[Biofuel] cell phones and safety

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I find myself in need of doing a little preaching today.  Sorry, but for 
me, this is the best way I can deal with the horror of last night.


Last night a young women of 21 or so was driving down the highway talking 
on her cell phone and definitely driving with no care and attention to what 
she was doing.  I guess she thought that by staying mostly on the shoulder, 
it was safe to drive and talk.  Then she dropped her cell phone and reached 
for it.  A man, barely 10 years her senior who was riding his bicycle, died 
because of her actions.  Her life will never be the same, either.


As for me, I can not work to erase the memory of what I saw until he has 
had his day in court.


Please, turn your cell phones off while driving.  It was not just that she 
dropped that cell phone.  She did not see the cyclist, because she was 
distracted by her conversation.  He was plainly visible long before he was 
hit, I know, I watched the accident about to happen and it did.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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[Biofuel] Preparing for the future

[Kim & Garth Travis]

As Garth and I continue our work to make our place sustainable, we do 
think about the future in terms of worst case scenario, plan for that, 
then we can enjoy living day to day without worrying.  On this scenario, 
we do expect the economy to crash and that most stores will not be there 
any more.  This being the case, we are trying to figure out what really 
needs to be stocked up on.


Our list so far is: sewing needles, buttons, zippers, thread, carding 
tools, spinning tools, extra blade for the scythe, extra knives, 
scissors, razor blades, sharpening stones.  Salt, coffee and tea would 
need to be stocked as well, since I can not create them on my land.  I 
do believe that before I got desperate for parts for my machinery, that 
it would be available from wrecked and abandoned machinery.  Lack of 
fuel will get many vehicles.


Methane, solar and wind will be our main power sources.  Food we can 
grow, even if we have not yet got into growing grains.  We still have a 
long way to prepare, but we would like to hear anyone else's thoughts on 
what would be real wealth, that is useful, in such a scenario.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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[Biofuel] Eco fan

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I bought my eco fan about 6 years ago.  I could not heat my home without 
it.  I have the 6" model, but I understand they come in a 9" model now.  If 
you can buy in Canada, they are quite a bit cheaper, since that is where 
they were developed.  It is really fun when the stove gets real hot and the 
fan starts rocking back and forth to cool it's feet.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:06 PM 4/28/2005, you wrote:

Hi Darryl, Mike


Perhaps a variant on the Ecofan would work.

http://www.caframo.com/ecofans.htm


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Re: [Biofuel] soap, glycerine by-product and how my farm is

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Rob wrote:




Would you like plans for a VERY cheap dehumidifier (probably less than $20) 
that can take out over a gallon of water a day (depending on humidity) ??

I would very much like the plans.  How much energy does it use?  We do 
have an electric humidifyer, but it sucks powers like an AC unit. 
Necessary to use, at times, but I hate plugging the darn thing in.



Incidently we are having an underground (Earth Sheltered) house built, and below 4' the 
tempreture is around 50 oF (coldest)in Winter and 64 oF (warmest) in summer, so maybe 
even a "Storm Cellar" type structure built into the ground may work.

Must be nice.  With our heavy clay, heavy rains and flat land that is 
slightly lower than all our neighbors, this is not a good idea.



Rob


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] soap, glycerine by-product and how my farm is doing

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Keith Addison wrote:

>   I do want to make some liquid soap, but not from by-product, I
> want good   soap (shower soap). I made some a couple of times
> before with olive oil,   not too bad, but not that good either.
> I've read that you really need   coconut oil to make good liquid
> soap, and I can't get coconut oil here.   What do you use?
I only use coconut oil in my dishwashing soap.  Castor bean oil is good, 
but I am heavy on the tallow usage.  I do make a 100% olive for shampoo, 
but I superfat it 5% and lately have been using both NaOH and KOH 
together to get a creamy soap.  I have really enjoyed using goat tallow, 
but now I am out.  I do use lots of emu oil, but I used to own a bunch 
of them.  [The last of them is on their way to the freezer as we speak.] 
 Lard is one of the best soap ingredients there is.  I also really like 
lamb tallow.  I was in an exotic oil soap swap and got some fantastic 
soaps, including one called 'Road Kill'.  Quite exotic.

 snip

>
> Good luck Kim, please keep us advised.
>
I will certainly do so.  I have a 55 gal drum of used oil just waiting 
for me to learn what to do with it.  This summer will see a building go 
in to house a generator and biofuel lab.  Now, just have to find time to 
actually learn how to make the fuel.


