obstruction rules iin ESFR vrs SSU or CMSA's, you might not know what IRAS are either. Matt, good catch on the steel column protection too, although I believe IRAS will negate the requirement for them. If you've got a big box, cures switching to control mode might be an expensive cure. What are the issues? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR What jeff said. And... What exactly are u protecting, and what might be planned for storage? In control mode, you'll need to know what is stored, how it is packaged, storage array, height, etc. You may be looking at a boatload of IRAS. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Control Mode vs. ESFR With most control mode, you have Group A plastic and pallet storage limitations that you would NOT have with ESFR K14 or K17. If these are areas of concern, then that would be an issue. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 3:08 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Control Mode vs. ESFR Having issues with an existing job that was laid out using ESFR K17's, it was mentioned by a local PE that using a Control Mode sprinkler may be the answer. What are the pro's and con's with using a Control Mode sprinkler in a warehouse type setting? I've looked at some of the product data sheets and right away you can see the end head pressure is quite a bit lower
RE: Anti Freeze for commercial
I heard from a committee member that the doors were shaking in their frames when the AF solutions at high % went boom. VERY SCARY to an experienced FPE. I saw some pics, maybe it was a video, nonetheless, it was something we should NOT be doing. However, like others, I see no problem with the premix since as of the results of both Phase 1 and 2 testing, the premix has not been a problem. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 10:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial There are some good reports out there. One from CCI I think from the NFPA website might sway your opinion some. Especially the part about 8 sprinklers of the 10 opening. How many do we design in apartments? As Top said, Explosion. Windows blown out.., Very Nasty. Top, any links to pics??? R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Am I the only one that is still somewhat skeptical? Seems like a lot of years without many problems and then a few isolated problems. I think the jury is still out. The facts are the facts and we must do what is right. I just don't know if we are dealing with hard facts at this point. No matter what it is a black eye for the industry at a time when we really didn't need it. I suspect the homebuilders will use this as a weapon in their arsenal. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Top Myers Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Have you all seen pictures of what happened when there was a problem. We are not talking a fire but some serious explosion. At some point we just have to do what is right. There are more possible TIA's ion the wings that address the fact that antifreezes are sometime used in restaurants and lodges and other areas that a group of people gather. NFPA did not takes these areas into consideration and they should have considered. I believe key is to allow premix glycerin only at 50% max. It is important to note that you cannot properly mix in field the same way a chemical processor can do. We need to design away from this stuff and it can be done. There are many contractors that do not use antifreeze. It is important to remember that in homes which will not be inspected or maintained having antifreeze, backflow, expansion tanks etc. will be a problem and a black eye for our industry. We are going to need help from AHJ's who want sprinklers in unheated areas and from builders who do not want to give us a soffit to properly insulate pipe. Tell both no and get it in writing with builder he is responsible for freeze if he will not help. Top Myers RelMark Group 961 Pottstown Pike Chester Springs, PA 19425 610-321-2415 X-219 Cell 610-952-0965 tmy...@relmarkgroup.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:01 PM To: Todd Williams; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Anti Freeze for commercial Is it really necessary to remove every head? It will be diluted after being drained and refilled with water. Its not like we're working with gasoline. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com Date: Wed, Sep 15, 2010 1:30 pm Subject: Anti Freeze for commercial To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org If you take the heads out and let the stuff spill on the floor. I don't know if it would have enough suction to be reliable. At 01:25 PM 9/15/2010, you wrote: Can you safely use a wet dry vacuum to make sure you get all of the antifreeze out of a residential system? Or is that a stupid question? Greg On 9/15/2010 10:57 AM, Todd Williams wrote: Maybe your cell mate, Dominick The Hammer, could caddy for you. At 11:28 AM 9/15/2010, you wrote: a-strip you of your assets b-put u in jail any questions? glc Not having any assets worth taking, I'm looking for a new retirement plan, so I have a question: Would that be one of those nice Fed. Jails with a golf course and tennis?
