Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
Final chance to comment on rules revision, go to: http://e-democracy.org/rules --- On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, John Birrenbach wrote: As I read and re-read this and what I posted yesterday the more and more I began to realize that what was built for Ireland, by Lowry, is what started the urban sprawl to begin with, and is the root of the whole metro area's current transit problems. We are sprawled out, not up. I happen to believe that you are precisely correct. We can assign blame to people or organizations or technologies all we want, but the simple fact is that this is, outside of my immediate 'hood, a sprawling prairie with few natural barriers like those Manhatten has. We were simply destined to keep going until we hit some kind of limiting size that made the lenght of commute unreasonable. And, I happen to think we are hitting that wall right about now. That's why it's time to act and start changing things, while we have a chance to experiement and learn. Another part of the problem that really needs to be talked about is the density of population per acre. It is my general understanding that those Rail transit systems that work, not only for the consumer but are also less of a drain on limited tax dollars, are those in area's of extreme population density. I dunno about extreme, but high for sure. But you have to look at this as a dollars per rider thang. If we don't have the net ridership, we have to keep the dollars down. That's why I stress cheaper alternatives. It's like any other buiness. We don't have the density to operate a Wal-Mart high valume system. We have to have one that is more carefully targeted to the right audience, and really meets their needs. In the end, it can be much more rewarding, IMHO I look at who is gonna end up paying for the vast majority of this. I wonder what the rider costs vs the actual costs of setup and running are going to be. Anyone know what the costs per passenger are for the Hiawatha line vs the ticket price? Typically, LRT costs 35 cents a mile to operate. This particular line was expensive to build, but I do not think an appropriate amortization is included in that 35 cents so do with that figure what you will. This compares with 40 and more cents for a car (on average) and 53 cents for a bus (ouch!). The amount riders pay for mass transit is a stunningly consistant 12-15 cents per mile, regardless. This is roughly equal to the variable cost of a car, which is to say maintenance and gasoline, but NOT purchase, inurance, etc. In other words, riders pay about the same as what it would cost to fire up the car, but they still have one. That means that for LRT there is typically 20-23 cents to make up, and I think Hiawatha is no different than average on that. Special arrangements and other income generate 6 cents average nationally, so the pot from government is about 14 cents per mile -- 5 from the Feds and 9 from state and local sources. Again, these are more national averages, but what I've seen of Hiawatha was right in line. The net subsidy to the car that I've been able to calculate is 3 cents per mile, incidentally. I have to agree with Eric that serious leadership needs to come from the County, serious money too if they want us to run outside the city. At the same time those other communities everyone is so quick to say the eventual routes will run through need to be involved as well... we don't need another 35E unconnected in the middle for three decades do we? Thanks. The County has done a good job really, but they always have it farmed out to consultants who really don't get in touch with the 'hoods enough, IMHO. They wind up with a pretty report, like the Red Rock one, and no one behind it. Sometimes, they have good ideas but sometimes they just tick people off. I think the real leadership has to be grassroots, which hasn't happened yet. Some sources: http://www.redrockrail.org http://www.nhhsrail.com/Chapter-7-Ridership_Fare_Revenue_and_Cost_Database.pdf http://www.friends4expo.org/lrstats.htm Erik Hare [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.comcast.net/~wabbitoid/ Irvine Park, West End, Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA, North America, Earth Fine Amish furniture, cedar chests, and crafts http://www.harmonycedar.com _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
[StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back - We're still missing the big picture here
Final chance to comment on rules revision, go to: http://e-democracy.org/rules --- While the nay-sayers keep talking about how mass transit won't work, a very important part of the equation has not been discussed. Today human beings are using fossil fuels at the rate of 80 MILLION BARRELS of oil a day, or 28 BILLION BARRELS a year. http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/oil.html http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/ene_oil_con http://www.bartleby.com/151/fields/82.html If we continue to use fossil fuels at this rate, (this does not include increased usage by Third World Countries such as China and India), we will delete all known petroleum reserves of 1,032,132 million barrels or 1.032 Trillion barrels in 35 to 37 years, well within the lifetime of a lot of people on this board. Even if we double the amount of known reserves, say to 2.064 Trillion barrels, and keep usage at the present level, we will delete most