>snip
> But you've learnt from that now, you won't make those mistakes next
> time, and it'll give you better insight on other things too, don't you
> think?
I hope so.  I am so tired of finding out after I build the darn thing 
that I have done it wrong.  By now I have gotten smarter, as soon as I 
have something to test, I test it!  I don't wait for the thing to be 
completely finished to find out my booboos.

Snip
>
> If it's efficient (buried inside a hill?) and you have sufficient
> on-farm energy it might be worthwhile. Do you smoke meat, or make
> pemmican (biltong)? Sun-dried fruit? Some veggies sun-dry well too.
> Ferments are probably best.
>
Actually my land is real flat, so underground will not work.  I have 
looked into solar dehydrators, but with my normal humidity of 80%, it is 
hard to dry anything.  We run the hot water through the towel rack while 
having our showers in order to heat and dry the towels.  They naturally 
soak up moisture from our environment.  If you know how to dehydrate 
with high humidity, I would love to learn.


A smoke house is on the list of things to build, but when I am not sure. 
 Fermented food still has to be stored at around 50F or it spoils. 
That is what I did with last years harvest and we love it.  Much better 
for us, no more bought condiments either.  I now make them all myself 
and like them better.


>> Well, chores are calling.
As always  the above is true again.  I have a chicken loose that the dog 
scared so, by now she should have calmed down and I can go and catch 
her.  If I leave her out for the night, she will be something's dinner.


> Thanks Kim, strength to yer arm!
>
Thanks Keith, and much health and energy to you as well as Bright Blessings,
Kim

>

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[Biofuel] soap, glycerine by-product and how my farm is doing

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Keith I make soap with KOH and/or NaOH depending on what I want.  A 
liquid soap, bar soap or cream soap.  I don't know what you have 
available for animals tallows, but goat, emu and pig are all wonderfully 
hydrating, so using them in addition to your leftovers could remove the 
caustic qualities.


I would love to hear how things work out on using the byproduct in 
biogass production.  Since I use a grey water system, I don't thing 
dumping it down the drain will help.


Making biodeisel has been moved up in our priority list.  I walked the 
aisles of the store yesterday looking for a HPDE bottle with 2 lids, 
they don't exist in this part of Texas.  I guess I will have to syphon 
off the good stuff when I am done.  I will be using my soaping crock pot 
and my drill press to make my first production unit.  I just need to 
make the mixing blade and to pick up some methanol.  I have been 
preparing for the next few learning lessons as well by picking up a ph 
meter and some lab equipment for titration.  Now, if I can find the time 
off from the farm to do it.


For the last year we had our rabbits directly over the compost pile. 
This sure saved a lot of work on a weekly basis, but what a nightmare to 
move!  Shoveling out a 16'x4'x4' compost pile from inside a building is 
not a job I ever want to do again.  We are in the middle of a rabbitry 
rebuild and I have found that I am a really lousy engineer.  The first 
design did not allow the rabbit cage doors to open, the second one had 
the back of the drain tray so shallow that everything washed right over 
and onto the floor.  I think I have it right this time.


Our third attempt at a chicken tractor has worked out perfectly.  We 
love it and so do the chickens.  The change in the pasture where we have 
run them is fantastic!


The research into traditional food storage in this area has led to an 
understanding that it was not done.  Food storage is either walking on 
its legs or still in the ground.  Fruit was turned into jams, jellies 
and wine to preserve it.  Even if you have a hill to go underground in, 
the best you will get is 70F.  Nice living temperature but not 
sufficient for cool storage.  We are looking a expanding the green 
houses, in the plans and doing quite a bit of experimenting with what 
will actually grow when.  We will do a small solar ac cool storage, but 
we are going to try to avoid the need for it.


