Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
It's really difficult to watch some of those "undercover" videos of slaughter houses and laboratories without really examing the way you live and the way you think of animals. If everyone had to look at the animal they ate living and dying in little cages in industrial farms, full of hormones and antibiotics, I think things would be a lot different. Out of sight out of mind. I have to agree with what was said earlier, I have no problem with eating meat. I have problem with the system that delivers me that meat, and the impact that system has on the planet, as it's set up now. I enjoy pointing that out to people, too! When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. Chris N. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] give up meat? "Google" on "vegetarian" and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get an healthful diet. I've been "vegetarian" for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use "soy" milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel "living" conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achieve better health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive through farm country in Maryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
"Google" on "vegetarian" and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get an healthful diet. I've been "vegetarian" for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use "soy" milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel "living" conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achieve better health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive through farm country in Maryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH
Thanks Keith and Ray. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH > Hello Bill: > > Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste into a > file of important notes: > > "KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually > 1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution > instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of > 0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5 > grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH. > So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of > oil." > > "...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's > generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually > about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls > assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9 > grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for > 92% KOH." > > > Ray > > On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Hello Keith and all, > > > > I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your > > titration > > solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for the > > percent > > of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 3.5 > > grans NaOH > > to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the > > titration > > solution. > > > > Any help is appreciated. > > > > Bill Clark > > > > ___ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > > (50,000 > > messages): > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > -- > Ray or Shiraz Ings > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 1-613-253-1311 > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
ryan, if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. there aren't many 'veggies' (at least, as i understand the word) which contain much protein. the primary non-animal protein sources are cereals/grains, potatoes, beans (like black, pinto, soy), and the right kinds of corn (maize) when properly prepared. for the most part, none of these is sufficient in and of itself, since they do not contain the complete amino acid set required for the human diet. -chris b. --- Begin Message --- Ken, I am curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat. I have been attempting to give up beef. Mostly because a good friend of mine runs a testing lab at a beef plant in Colorado. The things he tells me makes me not want beef anymore. Especially when he talks about mad cow. I don't think most Americans know what it will do, furthermore we think we are invincible. Do you only eat veggies, or do you eat meat substitutes, or both? Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ --- End Message --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] out with the wash
Uhhh.Vincent, > A question about all those crap batches that i have sitting in > barrels, they have sat out in the open air and sun for about > a month or two and am wondering if they can just go down the > drain?? My "hearing" is a little off, right? You wouldn't pour barrels of veg oil and fat down the drain, would you? First, determine just what it is that you have. At worst you may have a lifetime supply of oil for tiki torches. At best you may have feedstock that's salvageable. Keep each batch seperate as it is now and take samples one at a time, experimenting with reprocessing. If reprocessing doesn't seem to work when using an already alcohol laden sample, then boil off the alcohol from a "clean" sample and try again. The reason being that the soaps and biodiesel are both solvent in alcohol.. Sometimes if the excess alochol volume is removed the soap and glycerol can drop. Not always, as it depends upon the level of reaction completion. But sometimes. This type of tinkering occassionally works with extremely high FFA content feedstock when a batch appears to not have taken. But whatever you do? Don't just "flush" it!!! It not only has an energy value but dumping or flushing it certainly isn't exactly environmentally benign. Doubtful that all the methanol evaporated, even in an open barrel over a month long period. Todd Swearingen Vincent zadworny wrote: hey everyone, first and foremost thanks for everyone who uses this list. i have been learning more than i would have thought in a small amount of time because of the people on this list. and it seems that when ever i have a question there are others at the same point as me asking the same things which make me feel like i am on the right track. after a few ugly batches in my homemade plant (most due to lack of agitation) i have finally produced a good batch. i still have one more wash to go. it is still cloudy and will heat it and pass it through a marine filter to help remove any water left in it. A question about all those crap batches that i have sitting in barrels, they have sat out in the open air and sun for about a month or two and am wondering if they can just go down the drain?? also i have been looking into the process of adding glycerin back into the unreacted mix to try a remix anymore info on that ?? thanks again for all the help past present and future vince z vancouver BC __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Greetings, The last election that I was able to vote in was in 1988. The last time I contacted a Senator to complain about a policy being put in place, I was told that this is not my country and that if I didn't like it I could go back where I came from. I have 4 more years to go before I can apply for citizenship and then I can have a say. While I am not proud of what America has become, I do live here and I am not planning on leaving, so I will take citizenship so I can have a say in how sane or insane life is to be. I don't believe that violence would accomplish much of anything at this point, all it does is get tempers up and brains turned off. Triggering the defence mechanism is not how to effect change for the better. We live a sane life, working to establish a sustainable farm and having the teenagers come and visit and see what we are doing. Some of them are getting rather interested in biofuels, are learning that being cool is worthless, and the value of having the skills to look after oneself. We try to live as if the world was the way we want it to be, funny thing, the people aren't laughing at us as much as they used to. You and I aren't all that far apart. Bright Blessings, Kim At 03:03 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings Robert, Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. I DO vote, Kim. For the first time in my life, during the last election, I held my nose and voted for a Democrat! The problem I saw at that time was that Mr. Kerry didn't seem to be fundamentally different in his platform than was the case for Mr. Bush. Some will argue this with me, but it seems, from my perspective, that we've been dealing with two sides of a single coin for a long time. We've talked about radical reform on this list in the past. The Declaration of Independence advocates the forceful overthrow of any government not acting in the interest of its people. I don't advocate violence, so from my perspective, the reform process begins with discussions of this nature, in forums such as this one. I would like to see greater freedom AND responsibility for individuals. (The latter would include responsibility for bringing children into the world, and a sliding scale for health insurance premiums based upon lifestyle choices. For example, if you smoke, your health insurance should cover palliative care when you develop lung cancer or heart disease, and nothing more. We need to be responsible for our own stupidity!) I would like the Homestead Act reinstated. I would like the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights to extend to citizens, not corporations. I would like local churches to act as catalysts in improving their communities. I want REAL reform of energy policy, with responsible improvements in efficiency, investing in technology and products available RIGHT NOW that can significantly reduce our energy consumption. Education reform, limits on the political power of unions and lobbyists, the abolition of agribusiness, a fundamental redesign of the transportation networks in our cities to reduce dependence on automobiles, investment in infrastructure and a total reformulating of national defense policies are essential. I would like to see a national "propaganda" campaign promoting the values of thrift, of limiting consumption and conservation of resources and wild places. I can go on and on about these kinds of things. . . I vote. I speak out. Those of us who can, should advocate to take our country back. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. Out here in the west, there is quite a bit of animosity toward Quebec for the power it wields in Canadian politics, and the mandate of French language instruction. However, my eldest son is in the French Immersion program because we as a family believe in the benefits of multilingual education. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. There's nothing wrong with identifying with a country, as long as that identity doesn't preclude the merit of someone else belonging to a different country. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-
[Biofuel] Fwd: Ethanol from corn vs Biodiesel from soy,etc.
--- Begin Message --- I have read various estimates about the net fuel gain from the production of ethanol from corn vs the production of biodiesel from soy. (I'm aware that ethanol and biodiesel can be produced from other sources as well, but corn and soy seem to be dominate in the US.) While the estimates vary, I would say that consistently the estimates for soy biodiesel are considerably more favorable than for corn ethanol. I'm poorly informed on the economics of farming, but it would seem that farmers/ag corporations would see a greater profit potential in biodiesel, and that that would be good for the public at large as well. Does anyone have any thoughts/information on why farmers wouldn't switch from corn to soy for the biofuel market? Is it a matter of "market," in the sense that there's more demand for the ethanol? Of the infrastructure cost of switching? Or? I apologize if there is information on this topic in the archives and that I was too inept to find it, and I apologize if my questions are "naive." It seems to me that biofuels will play a critical role in the national security, economy, environment, and human welfare in many countries and I'm trying to educate myself on the issues. Bob --- End Message --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH
Isn't the titration solution a 1% solution and not (one tenth of one percent)? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, July 8, 2005 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH > Hello Bill: > > Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste > into a > file of important notes: > > "KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually > 1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution > instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of > 0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5 > grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH. > So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of > oil." > > "...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's > generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually > about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls > assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9 > grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for > 92% KOH." > > > Ray > > On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Hello Keith and all, > > > > I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your > > > titration > > solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust > for the > > percent > > of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the > basic 3.5 > > grans NaOH > > to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the > > > titration > > solution. > > > > Any help is appreciated. > > > > Bill Clark > > > > ___ > > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg> > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list > archives > > (50,000 > > messages): > > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > -- > Ray or Shiraz Ings > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 1-613-253-1311 > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: > http://www.opera.com/m2/ > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.o rg > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH
Hello Ray, Bill Hello Bill: Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste into a file of important notes: That's okay, I'm the author. I'd have just given the url, so this is better. Anyway, this is the url: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Make your own biodiesel - More about lye Best wishes Keith "KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually 1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of 0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5 grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH. So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of oil." "...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9 grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for 92% KOH." Ray On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Keith and all, I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your titration solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for the percent of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 3.5 grans NaOH to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the titration solution. Any help is appreciated. Bill Clark -- Ray or Shiraz Ings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-613-253-1311 Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] out with the wash
hey everyone, first and foremost thanks for everyone who uses this list. i have been learning more than i would have thought in a small amount of time because of the people on this list. and it seems that when ever i have a question there are others at the same point as me asking the same things which make me feel like i am on the right track. after a few ugly batches in my homemade plant (most due to lack of agitation) i have finally produced a good batch. i still have one more wash to go. it is still cloudy and will heat it and pass it through a marine filter to help remove any water left in it. A question about all those crap batches that i have sitting in barrels, they have sat out in the open air and sun for about a month or two and am wondering if they can just go down the drain?? also i have been looking into the process of adding glycerin back into the unreacted mix to try a remix anymore info on that ?? thanks again for all the help past present and future vince z vancouver BC__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH
Hello Bill: Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste into a file of important notes: "KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually 1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of 0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5 grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH. So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of oil." "...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9 grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for 92% KOH." Ray On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Keith and all, I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your titration solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for the percent of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 3.5 grans NaOH to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the titration solution. Any help is appreciated. Bill Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Ray or Shiraz Ings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-613-253-1311 Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