RE: Anti Freeze for commercial
We've likewise used AF to be able to install CPVC in existing attics where steel would be a nightmare, or other things like avoiding 30% increase in MRA off a limited water supply. I'm not a registered design professional, but ones I've talked to about this seem to agree the premix is fine. Items to watch for in addition to the obvious concentration are high pressure which leads to smaller droplets and existence of devices/equipment with open flames that could provide the spark like the unit heater in NJ, or coking facilities. Yes, Roland, NFPA limiting it to residential missed restaurants which could have AF, have done them, but in PA we're using premix so we believe we don't have a problem revealed in Ph 1 or 2 testing, and we're watching for the release of further testing to prove to the point NFPA desires that we continue to have a high level of confidence in the premix concentrations. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 11:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Anti Freeze for commercial Ok, I gotcha and that is why I asked the question. Pros - many years of acceptable performance. Con- could be disastrous under unknown conditions Got a building on the water with 1,200' of 3 existing water main. An antifreeze system works, a dry system won't because instead of reducing the demand area which ends up being 1,450 sq ft after all factors are include, you end up at 2,450 for dry system. I am planning on using 4.2 k heads since its wet (combustible concealed space). I was going to buy the pre-mixed stuff. glycol - 37%. Otherwise a small 4,300 sqft building becomes a very very expensive job. Greg On 9/22/2010 9:27 AM, Rod DiBona wrote: Am I the only one that is still somewhat skeptical? Seems like a lot of years without many problems and then a few isolated problems. I think the jury is still out. The facts are the facts and we must do what is right. I just don't know if we are dealing with hard facts at this point. No matter what it is a black eye for the industry at a time when we really didn't need it. I suspect the homebuilders will use this as a weapon in their arsenal. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Top Myers Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Have you all seen pictures of what happened when there was a problem. We are not talking a fire but some serious explosion. At some point we just have to do what is right. There are more possible TIA's ion the wings that address the fact that antifreezes are sometime used in restaurants and lodges and other areas that a group of people gather. NFPA did not takes these areas into consideration and they should have considered. I believe key is to allow premix glycerin only at 50% max. It is important to note that you cannot properly mix in field the same way a chemical processor can do. We need to design away from this stuff and it can be done. There are many contractors that do not use antifreeze. It is important to remember that in homes which will not be inspected or maintained having antifreeze, backflow, expansion tanks etc. will be a problem and a black eye for our industry. We are going to need help from AHJ's who want sprinklers in unheated areas and from builders who do not want to give us a soffit to properly insulate pipe. Tell both no and get it in writing with builder he is responsible for freeze if he will not help. Top Myers RelMark Group 961 Pottstown Pike Chester Springs, PA 19425 610-321-2415 X-219 Cell 610-952-0965 tmy...@relmarkgroup.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 4:01 PM To: Todd Williams; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Anti Freeze for commercial Is it really necessary to remove every head? It will be diluted after being drained and refilled with water. Its not like we're working with gasoline. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Todd Williamst...@fpdc.com Date: Wed, Sep 15, 2010 1:30 pm Subject: Anti Freeze for commercial To:sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org If you take the heads out and let the stuff spill on the floor. I don't know if it would have enough suction to be reliable. At 01:25 PM 9/15/2010, you wrote: Can you safely use a wet dry vacuum to make sure you get all of the antifreeze out of a residential system? Or is that a stupid question? Greg On 9/15/2010 10:57 AM, Todd Williams wrote: Maybe
RE: Anti Freeze for commercial
There's some commentary, I think by Roland recently, that the TIA's needed to get out- we've got sprinkler systems causing explosions and killing people- and the testing results were almost ready but TC members didn't have the chance to fully understand what was coming. I cannot fault the Standards Council, their job is to protect the best interests of the NFPA and that includes erring on the side of caution- a concept hopefully embraced by all readers of this great Forum. When I make my unwashed proclamation of what I'm seeing, I have the benefit of more info than they had, and no one is looking to me for an industry leadership position like they look at the NFPA (or you're nuts). AF % in your neck of the woods has gotta be 98%. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 4:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial I will read the reports mentioned and I really agree with Ron that you basically have three options of which only one is viable If. conclusive evidence is presented. AF over 50% didn't just become combustible so if this was a known FACT then why was the industry not concerned for all of these years. It will be interesting to see how it plays out but I am still a little skeptical. Maybe with some research and education I will be where most of you seem to be. At this point it doesn't seem to me that this is conclusive. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial When AF is above 50% it is a combustible liquid below 50% it is not easily ignited. Break it up, in a fine spray from sprinkler and there is no surprise that the spray is explosive. If we cant control the industry to not use high concentrations of AF then we must find a different method. Properly applied the AF is not a problem IMHO. Arthur Tiroly -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 10:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial There are some good reports out there. One from CCI I think from the NFPA website might sway your opinion some. Especially the part about 8 sprinklers of the 10 opening. How many do we design in apartments? As Top said, Explosion. Windows blown out.., Very Nasty. Top, any links to pics??? R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rod DiBona Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 9:28 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Am I the only one that is still somewhat skeptical? Seems like a lot of years without many problems and then a few isolated problems. I think the jury is still out. The facts are the facts and we must do what is right. I just don't know if we are dealing with hard facts at this point. No matter what it is a black eye for the industry at a time when we really didn't