[biofuels-biz] Survey Shows Support for School Bus Biodiesel Programs
http://www.earthvision.net/ColdFusion/News_Page1.cfm?NewsID=23441 Survey Shows Support for School Bus Biodiesel Programs EarthVision Environmental News http://www.earthvision.net/ JEFFERSON CITY, MO, December 20, 2002 - According to a national public opinion survey, 85 percent of those polled back the idea of schools receiving incentives to help pay biodiesel, a cleaner-burning fuel made from renewable fats or oils, such as soybean oil. According to the National Biodiesel Board, various scientific studies have raised public concern about the harmful effects of diesel exposure to children who ride school buses. Biodiesel works in diesel engines with few or no modifications. We first looked at using biodiesel because we have an obligation to protect the health of kids who ride on our school buses, said John Molnar, fleet administrator for the Hammond School District in northwest Indiana, which uses B20, a blend of 20 percent biodiesel and 80 percent diesel, in its buses. Several high profile studies have shown that diesel fumes may be harmful to children on buses. Using biodiesel is one of the easiest and best things we can do to protect the health of our kids. Based on biodiesel's clean-burning nature, the poll showed that 54 percent of the adults surveyed said it was very important to give incentives to schools for the purchase of biodiesel; and 31 percent said it was somewhat important. The Board points out that according to a recently released EPA report on biodiesel emissions data, emissions from pure biodiesel, when compared to conventional diesel fuel: cut overall particulate matter emissions by about 47 percent; reduce by 80 to 90 percent potential cancer causing compounds called Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) and nitrated PAH; show a 68 percent decrease of total unburned hydrocarbons, a contributing factor to smog and ozone; and cut carbon monoxide by about 48 percent. For more information, visit http://www.biodiesel.org. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Alternative Fuel Purrs At USF
``It was just a matter of putting it in the tank and giving it a shot.'' I wonder if anyone told them the filters would probably clog up at first. Keith http://pasco.tbo.com/pasco/MGA0RVF6W9D.html Dec 19, 2002 Alternative Fuel Purrs At USF By SUSAN SHULINS Tribune correspondent TAMPA - The University of South Florida is pioneering an environmentally friendly alternative fuel made of vegetable oils and animal fats by using it to run 22 of its campus shuttle buses. USF is the only university in the country using biodiesel to operate such a large number of campus buses, said Rick Fallin, USF's transportation manager. Biodiesel produces less carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons and particulate matter than regular diesel fuel. It is nontoxic and biodegradable and can be used alone or mixed with petroleum diesel. The military, other government agencies and numerous city bus fleets have been using biodiesel fuel for the past few years. USF was added to the list in August. Fallin said he decided to investigate using the alternative fuel after he drove a shuttle bus that ran on biodiesel a few years ago. ``I could tell the difference in the engine right away,'' Fallin said. ``The bus ran much quieter and smoother than it did with diesel fuel.'' And the stink of regular diesel fuel exhaust was gone. Since all but three of USF's 25 Bull Runner shuttle buses had newer engines designed to operate with diesel or alternative fuels, no capital investment was needed to make the switch to biodiesel. ``That was a big plus,'' Fallin said. ``It was just a matter of putting it in the tank and giving it a shot.'' The biodiesel is manufactured by OceanAir Environmental Fuels and Glycerine LLC in Lakeland and is delivered by Ward Oil Co. to USF three times a week. If supplies ever become limited, Fallin said he can easily use a mixture of biodiesel and diesel or revert to using regular diesel fuel. While biodiesel is priced about 20 cents more per gallon than regular diesel, the benefits outweigh the additional costs, Fallin said. In addition to the environmental advantage, the supply and pricing of biodiesel is dependent on the American farming industry, not on foreign oil producers, Fallin said. The vegetable oils used in its production include soy, corn, canola, cottonseed, peanut, sunflower and rapeseed. The animal fats come from cattle, poultry and hogs. Fallin is keeping consumption and maintenance records to evaluate long-term use of the fuel, but so far he's convinced of its benefits. ``I've been very happy with the results,'' he said. ``My intention is to use it for the long haul, unless it becomes cost- prohibitive or it causes damage to our equipment. I have a high degree of confidence that it will not cause us any problems.'' USF's shuttle buses, which began operating in 1997, transport students, faculty and staff members around campus. Fallin estimated that by year's end, 1 million riders will have used the service, and he expects that number to increase next year. In November, Bay Area Commuter Services, a nonprofit agency dedicated to working with local companies and commuters to reduce traffic congestion and air pollution, recognized University of South Florida Parking and Transportation Services for its use of biodiesel with a Clean Air Partners Award. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: ETHANOL IN CALIFORNIA
Um, why do people forget about Arkenol??!! They have been around actually doing cellulosic ethanol already in the Sacramento area test plant. http://www.arkenol.com/ I have read up on all of Novozymes, but remember they are biotech, and that is something that should be carefully considered. James Slayden On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, murdoch wrote: Very interesting. The inclusion of Genencor and Novozymes is interesting because they're the sort of cellulosic sourcing that has been mentioned (by DOE study) as make-or-break for getting waste-to-ethanol going and making ethanol more economical in California and elsewhere. It was an alternative-energy fund manager who mentioned Gcor to me when he was looking around for ethanol investments. On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:13:28 +0900, you wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 16:38:46 EST Subject: ETHANOL IN CALIFORNIA To: (a helluva lot of people, including me) The American Coalition for Ethanol and The Clean Fuels Development Coalition are pleased to announce a workshop to be held in Sacramento California on February 6th . ETHANOL IN CALIFORNIA: OPPORTUNITIES FOR INCREASED UTILIZATION AND PRODUCTION will feature representatives from industry and government such as the California Energy Commission the California Department of Food and Agriculture General Motors Corporation, ConocoPhillips Genencor International Novozymes of North America, Inc., and others. The workshop will be held at the Radisson Hotel in Sacramento Registration fee is just $99.00. You can register online through www.ethanol.org/caconference.htmwww.ethanol.org/caconference.htm or call Wendy Buren at 605-334-3381. Hotel Registration is through the Radisson at 916-922-7353. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Survey Shows Support for School Bus Biodiesel Programs