...struck a nerve did I. :>) Okay, mission accomplished :>) :>):>) Jerry Turner No it's not. You made some very wild claims and six list members have questioned you on them. It says this in the List rules too: "If someone questions you, don't just ignore them. You should be prepared to substantiate what you say, or to acknowledge it if you can't. Admitting you were wrong doesn't mean you "lose face", it gains you respect." http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-May/07.html Your mission will be accomplished when you've responded with something more substantial than a two-line sneer. You have one day. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Jill, Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr. Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting one or two of my remarks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Jill, I think your lengthy posting about the content of this list was well-intentioned, but as a number of responses have indicated, problematic for some of us. Just a few things I wanted to point out. Regarding your statement that "Baghdad, for the past 30 [1975-2005] years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support." It is my understanding that in February 1982 the State Department (under the Reagan Administration) removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. And then there's the (in?)famous meeting of current Defense Secretary Rumsfeld with Saddam Hussein in which areas of common interest were discussed. You also mention that Iran and North Korea would love to destroy us, although you do imply maybe the driving force in North Korea is their unstable leader. Statements like that bring to mind other statements, usually made by those on the far right and irresponsible talk show types, along the lines that we should bomb the offending countries into smithereens. Sadly tens of millions of innocent individuals, most of whom have suffered hugely under the evil leaders who are perceived to, or actually, threaten us, would die or suffer even more enormously. So a caution to avoid talking as though countries or their peoples are necessarily the ones posing the threats per se. Regarding Iraq as a healthy country, I do not see it as a healthy development that Iraq's leadership is thumbing it's nose at us by entering into military relationships with Iran, who you'll remember was one of George Bush's Axis of Evil and in his words, a leading sponsor of terrorism. Finally, your quote from Rush included some high-minded words. However, I see a great deal of dissonance between those words and the hateful, fear mongering, words that too often spew from his mouth. Interesting that he speaks of "God-given freedom." Well, as a sometime agnostic, I can't say what God's role has been in our freedoms. What I can say, and say unequivocably I think -- as someone who has served during the Vietnam era and the descendant of many generations of soldiers -- is that our freedoms were earned in significant part by the blood and dedication of many brave individuals. It certainly angers me to no end to hear the pontifications of the "chicken hawks" who support the Iraq war and question the patriotism of anyone who questions Bush & Co.'s motivations or competence in waging this war. (Sorry, I just had to vent on that last one.) Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hello Bill You end with this: > Give us arguments that haven't > already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't > give us any more arguments at all. Yes. which was proceeded by this: > Don't try to dictate to them what > they should or shouldn't discuss here. > > Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read > anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all > the while. Yes. Quite hypocritical of you. No. I suggest you take your own adviceif you don't like what Jill has to say, don't read it. There are a couple of things you fail to notice. One is this: > The list wasn't born yesterday. There are 50,000 messages in > the archives, posted over five years from all over the world. Five years. Jill's a newcomer, that was her first message, and you've only been here a couple of months. Another is that the List rules I referred to say it's a discussion list, not a less-discussion list, and it's not an endlessly repeated discussion list either. The rules encourage members to use the archives, to prevent just that, among other things. Some subjects are worth another airing, but this isn't one of them. Threads have had to be stopped before now, with loud demand from the general membership, because they were going round and round and getting nowhere, and in fact chasing people away. One of them went on for about 200 futile posts. It's not a fruitless-argument list either. And you're not the one to decide, you don't even have a keyhole view. And spare me this puerile 'advice' of suggesting she should wade through thousands of messages. Why should she waste her time? I won't spare you. Puerile yourself. For the record, Noam Chomsky is the goofball that first denied that the Khmer Rouge were committing genocide in Cambodia, and then when the facts of what had gone on there came out, changed his tune and blamed it on the US. If that doesn't tell you something about his credibility (or rather lack of), nothing will. For the record huh. Much of this record is also to be found in previous discussions in the list archives, and it's a different record. In fact it's just slander, it's been discredited and corrected many times, but it keeps getting regurgitated nonetheless, by the WSJ, for instance. Some people believe what they want to believe and judge "credibility" by how well it fits with their cherished notions and comfortable assumptions. Try checking it against verifiable facts instead. This is what Chomsky and Herman wrote about the Khmer Rouge: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/7706-distortions.html Distortions at 4th Hand Other cases are dealt with by Christopher Hitchens in an investigatioin of the charges being levelled against Chomsky: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/other/85-hitchens.html The Chorus and Cassandra From the record, please provide credible, well-reasoned and well-referenced evidence that what you say happened with Chomsky and the Khmer Rouge really did happen and what Chomsky and Hitchens say didn't happen. The usual tactics of kicking up a smokescreen or label-and-dismiss sight unseen, what you just did with Chomsky, won't be acceptable. When you've done that explain how it discredits what he is now saying about Iraq. Something else you didn't notice was that my message to Jill was signed "List owner", and so is this one to you. In other words I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Regards Bill Fenech On 7/8/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ulp... Um, welcome new member Jill. > > Well, it's a nice clear picture of the disconnect anyway, sheer > essence of mass cognitive dissonance. Totally fact-free but totally > confident too and I'll bet it's undentable. It couldn't have survived > this far if it wasn't undentable, in view of the glut of disproofs, > revelations and admissions which shot it all down long ago. I'm not > even going to try, I just hope I get to stick to that. > > A warning from the list owner, Jill, see below. > > >Okay, > > > >I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now > >I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? > > When you joined the list you were sent a "Welcome" message, which > you're obliged to read. It referred to the List rules, which you're > also obliged to read. The List rules are here: > http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 > 5-May/07.html > > See especially the first two sections, "Rights and obligations" and > "Open discussion", and the "Note" at the end. > > You joined for your own reasons to talk about what you want to talk > about, and so did everyone else here. You talk about respect but you > don't acknowledge that each of them has as much right as you do to > their very diverse range of views. Don't try to dictate to
[Biofuel] E85 vs Biodiesel
I just joined this list after I came across it while "googling" for information on ethanol and biodiesel fueled vehicles. One question that I was researching concerned the cost-effectiveness of E85 vs biodiesel fueled cars. The answer may be out there in Internet land, but so far I haven't found it. I'll continue my search, but perhaps someone out there has the answer and can save me some time. I currently drive a 2004 Prius (43,000 miles so far, and it's a fantastic vehicle for getting around. MPG ranges from low 40s to upper 50s, depending on temperature, traffic, speed, etc.). As far as I can tell, the Prius cannot use E85, although I would hope a future version will. ASSUMING I could buy an E85 compatible Prius in the near future or, as an alternative, a biodiesel fueled VW of similar size, functionality, etc., to the Prius, which would be the cost-effective choice? Any thoughts/insights on this question would be appreciated. (With the political situations in the oil producing countries becoming only more problematic [I wonder what George W. & Co. thought when they found out that Iran, one of the Axis of Evil countries, is initiating military cooperation with "free" Iraq], I would expect that interest in biofuels will be accelerating even more than it has the past few years.) BTW, does anyone know what price range E85 is selling for in the US mid-Atlantic states? Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Jerry Turner, "Struck a nerve?" Hardly. Just that this house doesn't cotton to fools all that well. "Mission accomplished?" So your intent is to lavishly spew ignorance and stupidity? You don't have anything better to do with the one human existance you were graciously given? Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Waste the talents you were given in destructive pursuit. Take as many as you like along with you. I for one, consider that to be the mindset of a terrorist. Every bit as lethal in its own right and equally as destructive. If there is a God, no doubt neither he or she is terribly pleased with the wastefulness of your endeavors.. Todd Swearingen Jerry Turner wrote: ...struck a nerve did I. :>) Okay, mission accomplished :>) :>):>) Jerry Turner - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Jill, Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr. Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting one or two of my remarks. On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be public for the entire world to see. Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities. And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming, nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone. As for your complaints about "talk show chatter?" You bitch about opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing, "so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth" talk show host yesterday. What's up with that? You say that differing opinions are "what's beautiful about this country." (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion. Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble standards on those two accounts? Such incongruities are okay when they suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from which to bitch? Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but "if") pulling up but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve themselves. Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre near you. Todd Swearingen "Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?" Jill Mello wrote: Okay, I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debate runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves up, encouraged the terrorist tra
[Biofuel] Raising Chickens
Hello, I just finished reading Friend Earthworm by George Sheffield Oliver. Is anyone using these methods successfully today to raise poultry? It makes some sense and would seem to keep costs low. I might give it a try myself after ramping up biodiesel production. The cost structure must need some updating. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
...struck a nerve did I. :>) Okay, mission accomplished :>) :>):>) Jerry Turner - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Jill, Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr. Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting one or two of my remarks. On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be public for the entire world to see. Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities. And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming, nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone. As for your complaints about "talk show chatter?" You bitch about opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing, "so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth" talk show host yesterday. What's up with that? You say that differing opinions are "what's beautiful about this country." (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion. Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble standards on those two accounts? Such incongruities are okay when they suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from which to bitch? Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but "if") pulling up but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve themselves. Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre near you. Todd Swearingen "Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?" Jill Mello wrote: >Okay, > >I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, >now >I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debate >runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks >tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not >stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to >get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of >us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. > >Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If >YOU >look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. >Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the >most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've >reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news >and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality >is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves >up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe >have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us >with creating nuclear arms. > >Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is a >complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Both >would love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country will >help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists. > >You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this >country. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture >is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained >in them fro
Re: Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
You end with this: > Give us arguments that haven't > already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't > give us any more arguments at all. which was proceeded by this: > Don't try to dictate to them what > they should or shouldn't discuss here. > > Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read > anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all > the while. Quite hypocritical of you. I suggest you take your own adviceif you don't like what Jill has to say, don't read it. And spare me this puerile 'advice' of suggesting she should wade through thousands of messages. Why should she waste her time? For the record, Noam Chomsky is the goofball that first denied that the Khmer Rouge were committing genocide in Cambodia, and then when the facts of what had gone on there came out, changed his tune and blamed it on the US. If that doesn't tell you something about his credibility (or rather lack of), nothing will. Regards Bill Fenech On 7/8/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ulp... Um, welcome new member Jill. > > Well, it's a nice clear picture of the disconnect anyway, sheer > essence of mass cognitive dissonance. Totally fact-free but totally > confident too and I'll bet it's undentable. It couldn't have survived > this far if it wasn't undentable, in view of the glut of disproofs, > revelations and admissions which shot it all down long ago. I'm not > even going to try, I just hope I get to stick to that. > > A warning from the list owner, Jill, see below. > > >Okay, > > > >I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now > >I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? > > When you joined the list you were sent a "Welcome" message, which > you're obliged to read. It referred to the List rules, which you're > also obliged to read. The List rules are here: > http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 > 5-May/07.html > > See especially the first two sections, "Rights and obligations" and > "Open discussion", and the "Note" at the end. > > You joined for your own reasons to talk about what you want to talk > about, and so did everyone else here. You talk about respect but you > don't acknowledge that each of them has as much right as you do to > their very diverse range of views. Don't try to dictate to them what > they should or shouldn't discuss here. > > Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read > anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all > the while. > > It also says this in the List rules: "If you don't see what you're > interested in, just ask. Or check the archives first to see if it has > been dealt with previously, and then ask." > > It would be nice if you were respectful enough to check what's gone > before instead of forcing us to go through it all over again yet > another time, at this belated stage when it's way beyond any credible > defence. The list wasn't born yesterday. There are 50,000 messages in > the archives, posted over five years from all over the world. Check > what you're claiming in the archives first, which doesn't mean just > ignoring everything that disagrees with you. You're not exactly the > first to make these claims, but nobody's made any of them stick, nor > even managed to make a half-decent case once there were facts to be > faced rather than just myths. Can you give us any arguments that > haven't already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives > and everywhere else too? > > Seriously, check it first. Don't expect us to do it for you and waste > our time digging it all up again, do your own homework, we did ours > already. We've dealt with all your arguments before, they are found > wanting, to put it very mildly. Give us arguments that haven't > already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't > give us any more arguments at all. > > Best wishes > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > KYOTO Pref., Japan > http://journeytoforever.org/ > Biofuel list owner > > > >This debate > >runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks > >tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not > >stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to > >get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of > >us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. > > > >Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU > >look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. > >Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the > >most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've > >reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news > >and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality > >is that Hussein PA