need it. I suspect the homebuilders will use this as a weapon in their arsenal. Rod DiBona Rapid Fire -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Top Myers Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 12:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Have you all seen pictures of what happened when there was a problem. We are not talking a fire but some serious explosion. At some point we just have to do what is right. There are more possible TIA's ion the wings that address the fact that antifreezes are sometime used in restaurants and lodges and other areas that a group of people gather. NFPA did not takes these areas into consideration and they should have considered. I believe key is to allow premix glycerin only at 50% max. It is important to note that you cannot properly mix in field the same way a chemical processor can do. We need to design away from this stuff and it can be done. There are many contractors that do not use antifreeze. It is important to remember that in homes which will not be inspected or maintained having antifreeze, backflow, expansion tanks etc. will be a problem and a black eye for our industry. We are going to need help from AHJ's who want sprinklers in unheated areas and
RE: Fire water mains for multiple building areas
There are those mission-critical folks, and those risk-averters, that SHOULD spend more than minimum consensus standards required. I'm sure there are a lot of folks that are glad the Pentagon may have had a heavier-than-usual spec. And an airport needs to realize- as do many other targets That multiple fires are more likely than before terrorist threats became a reality. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 12:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire water mains for multiple building areas I agree with Chris that this is the big issue. One of the a priori s of the standards is the single fire concept. Once you shift away from that all bets are off relative to the NFPA standards you've listed. You are now dealing with a municipal water system in theory and given the size, threat, etc. of your city you need a water supply that is commensurate with that concept. OI don't know of any particular documentation you could search but I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't guidelines that insurance raters use to rate municipalities that would apply or at least provide a starting point. On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Chris Cahill fpech...@embarqmail.com wrote: stakeholder demand to cope with two simultaneous fires. That is the critical phrase as I see it. If the stakeholder wants this and thus is willing to pay for it what does it matter? Big pump(s), big tanks(s). Just be careful on the big tanks. Sounds like this system could also serve domestic uses much like a municipal system and if you don't get the turnover in the tanks that water gets stale. Chris Cahill -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Geir Jensen Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 5:47 AM To: Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire water mains for multiple building areas Fire water mains of a propritary large development shall serve multiple sprinklered buildings spaced well apart. Envision an industrial plant, an airport or a university campus including laboratories. The fire water mains shall also serve fire brigade hydrants. In such cases we comply with a number of standards within NFPA (such as 1, 13, 24, 14, 101 and the occupancy specific standards) or similar. Add to this national regulations. Add to this hose allowance. Even add to this stakeholder demand to cope with two simultaneous fires. In complying to all requirements, water demand tends to increase by method of addition to seemingly unrealistic proportion. Each standard incorporate a kind of safety factor, so in lack of a systematic approach (like probability risk analysis) water demand is unduly increased. Any suggestion to a guide or a standard that addresses this? Any experience on determining the demand at such large proprietary fire water mains? I am not asking about the water mains design. My concern is assessment of water demand only. Geir Jensen COWI Fire Technical Director g...@cowi.commailto:%20g...@cowi.no www.cowi.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical
RE: Monitor nozzle
Seriously, how many of us were staying up at night this weekend, worrying about the .97 vrs .98? Your nozzle must be fundamentally different :) -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 1:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Monitor nozzle --And if you just have Q, convert to ft^3/sec, convert 1.75 diam to ft^2, divide 1st by 2nd to get ft/sec, h=v^2/2g, P= h x .433. (coefficient of discharge for monitor noz might be about .98, g=32.2 ft/sec^2)-- This means the coefficient of discharge is .97 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Monitor nozzle And if you just have Q, convert to ft^3/sec, convert 1.75 diam to ft^2, divide 1st by 2nd to get ft/sec, h=v^2/2g, P= h x .433. (coefficient of discharge for monitor noz might be about .98, g=32.2 ft/sec^2) -Original Message- From: Art Tiroly [mailto:atir...@atcofirepro.com] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Monitor nozzle A 1.75 smooth bore nozzle has a K = 88.67. Your nozzle may be different. Art -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jamie.seidl Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Monitor nozzle Thanks Richard. That one is an old one to me :). Must be Monday here. Jamie Sent from my iPhone On Sep 16, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Richard Carr richa...@associatedsprinkler.com wrote: K= Q DIVIDED BY SQUARE ROOT OF P, So if you have your Q and P you can get your K. Richard Carr, SET Design Manager Associated Sprinkler Co., LLC 336.373.3901 ext 217 richa...@associatedsprinkler.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jamie.seidl Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:33 AM To: Afsa Subject: Monitor nozzle Does anyone have a k factor equivalent for a 1-3/4 monitor nozzle? Jamie Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) This email and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the intended recipient(s). If you are not the named recipient you should not read, distribute, copy or alter this email. Any views or opinions expressed in this email are those of the author and do not represent those of the company. Warning: Although precautions have been taken to make sure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage that arise from the use of this email or attachments. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to:
RE: Monitor nozzle