petroleum in 70 to 74 years. Thus it is critical that we begin to convert our transportation systems now, when there are funds and fuels available. Do you really want to own a home in Eden Prairie and Maplewood, or even further out, when gas hits the equivalent of $6.00, $7.00 of $10.00 a gallon or would you rather be able to walk from your front door to a street-car or light rail system run by electrcity? Unless we begin to make a huge shift to a hydrogen economy, created by wind and other renewables, come 50 to 100 years from now, the societal dislocations will be so severe we can't even begin to imagine the consequences today. Hopefully, I'll be 85 years old driving my hydrogen powered car with hydrogen created from tap water by my own wind turbine, but where are the plans? Dan Dobson Summit Hill --- John Birrenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Final chance to comment on rules revision, go to: http://e-democracy.org/rules --- At 2:18 PM -0600 11/9/04, Andy Driscoll wrote: after William (?) Lowry built Archbishop John Ireland's Grand Avenue streetcar line all the way out to the farm fields As I read and re-read this and what I posted yesterday the more and more I began to realize that what was built for Ireland, by Lowry, is what started the urban sprawl to begin with, and is the root of the whole metro area's current transit problems. We are sprawled out, not up. How Ironic that we are now looking at building is the very thing that allowed communities like Merriam Park to SPRAWL out from the city of St Paul and Mpls, which in turn eventually caused the very transit issues we see today. See how the best laid plans of Mice and Men can go awry? Another part of the problem that really needs to be talked about is the density of population per acre. It is my general understanding that those Rail transit systems that work, not only for the consumer but are also less of a drain on limited tax dollars, are those in area's of extreme population density. NY for example all those people living in apartments in the HEART of the city (yea there are commuters, but look at the population density of residents the vast majority of the systems users). When you look at some of these cities, you see massive towers, for MILES, packed with people. Here we have everyone spread out all over the place (thanks to planning in the early part of this century). I look at who is gonna end up paying for the vast majority of this. I wonder what the rider costs vs the actual costs of setup and running are going to be. Anyone know what the costs per passenger are for the Hiawatha line vs the ticket price? Is this a totally free ride at the expense of the taxpayers or is it's costs going to be born, eventually, by the riders? If it's going to be paid in total by ridership it seems to me that the population density of the cities doesn't make that happen, unless your able to drive and park at some station to ride the train. If the costs are born by the taxpayers then there is no reason to not start right now, it's only gonna get more expensive as time goes on. If it's a free ride for anyone who wants to get on, it would certainly increase ridership and reduce traffic on a scale never seen before. I have to agree with Eric that serious leadership needs to come from the County, serious money too if they want us to run outside the city. At the same time those other communities everyone is so quick to say the eventual routes will run through need to be involved as well... we don't need another 35E unconnected in the middle for three decades do we? -- Sincerely, John Birrenbach W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN === Political Business Consulting === http://www.birrenbach.com/ == The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, John Birrenbach wrote: LRT is very nice idea to bring people in and get them off the Interstates. But you have to do it smartly kinda like Chicago does. Pick a point (Union Station) and have all your communter trains from the burbs converge there, then it's just a matter of picking up either another train or a bus to reach your local destination. No where do Trolly's fit into a picture of a ever changing transit system needs. John, there's always the possibility that the larger number of people (thanks, Charlie!) that a streetcar carries, plus some big savings in operational costs since they are electric, would be justified once the main commuter rail was up and operating. Certainly, we should get things going with buses and learn a bit what has happened to the patterns of people moving first. But eventually streetcars may be a good idea. And if someone could convince me that they were a draw in and of themsevles as a novelty, that could also be another point. But yes, anytime people say, Here a technology that will solve your transportation needs! it's important to ask, What problem does this actually solve? To me, nothing is more important than to meet the needs of the passengers. That will require trying things much more than the eternal planning we do, and trying things out means that we have to keep the costs low so we can afford some level of failure, IMHO. Erik Hare [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.comcast.net/~wabbitoid/ Irvine Park, West End, Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA, North America, Earth Fine Amish furniture, cedar chests, and crafts http://www.harmonycedar.com _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