[Biofuel] Titrating with KOH
Hello Keith and all, I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your titration solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for the percent of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 3.5 grans NaOH to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the titration solution. Any help is appreciated. Bill Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings Robert, Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. I DO vote, Kim. For the first time in my life, during the last election, I held my nose and voted for a Democrat! The problem I saw at that time was that Mr. Kerry didn't seem to be fundamentally different in his platform than was the case for Mr. Bush. Some will argue this with me, but it seems, from my perspective, that we've been dealing with two sides of a single coin for a long time. We've talked about radical reform on this list in the past. The Declaration of Independence advocates the forceful overthrow of any government not acting in the interest of its people. I don't advocate violence, so from my perspective, the reform process begins with discussions of this nature, in forums such as this one. I would like to see greater freedom AND responsibility for individuals. (The latter would include responsibility for bringing children into the world, and a sliding scale for health insurance premiums based upon lifestyle choices. For example, if you smoke, your health insurance should cover palliative care when you develop lung cancer or heart disease, and nothing more. We need to be responsible for our own stupidity!) I would like the Homestead Act reinstated. I would like the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights to extend to citizens, not corporations. I would like local churches to act as catalysts in improving their communities. I want REAL reform of energy policy, with responsible improvements in efficiency, investing in technology and products available RIGHT NOW that can significantly reduce our energy consumption. Education reform, limits on the political power of unions and lobbyists, the abolition of agribusiness, a fundamental redesign of the transportation networks in our cities to reduce dependence on automobiles, investment in infrastructure and a total reformulating of national defense policies are essential. I would like to see a national "propaganda" campaign promoting the values of thrift, of limiting consumption and conservation of resources and wild places. I can go on and on about these kinds of things. . . I vote. I speak out. Those of us who can, should advocate to take our country back. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. Out here in the west, there is quite a bit of animosity toward Quebec for the power it wields in Canadian politics, and the mandate of French language instruction. However, my eldest son is in the French Immersion program because we as a family believe in the benefits of multilingual education. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. There's nothing wrong with identifying with a country, as long as that identity doesn't preclude the merit of someone else belonging to a different country. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
"I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched." Good point Kim. We have been effected by (infected with) the legacy of both Luther and Calvin. MAX WEBER ON RELIGION AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENThttp://www.unm.edu/~nvaldes/371/Lect17.htm Mike Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Greetings Robert,Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it? Most people, even here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched.Have a good weekend.Bright Blessings,Kim___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Greetings Robert, Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it? Most people, even here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched. Have a good weekend. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:24 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush. Perhaps you are correct. However, the perception of the United States in much of the world is fundamentally different than the perception of Canada, and a great part of that perception stems from American foreign policy. I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same. You bring up an excellent point, Kim. Others have also underlined the concept that the U.S. is merely the latest in a LONG STRING of international bullies. The problem with my nation begins somewhere in the human heart. The same is true elsewhere. Kim A World citizen with a Canadian passport. robert luis rabello A citizen of God's Kingdom with an American passport. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush. Perhaps you are correct. However, the perception of the United States in much of the world is fundamentally different than the perception of Canada, and a great part of that perception stems from American foreign policy. I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same. You bring up an excellent point, Kim. Others have also underlined the concept that the U.S. is merely the latest in a LONG STRING of international bullies. The problem with my nation begins somewhere in the human heart. The same is true elsewhere. Kim A World citizen with a Canadian passport. robert luis rabello A citizen of God's Kingdom with an American passport. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Chris wrote: "Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved in the 9/11 attack..." "Of the 120 terrorism cases recorded on Findlaw, the major information source for legal cases of note, the initial major charges leveled have resulted in only two actual terrorism convictions -- both in a single case, that of Richard Reid, the notorious shoe bomber. Of 18 actual charges of "terrorism" brought between September 2001 and October 2004, 15 are still pending and one was dismissed." http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=2256 This doesn't count the "enemy combatants" who are left with their captors and accusers as their judge jury and executioners. It also doesn't count the unknown number of prisoners who have been taken to proxy torturers as part of the "extraordinary rendition" program, in order to bypass human rights laws to which our government has previously agreed to honor. While we are prosecuting and torturing the potentially innocent, there is almost no notice of the war crimes committed by the current administration of which the Downing Street memos provide evidence. "May 17 - The White House's top lawyer warned more than two years ago that U.S. officials could be prosecuted for "war crimes" as a result of new and unorthodox measures used by the Bush administration in the war on terrorism, according to an internal White House memo and interviews with participants in the debate over the issue." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/site/newsweek/ Mike Chris Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
[Biofuel] A look in the mirror for America
Live! From Boston, Massachusettes and the Boston Globe, it's A look in the mirror for America By Derrick Z. Jackson | July 8, 2005 http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/08/a_look_in_the_mirror_for_america/ IN HIS INITIAL reaction yesterday to the London transit bombings, President Bush decried ''people killing innocent people." He said: ''The contrast couldn't be clearer between the intentions and the hearts of those of us who care deeply about human rights and human liberty and those who kill -- those who have got such evil in their heart that they will take the lives of innocent folks." This came a week and a half after Bush invoked the innocent in his Fort Bragg, N.C., speech in an attempt to shore up sagging American support for his invasion and occupation of Iraq. Doggedly tying 9/11 to Saddam Hussein even though no tie existed, Bush said of global terrorists: ''There is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who exploded car bombs along a busy shopping street in Baghdad, including one outside a mosque. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who sent a suicide bomber to a teaching hospital in Mosul. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who behead civilian hostages and broadcast their atrocities for the world to see." Bush also said the enemy will fail. ''The terrorists can kill the innocent, but they cannot stop the advance of freedom," he said. Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair said the ''slaughter of innocent people" will fail to cower the British people, and Canada's Prime Minister Paul Martin called the attack an ''unspeakable attack on the innocent." It was all appropriate in the moment. In a greater context, there is a tragic hollowness. The world, of course, shares the sympathies of Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, who said the London bombings were a ''despicable, cowardly act." Yet every invoking of the innocents also reminds us of our despicable, cowardly killing of innocent Iraqi civilians. Or perhaps you forgot about them. That was by design. We have rightfully mourned the loss of nearly 3,000 people on 9/11. We have begun mourning the loss of about 40 people in London. We have mourned the loss of 1,751 US soldiers, who, bless them, were following orders of their commander in chief. But to this day, there has been no major acknowledgement, let alone apology, by Bush or Blair for the massive amounts of carnage we created in a war waged over what turned out to be a lie, the nonexistent weapons of mass destruction. These innocents never existed, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. ''We don't do body counts," said both General Tommy Franks, former Iraqi commander, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. When Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt was asked about the images of American soldiers killing innocent civilians on Arab television, Kimmitt said: ''My solution is quite simple: Change the channel. Change the channel to a legitimate, authoritative, honest news station. The stations that are showing Americans intentionally killing women and children are not legitimate news sources. That is propaganda. And that is lies." The United States waged its own war of propaganda by refusing to conduct a legitimate, authoritative, honest accounting of the deaths of innocent civilians. As it urged people to change the channel, the Bush administration cut off all channels to finding out what we did to women, men, and children who were shopping, working, or leaving their mosques. In an invasion based on falsehoods, the truth of the civilian carnage might have been too hard for Americans to take, and support for the war might have ended in the first few weeks. The propaganda of an invasion with invisible innocents surely allowed Bush to seamlessly switch his stated reason from the unique horrors of WMD to liberating an oppressed people. It is a lot easier to tell the world you are their great liberator if you do not have to own up to the thousands of dead people who will never get the chance to vote in that free election. It sounds a little bit like people who say African-Americans should be thankful for slavery because they are no longer in Africa. Worse, this denial of death, in a war that did not have to happen, is sure to fuel the very terrorism we say we will defeat. The innocents in the so-called war on terror are always ''our" citizens or the citizens of our allies. The only innocent Iraqis are those killed by ''insurgents." Our soldiers clearly did not intend to kill innocents. But this posturing of America as the great innocent, when everyone knows we kill innocents ourselves, is likely only to make us look more like the devil in the eyes of a suicide bomber. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Greetings, I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush. Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by Canada for electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense of not allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal. Canada is as much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US is. I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same. Bright Blessings, Kim A World citizen with a Canadian passport. At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember the FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures act is fully equal to the patriot act. And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime. Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense. That wasn't my point, Kim. You are correct that every nation has its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA (remember them?) was a domestic organization. What I'm trying to communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the attitudes people maintain toward the United States. Do you disagree? robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Ulp... Um, welcome new member Jill. Well, it's a nice clear picture of the disconnect anyway, sheer essence of mass cognitive dissonance. Totally fact-free but totally confident too and I'll bet it's undentable. It couldn't have survived this far if it wasn't undentable, in view of the glut of disproofs, revelations and admissions which shot it all down long ago. I'm not even going to try, I just hope I get to stick to that. A warning from the list owner, Jill, see below. Okay, I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? When you joined the list you were sent a "Welcome" message, which you're obliged to read. It referred to the List rules, which you're also obliged to read. The List rules are here: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-May/07.html See especially the first two sections, "Rights and obligations" and "Open discussion", and the "Note" at the end. You joined for your own reasons to talk about what you want to talk about, and so did everyone else here. You talk about respect but you don't acknowledge that each of them has as much right as you do to their very diverse range of views. Don't try to dictate to them what they should or shouldn't discuss here. Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all the while. It also says this in the List rules: "If you don't see what you're interested in, just ask. Or check the archives first to see if it has been dealt with previously, and then ask." It would be nice if you were respectful enough to check what's gone before instead of forcing us to go through it all over again yet another time, at this belated stage when it's way beyond any credible defence. The list wasn't born yesterday. There are 50,000 messages in the archives, posted over five years from all over the world. Check what you're claiming in the archives first, which doesn't mean just ignoring everything that disagrees with you. You're not exactly the first to make these claims, but nobody's made any of them stick, nor even managed to make a half-decent case once there were facts to be faced rather than just myths. Can you give us any arguments that haven't already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives and everywhere else too? Seriously, check it first. Don't expect us to do it for you and waste our time digging it all up again, do your own homework, we did ours already. We've dealt with all your arguments before, they are found wanting, to put it very mildly. Give us arguments that haven't already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't give us any more arguments at all. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner This debate runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us with creating nuclear arms. Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is a complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Both would love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country will help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists. You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this country. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained in them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to help alleviate this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but what is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, but not one that tears others down. I ask that if you are posting to a public site, like this one, that you keep it respectful. A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday, If we were united in this country, if we all unders
Re: [Biofuel] Help!
