from:"Thomas Watt"

RE: Pex

2016-09-30 Thread Thomas Watt

As much as I dislike CPVC there do appear to be some advantages over PEX.
http://www.resfire.com/news/10-reasons-why-cpvc-piping-are-preferred.html

On Sep 30, 2016 4:42 PM, "John Drucker"  wrote:

> Team,
>
>
>
> As an AHJ the number one complaint…..too complicated, costs too much, add
> ons not required by code.   So let’s knock it off, KIS….Keep it Simple.
>
>
>
> Like I said, monitored household fire alarm systems installed by alarm
> people are great….but I’ll take an electrician installing hardwired
> interconnected (in 2015 the interconnect can even be wireless !) smoke
> alarms as recognized by the IBC and NFPA-72.
>
>
>
> Remember nothing gets us just that… nothing.
>
>
>
> Yours in Fire Safety,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> John Drucker, CET
>
> Assistant Construction Official
>
> Fire Protection Subcode Official
>
> Electrical Subcode Official
>
> Building Inspector
>
> Borough of Red Bank, NJ
>
> 90 Monmouth Street
>
> Red Bank, New Jersey 07701
>
> Cel/Text: 732-904-6823
>
> Email: jdruc...@redbanknj.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton
> *Sent:* Friday, September 30, 2016 4:16 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Pex
>
>
>
> I don’t want to pile on but I think you’re looking at this from a somewhat
> archaic perspective.   It’s seems like the UA freaking out 30 years ago
> when open shops came into the mainstream.
>
>
>
> To me, the perfect residential sprinkler system is a branch off of the
> domestic water supply, composed of pipe, fittings, sprinklers and  …
> nothing else.  A dumb, naked network of piping with nothing else that would
> require maintenance, add cost or potentially encumber the operation of the
> sprinklers in case of fire.   In other words, it’s plumbing.  Now, I know
> that saying such a thing out loud is heresy in some parts, but that’s what
> it is. INSERT PERIOD HERE.
>
>
>
> DELETE >>> and you can truss it up with a flow switch and a gauge and a
> test and drain if you want, but none of the attachments that you might put
> on a 13D- or IRC-based system will enhance the performance of the system as
> it pertains to controlling a fire to its compartment of origin.
>
>
>
> For the record, I have an old home (old for San Diego, built 1956) that’s
> partially sprinklered.  There’s a stand-alone garage that’s protected with
> exposed steel pipe (and ½” SSU’s) that comes off a copper underground feed
> and I’ll be completing the retrofit as part of a remodel and intend to do
> it with PEX.   If money wasn’t a consideration for my domestic plumbing, I
> would have to carefully consider the benefits of copper before making that
> decision, but I’m not aware of any.For sake of turning the conversation
> to a more informative tone, what do you perceive the benefits of copper and
> CPVC to be over PEX in domestic and fire protection applications?
>
>
>
> Steve L.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org ] *On Behalf Of *John
> Irwin
> *Sent:* Friday, September 30, 2016 12:47 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* RE: Pex
>
>
>
> Well the Intent of the original email was actually to educate myself.
>
>
>
>
>
> For 25 years I've been brought up to take pride in the fact that we're
> more than plumbers. I'm not crazy about a fire protection system you can
> buy on Amazon and watch a YouTube video on how to install it.
>
>
>
> Also I consent that it's better to have Pex sprinklers in a single family
> home than to have no sprinklers at all. But it just feels cheap to me. And
> the same goes for the plumbing.
>
>
>
> If money was not a consideration and you were plumbing and sprinklering
> your own home, would you use Pex or copper plumbing and steel sprinkler
> pipe?
>
>
>
>
>
> John Irwin
>
> Critical System Solutions Sprinkler Construction Manager
>
> 813-618-2781 jir...@criticalsystemsolutions.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from a mobile device. Please forgive brevity, spelling errors and
> punctuation gaffes.
>
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Steve Leyton 
> Date: 9/30/16 3:33 PM (GMT-05:00)
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Pex
>
> No, but I’m a longtime committee member, forum subscriber and
> self-appointed surrogate for George L. Church, the late great Direwolf of
> the Forum.I’m pretty sure it’s not the intent of this list-server to
> host conversations that trash product technologies or widely accepted good
> practices.   I’m neither a plumber nor shareholder but have a 15+ year
> awareness of and understanding of the product and I’m acutely in touch with
> the fact that you can’t just “ban” or disparage a product that, in this
> case, arguably has a better service history than steel or CPVC.
>
>
>
> PEX has a limited range of applications and

RE: Stainless Steel pipe in sprinkler systems

2015-04-03 Thread Thomas Watt

Why not grooved? Victaulic has SS couplings and mechanical tees.
Just a thought...
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Re: Relocate sprinklers with drops RETORT

2015-02-08 Thread Thomas Watt

This would seem to be a matter of best practices. Do standards/codes
normally evolve from these?
IMHO this is being driven solely by manufacturers who would be better
served by creating a more robust product.
Is this a well documented issue? I would like to see some data.
On Feb 8, 2015 12:17 PM, mphe...@aerofire.com wrote:

 I'm on your side of the argument Chris. And in addition, to the comments
 about proper or more specifically IMPROPER handling of the sprinkler head,
 isn't it likely that the same fitter we trusted to install the new
 sprinkler would exercise the same care in handling the removal and
 replacement? If the sprinkler head isn't robust enough to tolerate removal
 and replacement, certainly removing the drop would resolve the issue.

 Mark at Aero
 602 820-7894

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Feb 7, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 wrote:
 
  Agree - here's my question where's the data or experience this is a
 problem?  For 15 years I was either the FPE for St. Paul or a sprinkler
 contractor.  In St. Paul I personally went to about 90% of the sprinkler
 activations and as a contractor we were small enough I knew of everything
 we did.  Not once did I have any reason to believe a false discharge was
 caused by a repositioned head whether removed from it's fitting or not.  I
 have to believe there were 10's of thousands of heads moved in this period.
 
  Chris Cahill, PE*
  Associate Fire Protection Engineer
  Burns  McDonnell
  Phone:  952.656.3652
  Fax:  952.229.2923
  ccah...@burnsmcd.com
  www.burnsmcd.com
  *Registered in: MN
 
 
  Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 8:59 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Relocate sprinklers with drops RETORT
 
  It sure seems like a waste of resources to me.
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
  On Feb 6, 2015, at 6:49 PM, rfletc...@aerofire.com 
 rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote:
 
  Like shipping, unpacking and installation only applies the proper and
 necessary stress for the sprinkler to operate as intended. Or maybe the
 engineering is so precise that the sprinkler can only stand the rigors of
 being threaded into a fitting once and then it's useless. Or maybe there
 are sprinkler manufacturers reps on the 13 committee that know how fragile
 and un-robust sprinklers are? Why would you build something could only be
 threaded in once? I'm glad they don't manufacture pipe or fittings.
 
  Ron fletcher Sent from my iPhone
 
  On Feb 6, 2015, at 4:43 PM, John Denhardt 
 jdenha...@stricklandfire.com wrote:
 
  Mark - well said. I totally agree.
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
  On Feb 6, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. 
 masorn...@kfi-eng.com wrote:
 
  My two cents is that it is not only the potential stress to the
 sprinkler from removal/replacement, but the potential for damage during
 handling.  This is especially true for QR sprinklers.
 
  From the EOR perspective, I have them replaced with new regardless of
 if it could be kept in a drop.
 
  I understand there may be differing perspectives when you are in a
 competitive bid that doesn't address the issue, or you have an owner
 griping about every dollar spent.
 
  Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
  Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
  http://www.kfiengineers.com
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
  accentf...@aol.com
  Sent: Friday, February 06, 2015 4:05 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Relocate sprinklers with drops RETORT
 
  Good afternoon, All:
 
  I thought a previous discussion revealed that currently IF the
 sprinkler stays in the RC, weld-o-let, fitting, etc., then it can be
 reinstalled if the sprinkler has not actually been removed from the
 original  fitting/outlet.
  I believe the concern was the amount of 'stress' applied to the
 sprinkler when trying to remove it - and possible damage resulting from
 the  'torque'.
  Previously, everyone seemed to be on board with this  approach.
 
  Cordially-
 
  Jerry
  _accentfire@aol.com_ (mailto:accentf...@aol.com)
 
  *Jerry D. Watts, SFPE
  President  Co-Founder
  ACCENT FIRE ENGINEERING INT'L. Ltd.** Santa Fe, New Mexico USA
  (800) 503.1961 nationwide
 
  *New Mexico Journeyman Sprinklerfitter Lic.  #08228
 
  **Licensed Fire Protection Engineers -  Architects/Inspectors/Fire
  Investigators:  AZ  CA  CO   NM  NV  NY  TX  UT  KS  MD  MS
 
 
 
  In a message dated 2/6/2015 2:04:42 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
 pe...@waynefire.com writes:
 
  Based on  the 2nd draft, this is what the 2016 language will say
  unless it is  Successfully NITMAM ed
 
  6.2.1.1*
  When a sprinkler is removed  from a fitting

Re: Relocate sprinklers with drops RETORT

2015-02-08 Thread Thomas Watt

  I have seen plenty of that also. Some careless, some reckless; mostly
clueless.
This practice is not limited to  used heads though. I have seen more
buckets of new heads than old. How many of these fail prematurely?
A smart fitter tries to minimize pulling heads when relocating drops
because he does not want to risk damaging it. Fitters aren't usually sent
out with 10 heads on an add 4, relocate 6, job... for example.
I still want to see stats. Is this a problem that requires a Standard
solution?

You can't legislate against stupidity.
   Jesse Ventura
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Re: Sprinkler cameras

2015-01-29 Thread Thomas Watt

They are pretty real looking. They tend to get installed closer than 6'0
to a real sprinkler though...
On Jan 29, 2015 1:08 PM, Michael Hill mi...@phoenixfp.net wrote:

 Is it still prohibited if installed in a properly protected space.

 I didn't even know these existed until this thread.

 Mike Hill

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Jan 29, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Fairchild, Jack
 jfairch...@ballinger-ae.com wrote:
 
  This is the type of camera Tom was referring to:
 http://www.discount-security-cameras.net/color420linefiresprinklercamera.aspx?gclid=CIKlzJPjucMCFYUjgQodZKUAMw
 
  The IBC says it's a no-no.
 
  Jack Fairchild
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
  Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:36 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Sprinkler cameras
 
  That only applies to components made to look like actual functioning
 components.  You can't put in a fake pull station or glue a sprinkler to a
 ceiling panel to make it look like sprinklers are present.
 
  Cameras used for flame/smoke are legit, listed fire system devices.
 901.4.5 has no applicability.
 
  Craig L. Prahl
  Fire Protection Group Lead
  CH2MHILL
  Lockwood Greene
  1500 International Drive
  Spartanburg, SC  29303
  Direct - 864.599.4102
  Fax - 864.599.8439
  CH2MHILL Extension  74102
  craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack
  Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 7:41 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Sprinkler cameras
 
  *901.4.5 Appearance of Equipment*. Any device that has the physical
 appearance of life safety or fire protection equipment but that does not
 perform that life safety or fire protection function shall be prohibited.
 
 
  Travis Mack, SET
  MFP Design, LLC
  2508 E Lodgepole Drive
  Gilbert, AZ 85298
  480-505-9271
  fax: 866-430-6107
  email:tm...@mfpdesign.com
 
  http://www.mfpdesign.com
  https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
  Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign
 
  On 1/28/2015 5:37 PM, Cahill, Christopher wrote:
  IFC early part of Chapter 9 I believe.  I don't have it handy to give
 you the exact section.
 
  Chris Cahill, PE*
  Associate Fire Protection Engineer
  Burns  McDonnell
  Phone:  952.656.3652
  Fax:  952.229.2923
  ccah...@burnsmcd.com
  www.burnsmcd.com
  *Registered in: MN
 
 
  Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work
  For
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
  Thomas Watt
  Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 5:46 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Sprinkler cameras
 
  I know these are prohibited by code/standard but cannot find the
 section to prove it.
  Little help please???
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Sprinkler cameras

2015-01-28 Thread Thomas Watt

I know these are prohibited by code/standard but cannot find the section to
prove it.
Little help please???
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RE: Sprinkler cameras

2015-01-28 Thread Thomas Watt

Thanks guys.
On Jan 28, 2015 7:37 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote:

 IFC early part of Chapter 9 I believe.  I don't have it handy to give you
 the exact section.

 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Associate Fire Protection Engineer
 Burns  McDonnell
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.com
 *Registered in: MN


 Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt
 Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 5:46 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Sprinkler cameras

 I know these are prohibited by code/standard but cannot find the section
 to prove it.
 Little help please???
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Re: Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?

2014-11-14 Thread Thomas Watt

The point I was trying to make is  the aerosolization of the antifreeze by
the velocity of escaping air and gas. Could this be the cause of the
explosion incidents? Has this scenario been tested?
On Nov 13, 2014 11:07 AM, mphe...@aerofire.com wrote:

 I would bet not. My opinion is that the largest cause of the water
 migration in an anti-freeze system is the result of thermal
 expansion/contraction of the volume of the fluid. If the pressure
 differential at the check valve is sufficient, dilution by migration should
 be minimal.

 Mark at Aero
 602 820-7894

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Nov 13, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. 
 masorn...@kfi-eng.com wrote:
 
  So as the N2 is absorbed by the antifreeze, is there any loss of volume
 (and subsequent reduction in pressure) in the piping that would allow water
 to migrate into the AF lines? If so, how much? Or does the 'Nitrogenated'
 AF solution simply expand to occupy the space held by the pure N2 under the
 same pressure?
 
  Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
 Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
 http://www.kfiengineers.com
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 mphe...@aerofire.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:32 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?
 
  I would bet the nitrogen never leaks out of the system, based on
 Henry's Law, as the nitrogen dissolves into solution under pressure. And by
 using nitrogen as the pressurizing agent, no increase in oxidation
 (corrosion) is imparted. I'm aware that nitrogen has been used to
 pressurize sprinkler piping for various reasons for at least thirty years.
  Mark at Aero
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark A.
 Sornsin, P.E.
  Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 9:01 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?
 