As opposed to 'wow, there goes prolific brad'? Just out of curiosity, is there supposed to be a comma between amazing and brad? Or is there none there intentionally. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 3:46 PM To: 'Thom'; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Monitor nozzle :) the main reason I post anything is I want all other sprinks to say 'wow that's amazing brad'. Once I put gravity back into the formulas and used feet and seconds only, I gained a tremendous amount of sprinkler calc confidence-- now I can use derived formulas and look-up tables most of the time- but am able to get from one thing to another logically in any rare situations. -Original Message- From: Thom [mailto:tmcma...@firetechinc.com] Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 2:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com Subject: RE: Monitor nozzle Yeah besides that .98/.97 really only works in the theory world. When the fitter drops the nozzle installing it, do you think he'll ever admit it's egg shaped with that big gouge in it cause he dropped it. Especially if no one notices. What's it's CD now? .821365798213465? Seriously, how many of us were staying up at night this weekend, worrying about the .97 vrs .98? Your nozzle must be fundamentally different :) --And if you just have Q, convert to ft^3/sec, convert 1.75 diam to ft^2, divide 1st by 2nd to get ft/sec, h=v^2/2g, P= h x .433. (coefficient of discharge for monitor noz might be about .98, g=32.2 ft/sec^2)-- This means the coefficient of discharge is .97 And if you just have Q, convert to ft^3/sec, convert 1.75 diam to ft^2, divide 1st by 2nd to get ft/sec, h=v^2/2g, P= h x .433. (coefficient of discharge for monitor noz might be about .98, g=32.2 ft/sec^2) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pump Churn
What needs to be looked at is the curve of the pump you are using, not a guess at the range of values not supported by anything. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 10:16 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pump Churn I would check it too! I was in the middle of design for a couple of these bads boys (3,000 gpm) and that's actually what happened. I don't base design on these figures necessarily and stay with the 10-20% range. But the 140% does need to be looked at when your rated pressure gets to be 125 psi or so, no? At 10:03 AM 9/18/2010, you wrote: I would check the 140% just to be sure. Churn will be system pressure, or actually 5# above churn if everything is set right and you should know if you'll be above 175# for system fittings and heads. You can specify a max. churn if you need to and let the pump mfgrs. build to spec. It's not uncommon to see max churn in specifications, especially when concerned with keeping system pressures below 175 or whatever. Until the early 80's is was 120% but when VIP's came out, they petitioned for change. TD In my experience most pumps are usually 110-115%, some higher. Vertical turbines go about 130-140% . At 09:30 AM 9/17/2010, you wrote: NFPA 20 says that pump shutoff (churn) can range from 101% - 140% of the rated head. I use Hydracalc for our hydraulics and I see by default it sets it to 110%, where does 110% come from? Is that pretty much the industry standard for safety or is there more to it? Brian Harris ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Vince Sabolik Christi Fire Protection, Inc. 11351 Pearl Road Strongsville, Ohio 44136 T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email: mailto:vi...@christifire.comvi...@christifire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pump Churn
First, its far better once you're out of the estimating phase, to input the actual pump curve from the mfr's performance graph. It doesn't need to tbe the certified pump curve for your exact pump, the model is fine. But that will tell you the reality you're dealing with. You'll find, for example, that some larger pumps don't drop off near as much as the NFPA 20 criteria allows them to, and you have more than 65% at 150%. We installed a large pump last summer that only dropped from 2104 to 2101 rpm going from churn to 150%- zero flow to 4500 GPM! If you're estimating (i.e., in a hurry), then 110% is closer to the average than the max allowed (140%). Don't be optimistic you'll find one producing way out at the max. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pump Churn NFPA 20 says that pump shutoff (churn) can range from 101% - 140% of the rated head. I use Hydracalc for our hydraulics and I see by default it sets it to 110%, where does 110% come from? Is that pretty much the industry standard for safety or is there more to it? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15900) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Moving part of sprinkler system
Detection and water cannon(s) ? I've seen some spots, a high gallery at the King of Prussia mall during a renovation comes to mind, where it would have been a godsend to have been able to do that instead of getting over fountains in an articulating boom. Course then you think about the AP news story front page of what a false trip would result in.and install closed head wet. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matsuda, Richard Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 9:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Moving part of sprinkler system I didn't see this email before I responded earlier so please ignore my suggestion for the carousel and platform. Heck, this is a fully enclosed room which is going up and down...and rotating, too? rick matsuda -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Geir Jensen Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Moving part of sprinkler system Thanks. This stage platform is a fully enclosed volume (the top of it make up part of the main stage floor), though no fire resistance rating. Volume is 50 sq meter x 2,3 meter high (some 550 sq ft x 7 f height). It contain mechanical and electrical components plus some sandwhich panels with combustible insulation. Total weight is an issue which prohibits full-size stand alone units mounted on the moving structure. Geir Jensen COWI Fire g...@cowi.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Richardson, R Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 3:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Moving part of sprinkler system Is this a second floor level of the stage or is there a hole in the floor when it raises? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 06:26 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Moving part of sprinkler system Look at what they do for the waterway of a fire apparatus aerial platform. Contact one of the major manufacturers I'm sure than can help. As for listing request a variation - Original Message - From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org To: Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Fri Sep 17 07:56:45 2010 Subject: Moving part of sprinkler system A part of a theater stage is moving up-down and may turn up to 360 degrees. Building is fully sprinklered except for the moving part which contain LH type of combustible material and require 6-10 sprinkler heads. Does a design exist to accommodate this? A swivel pipe connection or a 360 degree twistable coil of flexible pipe or hose is my immediate idea. However, suspect neither listed nor offered designs are available for such application? We considered stand alone system for the moving part, but challenges are cost, maintentence, space, certifications etc. Appreciate any advice... Geir Jensen COWI Fire g...@cowi.commailto:%20g...@cowi.no ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all copies. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