Greetings to you bio-fuelers, Greetings J., welcome, I am new to this list serve and signed up hoping to find some advice. I recently heard the end of the NPR (National Public Radio) program that featured Mike Pelly. The full sound file is linked from this previous message: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-June/000897.html [Biofuel] Mike Pelly on National Public Or: http://snipurl.com/g4b9 Through that program I became VERY interested in biodiesel. I have been doing some reading on the net and I now have some questions for you all. Here they are: 1) Where can I learn first hand the "how to's" in preparing SVO and Used Vegetable Oil as a diesel fuel to be used in a vehicle. Are there workshops out there somewhere? I live in NE Iowa. I have read the step-by-step directions on the net, but I would still like to witness this procedure so that I can feel comfortable with it. There are various workshops, you can probably find out about them here, some good some not so good. Most biodieselers learn on their own, most of them aren't chemists or engineers. When we started all we could find was 13 not very clear paragraphs on the Internet, and many others can say something similar. Now there's great information available, all you need to know and more, and forums like this one where more experienced people are happy to help you along. Just do it, do it right. 2) I would like to buy a small diesel-burning pick-up that gets good gas mileage and can burn SVO. Any suggestions? Stay away from Stanadyne or Lucas-CAV injector pumps. 3) Since I am not a mechanic, where can I get VERY CLEAR information on what needs to be done to my diesel vehicle so that it can burn SVO? Have a look at these recent messages, check the whole thread starting here: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-June/thread.html#750 Or: http://snipurl.com/g4bp Or here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51618.html Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel The rest of the thread is linked at the end of the page. We're upgrading the SVO pages at the Journey to Forever website, it'll take a few days and there'll be more information then, meanwhile it's worth a look anyway: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever I would appreciate any help you could give me regarding my questions. Gratefully, J. Schwab ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] RE:Jill and her defenxe of US aggression in foreign countries
Well, Jill, as a Canadian, or should I say an individual who is from Canada and from what I observe, I do not agree. I believe you are existing in a country that has capitalized on the short term removal of the USSR as a perceived world power, and has become pretty much what society had feared from the USSR. As a case in point, I understand that recent polls throughout Europe now view the US as the greatest threat to world peace, they now term the US as an aggressor. Personally I see a country that has departed from democracy, and is now ruled by a government out of control. Having said this, don't be surprised if I do not continue to participate in a discussion of this, ... I have found for my peace of mind in need to limit the attention I offer to this line of thinking as I attempt to design a peaceful and pleasant life for myself, family, and friends. I too joined this list to learn about bio-diesel and continue to recognize my choice to read or delete according to the subject line. Please know that even if you find my opinion offensive, I consider this to be a detached and mechanical conclusion and will continue to view the American people as individual friends and allies. I do not believe informed citizens of your country would approve of your governments actions if you had the facts before you. Wes Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Okay, I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debate runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us with creating nuclear arms. Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is a complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Both would love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country will help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists. You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this country. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained in them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to help alleviate this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but what is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, but not one that tears others down. I ask that if you are posting to a public site, like this one, that you keep it respectful. A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday, If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard. But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes into buildings. - Rush Best regards, Jill Mello - Original Message -
Re: [Biofuel] emissions
No. The same amount of CO2, is used by the oil producing plants, as they grow. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "john owens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 19:13 Subject: [Biofuel] emissions here's a tought What will happen if the majority of the waste vegtable oil in the world is being used for biodiesel which isnt curently being burned and is absorbing some of the co2 being produced by mineral diesel and production and mineral oil consumption growes. Will this not cause an increase in co2 in atmospher! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] emissions Vol 3, Issue 30
1. Re: emissions (the skapegoat) Message: 1 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:59:22 +0100 (BST) From: the skapegoat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] emissions To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org john owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: here's a tought What will happen if the majority of the waste vegtable oil in the world is being used for biodiesel which isnt curently being burned and is absorbing some of the co2 being produced by mineral diesel and production and mineral oil consumption growes. Will this not cause an increase in co2 in atmospher! John, All things Carbon exchange in carbon dioxide and oxygen- for time imemorial. A BIT of an exageration, but- Trees, dogs, fish, humans, machines, worms... Et al. The question is that the earth has maintained a healthy and vibrant equilibrim with this equation so long as the source of the Carbon dioxide is within the Green cycle. I mean to say- is derived from what is living on the surface of the earth at this moment, and the immediate decomposition of the above. Our problem came when we extracted from the carbon that lived on the earth's surface long ago, and added that CO2 to the present day cycle. THEN we overloaded the atmospheric balance on the side of CO2... With obvious side effects. All this to affirm that- burning Biofuel DOES ALSO emit CO2, but since it is cycling within the surface of the earth's alotted amount, it is not adding nor detracting. Add to that the removal of SULPHUR from BioFuel (which Mineral has) and the great reduction of microparticulate matter (which Mineral has) and with BioDiesel we are being PRETTY inoccuous. The greater concern is HOW to provide this resource to the SHIPPING / FREIGHT industries- greatest users of Diesel by far, without overloading the soil? Adrian -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Jill, At 03:23 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Okay, I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debate runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. You are right, epithets like that are not nice. Everything are about views based the level of education on the issue, information, misinformation, manipulated or not manipulated facts, propaganda and manipulation. If I think that someone do not have any base to say that the war was essential for your physical security and you hold that opinion, then the statement would include you. Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us with creating nuclear arms. "ALL The information out there" is quite clear on the following, Here we go and it is quite obvious that you are ignorant, misinformed and a victim of your government's propaganda. Baghdad have NOT been a hotbed of terrorist support the last 30 years. Iraq have been a staunch supporter of an occupied and suppressed refugee population, together with other Arab countries and to a lesser degree than for example Saudi Arabia. Hussein gave economic support to the surviving families of Palestine fighters, who had been involved in suicide attacks against the occupiers. This have never been a threat against US. Hussein have not encouraged terrorist training camp and you must give me the direct proof of this, because I cannot find any valid ones. On the contrary, he supported US with a war against Iran, when the US appointed Iranian King was toppled by the Iranian people and their religious leaders. Hussein and Iraq never gave Osama bin Laden any safe haven. It is a lot of information about the contrary and that Osama bin Laden and Hussein were bitter enemies. This about worked with Syria to give your enemies comfort, is too vague and without substance too be possible to analyze and argue. Is the statement only your brainchild or can you give me some substance? The whole Bush propaganda, about WMD has in all its aspects been proven to be without any substance. No WMDs or program to produce them have been found in Iraq. In UK this is a big scandal and Blair is suffering from it, but the Americans seems to be more tolerant about their government's lies about it. Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is a complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Both would love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country will help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists. You are repeating your government's propaganda on this issue, it is also many opposite views on this. This is however fortune telling and judging from the ways things are today, it is little support for the validity of your statement. I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population that to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15 years of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their situation? I will take several generations for the Iraqis to forget and forgive the Americans. I live in Spain and what happened in the civil war, 65 years ago, is still a sensitive issue. You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this country. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained in them from birth. I have the right to have my opinion on this, based on historical facts plus mine and others experiences in Europe. My opinion is that you are trying to sell naive dreams to me and that they are based o
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember the FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures act is fully equal to the patriot act. And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime. Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense. That wasn't my point, Kim. You are correct that every nation has its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA (remember them?) was a domestic organization. What I'm trying to communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the attitudes people maintain toward the United States. Do you disagree? robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings, Yes, 100% grass fed beef and lamb are only sold directlly by farmers. If you go to www.eatwild.com like Keith suggested, you will find lots of information and local listings of suppliers. Also, there are some producers that are listed at www.localharvest.org A great place to find a local CSA. Some farmer's markets are also selling grass fed meat. I don't know anyone who has made it into the stores with their meat. This is one of the things that keeps the price so high. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:40 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Kim, How do we know what is pasture fed, non-hormonal beef, and corporate farm beef? I am in the process of quitting beef right now, mostly because of mad cow. I have a friend who is director of an E Coli testing lab in Colorado and the things he tells me makes me want to stay away. It tastes so good though. Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it in stores? Thanks, Ryan - Original Message - From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed meat, this would really help. The agribusiness guys are having too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the stumbling blocks they put in our way. Even though it does cost us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our meat. If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. Bright Blessings, Kim A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb. At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, "sane food industry" = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. >> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Gustl, If we do not then our government and those supporting its actions are no better than those who did the deed on 9/11. It would seem we are worse still. They wanted revenge for something we did long ago, we want money. Furthermore, they took something like 4 hours to do their damage. We have been in Iraq since the beginning of 2003. So we are at 2 years and counting. And still polls are showing that around 58% of the country supports staying in Iraq (abc news poll http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=885745 ) I haven't watched television in about 2 months, so I'm not really up and up on what I'm supposed to believe. Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Ryan said: > Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it > in stores? You can check this out. I stumbled across it earlier. http://www.eatwild.com/products/index.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Jill, Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr. Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting one or two of my remarks. On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be public for the entire world to see. Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities. And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming, nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone. As for your complaints about "talk show chatter?" You bitch about opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing, "so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth" talk show host yesterday. What's up with that? You say that differing opinions are "what's beautiful about this country." (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion. Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble standards on those two accounts? Such incongruities are okay when they suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from which to bitch? Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but "if") pulling up but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve themselves. Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre near you. Todd Swearingen "Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?" Jill Mello wrote: Okay, I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debate runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us with creating nuclear arms. Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is a complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Both would love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country will help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists. You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this country. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained in them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to help alleviate this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but what is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, but not one that tears others down. I ask th