  C'mon, Todd.  WHY is he the missing link?
 
 
  ...because there is no way of know with certainty how much water will
 enter the AF piping after all of the N2 eventually leaks out. The presents
 the possibility of a freezable AF system. I suppose one could calculate the
 exact volume of the AF piping and measure the exact amount of AF pumped
 into the system prior to charging with N2, proving that the water couldn't
 migrate too far I would hope that approach was well documented prior to
 the freeze event and lawsuit.
 
  Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
 Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
 http://www.kfiengineers.com
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
  Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:13 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?
 
  No, but I think the guy that did it is the missing link.
 
  Todd G Williams, PE
  Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  Stonington, CT
  860-535-2080
  www.fpdc.com
 
 
  On Nov 12, 2014, at 8:58 PM, Thomas Watt 
 firesprinklerssaveli...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I recently encountered a scenario which I felt this group would enjoy
  chewing on.
  While draining an AF system to replace another leaking(@brass/steel
  interface) no-torque head adapter, huge bursts of mist, aerosolized
  glycerin mix, came out.
  It seems that this company has an s.o.p. of pumping af into dead end
  system(no purge) using a cheap pump which only permits about 50psi.
  They then jack the system pressure above static with compressed
 nitrogen.
  Has anybody ever seen this done before? Am I off base here or is this
  possibly the missing link?
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RE: Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?

2014-11-14 Thread Thomas Watt

I was hoping you would offer input Scott. I noticed your name in the report
as I read it. I just did not see any inference to escaping gases
contributing to the smaller droplet size which are shown to be
flammable/explosive. Perhaps because gas pockets are not supposed to be
there?
On Nov 14, 2014 12:48 PM, Scott A Futrell sco...@ffcdi.com wrote:

 In short, the theory was tested and it is combination of concentration of
 PG or Glycerin, type of sprinkler, orifice size, pressure, and distance to
 ignition source and is all available on the Fire Protection Research
 Foundation website.

 Scott

 (763) 425-1001x12 Office
 (612) 759-5556 Cell

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt
 Sent: Friday, November 14, 2014 1:35 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?

 The point I was trying to make is  the aerosolization of the antifreeze by
 the velocity of escaping air and gas. Could this be the cause of the
 explosion incidents? Has this scenario been tested?
 On Nov 13, 2014 11:07 AM, mphe...@aerofire.com wrote:


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Antifreeze-recipe for disaster?

2014-11-12 Thread Thomas Watt

I recently encountered a scenario which I felt this group would enjoy
chewing on.
While draining an AF system to replace another leaking(@brass/steel
interface) no-torque head adapter, huge bursts of mist, aerosolized
glycerin mix, came out.
It seems that this company has an s.o.p. of pumping af into dead end
system(no purge) using a cheap pump which only permits about 50psi. They
then jack the system pressure above static with compressed nitrogen.
Has anybody ever seen this done before? Am I off base here or is this
possibly the missing link?
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RE: Water Curtain Heads

2014-11-07 Thread Thomas Watt

Attachments can often contain viruses
On Nov 7, 2014 10:49 AM, Taylor, Galen galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov
wrote:

 Too bad about not permitting attachments. Links are not always possible,
 and attachments typically provide instant information that links frequently
 do not. The practice must have been abused in the past leading to their
 prohibition.

 Have a great weekend everyone.

 Galen Taylor
 County of Los Angeles Fire Department
 Fire Prevention Engineering
 323-890-4339
 galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov

 Ensuring Public Safety Through the Built Environment


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 mphe...@aerofire.com
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:05 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Water Curtain Heads

 Hi Galen,
 I believe you can post a link but not an attachment.  Can someone confirm
 this.
 Mark at Aero

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Taylor, Galen
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 9:57 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Water Curtain Heads

 Trying one more time to send Evaluation Report ...

 Galen Taylor
 County of Los Angeles Fire Department
 Fire Prevention Engineering
 323-890-4339
 galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov

 Ensuring Public Safety Through the Built Environment


 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Taylor, Galen
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 8:51 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Water Curtain Heads

 The attached Evaluation Report from ICC Evaluation Service may be useful.

 Galen Taylor
 County of Los Angeles Fire Department
 Fire Prevention Engineering
 323-890-4339
 galen.tay...@fire.lacounty.gov

 Ensuring Public Safety Through the Built Environment

 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Sorrell
 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:07 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Water Curtain Heads

 When calculating the design area which would include heads for a water
 curtain, are the heads on both sides of the protected windows Included in
 the calculations or are you allowed to only calculate one side of the
 protected glass.


 Stephen J. Sorrell, CET
 NICET# 77901 Level III
 E mail: ssorr...@performancefire.commailto:ssorr...@performancefire.com

 Performance Fire Protection, LLC
 Corporate Office
 179 Gasoline Alley -  PO Box 4510
 Mooresville, NC 28117
 Phone: 704-663-1664  Fax: 704-663-1652
 Cell : 704-309-1242

 Web: www.performancefire.comhttp://www.performancefire.com
 Licensed in NC, SC, VA, TN, GA, AL

 Performance on Every Level.

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Re: plain end fittings

2014-11-05 Thread Thomas Watt

Victaulic?
On Nov 5, 2014 9:01 AM, Todd - Work t...@fpdc.com wrote:

 Does anyone make a listed plain end fitting for 1-1/2 pipe? I am working
 on a retrofit where we have to deal with some 1-1/2 pipe that is connected
 to a main that is partially buried in a wall.

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
 860-535-2080 (ofc)
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de-zincification

2014-04-17 Thread Thomas Watt

http://www.meaforensic.com/forensic-engineering-expert-witness/blog/bid/87801/Beware-of-Cheaters-Brass-Cheater-Failures-in-Fire-Protection-Systems

This article describes a phenomenon where, basically, zinc is leeched from
brass leaving behind a weak copper which is prone to failure.
My question is...why would this not affect sprinklers?
Thanks guys...
Thomas
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Sprinkler Save

2014-03-21 Thread Thomas Watt

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/surveillance-video-released-in-las-vegas-pet-shop-arson-case/

Fire officials credited sprinklers with dousing flames at the shop until
firefighters arrived and rescued all the puppies from their cages.
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Puppies saved from Vegas fire

2014-03-18 Thread Thomas Watt

Owner sets her Pet Store full of Puppies on Fire for Insurance Scam...too
Bad she Forgot that it was Equipped with Sprinklers...and cameras.
Read more at
http://www.surenews.com/crime/owner-sets-her-pet-store-full-of-puppies-on-fire-for-insurance-scamtoo-bad-she-forgot-that-it-was-equipped-with-sprinklers-.htm#TwCKqyiIYAYHiqYL.99

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pet-shop-owner-jailed-after-puppies-saved-from-las-vegas-arson/
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Re: Fire Suppression System Deaths

2014-01-16 Thread Thomas Watt

I believe the incident was at Eglin AFB. Not their first false trip.
Another in 2012.  I heard there was welding going on...


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Cahill, Christopher
ccah...@burnsmcd.comwrote:

 We're getting word there have been two different incidents where a fire
 suppression system caused a death.  Not a fire where the suppression system
 failed but there was no fire and the system operation was somehow
 complicit.  One seems to be a high expansion foam system, the other is
 unknown. Don't know the manner the HEF played, suffocate, fell trying to
 leave and not being able to see, something else and HEF was a coincidence?
 Ya'll hearing anything? That's about all I know, well...don't know.

 Chris Cahill, PE*
 Associate Fire Protection Engineer
 Burns  McDonnell
 8201 Norman Center Drive
 Bloomington, MN 55437
 Phone:  952.656.3652
 Fax:  952.229.2923
 ccah...@burnsmcd.commailto:ccah...@burnsmcd.com
 www.burnsmcd.comhttp://www.burnsmcd.com/

 Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
 *Registered in: MN




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County continues investigation into fire sprinklers, voluntary recall

2013-10-14 Thread Thomas Watt

http://www.islandpacket.com/2013/10/13/2736723/county-continues-investigation.html
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Re: County continues investigation into fire sprinklers, voluntary recall

2013-10-14 Thread Thomas Watt

In the midst of this event is a paradox. A head recalled for not activating
apparently activated for no apparent reason. A concealed head which tends
to rule out tampering or accidental damage. Are the o-rings swelling to the
point that they are pushing the seat out? I have seen Centrals weep from
the seats.

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Re: Flow switch for 6 sch80

2013-09-20 Thread Thomas Watt

Thanks Mike and Mike. The question was asked on a fitters forum I started
some years ago. I asked for more info but still have not received a
response. The question had me scratching my head . Not our typical riser
material.

I thought I was drilling 80 one time until we discovered a stainless steel
bearing embedded in the pipe wall was eating up the hole saws.


On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Mike Cabral cabralm...@rocketmail.comwrote:

 Can you use a pressure switch to detect a drop in pressure rather than a
 vain type flow switch? If there is a jockey pump and therefore a steady
 system pressure you should be able to detect the pressure drop from static
 pressure to residual pressure.

 Potter makes a pressure switch with a pneumatic retard device that could
 also compensate for some short term pressure variations.

 Mike C

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Sep 19, 2013, at 10:07 AM, Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com wrote:

  Thomas,
 
  I do not believe that anyone makes a flowswitch for schedule 80 pipe
 that is Listed for use on fire sprinkler systems. Can you replace a spool
 piece with schedule 40 pipe?
 
  Before anyone suggests, no you cannot just trim the paddle of a standard
 flowswitch.
 
  What type of facility is it that is using sched 80?
 
  Regards,
 
  mike
 
  Mike Henke CET
  Sprinkler Product Manager
  Potter Electric Signal Co.
  www.pottersignal.com
  314-595-6740 Direct
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Watt
  Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:24 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Flow switch for 6 sch80
 
  Can't seem to find it. Anyone?
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Flow switch for 6 sch80

2013-09-19 Thread Thomas Watt

Can't seem to find it. Anyone?
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Re: removing sprinkler on drop

2013-09-05 Thread Thomas Watt

Im with Greg. I have reinstalled thousands of heads without issue. What is
the justification for this requirement?


On Thursday, September 5, 2013, Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com wrote:
 its ALL ridiculous if you ask me
 it is a waste of resources


 On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 7:53 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com
wrote:

 There is wording somewhere that supports NOT...

 -Original Message-
 From: Todd - Work [mailto:t...@fpdc.com]
 Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 7:48 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: removing sprinkler on drop

 I am working on a project where we have to add heads above an existing
 ceiling on an existing system. The pendant heads are fed on swing joints.
 My
 plan is to have them removes the drops (with sprinkler in them) replace
the
 1 elbow with a tee and re-install the drops. The question came up about
 replacing the pendant heads. They were not removed from the pipe but the
 pipe with head was removed from the system. I never thought about this
 before and can see arguments on both sides. Replace the pendants or not?

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 www.fpdc.com
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 --
 Greg McGahan
 Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533
 850-937-1850
 fax 850-937-1852
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RE: Trash Transfer Station

2013-08-10 Thread Thomas Watt

How does this happen?  Is the piv not monitored?  Close valve,  receive
trouble at panel. Open valve,  clear trouble. Move on. Simple right?
On Aug 10, 2013 1:31 PM, Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net wrote:

 Oops..   typo.
 Yes, and also would like to share the cause or the organic storage (also
 barged to composting facility in NJ) building burning to the ground this
 past spring.  Unofficially told that the testing company left the isolation
 piv closed that feeds that building.  Still in litigation.  Couldn't get
 in,
 very curious as to what hazard they used.
 TD

 Tom,

 Just a clarification...I assume you mean to type 0.60/2000.  And the
 placard
 indicated they were using an adjustment for a dry system, which in my book
 is a 30% design areas increase, bringing the system design to 0.60/2600
 ft2.  Of course the pump wasn't designed for this, or even the 0.60/2000,
 but was certainly adequate to control the fire that occurred with 8 heads
 operating at a minimum of 60 gpm.

 I think that it would be useful to capture actual system performance in
 these challenging storage fires, to provide feedback to the protection
 committee.

 Dwight






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Re: Mechanical Tees

2013-07-20 Thread Thomas Watt

I have never done such a thing. Beyond unethical. I have drained a drop and
found a coupon sitting on top. Wondered why it took so long...
On Jul 19, 2013 3:19 PM, ampeck amp...@me.com wrote:

 And not to mention any fitter that works a lot of renovations has wired
 bundles of different size of coupons in case he looses one.

 You can't tell me that doesn't happen lol I've seen foremans trucks with
 those many times.

 On Jul 20, 2013, at 12:53 AM, Scott A Futrell sco...@ffcdi.com wrote:

  Like that form gets filled out properly and thoroughly.
 
  Did I hit send?
 
  Scott
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
  Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:51 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Mechanical Tees
 
  That's why the Above Ground Test Certificate has the section about a
 coupon recovery program.
 
 
  On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Morey, Mike mo...@bmwc.com wrote:
 
  But that doesn't keep someone from dropping the coupon inside the pipe
  creating a potential obstruction.
 
 
 
  Mike Morey, SET, CFPS
  Sprinkler Designer
  BMW Constructors, Inc.
  O: 317.651.0596 | C: 317.586.8111
  www.bmwc.com http://www.bmwc.com/
 
 
  
 
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org on behalf of
  mphe...@aerofire.com
  Sent: Fri 7/19/2013 1:28 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Mechanical Tees
 
 
 
  Of all the brands of Mech Tees we have in stock, none of them can
  physically be installed on a piece of pipe WITHOUT a hole in it. There
  is a centering ring on the fitting that must install INTO the hole to
  allow the bolt pads to close.
  Mark at Aero
 
 
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  er.org
 
 
 
 
  --
  Ron Greenman
  Instructor
  Fire Protection Engineering Technology
  Bates Technical College
  1101 So. Yakima Ave.
  Tacoma, WA 98405
 
  rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu
 
  http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
 
  253.680.7346
  253.576.9700 (cell)
 
  Member:
  ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC
 
  They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
 Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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Re: Building found full of these

2013-07-12 Thread Thomas Watt

Are you sure they are Omegas?  I believe RASCO made a very similar head.
On Jul 12, 2013 6:03 PM, ampeck amp...@me.com wrote:

 I forgot to send this awhile back but I had a very interesting find a few
 weeks back.