Well, chores are calling.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

Keith Addison wrote:


snip

I'm sceptical of claims that people make soap out of it of a high enough 
quality to sell. Anyway we use KOH, not NaOH, so the by-product is 
always liquid and I don't think it could be made into a solid bar soap. 
No doubt you can make soap out of it that works okay but isn't good 
enough to sell, but that would be far more soap than we could ever use. 
As a cleaner and degreaser it's effective but it's very caustic, rough 
on the hands. We're working on a soapmaking process that we hope will 
give us a liquid product that's as effective as a degreaser but won't be 
so harsh.





snip

But if that's what you do or want to do, you should check with your 
local water department first.


Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Re: The Energy Crunch To Come

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Sorry, but I live in Texas and your English is so much better than the 
average of what I hear, that you must be a foreigner 


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:34 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote:



Thanks anyway, because I thought that my English is
so bad, that it exclude the possibility that I was American.

Hakan


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Re: [Biofuel] Lots of questions

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Many people are switching from electric hot water to propane, so the 
electric hot water heaters are available.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:15 AM 3/31/2005, you wrote:

Ken
Where do you get a SPENT hot water heater that doesn't leak. For me ... 
that would be the reason to get rid of it.

Thankks
Wide open for ideas
Roy


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Re: [Biofuel] Where's Keith?

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Information was passed, questions answered and yes, we did carry one 
without you.  BUT, you have become a friend and your presence is missed.  A 
candle sits on my altar sending healing energy to you.


While I do understand that you must move on to follow your path, we do hope 
you will still visit with us.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:01 AM 3/28/2005, you wrote:

If it all STILL depends on me, then all that time and effort was wasted - 
many hundreds of hours and more. One man can't do this - what it NEEDS is 
not me but a community effort, as I've said all along. Otherwise? Let it die.


Best wishes, and thanks again

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: [aquaponics] sailwing pump

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Thank you for this forward, it is an interesting site with many things that 
I need on it.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:38 PM 3/24/2005, you wrote:

Here is second generation of the sailwing pump on my site. 
www.oneseedling.com   enjoy.
For those who missed the Aquaponics Conference in N.C. hosted by Charlie 
Johnson you missed a great one.  We learned more than we taught.  Paul & 
Bonnie Range


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Re: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

[Kim & Garth Travis]

We have access to a full metal working shop, with quality welding 
equipment.  Many thanks for the posts, this is the kind of stuff I was 
looking for.  Next time, I will put 'low cost' in my search and find things 
myself.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:59 AM 3/24/2005, you wrote:

 A google search of
 "LOW-COST WINDMILL FOR DEVELOPING NATIONS"




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RE: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am aware of how technically advanced our ancestors were.  One only need 
look at the pyramids to be reminded of such feats.  However, the use of 
wind driven water systems are wide spread in history and all over the 
globe.  I expect it to be technical, but not beyond the home bogders ability.
Thank you for the links.  I will read them next week, as I am going on 
retreat this weekend.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:05 AM 3/24/2005, you wrote:

Hello Kim,

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that just because of something 
belonging to history means that it was not technical in
nature. Quite the contrary when you look at many past achievements. The 
basic principles of windmills are still the same today as in
say early American history. The technological improvements have been more 
towards increasing their efficiency. I have included a
link below that will describe the basic principles of windmill operation. 
And with these basic principles at had, you can build your

own.

http://www.windmill-windmills.com/how-windmills-work.htm

If you are not handy with making your own check-valve pumps, pump leathers 
etc.. you could order those parts from someone like

http://www.windmill-windmills.com

Best of luck with your project.

Tim


>Greetings,
>I don't see how the pump can be real high tech if they have existed for
>over 2000 years.  Yes, one can use high tech to build one, but it should
>not be necessary.  My uncle had one that was only 20 feet tall and it
>worked just fine.  He built it himself.  Depends where you are.  He was in
>the middle of the bald prairie.  I am trying to find information about how
>they were made before they went high tech and got real expensive.

>Yes, I am aware that the low tech ones are not as dependable, need more
>wind to actually pump and the other limitations.  I don't see this as a
>problem.  I don't want the upkeep on a high tech system.  I want something
>that can be repaired at home.  I have entirely too much stuff already that
>when it breaks, it will be permanently broken due to parts be
>un-available.  I am tired of built in obsolescence and new designs.

>Bright Blessings,
>Kim


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Re: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I don't see how the pump can be real high tech if they have existed for 
over 2000 years.  Yes, one can use high tech to build one, but it should 
not be necessary.  My uncle had one that was only 20 feet tall and it 
worked just fine.  He built it himself.  Depends where you are.  He was in 
the middle of the bald prairie.  I am trying to find information about how 
they were made before they went high tech and got real expensive.