RE: AFSA
LOL- I'm picturing Ron with 15 lbs of gold chain around his neck like Mr T. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 10:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: AFSA You cleanse them with fire if you're a fire guy. On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 7:31 AM, cherokeefire...@aol.com cherokeefire...@aol.com wrote: George is right. My question is what do you do with parasites? You destroy them, through antibiotics or garlic in primitive areas without access to drugs. Therefore, I propose that the AFSA fund a garlic van team, similar to the A Team. The team would travel around the country to visit these non members, and give them a choice: Sign a check on the spot or be forced to eat 100 cloves of garlic. And they should certainly be singled out if they step within 100 yards of the convention. Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: George Church for...@ptd.net Date: Thu, Sep 16, 2010 1:24 pm Subject: AFSA To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org And let me stick in one last plug for attending the AFSA Convention, and remind all on here that the Association needs a membership check or a donation if you can't afford to pay in full for the services you use. If you don't pay your own way, the rest of us carry you. PARASITE would be the applicable word for those in that category. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire pump meter loop
Got this series of questions and comments from a Fire Marshal in a neighboring county. Any ideas? Q. I am looking for some low flow rate residential sprinkler heads. I can find 13 GPM heads but, would like to find one with a lower rate of discharge. Q. Ordinary or Intermediate Temperature? Q. Type of head- pendant, concealed, side wall, etc?? A. Either recessed or concealed pendant . 135 or 155. I am trying to work through a P2904 sprinkler system that has a ¾ supply feed at about 50 in length which limits me to 14 GPM. The houses at Stevens Tech had new water services installed recently and only installed ¾ pipe. Street is closed , sidewalk is poured and the front porch footers are in place. POPPPS!! They forgot to put me in that loop. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pipe Schedule Systems
Sounds like the AHJ may be overstepping his boundries. Additions to Pipe schedule systems are allowed without calcs in #13. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:10 AM To: AFSA Subject: Re: Pipe Schedule Systems The standard requires a minimum pressure be available at the highest/most remote sprinkler - is that the calc that's been requested? Still no requirement for a hose allowance though. Steve Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Matthew J. Willis m...@norredfire.com Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 08:59:48 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pipe Schedule Systems Then it will no longer be a pipe schedule, but a calculated system. Which requires hose streams. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pipe Schedule Systems David- We are doing some minor work to an existing warehouse that was done with the pipe schedule method. Now the AHJ wants us to provide hydraulic calc's to show him if the existing system will work. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:39 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pipe Schedule Systems What exactly would you add it to? David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: david.au...@nebraska.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pipe Schedule Systems I swear I read somewhere that for a pipe schedule system you do not need to add hose allowance, Am I nuts? Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15890) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15890) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15890) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3137 - Release Date: 09/16/10 01:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list
RE: Pump Rooms
Dan, what's another name for an FS bracket? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dan Arbel Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:53 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pump Rooms Have a case of pump room flooding to failure of FS bracket on 6 riser. The diesel engine was damaged. I have got 2 such failures in the last months. One noted above, one in another place on 3 mains. I wonder if any of the forum members experienced such failures. The brackets are of Aluminum casting. www.riskmanage.com Dan Arbel, T: +972-4-8243337; F: +972-4-8243278; M: +972-52-2810593 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 17:44 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pump Rooms Matt- The pump room is in the basement of the warehouse. Electric motor driven. Brian Harris FDFP Inc. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 11:41 AM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: Pump Rooms Inside pump room or outside pump house? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 10:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pump Rooms What's the consensus on ventilating pump rooms? 5.12.5 (NFPA 20) Says that provisions for ventilation need to be made, is this for all pump rooms or diesel only? I'm getting conflicting stories from the AHJ the pump rep. Brian Harris First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15890) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15890) http://www.pctools.com/ === === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15890) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.445 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3137 - Release Date: 09/16/10 06:34:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
AFSA
And let me stick in one last plug for attending the AFSA Convention, and remind all on here that the Association needs a membership check or a donation if you can't afford to pay in full for the services you use. If you don't pay your own way, the rest of us carry you. PARASITE would be the applicable word for those in that category. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Anti Freeze for commercial
