Re: Closets / cabinets
Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]to%3ASprinklerforum-reques [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Closets / cabinets
In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] to%3ASprinklerforum-reques [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
did a job in White Plains, NY. All the cabinets are sprinklered. It is a 3-story department store From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 07:59:54 -0700 Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Closets / cabinets
I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email
RE: Closets / cabinets
Somehow we've ventured far away from the original issue, a cabinet with shelves two feet apart. Not a closet, not an entertainment center, more of something to put clothes or towels or linens or a portable meth lab into. If the shelves are only two feet apart where is the sprinkler going to go? If you put a sprinkler at the top of the cabinet what is the sprinkler going to do three levels down, probably nothing. What good is a shelf with a 3-4 obstruction in it? With even the most creative of arguments it would a struggle to convince anyone that protection would be required in light of what is so clearly spelled out in the Standard. But there is always the exceptionally enlightened AHJ that might argue down some other path. sigh Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel
RE: Closets / cabinets
I'm with Allan. You can call it furniture if the floor is covered to code from the overhead system. Furniture normally sits on a floor already covered by sprinkler. The code on furniture gets you out of the second head covering the area, not the first. Soffits, lintels, etc. may get in the way. If the floor isn't covered then you have a head under the soffit for example and not in the furniture below the soffit. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myles Knebel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Good question. I would say,the closet is now a cabinet. I looked up cabinets in the index however I could not find 8.9.4.1.3.3. in the 2007 addition (missing). No references say anything about sprinklers inside cabinets so in my opinion the cabiets don't need to be sprinklered. Ergo On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, A.P.Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An office (light hazard) has several closets that have existing sprinklers. Part of the renovation is to remove the closet doors and provide built-in millwork recessed into the closet space. Essentially a storage cabinet made of wood with shelves at about every 2 feet and wooden doors. Is there any logical argument to provide or not provide sprinklers within this space? As a general rule we don't sprinkler furniture (although I don't think NFPA says it explicitly). Any comments? Tony ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Closets / cabinets
I go with what Ron said. Also note that obstructions (shelves) are not an issue in a closet. Also it is A.8.15.8.2 that states that sprinklers are not required within furniture is the old text and it was expanded in 07 (and put within the standard ) at 8.1.1(7). That section also states you can attach the furniture to the structure. It doesn't say you can put it within a closet. Roland On Nov 5, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Ron Greenman wrote: I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Come to the State of Michigan. The head would be required in this closet. Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette (P)906-475-9955 Ext 101 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Somehow we've ventured far away from the original issue, a cabinet with shelves two feet apart. Not a closet, not an entertainment center, more of something to put clothes or towels or linens or a portable meth lab into. If the shelves are only two feet apart where is the sprinkler going to go? If you put a sprinkler at the top of the cabinet what is the sprinkler going to do three levels down, probably nothing. What good is a shelf with a 3-4 obstruction in it? With even the most creative of arguments it would a struggle to convince anyone that protection would be required in light of what is so clearly spelled out in the Standard. But there is always the exceptionally enlightened AHJ that might argue down some other path. sigh Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Seidel Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets In situations like this the room's floor area now extends into the former closet's footprint. Therefore the sprinkler coverage needs to account for this recess in the wall. In other words if you call it furniture then it must occupy a space as furniture would. As we all well know, the standard cannot fit every situation, but there needs to be some accounting for these conditions that would make sense for the AHJ. For an extreme example, I do not think there would be an agreement to ignore former closets as such (assume they were 36 deep) when EC sprinklers are used at their maximum distance from the wall where the closets were. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 7:29 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's furniture. No sprinklers within. Well, unless someone is going to occupy it. NFPA 13, 2007, 8.1(7) [cid:658182813@05112008-3391] Craig L
RE: Closets / cabinets