Yes, I am aware that the low tech ones are not as dependable, need more 
wind to actually pump and the other limitations.  I don't see this as a 
problem.  I don't want the upkeep on a high tech system.  I want something 
that can be repaired at home.  I have entirely too much stuff already that 
when it breaks, it will be permanently broken due to parts be 
un-available.  I am tired of built in obsolescence and new designs.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:24 AM 3/24/2005, you wrote:
It's not as low tech as you might think Kim. There is a gear-driven, 
wind-powered, turbine motor which includes a reciprocating mechanism to 
derive the pump action. Usually the turbine fan is 6 - 10 feet in diameter 
and the tower is in the range of 40-50 feet tall.


Short of finding a "how to" book, your best bet is to order a repair 
manual for something like the Aeromotor 702. This will show you all the 
drive mechanisms, bearings, bushings and joints.


http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/702assembly-manual.htm

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps



Greetings,
I am looking for information on how they are made, not a place to buy 
one. I have looked at buying one before, but the prices are out of this 
world. Since this is low tech, I see no reason to spend $3000 on a 
pump.  I am planning on using the pump on my aquaculture system, as well 
as back up to my well, if possible.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:40 PM 3/23/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

What do you have in mind, the common everyday windmill or something
else?  In the event it's the standard windmill I'm surprised  you didn't
find anything on them.  I would think a trip to
http://www.yoderswindmillservice.com/ should start answering  all of your
questions.  Then try these as well http://www.windmills.net/
http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/ , this google
http://www.google.com/search?q=water+pumping+windmills&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&start=0&sa=N
or http://tinyurl.com/4bum4 should net you 45K hits or so. Enjoy.
Doug


- Original Message -
From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:17 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps


: Greetings,
: I have been through all my reference books, etc. and I can not find any
: information on wind powered water pumps.  Does any one have the directions
: for building one?  What are they capable of and other such information
will
: be appreciated.
: Bright Blessings,
: Kim
:
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Re: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am looking for information on how they are made, not a place to buy 
one.  I have looked at buying one before, but the prices are out of this 
world.  Since this is low tech, I see no reason to spend $3000 on a 
pump.  I am planning on using the pump on my aquaculture system, as well as 
back up to my well, if possible.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:40 PM 3/23/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

What do you have in mind, the common everyday windmill or something
else?  In the event it's the standard windmill I'm surprised  you didn't
find anything on them.  I would think a trip to
http://www.yoderswindmillservice.com/ should start answering  all of your
questions.  Then try these as well http://www.windmills.net/
http://www.aermotorwindmills.com/ , this google
http://www.google.com/search?q=water+pumping+windmills&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&start=0&sa=N
or http://tinyurl.com/4bum4 should net you 45K hits or so. Enjoy.
Doug


----- Original Message -
From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:17 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps


: Greetings,
: I have been through all my reference books, etc. and I can not find any
: information on wind powered water pumps.  Does any one have the directions
: for building one?  What are they capable of and other such information
will
: be appreciated.
: Bright Blessings,
: Kim
:
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RE: [Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Thank you and yes, I did download that book when Kirk listed it.  It is 
very good about generating power from wind, but I don't want to create 
power.  I want a pre-electric wind powered water pump.  Mankind has been 
using them for thousands of years, so they should be reasonably easy to 
make and maintain.

Bright Blessings,
KIm

At 11:50 AM 3/23/2005, you wrote:

Hello Kim
Thanks to the list member Kirk McLoren I found a very interesting link to
an e-book on wind energy, it was inside the message he posted the 21th of
septembrer 2004. I pasted the message if you do not find it searching the
archives.
There you might find what you are looking for.
Best Regards
Juan