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Greetings, Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember the FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures act is fully equal to the patriot act. And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime. Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:17 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Jerry Turner wrote: snip This is a tired argument. How many terrorist attacks have occurred in Canada? (Count them, it should tell you something important.) Has it ever occurred to you that the best defense against international terrorism consists of maintaining cordial relations with other nations? You err because you assume that no causal relationship exists between American foreign policy and the 11 September atrocity. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings Robert, I do happen to know personally the people who have a legal raw milk dairy in Texas and their cows are 100% grass fed. If your grass is up to snuff, then there is no difference. What I have found is that it takes more time and energy and a real learning curve to keep pasture in the condition that is needed to raise animals on just grass. When I brought my cow home, she was lactating, but, I had trouble remembering how to milk a cow.[I had done it once at age 10.] My grass is not all it could be. I am getting there, but I am not there yet. Alysha and Ben hire people to come in and apply compost tea to their pasture and to re-seed it for them, etc. They have fabulous pasture and their milk tastes wonderful. We bought our cows from the same commercial dairy, but they bought top of the line and I bought bottom. They are getting 3 or 4 gallons of milk from each cow, per day on a once a day milking. I have had neighbors that tell me I am going to starve my animals, but slowly they are beginning to understand that my animals get real fuel out of my grass. More than their animals get out of their grass because I don't make the poor animal try to digest 2 incompatible feeds. There will be a drop in production when you change, especially if you do it abruptly. Once the rumen is adjusted to the new feeding regimen, it is harmful to feed grains. If you want further information, I am sure I could put you in touch with the owners of the commercial 100% grass fed raw dairy, Ben and Alysha. Bright Blessings, Kim I have a question I'd like to pose to those of you who are growing grass fed cattle. What happens with milk production? I've had several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk. Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
> several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk. Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response.< Most modern high yield milkers need some food/mineral supplements, normally fed at milking time. Older breeds that only produce half the milk can get by on natural food but still may need mineral supplements depending on the ground the grass/fodder is grown on. Wild cattle only produce enough milk for one or two calves. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 08/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Kim, How do we know what is pasture fed, non-hormonal beef, and corporate farm beef? I am in the process of quitting beef right now, mostly because of mad cow. I have a friend who is director of an E Coli testing lab in Colorado and the things he tells me makes me want to stay away. It tastes so good though. Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it in stores? Thanks, Ryan - Original Message - From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed meat, this would really help. The agribusiness guys are having too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the stumbling blocks they put in our way. Even though it does cost us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our meat. If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. Bright Blessings, Kim A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb. At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, "sane food industry" = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. >> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] oil drums
> Does anybody know where to start looking for empty 45 gallon oil drums in the UK (west midlands) < Local scrap yards or large garage workshops, they buy oil in bulk and may sell you the barrels. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 08/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
> Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid." < I'm not even sure that he knew about the attack, I saw the first video he put out after 9/11 with the corrected voice over. He never claimed responsibility for himself or his terror groups. He did say he thought that America got what it disserved and the people who did it were heroes. I would have thought that after pulling off an attack like that he would have bragged about it like he did with his attacks in Afghanistan. Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved in the 9/11 attack, the only people arrested/convicted in the UK have been done for "Being members of a terrorist organisation" or even being friends of someone thought to be a member of a terrorist organisation. After arresting nearly 400 people in the UK less than 10 have been convicted or sent to the US. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 08/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Jerry Turner wrote: NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!! This is a tired argument. How many terrorist attacks have occurred in Canada? (Count them, it should tell you something important.) Has it ever occurred to you that the best defense against international terrorism consists of maintaining cordial relations with other nations? You err because you assume that no causal relationship exists between American foreign policy and the 11 September atrocity. IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist would have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity. Which they are doing regularly, in Iraq and Afghanistan. Apparently, they killed a bunch of innocent Britons yesterday. This is what happens when we respond to violence with violence. If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it and I know it. Personally, I didn't like Mr. Clinton, but the 11 September events did not take place on his watch. I know that blame is better to give than receive, but your simplistic view of the issue solves nothing. The perspective you've outlined will be the ruination of our country. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Garth & Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. I have a question I'd like to pose to those of you who are growing grass fed cattle. What happens with milk production? I've had several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk. Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response. It seems, however, that so much factory farm mentality has crept into the way food is produced in North America, determining fact from myth is difficult. One of these clients laughed at my garden several weeks ago (after I told her I use no chemical fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides), but commented to me last week in great surprise that our plants are thriving. (Our corn looks every bit as good as hers, she said, even though we're at higher elevation and it's colder and drier where I live than in the valley.) Is the idea that dairy cattle MUST be fed grain in order to produce high quality milk a myth? If so, what on earth did those poor ungulates do when they roamed the prairies in the wild? robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
I believe you're agreeing with Kim's remarks to which I replied but, I agree as well. Jill Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I totally agree with Ken on this. I raise chicken and lamb on pasture. We > give only naturally raised grains to our chickens and rotate both onto fresh > pasture daily. If I could sell more, I could lower my prices! If bad > agribusiness makes you mad, don't blame your local farmer, blame Tyson, > Perdue, Montasano! How many of your beans and vegetables and rice are > raised with seed from Montasano(?) a agrigiant who wipes out other seed > suppliers and supplies GMO modified, untested seeds to the farmer and the > public. Have you checked the seeds you buy? Are they certified organic, > certified naturally grown, certified non-GMO? If they're not, you are > adding to the agribusiness giants who want only to control our food supply > (sounds frightening? It should, and I'm really not an extremist). > > Thanks again Ken, it's what I was thinking! > > Jill Mello > www.MelloFamilyFarm.com > - Original Message - > From: "Ken Dunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: ; "Garth & Kim Travis" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again > > > > Kim > > > If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come > > > down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make > this > > > happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just > puts > > > many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness > > > guys want. > > > > I will say that this is a very compelling argument! > > > > Take care, > > Ken > > > > ___ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
"If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war." People in this forum have found it important to address the effect of misinformation directed at us from the White House, defense department and corporate media which have been, by enlarge, the cause of statements like the one above. If you really feel strongly about defending your current position, I suspect that Todd will not be your only sparring partner in this debate. MikeJill Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Okay,I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, nowI find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debateruns into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbookstremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by notstating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating toget their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all ofus who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOUlook at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, themost liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they'vereviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the newsand in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the realityis that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselvesup, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safehave, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened uswith creating nuclear arms.Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is acomplicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Bothwould love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country willhelp us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about thiscountry. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their cultureis one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrainedin them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to helpalleviate this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, butwhat is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, butnot one that tears others down. I ask that if you are posting to a publicsite, like this one, that you keep it respectful.A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purposehere was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack forour kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- orif there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we'retrying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices ofopposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, andcontinually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheneywant oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as itkeeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all thatmuch more difficult, as World War II would have been that much moredifficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all theothers, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establishcircumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally itdoesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because offreedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beingsaround the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determinetheir own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanesinto buildings. - RushBest regards,Jill Mello- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid> Jerry Turner,>> Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at> least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated> by your own stink.>> Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and> doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war> are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh> air by now - presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your> sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that> wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid.">> One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that> your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your> sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe> it's just anyone with a g
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