But it's not being described as a closet. Maybe if we had pictures or drawings it would be clearer. What I've seen is often called a built-in. It is an area of the wall, recessed to accept a piece of furniture such as for linen storage or for a stereo systems or other such uses. But they are not a clothes closet, you can't walk into them. I still want someone to describe how a sprinkler would function in a SHELF unit with shelves 2ft apart and someone stacking towels or shoes or other such objects in that 24 space. If we were to sprinkle the built-in linen shelves why not put one in the built-in refrigerator? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Craig Leadbetter Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Come to the State of Michigan. The head would be required in this closet. Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette (P)906-475-9955 Ext 101 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:47 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Somehow we've ventured far away from the original issue, a cabinet with shelves two feet apart. Not a closet, not an entertainment center, more of something to put clothes or towels or linens or a portable meth lab into. If the shelves are only two feet apart where is the sprinkler going to go? If you put a sprinkler at the top of the cabinet what is the sprinkler going to do three levels down, probably nothing. What good is a shelf with a 3-4 obstruction in it? With even the most creative of arguments it would a struggle to convince anyone that protection would be required in light of what is so clearly spelled out in the Standard. But there is always the exceptionally enlightened AHJ that might argue down some other path. sigh Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 6:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So based on that would you provide a sprinkler below every shelf in order to adequately protect it? If we're going to hold to code, then you need to look at shelf storage requirements. If you read the description of the revision, I read it that the open floor area of the closet will now be part of the shelf system cabinet. There is no floor open to the room, there are doors on the unit. And protecting closet, well I can kind of accept, but a shelving unit with doors on the front, with no floor, well sorry but that just sounds silly. At some point reason needs to prevail. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http
RE: Closets / cabinets
Generally Furniture would not extend up to the ceiling, and so not be blocking the spray pattern, that developed for the room. A converted closet will since there is a lintel over what used to be the door that extends to the ceiling. The secondary issue is if the area was included in the area of protection provided by the sprinklers in the room, formerly the Adjoining room? If not some method of protection should be supplied, unless a specific exception can be met. A single head at the top of the closet/linen cabinet should suffice. If you add 14-15 Gpm to a 3x3 space, that cooling effect will be huge, and while water may not directly contact the burning materials, the normally loose fitting shelves of a cabinet, will allow the water to wet the interior surfaces of the cabinet all the way to the floor. So unless this is a Suppression mode system, I would say containment was the likely result, if a fire occurred in the cabinet/closet with a single sprinkler head at the top. My two peso's, and well worth it, Se? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets I go with what Ron said. Also note that obstructions (shelves) are not an issue in a closet. Also it is A.8.15.8.2 that states that sprinklers are not required within furniture is the old text and it was expanded in 07 (and put within the standard ) at 8.1.1(7). That section also states you can attach the furniture to the structure. It doesn't say you can put it within a closet. Roland On Nov 5, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Ron Greenman wrote: I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Actually it's a Tetrahedron. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Yeah, yeah, now you had to go ruin the fun with all that techno-jargon stuff. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets We would not need to Sprinkler a Residential Refrigerator, because we rely on the magnetic seal to keep air out and food fresh, hence the old fire tri angle wouldn't work until you open the door, and exposed the fire hazard to the air as well as the room sprinkler. Does the room sprinkler put out or contain the fire in the fridge? Hell no! When you jump back from that burst of flame as you opened the door, the inclined plane hinges will close it for you, returning the situation to the lop sided triangle again as soon as the air is used up. You might want to swear off that 8 alarm chili, or call Tom D. cause he'll want to get some before it's all gone. But that's another story. As far as commercial refrigerator's go, we do sprinkler them when we can actually walk inside it. Otherwise we once again rely on the Automatically closing doors to break the tri angle of fire on the smaller ones. Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 If we were to sprinkle the built-in linen shelves why not put one in the built-in refrigerator? Craig L. Prahl, CET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