-Original Message-
FromKirk McLoren [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   September 21, 2004 5:00 PM
For:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[Biofuel] Wind Energy Systems

free download -- book

http://www.eece.ksu.edu/~gjohnson/

Revised January 29, 2004
Dr. Gary L. Johnson taught electrical engineering at Kansas State
University for 28 years before taking early retirement in 1994.  He wrote a
textbook "Wind Energy Systems" which was used in a senior elective course
for many years. Prentice-Hall let the book go out of print and gave the
copyright back to Dr. Johnson. The revised and expanded version was then
used for several more years. This textbook is available at no charge in
.pdf files, listed below. The file contents.pdf has a title page, prefaces,
and table of contents. The files wind1.pdf through wind9.pdf are the nine
chapters of the book. Please send Dr. Johnson an email at [EMAIL PROTECTED],
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-Original Message-----
From:   Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   March 23, 2005 12:18 PM
For:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

Greetings,
I have been through all my reference books, etc. and I can not find any
information on wind powered water pumps.  Does any one have the directions
for building one?  What are they capable of and other such information will
be appreciated.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

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[Biofuel] wind powered water pumps

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I have been through all my reference books, etc. and I can not find any 
information on wind powered water pumps.  Does any one have the directions 
for building one?  What are they capable of and other such information will 
be appreciated.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] Problems with the Biofuel list

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am unaware of any problems that could call for this apology.  I am on 
other lists that go down much more frequently.  My cheesemaker list 
disappeared for over a month!With Yahell, we kept getting unsubbed.  I 
think you are doing a great job, Martin.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:18 PM 3/21/2005, you wrote:

I would like to apologize for the technical problems that have occured
with regard to the biofuel list and the JtF website over the past 2 years,
and the associated consequences that took place as a result. They are all
my fault, however; I would like to say that I "did what I could with what
I had at my disposal" (as much as that may be a cop-out).


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Re: [Biofuel] What is factory farming?

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Actually the difference is whether or not we see the land as a resource to 
be used up or as something to be improved.  Many good types of farming are 
extremely intensive.  But not monocrop, intensive.  Square foot gardening 
is a great example.  You mix plants, those that have short roots with those 
that have long roots; you use companion planting so the bugs can't find 
what they want to eat; you mix tall skinny plants with bushy plants so 
everything has room to grow.  And that garden bed is really full.  Very 
intensive use of the land, but not factory by any definition.  It is the 
single crop, depleting the soil that is a problem.  It is chemicals, 
overused rather than managed use to build the soil that is factory.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:07 PM 3/13/2005, you wrote:

To my mind, it is really intensive farming vs
non-intensive farming.
In Asia, even small farms are generally intensive.  I
have seen some small free-range poultry farms where
chickens and ducks are given about 2 to 3 sq ft of
space per bird, in an enclosed yard.  That's
intensive.  Off the ground, in sheds, the birds
generally have 1.2 sq ft of space per bird.  Put in
ventilation, the space is reduced to 0.75sq ft.
Farms like this are purpose-build for viral mutation
and clearly non-sustainable in all sense of the word.

What is non-intensive?  I have grown pastured chickens
on the same piece of land for 7 years now and have no
disease outbreak in that time.  I give each bird 20 sq
ft of land, and move them every couple of weeks.

Of cos, the other issue we have to address is that if
we all start non-intensive farms, we will soon run out
of land, which will bring up a new set of problems
altogether.

Regards

HS

--- Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I have been thinking about the problems with factory
> farms vs sustainable
> farms.  I appears, to me at least, that the debate
> has an erroneous
> assumption; that all large farms are factory and
> that most small farms are
> sustainable.  This is totally false.

Regards,

HS Wong
Visit my farm: www.dqcleanchicken.com
Find out about the most important chicken: www.junglefowl.org
You can contribute to sustainability: www.sustainablelivingcentre.com



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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Meeting in Edmonton, AB

[Kim & Garth Travis]

It is wonderful to see our old home town getting into Biofuels!!!  I am 
going to forward you email to all our family and friends that are still there.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:49 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote:

BIODIESEL MEETING IN EMONTON, AB

We are looking for people in the Edmonton, Alberta, Canada area who are 
interested in making biodiesel or are already making it.


Four of us have decided to call an informal meeting to explore ideas; to 
network; to promote the benefits of biodiesel - about making it, buying 
it, learning and teaching ourselves and our communities.


The meeting will be held at the home of Lance VandenBorn, 12029 - 92 St., 
Edmonton on Saturday, March 19 at 4:00 pm.


Joey Hundert makes biodiesel to run his Mercedes.  He will bring samples 
(running & otherwise) and pictures!