John makes some valid points, as do many of the posters regarding light rail or street cars. However, I would disagree that this metro area was designed for the auto. There was a very good street car system in place until our venerable Carl Pohlad and his friends destroyed it for his bus system. The cost for the installation of a rail system is large. But it also affords opportunities the current system of highways and byways. The one thing that a rail system can do that paved roads can't do is increase the amount of passengers without additional lanes of traffic. The cost of additional lanes of traffic is more than just the money it takes to acquire the land, and build it. The cost includes destruction of neighborhoods, added pollution etc. We may be a community of cars, but if you look most of the cars have only one person in it. Talk about an expensive proposition. Think about this. How fast could we build a light or heavy rail system, if the money we spend on cars and other modes of transportation annually were devoted to the rail system? Many of us seem to think its necessary that we have a car at hand. It allows us to go where we want to go when we want to go. Unfortunately, most of us also think its our right. Yet if you moved to Washington, New York Chicago and other cities, I think you would quickly change your mind. I have ridden the European, Salt Lake and the entire Portland systems. When in Washington, I only use the Metro. The wait is short. The rides are enjoyable and you don't have a whole lot of limitation to getting to where you want to go. In fact, the bus system works in partnership with the Metro. What can be better. I favor a spoke system. One spoke to St. Cloud through Maple Grove. One Spoke North to, Say, Hinkley, One South to Red Wing, Cannon Falls, and Rochester. One Spoke South west to Burnsville. One spoke West to Willmar. One Spoke North East to Stillwater. One East to Hudson. Of course there would be a link between St. Paul and Minneapolis. In many cases there are old rail lines that could be used. Yes, in many cases this would mean working within the current bike system to ensure that we wouldn't lose those amenities. Mike Fratto Payne Phalen John Birrenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/08/2004 8:36:49 PM I don't know I get conflicting ideas from the City... on one hand they have this idea of Street cars which well might look cutsie are really a pain and don't adjust to the needs, wants, or changing needs of the community (rail tracks and all). On the other you have what is on the Cities website (which you should really take a look at http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/maps/DowntownMaps/index.html ). It happens to show LRT going down Univerisity going in and out of Downtown through what looks like Robert St to the Union Depot. St Paul, Minneapolis the entire metro area was designed to be a place to drive your car (for goodness sakes we have one of the remaining DRIVE IN THEATERS in the East Metro). People in MN are attached to their cars and that is not likely to change. We might, if the transit system metro wide, is convenient enough, get a few people from WI, Northern, Western, and Southern suburbs to use LRT to get to and from work, but traveling to the airport and between DT's is not really gonna happen to as great a degree as I think (my Opinion) others believe. LRT is very nice idea to bring people in and get them off the Interstates. But you have to do it smartly kinda like Chicago does. Pick a point (Union Station) and have all your communter trains from the burbs converge there, then it's just a matter of picking up either another train or a bus to reach your local destination. No where do Trolly's fit into a picture of a ever changing transit system needs. The idea of connecting each of the DT's is nice, but not many are gonna wait for a train they will want to use their cars especially if it's a regular thing, but it is not really gonna solve the problem of 94, 280, 35W, 35E intersections being congested. What strikes me odd is that in one single swipe, the Native American's could shut the yam holes of everyone now wanting a piece of their pie, by building a LRT to the Hinkley Casino. Not only would it be usable as a commuter rail but also to bring people to their Casino. It would be a move that would make so many people happy it would be a coup in public relations state wide for all the tribes. -- Sincerely, John Birrenbach W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN === Political Business Consulting === http://www.birrenbach.com/ == The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/ == Six years on the council has trained me to feign interest for long periods of time Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004 +++ _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email:
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, John Birrenbach wrote: ...you have to do it smartly kinda like Chicago does. Pick a point (Union Station) and have all your communter trains from the burbs converge there ... A correction. Chicago's commuter trains do not all converge in a single location. In addition to Union Station, Chicago also has suburban commuter lines terminating at LaSalle Street station and Randolph Street station. This doesn't negate John's point, of course. It's important to have the various lines intersecting so that the entire system is useable without having to go from one mode to another (i.e., it shouldn't be necessary to take a bus to get from one rail line to another). However, I'm not so sure that it's necessary to have the lines converging at a single point. It seems that would require an in and out ride anytime one's origin and destination were on different lines. There are probably other configurations with distributed intersections that would work better (NYC's or Paris' subways e.g.) More seriously, John's argument that the Twin Cities is designed around the automobile may, at this point in time, be true (It wasn't always so). However, that doesn't mean that that design is appropriate for the future. Can an almost exclusively car-based system accomodate a million more people in the region without causing immense problems. Remember, miles driven don't increase in a linear fashion as a region grows in size. They increase geometrically. We simply can't depend on roads and freeways to deal with the traffic that will be present in the not allthat distant future. I happen to believe that a combination of heavy rail, light rail (including streetcars) and buses has to be added to the road system to keep us mobile. It will be expensive to build but the costs of not building this system will be large as well. And let's recognize too that we can learn much from looking at how other regions have dealt with the problem, both here in North America and abroad. We can emulate solutions that work and avoid the mistakes that are evident in some places (Atlanta's freeways, e.g.) Charlie Swope Ward 1 _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
Please don't get me wrong with what I am about to write, I am all in favor of Mass Transit and alevieating all of the problems associated with petro-chemically driven vehicles, BUT. I think the point I was attempting to make is that unlike alot of other cities, we are very spread out, we gave into roads as our main mode of transportation during horse and buggy days, and MN's for some reason have a real tie to their car. Unlike cities that, granted because of cars but also delivery trucks, have developed large expansive underground and above ground tansit systems (like New York city), and still have reached grid lock, we have not reach a point where total gridlock has been achieved (yes we are on our way, but it's not like Rush hour in LA yet). All of which are difficulties to overcome when it comes to mass transit that does what it's designed to do. Get people out of cars and onto buses or rail. They really need a reason to do so. One is cause they see a express bus or train moving past them as they sit in traffic, the other is that it is convenient for them to access. Yes we do have alot of rail lines in the metro area. Why? because we are also (were also) a major hub for freight transit around the northern corridor of the US. That doesn't mean that they can be used (being heavy rail lines, locations, etc.. ) or that the owners will allow such use (frankly if I was an owner of the right of way I wouldn't be looking to add to the liability to maintain the track for commuter rails). We are also a continuely changing community. The developments in St Paul on both sides of the River, which at one time were places of business and housing. Then flood plans changed them to industrial and airports, now we are going back to putting housing and business back down there again. At one time the East side was the place to live and work then not then it was again, Grand Ave at one time was all residential, now it's largely commercial and educational. I recall looking at University Ave and seeing Crack Street, now it's a great street to ride from the Capitol to Mpls, it's thriving. We are a community without any sort of real long term vision of what we want to be, and if we do come up with a vision it only lasts as long as an administration or city council then the vision or focus changes. We are like 7 little cities, each with it's own agenda, crammed into one. With some few exceptions, in such a place it's really hard to put into place something as locked in as RAIL (be it light or trolly cars). There are alternatives to buses that run on Petro products, there are hybrid buses, there are natural gas buses, there are buses that could be designed to run on fuel cell technology developed by NASA in the 60's. For an area that is in a constant state of flux the vast majority of the real transit needs to be in easily changeable routes, that is obtained presently via buses, unobtainable with any sort of rail as the main mode of transportation. Does anyone remember the Trolly Cars (actually fancy old fashioned buses) they had running around DT for awhile a few years back? Are they still running? There fuel for the fire :-) -- Sincerely, John Birrenbach W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN === Political Business Consulting === http://www.birrenbach.com/ == The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/ == Six years on the council has trained me to feign interest for long periods of time Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004 +++ _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
