Re: [Biofuel] mildly OT, Repower mid-80 ford pu
Chip, Can be done, the original gear box and 4X4 transfer box unit in place. The MB is expensive here new fan to flywheel from MB and for parts. However the Musso (Sang Yang) has all but the same engine and is all but as reliable. Needs the injector pipes held better in braces to stop the lines cracking, the oil cooler needs to be replaced or set as an addition to the coolant system with maybe a heat exchanger. You also have the power steering pump to contend with if the ford has the lower ram system and not the unit construction box. Some of the 5 cylinder MB's I have here and work on are also fitted with serpentine belts, makes for changing alternators etc a bit more complex. You will also need to check if your MB has the little devious vac pump on the front left of the engine gear driven. You will need this for the Vac brakes on the Ford. The problem with the set up is no vac no stopping/shutting the engine off. Might be good to fit an accessory pull cord to the inner side of the injector pump for emergency shutdowns. There are many configurations of the 5 MB engine from the vertical to inclined, cast alloy sump to pressed metal. Many such differences were very apparent in Israel many years ago in the Taxis. Auto transmissions stay engaged in changing up or down they slowly dump oil from one set of clutches and increase the oil to next. As can be seen there is a point where the Auto is in two gears at one time thus causing heat and drag. Sudden dumping and instant filling from one set of clutches to the next would tend to give whip-lash to not only the drive train but also the driver and passengers. Thus the auto is not the best in many instances. This being said I like the 400 in my Chev 4X4 as it needs no quick work on gear linkages in off road use or towing very heavy loads. The MB later autos only went into low/1st if the driver slammed the pedal to the floor from standing start, otherwise the cars started motion in 2nd gear if the driver was gentle on take off. Because of this the transmissions tended to be as you say The mercedes automatic wasn't ever really a very good transmission, kinda soft, and this one is quite old. Doug Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sounds like a great idea to me. I bet you'd loose some top end power on the highway, but gain some low end torque, and probably get 50% better mileage too. I've heard of someone doing this in a toyota pickup (wonder how they handled the weight of a 300TD in that?), and said it had much more power than the toyota diesel (2.4 liter turbo), and much quieter as well. You'd use the same transmission as in there now, or put the 4wd transfer case on the back of the 4speed auto from the Merc? The mercedes automatic wasn't ever really a very good transmission, kinda soft, and this one is quite old. The ford manual is a granny gear 1st 4speed, so I'd rather keep it. This is/will remain a 'work truck'. I sure would like to keep the ford xmission. It seems, that the OM617 turbo diesel is just about the most ubiquitous engine of that type in the US. They are all over the place, and can be had for reasonably little money. I'm a little suprised there isn't more info about swapping this engine around. thanx again. Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words. It is after all an International list and the majority of us have other native languages than English. Until you attacked my for my English, I found a very large understanding for this, by the other list members. Hakan At 00:28 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, The weakening of the dollar is not a result of any concerted foreign effort. The dollar is amazingly strong, considering that US breaks all fundamentals. It is probably the opposite, it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I would not surprised to hear such things from children mom/dad said we could do it and maybe I am not that surprised to hear it from US. It is however wrong to try to find any to blame other then US itself. I do not see that US is under
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Hello Mike Keith, You wrote: He means the other superpower, the Social Forum in Porto Alegre for example, and I'm sure the policy changes have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments. It's hard to misunderstand his meaning - especially since he actually uses the term second superpower. Not in your quote of him, and it wasn't obvious. Nowhere in your post did you mention the second superpower. You'd have to know Chomsky at least a bit to divine from your quote that he's talking about the global grass-roots movement against corporate globalisation, not one that's trying to influence foreign governments to put financial pressure on Washington. You gave no hint of it. Of course there are links between the two issues but they're not the same, and they're not interchangeable. I don't have that book but I recognised part of your quote because Chomsky recycles a lot of what he writes, so I was able to find it elsewhere and restore the missing context. I'm glad I got you to amplify it a bit, it needed it. It still doesn't hold any water though. I wrote: ...and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of 'Hegemony or Survival'. What I'm saying is that events like the Social Forum What you said is foreign policy decisions around the world, that means government, you didn't mention the Social Forum and it wasn't implicit. On the other hand what the Social Forum etc actually is doing might be relevant, but you don't mention that. might actually effect public policy outside (and perhaps inside) the U.S.. You said: When he says policy changes, I read it to mean within the United States. I wasn't trying to interpret his quote I read it to mean... but rather, speculate and widen the scope where Chomsky's observation might also be true. It doesn't widen the scope of it, it transfers it to a different context. You said this: When he says policy changes, I read it to mean within the United States. However, I think that a popular movement to identify the U.S. government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species, is coalescing in foreign policy decisions around the world. The result is an indication of US economic isolation with hopes of slowing military buildup and globalization. A popular movement to identify the U.S. government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species is not the same as a global grass-roots movement directed against corporation globalisation, which is what Chomsky is talking about. It can't be stretched to include this: I also think it's possible that the weakening of the U.S. Dollar is the result of a concerted effort by foreign entities (governments and NGO's) It breaks. What concerted effort? They may have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments. as you say. However, to what extent is that true? Does that mean that it doesn't effect governments to any meaningful degree? If so, I think I would disagree with your assessment. In fact, there are times when I cannot distinguish between the motives of the World Bank/IMF/WTO and the US government or other governments. More importantly, a successful campaign against one would certainly effect the other. How would a global grass-roots movement campaigning to weaken the US dollar result in the IMF dropping its vicious neo-liberal policies, or force the World Bank to stop financing big dams and fossil-fuels projects, or achieve debt relief and end the dumping of subsidised farm surpluses on 3rd World markets? That would be an improbably Machiavellian way for a grass-roots movement to go about achieving those goals (those are their goal;s). How would it stop Bechtel selling your water supply to Coca-Cola, or stop an Indian peasant farmer's future being sold out to Monsanto? Are you aware of what Cancun and Porto Alegre et al have achieved by way of forcing policy? I don't think it included any concerted effort to weaken the US dollar. Confusing the aims of the Social Forum movement risks bluntening its effectiveness. The mainstream media always do that - the anti-globalisation protesters, they call them, but they're not anti-globalisation at all, nobody's that dumb, especially when they're a part of globalisation, they help to propel it. Although quantifying that effect is debatable, I feel it is worth mentioning. A concerted effort should at least be identifiable. Finally, I offer this as a contribution to the discussion. I'm not an expert and if I were asked for an expert opinion, I would defer most economic and foreign policy matters to you. That's a load of crap, with all due respect. If that happened I'd close the list down and nobody would bother to cry, least of all me. There aren't any experts here, that's a dirty word where I come from: http://www.prwatch.org/books/experts.html Trust Us, We're Experts If (as you say)
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words. It is after all an International list and the majority of us have other native languages than English. Until you attacked my for my English, I found a very large understanding for this, by the other list members. Hakan At 00:28 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
WHICH MIKE? Henceforth I'm signing my posts as Weaver. ARGGH. -Weaver Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, You wrote: He means the other superpower, the Social Forum in Porto Alegre for example, and I'm sure the policy changes have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments. It's hard to misunderstand his meaning - especially since he actually uses the term second superpower. Not in your quote of him, and it wasn't obvious. Nowhere in your post did you mention the second superpower. You'd have to know Chomsky at least a bit to divine from your quote that he's talking about the global grass-roots movement against corporate globalisation, not one that's trying to influence foreign governments to put financial pressure on Washington. You gave no hint of it. Of course there are links between the two issues but they're not the same, and they're not interchangeable. I don't have that book but I recognised part of your quote because Chomsky recycles a lot of what he writes, so I was able to find it elsewhere and restore the missing context. I'm glad I got you to amplify it a bit, it needed it. It still doesn't hold any water though. I wrote: ...and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of 'Hegemony or Survival'. What I'm saying is that events like the Social Forum What you said is foreign policy decisions around the world, that means government, you didn't mention the Social Forum and it wasn't implicit. On the other hand what the Social Forum etc actually is doing might be relevant, but you don't mention that. might actually effect public policy outside (and perhaps inside) the U.S.. You said: When he says policy changes, I read it to mean within the United States. I wasn't trying to interpret his quote I read it to mean... but rather, speculate and widen the scope where Chomsky's observation might also be true. It doesn't widen the scope of it, it transfers it to a different context. You said this: When he says policy changes, I read it to mean within the United States. However, I think that a popular movement to identify the U.S. government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species, is coalescing in foreign policy decisions around the world. The result is an indication of US economic isolation with hopes of slowing military buildup and globalization. A popular movement to identify the U.S. government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species is not the same as a global grass-roots movement directed against corporation globalisation, which is what Chomsky is talking about. It can't be stretched to include this: I also think it's possible that the weakening of the U.S. Dollar is the result of a concerted effort by foreign entities (governments and NGO's) It breaks. What concerted effort? They may have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments. as you say. However, to what extent is that true? Does that mean that it doesn't effect governments to any meaningful degree? If so, I think I would disagree with your assessment. In fact, there are times when I cannot distinguish between the motives of the World Bank/IMF/WTO and the US government or other governments. More importantly, a successful campaign against one would certainly effect the other. How would a global grass-roots movement campaigning to weaken the US dollar result in the IMF dropping its vicious neo-liberal policies, or force the World Bank to stop financing big dams and fossil-fuels projects, or achieve debt relief and end the dumping of subsidised farm surpluses on 3rd World markets? That would be an improbably Machiavellian way for a grass-roots movement to go about achieving those goals (those are their goal;s). How would it stop Bechtel selling your water supply to Coca-Cola, or stop an Indian peasant farmer's future being sold out to Monsanto? Are you aware of what Cancun and Porto Alegre et al have achieved by way of forcing policy? I don't think it included any concerted effort to weaken the US dollar. Confusing the aims of the Social Forum movement risks bluntening its effectiveness. The mainstream media always do that - the anti-globalisation protesters, they call them, but they're not anti-globalisation at all, nobody's that dumb, especially when they're a part of globalisation, they help to propel it. Although quantifying that effect is debatable, I feel it is worth mentioning. A concerted effort should at least be identifiable. Finally, I offer this as a contribution to the discussion. I'm not an expert and if I were asked for an expert opinion, I would defer most economic and foreign policy matters to you. That's a load of crap, with all due respect. If that happened I'd close the list down and nobody