Please contact one of us if you are interested in attending; we would like 
to get an idea of how many people to expect.


Contact people:
Lance VandenBorn, ph/fax 780-435-2393, email [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
website www.thompsonvalley.com

Joanne Olafson, ph 780-444-4798, email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The other 2 people involved in initiating this meeting:  Joey Hundert, 
Everett Hewitt.


Our proud sponsors in Edmonton:
Thompson Valley Farms, 780-435-2393, www.thompsonvalley.com
Earth's General store, 780-439-8725, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thank you,
Joanne

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Re: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms ... and vegetarians

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I totally agree that VASTLY less meat can be easily done.  There is no need 
for a 16 ounce steak.  I eat a 6 ounce serving, 5 days a week.  90% of the 
meat raised at my place feeds Miss Dusty and Miss Hayley, my two canine 
companions.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:59 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote:

on 3/10/05 3:33 PM, Jones, Raina Tamsyn (UMC-Student) at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

Thx for the detailed reply. I was a vegetarian for several years, and then
backslid -- soon I will become less wealthy, and will be a (sloppy)
vegetarian again. I can vouch that with proper forethought, one can do
quite well -- also, when I occasionally go out for dinner, a filet mignon
is very nice. In general, I think VASTLY less meat can be easily and safely
done...


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RE: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms ... and vegetarians

[Kim & Garth Travis]

pert little packages of ready-wrapped meats.  The connection with the 
animal and the hard fact of having to kill an animal to survive or eat 
meat is all but gone from the better part of society.  I think if many 
people knew what happened behind factory farm doors, they would be 
appalled.  So, I applaud those who are sensitive to the needs of animals, 
and who have that relationship.  Many earlier human societies were the 
same way; killing an animal was done out of necessity, for survival.


At any rate, not to blather on, but I just wanted to add my two cents, and 
point out that it's actually extremely easy to stay healthy today as 
vegetarians -- so long as vegetarians (or vegans) know how to do it right.


Fascinating discussion!

Best,
tamsyn

____________

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Kim & Garth Travis
Sent: Thu 3/10/2005 6:49 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms



Greetings,
Not everyone can stay healthy on a vegan diet.  Many of us get very sick
when we cut out all meat.  Just eating dairy and eggs is not
enough.  Besides, I do need the manure from my animals to fix my burnt out
land.  If you read through the small farms section of JTF, you will find
all kinds of information about this.  The only cure I have found for cotton
rot in the land is blood and offal.  When I asked Texas A&M how to cure
cotton rot, they told me it could not be done.  Well I did it.

There are many reasons as to why to eat meat.  Good 100% grass fed beef and
lamb has Omega 3s and lots of CLA that keeps you healthy.  It also does not
have the mercury that fish has these days.  I know that some people can
stay healthy as vegetarians, but not many.  I know I read a study, I can't
remember where that vegetarians have shorter life spans, on average.

At 07:55 PM 3/9/2005, you wrote:

>I hear you -- my sister's a vegan, but she eats her own eggs (ie, her
>CHICKENs' eggs :-)) because she knows they're well-treated. Far be it
>for me to preach vegetarianism -- that would be extremely hypocritical.
>But it's an issue I'm addressing now. Why eat "lower" lifeforms at all?
>Dirt would be best, plants next, animals last if ever.
>
>-K

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Re: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Not everyone can stay healthy on a vegan diet.  Many of us get very sick 
when we cut out all meat.  Just eating dairy and eggs is not 
enough.  Besides, I do need the manure from my animals to fix my burnt out 
land.  If you read through the small farms section of JTF, you will find 
all kinds of information about this.  The only cure I have found for cotton 
rot in the land is blood and offal.  When I asked Texas A&M how to cure 
cotton rot, they told me it could not be done.  Well I did it.


There are many reasons as to why to eat meat.  Good 100% grass fed beef and 
lamb has Omega 3s and lots of CLA that keeps you healthy.  It also does not 
have the mercury that fish has these days.  I know that some people can 
stay healthy as vegetarians, but not many.  I know I read a study, I can't 
remember where that vegetarians have shorter life spans, on average.