At 2:18 PM -0600 11/9/04, Andy Driscoll wrote: Let me correct this base assumption right off the top. The core cities of Minneapolis/St. Paul were, in fact, designed for and using trolley transportation from about 1870-on - after William (?) Lowry built Archbishop John Ireland's Grand Avenue streetcar line all the way out to the farm fields near the river where St. Thomas College was built and expanding even then. Lowry had a lock on the public transit system in the cities - what became the Twin Cities Street Railway system, the Twin Cities Rapid Transit. One line doesn't change the fact that 99% of the roads didn't have Rapid Transit. Nor that Long before there was any sort of Rail service into the cities, there were streets with horses and buggies on them. See you also fail to mention that back in 1870 Minneapolis was a long trip away, the space between DT St Paul and DT Mpls was forest and farmlands, with some small developments as the century changed and we moved forward (and the property was sold off to people by these very individuals that built the rail line you talk about, so it was more in their economic interest than any community interest to put in this spar lines). These developments came along the railroad that did at that time run between Mpls and St Paul on it's way west to OR, and the spar lines developed along the route. Hence Merriam Park and a few others, but it was more like AMTRACK passenger service than it was anything like what we would now consider commuter transportation. We have a long way to go, and I see today that they must be conducting some sort of test as there is a Limited Stop Express Bus running down W7th St, DT to the Airport and Mall of America. But nah I heard they would never test that to see if it works would they :-) -- Sincerely, John Birrenbach W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN === Political Business Consulting === http://www.birrenbach.com/ == The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/ == Six years on the council has trained me to feign interest for long periods of time Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004 +++ _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
[StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
I know that a couple of people have tried to post this to SPIF. John succeeded, but the text was a little disjointed, so let me try once again. - Bring the streetcars back! Saint Paul Launches a Civic Dialogue Wednesday Nov. 17, 2004 Thursday, Nov. 18, 2004 Former Portland City Commissioner Charlie Hales will be speaking at four different events in Saint Paul on Nov. 17-18, 2004. Hales is a transit planning principal at HDR Engineering, working with communities on transit options. As a member of the Portland City Council from 1992 through 2002, Hales was the driving force behind the effort to raise $58 million in bonds to create the Portland Streetcar, the nation's first modern streetcar. With the success of the new Hiawatha LRT line, Saint Paul welcomes the opportunity to explore streetcars as a way to link downtown arts, entertainment and business with our city's vibrant neighborhoods for residents and visitors alike. On Wednesday, Nov. 17, 3:30 p.m. - Charlie will address the Saint Paul City Council at its regular meeting, which will be televised on St. Paul Cable Channel 18. Wednesday, Nov. 17, 2004, 7 to 8:30 p.m. Public Event: Bringing Back the Streetcars Minnesota History Center, 3M Auditorium, St. Paul HDR Transit Planning Principal Charlie Hales is helping to revive the electric streetcar as a popular, ef. cient, and cost-effective transit option in cities across the U.S. Charlie shares his experiences in this presentation, as both Twin Cities consider reviving the streetcar on lines like the Midtown Greenway and Grand Avenue. From 6 to 7 p.m., visit the exhibit Going Places: The Mystique of Mobility to enjoy archival streetcar film footage and read riders' stories. Wednesday, Nov. 17, 11:30-1:00 p.m. Brown Bag Lunchtime Talk for Activists and Engineers: The Nuts and Bolts of Streetcars Saint Paul City Hall, Room 40, 15 West Kellogg Blvd., St. Paul Transit enthusiasts, transportation planners, neighborhood activists, public works engineers and interested members of the public are invited to join Charlie to talk about how to start planning for St. Paul streetcar. Bring your own lunch and RSVP to reserve a chair by calling Jane Prince at 651/266-8641. Pop machines available. Thursday, Nov. 18, 8-9 a.m. --- Streetcars, LRT and Buses: Regional Transit Leaders and Charlie Hales Macalester Campus Center, John B. Davis Lecture Hall, Grand Snelling, St. Paul Charlie will discuss how streetcars can enhance our region's multi-modal transit system by linking downtown and neighborhood residents, workers and visitors. A responder panel of regional transit and business leaders will respond. Coffee and Rolls. Presented with support from the City of Saint Paul, the Minnesota History Center, Macalester College, University UNITED, the Capitol/River Council, Merriam Park Community Council, Midway Transportation Management Organization, Capital City Partnership, HDR Engineering, Inc., Dayton's Bluff District 4 Community Council, Macalester Groveland Community Council. If you have questions about any of these events, call the Saint Paul City Council at 651/266-8641. Russ Stark Executive Director Midway Transportation Management Organization (TMO) 1954 University Avenue, Suite 9 St. Paul, MN 55104 651-644-5108 -- = Tim Erickson http://www.politalk.com St. Paul, MN - USA 651-643-0722 [EMAIL PROTECTED] iChat/AIM: stpaultim = _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