[Biofuel] PLEASE HELP
I would like to encourage each and everyone of you to seriously consider the charity described below. Now that the holiday season has passed, please look into your heart to help those in need. Enron executives in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level. More tragic, they will be deprived of it as a result of the bankruptcy and current SEC investigation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month*, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an Enron executive remain economically viable during his time of need. Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to an Enron exec it could mean the difference between vacationing in Fiji and owning it. It will enable him or her to trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari without jeopardizing those jealously guarded retirement accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans. To you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note, or a second mortgage payment. Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the exec you sponsor. Detailed information about his/ her stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Imagine the joy as you watch your executive's portfolio grow exponentially--and that's just his disclosed assets! Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the exec (unsigned) - for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00. Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other people's suffering. Your Enron exec will be told that he/she has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the exec won't know your name, he or she will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. And there will be those. As poor Mrs. Ley so sincerely reported, her husband somehow managed to misplace over $100 million that he received in just the last 2 years. Stephen King couldn't script a scenario more frightening. I'd write more, but I'm having trouble seeing through my tears. Thank you for your expression of love. *Per special regulation passed in closed session this past year, contributions are tax-deductible only to recipients. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Hakan, Weaver and Redler are the same person. He does this to confuse the point and disorient us all!!You want proof? Have you ever seen them together in the same room?fred On 6/1/06, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike W,If you look at my post, it was an answer toMichael Redler's post, so do not worry. We areprobably all confused by all the Mikes and itmight be good if you sign your posts withWeaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am oldexcept I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lotwith this, if he understand Swedish. LOLIf you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted tosay I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig.I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes.HakanAt 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote:Hakan,I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up.I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike theElder.I didn't say any of this.Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed withyou that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency.I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below:-Mike WeaverYou wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value ofthe dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower.So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defendthemselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value ofcurrencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below isan attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules.I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someonewithout using the word blame, or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensibleness sinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy:http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame )I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules.However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive andantagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attackThat one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has sobroadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or notyou can see it?My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiablepopular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both insideand outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions incountries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) andexpress dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm noteven asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might findit helpful to your own credibility.Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
The Real Mike, Sorry, I got two messages from you, one personal and one through the list. I appreciated you message, but sent the same answer to both you and the list. It was not until afterwards, that I saw the difference and that you in the personal one try a Swedish sentence, also much appreciated because of the effort that must have gone into it. To try to construct a sentence in an unfamiliar language is a lot of work and it is easy to get it wrong. In Swedish we would say Heder åt dig, which is in translation Honor to you. To make my answer to the list understandable. I have to explain to the list that I tried to explain what you said in Swedish, which was JAG er gammal utom JAG rengör! and suggest the Swedish text for what you probably wanted to say. Hakan At 14:10 01/06/2006, you wrote: Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
I'm taller and have much better hair than Redler Fred Finch wrote: Hakan, Weaver and Redler are the same person. He does this to confuse the point and disorient us all!! You want proof? Have you ever seen them together in the same room? fred On 6/1/06, *Hakan Falk* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.0/353 - Release Date: 5/31/2006
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
That's my fault - I sent two messages - I was worried you were mad at me. -Weaver Hakan Falk wrote: The Real Mike, Sorry, I got two messages from you, one personal and one through the list. I appreciated you message, but sent the same answer to both you and the list. It was not until afterwards, that I saw the difference and that you in the personal one try a Swedish sentence, also much appreciated because of the effort that must have gone into it. To try to construct a sentence in an unfamiliar language is a lot of work and it is easy to get it wrong. In Swedish we would say Heder åt dig, which is in translation Honor to you. To make my answer to the list understandable. I have to explain to the list that I tried to explain what you said in Swedish, which was JAG er gammal utom JAG rengör! and suggest the Swedish text for what you probably wanted to say. Hakan At 14:10 01/06/2006, you wrote: Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Fred, If it is the same person, he is going through a lot of efforts to hide it, even using two different computers, with different software and different locations, if you read the message headers. It is not likely that they are in the same room, so maybe you are right. If he go trough all of this to be able to have dual personalties, he deserves it. LOL Hakan At 14:38 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, Weaver and Redler are the same person. He does this to confuse the point and disorient us all!! You want proof? Have you ever seen them together in the same room? fred On 6/1/06, Hakan Falk mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://ww w.m-w.com/dictionary/blame http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Joe Street wrote: Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? yes, too much (or too little) potassium and your dead. J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE HELP
LOL, this is great!On Jun 1, 2006, at 4:26 AM, Mike Weaver wrote:I would like to encourage each and everyone of you to seriously consider the charity described below. Now that the holiday season has passed, please look into your heart to help those in need. Enron executives in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level. More tragic, they will be deprived of it as a result of the bankruptcy and current SEC investigation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month*, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an Enron executive remain economically viable during his time of need. Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to an Enron exec it could mean the difference between vacationing in Fiji and owning it. It will enable him or her to trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari without jeopardizing those jealously guarded "retirement" accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans. To you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note, or a second mortgage payment. Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the exec you sponsor. Detailed information about his/ her stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Imagine the joy as you watch your executive's portfolio grow exponentially--and that's just his disclosed assets! Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the exec (unsigned) - for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00. Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other people's suffering. Your Enron exec will be told that he/she has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the exec won't know your name, he or she will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. And there will be those. As poor Mrs. Ley so sincerely reported, her husband somehow managed to misplace over $100 million that he received in just the last 2 years. Stephen King couldn't script a scenario more frightening. I'd write more, but I'm having trouble seeing through my tears. Thank you for your _expression_ of love. *Per special regulation passed in closed session this past year, contributions are tax-deductible only to recipients. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Hakan, He's good...Really good!!fredOn 6/1/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...fair enough.Mike R Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike W,If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOLWhat you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOLIf you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOLBest wishes.HakanAt 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote:Hakan,I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike theElder.I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers.I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency.I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer.I did not write this below:-Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value ofthe dollar high, when it according to all financial rules andfundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defendthemselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value ofcurrencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below isan attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules.I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someonewithout using the word blame, or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensibleness sinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy:http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame )I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules.However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive andantagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack.You also said: I do not see that US is under any attackThat one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has sobroadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy ofattack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or notyou can see it?My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both insideand outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions incountries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) andexpress dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm noteven asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might findit helpful to your own credibility.Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric.