http://www.earthvision.net/ColdFusion/News_Page1.cfm?NewsID=23441 Survey Shows Support for School Bus Biodiesel Programs EarthVision Environmental News http://www.earthvision.net/ JEFFERSON CITY, MO, December 20, 2002 - According to a national public opinion survey, 85 percent of those polled back the idea of schools receiving incentives to help pay biodiesel, a cleaner-burning fuel made from renewable fats or oils, such as soybean oil. According to the National Biodiesel Board, various scientific studies have raised public concern about the harmful effects of diesel exposure to children who ride school buses. Biodiesel works in diesel engines with few or no modifications. We first looked at using biodiesel because we have an obligation to protect the health of kids who ride on our school buses, said John Molnar, fleet administrator for the Hammond School District in northwest Indiana, which uses B20, a blend of 20 percent biodiesel and 80 percent diesel, in its buses. Several high profile studies have shown that diesel fumes may be harmful to children on buses. Using biodiesel is one of the easiest and best things we can do to protect the health of our kids. Based on biodiesel's clean-burning nature, the poll showed that 54 percent of the adults surveyed said it was very important to give incentives to schools for the purchase of biodiesel; and 31 percent said it was somewhat important. The Board points out that according to a recently released EPA report on biodiesel emissions data, emissions from pure biodiesel, when compared to conventional diesel fuel: cut overall particulate matter emissions by about 47 percent; reduce by 80 to 90 percent potential cancer causing compounds called Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) and nitrated PAH; show a 68 percent decrease of total unburned hydrocarbons, a contributing factor to smog and ozone; and cut carbon monoxide by about 48 percent. For more information, visit http://www.biodiesel.org. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Alternative Fuel Purrs At USF
``It was just a matter of putting it in the tank and giving it a shot.'' I wonder if anyone told them the filters would probably clog up at first. Keith http://pasco.tbo.com/pasco/MGA0RVF6W9D.html Dec 19, 2002 Alternative Fuel Purrs At USF By SUSAN SHULINS Tribune correspondent TAMPA - The University of South Florida is pioneering an environmentally friendly alternative fuel made of vegetable oils and animal fats by using it to run 22 of its campus shuttle buses. USF is the only university in the country using biodiesel to operate such a large number of campus buses, said Rick Fallin, USF's transportation manager. Biodiesel produces less carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons and particulate matter than regular diesel fuel. It is nontoxic and biodegradable and can be used alone or mixed with petroleum diesel. The military, other government agencies and numerous city bus fleets have been using biodiesel fuel for the past few years. USF was added to the list in August. Fallin said he decided to investigate using the alternative fuel after he drove a shuttle bus that ran on biodiesel a few years ago. ``I could tell the difference in the engine right away,'' Fallin said. ``The bus ran much quieter and smoother than it did with diesel fuel.'' And the stink of regular diesel fuel exhaust was gone. Since all but three of USF's 25 Bull Runner shuttle buses had newer engines designed to operate with diesel or alternative fuels, no capital investment was needed to make the switch to biodiesel. ``That was a big plus,'' Fallin said. ``It was just a matter of putting it in the tank and giving it a shot.'' The biodiesel is manufactured by OceanAir Environmental Fuels and Glycerine LLC in Lakeland and is delivered by Ward Oil Co. to USF three times a week. If supplies ever become limited, Fallin said he can easily use a mixture of biodiesel and diesel or revert to using regular diesel fuel. While biodiesel is priced about 20 cents more per gallon than regular diesel, the benefits outweigh the additional costs, Fallin said. In addition to the environmental advantage, the supply and pricing of biodiesel is dependent on the American farming industry, not on foreign oil producers, Fallin said. The vegetable oils used in its production include soy, corn, canola, cottonseed, peanut, sunflower and rapeseed. The animal fats come from cattle, poultry and hogs. Fallin is keeping consumption and maintenance records to evaluate long-term use of the fuel, but so far he's convinced of its benefits. ``I've been very happy with the results,'' he said. ``My intention is to use it for the long haul, unless it becomes cost- prohibitive or it causes damage to our equipment. I have a high degree of confidence that it will not cause us any problems.'' USF's shuttle buses, which began operating in 1997, transport students, faculty and staff members around campus. Fallin estimated that by year's end, 1 million riders will have used the service, and he expects that number to increase next year. In November, Bay Area Commuter Services, a nonprofit agency dedicated to working with local companies and commuters to reduce traffic congestion and air pollution, recognized University of South Florida Parking and Transportation Services for its use of biodiesel with a Clean Air Partners Award. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source
Anyone interested in crude soy oil? Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemailxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=7474SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Burbank Cactus Catalog
WHEN GROWN UNDER FAVORABLE CONDITIONS ON GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL IN A WARM CLIMATE MAY CONFIDENTLY BE EXPECTED TO PRODUCE ONE HUNDRED TONS OF FEED PER ACRE EACH SEASON. To get 100 tons of biomass out of an acre WILL REQUIRE at least 100 tons of some kind of inputs - in this case surely mostly WATER. Even if the harvested weight was not mostly water, the biomass weight MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE, it doesn't just 'happen'. At some point, the 'GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL' will become depleted without an equal amount of nutrients/minerals returned to it. Putting 100 tons of petrochemical fertilizer on any crop to make biofuel is not a very sustainable approach, and will only make sense to study groups, conference planners and petroleum refiners. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Level Playing Fields
I kinda feel that that much crosposting is turning into a spam of sorts and I REALLY hate spam, so I usually only post to the list that it is focused on. Just my .02 James Slayden On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, murdoch wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are referring to me doing something deliberately vs some oversight (). I was just asking a question relating to your perception of how you access this group computer-wise. You see, at some point I posted one of my notes in this thread not only to the biofuel discussion area but also to the biofuel-biz group and also the evworld.com group of which I am a moderator. I do this when I think that the ideas may pertain to those groups as well. (Sometimes I'm wrong, but I try to do my best to guage it). You could see this if you access this group via email and have your email set to look at some of the header info. Here is the info from that post that I made: To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: SUV, truck owners get a big tax break From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:55:14 -0800 Cc: biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now, I talked about this recently here with Keith because I've found that a lot of folks are not responsive to this crossposting and simply reply only within one group, whereas they could easily reply to all (if they're accessing via email) and reply to all those groups in which they are registered. So, for example, if you wanted to share your ideas with the biofuel-biz group and thought they'd be relevant, you could have cc'd your post to them, assuming you have joined. If you didn't belong to one of the groups then you would have to leave them out of the cc or I guess it would get rejected. I think that crossposting can be valuable where a sort of cross-fertilization of ideas may be welcomed by some (even if not by all). Sometimes, for example, I have tried crossposting to the renewable energy group, but frankly I get the impression that the moderator there just isn't that into it. So anyway, that's what I was referring to. I think sometimes there is a perception that group participants are choosing not to crosspost when in fact they don't understand what it is or how to do it. For all I know, you're accessing this group via the web instead of via email, as I haven't taken a hard look at your header info. I'm not sure if this would preclude crossposting but it would almost certainly mean that you could enjoy the group more by transitioning to an email use of it. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.ZSp6B/dlOFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Burbank Cactus Catalog
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WHEN GROWN UNDER FAVORABLE CONDITIONS ON GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL IN A WARM CLIMATE MAY CONFIDENTLY BE EXPECTED TO PRODUCE ONE HUNDRED TONS OF FEED PER ACRE EACH SEASON. To get 100 tons of biomass out of an acre WILL REQUIRE at least 100 tons of some kind of inputs - in this case surely mostly WATER. Even if the harvested weight was not mostly water, the biomass weight MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE, it doesn't just 'happen'. At some point, the 'GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL' will become depleted without an equal amount of nutrients/minerals returned to it. Putting 100 tons of petrochemical fertilizer on any crop to make biofuel is not a very sustainable approach, and will only make sense to study groups, conference planners and petroleum refiners. This is a more complicated situation than I have time to adequately deal with. MOST of the input would be Sunlight and Carbon Dioxide. Hopefully, someone can take the explanation from there, and expound on it. I'll speculate a bit, and concur that most of the 'harvest' is water. Sunlight provides an approximate average of 6-7 tons/acre/year of input, when combined with Carbon Dioxide, to arrive at a sustainable harvest figure. 'Oven-dry weight' is the commonly used method of determining the amount harvested. The amount of sunlight is variable by location. For ease of explanation, plant harvesting is simply collecting the amount of Solar Energy that has been collected and stored by Plants. The Sun is the source of nearly all of our energy. Plants are collection and storage devices. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Burbank Cactus Catalog
I think sunlight and CO2 are a big part of the equation. After fermenting the spent residue should be composted and put back on the ground. I don't believe in petrochemicals. Never use them. My plants survive bugs and heat. Petro plants don't. Kirk -Original Message- From: Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 10:20 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Burbank Cactus Catalog WHEN GROWN UNDER FAVORABLE CONDITIONS ON GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL IN A WARM CLIMATE MAY CONFIDENTLY BE EXPECTED TO PRODUCE ONE HUNDRED TONS OF FEED PER ACRE EACH SEASON. To get 100 tons of biomass out of an acre WILL REQUIRE at least 100 tons of some kind of inputs - in this case surely mostly WATER. Even if the harvested weight was not mostly water, the biomass weight MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE, it doesn't just 'happen'. At some point, the 'GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL' will become depleted without an equal amount of nutrients/minerals returned to it. Putting 100 tons of petrochemical fertilizer on any crop to make biofuel is not a very sustainable approach, and will only make sense to study groups, conference planners and petroleum refiners. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 12/6/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Burbank Cactus Catalog
A hundred tons per acre per annum sounds a lot to me. In the UK short rotation coppice can achieve about 16 tons per hectare (6.5 tons/acre) so a yield of over 15 times this seems hard to believe. Eucalyptus in Uganda or Hawaii can achieve 55+ cubic metres/ha/year (ie less than 55 tons) and in terms of biomass production that is pretty impressive. H http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Coppicecraft/ --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WHEN GROWN UNDER FAVORABLE CONDITIONS ON GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL IN A WARM CLIMATE MAY CONFIDENTLY BE EXPECTED TO PRODUCE ONE HUNDRED TONS OF FEED PER ACRE EACH SEASON. To get 100 tons of biomass out of an acre WILL REQUIRE at least 100 tons of some kind of inputs - in this case surely mostly WATER. Even if the harvested weight was not mostly water, the biomass weight MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE, it doesn't just 'happen'. At some point, the 'GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL' will become depleted without an equal amount of nutrients/minerals returned to it. Putting 100 tons of petrochemical fertilizer on any crop to make biofuel is not a very sustainable approach, and will only make sense to study groups, conference planners and petroleum refiners. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Natural Cycles Was: Burbank Cactus Catalog
I think, in the end, that man will find that the best solutions will come by studying all of the cycles that go around and around in nature and simply finding a way to patch in to her cycles. For instance, take one of nature's machines that need energy say a horse (for running). It eats hay .. breathes in air and exhausts shit. All of those raw materials are naturally provided. And even the .. ahem ... exhaust nature has a way... of simply cycling it back into the cycle. Absorbing it cleanly ... and completely. Notice how nicely it all jigsaw-puzzles together. I think our travels will only arrive at our final destination when our machines mimic nature's. (example: Hydrogen Generator that you scoop in bales of hay crap comes out one exit and extracted energy comes out as liquid hydrogen comes out the other. Simulating a horse.) just a thought. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think sunlight and CO2 are a big part of the equation. After fermenting the spent residue should be composted and put back on the ground. - Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source
Rick writes: Anyone interested in crude soy oil? Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's the price per 55-gal drum? When you say crude, do you mean RBD (refined, bleached, and deodorized)? If not, which steps have been omitted? If not refined, do you have any idea of the free fatty acid level, or would you supply samples for titration? Has it been degummed? How about water content? I'm possibly interested, if all above factors are favorable. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Burbank Cactus Catalog