So long as the mix is within limits as noted in the initial testing, and you're not in an area with either unit heaters (a la NJ) or cooking areas (Tuckee) and the customer is aware of the ban and you present alternatives- ugly as they may be- and the Owner understands it is the obvious choice in your scenario, then you've done your part to educate. It is likely that the AHJ has not codified the recent TIAs so while it is a recognized problem, its probably not in the ADOPTED code yet in your jurisdiction, although I'd suggest contacting the AHJ to CYA- and stay abreast of the continuing testing. We're bidding a project this week with AF loop shown for protecting a couple garages in an apt building, no unit heaters, and the EOR understood the problem, did research, and echoed what I wrote above. Note that this is my personal opinion, I'm not a registered design professional, and this is outside the scope of my TC work. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Anti Freeze for commercial How do you all feel about continuing to utilize antifreeze in commercial systems? Thanks, Greg On 9/14/2010 10:52 AM, Charles Thurston wrote: Hello Matthew, I was just told by the Tyco rep the notice would be out tomorrow about the dry system. Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 11:15:37 AM, you wrote: A timely answer to A/F woes... Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: Residential Dry Systems I haven't seen the flyer but I believe its in the neighborhood of 15 PSI. The concern is the same as in steel pipe systems- huge amount of potential energy with the possibility of rupturing piping in the case of CPVC. The inevitable air pockets in a CPVC system undergoing acceptance testing at 200 PSI certainly has the air in the pocket at 200 PSI; but with the vast majority of the piping filled with virtually incompressible water, the amount of stored energy isn't as great. Most of us have heard the incredible power of caps blowing thru block walls when there is a buildup of excessive pressure in steel pipe systems. The residential dry system will be tripped on sustained decay of air pressure, based on the Potter QRS switch used in their electronic accelerator. It might just open a solenoid since there is no need for a differential-type DPV. Naturally residential systems will need to be calculated for water delivery time, 15 seconds. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Residential Dry Systems Has anyone seen the flyer for the new Tyco Residential Dry Pipe systems? It states that it is listed for use with Tyco CPVC pipe and fittings. I was surprised to see the use of CPVC with a dry system. I had always thought that compressed air and CPVC was a very bad thing. -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3134 - Release Date: 09/14/10 01:35:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ
RE: Anti Freeze for commercial
AMEN I said address it intelligently with Owner and contact AHJ. Ignoring it could lead to being found negligent. Being found negligent can a-strip you of your assets b-put u in jail any questions? glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of jdenha...@stricklandfire.com Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 10:14 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Anti Freeze for commercial You better have your backside protected if you ignore it. John Sent from my BlackBerryR smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect -Original Message- From: Dewayne Martinez deway...@dbfp.net Sender: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 08:55:27 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Reply-To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial Since this only affects the 2010 versions what is everyone else doing in municipalities that only recognize 2007 or earlier? Ignore it? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 8:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial So long as the mix is within limits as noted in the initial testing, and you're not in an area with either unit heaters (a la NJ) or cooking areas (Tuckee) and the customer is aware of the ban and you present alternatives- ugly as they may be- and the Owner understands it is the obvious choice in your scenario, then you've done your part to educate. It is likely that the AHJ has not codified the recent TIAs so while it is a recognized problem, its probably not in the ADOPTED code yet in your jurisdiction, although I'd suggest contacting the AHJ to CYA- and stay abreast of the continuing testing. We're bidding a project this week with AF loop shown for protecting a couple garages in an apt building, no unit heaters, and the EOR understood the problem, did research, and echoed what I wrote above. Note that this is my personal opinion, I'm not a registered design professional, and this is outside the scope of my TC work. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 9:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Anti Freeze for commercial How do you all feel about continuing to utilize antifreeze in commercial systems? Thanks, Greg On 9/14/2010 10:52 AM, Charles Thurston wrote: Hello Matthew, I was just told by the Tyco rep the notice would be out tomorrow about the dry system. Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 11:15:37 AM, you wrote: A timely answer to A/F woes... Matthew J. Willis, CET Automatic Fire Sprinklers Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-816-1087 Mobile 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum- boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: Residential Dry Systems I haven't seen the flyer but I believe its in the neighborhood of 15 PSI. The concern is the same as in steel pipe systems- huge amount of potential energy with the possibility of rupturing piping in the case of CPVC. The inevitable air pockets in a CPVC system undergoing acceptance testing at 200 PSI certainly has the air in the pocket at 200 PSI; but with the vast majority of the piping filled with virtually incompressible water, the amount of stored energy isn't as great. Most of us have heard the incredible power of caps blowing thru block walls when there is a buildup of excessive pressure in steel pipe systems. The residential dry system will be tripped on sustained decay of air pressure, based on the Potter QRS switch used in their electronic accelerator. It might just open a solenoid since there is no need for a differential-type DPV. Naturally residential systems will need to be calculated for water delivery time, 15 seconds. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Residential Dry Systems Has anyone seen the flyer for the new Tyco Residential Dry Pipe systems? It states that it is listed for use with Tyco CPVC pipe and fittings. I was surprised to see the use of CPVC with a dry system. I had always thought that compressed air and CPVC was a very bad thing. -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC
RE: Fire pump meter loop
I don't know if #20 has changed, but a header wasn't required, only a means of testing the fire pump. So you could test from standpipe hose valves or a roof manifold, hydrants off the boosted UG loop, or other means on the 3-year basis. Or toss in a valved outlet and every 3 years hook up a pipe with sufficient hose valves and install for the day. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Fire pump meter loop 2002 NFPA-25 8.3.3.1.2.3 Use of the Pump Discharge Via the Bypass Flowmeter to Pump Suction (Closed-Loop Metering). Pump suction and discharge pressures and the flowmeter measurements shall determine the total pump output. 8.3.3.1.3 Where the annual test is conducted periodically in accordance with 8.3.3.1.2.3, a test shall be conducted every 3 years in accordance with 8.3.3.1.2.1 or 8.3.3.1.2.2 in lieu of the method described in 8.3.3.1.2.3. John Drucker Jr CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ PS, Interesting, just had this conversation with a building owner about an hour ago :-) -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jamie.seidl Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 12:39 PM To: Afsa Subject: Fire pump meter loop I seem to recall that if you have a meter loop on a fire pump, you are still required to install a pump test header, and do a discharge test every 5 years, but I can't seem to find it in 20. Is this correct? Jamie Sent from my iPhone ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all copies. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Residential Dry Systems