We would not need to Sprinkler a Residential Refrigerator, because we rely on the magnetic seal to keep air out and food fresh, hence the old fire tri angle wouldn't work until you open the door, and exposed the fire hazard to the air as well as the room sprinkler. Does the room sprinkler put out or contain the fire in the fridge? Hell no! When you jump back from that burst of flame as you opened the door, the inclined plane hinges will close it for you, returning the situation to the lop sided triangle again as soon as the air is used up. You might want to swear off that 8 alarm chili, or call Tom D. cause he'll want to get some before it's all gone. But that's another story. As far as commercial refrigerator's go, we do sprinkler them when we can actually walk inside it. Otherwise we once again rely on the Automatically closing doors to break the tri angle of fire on the smaller ones. Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 If we were to sprinkle the built-in linen shelves why not put one in the built-in refrigerator? Craig L. Prahl, CET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Below is a copy of the rule for the State of Michigan on any Office of Fire Safety reviewed project. We were also directed to protect built in shelving unit similar to the ones describe even though they were just being used to store adult diaper and sheets. Bureau of Fire Services Informational Interpretation PR 07-01, Sprinkler Coverage in Closets and Wardrobes for all Fully Sprinklered Facilities, in accordance with National Fire Protection Association standards 13, 13R or 13D, regulated by the Bureau of Fire Services. 1. Built - in closets shall be protected by placing a sprinkler head inside. 2. Wardrobes over 36 cubic feet shall be protected by placing a sprinkler head in side. 3. Wardrobes 36 cubic feet and under shall be protected by placing a sprinkler head inside or placing a sprinkler head within 3 feet directly in front of the wardrobe. Craig Leadbetter Safeguard of Marquette (P)906-475-9955 Ext 101 (F) 906-475-5474 (C) 906-362-5393 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Generally Furniture would not extend up to the ceiling, and so not be blocking the spray pattern, that developed for the room. A converted closet will since there is a lintel over what used to be the door that extends to the ceiling. The secondary issue is if the area was included in the area of protection provided by the sprinklers in the room, formerly the Adjoining room? If not some method of protection should be supplied, unless a specific exception can be met. A single head at the top of the closet/linen cabinet should suffice. If you add 14-15 Gpm to a 3x3 space, that cooling effect will be huge, and while water may not directly contact the burning materials, the normally loose fitting shelves of a cabinet, will allow the water to wet the interior surfaces of the cabinet all the way to the floor. So unless this is a Suppression mode system, I would say containment was the likely result, if a fire occurred in the cabinet/closet with a single sprinkler head at the top. My two peso's, and well worth it, Se? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets I go with what Ron said. Also note that obstructions (shelves) are not an issue in a closet. Also it is A.8.15.8.2 that states that sprinklers are not required within furniture is the old text and it was expanded in 07 (and put within the standard ) at 8.1.1(7). That section also states you can attach the furniture to the structure. It doesn't say you can put it within a closet. Roland On Nov 5, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Ron Greenman wrote: I tend to agree with Allen if I'm understanding his argument correctly. And correct me if I'm misstating the thought but I don't think he meant that the recess did not necessarily have to have separate protection but that the floor area had to be accounted for by some sprinkler. If I buy a free standing entertainment center I have a potential fire hazard (lots of plugs and cords) and the area of the building it occupies is protected by the overhead system. I am not going to worry about a fire inside it until that fire breaches the cabinet itself. By the same token if I have a built-in entertainment center I have the same hazard and must consider the building area it occupies if the fire breaches the cabinet. If that occurs then the building must be protected (protecting the cabinet in both cases is my concern, not society's, and could be addressed by a wonder gas if I so desire). Now if I use a former closet for my cabinet, using a face frame, with or without doors, and the former closet door lintel is an obstruction, and the closet does not meet any of the closet exemption rules then it would require a sprinkler on the closet side of the lintel. The same issues would apply if I just put a free standing cabinet in the closet opening. The cabinet parts are just a distraction in this discussion. The issues are the lintel (i.e.: obstruction) and sprinkler spacing rules. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: Closets / cabinets
Actually it's a Tetrahedron. Gee I thought those things were extinct? I learn so much here.. ;) Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Actually it's a Tetrahedron. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Does anyone know exactly when the Fire Triangle went 3D?? Can I just read it with Navis or do I need a drafting engine? I'm so confused ... Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Actually it's a Tetrahedron. Gee I thought those things were extinct? I learn so much here.. ;) Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 12:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Closets / cabinets Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Actually it's a Tetrahedron. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3587 (20081105) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3587 (20081105) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Closets / cabinets