I think the main discussion at this point is about an east-west streetcar line running around downtown and possibly along Selby or Grand. I'm quite certain a line out along West 7th is not the focus of the effort. There's already a coordinated effort to bring a similar streetcar from Uptown along the Midtown Greenway in Minneapolis (just north of Lake), and one thought is this could connect with that line, possibly via the 26th Street railroad bridge over the Mississippi. This effort is being promoted by different people than the West 7th busway, under different circumstances. This is being described from the outset as a Civic Dialogue. I think there's a real attempt to get a neighborhood-level discussion going before going forward. In Minneapolis, for example, it is a non-profit called the Midtown Greenway Coalition advancing the streetcar concept, which is made up basically of representatives from all the surrounding neighborhood organizations. But that about exhausts my knowledge on the project - anyone who has important questions can to go to one of the forums. Bob Spaulding Downtown Saint Paul Resident --- Bring the streetcars back! Saint Paul Launches a Civic Dialogue Wednesday Nov. 17, 2004 Thursday, Nov. 18, 2004 Former Portland City Commissioner Charlie Hales will be speaking at four different events in Saint Paul on Nov. 17-18, 2004. Hales is a transit planning principal at HDR Engineering, working with communities on transit options. As a member of the Portland City Council from 1992 through 2002, Hales was the driving force behind the effort to raise $58 million in bonds to create the Portland Streetcar, the nation's first modern streetcar. With the success of the new Hiawatha LRT line, Saint Paul welcomes the opportunity to explore streetcars as a way to link downtown arts, entertainment and business with our city's vibrant neighborhoods for residents and visitors alike. On Wednesday, Nov. 17, 3:30 p.m. - Charlie will address the Saint Paul City Council at its regular meeting, which will be televised on St. Paul Cable Channel 18. Wednesday, Nov. 17, 2004, 7 to 8:30 p.m. Public Event: Bringing Back the Streetcars Minnesota History Center, 3M Auditorium, St. Paul HDR Transit Planning Principal Charlie Hales is helping to revive the electric streetcar as a popular, efficient, and cost-effective transit option in cities across the U.S. Charlie shares his experiences in this presentation, as both Twin Cities consider reviving the streetcar on lines like the Midtown Greenway and Grand Avenue. From 6 to 7 p.m., visit the exhibit Going Places: The Mystique of Mobility to enjoy archival streetcar film footage and read riders' stories. Wednesday, Nov. 17, 11:30-1:00 p.m. Brown Bag Lunchtime Talk for Activists and Engineers: The Nuts and Bolts of Streetcars Saint Paul City Hall, Room 40, 15 West Kellogg Blvd., St. Paul Transit enthusiasts, transportation planners, neighborhood activists, public works engineers and interested members of the public are invited to join Charlie to talk about how to start planning for St. Paul streetcar. Bring your own lunch and RSVP to reserve a chair by calling Jane Prince at 651/266-8641. Pop machines available. Thursday, Nov. 18, 8-9 a.m. --- Streetcars, LRT and Buses: Regional Transit Leaders and Charlie Hales Macalester Campus Center, John B. Davis Lecture Hall, Grand Snelling, St. Paul Charlie will discuss how streetcars can enhance our region's multi-modal transit system by linking downtown and neighborhood residents, workers and visitors. A responder panel of regional transit and business leaders will respond. Coffee and Rolls. Presented with support from the City of Saint Paul, the Minnesota History Center, Macalester College, University UNITED, the CapitolRiver Council, Merriam Park Community Council, Midway Transportation Management Organization, Capital City Partnership, HDR Engineering, Inc., Dayton's Bluff District 4 Community Council, Macalester Groveland Community Council. If you have questions about any of these events, call the Saint Paul City Council at 651/266-8641. Russ Stark Executive Director Midway Transportation Management Organization (TMO) 1954 University Avenue, Suite 9 St. Paul, MN 55104 651-644-5108 _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address:
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Bob Spaulding wrote: There's already a coordinated effort to bring a similar streetcar from Uptown along the Midtown Greenway in Minneapolis (just north of Lake), and one thought is this could connect with that line, possibly via the 26th Street railroad bridge over the Mississippi. That's all great! Personally, I'd use that bridge for a higher speed commuter rail, and run the streetcar along Lake through to Selby all the way -- connecting to the high speed line whenever reasonable. But the idea is the same, and it's all worth talking about. It's a very cheap alternative, comapred to what we normally talk about. This effort is being promoted by different people than the West 7th busway, under different circumstances. This is being described from the outset as a Civic Dialogue. I think there's a real attempt to get a neighborhood-level discussion going before going forward. To me, this is the key to success. The neighbors are the likely riders of such a system, and it's got to be about their needs. The other group that could benefit, Lake St Bizes, needs to be heard from as well as to what they need. How this fits into St Paul at Merriam park is also critical, and I think we have exactly the same issues. Erik Hare [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.comcast.net/~wabbitoid/ Irvine Park, West End, Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA, North America, Earth Fine Amish furniture, cedar chests, and crafts http://www.harmonycedar.com _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