I haven't seen the flyer but I believe its in the neighborhood of 15 PSI. The concern is the same as in steel pipe systems- huge amount of potential energy with the possibility of rupturing piping in the case of CPVC. The inevitable air pockets in a CPVC system undergoing acceptance testing at 200 PSI certainly has the air in the pocket at 200 PSI; but with the vast majority of the piping filled with virtually incompressible water, the amount of stored energy isn't as great. Most of us have heard the incredible power of caps blowing thru block walls when there is a buildup of excessive pressure in steel pipe systems. The residential dry system will be tripped on sustained decay of air pressure, based on the Potter QRS switch used in their electronic accelerator. It might just open a solenoid since there is no need for a differential-type DPV. Naturally residential systems will need to be calculated for water delivery time, 15 seconds. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 11:01 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Residential Dry Systems Has anyone seen the flyer for the new Tyco Residential Dry Pipe systems? It states that it is listed for use with Tyco CPVC pipe and fittings. I was surprised to see the use of CPVC with a dry system. I had always thought that compressed air and CPVC was a very bad thing. -- Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. Sincerely, Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 Office (480) 505-9271 Fax (866) 430-6107 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Spec Building
Naturally any of these are simply a starting point for either the discussion with the AHJ or the support for the qualification you'd put in your proposal. Approved means accepted by the (local?) AHJ. Or we can do what many of us have done for years- it's an empty building, OH 1 should cover it. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Letterman, Todd Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 10:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Spec Building There use to be a spec density in the UBC standards Volume 3 which was a Ordinary hazard II/ 3000 for undetermined use. Todd Letterman Fire Prevention Engineer CFPS Riverside County Fire Department Fire never sleeps (951) 955-5273 FAX (951) 955-4886 todd.letter...@fire.ca.gov Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass but learning how to dance in the rain -Original Message- From: Gary Stites [mailto:gsti...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 4:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Spec Building I seem to remember a density (.17 / 3000' ? - .25 / 3000'?)) for buildings with undetermined occupancy. Such as a spec building or a lease building. Anybody know where that code is? (If it exists at all) -- Gary Stites www.sprinklersoft.net ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Antifreeze
It's not that they don't understand that you're putting in food grade additives. It's a realization, likely true, that some moron may toss Prestone in there at some future date. And as many times as we've seen empty jugs of Prestone in attics, its tough to argue with them (the water purveyor) about it. You can also minimize the impact if this is an addition by sizing the RPZ for just the tag-along extension, not go back to the riser and replace an 8 DCDA with an RPZ and kill the calcs in the rest of the building. And while I don't minimize the deaths allegedly related to AF in NJ and CA, I also don't think for those of us in climes where premix works, that the sky is falling and the test data released to date indicates -for the samples tested- that the premix didnt support explosions. So if you're installing premix, you SHOULD, MIGHT, COULD BE, all right. Or they could sue your butt off, just depends if there is a unit heater out there and a picnic table.who'd have thunk those would drive what cold protection scheme you use? Your state doesn't adopt TIA's as soon as they are issued, do they? And is this a dreaded residential occupancy? If so, consider dry-pipe or a beer system. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 4:30 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'; 'tm...@mfpdesign.com' Subject: RE: Antifreeze That is my understanding also. Most water suppliers (all that I know of) require an RP whenever a foreign chemical is introduced. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Antifreeze dependent on the water purveyor is my understanding. On 9/13/2010 1:14 PM, Brian Harris wrote: I've searched through NFPA-13 the archives and can't find a definitive answer.. Do antifreeze loops require an RPZ on the supply into the building or is this dependant on the AHJ? Brian Harris Design Manager First Defense Fire Protection 11957 Ramah Church Road Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone: 704.948.3506 Fax: 704.948.3507 Nicet # 128476 === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15860) http://www.pctools.com/ === ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: ESFR Heads Skylights
Tell em you can't move without significant added cost (i.e., COR) and just shift them to center between your lines. End of problem. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 6:46 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: ESFR Heads Skylights Brian, I know in the past we have ignored the skylights because they were small. I am not saying this was correct but we ran into the same problem with the 8ft min plus 13 wants the heads on adjacent lines to maintain the same pattern so you could potentially add a lot of sprinklers. What about having the owner provide some type of cover for the skylight? Dewayne Martinez Design Build Fire Protection New Berlin, WI -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 4:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: ESFR Heads Skylights I'm working on a job that has ESFR K22.5 heads and now the owner wants to add a row of skylights down the middle of the building. Of course there's a row of heads down the middle of the building as well, the problem is that the heads are pendants with a current deflector distance of 15, with the skylights installed (5) of the heads fall directly under the skylights and in those areas the deflectors will be 32 down. Any ideas as to the quickest/cheapest fix? Even re-spacing the entire line doesn't seem to work because of the 8' min. distance requirement between the heads. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Brian Harris FDFP Inc. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