 But Omega was first recalled middle to end of the 90's correct? Well this
 building here in Cambodia is a 22 floor building and was built in 2005.

 As the first thing I always do when I enter a building is look up and went
 huh those are interesting heads, I should get a better look. The ceiling
 at the entrance is about 20 foot so I couldn't quite make them out. I
 forgot and walked on. Went into an office with a lower ceiling and was
 chatting with a guy until I just happened to look up again. My jaw just
 dropped to the floor. Omega heads.

 After that I ran around the building checking everywhere I could and yep
 all Omega.

 Either these were from a large batch of unused heads someone bought cheap
 after the recall that were sitting in a Asian warehouse collecting dust or
 god forbid removed heads from the States and sold over here. Get paid to
 remove them and install new and then sell the old overseas, great marketing
 idea.

 I don't know if maybe one of their manufacturing plants or warehouses were
 over here in south east asia but seems suspicious to me.
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RE: George L. Church, Jr.

2013-06-27 Thread Thomas Watt

I never met George. I will however miss him more than most of the people
that I have met. Happy trails sprinklerman...
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Reclaimed water and sprinkler systems

2013-05-10 Thread Thomas Watt

Scenario: Retro-fit of existing medical building (built in 1980's).
Existing screwed pipe with downward facing drops torn out. New pipe with
grooved 1 1/2 w/welded outlets feeding drop-downs w/flex-heads nearly 1/2
complete.

Fire Marshal informs us that sprinkler system is supplied by reclaimed
water which requires return bends...??? I have not come across this problem
before. This is not the same as a pond or reservoir, etc... Seems to me if
it doesn't clog lawn sprinklers, it surely wont clog ours. Right???

I would however like to inform this particular Superintendent that all the
pipe needs to be painted purple and it is not in our contract. BWAHAHAHA

Thomas Watt
Lifeline Fire Protection
Minneola, FL
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Fwd: Reclaimed water and sprinkler systems

2013-05-10 Thread Thomas Watt

Scenario: Retro-fit of existing medical building (built in 1980's).
Existing screwed pipe with downward facing drops torn out. New pipe with
grooved 1 1/2 w/welded outlets feeding drop-downs w/flex-heads nearly 1/2
complete.

Fire Marshal informs us that sprinkler system is supplied by reclaimed
water which requires return bends...??? I have not come across this problem
before. This is not the same as a pond or reservoir, etc... Seems to me if
it doesn't clog lawn sprinklers, it surely wont clog ours. Right???

I would however like to inform this particular Superintendent that all the
pipe needs to be painted purple and it is not in our contract. BWAHAHAHA

Thomas Watt
Lifeline Fire Protection
Minneola, FL
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Re: Reclaimed water and sprinkler systems

2013-05-10 Thread Thomas Watt

It seems as if this would be a non-issue if the following code
were followed when originally accepted. How far back does this
requirement go?
NFPA 13 – 2013 Edition
• 23.2.1 Water supplies for sprinkler systems shall be
one of the following or any combination:
(g) A source of recycled or  reclaimed water where the
building owner (or their agent) has analyzed the source
of the water and the treatment process (if any) that the
water undergoes before made available to the sprinkler
system and determined that any materials, chemicals or
contaminants in the water will not be detrimental to
the components of  the sprinkler system it comes in
contact with.
A.23.2.1(g) In an eﬀort to help comply with eﬀorts for sustainable and
renewable building construction, some engineers and architects have
suggested the use of reclaimed or recycled water to use in ﬁre sprinkler
systems rather than the potable water typically used from the public water
supply. While this eﬀort has some merit, there is concern about the quality
of the water from the recycled and reclaimed systems. The capture of
rainwater is generally not considered a problem since NFPA 13 has long
allowed the use of open lakes, rivers and ponds, which are nothing more
than open collections of rainwater and melted snow. But other systems that
are recycling water that has been used in some industrial or other process
might have contaminants that are combustible, or they might be detrimental
to the sprinkler system by preventing it from working or accelerating
corrosion. Recycled or reclaimed water should never be used in a sprinkler
system until an analysis of what contaminants might be in the water has
determined that nothing will be detrimental to sprinkler system performance
or the expected reasonable life of the sprinkler system. When such an
analysis is completed successfully the information should be transmitted to
the sprinkler contractor through the use of the Owner’s Certiﬁcate required
by section 4.3.


On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.comwrote:

 We've done a couple systems connected to reclaimed.   Do not agree that
 it is arbitrarily required to furnish return bends - reclaimed isn't
 necessarily adulterated with sediment or stuff that can fall out, but it
 could be.  If the AHJ was insistent, maybe a strainer would appease
 them, but the overall quality of reclaimed water is controlled by the
 water purveyor.  You may want to contact them about the level of
 suspended solids or other adulterants.

 Steve Leyton




 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 Thomas Watt
 Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 9:05 AM
 To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Fwd: Reclaimed water and sprinkler systems

 Scenario: Retro-fit of existing medical building (built in 1980's).
 Existing screwed pipe with downward facing drops torn out. New pipe with
 grooved 1 1/2 w/welded outlets feeding drop-downs w/flex-heads nearly
 1/2 complete.

 Fire Marshal informs us that sprinkler system is supplied by reclaimed
 water which requires return bends...??? I have not come across this
 problem before. This is not the same as a pond or reservoir, etc...
 Seems to me if it doesn't clog lawn sprinklers, it surely wont clog
 ours. Right???

 I would however like to inform this particular Superintendent that all
 the pipe needs to be painted purple and it is not in our contract.
 BWAHAHAHA

 Thomas Watt
 Lifeline Fire Protection
 Minneola, FL
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Re: Old style deflector

2013-05-01 Thread Thomas Watt

Someone in this group is likely to have the answer and an example to prove
it.
https://www.facebook.com/Collecting.Old.Fire.Sprinkler.Heads


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:

 Did they make heads for regular use with the old small deflector in 1954?

 Todd G Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, CT
 860-535-2080
 www.fpdc.com

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Re: Flow switch problem

2013-03-04 Thread Thomas Watt

Just give me the drawings and I will make it happen.I don't want to waste
water any more than anyone else.

North Dakota, I here you calling.
You aren't speaking in sprinkler though.
Pipe and valves, I understand so...

 Thomas Watt

Pipefitter Extraordinaire
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Re: Looking for ideas- Fire Protection Engineering presentations

2013-02-11 Thread Thomas Watt

scot, you are my choice as our representative in congress. Such an eloquent
and intelligent response truly moves me. Honestly, I enjoy all of your
posts. To most, I am just a guy that hangs the pipe. In reality, I feel
that life safety is my life's calling. I truly care whether my work is
going to save lives.
Cecil, you are awesome too. Your honest enthusiasm gives me hope that we
can eventually put sprinklers everywhere that they belong. Your students
must feel as I do when you are done with them. My grandfather, Hank Crain,
instilled a sense of virtue associated with our profession that struck me
deeply. I try to pass this on to every helper that I touch.
On topic, I agree with the ideas of current events tied to past events then
leading into real life. Reality vs. media inconceptions. Kids today are
very smart and debunking myths is a key to gaining their confidence.

PS: Anyone that knows my grandpa please message me. He kept drawing until a
couple of years ago because of finances, lost my grandmother last year. He
could definitely use some cheering up. I believe he was instrumental in
AFSA back in the day.
Henry (Hank) Crain Jr., Orlando Automatic, (Disney Magic Kingdom)

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C]
johnson...@mail.nih.gov wrote:

The following link is a good resource to provide. It identifies college
programs of all sorts, salary facts, a guide to scholarships, etc.

http://careers.sfpe.org/

Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Contractor)
Office of Research Services
National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487

Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time

-Original Message-
From: Reza Esmaeili [mailto:rezaesmaeili...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 1:39 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Looking for ideas- Fire Protection Engineering presentations

Hi My friend!How are you?I have plenty of fire protection videos in my
Dropbox, you can join my Dropbox clicking this link (http://db.tt/MffeCiji)
you can enjoy watching and downloading them, some of them are very useful
for training purposes, I suggest you first download the below video which
is explaining different kinds of sprinkler systems.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6nxtz30wj52sq7/Sprinkler%20Systems%20Introduction-Wormald.mpg
I have also made a Powerpoint presentation myself, it's simple but worth
downloading!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6phdlxj9ipc36d7/bVTjzWQYKR/Fire%20Extinguishing%20Systems%20Seminar.ppt
Warm Regards,Reza EsmaeiliSarian System Novinwww.sarian.ir

--- On Tue, 2/5/13, craig.pr...@ch2m.com craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Subject: Looking for ideas- Fire Protection Engineering presentations
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Date: Tuesday, February 5, 2013, 6:04 PM

We have Engineers Week coming up in a couple of weeks and our industry has
never had any representation for Fire Protection.

I was wondering if anyone has done one of these type of presentations and
had anything to use as a go-by?

Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension 74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com

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Re: Warranty - Listing

2013-02-11 Thread Thomas Watt

Sounds to me like American manufacturers need to step up to the plate and
provide what the industry requires. A North American listing is what it
is.. The climate is changing, and Malaysian fittings are simply not as good
as anything produced in N.A. or even China. Companies are protecting
themselves from inferior products...what is wrong with that.
What we need is a good old Grinnel style factory in North Dakota.
Fantasy???

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Matthew J. Willis m...@keyfps.com wrote:

But Tom's statement may still remain true. Warrantees may be affected, and
some listings will remain. We see the same with a brand of bracing
materials
and using their rings. Don't even mention a recessed escutcheon.
A quick UL listing search of grooved fittings had the following on the
certification: (Name replaced to protect me.)

The following fittings are intended for use with BRAND X. Listed rubber
gasketed fittings.

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 12:21 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Domestic Materials

historically, that was a cold fact. The Installation TC made a change in
the 2010 ed on Groove Joining Methods (6.5.3) and then clarified further in
the 2013 ed. They basically are saying devices listed to a standardized
groove specification shall be considered compatible (2013 ed). The annex
says: It is not the intent to require a listed combination of couplings,
fittings, or valves. (2010 ed)

Roland

On Feb 5, 2013, at 5:35 AM, Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net wrote:

A note of caution regarding mixing manufacturers.
Warrantees may not cover a Vic elbow with an Anvil coupling for example.
TD

I have a project that I'm designing that requires domestic materials.
I've looked at Viking, TYCO, GruvLok, Victaulic, and a few others.
None of them say where they were made. Does anyone know who makes
domestic grooved products? How about short pattern stuff?

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET III
208-318-3057
www.firebyknight.com

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Re: Drip Pan over switch gear

2013-01-18 Thread Thomas Watt

Wow. Maybe just install a mop sink under it. But then what size drain? Oh
yeah, Drain pipe might leak. Need another under that. What is the system
capacity? DOH
Are GCs and AHJs breeding now? No offense to sane/intelligent list members
:)

On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 1:46 PM, rfletc...@aerofire.com wrote:

 Anyone ever hear of design requirement for drip pans? We have GC telling
 us that it needs to be deeper so it doesn't overflow. We installed an open
 ended pan fastened to the wall at the high end  and pitching down at about
 30 degrees to a couple feet out in front of the gear. It's as if they think
 it should be four sided and hold water, but then how much must it hold
 etc...

 Ron Fletcher
 Aero Phoneix

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Re: black sch 40 painted vs galv schedule 10

2012-09-20 Thread Thomas Watt

Greg, can I get a little more info please? This has piqued my interest and
led to more questions. What type of pipe is in there now? How old is it?
What type of tunnel? How long is the run? Heated/conditioned at all?
If tunnel is underground can DI be used, (by code I mean) ???

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.comwrote:

We have an UG tunnel with an existing 8 bulk main that is showing signs of
significant corrosion - currently black pipe - unpainted.

We recommended replacing the pipe with galv sch 10 - a competitor has
recommended using blk shc 40 and painting it as being a better choice for
corrosion protection. We disagree but would like some other input?

The tunnel does have standing water on the floor most of the time so it is
always damp.

Thanks,
Greg

--
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC http://www.livingwaterfp.com
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
fax 850-937-1852
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Re: Hangers serving pendents over 100psi

2012-09-18 Thread Thomas Watt

Is an additional hanger required in the 20 of pipe mentioned? Certainly.
But, these 2 hangers do not need to be less than 2 feet apart. They can be
spread apart. Half the max allowable distance? end of line hanger
spacing/pipe size would not apply once that armover is hung, right?
As for the hanger assembly limiting the upward movement, I never noticed
this discrepancy before. Thanks for pointing that out. I was taught to
always have my rods 1/4 inch from pipe on all armovers and ends of line.
Even before cpvc made the issue commonplace. I rarely ever saw those
hangers with the foot-type thing that covers the end of the rod. They
should have been mandated. Lots of damage done to cpvc pipe by sharp rod
ends, stiff-rodding, vibration, expansion, etc But that is another
thread in itself.

Thomas
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Re: Planetarium dome

2012-07-10 Thread Thomas Watt

Why not protect from floor level?

Fully Automatic Fire Seeking  Extinguishing System developed by Unifire
AB, Tokyo Bosai Setsubi and Rosenbauer International. Works without human
intervention to find a fire and extinguish it in seconds. Applications
include tunnels, aircraft hangars, underground spaces, warehouses, airport
halls, historical buildings and much more.  ..

...and for the guy who has to have all the best toys...

The Unifire Anti-Pirate Water Cannon System (APWCS) is a network of
high-tech, non-lethal, remote-controlled, stainless steel water cannons
that can be controlled safely from the bridge and/or other safe area(s) of
a ship or yacht to protect against pirates. The Unifire Force series,
high-pressure, high-volume water cannons are effective up to 90 meters away
from the ship and can knock pirates off their feet and flood their boat
very rapidly.




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Re: Rounding off {Squaring off?}

2012-04-25 Thread Thomas Watt

Thanks Todd.