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE HELP
I can't believe all the selfish things I've been spending money on. My mortgage, food for my family, health insurance... Now that I know there is such need in the world, I will strongly reconsider priorities. The thought of the joy I can bring to Ken Lay when he finds out he can not only bilk thousands of people of their retirement savings and write a disastrous energy policy for an entire major world power, but still buy a medium sized island (say, Maui) to retire on, will be priceless to me. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to encourage each and everyone of you to seriously consider the charity described below. Now that the holiday season has passed, please look into your heart to help those in need. Enron executives in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level. More tragic, they will be deprived of it as a result of the bankruptcy and current SEC investigation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month*, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an Enron executive remain economically viable during his time of need. Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to an Enron exec it could mean the difference between vacationing in Fiji and owning it. It will enable him or her to trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari without jeopardizing those jealously guarded retirement accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans. To you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note, or a second mortgage payment. Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the exec you sponsor. Detailed information about his/ her stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Imagine the joy as you watch your executive's portfolio grow exponentially--and that's just his disclosed assets! Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the exec (unsigned) - for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00. Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other people's suffering. Your Enron exec will be told that he/she has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the exec won't know your name, he or she will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. And there will be those. As poor Mrs. Ley so sincerely reported, her husband somehow managed to misplace over $100 million that he received in just the last 2 years. Stephen King couldn't script a scenario more frightening. I'd write more, but I'm having trouble seeing through my tears. Thank you for your expression of love. *Per special regulation passed in closed session this past year, contributions are tax-deductible only to recipients. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Zionist Democrats, the DLC
I knew the DLC was bad, but it is much worse than I had thought. Wow! Peace, D. Mindock http://www.counterpunch.org/carmichael05302006.html The DLC and Israel Zionist Democrats By MICHAEL CARMICHAEL Last week the newly elected Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, visited Washington to meet with George Bush in order to endorse America's plan to attack Iran in his address to Congress. In his strident appeal to Congress, Olmert sought nothing less than to incite war between America and Iran. Prior to his stroke, Ariel Sharon was engaged in fomenting wars between America and Iraq, and he had promised his circle of admirers that he would move Iran into the cross hairs of America at the first opportunity. Olmert is Sharon's political heir, and he has inherited a legacy of incitement and fomentation of wars in the Middle East between America and Islamic nations that are militarily weak and rich in oil. To coincide with Olmert's visit, the Democratic Leadership Council published a statement celebrating "Zionism" and condemning Islam. If their publication had not come from a man who purports to be a leader of the political opposition to the deeply unpopular right-wing Republican regime one might be inclined to surmise that it had been issued by the so-called Israel Lobby. In what was meant to be a moving personal account of his fifth trip to Israel, Al From, the founding father and CEO of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), defined Zionism as, "a good idea filled with hope." On his journey, Mr. From visited the summit of Mount Hadar where he experienced a moving vision of Israeli 'hope' locked in conflict with Palestinian 'anger.' Inspired by this romanticized contrast of a black and white rendering of good versus evil, Mr. From witnessed what he described as the, "booms of Palestinian rockets and the Israeli retaliation." From his lofty summit, Mr. From failed to see the mounds of corpses mounting upwards in Israel and Palestine, where four Palestinians are killed for every one Israeli. Mr. From's account is nothing more nor less than a paean to the Zionist faith that he sees as the force driving the engine of politics and shaping the culture of Israel. Nowhere does Mr. From pretend to deliver a balanced or objective analysis of the state of Israel or its lengthy and violent conflict with the Palestinian people. Quite the contrary, his account is dripping with disdain for Palestine and its people whom he describes as motivated by anger, dispirited and habitually driven to horrific acts of terror and suicide bombing. Mr. From's reverie on his faith in Zionism occurs against a stark backdrop. The organization that Mr. From leads, the DLC, is clearly on the wane, and the current issue of their magazine carries an appeal for an "entry level Development Assistant" to help them raise much needed funds. That said, to borrow a phrase from cricket, the DLC did have one long and grotesque inning characterized by the consistent loss of elections by its major patron: the Democratic Party which kept following Mr. From's advice to move relentlessly to the right to conform to the demands of his blatantly Zionist agenda: security for Israel as a means of providing security for America or conversely security for America predicated on security for Israel. For a decade and a half, the DLC dominated the Democratic Party more thoroughly than any pressure group had ever controlled any political party in American history. After ten years of failure to regain the majority in Congress and abject failures in the two previous presidential elections, Governor Howard Dean led a grassroots movement of party activists to reclaim the levers of power for traditional Democratic policies: constitutional democracy, the open society, multilateralism, social welfare, a national health service, national security and homeland security realized through diplomacy rather than by military confrontation and many more substantive and socially progressive policies besides. While Governor Dean faced a broad field of DLC-backed opponents parroting Mr. From's mantras redolent of neoconservative cant, each one crumbled like a rag doll before him. Today, Governor Dean is leading a through-going reorganization of the Democratic Party that relies on the energy provided by grassroots activists. At the same time, Governor Dean has de-emphasized the right-leaning consultancies and pressure groups preferred by the DLC. In order to succeed with his plan for the reform of the Democratic Party, Governor Dean faces the stalwart opposition of Mr. From and his neoconservative cronies at the DLC and many powerful Democratic office holders as well, who are still under their sway. These neoconservative Democrats include: Governor Tom Vilsack, Senator Evan Bayh, Senator Joe Biden and Senator Hillary Clinton. These Democrats are committed to the DLC vision of America's future as defined by Mr. From, most
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE HELP
Oh, that is just tragic. I'm not only going to withdraw my life savings, I'm also going to go take a cash advance on my credit cards so that I can make the most generous donation I am capable of asap -- hell, it's only 23% interest for cash advances. While I'm at it, I should also donate my time. Mike, do you know if the Enron execs need a seasoned volunteer ass wiper? -John On Jun 1, 2006, at 7:26 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: I would like to encourage each and everyone of you to seriously consider the charity described below. Now that the holiday season has passed, please look into your heart to help those in need. Enron executives in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level. More tragic, they will be deprived of it as a result of the bankruptcy and current SEC investigation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month*, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an Enron executive remain economically viable during his time of need. Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to an Enron exec it could mean the difference between vacationing in Fiji and owning it. It will enable him or her to trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari without jeopardizing those jealously guarded retirement accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans. To you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note, or a second mortgage payment. Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the exec you sponsor. Detailed information about his/ her stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Imagine the joy as you watch your executive's portfolio grow exponentially--and that's just his disclosed assets! Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the exec (unsigned) - for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00. Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other people's suffering. Your Enron exec will be told that he/she has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the exec won't know your name, he or she will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. And there will be those. As poor Mrs. Ley so sincerely reported, her husband somehow managed to misplace over $100 million that he received in just the last 2 years. Stephen King couldn't script a scenario more frightening. I'd write more, but I'm having trouble seeing through my tears. Thank you for your expression of love. *Per special regulation passed in closed session this past year, contributions are tax-deductible only to recipients. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