Tim wrote: WHEN GROWN UNDER FAVORABLE CONDITIONS ON GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL IN A WARM CLIMATE MAY CONFIDENTLY BE EXPECTED TO PRODUCE ONE HUNDRED TONS OF FEED PER ACRE EACH SEASON. To get 100 tons of biomass out of an acre WILL REQUIRE at least 100 tons of some kind of inputs - in this case surely mostly WATER. Even if the harvested weight was not mostly water, the biomass weight MUST COME FROM SOMEWHERE, it doesn't just 'happen'. At some point, the 'GOOD CULTIVATED SOIL' will become depleted without an equal amount of nutrients/minerals returned to it. Putting 100 tons of petrochemical fertilizer on any crop to make biofuel is not a very sustainable approach, and will only make sense to study groups, conference planners and petroleum refiners. It doesn't work that way Tim. Certainly there's the law of return, but there's a net gain, and it can be a very large net gain. There's no need for petrochemical fertilizers, the evidence for that is now very widespread. Yields without them are the same or nearly the same, costs much lower, externalizations much lower down to zero, quality is higher, and you can keep on doing it forever. See, for instance: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=12561list=BIOFUEL I wrote this a couple of days ago: If you graze them, you get much healthier animals, much healthier meat, good production, low costs, and after a couple of years there's enough sheer fertility in that pasture to grow six years of succeeding crops without any further inputs. That's the whole basis of the mixed-farming rotation that's now been abandoned in favour of this wasteful, troublesome, expensive and unhealthy industrialized junk. AND if you do it this way livestock production isn't wasteful, as alleged by Pimentel et al, giving good (?) food to animals instead of to hungry people: with mixed-farming rotations the animals provide very much more food than they consume (only grass), in both animal products and the succeeding crops. Rational. That's gain all the way, high production, very low inputs, and soil fertility accumulation rather than depletion. Another example: in a series of grazing trials at Aberystwyth in Wales, a field was reseeded with a grass mixture (grasses, deep-rooting herbs, legumes) and divided in two with a fence. One half was grazed heavily with cattle, and a high value of nutrients and minerals removed in the form of beef and milk. The other half was mown regularly, and the mowings left to decay back into the soil, nothing was removed. The following year neither half was grazed, nothing was added. The heavily grazed half had the higher production of hay, by far. In other words, the manure and urine from the grazing animals provided more fertility than their growth and milk production had removed. But that just doesn't add up, chemistry just doesn't work that way. Indeed it doesn't, but biology does, especially microbiology, which is what you're dealing with in soils. Another example: a well-managed compost pile can end up containing 25% more nitrogen than the compost materials contained in the first place, via the action of free-living N-fixing soil bacteria. Buying nitrogen in a bag is really dumb - first you're cheating yourself, you just don't need it, and second, it's probably screwing up the soil systems that would give it to you for nothing. The 1999 report on the University of Wisconsin-Madison's ongoing 37-year project monitoring the effects of nitrogen fertilisers in the US concluded that agriculture's continuing overapplication of nitrogen fertilizers is causing irreparable damage to the soil. It said US farms have a 50% applied nitrogen efficiency rate -- only half the nitrogen applied to the soil is actually used by the crop. The other half becomes harmful nitric acid. They said three decades of such overuse of nitrogen has destroyed much of the soil's fertility, causing it to age the equivalent of 5,000 years. -- Acidification From Fertilizer Use Linked To Soil Aging: http://www.cals.wisc.edu/media/news/03_99/acid_soil.html And never mind the water and the dead zones. There are endless such examples. There's a whole bunch of them here: http://journeytoforever.org/garden_organic.html Why organic? http://journeytoforever.org/farm.html Small farms So, to go back to what you said, most of the growth will come from air and water (and sunshine), and very much less from soil nutrients - which doesn't make them less important, they're all important, especially the one that's in short supply (the law of the little bit). That's *all* the nutrients, at least 40 of them, not just N, P, and K. This mechanistic idea of replacing what's been removed is an old myth, often discredited, even by its inventor, Baron Justus von Liebig, in the mid-19th century. Over 130 years ago (1855) Justus von Liebig's discovery that plants are fed by water soluble substances started a revolution in agriculture. However this
Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source
Ken,.The soy oil is extruded/expelled soybean oil. The oil has been settled but that is it. We are an all natural processor and do not have RBD capabilities. As far as samples are concerned, what quantity do you need for titration? Here are some characteristics: Unsaponifiable matter(%) 0.98 Peroxide value(Meq/Kg) 0-1.00 Moisture and Volatile matter(%) 0.03 Iodine value 133 Free Fatty Acids 0.14 Phosphatide(%) 0.20 Thanks for your questions Rick Emery From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:20:13 -0800 Rick writes: Anyone interested in crude soy oil? Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's the price per 55-gal drum? When you say crude, do you mean RBD (refined, bleached, and deodorized)? If not, which steps have been omitted? If not refined, do you have any idea of the free fatty acid level, or would you supply samples for titration? Has it been degummed? How about water content? I'm possibly interested, if all above factors are favorable. -K Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virusxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=7474SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Natural Cycles Was: Burbank Cactus Catalog
Hi Curtis I think, in the end, that man will find that the best solutions will come by studying all of the cycles that go around and around in nature and simply finding a way to patch in to her cycles. A great deal of that has already been done, by virtually all traditional societies, and with a great deal of synthesis and improvement over the last 150 years. It's not a work that can ever be finished, but it long ago reached the level of full sustainability, and better. Those farmers and societies that have gone crashing down the modern path of industrialized farming simply need to wake up to what's going on around them. For instance, take one of nature's machines that need energy say a horse (for running). It eats hay .. breathes in air and exhausts shit. All of those raw materials are naturally provided. And even the .. ahem ... exhaust nature has a way... of simply cycling it back into the cycle. Absorbing it cleanly ... and completely. And with net gain - the crux of the matter. The exhaust is absoloutely essential, it's not a waste product. Notice how nicely it all jigsaw-puzzles together. I think our travels will only arrive at our final destination when our machines mimic nature's. (example: Hydrogen Generator that you scoop in bales of hay crap comes out one exit and extracted energy comes out as liquid hydrogen comes out the other. Simulating a horse.) just a thought. Curtis Why not just use a horse? Best Keith Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think sunlight and CO2 are a big part of the equation. After fermenting the spent residue should be composted and put back on the ground. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source