I was really thinking along these lines. When calc'ing coverage, density
and such...we measure linearly right?. And thus, we measure squares of
coverage. However, the sprinkler generally throws in a circular pattern.
What percentage of a circle lies outside the box once it is drawn inside of
a circle? I flunked out of Bus. Calc... Might point being, we are proving
and being rejected for a few pounds here;gpms there; by what is proven in
the box. Not many bucket tests going on. Do we conservatively give away
this advantage because squares are easier to deal with mathematically?
Also, aren't most sprinklers conservatively rated. I have seen a standard
head throw well beyond 7'6 or 9'-0 for that matter. Oh, and this just in,
{they never stop these days...} As the water stream hits the deflector and
is deflected outwards, wouldn't a circular shadow be formed directly under
each head? This would also subtract another percentile from what is
actually in the box I guess that would be a negative though.

This is all rhetorical and is just an exercise in learning and creative
thinking.
Teach your kids to read. Teach your kids to question everything they read.
Teach them to question everything... George Carlin.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Bruce Verhei bver...@comcast.net wrote:

I've read in the past that this fell in the not well understood effect
category when engineers have desired to model how sprinklers actually work.
This seems to be difficult. They say something that ends with but
sprinklers installed and maintained to standards have a remarkable record
of controlling fires in buildings.

I want to buy one of the square heads. Are the threads square too?

Bruce

Sent from my Motorola ATRIX™ 4G on ATT

-Original message-
From: Thomas Watt firesprinklerssaveli...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tue, Apr 24, 2012 13:05:01 GMT+00:00
Subject: Rounding off {Squaring off?}

I had a brain-fart and came up with this question for the forum. Especially
the engineers. Since sprinklers, in general, throw in a circular pattern,
and we calc the sprinklers as squares, there is always overlap so we are by
default miscalculating a percentage of the density. Has anyone ever
calculated the safety factor effect by ignoring the arcs outside the
square???

Thomas
A+ fitter/Foreman
No work in Orlando, FL area
Willing to relocate
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Rounding off {Squaring off?}

2012-04-24 Thread Thomas Watt

I had a brain-fart and came up with this question for the forum. Especially
the engineers.  Since sprinklers, in general, throw in a circular pattern,
and we calc the sprinklers as squares, there is always overlap so we are by
default miscalculating a percentage of the density. Has anyone ever
calculated the safety factor effect by ignoring the arcs outside the
square???

Thomas
A+ fitter/Foreman
No work in Orlando, FL area
Willing to relocate
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Re: Distance to sprinklers

2012-04-24 Thread Thomas Watt

http://www.firesprinkler.org/techservices/articles/obstructions.html

Interesting article with a bit of history.

Thomas

On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:20 AM, A.P.Silva silva...@shaw.ca wrote:

 I have always taken for granted that distances from sprinklers to
 obstructions and heat sources, given in NFPA, were measured from the
 deflector. And this applied to all types of sprinklers, uprights, pendents
 and sidewalls. Am I correct?

 If that is correct, can someone refer me to a NFPA section that states it,
 or says otherwise?

 Thanks, Tony

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Re: NFPA 25 - inspection above suspended ceiling

2012-04-18 Thread Thomas Watt

I have seen pipe grooved so deep you could see light through it when you
cover the end. I  see the Mechanical guys using a little tape measure to
check their grooves but never have seen Sprinklermen check their work this
way. In any case. a too deep groove is usually obvious when fitting the
pipe.

 Thomas
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Re: Steel sprinkler pipe corrosion

2012-01-13 Thread Thomas Watt

The gull would simply burp/regurgitate the tablets or expel (fart) out the
gas produced. It is impossible to blow up a gull (or any other animal)
using Alka-Seltzer, it's an urban legend.

However, one of the known warning signs of certain
psychopathologieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathology,
including antisocial personality
disorderhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder,
also known as psychopathic personality disorder, is a history of torturing
pets and small animals, a behavior known as
zoosadismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoosadism.
According to the *New York Timeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times
*, the FBI has found that a history of cruelty to animals is one of the
traits that regularly appears in its computer records of serial
rapistshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape
 and murderers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer, and the
standard diagnostic and treatment manual for psychiatric and emotional
disorders lists cruelty to animals a diagnostic criterion for conduct
disorders 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder.[61]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty_to_animals#cite_note-aggression-v-animals-60
 A survey of psychiatric patients who had repeatedly tortured dogs and
cats found all of them had high levels of aggression toward people as well,
including one patient who had murdered a young
boy.[61]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty_to_animals#cite_note-aggression-v-animals-60
 Robert K. Ressler, an agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation's
behavioral sciences unit, studied serial killers and noted,Murderers like
this (Jeffrey Dahmer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer) very
often start out by killing and torturing animals as
kids.[62]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty_to_animals#cite_note-61

Cruelty to animals is one of the three components of the Macdonald
triadhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macdonald_triad,
indicators of violent antisocial behavior in children and adolescents.
According to the studies used to form this model, cruelty to animals is a
common (but not universal) behavior in children and adolescents who grow up
to become serial killers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer and
other violent criminals.

It has also been found that children who are cruel to animals have often
witnessed or been victims of abuse
themselves.[63]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty_to_animals#cite_note-62
In
two separate studies cited by the Humane Society of the United States
roughly one-third of families suffering from domestic abuse indicated that
at least one child had hurt or killed a
pet.[64]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruelty_to_animals#cite_note-63


On the technical side, I wonder if a device attached to a sprinkler system
could, upon activation, drop an alka-seltzer or two in order to gain 1-2
psi in a hurry. Of course, my systems don't leak so I wouldn't need such a
device...hehe...maybe it could drop MIC preventative tablets, etc...


Thomas



On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:08 AM, James McHugh jmch...@testandrain.comwrote:

 Alka Seltzer does wonders for bird MGT. Seagulls are rats with wings


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Re: AutoSPRINK

2011-12-21 Thread Thomas Watt

Sweet!!!  The last company Christmas present I received was a pair of nail
clippers with the company logo.

Merry Christmas everybody!!!


Thomas Watt, Fitter Extraordinaire


On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 8:00 AM, Brian Harris bhar...@bvssystemsinc.comwrote:

 Just bought our first seat of AutoSPRINK and was interested to see if
 there are any users in the Charlotte NC area?

 Brian Harris, CET
 BVS Systems Inc.
 18637 K Northline Drive
 Cornelius, NC 28031
 Phone: 704.896.9989
 Fax: 704.896.1935

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Re: 3/4 Copper Pipe in Light Hazard Occupancy

2011-10-21 Thread Thomas Watt

George,

If you are not familiar with Xpress copper fittings, let me tell you, they
are great!!!  We did a church a couple of years ago using this method. One
leak!!!
No fire, flux, solder, etc= No Hot-work permits.
Sizes:  1/2- 4
They would be great for a retro-fit. The press-fit tool and jaws are a bit
pricey but would be a good investment if you foresee more copper work in the
future. Or they could possibly be rented.



http://www.elkhartproducts.com/xPress/xPress.cfm

Sincerely, Thomas
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Re: Sidewall below garage doors

2011-09-24 Thread Thomas Watt

September 20, 2011|By Anika Myers Palm, Orlando Sentinel

A malfunctioning Orange County fire truck was at the center of a fire at a
county-owned garage this morning, Orange County Fire Rescue has confirmed.

.the sprinkler system had helped to contain most of the blaze,


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-09-20/news/os-fire-truck-caught-fire-20110920_1_fire-alarm-system-orange-county-fire-rescue-sprinkler-system
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Re: Pool areas

2011-09-16 Thread Thomas Watt

*
There are other options for heads. I have found teflon coatings to be a bit
fragile.
Stainless hangers may be a bit overkill in the pool area. BUT, not at all in
the pump room. Wax heads, SS hangers and Galv. Sch. 40 {at least} within
that space.

TY-B  TY-FRB*
Stainless Steel, SMO, and Titanium
Alternate Materials Of Construction

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 4:13 PM, gerald.osbo...@wolseleyinc.ca wrote:

 Yes, also for the sprinkler heads i would use the Victaulic with Nickel
 Teflon coating.


 Gerald Osborne
 Wolseley Canada
 Commercial Business Group
 Outside Sales
 Mobile: (902) 221-5741

 - Original Message -
 From: Bobby Gillett [mailto:gillet...@keyfireprotection.com]
 Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 04:10 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Pool areas

 Would zinc plated/galvanized work if they painted the hangers with the
 pipe?

 Bobby Gillett
 Sr. Project Manager
 Key Fire Protection, Inc.
 (731) 424-0130 office  (731) 424-9285 fax
 (731) 267-4853 cell
 www.keyfireprotection.com



 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby
 Gillett
 Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 3:05 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Pool areas

 The engineer has decided to go with black pipe (painted by others)
 corrosion
 resistant sprinklers and all stainless hanger assemblies.
 Can some offer places to get stainless beam clamps and hanger rings?

 Bobby Gillett
 Sr. Project Manager
 Key Fire Protection, Inc.
 (731) 424-0130 office  (731) 424-9285 fax
 (731) 267-4853 cell
 www.keyfireprotection.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 9:02 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Pool areas

 I did a hotel years a ago where the sprinklers were omitted from the pool
 area but we did provide sprinklers in the mechanical room where the filters
 and pumps were located.

 You didn't say if this was at a school or hotel or aquatic park or what the
 conditions were.  That makes a difference.

 It could be an A-3 or A-4 occupancy, hard to tell since the particulars
 weren't given.  See IBC 2006 903.2.1.3 for A-3 and 903.2.1.4 for A-4
 occupancy fire protection requirements.

 There are a few other questions needing answers before anyone can say yes
 or
 no to sprinklers.  But the environment isn't a player in the decision.
 We've had corrosive environments where the sprinklers and piping and all
 appurtenances had to be Stainless.  Expensive yes, but there was no other
 material that would survive.



 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bobby
 Gillett
 Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 9:41 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Pool areas

 The following question came from a local engineer. Can you please provide
 feedback so I can provide him with the best response?



 We have a job that includes an inclosed, indoor chlorine swimming pool.
 The space is about 12000 sq ft of a 50,000 sq ft total building.  The
 architect and fire marshal are recommending we omit the sprinklers in the
 pool area but we are leery of that.  What has your experience been with
 exposed sprinklers in such an environment?  I cannot use plastic piping
 since there is no ceiling.  Any suggestions?  



 Thank you,



 Bobby Gillett

 Sr. Project Manager

 Key Fire Protection, Inc.

 (731) 424-0130 office  (731) 424-9285 fax

 (731) 267-4853 cell

  mailto:bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com
 bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com







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Re: Pool sprinklers

2011-09-09 Thread Thomas Watt

Don;t forget the escutcheons. Standard types will rust away very quickly
from the chlorine gas accumulating at the ceiling. Pool pump rooms are even
worse. Galv. pipe and fittings, stainless heads, rod
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Re: Pool sprinklers

2011-09-09 Thread Thomas Watt

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Craig,

 As I said I'm in agreement with that point of view. These changes that
 occur and are allowed to stand are housekeeping issues that need to be
 addressed by the FD. My points in bringing up the story was that it's bad
 juju and an interesting post design situation. Sorry if it sounded like I
 was playing the what if game and suggesting design had to be against all
 possibilities. I'd never suggest that.My imagination is too good. I was
 once
 up a Cheyenne Mountain and one of the guys I was talking to said the
 facility had been designed to withstand a five megaton direct hit. I
 wondered about a 5.5 megaton bomb.

 On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 6:46 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:

  Ron,
 
  But we're talking apples and oranges in this situation.  This is a clear
  change of occupancy which before a Cof O is isued should be required to
 be
  in compliance with applicable codes for the new occupancy.  Just because
 a
  buikding could change doesn't mean that a designer must consider all
  possible occupancy classifications that someone years in the future might
  try to utilize.
 
  I don't even see any relavency to the topic of whether a pool area should
  be protected or not.
 
  Sorry,
 
  Craig Prahl
  CH2MHILL/SPB
  864-599-4102
  
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [
  sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] on behalf of Ron Greenman [
  rongreen...@gmail.com]
  Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 12:30 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Re: Pool sprinklers
 
  I'm going to agree with Craig's point but now that that has been said how
  about this. An old high rise hotel converted to a low income residential
  facility. The hotel had a pool and bath houses in the basement now rented
  by
  an artist. The pool had been drained and was where he did his welding.
 The
  bath stalls et. al. had become storgae for all sorts of stuff he used for
  creating his sculptures.
 
  On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:
 
   I did see a pool in a school that was drained for the summer and the
 gym
   mats were stored in it.
  
  
   At 11:05 AM 9/9/2011, you wrote:
   Interesting point of view so should one design sprinklers in pool
 areas
   for Group A high piled plastic storage?  Not trying to be sarcastic but
   trying to make a point.
   
   I see an issue with trying to anticipate what an area MAY be used for.
Especially an area such as this.  You could take any hotel room
 designed
  as
   light hazard and someone could decide to store extra furniture or
   mattresses.  Definitely not an LH room anymore but do you design
 systems
   with that possibility in mind?  No.
   
   In my opinion if the area's use changes from a swimming pool to a junk
   storage area, that is not the sprinkler designer's issue, that is an
   AHJ/insurance issue when annual inspections are performed, if they are
   performed.  Sprinkler designers don't design via the crystal ball
 method.
   
   Craig L. Prahl, CET
   Fire Protection
   CH2MHILL
   Lockwood Greene
   1500 International Drive
   Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
   Direct - 864.599.4102
   Fax - 864.599.8439
   CH2MHILL Extension  74102
   craig.pr...@ch2m.com
   
   
   
   -Original Message-
   From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:
   sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Rick Arvin
   Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 10:58 AM
   To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; '
   bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com'
   Subject: Re: Pool sprinklers
   
   Bobby,
   
From an AHJ's standpoint, I would insist on sprinkler coverage in the
   pool area for several reasons. The pool might not always be filled with
   water or used as a pool. What happens when it's drained for
 maintenance?
  I
   had a case were a pool was drained basically because it became too
 costly
  to
   maintain and the area tended to became a collection point for storage
 and
   'junk'. I have also seen cases where events are held at pools and
  temporary
   stages or 'other structures' are built in the immediate vicinity of the
  pool
   (sometimes over the pool). A fire could quickly get out of control if
 no
   sprinklers are provided in the original design.
   Depending on your particular situation, there could be many other
  reasons
   for sprinklers. Insurance requirements readily come to mind but I'm
 sure
   there are many good reasons to make sure pool areas are protected.
   