I totally agree with Ken on this. I raise chicken and lamb on pasture. We give only naturally raised grains to our chickens and rotate both onto fresh pasture daily. If I could sell more, I could lower my prices! If bad agribusiness makes you mad, don't blame your local farmer, blame Tyson, Perdue, Montasano! How many of your beans and vegetables and rice are raised with seed from Montasano(?) a agrigiant who wipes out other seed suppliers and supplies GMO modified, untested seeds to the farmer and the public. Have you checked the seeds you buy? Are they certified organic, certified naturally grown, certified non-GMO? If they're not, you are adding to the agribusiness giants who want only to control our food supply (sounds frightening? It should, and I'm really not an extremist). Thanks again Ken, it's what I was thinking! Jill Mello www.MelloFamilyFarm.com - Original Message - From: "Ken Dunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ; "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again > Kim > > If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come > > down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this > > happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts > > many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness > > guys want. > > I will say that this is a very compelling argument! > > Take care, > Ken > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Okay, I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debate runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks tremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to get their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all of us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security. Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war. Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us with creating nuclear arms. Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is a complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Both would love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country will help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists. You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this country. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained in them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to help alleviate this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but what is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, but not one that tears others down. I ask that if you are posting to a public site, like this one, that you keep it respectful. A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday, If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard. But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes into buildings. - Rush Best regards, Jill Mello - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid > Jerry Turner, > > Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at > least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated > by your own stink. > > Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and > doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war > are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh > air by now - presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your > sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that > wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid." > > One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that > your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your > sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe > it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all > look alike to you," anyway, right? > > And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset > that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that > they were intentional distractions from his "domestic" concerns. And you > might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his > exit briefing to "Mr." Bush
[Biofuel] oil drums
Does anybody know where to start looking for empty 45 gallon oil drums in the UK (west midlands) Thanks ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Gustl Steiner-Zehender a écrit : Hallo Frantz, The US does allow dual citizenship with conditions. Children born of US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service personnel at the very least. Jews may have dual citizenship no matter where they are born is my understanding. I know folks who have German and US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American father and German mother. Things are not so cut and dried as they may seem. Interesting, I only knew my brother case : after married an american he had to choose US nationality or keep his french EU passport. I believed it was an exclusive choice. I also have family in Germany where the "right of blood" is in use (you are german whereever you're born if you're parents are germans, but you're not automatically german if born in Germany), compared to France where "right of soil" applies (you are french, even from foreign parents if you're born on french soil). Of course nothing is so simple. That makes things exciting... and exhausting. frantz, rather exhausted today ;-) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Kim > If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come > down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this > happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts > many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness > guys want. I will say that this is a very compelling argument! Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
You're welcome. Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ryan Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, and you're most welcome. Best wishes Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Jerry Turner, Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated by your own stink. Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh air by now - presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid." One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all look alike to you," anyway, right? And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that they were intentional distractions from his "domestic" concerns. And you might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his exit briefing to "Mr." Bush, Mr. Clinton warned that the biggest threat to national security at that time was Benladin and Al Quaeda. Unfortunately, the new leader of "the free world" chose to dismiss this advice and declared that a national missile defense system was the biggest national security priority. But you'd rather white wash Bush's blunder and declare it as someone else's fault. Make up your mind. Or, like the rest of uncivil society on your side of the fence, is your expectation to have the best of all worlds and leave reality and truth completely out of your fabricated picture? What seems extremely obvious is the fact that what you "know" is relatively little in comparison to what the rest of the world knows. Todd Swearingen Jerry Turner wrote: NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!! IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist would have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity. If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it and I know it. Jerry Turner - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid See also: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm It's imperialism, stupid By Noam Chomsky 07/05/05 "ICH" - - IN his June 28 speech, President Bush asserted that the invasion of Iraq was undertaken as part of "a global war against terror" that the United States is waging. In reality, as anticipated, the invasion increased the threat of terror, perhaps significantly. Half-truths, misinformation and hidden agendas have characterised official pronouncements about US war motives in Iraq from the very beginning. The recent revelations about the rush to war in Iraq stand out all the more starkly amid the chaos that ravages the country and threatens the region and indeed the world. In 2002 the US and United Kingdom proclaimed the right to invade Iraq because it was developing weapons of mass destruction. That was the "single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush received congressional authorisation to resort to force. The answer to the "single question" was given shortly after the invasion, and reluctantly conceded: The WMD didn't exist. Scarcely missing a beat, the government and media doctrinal system concocted new pretexts and justifications for going to war. "Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw aggression is what took place in Iraq," national security and intelligence analyst John Prados concluded after his careful, extensive review of the documentary record in his 2004 book "Hoodwinked." Prados describes the Bush "scheme to convince America and the world that war with Iraq was necessary and urgent" as "a case study in government dishonesty ... that required patently untrue public statements and egregious manipulation of intelligence." The Downing Street memo, published on May 1 in The Sunday Times of London, along with other newly available confidential documents, have deepened the record of deceit. The memo came from a meeting of Blair's war cabinet on July 23, 2002, in which Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence, made the now-notorious assertion that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy" of going to war in Iraq. The m
[Biofuel] Thanks and an update
Greetings, First I would like to thank everyone that helped me last winter with my research into Indura fabrics. The company has reversed their decision and are now issuing 100% pure cotton uniforms again. My husband managed to avoid having to wear those poisonous ones and I have now donated them to the local fire department, where they belong. We are having a super hot summer. Our plums have come in a month early, my corn is going to be ready a month early and the heat is really affecting all my animals. I have discovered that many heirloom vegetables do not like this heat, as a result, my rabbits are eating more from my garden this summer than I am. However, I do support a chemical free farm that grows hybrids, so I don't have to buy my stuff at the store. I am looking forward to a long drive this fall, as I am bringing home the start of my new sheep flock. We are getting into Gulf Coast Native Sheep and are looking forward to getting to know them better, as well as learning how to shear and deal with the wool. I have been learning how to knit this past spring, so this is exciting. We had Barbados sheep for the last couple of years, but they do not do well with cows, [the cows are scared of them!] and they are so flighty and nervous as well as a constant battle with parasites that we gave up. On the discovery list, apple cider vinegar once a month in the water of all your animals does a wonderful job of keeping parasites at bay. It does not need to be the good stuff either, the cheap stuff seems to work just fine. Chickens require enough room to run, not just walk or they loose the value of being on pasture. It is not just that they eat bugs and grass, but their movement that makes the eggs healthy. Thus the chicken tractor is great for shelter, but must be surrounded by a moveable fence to give a much larger space. I realize that some people can let their birds free range, but I can not. I have too many predators, including my coydog. I would like to thank Keith for turning me on to the soil and heath library. Now I have 2 libraries to get lost in on these hot afternoons while I hide from the heat. The book: Small-Scale Grain Raising has really got me thinking and working. This is something I really wanted to get into, but it is much better to have some information about what I am doing. We discovered a spot on our land that has sandy soil that DRAINS! Now I can have my orchard. I have a couple of olive trees that will be going in the ground come fall and I will buy some Fugi apples, plums, apricots, peaches and satsuma oranges. Both of our cows are suppose to be pregnant, but we will not know for sure for a while yet. My neighbor is offering to pay me to let him run his cows on my land, talk about win/win for me. I refused the money, since if we get real wet, I will be knocking on his door to get my animals to higher ground. I see no reason to pay the government every time we help each other out. I think he finally sees my point. He has quit laughing at me and complimented me on the quality of my grass. Compost tea really does help. We are learning about many other things, aquaponics, vermicomposting and solar ac, but these projects will have to either wait until I have time or until the weather cools off. I still need to make a stir stick of some sort to start making biodiesel, but this project really needs to move up on the list of things to do. The problem is that hubby wants to be in on it, and the barn/workshop is too hot in the evenings to spend any time there. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hallo Frantz, The US does allow dual citizenship with conditions. Children born of US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service personnel at the very least. Jews may have dual citizenship no matter where they are born is my understanding. I know folks who have German and US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American father and German mother. Things are not so cut and dried as they may seem. Happy Happy, Gustl Friday, 08 July, 2005, 03:47:08, you wrote: ...snip... FD> Hakan, FD> a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't FD> allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries. FD> So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother FD> and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and FD> French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, FD> they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US. FD> So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count FD> them as US and the french gov as french citizens. FD> frantz, FD> world citizen FD> ___ FD> Biofuel mailing list FD> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org FD> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org FD> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: FD> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html FD> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): FD> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hallo Jerry, Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 18:16:39, you wrote: JT> NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 JT> AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!! JT> IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the JT> terrorist would have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no JT> they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity. What on earth does this have to do with what is happening in Iraq? There was not one Iraqi among that lot and it has been amply proven that Iraq was not aiding or abetting terrorists, not friendly with bin Laden, had destroyed what US-supplied WMD it did have, was complying with UN requirements albeit slowly and grudgingly and not a threat to anyone outside the immediate region. Chomsky is talking about apples and you're talking about oranges friend. What you are saying is comparable to saying, "Mexico has attacked the United States. We need to defend ourselves therefore we shall attack Canada." There is neither rhyme nor reason to that. Being angry is reasonable. Being a tool is not. The majority of those identified as the perpetrators were Saudi's. Everyone in the government knew that and it was widely reported in our own media yet Bush decided to attack the Iraqi's. He used the events of 9/11 as a reason to push his own twisted agenda and he used the American public as tools to further that agenda. I don't know about you friend, but I don't like being used, I don't like seeing US military personnel killed for no good reason and I most definitely do not like being lumped in with those twisted individuals who think it is fine and dandy to go kill innocent people to push a political agenda. What is happening in Iraq has nothing to do with patriotism, justice, right, morality or anything else. It is entirely about money, politics and a spurious religious belief called Christian reconstructionism or dominionism which is neither Christian nor moral despite its name and is fundamental to neocon philosophy. You need to do your homework friend and connect the dots by the numbers. You have bought into a lie. Your name is new to me so I will let you know that I have 8 years in the military and two Nam tours and belong to the VFW as well. This has nothing to do with patriotism it has to do with ethics and morality and the government has come up lacking. We are in the wrong and it is time we got ourselves straight and right. We can only do this if we have the truth and it is available. Your heart may be in the right place but your head is not brother. It is tough to admit that your country is doing something entirely immoral but the truth is the truth. We were intentionally mislead and we need to correct that. Truth and right require that. If we do not then our government and those supporting its actions are no better than those who did the deed on 9/11. I can't believe that is what you want. Happy Happy, Gustl JT> If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of JT> getting blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never JT> happenedyou know it and I know it. JT> Jerry Turner This started way before Clinton. Blame enough for everyone. ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Greetings, If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed meat. For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed meat, this would really help. The agribusiness guys are having too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the stumbling blocks they put in our way. Even though it does cost us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our meat. If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this happen. Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness guys want. Bright Blessings, Kim A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb. At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, "sane food industry" = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. >> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Niel, First, If you call me "sir", I'll think your addressing my father. Second, let me say that I only wish it was so easy to explain. I get a lot of "You voted for him". No, I did not vote for him. Putting all the blame squarely on the shoulders of the voters is blatantly oversimplified and ignores my previous comments on this countries duopoly and corporate influence. I have yet to see a candidate that I vote for and feel good about (and I'm not alone). We are limited to "bad" and "worse". "...dirty little wars the yanks have caused (list to long to mention )" Agreed. I'm glad you didn't list them. We in this forum already know about the "list" and discussed it in an earlier thread. Every time I look in a phone book, I am reminded of the holocaust that occurred on American soil -- not because of what's in it, but because of what's missing. I also know that every country had a turn at imperialism and committing of atrocities. So, spare me the finger pointing. American voters are being slowly squeezed out of the democratic process (see earlier posts on eminent domain) and a ruling class is victimizing both citizens and non-citizens alike. An earlier post was from a member who addressed himself as a "world citizen". I couldn't agree more. We should look at ourselves as exactly that. MikeNeil Goatman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: sir on the country we of the rest of the world think all americans are as their leaders they let him in (not elected ) so they are all tared with the same bush till they get smart and get rid of him and actually elect someone the world does not see as a bozo war monger ruled by corporations I do not condone terrism but nor do i support the dirty little wars the yanks have caused (list to long to mention ) the money they spend could rid the world of all poverty forever yanky go home was a cry that still applies Neil -Original Message-From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 9:35 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Thanks Kieth.After reading the article by Naom Chomsky, Two things stood out in my mind and two statements keep me from forgetting them. "That (the existence of WMD's) was the "single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush received congressional authorisation to resort to force." "Iraq and other possible conflicts in the future could provide recruitment, training grounds, technical skills and language proficiency for a new class of terrorists who are 'professionalised' and for whom political violence becomes an end in itself." 1.) There is no length to which an American president will go to make a case for war. 2.) There is no length to which an American president will go to perpetuate conflict "in the name of..." As an American citizen, I must believe that there are people in the world who understand that not all Americans stand by this president and that there is a difference between a people and its government. Considering the circumstances of last two elections, the overwhelming cash flow and the influence it bought through the use corporate resources, many of us know who won the last two elections and why. The most disturbing aspect of the last two elections is that under our current duopoly, the victory would not have changed, irrespective of who finally moved into White House. George Bush: "Every life is precious-that's what distinguishes us from the enemy." The irony is incredible!100,000 Excess Iraqi Deaths Since War - Studyhttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-08.htm See also: http://www.restructures.net/chicago/Iraq.htm Impeachable offenses committed without a formal investigation or serious media coverage. ...but don't you dare get caught with a girlfriend in the Oval Office. Peace, Mike This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal - For more information please visit www.marshalsoftware.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Frantz wrote: "USA don't allow dual citizenship" I am a dual citizen of the USA and Switzerland. As far as being citizen of the world, many of us in this forum have already expressed our agreement on that vision. A thread on that can be found in the archives. Mike Frantz DESPREZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hakan Falk a écrit :>> Frantz,>> I have looked at several lists and if you look at the one you> pointed to, it is some lack of definitions. If you look at from> country and citizenship as an example. It is Indian sites that> says the they had 43 victims, the English at 67 seems to> be quite common. I gave up and do not understand why it would> be so difficult with one list on origin and get it accurate.>> The best number I can get for Americans in WTC, is 1,700+> and this is probably quite accurate and common. For the rest,> it is large variations. In Spain the number of Spanish is much> higher and I know of two families who lost a member in WTC> and they are not even mentioned on your list.>> It is often said that the victims represented 115 countries and> your list with 36, is the lowest I have seen.>> It is a mess and I cannot understand why.Hakan,a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries.So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US.So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count them as US and the french gov as french citizens.frantz,world citizen___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hallo Keith, Friends, Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 17:19:26, you wrote: ...snip... >>You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions. KA> ... thanks for saying so! Though not always, I can be "negative" too KA> where necessary, but I do try to point to alternatives. More than KA> that I'd say I'm trying to provide useful information. This forum and KA> these issues are all about empowerment, IMHO, but there's hundreds of KA> billions spent every year on PR, advertising and all the other forms KA> of message massage to try to prevent exactly that, empowerment. And KA> perhaps especially around anything to do with fossil-fuels. Lots of KA> blind alleys, much confusion and frustration, and here in the KA> Information Age most of the information is just noise and smoke to KA> keep you baffled. Good information helps, it's empowering. ...snip... I have only been reading sporadically as I am not yet fully shipshape and Bristol fashion but there is a place for people who recognize the problems and point them out without solutions as long as they are just doing that, pointing the problems out, recognizing them, but not attacking randomly. Sometimes we have a difficult time even recognizing the real root cause of something and we go for treating symptoms rather than curing the disease. It is a matter of how and why it is done, of whether it is to help as one is able or to attack, criticize and defend a partisan position. Makes a world of difference. It's sort of like automobile electrics. It may help to change the bad bulb repeatedly but the problem won't be fixed until you find the short and repair that and then replace the bulb. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
todd, you make an excellent point. i still remember how stunned i was when i first heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the supermarket. And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed nothing else much thrives either. Best Keith also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and cottonseed. i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up for other uses in a more sane food industry (lol, "sane food industry" = oxymoron?). -chris b. In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Reduce the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. >> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hello Jerry NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!! He was writing about the US invasion of Iraq, not about the attack on the WTC. You don't think it's important how many innocent Iraqis have been killed on Iraqi soil at the hands of the US? Plenty of American soldiers have died their too, uselessly, because of a pack of lies, as many soldiers are now saying, you don't care about them either? IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist would have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity. Um, sorry, but what is the connection between the attack on the WTC and the US invasion of Iraq, exactly? Anyway, if you'd read the first link below, the US invasion and occupation have only increased terrorist activity, as so many people said it would at the time, and before. If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it and I know it. "Ignorance isn't what you don't know, it's what you know that ain't so." You'll never understand it if you see it in the polarised American Clinton vs Bush keyhole view. Both were responsible, but especially Bush, as an abundance of evidence, testimony and subsequent revelation of sheer neglect has shown, much of it in the list archive for your convenience. Best wishes Keith Jerry Turner - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid See also: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm It's imperialism, stupid By Noam Chomsky 07/05/05 "ICH" - - IN his June 28 speech, President Bush asserted that the invasion of Iraq was undertaken as part of "a global war against terror" that the United States is waging. In reality, as anticipated, the invasion increased the threat of terror, perhaps significantly. Half-truths, misinformation and hidden agendas have characterised official pronouncements about US war motives in Iraq from the very beginning. The recent revelations about the rush to war in Iraq stand out all the more starkly amid the chaos that ravages the country and threatens the region and indeed the world. In 2002 the US and United Kingdom proclaimed the right to invade Iraq because it was developing weapons of mass destruction. That was the "single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush received congressional authorisation to resort to force. The answer to the "single question" was given shortly after the invasion, and reluctantly conceded: The WMD didn't exist. Scarcely missing a beat, the government and media doctrinal system concocted new pretexts and justifications for going to war. "Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw aggression is what took place in Iraq," national security and intelligence analyst John Prados concluded after his careful, extensive review of the documentary record in his 2004 book "Hoodwinked." Prados describes the Bush "scheme to convince America and the world that war with Iraq was necessary and urgent" as "a case study in government dishonesty ... that required patently untrue public statements and egregious manipulation of intelligence." The Downing Street memo, published on May 1 in The Sunday Times of London, along with other newly available confidential documents, have deepened the record of deceit. The memo came from a meeting of Blair's war cabinet on July 23, 2002, in which Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence, made the now-notorious assertion that "the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy" of going to war in Iraq. The memo also quotes British Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon as saying that "the US had already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure on the regime." British journalist Michael Smith, who broke the story of the memo, has elaborated on its context and contents in subsequent articles. The "spikes of activity" apparently included a coalition air campaign meant to provoke Iraq into some act that could be portrayed as what the memo calls a "casus belli." Warplanes began bombing in southern Iraq in May 2002 - 10 tons that month, according to British government figures. A special "spike" started in late August (for a September total of 54.6 tons). "In other words, Bush and Blair began their war not in March 2003, as everyone believed, but at the end of August 2002, six weeks before Congress approved military action against Iraq," Smith wrote. The bombing was presented as defensive action to protect coalition planes in the no-fly zone. Iraq protest
Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