Ken, Here is a link: http://www.bruninggrainco.com/ I have been in contact with Rick via email and they look like a good source for large quantities of oil. It seems to be low FFA's due to their non-chemical process. James Slayden On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Ken Provost wrote: Rick writes: Anyone interested in crude soy oil? Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's the price per 55-gal drum? When you say crude, do you mean RBD (refined, bleached, and deodorized)? If not, which steps have been omitted? If not refined, do you have any idea of the free fatty acid level, or would you supply samples for titration? Has it been degummed? How about water content? I'm possibly interested, if all above factors are favorable. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source
Rick, Where are you located and what is the price? Craig Green Bay, WI - Original Message - From: Rick Emery [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source Ken,.The soy oil is extruded/expelled soybean oil. The oil has been settled but that is it. We are an all natural processor and do not have RBD capabilities. As far as samples are concerned, what quantity do you need for titration? Here are some characteristics: Unsaponifiable matter(%) 0.98 Peroxide value(Meq/Kg) 0-1.00 Moisture and Volatile matter(%) 0.03 Iodine value 133 Free Fatty Acids 0.14 Phosphatide(%) 0.20 Thanks for your questions Rick Emery From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Crude Soy Oil Source Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:20:13 -0800 Rick writes: Anyone interested in crude soy oil? Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] What's the price per 55-gal drum? When you say crude, do you mean RBD (refined, bleached, and deodorized)? If not, which steps have been omitted? If not refined, do you have any idea of the free fatty acid level, or would you supply samples for titration? Has it been degummed? How about water content? I'm possibly interested, if all above factors are favorable. -K Rick Emery Bruning Grain and Feed 800-232-6623 [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virusxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=7474S U= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminatevi ruses_3mf Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn
There is a red worm company that sells worms to fishfarms. Just like livestock, everything under the sun is fed to those poor fish. www.eatwild.com for those who are non-veggies and want good meat James Slayden On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: I think I read this (the vegetarian salmon thing) in the paper recently here, and heard it from locals (who are pretty addicted to salmon). there might be different practices (hell, those factory farming people can make an animal eat anything, it sounds like) in different places. Mark Factory farmed salmon, for instance- almost the opposite of the cows described below. The practice involves taking an obviously carnivorous fish, confining it and feeding it a vegetarian diet (probably some kind of waste product, I imagine). The result is salmon with no color, which are then dyed red to make the meat attractive to consumers. I think a major problem with factory farmed salmon is that they're NOT fed a vegetarian diet - they're fed on enormous quantities of wild fish, with a very poor conversion factor, greatly helping to empty the oceans like some giant vacuum cleaner of no avail. I don't have all this at my fingertips, let me dig a bit on my hard disk. Hm. I think this applies to salmon. First, aquaculture is a highly polluting industry, just as industrialized farming is. Aquaculture is now the source of 27% of seafood consumed by people worldwide, since more than a quarter of wild fish harvests are used in animal feed. Feeding fish to cows? Certainly to pigs and poultry. The Worldwatch Institute says it takes about five grams of fish protein -- converted into fishmeal -- to make a gram of farmed fish protein. I [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] More Forestry? OH, NOOO!!!
Sorry to continue beating a dead horse. Part of what is keeping me so busy, is Forestry related. I have an interesting excerpt to share. I can't reveal the source, but it is an Official one. there are 708,000 acres of _. The estimated sustainable harvest for _ is 121,000 cords per year. Actual harvest in the year 2000 was 20,100 cords, leaving an available surplus of approximately 100,000 cords. Currently, there is a deficit of harvest of 100,000 cords/year of this one species to maintain the particular Forest at it's current status. A 500% increase in harvest rate would be needed to keep up with the annual rate of growth. Should the harvest be increased through sustainable harvesting methods, and be a productive resource, or should the excess be left to accumulate until the whole Forest is burned to bare mineral soil? One method is economically sustainable, and maintains a productive resource forever. The current method is simply waiting for a lightning strike to totally destroy the forest for many (100+)years. In Keith's pasture scenario, one portion was grazed, another was mowed and the material left to decompose. Suppose we had a third section of that same pasture, and left it alone through the whole growing season. No mowing or cutting, no grazing, and severely limitted observation! Let the plants grow tall! At the end of the season, or after several seasons of no harvest or activity, we set it on fire. That is our current Forest management strategy. I would like to add a thought to Keith's portion of the pasture that has been cut. Can a portion of the hay be sold to pay for the cost of cutting, to make it an economically sustainable plan? It needs to be cut occasionally to prevent it being taken over by weeds. I believe the productive useage of the pasture as a sustainable resource is the 'best' use and the 'best' Stewardship scenario, with the very last choice to be to simply burn all the growth in a Natural' manner. Keith's grazing scenario, and the 'let it burn' philosophy represent the extremes of Forest Management. Many of us are trying to work toward the middle ground, though it isn't our preferrred method, it is still better than simply letting it all burn. The 'Metro' thinking seems to be that Fire Prevention or a reduction of Fire Danger, should only be applied where someone has a House. A house can be replaced in less than a year. The surrounding Forest cannot be. In economic value terms, which is worth more, a house or several thousands of acres of trees. Burn the house and save the Forest. Also, in Keith's scenario, once the grass is cut, instead of leaving it to decompose, it could be gathered as a Hay crop, fed to his horse and the horse manure be returned to the field. Sale of excess Hay would pay for the costs involved. To relate this to current Forestry practice, teh trees are blown down in a storm, or killed by disease or old age instead of being cut. The sensible thing from my perspective, would be to salvage this wood and sell it to pay for any other needed improvements, which may also involve selected small controlled burns. The current situation involves months of litigation and Environmental Impact Studies until the wood is no longer fit for salvage. Then it has become a Liability instead of an Assett, and is a danger to the well-being of the rest of the healthy trees. I don't know if I should even open the can-o'-worms called 'below cost Timber sales'! It's just an accounting scheme promoted by those opposed to logging. That's enough for now. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn
A point of order, I have some friends in Sweden that are farming Salmon and it is a very controlled industry, at least in Sweden. Normally the feed them with pellets made of waste from fish industries. Since I was a young boy I have been fishing a lot and have some problems with the info about meat color. The common Salmon (in Swedish Lax) does not have a raw meat that is particularly red, but a relative to it have very red meat color. In Swedish we call it Havslaxring (English translation Sea-Salmon-trout, do not know the English name, could be Seatrout), it grows to the same sizes as Salmon and when you fish, you get both kinds. Salmon is silver colored and the Sea-trout have similar coloring as normal sweet water trout. If you cold-smoke or marinate Salmon, the meat also get a little bit yellow-red. Never noticed any difference on meat color between farmed and wild Salmon, but the taste is superior for the wild one. I the fish shop they normally call them both Salmon. I have never heard anyone dye the meat of salmon, but it is a fish (do not know the English name) that for hundreds of years was used as Salmon substitute and when they smoked this one they colored it. Was mostly sold in tin cans. Personally I think that good practise Salmon farming is very good. Especially with the strict measures that they have for farmed ones not to escape and mix with wild population. It has been giving the wild population a chance to recuperate from the over-fishing and power plant problems. Even if all power plants in the Scandinavian countries must have fish ladders, it has effected the population. The only colorless Salmon meat I have seen, is after the laid eggs and they are passing away. You do not eat them at that point anyway. Hakan On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: Factory farmed salmon, for instance- almost the opposite of the cows described below. The practice involves taking an obviously carnivorous fish, confining it and feeding it a vegetarian diet (probably some kind of waste product, I imagine). The result is salmon with no color, which are then dyed red to make the meat attractive to consumers. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn
Hakan, Just as the US goes over the top on most everything, the fish industry is just another excess. I have heard of some genetic degradation in the farmed Salmon population due to not enough wild introduction. This has caused sick undersized fish which then need antibotics, extra helpings of protien, and such. This just leads to more of the same thing we see in the cattle industries. Short cuts and greed causing major environmental and biological issues. There has also been some noted changes in the enviromental impact of fish farms especially in the latin countries where there are even less controls than here. Water levels contain more waste than should be which impact other aquatic species. I applaud the Swiss in their management of such industries, as they do across the board, but in the US it is a different beast altogether. On the note of flesh colour, I believe that open ocean (especially cold ocean water) causes the flesh to be red, as steelhead also have that color (and flavour). Something about an oxygen rich environ comes to mind. James Slayden On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Hakan Falk wrote: A point of order, I have some friends in Sweden that are farming Salmon and it is a very controlled industry, at least in Sweden. Normally the feed them with pellets made of waste from fish industries. Since I was a young boy I have been fishing a lot and have some problems with the info about meat color. The common Salmon (in Swedish Lax) does not have a raw meat that is particularly red, but a relative to it have very red meat color. In Swedish we call it Havslaxöring (English translation Sea-Salmon-trout, do not know the English name, could be Seatrout), it grows to the same sizes as Salmon and when you fish, you get both kinds. Salmon is silver colored and the Sea-trout have similar coloring as normal sweet water trout. If you cold-smoke or marinate Salmon, the meat also get a little bit yellow-red. Never noticed any difference on meat color between farmed and wild Salmon, but the taste is superior for the wild one. I the fish shop they normally call them both Salmon. I have never heard anyone dye the meat of salmon, but it is a fish (do not know the English name) that for hundreds of years was used as Salmon substitute and when they smoked this one they colored it. Was mostly sold in tin cans. Personally I think that good practise Salmon farming is very good. Especially with the strict measures that they have for farmed ones not to escape and mix with wild population. It has been giving the wild population a chance to recuperate from the over-fishing and power plant problems. Even if all power plants in the Scandinavian countries must have fish ladders, it has effected the population. The only colorless Salmon meat I have seen, is after the laid eggs and they are passing away. You do not eat them at that point anyway. Hakan On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: Factory farmed salmon, for instance- almost the opposite of the cows described below. The practice involves taking an obviously carnivorous fish, confining it and feeding it a vegetarian diet (probably some kind of waste product, I imagine). The result is salmon with no color, which are then dyed red to make the meat attractive to consumers. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn
Sorry James, The Swiss does not have salmon any longer, cannot survive on the rivers through Germany, Italy and France. They do have sweet water Trout. Sweden have now a lot of Salmon and also farmed Salmon. I do not know if Steelhead is a common salmon or a relative in the same way as I described or it could even be the name I did not know. Farming does effect the fish quality, mainly because of the lack of muscle building. Do effect the taste in the same way as farmed pigs and wild. The sick fish you refer to, could have been the pest that was going through the industry around 10-15 years ago. They had to slaughter all farmed fish in Scandinavia and I believe US also, it took a while before they could start again and especially to get the larger size Salmons. They slaughtered the fish in fish farms to protect the wild population from getting the bug. I have never heard about antibiotics used in fish farming. In cattle farming I know of the extremely irresponsible use of antibiotics and I think that it is some countries that even give them hormones, a practice not allowed in Europe. At least in Europe they are trying to maintain the difference between human sexes and not try to indirectly feed the population with female hormones. I know that US is all for equality, but to achieve this by hormones might be too excessive. Maybe women lib. organizations are behind it? Hakan At 05:14 PM 12/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: Hakan, Just as the US goes over the top on most everything, the fish industry is just another excess. I have heard of some genetic degradation in the farmed Salmon population due to not enough wild introduction. This has caused sick undersized fish which then need antibotics, extra helpings of protien, and such. This just leads to more of the same thing we see in the cattle industries. Short cuts and greed causing major environmental and biological issues. There has also been some noted changes in the enviromental impact of fish farms especially in the latin countries where there are even less controls than here. Water levels contain more waste than should be which impact other aquatic species. I applaud the Swiss in their management of such industries, as they do across