   
   Rick
   
   Rick Arvin
   Fire Protection Engineer
   Division of the Fire Marshal
   Office of Research Services
   National Institutes of Health
   Building 15G-2
   9000 Rockville Pike
   Bethesda, Maryland 20892
   301-496-2952
   
   
   
   From: Frank Herrick fra...@leawood.org
   To: 'bobby.gill...@keyfireprotection.com'

We're in trouble now...New Way to Extinguish Fires

2011-03-30 Thread Thomas Watt

Taming the Flame: Electrical Wave 'Blaster' Could Provide New Way to
Extinguish Fires


ScienceDaily (Mar. 28, 2011) — A curtain of flame halts firefighters trying
to rescue a family inside a burning home. One with a special backpack steps
to the front, points a wand at the flame, and shoots a beam of electricity
that opens a path through the flame for the others to pass and lead the
family to safety.

Scientists have described a discovery that could underpin a new genre of
fire-fighting devices, including sprinkler systems that suppress fires not
with water, but with zaps of electric current, without soaking and
irreparably damaging the contents of a home, business, or other structure.
Reporting on March 27 at the 241st National Meeting  Exposition of the
American Chemical Society (ACS), Ludovico Cademartiri, Ph.D., and his
colleagues in the group of George M. Whitesides, Ph.D., at Harvard
University, picked up on a 200-year-old observation that electricity can
affect the shape of flames, making flames bend, twist, turn, flicker, and
even snuffing them out. However, precious little research had been done over
the years on the phenomenon.

Controlling fires is an enormously difficult challenge, said Cademartiri,
who reported on the research. Our research has shown that by applying large
electric fields we can suppress flames very rapidly. We're very excited
about the results of this relatively unexplored area of research.

Firefighters currently use water, foam, powder and other substances to
extinguish flames. The new technology could allow them to put out fires
remotely -- without delivering material to the flame -- and suppress fires
from a distance. The technology could also save water and avoid the use of
fire-fighting materials that could potentially harm the environment, the
scientists suggest.

In the new study, they connected a powerful electrical amplifier to a
wand-like probe and used the device to shoot beams of electricity at an open
flame more than a foot high. Almost instantly, the flame was snuffed out.
Much to their fascination, it worked time and again.

The device consisted of a 600-watt amplifier, or about the same power as a
high-end car stereo system. However, Cademartiri believes that a power
source with only a tenth of this wattage could have similar
flame-suppressing effect. That could be a boon to firefighters, since it
would enable use of portable flame-tamer devices, which perhaps could be
hand-carried or fit into a backpack.

But how does it work? Cademartiri acknowledged that the phenomenon is
complex with several effects occurring simultaneously. Among these effects,
it appears that carbon particles, or soot, generated in the flame are key
for its response to electric fields. Soot particles can easily become
charged. The charged particles respond to the electric field, affecting the
stability of flames, he said.

Combustion is first and foremost a chemical reaction -- arguably one of the
most important -- but it's been somewhat neglected by most of the chemical
community, said Cademartiri. We're trying to get a more complete picture
of this very complex interaction.

Cademartiri envisions that futuristic electrical devices based on the
phenomenon could be fixed on the ceilings of buildings or ships, similar to
stationary water sprinklers now in use. Alternatively, firefighters might
carry the flame-tamer in the form of a backpack and distribute the
electricity to fires using a handheld wand. Such a device could be used, for
instance, to make a path for firefighters to enter a fire or create an
escape path for people to exit, he said.

The system shows particular promise for fighting fires in enclosed quarters,
such as armored trucks, planes, and submarines. Large forest fires, which
spread over much larger areas, are not as suitable for the technique, he
noted.

Cademartiri also reported how he and his colleagues found that electrical
waves can control the heat and distribution of flames. As a result, the
technology could potentially improve the efficiency of a wide variety of
technologies that involve controlled combustion, including automobile
engines, power plants, and welding and cutting torches, he said.

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (U.S. Department of Defense)
and the U.S. Department of Energy funded this study.
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Re: misaligned flanges

2011-02-11 Thread Thomas Watt

Hey Tom,
   I have had these gremlin leaks many times. First, I would make up a 9'
pipe stand.
I have found that these leaks are usually due to imperfections in the gasket
surface. The ones that protrude out, such as rust or old gasket material,
just grind, file , wire-wheel away. Sometimes there is pitting though. I
found a product while building an engine which
works very well for this problem. It is a copper gasket sealer in a spray
can available at auto parts stores. Once you spray it on and let it tack up,
it will hold the gasket in place while assembling the unit. This stuff
really helped me out with a balky fire pump head gasket once.

Anybody remember a product we used to paint on flanges? It was red like cpvc
cement and I think Permatex made it? It worked but it dries hard and would
possibly crack if the valve assembly shifted. Believe it or not I
retrofitted a building in which the fitters used this product as a pipe
thread sealer. Even on the heads!!! I crushed a lot of pipe with the wrench
trying to disassemble it. I still have a drop. I would like to take some
pics. Where would be the best place to post them? H..

Thomas Watt
Foreman/Fitter Extraordinaire



On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net wrote:

 I recently replaced an 8 wafer check on a pump bypass and had a bear of a
 time doing it.  It sits between 2 8 OSY gate valves 9' in the air and the
 whole room is flanged done in 1972.  When I took the old one out, the
 system
 side valve dropped about 1/8.   Plus, I had to use a bottle jack and
 wedges
 just to spread it enough to get old out and new in and now I have a drip.
  I
 used the same jack to lift the old valve back up and all seemed fine but 2
 weeks later; drip, drip.  I'm wondering if using double gaskets or maybe
 those ribbed gaskets might help.  It's a Milwaukee 1400 if that helps.
 Anyone been there done that?
 TD


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Re: statistics: sprinkler head failure

2011-02-01 Thread Thomas Watt

 Can't we get a piece of the picture from insurance company investigations?
Of course there will be many incidents where merchandise is salvageable and
squeegees plentiful which may have rolled trucks but did not generate
paperwork beyond the local municipality. Just seems that it would behoove
the insurance industry to keep track of non-fire related discharges
especially as they relate to $CASH$ outflow. Investigations of such
incidents should report cause even if unexplained {sprinkler activated w/o
physical damage}.

Thomas Watt
Fitter Extraordinaire
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Re: Hangers and pressure surges

2011-01-20 Thread Thomas Watt

Wouldn't every system with a FDC potentially see operating pressures above
100# ?


Thomas Watt
Foreman/Service Tech






On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Roland Huggins
rhugg...@firesprinkler.orgwrote:

 I don't believe it was the intent to apply the requirement to the possible
 build-up of pressure from surges but to the actual available supply.  The
 definition in 3.3.19 does state exclusive of surges.  Combined with the new
 expansion of requiring a relief valve on all wet pipe systems instead of
 just gridded systems (7.1.2.1 2010 ed), says to me that it's the
 characteristics of the  water supply that drive the requirement.

 Roland




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Residential Sprinkler Video

2011-01-14 Thread Thomas Watt

If this was shared before, please forgive me. It is new to me. Very funny.
Why can't we get this on TV nationwide?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqKE3zMx9o

Thomas Watt
Foreman/Service Tech
Still out of work waiting for the Recovery to visit Central Florida...
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Re: drip drums

2011-01-05 Thread Thomas Watt

Speaking of cheap valves. I got some cheap. imported globe valves early this
year. The casting inside the body actually destroyed  the disc when I opened
the valve.  And it wasn't only one...Beware of Made In China

On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Coastal coastalf...@sc.rr.com wrote:

 Hello Doug,

 Tyco DD-1, Not a bad unit, I think the ball valves are a bit cheap.

 Tuesday, January 4, 2011, 9:52:04 PM, you wrote:

  I am making a estimate to install 34 drip drums on a dry system.   I
 thought there was
  a company that had complete drip drums for sale.  Does anyone have any
 information about
  a company that  has complete drip drums for sale?
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 --
 Best regards,
 Charles Thurston
 Coastal Fire Protection
  Coastalmailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com

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Re: Nearly Half Of Nation's Reactors Will Follow New Model For Fire Safety

2010-12-31 Thread Thomas Watt

human fire patrols : 3 man crew consisting of a fire-smeller, a
fire-spotter, and 3rd member which upon confirming the findings of the first
2 will yell WOOPWOOP WOOP (now imagine 3 stooges doing it :)

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY  May we all be too busy to remember 2010!!!

Thomas





On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.comwrote:

 Now here's a novel concept:

 Nearly Half Of Nation's Reactors Will Follow New Model For Fire Safety.

 The AP (12/30) reported from New Hill, North Carolina, and cites the
 Raleigh (NC) News  Observer as the source of information that the
 Shearon Harris nuclear power plant is shifting to a new model of fire
 safety, replacing teams of human fire patrols with an automated
 fire-detection system. The Progress Energy-owned facility is close
 to finishing the change approved by the NRC. Moreover, Duke Energy's
 three-reactor Oconee nuclear plant in South Carolina is expected to
 make the same switch over the next two years. The AP said NRC
 spokesman Roger Hannah said Wednesday that the two plants were really
 pilot projects so the NRC and the industry could see how this works.
 The AP says 50 of the nation's 104 nuclear reactors...will adopt the
 new approach to fire safety, which includes different safety
 standards based on varying risk levels throughout the plant rather
 than meeting a uniform fire safety standard throughout the facility.

 ASEE Blog

 --
 Ron Greenman
 Instructor
 Fire Protection Engineering Technology
 Bates Technical College
 1101 So. Yakima Ave.
 Tacoma, WA 98405

 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

 http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

 253.680.7346
 253.576.9700 (cell)

 Member:
 AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC

 They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
 Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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Re: A matter of conscience

2010-10-15 Thread Thomas Watt

The sad thing is I am 44, 5-10, 175#. I eat pretty well, not much fast
food,  but am cursed by heredity.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com wrote:

 Glad that all is well. The changing diet thing seems to come with age
 and girth.

 On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Thomas Watt
 firesprinklerssaveli...@gmail.com wrote:
  Update: Procedure went ok. Nothing to be afraid of guys. No significant
  blockages found but enough to warrant some changes in diet, smoking,
 etc...
  Thanks to all for your support.
  God bless...
 
  Thomas Watt
  The best out-of-work Foreman/Tech in Orlando, Florida
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 --
 Ron Greenman
 Instructor
 Fire Protection Engineering Technology
 Bates Technical College
 1101 So. Yakima Ave.
 Tacoma, WA 98405

 rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

 http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

 253.680.7346
 253.576.9700 (cell)

 Member:
 AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC

 They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
 Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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Re: A matter of conscience

2010-10-14 Thread Thomas Watt

Update: Procedure went ok. Nothing to be afraid of guys. No significant
blockages found but enough to warrant some changes in diet, smoking, etc...
Thanks to all for your support.
God bless...

Thomas Watt
The best out-of-work Foreman/Tech in Orlando, Florida
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Re: A matter of conscience

2010-10-13 Thread Thomas Watt

Sorry for the delayed response. I am currently in the cardiac unit awaiting
a heart cath in the morning.
I remember the retaining nuts being provided with the Sammy screws and never
thought of them as being optional. (no sarcasm intended) However, when the
boss says Just do it I did as I was told.

On the other hand, I remember reading here that 1 1/2 split-ring hangers
are only rated at 160#. Far short of NFPA13 requirements. Since reading
that, I have only used them as stand-off rings for attaching pipe to walls
and floors.

With this heavy galvanized dry system hanging from all these weak links, do
I really have nothing to fear when that valve trips?  If one hanger fails,
then the next closest ones fail, etc
 I think I just want something to worry about other than my health.

Thomas Watt
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A matter of conscience

2010-10-12 Thread Thomas Watt

  I was driving down the highway the other day when I passed a job I did
about 4 or 5 years ago, a dry system (4main w/2 branch lines) over a
covered play area outside an elementary school. I had some reservations at
the time but was told to follow the plan with the materials provided. What I
was concerned with at the time was installing Sammy screws vertically into
boxed steel beams with no way to reach a back nut to install it. I had to
drill pilot holes and oil the threads to help keep the Sammys from breaking
off.
   The other problem I did not realize at the time but have become aware of
through my parasitic leaching from this remakably informative discussion
group. Other than the 4 rings on the main, all of the hangers are the
split-ring type. I remember reading here that they do not meet the
requirements of NFPA 13 for hanging pipe.
   Call me paranoid but I think that this system could fall given the right
set of circumstances. Remember, this system hangs above small children at
play. Am I  obligated to inform the AHJ or some other entity?

Thomas Watt
A parasite/fitter/foreman (laid-off again)
Orlando, Florida
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Re: Flexhead Question?

2009-12-12 Thread Thomas Watt

Certainly, on occasion. But, how often do we see the majority of a system 
supported by ceiling grid wire???
This was found by some co-workers recently at  an ex-Circuit City  store 
retro-fit.  Wish I had a picture.

Sorry so late to chime in, I have been working out of town.

Thomas


 What conflict with ceiling wire? Don't they use the sprinkler pipe to 
 support the ceiling grid? ;)

 Daniel L. Merkle, CET
 NICET # 118915
 Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III
 COLONIAL Fire Protection Systems Inc.
 937 Linden Ave. W.
 E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445
 Office-(585) 381-7362
 Fax-(585) 381-8263
 E-mail - dlmcolon...@yahoo.com




 

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Re: 5.62 K Factor

2009-11-04 Thread Thomas Watt

All makes, many models. Are you trying to identify a sprinkler?


- Original Message - 
From: fireg...@aol.com
To: sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
Cc: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:17 PM
Subject: 5.62 K Factor


 Anybody know the make and model of a sprinkler head with a 5.62 k? of 
 hand?

 Thanks Guys,
 George Medina
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Re: Does Anyone manufacture Dry Sprinklers longer than 60?