...fair enough.Mike RHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike W,If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with "Weaver" or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with "The Real Mike". LOLWhat you are saying in Swedish is "I am old except I am cleaning". Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOLIf you wanted to say "I am old but clean" it is "Jag är gammal men ren". Probably you wanted to say "I am old but innocent" which is "Jag är gammal men oskyldig".I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOLBest wishes.HakanAt 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote:Hakan,I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike theElder.I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers.I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed withyou that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency.I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer.I did not write this below:-Mike WeaverYou wrote: "...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value ofthe dollar high, when it according to all financial rules andfundamentals should be much lower."So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defendthemselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value ofcurrencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan?You said: "I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below isan attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules."I find it amazing too - since I didn't "blame" other countries for anything.I find it amazing that (according to you) I can "blame" someonewithout using the word blame, or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failureI didn't say any related words like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensiblenesssinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy:http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame )I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking "all the rules".However, I did say "White House policy is both self destructive andantagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack."You also said: "I do not see that US is under any attack"That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has sobroadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy ofattack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or notyou can "see" it?My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiablepopular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both insideand outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions incountries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-mindedpersonal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) andexpress dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm noteven asking for respect (although it would be nice).Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might findit helpful to your own credibility.Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words. It is after all
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
WHICH MIKE? Mike R., the one I replied to. Okay, I'll put it on top next time, sorry. Henceforth I'm signing my posts as Weaver. ARGGH. -Weaver You don't mind hello Weaver? Or is that ARGGH-Weaver? :-) But I don't think of you as Weaver, I think of you as Mike. Well, whatever, I shall strive to mend mine evil ways. Keith Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Hakan,"I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner."I thought your message was very clearly written. I also think your English is excellent. I fully understoodyour child analogyand my list of words was used to indicate that I did not "blame" anyone for anything and it would have been directed at anyone, irrespective of whether their first language was English.Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Mike,I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral.I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also.National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability.If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words.It is after all an International list and the majority of us have other native languages than English. Until you attacked my for my English, I found a very large understanding for this, by the other list members.HakanAt 00:28 01/06/2006, you wrote:Hakan,You wrote: "...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower."So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan?You said: "I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules."I find it amazing too - since I didn't "blame" other countries for anything.I find it amazing that (according to you) I can "blame" someone without using the word blame, or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failureI didn't say any related words like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensiblenesssinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame )I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking "all the rules". However, I did say "White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack."You also said: "I do not see that US is under any attack"That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can "see" it?My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice).Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility.MikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Mike,The weakening of the dollar is not a result of any concerted foreigneffort. The dollar is amazingly strong, considering that US breaksall fundamentals. It is probably the opposite, it is a concertedeffort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it accordingto all financial rules and fundamentals
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Also what low sodium table salt is made of I believe. On 6/1/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Emission Factors for Bio-diesel vs. Diesel
Do you know where I could find more information about emission reductions from soy and rapeseeds? I know that the overall reduction (eg., life cycle assessments) is close to nothing if not greater than regular diesel. Sarath ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Emission Factors for Bio-diesel vs. Diesel
Check with the NBB. Be careful in your analysis not to just look at CO CO2 and NOx emissions. Biodiesel can produce aldehydes when combustion processes are not right. Nobody ever talks about this. Joe Sarath G wrote: Do you know where I could find more information about emission reductions from soy and rapeseeds? I know that the overall reduction (eg., life cycle assessments) is close to nothing if not greater than regular diesel. Sarath ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Hi Joe I was the bad guy here a few years ago after I reported murdering some red worms that way. :-( But lots of things will kill worms if you feed it to them in the wrong way. Try making a worm box/bin on the ground, say 2ft square (60cm), with the bare soil as the floor. Give it a sloping lid so the rain runs off (and runs away from the bin). Start off with a couple of thousand worms (1kg) or so in some sort of suitable bedding (see Compost Vermicomposting at JtF). Put the bedding on the soil, 3-4 deep (8-10cm). Water the soil floor first and make sure the bedding is wet enough. Add whatever, kitchen wastes, garden wastes and so on, livestock manure. Mixed is better. Add about 1kg a day at first, you can increase it later (up to a point) when there are more worms. The worms have a strong effect on the surrounding microlife in the wastes, while the soil beneath and its soil life act as a buffer. If you put another bin right next to the worm bin and added the same bedding and the same wastes day by day but without any worms, it takes a different course (different smell too). Decaying wastes from the wormless bin can be toxic to worms, though the same wastes in the wormbin don't harm them. A wormbin that's not on a soil base is less forgiving, I think you could add some glyc cocktail to the feed in the wormbin this way - same as with compost, a little at a time along with other mixed stuff. I'd like to know whether adding diluted crude glycerine separated from the cocktail to wormfeed this way might have similar effects to those Tom's been getting with thermophilic compost, very interesting. I'm not set up for that right now, I'll have to breed up some extra worms first. Best Keith Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE HELP
Weaver I thought this was the best post I have seen. I LMAO - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:26 AM Subject: [Biofuel] PLEASE HELP I would like to encourage each and everyone of you to seriously consider the charity described below.Now that the holiday season has passed, please look into your heart to help those in need.Enron executives in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level.More tragic, they will be deprived of it as a result of the bankruptcy and current SEC investigation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month*, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an Enron executive remain economically viable during his time of need.Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to an Enron exec it could mean the difference between vacationing in Fiji and owning it. It will enable him or her to trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari without jeopardizing those jealously guarded "retirement" accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans. To you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note, or a second mortgage payment.Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the exec you sponsor. Detailed information about his/ her stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Imagine the joy as you watch your executive's portfolio grow exponentially--and that's just his disclosed assets!Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the exec (unsigned) - for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00. Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other people's suffering.Your Enron exec will be told that he/she has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the exec won't know your name, he or she will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. And there will be those. As poor Mrs. Ley so sincerely reported, her husband somehow managed to misplace over $100 million that he received in just the last 2 years. Stephen King couldn't script a scenario more frightening.I'd write more, but I'm having trouble seeing through my tears. Thank you for your _expression_ of love.*Per special regulation passed in closed session this past year, contributions are tax-deductible only to recipients.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. And no doubt the ratio of roughage to glyc cocktail certainly is paramount. But how many people hear the word compost, dump tonnage into a pile, and expect miracles without maintenance or moderation? This is largely what I believe biodieselers do..., just dump and make another batch and dump again, until they have a stew pit that isn't working. As for methanol, you just won't find me a very big proponent of tossing something that can contribute to surface and ground water contamination. I am rather fond of the belief of greens going the extra mile rather when feasible/achievable. Pour-and-go biodiesel? Yes. Dump-and-go glycerol cocktail? Strong reservations and with fair reason. Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons,