At 07:55 PM 3/9/2005, you wrote:


I hear you -- my sister's a vegan, but she eats her own eggs (ie, her
CHICKENs' eggs :-)) because she knows they're well-treated. Far be it
for me to preach vegetarianism -- that would be extremely hypocritical.
But it's an issue I'm addressing now. Why eat "lower" lifeforms at all?
Dirt would be best, plants next, animals last if ever.

-K


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[Biofuel] What is factory farming?

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I have been thinking about the problems with factory farms vs sustainable 
farms.  I appears, to me at least, that the debate has an erroneous 
assumption; that all large farms are factory and that most small farms are 
sustainable.  This is totally false.  I have seen some small 5 to 7 acre 
homesteads that can outdo any large farm for pollution.  The worst 
offenders I have seen are the people who raise ducks and geese, by the 
hundreds on a couple of acres.  I have also seen a 5000 acre farm, farmed 
by 3 generations of a family that is moving steadily towards true 
sustainability.  Incorporating the use of chicken tractors for fertility, 
goats for weed control and other measure to nurture the land of a huge 
dairy and beef cattle farm.  As more and more intentional communities are 
formed, we are seeing more and more large sustainable farms.  It has become 
clear that we need to look beyond the size and output of a farm to decide 
what type it actually is.


Bright Blessigns,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Actually, we are not hypocrites, but totally aware of what it takes to get 
factory meat to the table.  People who name their animals generally treat 
their animals in a reasonable fashion.  I am not going into details of how 
bad the factory process is this early in the morning, but there are far too 
many reported cases of animals being skinned alive, being forced to walk on 
broken legs and other tortures to support this kind of processing.  Not to 
mention the feedlots and other disgusting tactics that are used on the poor 
animals.


My animals are raised to be food.  That is why I have them.  This does not 
stop me from scratching their ears, petting them and making their life as 
wonderful as possible while they are alive.  I also thank each one of them 
for the gift of their life energy, before we kill them.  This is not 
hypocrisy, but reality.  I do not send my animals out to be slaughtered 
because I do not like the way the local processor treats the animals.  I am 
taking responsibility for my food.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:27 PM 3/8/2005, you wrote:

on 3/8/05 5:30 AM, Kim & Garth Travis at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



> Yes, we turn vegetarian in public.  Our rule, if I don't
> know its name, I am not eating it.
>


I dunno -- sounds a little hypocritical (tho in general I
like your stuff. I'll think about this longer). Why eat
your friends at all? I have 13 birdies, and I eat chicken
or turkey maybe twice a week -- an I feel Sh**ty about it.
As soon as it's not PUT in front of me, I won't. It's so
wasteful, and each of those birdies would've PREFERRED to
live longer, even if they WERE conscientiously DISPATCHED.

-K


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RE: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Thanks for the support Keith.  I am thinking about the 100% grass fed 
people, who raise animals strictly by pasture and hay.  Many of them also 
raise pork this way.   It takes about 6 months longer to get the animals to 
slaughter weight this way, but it is not bad for the environment and is 
much healthier meat for us.  That extra six months must be paid for, so, 
selling the tallow and lard for fuel could be profitable.  Some of the 
family farms that are run this way are quite large, with hundreds of head 
of cattle, sheep and pigs.


 I have found, myself, that one does get lots of lard from pigs, and if 
you don't use it to cook, there is only so much soap you need.  A gallon of 
lard, much more than that on a single pig.  I got almost 2 gallons off the 
last goat I had to slaughter. [He was at my place for a whole 20 minutes, 
but he was mean and no animal is going to head butt me!]  He made wonderful 
dog food and fantastic soap.


Comparing all people that raise animals for meat to slaveholders is totally 
unjust.  My animals live the healthiest, most natural lives right up until 
the second they die.  No torture of trailer rides, being poked and prodded 
to walk on broken legs or any of the other abuse that goes on in the 
factory world.  Yes, we turn vegetarian in public.  Our rule, if I don't 
know its name, I am not eating it.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:56 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote:

Hello Bo

But Kim is right. Unless you add some such proviso to your exclusion, your 
blanket condemnation could indeed harm the good guys. For one thing, 
though you might be well aware of the difference, you shouldn't presume 
that others will be. You could well be persuading them to condemn the 
wrong people, possibly in other spheres too, not just biodiesel. Factory 
farms are an anachronism, they don't have a future; farmers like Kim are 
the future, and blanket condemnations now could warp that future for them 
and for us all.