2009-10-30 Thread Thomas Watt

Any possibility of lowering the system, or even just parts of it,  14-15. 
Just a thought.

Thomas

- Original Message - 
From: Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Does Anyone manufacture Dry Sprinklers longer than 60?

 Thank you all for the response about Viking Dry heads.
 I spoke with the AHJ- State Fire Marshal office and they stated they will 
 not accept installation of any heads that are not UL listed.
 UL lists heads up to 48 in length, so we will have to re-pipe this dry 
 system and use shorter length dry heads.

 Forest Wilson

 Project Manager
 Cherokee Fire Protection Co.
 3195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900
 Dayton OH 45434

 ph: 937-376-2333
 fx: 614-455-4324
 cell: 937-307-5647

 .

 Visit our blog: www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com

 NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be solely 
 for the use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and 
 may contain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. It 
 is not intended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the 
 named addressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named 
 addressee). It should not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized 
 persons. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in error, 
 please delete it from your system without copying or forwarding it, and 
 notify the sender of the error by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire 
 Protection Co. at 888-347-3079 toll free.

 -Original Message-
 From: Lori Kitchen lo...@whitewaterfire.com
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Fri, Oct 30, 2009 1:59 pm
 Subject: RE: Does Anyone manufacture Dry Sprinklers longer than 60?

 Viking makes them up to 65...but it does not have any listings.  The AHJ
 as to sign off on their use if we use them here as well.

 ori Kitchen
 P, Service  Maintenence Division
 hitewater Fire Sprinkler
 316-295-4120 (office)
 16-295-4162 (fax)

 -Original Message-
 rom: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest 
 Wilson
 ent: Friday, October 30, 2009 11:17 AM
 o: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 ubject: Does Anyone manufacture Dry Sprinklers longer than 60?

 oes anyone know of a source for dry pendant sprinkler longer than 60?
 pecifically 62, 62.5, and 63 inches long?
 property we work for has old Central dry heads, the Fire Marshal says to
 eplace them, and the city says to repipe we need a permit, engineered
 rawings, etc...I'm hoping we can just replace them to save the owner 
 money.

 orest Wilson
 Project Manager
 herokee Fire Protection Co.
 195 Dayton Xenia Rd Ste 900
 ayton OH 45434
 ph: 937-376-2333
 x: 614-455-4324
 ell: 937-307-5647

 Visit our blog: www.cherokee-fire.blogspot.com

 NOTICE: The information contained in this email is intended to be solely 
 for
 he use of the named individual or entity to which it is directed and may
 ontain information that is privileged or otherwise confidential. It is not
 ntended for transmission to, or receipt by, anyone other than the named
 ddressee (or a person authorized to deliver it to the named addressee). It
 hould not be copied or forwarded to any unauthorized persons. If you have
 eceived this electronic mail transmission in error, please delete it from
 our system without copying or forwarding it, and notify the sender of the
 rror by reply email or by calling Cherokee Fire Protection Co. at
 88-347-3079 toll free.
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Re: water hammer and CPVC

2009-10-29 Thread Thomas Watt

I found this by accident while searching for something else. Less than 6 
months ago and already only vaguely remembered. I'm getting old. 
Dammit...Thomas- Original Message - 
From: Terri Leyton te...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: Tyco Update on Allied ABFII - Steel Coated Pipe and CPVC

 Tyco Update on Allied ABF(r)
 Steel Coated Pipe and CPVC

 The following notice has been issued by Tyco Fire Suppression  Building
 Products regarding CPVC compatibility.

 Since its introduction in 2004, Allied Tube  Conduit's ABF(r) II
 anti-microbial steel sprinkler pipe has been installed and successfully
 maintained in millions of feet of steel-CPVC applications. Recently,
 Allied and Tyco Fire Suppression  Building Products became aware of a
 small number of sites with environmental stress cracking (ESC) failures
 of CPVC pipe and fittings. Some customers have expressed concern that
 the ESC was caused by chemical components of the anti-microbial coating
 on the ABF II coated steel pipe. To put this into context, these
 instances of failure involve less than one tenth of one percent of the
 installed base in combined systems in the Americas.

 ESC failures can occur in CPVC pipe and fittings when exposed to
 sufficient levels of stress and when an environmental stress cracking
 agent is present in sufficient concentration over a period of time. An
 ESC failure results in cracks in the wall of the pipe or fitting. These
 cracks typically result in weeping, dripping, and other small leaks from
 the fire sprinkler system.

 In response to recent concerns, Tyco gathered a team of scientists and
 industry experts working in conjunction with Lubrizol and customers to
 investigate. Tyco's investigation has included an analysis of how the
 ABF II coating may be released and transported through the piping
 system, and how it may interact with other components of the system.

 The initial findings of the investigation suggest that in some
 circumstances, components of the ABF II coating may wash from the
 interior of the steel pipe and transport to downstream CPVC pipe and
 fittings. In combination with ancillary products used in the system,
 such as cutting oils and lubricants, the ABF II coating components may
 collect in sufficient concentration and in some circumstances pose a
 potential risk to the CPVC.

 However, in the instances of CPVC failure investigated and not linked to
 poor quality CPVC pipe or fittings, unusually high mechanical stress has
 been present. Unusually high amounts of mechanical stress create an
 environment that makes CPVC pipe and fittings more susceptible to ESC.
 For example, some approved hangers have been found to put an excessive
 mechanical stress on the pipe. Tyco is continuing to analyze the causes
 and effects of mechanical stresses on the safety tolerances of CPVC pipe
 and fittings used in conjunction with ABF II coated steel pipe. Because
 steel-CPVC systems are installed using a variety of techniques and in a
 myriad of diverse environments, there are a large number of mechanical
 and chemical variables and combinations that a comprehensive
 investigation must include.

 It is important to note that Tyco's analysis to date does not indicate
 an inherent risk associated solely with using ABF II coated steel pipe
 in combination with CPVC pipe and fittings. As a conservative approach
 while the investigation continues, Tyco recommends that ABF II coated
 steel pipe not be used in new systems containing CPVC. For these
 applications, Allied will continue to make uncoated steel pipe
 available. ABF II coated steel pipe should still be used in all-steel
 systems, where it provides industry-leading anti-microbial protection.

 The overwhelming majority of installations of ABF II coated steel pipe
 with CPVC pipe and fittings have provided reliable service without
 incident for many years. Based on this experience and the initial
 findings, Tyco does not believe that previously installed systems are at
 an increased risk of ESC failure. For systems that are already installed
 or in the process of being installed, Tyco does not recommend removal of
 the CPVC or ABF II coated steel pipe.

 For additional information or questions, visit
 http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102558568972s=739e=001lDIXBoYU8jcRfyYWud2CN
 gEnSp_lMORuxA0h4CyiqGRosqybbJzhhOVL3y0PeIhQVPZPiA_RtXXp-dMPTG-6TiiXnkESF
 lBWEG_ilCcvIMejJZI1KJoEpHikOpr6X8Hh6yvkC5qdw2Y=
 www.alliedtube-sprinkler.com/cpvc or contact Tyco at 1-800-890-2278 in
 the US and 1-708-339-1610 ext. 7301 outside the US.

 As a responsible leader in the fire sprinkler industry, Tyco is
 committed to the industry and its customers. Tyco will continue its
 investigation, testing, and analysis to enable it to provide the
 additional answers that it, the industry, and its customers seek. Thank
 you for your continued support.

 Terri Simmons Leyton

 PROTECTION DESIGN  CONSULTING

Sprinklered apartment building burns

2009-10-28 Thread Thomas Watt

Here's a story from my part of the world. Sprinklered 3-story apartment 
building burned. According to the article the sprinklers did operate, however, 
I assume the attic was not covered. 

Of the first fiery moments, residents of the building remembered long moments 
of pandemonium and terror. Alarms rang loudly and sprinklers sprayed over their 
heads.

http://www.fireengineering.com/index/articles/news_display/136970312.html
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Re: Homeowner needs advice

2009-10-28 Thread Thomas Watt

Air is a lot easier to clean up in the case of a blow-out.

Although I do know some fitters will put 20-30psi of air on the system to 
make sure it's holding before they fill with water.  Of course I asked what 
good knowing it was leaking did them if they couldn't see air leaks and most 
likely could hear them either.  Yeah, well umm. ya see

In response to the original question, my main concern would be the 
possibility of burn-through of air-filled cpvc pipe. Especially if the attic 
is not sprinklered. Won't the air accumulate at the highest points of the 
system? We are not talking about air pockets, we are talking about the 
entire volume of the system compressed to the top. If that does not alarm 
anyone, it should at least send a trouble signal.

Thomas 

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Re: Report: Antifreeze sprinkler system may havecontributedtofatalexplosion

2009-10-23 Thread Thomas Watt


 Roland, are you referring to the Type EA-1 Protectospray Nozzles 
we used to install in kitchen hood systems? I have not worked  with 
these systems for nearly ten years but even then the idea of putting 
water on deep-fryers did not seem like a great idea. 

Thomas 
 



 Since you are following the directions of FM and they are the AHJ  
 (well one of them anyways), full steam ahead.  For all other jobs,  
 there are no listed sprinklers for deep fat fryers (unless one hit the  
 streets recently) since the UL test was modified and the previously  
 ones could not pass the new test (splattering was the issue I think).
 
 Roland
 
 
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CO Testing Problem

2009-10-19 Thread Thomas Watt

Hello Forumites,
  I'm having a problem passing my final. This is a 4 story fire station. Wet 
automatic standpipe. The inspector wants 100psi residual at the roof. I believe 
we are still under NFPA 14 (2000) which I dont have a copy of. I see in the 
2003 ed. that 250 gpm max is required but no mention of any required residual. 
Any ideas?

Thomas Watt

http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae280/SprinklermanTom/
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Re: CO Testing Problem

2009-10-19 Thread Thomas Watt

Well,we hooked up a pumper and rolled out a hose and playpipe on the roof. 
Never had to use the pumper. Plenty of water even w/o 100 psi residual. He's 
happy, we're happy. It's a good day ;)

Thanx guys
Thomas

I posted some pictures, the pumproom was locked up. Is this a big fire 
station compared to some of you big city guys? 12 app. bays.
http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae280/SprinklermanTom/


From: Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: CO Testing Problem


 Tom,

 What does the building code say? Can the 100 psi requirement be
 waived if the building is fully sprinklered and under 75 ft (or
 something to that effect)?

 Todd


 At 08:06 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote:
Hello Forumites,
   I'm having a problem passing my final. This is a 4 story fire
 station. Wet automatic standpipe. The inspector wants 100psi
 residual at the roof. I believe we are still under NFPA 14 (2000)
 which I dont have a copy of. I see in the 2003 ed. that 250 gpm max
 is required but no mention of any required residual. Any ideas?

Thomas Watt

http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae280/SprinklermanTom/
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 Todd G. Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, Connecticut
 www.fpdc.com
 860.535.2080
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Heads Under Platforms

2009-09-15 Thread Thomas Watt

   I have a fire house which has 3 poles dropping from the living quarters 
to platforms in the apparatus bay. At this point they drop from a separate 
pole to the ground level. These platforms are steel with slots approximately 
1/4 inch by 6 inches long. I piped them out with 155 QR Uprights the same as 
the high ceiling.

Question: Shall/should these heads have a rack type shield to prevent 
cold-solder?

Question:  AHJ wants Intermediate heads so that they dont fuse before upper 
coverage  responds. (He didn't say anything about the heads under ductwork.) 
Isn't this backward thinking? I would think you would want the closest head 
to activate first. Right?

Thomas



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Re: 13D Sauna/Steam Rooms

2009-09-11 Thread Thomas Watt

Awww come on. I've been installing 286 forever and never had a problem. 
Saunas in general are heated from 150 to 195 degrees. I did replace some 
200s last year after one fused in a recently completed hotel.

BTW: sauna is the only Finnish word in the English dictionary.

Thomas


- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org; b...@firebyknight.com
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: 13D Sauna/Steam Rooms


You will be forced to go the 350-500 deg heads, period.

Greg McGahan
Operations Manager

Living Water Fire Protection
1160 McKenzie Road
P.O. Box 877
Cantonment, Florida 32533
(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231
g...@livingwaterfp.com


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 5:33 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: 13D Sauna/Steam Rooms

I am working on a 13D that has a sauna and steam room.  What temp sprinklers
should I use, and is it permissible to use QR instead of Residential?   I'm
thinking that I will need high temp heads and residentials only go up to
175F, at least the ones that I'm familiar with.

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET
1660 Hill Rd
Melba, Idaho 83641
(208) 318-3057
(208) 495-2057 fax
b...@firebyknight.com
www.firebyknight.com

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Re: marking CPVC piping

2009-08-09 Thread Thomas Watt

I am pretty certain ECFP had investigated the use of Sharpies to mark CPVC 
(to indentify dryfitters and such after a $1million+ loss) and  were given 
the go-ahead.
Hope that helps.

 Thomas

- Original Message - 
From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: marking CPVC piping

I was at a local fab shop Wednesday and told them there might be some
 compatibility issues with labels.  They don't do a lot of cpvc fab, most 
 is
 done in-house but they were concerned.  I looked at their labels, they had
 about 10 stacks on the counter waiting to go to fabrication and only one 
 had
 some plastic in it.  They use standard (if that's any help) Staples laser
 labels off their Hydratek program and laser printer.  I told them if I 
 heard
 anything further I would copy them.  I thought this thread might have
 disappeared.  What about Sharpies?  That's what we use.  We keep one
 tethered to the chop saw.
 Tom

 Unfortunately there is no simple answer.  Depending on the type of sticker
 and the type of adhesive we could have a problem.  I would like to know 
 name
 of product and have Barry Just from Lubrizol contact them and do 
 appropriate
 tests.

 Top Myers

 Exactly,Top? Any ideas?

 Greg McGahan

 Hello Greg,

 I would be concerned with the solvent in the glue on the sticker not being
 compatible with the CPVC.

 Thursday, July 23, 2009, 4:35:20 PM, you wrote:

 Anybody have knowledge of problems or lack of problems with using
 adhesive stickers on CPVC pipe?