I agree with Erik completely that the 26th Avenue bridge should be used for high speed rail, either light rail or the link for the NorthStar to Hastings Heavy rail lines. I just looked at the Portland Light Rail system and it runs all the way from Hillsboro on the west end of Portland to Gresham on the East. What is still missing is a coordinated long term plan like both Denver and Portland have. We first need to build one major eastwest line, (NOT ON UNIVERSITY AVENUE), connecting Minneapolis and Saint Paul and extending out to Excelsior, Minnetonka or Eden Prairie on the West and extending out to Hudson on the East. Then over the next 20 to 30 years arms can be built off that main line to Stillwater, Hastings, Rochester, Blaine and Coon Rapids, Apple Valley, and Maple Grove. But it is essential that we build the backbone of the system first and everything can grow from that. My preferred route is along I-94 to Hudson, across the 26th Avenue bridge, along the Greenway to the Hiawatha Corridor line and then west to Eden Prairie. Dan Dobson Saint Paul --- Erik Hare [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 8 Nov 2004, Bob Spaulding wrote: There's already a coordinated effort to bring a similar streetcar from Uptown along the Midtown Greenway in Minneapolis (just north of Lake), and one thought is this could connect with that line, possibly via the 26th Street railroad bridge over the Mississippi. That's all great! Personally, I'd use that bridge for a higher speed commuter rail, and run the streetcar along Lake through to Selby all the way -- connecting to the high speed line whenever reasonable. But the idea is the same, and it's all worth talking about. It's a very cheap alternative, comapred to what we normally talk about. This effort is being promoted by different people than the West 7th busway, under different circumstances. This is being described from the outset as a Civic Dialogue. I think there's a real attempt to get a neighborhood-level discussion going before going forward. To me, this is the key to success. The neighbors are the likely riders of such a system, and it's got to be about their needs. The other group that could benefit, Lake St Bizes, needs to be heard from as well as to what they need. How this fits into St Paul at Merriam park is also critical, and I think we have exactly the same issues. Erik Hare [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.comcast.net/~wabbitoid/ Irvine Park, West End, Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA, North America, Earth Fine Amish furniture, cedar chests, and crafts http://www.harmonycedar.com _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
I don't know I get conflicting ideas from the City... on one hand they have this idea of Street cars which well might look cutsie are really a pain and don't adjust to the needs, wants, or changing needs of the community (rail tracks and all). On the other you have what is on the Cities website (which you should really take a look at http://www.ci.stpaul.mn.us/maps/DowntownMaps/index.html ). It happens to show LRT going down Univerisity going in and out of Downtown through what looks like Robert St to the Union Depot. St Paul, Minneapolis the entire metro area was designed to be a place to drive your car (for goodness sakes we have one of the remaining DRIVE IN THEATERS in the East Metro). People in MN are attached to their cars and that is not likely to change. We might, if the transit system metro wide, is convenient enough, get a few people from WI, Northern, Western, and Southern suburbs to use LRT to get to and from work, but traveling to the airport and between DT's is not really gonna happen to as great a degree as I think (my Opinion) others believe. LRT is very nice idea to bring people in and get them off the Interstates. But you have to do it smartly kinda like Chicago does. Pick a point (Union Station) and have all your communter trains from the burbs converge there, then it's just a matter of picking up either another train or a bus to reach your local destination. No where do Trolly's fit into a picture of a ever changing transit system needs. The idea of connecting each of the DT's is nice, but not many are gonna wait for a train they will want to use their cars especially if it's a regular thing, but it is not really gonna solve the problem of 94, 280, 35W, 35E intersections being congested. What strikes me odd is that in one single swipe, the Native American's could shut the yam holes of everyone now wanting a piece of their pie, by building a LRT to the Hinkley Casino. Not only would it be usable as a commuter rail but also to bring people to their Casino. It would be a move that would make so many people happy it would be a coup in public relations state wide for all the tribes. -- Sincerely, John Birrenbach W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN === Political Business Consulting === http://www.birrenbach.com/ == The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/ == Six years on the council has trained me to feign interest for long periods of time Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004 +++ _ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