NFPA 13 and 20 certainly DO allow performance-based designs under 1.5 Equivalency. So long as a test indicates a certain level of performance, and the AHJ approves the use of those results and the contractor is prudent enough to allow degradation of pump and water supply to the satisfaction of the AHJ, or AHJs (plural) since BCO, fire official, and insurance AHJ could all be involved, if it is APPROVED (found acceptable to the AHJs) then there is nothing preventing the use of more than the rating of a pump if that higher level of performance exists that I'm aware of. Written documentation by a qualified person must be submitted to the AHJ to gain approval. Versus the competitor who, in a proposal I just read, that their insurance carrier wouldn't let them do anything that wasn't in the code. Well, its in there, I just don't think they know what options are available to them, and I sure bet they don't subscribe to this Forum where they could learn. You get out of it what you put into it, and from the sound of their proposal, they don't put forth much extra effort. (sigh) sometimes its like shooting fish in a barrel, we got the job. Thanks, AFSA, for hosting the Forum. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:42 AM To: Fletcher, Ron; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM The pumps are listed by UL per an approved, ISO registered process. The mfr wont guarantee a new pump to perform up to and including the safety margin. You are proposing a performance based design, using the safety margin. If this is not an accepted design method in new pump installations, then it is likely not in retro fits either. The pump performance test could be used to measure any degradation in performance against the original curve. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 9:58 am Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
It's not as easy to retrofit one on a Tier III as it first seemed.. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To
RE: Massive crew fights fire at landmark
So where's the answer to the question inquiring minds need to know- WERE THERE SPRKRS? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:32 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Massive crew fights fire at landmark Massive crew fights fire at landmark Nearly 200 respond to 27th-floor blaze at downtown Chase building By MIKE GLENN, HOUSTON CHRONICLE The Houston Chronicle August 31, 2010 Houston firefighters followed the textbook approach in fighting a blaze at a high-rise building Monday night, officials said, sending dozens of fire trucks and deploying nearly 200 crew members. No one was seriously injured in the fire at the JPMorgan Chase building at 712 Main, formerly the Gulf Building, officials said. Five firefighters were taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation, but their injuries were not life-threatening, said Assistant Chief Jack Williams. No cause had been determined by late Monday. The fire, reported shortly after 8 p.m., was confined to the 27th floor of the historic building, officials said. At one point, clouds of smoke could be seen coming from near the top of the building. The floor is used solely by the Houston Volunteer Lawyers Program, the pro bono wing of the Houston Bar Association. The fire was brought under control about 11:20 p.m., said Assistant Chief Omero Longoria. Fire officials said fighting such fires is labor-intensive. In Monday's blaze, about 175 firefighters responded, many carrying their equipment up the stairs. Fresh crews were brought in throughout the night to replace their fatigued colleagues. Any fire in a high-rise is intensive, just to get water to that level, Longoria said. Mayor Annise Parker complimented the department's efforts. They went above and beyond tonight, she said outside the building Monday night. They had to pull the hoses all the way up. Parker said she worked in the Art Deco building for 12 years. It's a beautiful, historic building, she said. Firefighters also had to deal with a problem with the building's internal water supply - apparently a broken pipe. HFD had to pipe water directly into the building. City officials said they hope traffic around the building will be cleared by this morning but were not certain. It's going to be a long night, Parker said. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
They're available now from Clarke. We're retrofitting one from 2009. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phelps, Mark Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Can any of the pump manufacturers weigh in on this issue, and elaborate a little on the future availability of a PLD on a Tier III? Mark at Aero -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM It's not as easy to retrofit one on a Tier III as it first seemed.. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp
RE: Job Tracking Software
Brian- There are more of these than you can shake a stick at. I remember after realizing $25,000 into the wrong program, discussing it with a GC customer who told me they had a similar mistake- except at a zero at the end. Depends what you need it to do, what cost acctg you'e expecting it to track if costs are involved, or if you simply want scheduling; budget; ease of use; You might be better asking those in a similar capacity and similarly sized firms as to what they have found successful- and what they haven't like is as important. For our overall project scheduling, we just use a spreadsheet on Exel, jobs down the left, some #des hrs, #hds, #lab hrs to the right summarizing the estimate, and then L to R we have columns for the upcoming weeks with design and labor hrs per job on each job's lines, and a summary on the bottom- divided by 40 to get the # folks needed to accomplish it staring you in the face, good or bad. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Job Tracking Software MS Project Primavera Suretrak http://www.microsoft.com/project/en/us/default.aspx http://www.oracle.com/us/products/applications/042378.htm Used both, MSP is less money but PST is the leader. John Drucker Jr CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; tm...@mfpdesign.com Subject: RE: Job Tracking Software I've seen some programs that create a type of graph, and say for example a job is running late it automatically updates the other projects completion dates to reflect it. Regards, Brian Harris FDFP INC. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Job Tracking Software MS Excel..Just make a spreadsheet with what you want to track. On 8/31/2010 12:10 PM, Brian Harris wrote: I'm looking to get some type of software that I can track/schedule active jobs, any input? Brian Harris Design Manager First Defense Fire Protection, Inc. 11957 Ramah Church Rd. Huntersville, NC 28078 Phone - 704.948.3506 Fax - 704.948.3507 NICET #128476 br...@firstdefensefire.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all copies. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___