 Greg McGahan

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Re: marking CPVC piping

2009-07-23 Thread Thomas Watt

Since even stickers on hardhats must be tested and materials found 
compatible blah blah blah, I would expect the same concerns.
However, I am pretty certain ECFP had investigated the use of Sharpies to 
mark CPVC (to indentify dryfitters and such) and  were given the go-ahead. 
Hope that helps.



- Original Message - 
From: Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:35 PM
Subject: marking CPVC piping


 Anybody have knowledge of problems or lack of problems with using
 adhesive stickers on CPVC pipe?



 Greg McGahan

 Operations Manager



 Living Water Fire Protection

 1160 McKenzie Road

 P.O. Box 877

 Cantonment, Florida 32533

 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231

 g...@livingwaterfp.com mailto:g...@livingwaterfp.com





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Re: Virginia Home Builders

2009-07-17 Thread Thomas Watt

The Marx brothers demonstrated this type of manual deluge system way back 
when. Don't recall the movie title but they were in a hospital.

Thomas Watt

- Original Message - 
From: MOWLE Kevin(K) - BRUCE POWER kevin.mo...@brucepower.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, July 17, 2009 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: Virginia Home Builders

Re: item #2.

Perhaps a list of Hollywood flics showing showing incorrect sprinkler
operation.

I put my vote in for the last or 2nd last James Bond where a pull
station activates a bank of sprinklers.

K. Mowle
Bruce Power.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Smith,
Steven D. (CSFD)
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:41 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Virginia Home Builders

1- I didn't know that sprinklers detected smoke.
2- The misnomer of all sprinklers going off at once has been propagated
by Hollywood and Doritos.
3- OF COURSE there will be more water damage than fire damage when a
sprinkler goes off!!. They seem to forget how much fire damage would
occur had the sprinkler not been there.

 Sprinklers cause unintended damage. Statistics from the Virginia Fire
 Incident Reporting System show that 76.8 percent of all fires in
 Virginia from 2000 through 2008 either did not spread or were confined

 to an object or a room and contained. But when sprinklers detect smoke

 they set off every sprinkler in the house, not just in the room where
 the fire is occurring. In many homes that suffer a fire where working
 sprinklers exist there is more water damage to the home than fire
 damage.

 However, that does not offset the increased costs charged for
 potential water damage and flooding. In most cases sprinklers go off
 in areas of the home where fire is not occurring, causing more claims
 for water damage than fire damage. Virginia insurance agents say this
 drives the cost of insurance higher for people who have sprinkler
systems.

1- Show me truly affordable housing and then you may have an argument.

 Sprinklers will harm efforts at providing affordable housing
statewide.
 According to an August 2006 survey of home builders done by the
 National Association of Home Builders' Research Center, the average
 sprinkler system costs $2.66 per square foot to install in a new home.
 For the average home size considered to be affordable housing in
 Virginia - 1,800 to 2,200 square feet - the maximum cost would be
 approximately $5,850. In the Richmond area, about 710 families lose
 the ability to qualify for a new home mortgage with each $1,000
 increase in the price of a new home. Mandating fire sprinklers would
 keep more than 4,100 families from being able to buy affordable
housing in the Richmond area.

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Re: water flow timing

2009-07-15 Thread Thomas Watt

Chris, you would be butting heads with every AHJ in the Central Florida 
area. I have never gotten a CO without sounding alarms within 60-90 secs.

Thomas Watt




- Original Message - 
From: Chris Cahill chr...@sentryfiremn.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 11:53 AM
Subject: RE: water flow timing


 Right or wrong I always reconciled 13 vs. 72 like this.  The flow switch
 must activate within the parameters of 13.  5 minutes.  Once the paddle
 moves and the electrical connection is made 72 takes over and the FA must
 respond within the parameters of 72.  90 seconds.  So in theory 6.5 
 minutes
 could pass between opening the inspectors test valve and the alarm signal
 engaging in the FAP.

 Chris Cahill, P.E.
 Fire Protection Engineer
 Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.

 763-658-4483
 763-658-4921 fax

 Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com

 Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390

 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
  Waverly, MN 55390
 

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free standing partitions

2009-07-15 Thread Thomas Watt

Scott,
I assume you meant 8'-10 partitions, if so, not being 18 below ceiling 
they are an obstruction. So, I would say sprinkler both sides being careful to 
remain at least 6'-0 apart and maintaining 130 sq. ft. per head.

Just my $.02

Thomas Watt



Could someone please help me with this question?
How would pendant sprinklers be located around a free standing partition in
a ordinary hazard occupancy? The NFPA only seems to address this for light
hazard.I have 8-10 partitions in an area with a 9'-6 ceiling in a mall
store.
Any input would be helpful.

Scott Enides
S.R.I. Fire Sprinkler LLC
Email: s...@srifiresprinkler.com   
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Lubricant Foaming

2009-07-13 Thread Thomas Watt

I believe I am the only one who received this so I have forwarded it after 
stripping the pics. Anyone who would like to see them, just speak up.

Thomas Watt



Confraterrille EXPERTS

 

I am looking for a technical (scientific) article that the following event 
describes.

 

1 year after the placement of a wet sprinkler installation, the lubricant used 
to place rigid couplings, is foaming out of the coupling. See pictures in annex.

I think that I found the cause of this, the use of too much lubricant during 
the installation and the (small) movements of piping during the live cycle, but 
I am still looking for a good text that describes the problem and the cause on 
a more scientific way.

 

I hope some of you can help me out on this.

 

Thank you in advance

 

Giedo Van pellicom

Expert Witness for Belgium Court

2880 Bornem

Belgium

+32.38.89.26.84 (office)

+32.475.49.83.85 (mobile)
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Re: Lubricant Foaming

2009-07-13 Thread Thomas Watt



I'm no scientist but I can think of several possible causes.

Excessive lubricant.
Improper grooving (too deep or shallow)
Mismatched components with different tolerances (Grinnell fitting-Vic 
coupling)

Frequent draining and filling of system will make these problems more 
apparent due to the contracting and expanding of the gasket along with the 
introduction of air into the system.

Thomas Watt 

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Re: Corrosion Issues at Jail

2009-07-10 Thread Thomas Watt

Are we talking about XL? I would guess that the crew that performed the 
final cutbacks threaded the pipe too shallow.  If the space above ceiling is 
plenum space, the leaks may never show themselves below ceiling.

I would be interested to see a fitting cut in half in order to find out 
whether the threads were pulled in properly. I suspect not. Especially if 
cutbacks were made after concrete ceilings were finished.

 I have heard of fitters using anaerobic pipe sealants and simply 
hand-tightening the pipe. The shame

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Kowkabany st...@neptunefpe.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 4:51 PM
Subject: Corrosion Issues at Jail


 I'm trying to get my arms around a really interesting problem at a local
 jail where a 7 year old sprinkler system is failing at a variety of spots
 due to corrosion.  I looked at the system this morning and here's what I
 found:



 1)  The failures are happening at 1 90's and tee's where a drop goes
 down into a cell or the concrete ceiling of a common area below

 2)  The exterior of the fitting and the drop look horrible and are
 rusting off in piles of rust which are sitting at the base of the drop

 3)  The fittings are Chinese and the pipe is threadable thinwall - I
 think this might be part of the problem

 4)  The threads seems to extend too far outside of the fittings - over
 an inch in some spots

 5)  The water has been tested and apparently there is no MIC in the
 water but the water is mineral laden and fairly aggressive in this area

 6)  Most of the system looks perfectly fine with some light surface 
 rust
 like normal - it's just maybe one in 20 drops with the corrosion issue



 I want to get the metallurgy of the Chinese fittings tested and a couple 
 of
 the corroded pipe sections removed and tested to see what is going on.



 Does that scenario sound familiar to anyone.  Any suggestions on labs to 
 use
 for getting the pipe and water tested?



 This type of forensic analysis is pretty new to me.  Thanks very much in
 advance,





 Steve Kowkabany, P.E.

 Fire Protection Engineer

 Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC

 616 Davis Street

 Neptune Beach, FL 32266

 904-652-4200 Phone

 904-212-0868 Fax



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Re: Heads

2009-07-09 Thread Thomas Watt

Living in the Florida, where we have just gotten our 2002 ed. broken in, I 
have yet to read a copy of 2007. I am left wondering what section 6.2.1 
pertains to. If I install a head during rough-in and months later have to 
remove it during trim-out is it no longer new? and needs to be replaced?

Standard procedure has always been to only re-install heads in the same 
system they were removed from. But it sure is tempting to save some well- 
preserved Central Model H heads for those future retro-fits.

Anyhow, I don't think we are talking about reconditioned sprinklers which 
have always been forbidden as far as I know.

Thomas Watt
Service Tech-Inspector-Foreman-Fitter
(a job's a job at this point)


- Original Message - 
From: larryshulman larryshul...@earthlink.net
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:03 PM
Subject: RE: Heads


NFPA 13-07:
6.2.1 General.   Only new sprinklers shall be installed.
6.1.2.2   Reconditioned sprinklers shall not be permitted to be utilized on
any new or existing system.


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay
Blocker
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Heads

Is there some where written that says you cant reinstall the heads after
removal? I am coming up blank in my search on this old rule.

JB



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test

2009-07-09 Thread Thomas Watt

testing 1 2 3
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Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

2009-07-07 Thread Thomas Watt

Yeah...what Craig said. I did not mean to discourage anyone.
I was only thinking that this install does not conform to NFPA 13 and 
violates some rules of installation I have learned and obeyed for many 
years.

BTW: I was not thinking of heat collectors (which do not exist, right?) but 
proximity to ceiling or overhangs, etc...

Thomas Watt
Overqualified laid-off again Foreman/fitter
- Original Message - 
From: craig.pr...@ch2m.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age


 Don't despair over the ramblings and musings of those who have seen the 
 picture of the installation. It's just that we in the industry look at 
 something like that and try to figure out the reasoning of the one who 
 came up with the design.   The questions aren't necessarily pointed to 
 you, it's just more like thinking out loud.

 Thanks for sharing,


 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection Specialist
 Mechanical Department
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 http://www.ch2m.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Stewart 
 Kidd
 Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:16 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

 I'm beginning to regret even mentioning the premises.

 I have no information at all on the system or the assumptions behind them. 
 I understand that the the protection was installed voluntarily (ie there 
 was no legal requirement to provide protection) when the change of use 
 took place - the skating rink was not previously protected. The photo was 
 taken more than 10/12 years ago and I'm not even sure if the premises are 
 still used for retailing.

 Can't help further, sorry

 Stewart
 On 6 Jul 2009, at 14:22, John Drucker wrote:

 So Arup's determination assures that the forementioned sprinkler
 protection will operate and control the fire matching the performance
 of a typical system where a roof or ceiling barrier is present ?.

 Seems to me the concern would be uncontrolled fire spread to adjacent
 contents.

 John Drucker Jr.
 Fire Protection Subcode Official
 Borough of Red Bank, NJ



 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Stewart
 Kidd
 Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 8:54 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

 Thomas

 This is not one of my jobs - I have done an insurance review but was
 not involved the system design and installation.

 Given the height of the heads and the fuel load and likely fire spread
 scenario I believe the fire strategy report prepared by Arup Fire
 decided that collectors were unnecessary.

 Regards

 Stewart


 On 6 Jul 2009, at 00:10, Thomas Watt wrote:

 Wow...no heat collection necessary eh?


 - Original Message -
 From: Stewart Kidd stewart-k...@ndirect.co.uk
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:30 AM
 Subject: Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age


 Can't post the file due to restrictions on the size of submissions.
 Happy to send it to anyone who wants.

 Stewart
 On 5 Jul 2009, at 10:44, Haji, Jaber M wrote:

 Pls let's share the picture. Thanks in advance.

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 ] On Behalf Of Stewart Kidd
 Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 11:58 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

 Frans

 Can't recall the article but there is a UK shopping centre
 (converted from a skating rink) which is sprinkler protected using
 free standing posts each with three or four arms containing
 sprinkler heads.  I'll send you a picture off-line.

 Regards

 Stewart

 On 5 Jul 2009, at 01:19, Frans Stoop wrote:

 Dear colleagues,

 If my memory serves me right, there was an article in Sprinkler
 Age

 some years ago about how a contractor installed water monitors
 inside a dome structure.
 Installing sprinklers was impossible because the main structure
 was

 only an (inflatable?) membrane.

 I tried to retrieve that article by digging through old years of
 Sprinkler Age but unfortunately I couldn't find it.
 Or was it in Fire Journal?

 Does anyone of you happens to remember that article and can point
 me to the right year and number?

 Frans Stoop
 TOS architecture  fire protection Netherlands
 f.st...@tosfire.com Tel. +31-24-324 0112

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Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

2009-07-05 Thread Thomas Watt

I would also like to see this. Thanx.

tw...@cfl.rr.com


 
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Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

2009-07-05 Thread Thomas Watt

Wow...no heat collection necessary eh?

- Original Message - 
From: Stewart Kidd stewart-k...@ndirect.co.uk
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

 Can't post the file due to restrictions on the size of submissions.
 Happy to send it to anyone who wants.

 Stewart
 On 5 Jul 2009, at 10:44, Haji, Jaber M wrote:

 Pls let's share the picture. Thanks in advance.

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 ] On Behalf Of Stewart Kidd
 Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 11:58 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: Membrane dome in Sprinkler Age

 Frans

 Can't recall the article but there is a UK shopping centre (converted
 from a skating rink) which is sprinkler protected using free standing
 posts each with three or four arms containing sprinkler heads.  I'll
 send you a picture off-line.

 Regards

 Stewart

 On 5 Jul 2009, at 01:19, Frans Stoop wrote:

 Dear colleagues,

 If my memory serves me right, there was an article in Sprinkler Age
 some years ago about how a contractor installed water monitors inside
 a dome structure.
 Installing sprinklers was impossible because the main structure was
 only an (inflatable?) membrane.

 I tried to retrieve that article by digging through old years of
 Sprinkler Age but unfortunately I couldn't find it.
 Or was it in Fire Journal?