the board, but in the US it is a different beast altogether. On the note of flesh colour, I believe that open ocean (especially cold ocean water) causes the flesh to be red, as steelhead also have that color (and flavour). Something about an oxygen rich environ comes to mind. James Slayden On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Hakan Falk wrote: A point of order, I have some friends in Sweden that are farming Salmon and it is a very controlled industry, at least in Sweden. Normally the feed them with pellets made of waste from fish industries. Since I was a young boy I have been fishing a lot and have some problems with the info about meat color. The common Salmon (in Swedish Lax) does not have a raw meat that is particularly red, but a relative to it have very red meat color. In Swedish we call it Havslaxring (English translation Sea-Salmon-trout, do not know the English name, could be Seatrout), it grows to the same sizes as Salmon and when you fish, you get both kinds. Salmon is silver colored and the Sea-trout have similar coloring as normal sweet water trout. If you cold-smoke or marinate Salmon, the meat also get a little bit yellow-red. Never noticed any difference on meat color between farmed and wild Salmon, but the taste is superior for the wild one. I the fish shop they normally call them both Salmon. I have never heard anyone dye the meat of salmon, but it is a fish (do not know the English name) that for hundreds of years was used as Salmon substitute and when they smoked this one they colored it. Was mostly sold in tin cans. Personally I think that good practise Salmon farming is very good. Especially with the strict measures that they have for farmed ones not to escape and mix with wild population. It has been giving the wild population a chance to recuperate from the over-fishing and power plant problems. Even if all power plants in the Scandinavian countries must have fish ladders, it has effected the population. The only colorless Salmon meat I have seen, is after the laid eggs and they are passing away. You do not eat them at that point anyway. Hakan On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, girl mark wrote: Factory farmed salmon, for instance- almost the opposite of the cows described below. The practice involves taking an obviously carnivorous fish, confining it and feeding it a vegetarian diet (probably some kind of waste product, I imagine). The result is salmon with no color, which are then dyed red to make the meat attractive to consumers. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives:
RE: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn
Female hormone level in some streams is affecting the fish -- there was a story recently about this in GB. Hormone is in waste water, from birth control pills. I was surprised fish react to mammal hormones. As for ocean fish and color shrimp are not fed to farmed fish. They are fed pellets and I know for a time they contained slaughter house waste. You know flamingoes are not pink unless they get crustaceans from brackish environment. Fish are probably a similar process. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:00 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn Sorry James, The Swiss does not have salmon any longer, cannot survive on the rivers through Germany, Italy and France. They do have sweet water Trout. Sweden have now a lot of Salmon and also farmed Salmon. I do not know if Steelhead is a common salmon or a relative in the same way as I described or it could even be the name I did not know. Farming does effect the fish quality, mainly because of the lack of muscle building. Do effect the taste in the same way as farmed pigs and wild. The sick fish you refer to, could have been the pest that was going through the industry around 10-15 years ago. They had to slaughter all farmed fish in Scandinavia and I believe US also, it took a while before they could start again and especially to get the larger size Salmons. They slaughtered the fish in fish farms to protect the wild population from getting the bug. I have never heard about antibiotics used in fish farming. In cattle farming I know of the extremely irresponsible use of antibiotics and I think that it is some countries that even give them hormones, a practice not allowed in Europe. At least in Europe they are trying to maintain the difference between human sexes and not try to indirectly feed the population with female hormones. I know that US is all for equality, but to achieve this by hormones might be too excessive. Maybe women lib. organizations are behind it? Hakan At 05:14 PM 12/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: Hakan, Just as the US goes over the top on most everything, the fish industry is just another excess. I have heard of some genetic degradation in the farmed Salmon population due to not enough wild introduction. This has caused sick undersized fish which then need antibotics, extra helpings of protien, and such. This just leads to more of the same thing we see in the cattle industries. Short cuts and greed causing major environmental and biological issues. There has also been some noted changes in the enviromental impact of fish farms especially in the latin countries where there are even less controls than here. Water levels contain more waste than should be which impact other aquatic species. I applaud the Swiss in their management of such industries, as they do across the board, but in the US it is a different beast altogether. On the note of flesh colour, I believe that open ocean (especially cold ocean water) causes the flesh to be red, as steelhead also have that color (and flavour). Something about an oxygen rich environ comes to mind. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn
Hi Kirk, Yes, I saw some investigations about that too. I did not want to go into all kind of fishes, but if that is the case I agree with you. Salmon spend however a very short part of their life in sweet water, normally they are roaming the oceans and travel all over the world. I do not think that they are effected and birth control pills are not used by a majority of the worlds population. At least in Europe the have pellets made of waste from fish processing plants, I can even buy them as dog food. Color shrimp, what is that? the normal shrimps are nearly transparent until you cook them. I have seen large shrimps with color but they are rare and very expensive. Bad practises exist everywhere but what I have seen from the Salmon farming industry it is generally quite good. A lot of the farmed Salmon in US comes from Island and Norway anyway, it is their biggest market. So if you are worried, look at the label. But you are right, it is reasons to think at least two times before you eat sweet water fish. Scandinavia is maybe the only exception, since they really managed to get back their clean water. Heard that Canada is quite good also. Spain where I live is not and one renewal cycle of the water in the Mediterranean .takes 80 years. Similar to the Baltic sea, which not until recently showed improvements in its Northern part, further south we still suffer from Russia and the former Soviet states. Hakan At 07:18 PM 12/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: Female hormone level in some streams is affecting the fish -- there was a story recently about this in GB. Hormone is in waste water, from birth control pills. I was surprised fish react to mammal hormones. As for ocean fish and color shrimp are not fed to farmed fish. They are fed pellets and I know for a time they contained slaughter house waste. You know flamingoes are not pink unless they get crustaceans from brackish environment. Fish are probably a similar process. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:00 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn Sorry James, The Swiss does not have salmon any longer, cannot survive on the rivers through Germany, Italy and France. They do have sweet water Trout. Sweden have now a lot of Salmon and also farmed Salmon. I do not know if Steelhead is a common salmon or a relative in the same way as I described or it could even be the name I did not know. Farming does effect the fish quality, mainly because of the lack of muscle building. Do effect the taste in the same way as farmed pigs and wild. The sick fish you refer to, could have been the pest that was going through the industry around 10-15 years ago. They had to slaughter all farmed fish in Scandinavia and I believe US also, it took a while before they could start again and especially to get the larger size Salmons. They slaughtered the fish in fish farms to protect the wild population from getting the bug. I have never heard about antibiotics used in fish farming. In cattle farming I know of the extremely irresponsible use of antibiotics and I think that it is some countries that even give them hormones, a practice not allowed in Europe. At least in Europe they are trying to maintain the difference between human sexes and not try to indirectly feed the population with female hormones. I know that US is all for equality, but to achieve this by hormones might be too excessive. Maybe women lib. organizations are behind it? Hakan At 05:14 PM 12/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: Hakan, Just as the US goes over the top on most everything, the fish industry is just another excess. I have heard of some genetic degradation in the farmed Salmon population due to not enough wild introduction. This has caused sick undersized fish which then need antibotics, extra helpings of protien, and such. This just leads to more of the same thing we see in the cattle industries. Short cuts and greed causing major environmental and biological issues. There has also been some noted changes in the enviromental impact of fish farms especially in the latin countries where there are even less controls than here. Water levels contain more waste than should be which impact other aquatic species. I applaud the Swiss in their management of such industries, as they do across the board, but in the US it is a different beast altogether. On the note of flesh colour, I believe that open ocean (especially cold ocean water) causes the flesh to be red, as steelhead also have that color (and flavour). Something about an oxygen rich environ comes to mind. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your
[biofuel] RE: industrial livestock husbandry
Fish-farming/aquaculture can be both benign and beneficial, or, it can be wasteful, polluting, and destructive. A bit like livestock farming. It's quite difficult to find anything good about industrialized fish-farming, as with animals. Heavily chemicalized, highly polluting, extremely wasteful of ocean resources (and encouraging unsustainable fishing practices). Aquaculture is now the source of 27% of seafood consumed by people worldwide, since more than a quarter of wild fish harvests are used in animal feed. The Worldwatch Institute says it takes about five grams of fish protein -- converted into fishmeal -- to make a gram of farmed fish protein. 'Bycatch' -- the collateral damage of industrialised fishing: Around the world, each year, 44 billion pounds of fish plus hundreds of thousands of other marine animals are thrown overboard, dead and dying. Twenty-five percent of the entire world catch is wasted this way. And with a poor-quality product. Or there's this: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_pond.html Aquaculture for small farmers And I guess quite a lot somewhere in between the two. Best Keith Hi Kirk, Yes, I saw some investigations about that too. I did not want to go into all kind of fishes, but if that is the case I agree with you. Salmon spend however a very short part of their life in sweet water, normally they are roaming the oceans and travel all over the world. I do not think that they are effected and birth control pills are not used by a majority of the worlds population. At least in Europe the have pellets made of waste from fish processing plants, I can even buy them as dog food. Color shrimp, what is that? the normal shrimps are nearly transparent until you cook them. I have seen large shrimps with color but they are rare and very expensive. Bad practises exist everywhere but what I have seen from the Salmon farming industry it is generally quite good. A lot of the farmed Salmon in US comes from Island and Norway anyway, it is their biggest market. So if you are worried, look at the label. But you are right, it is reasons to think at least two times before you eat sweet water fish. Scandinavia is maybe the only exception, since they really managed to get back their clean water. Heard that Canada is quite good also. Spain where I live is not and one renewal cycle of the water in the Mediterranean .takes 80 years. Similar to the Baltic sea, which not until recently showed improvements in its Northern part, further south we still suffer from Russia and the former Soviet states. Hakan At 07:18 PM 12/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: Female hormone level in some streams is affecting the fish -- there was a story recently about this in GB. Hormone is in waste water, from birth control pills. I was surprised fish react to mammal hormones. As for ocean fish and color shrimp are not fed to farmed fish. They are fed pellets and I know for a time they contained slaughter house waste. You know flamingoes are not pink unless they get crustaceans from brackish environment. Fish are probably a similar process. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:00 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: industrial livestock husbandry was: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] toxins in this season U.S. corn Sorry James, The Swiss does not have salmon any longer, cannot survive on the rivers through Germany, Italy and France. They do have sweet water Trout. Sweden have now a lot of Salmon and also farmed Salmon. I do not know if Steelhead is a common salmon or a relative in the same way as I described or it could even be the name I did not know. Farming does effect the fish quality, mainly because of the lack of muscle building. Do effect the taste in the same way as farmed pigs and wild. The sick fish you refer to, could have been the pest that was going through the industry around 10-15 years ago. They had to slaughter all farmed fish in Scandinavia and I believe US also, it took a while before they could start again and especially to get the larger size Salmons. They slaughtered the fish in fish farms to protect the wild population from getting the bug. I have never heard about antibiotics used in fish farming. In cattle farming I know of the extremely irresponsible use of antibiotics and I think that it is some countries that even give them hormones, a practice not allowed in Europe. At least in Europe they are trying to maintain the difference between human sexes and not try to indirectly feed the population with female hormones. I know that US is all for equality, but to achieve this by hormones might be too excessive. Maybe women lib. organizations are behind it? Hakan At 05:14 PM 12/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: Hakan, Just as the US goes over the top on most everything, the fish industry is just another excess. I have heard of some genetic