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hello again Todd Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. Pig iron will degrade - rust - but I'm not sure it will biodegrade and it sure won't compost. However iron is an essential micronutrient required for plant growth. Exxon Valdez excretions can be bioremediated I suppose, I don't know if it involves anything akin to composting but I doubt it, and if it did I wouldn't use the compost. It's not a good way of dealing with heavy metals either, one of the reasons for avoiding sewage sludge, even if you compost it, let alone applying it direct. No such problems with the glyc cocktail however, your comparisons aren't very apt. And no doubt the ratio of roughage to glyc cocktail certainly is paramount. The other ratios remain important too, none of them is paramount. But how many people hear the word compost, dump tonnage into a pile, and expect miracles without maintenance or moderation? This is largely what I believe biodieselers do..., just dump and make another batch and dump again, until they have a stew pit that isn't working. No doubt there are biodieselers who do that. There are biodieselers who don't wash their fuel because they're too lazy or they can't make it properly. Maybe they're the same folks, I'm not very interested in them. There are a lot of biodieselers here who do know how to make compost. People visiting the JtF website looking for information on composting the glycerine by-product can find everything they need to know to do it properly, if they're willing to take the trouble to learn. If not, that's their problem. Same with making good biodiesel. Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. Not practical. There are as many ways of making compost as there are composters, no two compost piles are the same. The variations are too wide to make anything but general recommendations. Tom Kelly makes thermophilic compost, Robert Luis Rabello makes mesophilic compost, some people turn it, others don't, some people use manure, others don't, some people use shredders, others don't, some paople layer it, others don't, it can take three weeks to finish or it can take a year. All those ways can produce good results, from an infinite variety of materials and mixes, in all sorts of climates. There are more than 25,000 different types of micro-organisms involved in the process, with many local variations, and most of them haven't even been identified yet. If you know how to make compost it's easy to compost the glycerine cocktail. I don't think you read what it says here: Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost Why don't you have a look? It links you to whatever else you need to know. As for methanol, you just won't find me a very big proponent of tossing something that can contribute to surface and ground water contamination. Well, Todd, again it seems you didn't read it. Go and read it: More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth Please don't ignore things people tell you and reply as if they didn't say them. Anyway, how could adding some excess methanol in the glycerine cocktail to a compost pile have an effect on surface and groundwater, whether it contaminates it or not? If it survives the compost pile and reaches the water intact then it sure wasn't a compost pile. I am rather fond of the belief of greens going the extra mile rather when feasible/achievable. Or anyone sensible, no need to paint them green. Pour-and-go biodiesel? Yes. Dump-and-go glycerol cocktail? Strong reservations and with fair reason. That's not what anyone's been talking about, only you. If you want to insist that only bad ways of doing it prevail and there aren't good ways of doing it when there are, then I wonder why you'd want to do that. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade
[Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? There is a big sign inside our local biodiesel coop that says B20 is only for suckers or something to that effect. I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). This is from my experience with how the engines run on B20 or B100 vs D100 -- if it doesn't have at least 20% biodiesel I get more black smoke and louder engine noise, plus the fumes bother me. On 6/1/06, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel stinks - was Re: Venezuelan president Chavez
The guys in our boiler plant love that diesel smell...takes them back to their Navy days, I reckon...Full steam ahead! WD-40 takes me back to childhood, working on stuff with my Grandfather. I think WD40 should be made into a cologne! Eau de wd-forty? http://tinyurl.com/l9kyr On 5/30/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maybe something is wrong, but it could be the actual biodiesel smell -- I took my VW to a mechanic to have a wheel bearing replaced, and he complained about the biodiesel dripping on the floor of his shop and making it smell like french fries. Personally, if I have to open the fuel system up for anything, I try to make sure it's full of B100, because I can't stand the stench of diesel fuel -- not just when working with it, but for days afterwards, because I can't wash it off my hands. One of my Aunts said diesel smell turns her on, because her husband was a diesel mechanic for many years... I have to admit that the smell of two cycle gas engine smoke brings back fond memories of firewood cutting in the fall growing up. Even though the actual odor is anything but pleasant. -- Thanks, PC He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE HELP
Not where they're going... John Beale wrote: Oh, that is just tragic. I'm not only going to withdraw my life savings, I'm also going to go take a cash advance on my credit cards so that I can make the most generous donation I am capable of asap -- hell, it's only 23% interest for cash advances. While I'm at it, I should also donate my time. Mike, do you know if the Enron execs need a seasoned volunteer ass wiper? -John On Jun 1, 2006, at 7:26 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: I would like to encourage each and everyone of you to seriously consider the charity described below. Now that the holiday season has passed, please look into your heart to help those in need. Enron executives in our very own country are living at or just below the seven-figure salary level. More tragic, they will be deprived of it as a result of the bankruptcy and current SEC investigation. But now, you can help! For only $20,835 a month*, about $694.50 a day (that's less than the cost of a large screen projection TV) you can help an Enron executive remain economically viable during his time of need. Almost $700 may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to an Enron exec it could mean the difference between vacationing in Fiji and owning it. It will enable him or her to trade in the year-old Lexus for a new Ferrari without jeopardizing those jealously guarded retirement accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans. To you, seven hundred dollars is nothing more than rent, a car note, or a second mortgage payment. Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the exec you sponsor. Detailed information about his/ her stocks, bonds, 401(k), real estate, and other investment holdings will be mailed to your home. Imagine the joy as you watch your executive's portfolio grow exponentially--and that's just his disclosed assets! Plus, upon signing up for this program, you will receive a photo of the exec (unsigned) - for a signed photo, please include an additional $50.00. Put the photo on your refrigerator to remind you of other people's suffering. Your Enron exec will be told that he/she has a SPECIAL FRIEND who just wants to help in a time of need. Although the exec won't know your name, he or she will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator just in case additional funds are needed for unexpected expenses. And there will be those. As poor Mrs. Ley so sincerely reported, her husband somehow managed to misplace over $100 million that he received in just the last 2 years. Stephen King couldn't script a scenario more frightening. I'd write more, but I'm having trouble seeing through my tears. Thank you for your expression of love. *Per special regulation passed in closed session this past year, contributions are tax-deductible only to recipients. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
On 6/1/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? I agree but, one big step is better than lying in the fetal position. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Stop making fun of my name. My mother was an ARGGH, my father was a Weaver. Therefore, it's ARGGH-Weaver. Honestly, what did they teach you in school? Mike ARGGH-Weaver Keith Addison wrote: WHICH MIKE? Mike R., the one I replied to. Okay, I'll put it on top next time, sorry. Henceforth I'm signing my posts as Weaver. ARGGH. -Weaver You don't mind hello Weaver? Or is that ARGGH-Weaver? :-) But I don't think of you as Weaver, I think of you as Mike. Well, whatever, I shall strive to mend mine evil ways. Keith Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I'm currently in rehab for my glycerine cocktail problem. No one should go w/o treatment. If you have a glycerine problem, the only thing you should be concerned with is getting help *now*! Appal Energy wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hey Redler!! Nice to see you have taken the first step!On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in rehab for my glycerine cocktail problem.No oneshould go w/o treatment. If you have a glycerine problem, the only thing you should be concernedwith is getting help *now*!Appal Energy wrote:Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH.Tom,I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie,At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils.Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd SwearingenJason Katie wrote:i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final productin splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the sameas far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and totalelectrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for foodpreparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproductor should i keep looking?- Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questionsJason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I thinkthis is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH.I do separate the glycerine because I produce quitea bit of BD thesedays. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo ofcaustic, of which70%,by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like tocontrol how much is added to my garden which has done just fine onpre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses forthe other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid)before I was able to locate phosphoric.I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitateout.Ex:Hydrochloric Acid+ Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and waterHCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt)+ H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out?The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on topandthe crude glycerine (+most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer.The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os.They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way ofsoilnutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ...notonly a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten.KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate.valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. Thedifference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail.Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the saltproduced would have more value.***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in waterandadd it to my compost piles. It has value as in...can be put to gooduse. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of asubjectthat is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others havecalled waste productsis akin to the feeling I get when I fill thetank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom- Original Message -From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questionswhat other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to cleanglycerine for compost? i have been reading for three