Thom, Tetrahedron. We are getting off but this is an important line of discussion relative to what we are protecting. I'd say that the best way to look at this is that if you removed all the stuff we put in a building that isn't really part of the building, including built-in furniture (cabinets, appliances, etc.) then the question is, is everything left covered by the sprinklers? Is there sheetrock behind the cabinet, no lintel or other obstruction, and does the room sprinkler cover the alcove (closet) per spacing rules? If the answer is yes to all these questions then no sprinkler would be necessary inside the alcove (closet), but if the answer is no to any of those questions I'd say the area enclosed by cabinet needs to be covered regardless of shelving or other contents. Essentially we're taking about a combustible concealed space when the doors are closed, or, when a lintel is present, an obstructed space, or, when the space is beyond the spacing rules of the room sprinkler, an unprotected area within a sprinklered structure. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We would not need to Sprinkler a Residential Refrigerator, because we rely on the magnetic seal to keep air out and food fresh, hence the old fire tri angle wouldn't work until you open the door, and exposed the fire hazard to the air as well as the room sprinkler. Does the room sprinkler put out or contain the fire in the fridge? Hell no! When you jump back from that burst of flame as you opened the door, the inclined plane hinges will close it for you, returning the situation to the lop sided triangle again as soon as the air is used up. You might want to swear off that 8 alarm chili, or call Tom D. cause he'll want to get some before it's all gone. But that's another story. As far as commercial refrigerator's go, we do sprinkler them when we can actually walk inside it. Otherwise we once again rely on the Automatically closing doors to break the tri angle of fire on the smaller ones. Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 If we were to sprinkle the built-in linen shelves why not put one in the built-in refrigerator? Craig L. Prahl, CET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Yeah! For Now! Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 Actually it's a Tetrahedron. David Autry ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Closets / cabinets
Then do you put sprinklers in kitchen cabinets or pantries or bathroom cabinets? To what point is this taken? I guess my point in all this is that sprinkler protection is that sprinklers are not an accessory most people put at the top of their home décor list. If we don't have clear Code direction and we're just wingin' it on places we feel should have sprinklers, it makes us look a bit ridiculous and dilutes our cause. Should I put sprinklers behind and overhead of my entertainment center? Anyone have any statistics on fires beginning in residential pantry or linen closets? Sometimes we can be a bit overzealous to the point of being nonsensical. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 1:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Closets / cabinets Thom, Tetrahedron. We are getting off but this is an important line of discussion relative to what we are protecting. I'd say that the best way to look at this is that if you removed all the stuff we put in a building that isn't really part of the building, including built-in furniture (cabinets, appliances, etc.) then the question is, is everything left covered by the sprinklers? Is there sheetrock behind the cabinet, no lintel or other obstruction, and does the room sprinkler cover the alcove (closet) per spacing rules? If the answer is yes to all these questions then no sprinkler would be necessary inside the alcove (closet), but if the answer is no to any of those questions I'd say the area enclosed by cabinet needs to be covered regardless of shelving or other contents. Essentially we're taking about a combustible concealed space when the doors are closed, or, when a lintel is present, an obstructed space, or, when the space is beyond the spacing rules of the room sprinkler, an unprotected area within a sprinklered structure. On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We would not need to Sprinkler a Residential Refrigerator, because we rely on the magnetic seal to keep air out and food fresh, hence the old fire tri angle wouldn't work until you open the door, and exposed the fire hazard to the air as well as the room sprinkler. Does the room sprinkler put out or contain the fire in the fridge? Hell no! When you jump back from that burst of flame as you opened the door, the inclined plane hinges will close it for you, returning the situation to the lop sided triangle again as soon as the air is used up. You might want to swear off that 8 alarm chili, or call Tom D. cause he'll want to get some before it's all gone. But that's another story. As far as commercial refrigerator's go, we do sprinkler them when we can actually walk inside it. Otherwise we once again rely on the Automatically closing doors to break the tri angle of fire on the smaller ones. Yeah I know! The Tri angle of fire is OLD School, and someday it will be the Obelisk of fire, but I hope by then to have been put to the flame for the last time. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 If we were to sprinkle the built-in linen shelves why not put one in the built-in refrigerator? Craig L. Prahl, CET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