 Does anyone of you happens to remember that article and can point me
 to the right year and number?

 Frans Stoop
 TOS architecture  fire protection
 Netherlands f.st...@tosfire.com
 Tel. +31-24-324 0112

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Re: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC

2009-05-17 Thread Thomas Watt

assume, practical...are those definitions in the 2007 edition? I can't find 
them in 2002.

I included the reference only to show the importance the manufacturer places 
on removal of air from the system. I assume it is not only the water hammer 
issue but the real  possibility of distortion or failure(burn-through).
(A.6.3.6  NFPA 13 2002 ed.)

I have found nothing quite as disconcerting as walking through a jobsite on 
a monday morning to find heads, escutcheons and burned off head adaptors 
littering the floor.
Lightning struck roof, system 2 weeks from hydro.

- Original Message - 
From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC


Thomas,

When applying water to the FDC we can assume we are doing so to a pipe
that has already been tested for integrity and not worrying about dry
fits, unconnected pieces, etc. as we would in a new system (property
damage), nor full of air as we experience in a new system (potential
explosive decompression and the resultant bodily injury).  We can also
assume that we are adding water to supplement a flow that is already
occurring and therefore there are holes (discharging heads) already
in the pipe. Unless we unleash the damned hellish hounds of hundreds
of pounds of over-pressurization upon the system I doubt that we will
even have the mildest of water hammer. And as a side note we have
hooked this FDC up to the truck because the building is on fire and
already experiencing property damage. Now should the pipe run from the
FDC be as short as possible? Certainly the dry portion, and we can
limit an FDC dry run of 100 feet (or more, or less) by placing the FDC
check valve as close as practical to the FDC itself. But if placing it
at the riser is the most practical location (my ridiculous 100 foot
run excepted) then so be it. I wonder how much pressure I would have
to apply to a CPVC system with only one head flowing before I've
created a situation that would rupture piping and connections already
tested to 200 psi in a static state? I'd bet more than my fire engine
could generate.

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Thomas Watt tw...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
 IMHO, no.

 The FDC check should be installed as close as possible to the FDC to
 eliminate the dry run.

 From the Harvel install guide:
 When pressure testing, the sprinkler system shall be slowly filled

 with water and the air bled from the highest and farthest sprinkler

 heads before pressure testing is applied. Air must be removed from

 piping systems (plastic or metal) to prevent it from being locked in

 the system when pressure is applied. Entrapped air can generate

 excessive surge pressures that can result in bodily injury and/or

 property damage, regardless of the piping materials used.



 - Original Message -
 From: R Richardson r.richard...@seattle.gov
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 1:04 PM
 Subject: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC


 We are reviewing a proposal for a wet pipe sprinkler system using CPVC
 pipe. However, there is a run of CPVC pipe between the FDC and the riser
 that is dry, is this standard practice or acceptable?

 Thanks,

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

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-- 
Ron Greenman
at home
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Re: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC

2009-05-17 Thread Thomas Watt

 What colored bear said this was a 13D system?:)

Go Magic!!!

- Original Message - 
From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC

That was 2007 but it's in 2002 also and also in 4.3.2. Also, in A.4.3
there are recommendations on hydro testing DRY systems. Remember that
dry systems are not prohibited by 13D. They are just not acceptable at
the moment due to listing restrictions. And now I'm considering
reversing my opinion. Since BlazemMaster specifically states it is NOT
to be used in dry systems does that also mean the dry section of FDCs?
BlazeMaster is silent on the subject so must you take the dry system
prohibition and apply it to any dry part of a BlazeMaster
installation? The silence seems to suggest just that. I haven't
completely changed camps so quickly but I'm sitting on the fence. I
love public discussion. It allows you to think out loud and show the
entire world how big a fool you can be. I have a photo (Photoshopped
for sure) of a fox's head amid a sea of beagles. The caption reads,
When you are in deep trouble, say nothing and try to look
inconspicuous. I think I'll take my own advice.

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Thomas Watt tw...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
 assume, practical...are those definitions in the 2007 edition? I can't 
 find
 them in 2002.

 I included the reference only to show the importance the manufacturer 
 places
 on removal of air from the system. I assume it is not only the water 
 hammer
 issue but the real possibility of distortion or failure(burn-through).
 (A.6.3.6 NFPA 13 2002 ed.)

 I have found nothing quite as disconcerting as walking through a jobsite 
 on
 a monday morning to find heads, escutcheons and burned off head adaptors
 littering the floor.
 Lightning struck roof, system 2 weeks from hydro.

 - Original Message -
 From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 8:26 PM
 Subject: Re: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC

 Thomas,

 When applying water to the FDC we can assume we are doing so to a pipe
 that has already been tested for integrity and not worrying about dry
 fits, unconnected pieces, etc. as we would in a new system (property
 damage), nor full of air as we experience in a new system (potential
 explosive decompression and the resultant bodily injury). We can also
 assume that we are adding water to supplement a flow that is already
 occurring and therefore there are holes (discharging heads) already
 in the pipe. Unless we unleash the damned hellish hounds of hundreds
 of pounds of over-pressurization upon the system I doubt that we will
 even have the mildest of water hammer. And as a side note we have
 hooked this FDC up to the truck because the building is on fire and
 already experiencing property damage. Now should the pipe run from the
 FDC be as short as possible? Certainly the dry portion, and we can
 limit an FDC dry run of 100 feet (or more, or less) by placing the FDC
 check valve as close as practical to the FDC itself. But if placing it
 at the riser is the most practical location (my ridiculous 100 foot
 run excepted) then so be it. I wonder how much pressure I would have
 to apply to a CPVC system with only one head flowing before I've
 created a situation that would rupture piping and connections already
 tested to 200 psi in a static state? I'd bet more than my fire engine
 could generate.

 On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Thomas Watt tw...@cfl.rr.com wrote:
 IMHO, no.

 The FDC check should be installed as close as possible to the FDC to
 eliminate the dry run.

 From the Harvel install guide:
 When pressure testing, the sprinkler system shall be slowly filled

 with water and the air bled from the highest and farthest sprinkler

 heads before pressure testing is applied. Air must be removed from

 piping systems (plastic or metal) to prevent it from being locked in

 the system when pressure is applied. Entrapped air can generate

 excessive surge pressures that can result in bodily injury and/or

 property damage, regardless of the piping materials used.

 - Original Message -
 From: R Richardson r.richard...@seattle.gov
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 1:04 PM
 Subject: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC

 We are reviewing a proposal for a wet pipe sprinkler system using CPVC
 pipe. However, there is a run of CPVC pipe between the FDC and the riser
 that is dry, is this standard practice or acceptable?

 Thanks,

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

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Re: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC

2009-05-16 Thread Thomas Watt

IMHO, no.

The FDC check should be installed as close as possible to the FDC to 
eliminate the dry run.

From the Harvel install guide:
When pressure testing, the sprinkler system shall be slowly filled

with water and the air bled from the highest and farthest sprinkler

heads before pressure testing is applied. Air must be removed from

piping systems (plastic or metal) to prevent it from being locked in

the system when pressure is applied. Entrapped air can generate

excessive surge pressures that can result in bodily injury and/or

property damage, regardless of the piping materials used.



- Original Message - 
From: R Richardson r.richard...@seattle.gov
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 1:04 PM
Subject: CPVC w/o water between riser and FDC


 We are reviewing a proposal for a wet pipe sprinkler system using CPVC 
 pipe.  However, there is a run of CPVC pipe between the FDC and the riser 
 that is dry, is this standard practice or acceptable?

 Thanks,

 Rich Richardson
 Seattle Fire Department

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Re: Tyco Update on Allied ABFII - Steel Coated Pipe and CPVC

2009-05-14 Thread Thomas Watt

Anybody got an MSDS  for this pipe? What exactly are these
chemical components of the anti-microbial coating and are they harmful to 
pipefitters?

BTW some of y'all might be interested in my new project. The new Fire 
Station #1 in
Downtown Orlando. It's a big one!

http://www.cityoforlando.net/fire/Firehouse1%20renderings.htm




- Original Message - 
From: Terri Leyton te...@protectiondesign.com
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: Tyco Update on Allied ABFII - Steel Coated Pipe and CPVC


 Tyco Update on Allied ABF(r)
 Steel Coated Pipe and CPVC



 The following notice has been issued by Tyco Fire Suppression  Building
 Products regarding CPVC compatibility.

 Since its introduction in 2004, Allied Tube  Conduit's ABF(r) II
 anti-microbial steel sprinkler pipe has been installed and successfully
 maintained in millions of feet of steel-CPVC applications. Recently,
 Allied and Tyco Fire Suppression  Building Products became aware of a
 small number of sites with environmental stress cracking (ESC) failures
 of CPVC pipe and fittings. Some customers have expressed concern that
 the ESC was caused by chemical components of the anti-microbial coating
 on the ABF II coated steel pipe. To put this into context, these
 instances of failure involve less than one tenth of one percent of the
 installed base in combined systems in the Americas.

 ESC failures can occur in CPVC pipe and fittings when exposed to
 sufficient levels of stress and when an environmental stress cracking
 agent is present in sufficient concentration over a period of time. An
 ESC failure results in cracks in the wall of the pipe or fitting. These
 cracks typically result in weeping, dripping, and other small leaks from
 the fire sprinkler system.

 In response to recent concerns, Tyco gathered a team of scientists and
 industry experts working in conjunction with Lubrizol and customers to
 investigate. Tyco's investigation has included an analysis of how the
 ABF II coating may be released and transported through the piping
 system, and how it may interact with other components of the system.

 The initial findings of the investigation suggest that in some
 circumstances, components of the ABF II coating may wash from the
 interior of the steel pipe and transport to downstream CPVC pipe and
 fittings. In combination with ancillary products used in the system,
 such as cutting oils and lubricants, the ABF II coating components may
 collect in sufficient concentration and in some circumstances pose a
 potential risk to the CPVC.

 However, in the instances of CPVC failure investigated and not linked to
 poor quality CPVC pipe or fittings, unusually high mechanical stress has
 been present. Unusually high amounts of mechanical stress create an
 environment that makes CPVC pipe and fittings more susceptible to ESC.
 For example, some approved hangers have been found to put an excessive
 mechanical stress on the pipe. Tyco is continuing to analyze the causes
 and effects of mechanical stresses on the safety tolerances of CPVC pipe
 and fittings used in conjunction with ABF II coated steel pipe. Because
 steel-CPVC systems are installed using a variety of techniques and in a
 myriad of diverse environments, there are a large number of mechanical
 and chemical variables and combinations that a comprehensive
 investigation must include.

 It is important to note that Tyco's analysis to date does not indicate
 an inherent risk associated solely with using ABF II coated steel pipe
 in combination with CPVC pipe and fittings. As a conservative approach
 while the investigation continues, Tyco recommends that ABF II coated
 steel pipe not be used in new systems containing CPVC. For these
 applications, Allied will continue to make uncoated steel pipe
 available. ABF II coated steel pipe should still be used in all-steel
 systems, where it provides industry-leading anti-microbial protection.

 The overwhelming majority of installations of ABF II coated steel pipe
 with CPVC pipe and fittings have provided reliable service without
 incident for many years. Based on this experience and the initial
 findings, Tyco does not believe that previously installed systems are at
 an increased risk of ESC failure. For systems that are already installed
 or in the process of being installed, Tyco does not recommend removal of
 the CPVC or ABF II coated steel pipe.

 For additional information or questions, visit
 http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102558568972s=739e=001lDIXBoYU8jcRfyYWud2CN
 gEnSp_lMORuxA0h4CyiqGRosqybbJzhhOVL3y0PeIhQVPZPiA_RtXXp-dMPTG-6TiiXnkESF
 lBWEG_ilCcvIMejJZI1KJoEpHikOpr6X8Hh6yvkC5qdw2Y=
 www.alliedtube-sprinkler.com/cpvc or contact Tyco at 1-800-890-2278 in
 the US and 1-708-339-1610 ext. 7301 outside the US.

 As a responsible leader in the fire sprinkler industry, Tyco is
 committed to the industry and its customers. Tyco will continue its
 investigation, testing, and analysis to enable it

Re: Servicing and adjusting grooved joints

2009-05-01 Thread Thomas Watt

 I seem to remember this same discussion concerning access panels at each 
joint being debated sometime last year. I believe it was a military base. 
Check archives. 

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ALF Sprinkler Save

2009-04-26 Thread Thomas Watt

Wait...does this go on Chat or Forum???

http://www.wftv.com/news/19293835/detail.html
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Re: Residential systems in California

2009-02-19 Thread Thomas Watt


To address the issue of backflow prevention, one discussion the
committee is having is the viability of placing a toilet on the
hydraulic end of the sprinkler system ...

Great. Now I have to learn to install toilets. Will this function as the 
inspectors test too? Won't the alarm sound whenever you flush?


What is the definition of Task Force anyhow?


Thomas




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Bedbug Treatment

2009-02-06 Thread Thomas Watt

Hello group,

Several months ago I was sent to remove the (12)sprinklers from a hotel room so 
that it could be heat treated for a bedbug infestation. This process involves 
heating the room to over 130 degrees. My instructions were to remove the 
sprinklers and replace with nipple/caps until the next day when the sprinklers 
could be replaced.

I know in many cases the heating equipment is truck mounted and the heating 
ducts are stretched into the unit to be treated. In this case, the 
heater/blowers were all portable units. In retrospect, with all of these 
appliances in this unprotected space in an occupied wing of this hotel, this 
was a catastrophe waiting to happen. 

1) Could I have replaced the 155* heads with intermediate temp heads?
2) Could I reuse these heads for the next bedbug job?

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Test

2008-12-23 Thread Thomas Watt



testing
1
2
3...
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Re: Lubricant

2008-10-28 Thread Thomas Watt

Lithium grease in spray can. 


Good stuff.

Thomas
-recently laid off service tech
in Forida-
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Man Charged With Stealing Fire Meters

2008-06-21 Thread Thomas Watt

The real shame is he's one of us.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6818106version=2locale=EN-USlayoutCode=TSTYpageId=1.1.1

...a lurking fitter
   Tom Watt
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