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
My name in Pinkler. -Mike Fred Finch wrote: Hey Redler!! Nice to see you have taken the first step! On 6/1/06, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm currently in rehab for my glycerine cocktail problem. No one should go w/o treatment. If you have a glycerine problem, the only thing you should be concerned with is getting help *now*! Appal Energy wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. The methanol fraction is toxic and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. And no doubt the ratio of roughage to glyc cocktail certainly is paramount. But how many people hear the word compost, dump tonnage into a pile, and expect miracles without maintenance or moderation? This is largely what I believe biodieselers do..., just dump and make another batch and dump again, until they have a stew pit that isn't working. As for methanol, you just won't find me a very big proponent of tossing something that can contribute to surface and ground water contamination. I am rather fond of the belief of greens going the extra mile rather when feasible/achievable. Pour-and-go biodiesel? Yes. Dump-and-go glycerol cocktail? Strong reservations and with fair reason. Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
Zeke, You wrote : I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). Is the petro diesel winterized? I used B70 all last winter (the 30% petro was winterized) and never had a problem w. gelling. The car is parked outdoors; temps to -10F were common enough.. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? There is a big sign inside our local biodiesel coop that says B20 is only for suckers or something to that effect. I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). This is from my experience with how the engines run on B20 or B100 vs D100 -- if it doesn't have at least 20% biodiesel I get more black smoke and louder engine noise, plus the fumes bother me. On 6/1/06, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
Hmmm. The B20 I buy is supposedly winterized, but on one morning, -5F, it seemed to be slightly gelling. I stuck some diesel 911 in there, and it was fine. Only that one time the whole winter though. I tried running B50 or so in 10F weather, and I think I was getting some gelling (but it also could have been the filter clogging because the biodiesel was cleaning out all the crud in my tank). I've run B100 down to 22F (canola feedstock). Z On 6/1/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke, You wrote : I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). Is the petro diesel winterized? I used B70 all last winter (the 30% petro was winterized) and never had a problem w. gelling. The car is parked outdoors; temps to -10F were common enough.. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? There is a big sign inside our local biodiesel coop that says B20 is only for suckers or something to that effect. I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). This is from my experience with how the engines run on B20 or B100 vs D100 -- if it doesn't have at least 20% biodiesel I get more black smoke and louder engine noise, plus the fumes bother me. On 6/1/06, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. And no doubt the ratio of roughage to glyc cocktail certainly is paramount. But how many people hear the word compost, dump tonnage into a pile, and expect miracles without maintenance or moderation? This is largely what I believe biodieselers do..., just dump and make another batch and dump again, until they have a stew pit that isn't working. As for methanol, you just won't find me a very big proponent of tossing something that can contribute to surface and ground water contamination. I am rather fond of the belief of greens going the extra mile rather when feasible/achievable. Pour-and-go biodiesel? Yes. Dump-and-go glycerol cocktail? Strong reservations and with fair reason. Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of separated salts to other compost materials. Best Keith Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Ok Keith; Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize vermicomposting was on JtF but I'll check it out. I was planning on doing it indoors due to the cold winters here. I understand it doesn't smell if you do it right. Now that I've got the house all to myself, I'm hoping to do something unobtriusive under the counter in my kitchen:) ahh the FREEDOM! Cheers Joe Keith Addison wrote: Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Hi Joe I was the bad guy here a few years ago after I reported murdering some red worms that way. :-( But lots of things will kill worms if you feed it to them in the wrong way. Try making a worm box/bin on the ground, say 2ft square (60cm), with the bare soil as the floor. Give it a sloping lid so the rain runs off (and runs away from the bin). Start off with a couple of thousand worms (1kg) or so in some sort of suitable bedding (see Compost Vermicomposting at JtF). Put the bedding on the soil, 3-4 deep (8-10cm). Water the soil floor first and make sure the bedding is wet enough. Add whatever, kitchen wastes, garden wastes and so on, livestock manure. Mixed is better. Add about 1kg a day at first, you can increase it later (up to a point) when there are more worms. The worms have a strong effect on the surrounding microlife in the wastes, while the soil beneath and its soil life act as a buffer. If you put another bin right next to the worm bin and added the same bedding and the same wastes day by day but without any worms, it takes a different course (different smell too). Decaying wastes from the wormless bin can be toxic to worms, though the same wastes in the wormbin don't harm them. A wormbin that's not on a soil base is less forgiving, I think you could add some glyc cocktail to the feed in the wormbin this way - same as with compost, a little at a time along with other mixed stuff. I'd like to know whether adding diluted crude glycerine separated from the cocktail to wormfeed this way might have similar effects to those Tom's been getting with thermophilic compost, very interesting. I'm not set up for that right now, I'll have to breed up some extra worms first. Best Keith Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Methanol make you go blind, I suppose the worms wouldn't mind. Ken --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
Aaaah, The feedstock. If you buy it, you don't know the feedstock could be tallow for all you know. My favorite BD is made from oil that is used to fry chicken. The car smells like a barbeque. It's not good in winter; it has a high cloud point. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment Hmmm. The B20 I buy is supposedly winterized, but on one morning, -5F, it seemed to be slightly gelling. I stuck some diesel 911 in there, and it was fine. Only that one time the whole winter though. I tried running B50 or so in 10F weather, and I think I was getting some gelling (but it also could have been the filter clogging because the biodiesel was cleaning out all the crud in my tank). I've run B100 down to 22F (canola feedstock). Z On 6/1/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke, You wrote : I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). Is the petro diesel winterized? I used B70 all last winter (the 30% petro was winterized) and never had a problem w. gelling. The car is parked outdoors; temps to -10F were common enough.. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? There is a big sign inside our local biodiesel coop that says B20 is only for suckers or something to that effect. I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). This is from my experience with how the engines run on B20 or B100 vs D100 -- if it doesn't have at least 20% biodiesel I get more black smoke and louder engine noise, plus the fumes bother me. On 6/1/06, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
Well, they say it's virgin soy oil usually. I've recently switched to a different supplier which is using used oil instead of virgin, so I really don't know what it is... On 6/1/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aaaah, The feedstock. If you buy it, you don't know the feedstock could be tallow for all you know. My favorite BD is made from oil that is used to fry chicken. The car smells like a barbeque. It's not good in winter; it has a high cloud point. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment Hmmm. The B20 I buy is supposedly winterized, but on one morning, -5F, it seemed to be slightly gelling. I stuck some diesel 911 in there, and it was fine. Only that one time the whole winter though. I tried running B50 or so in 10F weather, and I think I was getting some gelling (but it also could have been the filter clogging because the biodiesel was cleaning out all the crud in my tank). I've run B100 down to 22F (canola feedstock). Z On 6/1/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke, You wrote : I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). Is the petro diesel winterized? I used B70 all last winter (the 30% petro was winterized) and never had a problem w. gelling. The car is parked outdoors; temps to -10F were common enough.. Tom - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? There is a big sign inside our local biodiesel coop that says B20 is only for suckers or something to that effect. I personally won't run anything LESS than B20 in my vehicals (unless it's really really cold and the B20 is gelling). This is from my experience with how the engines run on B20 or B100 vs D100 -- if it doesn't have at least 20% biodiesel I get more black smoke and louder engine noise, plus the fumes bother me. On 6/1/06, Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the local paper. http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/22918 New Holland goes biodiesel By Patrick Burns, Intelligencer Journal Staff Intelligencer Journal Published: May 24, 2006 8:20 AM EST LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - Farm equipment maker New Holland announced Tuesday that it is the first U.S. engine manufacturer to fully advocate the use of biodiesel blended fuels in all engines it produces. Joe Jobe, New Holland chief executive, said the company has gone one better than other engine producers in fully adopting a maintenance and technical support program for customers who want to use B20 blends (20 percent biodiesel 80 percent petroleum-based diesel) on all equipment currently produced with New Holland engines. Biodiesel is a renewable fuel produced from oilseed crops -- primarily soybeans in the United States and canola in Canada, and animal fats -- that's blended with conventional diesel to meet specified industry standards. New Holland is the first to specifically say that they approve the use of B20 in their engines, Jobe said. Darryl Brinkmann, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board, said New Holland's backing of biofuel use is consistent with the sentiments of its farming customers. This move by New Holland represents a strong show of support for the soybean farmers who stepped up to the plate years ago to begin the biodiesel program, Brinkman said. New Holland is a brand of CNH Global, a world leader in agricultural, utility and construction equipment. Dennis D. Recker, vice president of New Holland Agricultural Business in North America, said the company's decision came because of crude oil prices. Diesel sold on average for $3 per gallon in Lancaster Tuesday, according to AAA. That's up 28 percent from a year ago and almost double what it was in early 2004. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