Hi Ken I am pretty sure that our thinkings on these issues are fairly well in line with one another. I think so too. Sorry If I've been putting you on the defensive, but IMO it's important to get it right, especially in the details. I'm not always quoting you directly, as with this, from previous: For what its worth, I never said anything to the affect that organic farming couldn't feed everyone. I know you didn't, and good for you, but it's the usual objection. Thus with "meat is bad" and "milk is bad". Keith, Along with active and informed opposition to factory farming, industrialised farming and the food industry, that might be more effective than just condemning meat and meat-eaters. "Meat is bad" vs "Do you know where that meat you're eating comes from?" That particular meat. First, I never said "Meat is bad". What I did say was "Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food source." What I should have said is "Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just not a sustainable food staple." But it IS a sustainable food staple. Humans can eat meat sustainably when, as we both have stated, it is eaten in moderation and is carefully farmed. As with all other food. As a matter of fact, my children eat meat and dairy as well. My choice to not eat meat is exactly that - my choice. I am careful about where it comes from, though, when they do eat it. The point being, from the beginning, that we Americans need to learn to eat less meat and less dairy. I don't agree. You need to get your farmers to do farming instead of soil mining, and to get your food distribution system and your food industry in order. There is no choice, you will have to do it, the longer you put it off the worse will be the consequences. I'm not sure what the conditions are where you live but, where I live, try finding anything that doesn't contain either meat or dairy at a restaurant. In regards to the lack of traditionally vegetarian societies, isn't the Hindu community primarily meat-free? No. In fact aren't there many Asian cultures that incorporate little to no meat in their diets and have so for centuries if not longer? No. I have come to understand that meat as a food, has in many cultures, been more of a matter of convience for ages. No. A goat is food that could transport itself and also remains fresh without refrigeration until you are ready to eat it. I may not understand your meaning of a traditional vegetarian society or maybe I'm just wrong. There is no traditional society, one that has stood the test of time and developed a sustainable way of living, that has been primarily vegetarian. The main test of sustainability is how they produced their food and their relationship with the soil. See Lowdermilk, for instance: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#lowdermilk You'll find societies that ate mostly vegetables and not much meat, and others that ate mostly meat and very little vegetables or grain, but none that only ate vegetables and grains and no meat. There have been such communities within traditional societies, and there still are, but on their own they would not be sustainable. "... there is no sustainable way to maintain and renew soil fertility for crop growth without raising animals too." If you raise them you either have to eat them or compete with them. Cows have a calf a year, half of them bulls, but you only need one bull for more than a hundred cows, what will you do with the rest? For instance. When properly produced, dairy products are valuable food. They're an important part of sustainable agriculture, without them farming is less sustainable. What exactly, makes dairy products more valuable than other foods? I didn't say they're more valuable than other foods, but I did say that without them farming is less sustainable. Lets say grains for instance? Would you say that without grains farming is less sustainable? I wouldn't. And there are as many problems with grain allergies as with milk allergies, or more. On the increase, in both cases, so obviously much of it has to do with how it's grown these days, and processed, as Kim said, rather than with its inherent qualities. How much wheat could be grown with the same water that is required to produce a gallon of milk? The point is that if you don't produce the gallon of milk you'll be less likely to able to produce the grain sustainably. I have read quite a bit on this subject. My findings seem to keep indicating that the yields of grains are much higher with same water inputs. And as we all know water is one of our very most valuable resources. Likewise, I have read many times that dairy cattle tend to require a considerable amount of medication and I see no indication that cattle raised for organic milk are immune to that trend. Wrong. VERY wro
Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Chris hi, keith. i have my own 'issues' with the big enviro groups. http://www.sacbee.com/news/projects/environment/index02.html Environment, Inc. http://counterpunch.org/donnelly05242005.html Michael Donnelly: May 24, 2005 Behind the Green(back) Curtain http://counterpunch.org/donnelly05102005.html Michael Donnelly: From Roadless to Clueless May 10, 2005 From Roadless to Clueless... The Great Stillborn Eco-Victory From John Stauber: "Big environmental organizations, socially responsible investment funds, and other groups perpetuate the myth that if we just write checks to them, they'll heal the environment, reform the corrupt campaign-finance system, protect our freedom of speech, and reign in corporate power. This is a dangerous falsehood, because it implies that we don't have to sweat and struggle to make democracy work. It's so much easier to write a check for twenty-five or fifty dollars than it is to integrate our concerns about critical issues into our daily lives and organize with our neighbors for democracy. "Many so-called public-interest organizations have become big businesses, multinational nonprofit corporations. The PR industry knows this and exploits it well with the type of co-optation strategies that Duchin recommends. ... "E. Bruce Harrison, one of the most effective public-relations practitioners in the business, knows that all too well. He's made a lucrative career out of helping polluting companies defeat environmental regulations while simultaneously giving the companies a "green" public image. In the industry, they call him the "Dean of Green." As a longtime opponent of the environmental movement, Harrison has developed some interesting insights into its failures. He says, "The environmental movement is dead. It really died in the last fifteen years, from success." I think he's correct. What he means is that, in the eighties and nineties, environmentalism became a big business, and organizations like the Audubon Society, the Wilderness Society, the National Wildlife Federation, the Environmental Defense Fund, and the Natural Resources Defense Council became competing multi-million-dollar bureaucracies. These organizations, Harrison says, seem much more interested in "the business of greening" than in fighting for fundamental social change. He points out, for instance, that the Environmental Defense Fund (whose executive director makes a quarter of a million dollars a year) sat down and cut a deal with McDonald's that was probably worth hundreds of millions of dollars in publicity to the fast-food giant, because it helped to "greenwash" its public image. "After years of being hammered by grass-roots environmentalists for everything from deforestation to inhumane farming practices to contributing to a throwaway culture, McDonald's finally relented on something: it did away with its styrofoam clamshell hamburger containers. But before the company did this, it entered into a partnership with the Environmental Defense Fund and gave that group credit for the change. Both sides "won" in the ensuing PR lovefest. McDonald's took one little step in response to grass-roots activists, and the Environmental Defense Fund claimed a major victory. "Another problem is that big green groups have virtually no accountability to the many thousands of individuals who provide them with money. Meanwhile, the grass-roots environmental groups are starved of the hundreds of millions of dollars that are raised every year by these massive bureaucracies. Over the past two decades, they've turned the environmental movement's grass-roots base of support into little more than a list of donors they hustle for money via direct-mail appeals and telemarketing. It's getting even worse, because now corporations are directly funding groups like the Audubon Society, the Wilderness Society, and the National Wildlife Federation. Corporate executives now sit on the boards of some of these groups. PR executive Leslie Dach, for instance, of the rabidly anti-environmental Edelman PR firm, is on the Audubon Society's board of directors. Meanwhile, his PR firm has helped lead the "wise use" assault on environmental regulation."... -- WAR ON TRUTH The Secret Battle for the American Mind An Interview with John Stauber http://www.whale.to/m/stauber.html He's right, as usual, but as I said, you can't paint it with such a broad brush, you have to take it case-by-case. but i have been quite impressed with one group as i learn more about them. that would be 'the nature conservancy'. (although, i should point out there was some sort of unsavory business a few years back wherein certain members of their board profited in some way from a particular land set-aside; but i gather they instituted more rigorous auditing/oversight procedures as a result). i bring this up because i wondered, have there been any critiques of this group? I'm glad you like them
Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?
Hi Ryan Keith wrote: And there are people who demand to know: "What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???", which usually turns out to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored. Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list if it weren't for the political discussion. I live in the South Dakota, USA. Most people here are Red state type of people who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending he/she cares. I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially love that I can read what people from around the world think, especially about America...I agree with most of them. I am also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to this information otherwise. This list has changed my world view for the better. Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the contributers. Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, and you're most welcome. Best wishes Keith Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Hakan Falk a écrit : Frantz, I have looked at several lists and if you look at the one you pointed to, it is some lack of definitions. If you look at from country and citizenship as an example. It is Indian sites that says the they had 43 victims, the English at 67 seems to be quite common. I gave up and do not understand why it would be so difficult with one list on origin and get it accurate. The best number I can get for Americans in WTC, is 1,700+ and this is probably quite accurate and common. For the rest, it is large variations. In Spain the number of Spanish is much higher and I know of two families who lost a member in WTC and they are not even mentioned on your list. It is often said that the victims represented 115 countries and your list with 36, is the lowest I have seen. It is a mess and I cannot understand why. Hakan, a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries. So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US. So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count them as US and the french gov as french citizens. frantz, world citizen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Frantz, I have looked at several lists and if you look at the one you pointed to, it is some lack of definitions. If you look at from country and citizenship as an example. It is Indian sites that says the they had 43 victims, the English at 67 seems to be quite common. I gave up and do not understand why it would be so difficult with one list on origin and get it accurate. The best number I can get for Americans in WTC, is 1,700+ and this is probably quite accurate and common. For the rest, it is large variations. In Spain the number of Spanish is much higher and I know of two families who lost a member in WTC and they are not even mentioned on your list. It is often said that the victims represented 115 countries and your list with 36, is the lowest I have seen. It is a mess and I cannot understand why. Hakan At 08:42 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: Hakan Falk a écrit : (...) WTC was the home for many foreign organizations and it was many citizens from other countries in the building. How many of the victims were actually real AMERICANS, at least before they died? http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm Frantz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
While I understand it's impossible to know what would have happened "what if", I do allow myself to ponder what the course of events may have been if, GWB had chosen to continue what Clinton was doing in regards to terrorist activities, instead of reversing course. When Clinton walked out of the white house the USA wasn't dealing with those terrorists supporting Osomah Binladin. When the sun rose over NYC on 9/11/2001 the USA under GWB's leadership was dealing with those terrorists supporting Osomah. Doug - Original Message - From: "Jerry Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid : NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost : their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!! : : IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist : would have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no they would have kept : on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity. : : If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting : blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it : and I know it. : : Jerry Turner : : - Original Message - : From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> : To: : Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM : Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid : : : See also: : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm : Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count : : : : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm : : It's imperialism, stupid : : By Noam Chomsky : : 07/05/05 "ICH" - - IN his June 28 speech, President Bush asserted : that the invasion of Iraq was undertaken as part of "a global war : against terror" that the United States is waging. In reality, as : anticipated, the invasion increased the threat of terror, perhaps : significantly. : : Half-truths, misinformation and hidden agendas have characterised : official pronouncements about US war motives in Iraq from the very : beginning. The recent revelations about the rush to war in Iraq stand : out all the more starkly amid the chaos that ravages the country and : threatens the region and indeed the world. : : In 2002 the US and United Kingdom proclaimed the right to invade Iraq : because it was developing weapons of mass destruction. That was the : "single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister : Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush : received congressional authorisation to resort to force. : : The answer to the "single question" was given shortly after the : invasion, and reluctantly conceded: The WMD didn't exist. Scarcely : missing a beat, the government and media doctrinal system concocted : new pretexts and justifications for going to war. : : "Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw : aggression is what took place in Iraq," national security and : intelligence analyst John Prados concluded after his careful, : extensive review of the documentary record in his 2004 book : "Hoodwinked." : : Prados describes the Bush "scheme to convince America and the world : that war with Iraq was necessary and urgent" as "a case study in : government dishonesty ... that required patently untrue public : statements and egregious manipulation of intelligence." The Downing : Street memo, published on May 1 in The Sunday Times of London, along : with other newly available confidential documents, have deepened the : record of deceit. : : The memo came from a meeting of Blair's war cabinet on July 23, 2002, : in which Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence, : made the now-notorious assertion that "the intelligence and facts : were being fixed around the policy" of going to war in Iraq. : : The memo also quotes British Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon as saying : that "the US had already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure : on the regime." : : British journalist Michael Smith, who broke the story of the memo, : has elaborated on its context and contents in subsequent articles. : The "spikes of activity" apparently included a coalition air campaign : meant to provoke Iraq into some act that could be portrayed as what : the memo calls a "casus belli." : : Warplanes began bombing in southern Iraq in May 2002 - 10 tons that : month, according to British government figures. A special "spike" : started in late August (for a September total of 54.6 tons). : : "In other words, Bush and Blair began their war not in March 2003, as : everyone believed, but at the end of August 2002, six weeks before : Congress approved military action against Iraq," Smith wrote. : : The bombing was presented as defensive action to protect coalition : planes in the no-fly zone. Iraq protested to the United Nations but : didn't fall into the trap of retaliating. For US-UK planners, : invading Iraq was a far higher priority than the "war on terror." : That much is revealed by the repor