yes, but i was listing the USEFUL properties of KCl. as far as comparative toxcicity goes, you could use table salt for lethal injections as well, only in slightly larger amounts. LI uses are not applicable to our needs, so i did not mention it. sorry to confuse. jason - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Isn't KCl what lethal injections are made of?? J Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy, but your goofy question is part of a subject that is of great interest to me. The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have called waste products is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. Best of luck to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to clean glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant find any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? has anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] HHO for welding running your ca
I'm reminded of a thing called Brown's gas that i read about. http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/whatis.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I'd like to try some heat-assisted catalytic reformation of Keith -- if for no other reason than the irony of a biofuels list owner being made into biodiesel. -John On Jun 1, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. And no doubt the ratio of roughage to glyc cocktail certainly is paramount. But how many people hear the word compost, dump tonnage into a pile, and expect miracles without maintenance or moderation? This is largely what I believe biodieselers do..., just dump and make another batch and dump again, until they have a stew pit that isn't working. As for methanol, you just won't find me a very big proponent of tossing something that can contribute to surface and ground water contamination. I am rather fond of the belief of greens going the extra mile rather when feasible/achievable. Pour-and-go biodiesel? Yes. Dump-and-go glycerol cocktail? Strong reservations and with fair reason. Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. Tom, I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think they're composting it. I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. The methanol fraction is toxic It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. ... Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide variety of conditions. Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental effects. From More about methanol (with refs): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including enhanced composting. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If you're
[Biofuel] Biodiesel from wood
Has anyone heard of such a thing? It says Wood-based biodiesel production requires the development of new technology. Are they on to something or are they still working out if this is even possible? Steve http://snipurl.com/r8b3 (2006-05-26) Hydro and Norske Skog have agreed to carry out a joint feasibility study relating to the production of biodiesel from wood. The intention is to identify the feasibility of establishing a biodiesel production facility in south-east Norway. Such a plant could come on stream by 2012 at the earliest. We consider ourselves to be natural partners as far as wood-based biodiesel is concerned. Hydro has wide experience derived from the construction and operation of major processing plants and from the quest to find new forms of energy. Norske Skog has considerable expertise when it comes to wood purchasing and treating wood pulp, say senior vice president Alexandra Bech Gjørv of Hydro and vice president Terje Engevik of Norske Skog. A technically superior product The production of biodiesel is currently based on rapeseed or other oil-based raw materials. Wood-based biodiesel production requires the development of new technology. Once this technology is in place, it will be possible to offer an even better product than today?s biodiesel. Today only a five-percent biodiesel tank mixture is available. Wood-based biodiesel will give us a technically superior product without such limitations. By using timber we can also utilize a much greater proportion of the raw material and considerably reduce greenhouse gas emissions compared with biodiesel produced from rapeseed or other plant oils. This means that wood-based biodiesel will be a an even more environmentally friendly fuel than today?s biodiesel, the two companies say in a press release. NEW ENERGY: Alexandra Bech Gjørv is responsible for Hydro's efforts to develop renewable energy. (Photo: Kåre Foss) Long road to completion The road to completion of a possible production plant is, however, a long one. To begin with, collaboration between the two companies involves a feasibility study that will primarily provide an overview of the technologies available in the market, identify the availability of raw materials, and create a realistic picture of the external governing conditions that must be in place in order to reach an investment decision. CO2 emissions represent a climate threat that affects all of us, and we can see that the political will exists to promote biodiesel as an environmentally friendly alternative to regular fuels. There is great potential for biodiesel in the market of the future, but if this market is going to materialize we are in need of a sound, long-term operating framework from the authorities, state Bech Gjørv and Engevik. Author: Lars Nermoen Published: 2006-05-26 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
i didnt explain my situation as thouroghly as i probably should have. this is my problem- I live in an apartment, i cannot store large containers of chemicals because i have no outbuildings, and the management company would not be happy with me if i brought it in the house. also, i do not have a supplier of phosphoric acid that sells anything less than buckets ( buckets at best, most sell only bulk drums) and the majority of these i have found do not sell ANY to private buyers, only companies. i know vinegar can be made privately, that is why i asked, and muriatic acid can be had in gallon bottles from the hardware store. i am not trying to refine byproducts, i just want mostly clean glycerine to use in compost, and if i can use, compost, or sell whats left, all the better. if i cant realistically, properly get rid of it, ill go back to the books and try again. as we all know, flexibility is key. jason - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt produced would have more value. ***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water and add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good use. Sorry to get so wordy,
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel from wood
Using wood as feedstock means using either lignin or cellulose, right? If so, alot of stuff could be made into biodiesel -- grass, weeds, cardboard, etc... Thermo catalytic cracking is the only thing I can think of that could do this. Unless they have some fancy microbes that can digest lignin and give oil? I also remember that in WWII germany was trying to distill gasoline substitutes from pine trees -- I thought this was more like turpentine though, derived more from the sap than the wood? I'm not an expert on this by any means, but perhaps someone else remembers exactly what they were doing. Zeke On 6/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone heard of such a thing? It says Wood-based biodiesel production requires the development of new technology. Are they on to something or are they still working out if this is even possible? Steve http://snipurl.com/r8b3 (2006-05-26) Hydro and Norske Skog have agreed to carry out a joint feasibility study relating to the production of biodiesel from wood. The intention is to identify the feasibility of establishing a biodiesel production facility in south-east Norway. Such a plant could come on stream by 2012 at the earliest. We consider ourselves to be natural partners as far as wood-based biodiesel is concerned. Hydro has wide experience derived from the construction and operation of major processing plants and from the quest to find new forms of energy. Norske Skog has considerable expertise when it comes to wood purchasing and treating wood pulp, say senior vice president Alexandra Bech Gjørv of Hydro and vice president Terje Engevik of Norske Skog. A technically superior product The production of biodiesel is currently based on rapeseed or other oil-based raw materials. Wood-based biodiesel production requires the development of new technology. Once this technology is in place, it will be possible to offer an even better product than today?s biodiesel. Today only a five-percent biodiesel tank mixture is available. Wood-based biodiesel will give us a technically superior product without such limitations. By using timber we can also utilize a much greater proportion of the raw material and considerably reduce greenhouse gas emissions compared with biodiesel produced from rapeseed or other plant oils. This means that wood-based biodiesel will be a an even more environmentally friendly fuel than today?s biodiesel, the two companies say in a press release. NEW ENERGY: Alexandra Bech Gjørv is responsible for Hydro's efforts to develop renewable energy. (Photo: Kåre Foss) Long road to completion The road to completion of a possible production plant is, however, a long one. To begin with, collaboration between the two companies involves a feasibility study that will primarily provide an overview of the technologies available in the market, identify the availability of raw materials, and create a realistic picture of the external governing conditions that must be in place in order to reach an investment decision. CO2 emissions represent a climate threat that affects all of us, and we can see that the political will exists to promote biodiesel as an environmentally friendly alternative to regular fuels. There is great potential for biodiesel in the market of the future, but if this market is going to materialize we are in need of a sound, long-term operating framework from the authorities, state Bech Gjørv and Engevik. Author: Lars Nermoen Published: 2006-05-26 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Ok Keith; Thanks for the advice. I didn't realize vermicomposting was on JtF but I'll check it out. I was planning on doing it indoors due to the cold winters here. They're supposed to prefer about 25 deg C (77F) but -10C doesn't seem to stop them (14F), maybe they get the composting micro-bugs in the wastes to warm it up a bit. The very edge of the wastes gets icy but not further in. I understand it doesn't smell if you do it right. Compost doesn't either, just a bit earthy maybe. You might get fruit flies with the worms though. Not too wet helps, but not too dry either. Now that I've got the house all to myself, I'm hoping to do something unobtriusive under the counter in my kitchen:) ahh the FREEDOM! :-) That works well. Lots of how-to stuff at JtF. We've got a really good system for worms and kitchen wastes, it's a definite improvement on any of the bins you can buy. It took me 20 years to figure that out. I want to spend a bit more time using it first, I'll probably upload the plans after the summer. Don't wait for that though, go right ahead, a box under the sink works well. I've done that in a small 19th floor flat with no balcony and no access to any kind of garden, very easy to do. Check out the how-to's. Lumbricus rubellas or Eisenia foetida. Enjoy all that freedom, when it gets lonely you can sing to the worms. (Whence the other occupants?) Best Keith Cheers Joe Keith Addison wrote: Hi Keith; What about in the case of vermicomposting? Any advice on putting a little cocktail in there? Will it harm the worms? Hi Joe I was the bad guy here a few years ago after I reported murdering some red worms that way. :-( But lots of things will kill worms if you feed it to them in the wrong way. Try making a worm box/bin on the ground, say 2ft square (60cm), with the bare soil as the floor. Give it a sloping lid so the rain runs off (and runs away from the bin). Start off with a couple of thousand worms (1kg) or so in some sort of suitable bedding (see Compost Vermicomposting at JtF). Put the bedding on the soil, 3-4 deep (8-10cm). Water the soil floor first and make sure the bedding is wet enough. Add whatever, kitchen wastes, garden wastes and so on, livestock manure. Mixed is better. Add about 1kg a day at first, you can increase it later (up to a point) when there are more worms. The worms have a strong effect on the surrounding microlife in the wastes, while the soil beneath and its soil life act as a buffer. If you put another bin right next to the worm bin and added the same bedding and the same wastes day by day but without any worms, it takes a different course (different smell too). Decaying wastes from the wormless bin can be toxic to worms, though the same wastes in the wormbin don't harm them. A wormbin that's not on a soil base is less forgiving, I think you could add some glyc cocktail to the feed in the wormbin this way - same as with compost, a little at a time along with other mixed stuff. I'd like to know whether adding diluted crude glycerine separated from the cocktail to wormfeed this way might have similar effects to those Tom's been getting with thermophilic compost, very interesting. I'm not set up for that right now, I'll have to breed up some extra worms first. Best Keith Joe Keith Addison wrote: Snip It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. snip It certainly won't harm a compost pile. Anyway the methanol should be removed first. and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. It depends how much of it you use. It will need to be mixed thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, brown materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials as only a part of the overall mix. -- Composting http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost It works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Hi Jason i didnt explain my situation as thouroghly as i probably should have. this is my problem- I live in an apartment, i cannot store large containers of chemicals because i have no outbuildings, and the management company would not be happy with me if i brought it in the house. also, i do not have a supplier of phosphoric acid that sells anything less than buckets ( buckets at best, most sell only bulk drums) and the majority of these i have found do not sell ANY to private buyers, only companies. i know vinegar can be made privately, that is why i asked, and muriatic acid can be had in gallon bottles from the hardware store. i am not trying to refine byproducts, i just want mostly clean glycerine to use in compost, and if i can use, compost, or sell whats left, all the better. if i cant realistically, properly get rid of it, ill go back to the books and try again. as we all know, flexibility is key. Flexi-compost. No problem, go ahead with HCl. You can use both the separated crude glycerin and the salts in the compost, and burn the FFA. KCl is fine as long as you compost it first. Don't worry about the phosphorus, it won't be missed. See my other posts and the JtF links I posted. Whatever they might do or not do at Infopop and so on doesn't matter a lot. Best Keith jason - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than useful, if not toxic, salts. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible byproduct or should i keep looking? - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions Jason Katie, I'm not sure what you mean when you say clean the glycerine for compost. Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which 70%, by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd like to control how much is added to my garden which has done just fine on pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses for the other components of the mix. I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as muriatic acid) before I was able to locate phosphoric. I did a few small test batches and got good separation. The difference will be the type of mineral salt that will precipitate out. Ex: Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water HCl + NaOH NaCL (table salt) + H2O The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom layer. The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of soil nutrients, but I have found that they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ... not only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate . valuable as fertilizer. The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced.
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
I'd like to try some heat-assisted catalytic reformation of Keith -- if for no other reason than the irony of a biofuels list owner being made into biodiesel. That's not the way it works here John, we always do test batches with new members first. You express an interest so I take it you're volunteering? A couple of months here already, but you won't have started oxidising yet, it should be okay. We'll try cataleptic reformation first, it's hell when the test-batch struggles. Best Keith -John On Jun 1, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel from wood
Hi Zeke and all Using wood as feedstock means using either lignin or cellulose, right? If so, alot of stuff could be made into biodiesel -- grass, weeds, cardboard, etc... Thermo catalytic cracking is the only thing I can think of that could do this. Fischer-Tropsch conversion of synthesis gas to oxycarbon alcohols into synfuel hydrocarbons (syn-gasoline, diesel, jet fuel). Same as VW's SunFuel, followed by turkey diesel, pigshit diesel, dead-cat diesel and so on. From an offlist message a few years ago: One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer globally. I don't think there's anything new in this, just new bells and whistles I guess. Not for backyarders, industrial-scale only. Unless they have some fancy microbes that can digest lignin and give oil? Have to wait for GMOs I think. I also remember that in WWII germany was trying to distill gasoline substitutes from pine trees -- I thought this was more like turpentine though, derived more from the sap than the wood? Japan also did that, for the same reason. I don't know much about it either, but more like turpentine anyway. Best Keith I'm not an expert on this by any means, but perhaps someone else remembers exactly what they were doing. Zeke On 6/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone heard of such a thing? It says Wood-based biodiesel production requires the development of new technology. Are they on to something or are they still working out if this is even possible? Steve http://snipurl.com/r8b3 (2006-05-26) Hydro and Norske Skog have agreed to carry out a joint feasibility study relating to the production of biodiesel from wood. The intention is to identify the feasibility of establishing a biodiesel production facility in south-east Norway. Such a plant could come on stream by 2012 at the earliest. We consider ourselves to be natural partners as far as wood-based biodiesel is concerned. Hydro has wide experience derived from the construction and operation of major processing plants and from the quest to find new forms of energy. Norske Skog has considerable expertise when it comes to wood purchasing and treating wood pulp, say senior vice president Alexandra Bech Gjørv of Hydro and vice president Terje Engevik of Norske Skog. A technically superior product The production of biodiesel is currently based on rapeseed or other oil-based raw materials. Wood-based biodiesel production requires the development of new technology. Once this technology is in place, it will be possible to offer an even better product than today?s biodiesel. Today only a five-percent biodiesel tank mixture is available. Wood-based biodiesel will give us a technically superior product without such limitations. By using timber we can also utilize a much greater proportion of the raw material and considerably reduce greenhouse gas emissions compared with biodiesel produced from rapeseed or other plant oils. This means that wood-based biodiesel will be a an even more environmentally friendly fuel than today?s biodiesel, the two companies say in a press release. NEW ENERGY: Alexandra Bech Gjørv is responsible for Hydro's efforts to develop renewable energy. (Photo: Kåre Foss) Long road to completion The road to completion of a possible production plant is, however, a long one. To begin with, collaboration between the two companies involves a feasibility study that will primarily provide an overview of the technologies available in the market, identify the availability of raw materials, and create a realistic picture of the external governing conditions that must be in place in order to reach an investment decision. CO2 emissions represent a climate threat that affects all of us, and we can see that the political will exists to
Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. It said on the box the stork brought that I'm 100% biodegradeable, but maybe it just meant the box. The family said the stork was good though, but they didn't like the trimmings it came with (me). On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a word with him that will suffice. Well I don't really mind, better than the glue factory, but I'll put a serious hex on anyone who uses me to push up tulips, I hate tulips. I guess deadly nightshades would be okay. Keith Appal Energy wrote: Well..., I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon Valdez dropping. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