My friend, there is no large enough source of lard or tallow feedstock 
from a family farm. I appreciate your concern about blanket 
condemnations, but once again, would you say "don't condemn all 
slaveholders; many are small plantations who treat their slaves decently?"


It's a poor comparison, as what you say below of your own practices 
demonstrates.


Best wishes

Keith


I am not a vegetarian, because I AM a family farmer. I've been involved 
in animal husbandry and subsistence farming for many years; I am not an 
urbanite discussing this from an armchair in my drawing room. If my milk 
cow has a boy calf, there is no other future for him than to be eaten. If 
one of our laying chickens dies, or we have too many roosters, they must 
be eaten. If we were not willing to eat this occasional meat, we could 
not raise milk or eggs. So I am not naive about necessary and natural 
relationships.


Factory farming, whether owned and operated by a family or a large 
corporation, is a despicable abuse of power by our species, just like 
slavery, and is unnatural and extremely unhealthy for everyone in all 
directions.


No one is going to be able to produce biodiesel from collecting a gallon 
of lard from one little farm and two gallons from another every few weeks 
or months. That's not what my e-mail was about. Sometimes blanket 
condemnations are actually appropriate, as in the case of slavery or 
genocide. What we do with animals every day and every night in factory 
farms is both slavery and genocide. Sorry, I cannot hedge on that. To me, 
that's false tolerance and is a problem of our age.


Bo


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RE: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms

[Kim & Garth Travis]

But what if your lard or tallow came from the small family farms trying to 
survive?  Any blanket statement is against improving the farming 
picture.  Many people do raise animals in a humane, environmentally 
friendly manner.  And we have a hard time staying alive with the 
competition from the factory farms.  Cutting off a source of income, to us, 
without investigating who is doing what is harmful and promotes the factory 
farms.  Trace your sources and be picky about whom you support, 
yes.  Blanket condemnation is what is killing the small farmer who is doing 
it right.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:36 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote:
To answer your question, Keith, my organization, Carolina Biodiesel Inc 
(www.carolinabiodiesel.org) has already discussed and made official policy 
that we would not morally be able to use animal waste as a feedstock no 
matter how cheap it was or who else was doing it. We decided we did not 
want to benefit from the back door of factory farming, even if it meant we 
could no longer compete with other producers. wrong is wrong.


Sounds like you and I see the connection between factory farming and the 
ecological movement in much the same way. Glad it's being said somewhere.


Bo


From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:24:45 +0900

Hello Bo


Hi Keith,

I apologize for hyperbole in using terms like "the least of the 
problems," but to be more accurate, my point is still that I have met 
biofuels folks who have made enthusiastic friendships with factory 
farmers as though waste and fuel were the only issues, not the horrific 
treatment of living beings.


Did you read my whole reply to you? Including the last paragraph?

One reason that I posted this here is that we keep having these 
band-aid allegedly new-tech industrial "solutions" offered (eg with 
turkey wastes) that will turn the wastes into energy, hey, "solving" 
the whole problem so we can all ride off into the sunset and everyone 
lives happily ever after (except the turkeys). Then some list member 
enthuses over its being wondrously environmental, and some of them have 
been completely baffled when I've said there's more to it than that. 
You see the problem.


There's more to it than "the horrific treatment of living beings" too - 
or at least the living beings being factory farmed aren't necessarily the 
only ones being horrifically treated.


It hurts to see that, much like it would if we were involved in this 
field during the ninetheenth century and formed affectionate 
relationships with slaveholders who were a good source of cottonseed 
oil. The people may indeed be nice individuals, but they are involved in 
a significant social evil that we must not turn a blind eye to.


Indeed not, but it's hardly the only significant social evil involved in 
fuels and biofuels issues, or in food and fuel issues.


That was all I was trying to get across. I love and respect animals for 
the same exact reasons I want to use and support biofuels. How can the 
two be separated?


Would you use biodiesel or WVO containing lard or tallow or chickenfat?

Actually I don't see abusing animals as much different to abusing 
anything else, whether it's plants and trees, soil, air, water, other 
humans, or any other part of the biosphere - hubris in general, and 
indeed very much to do with supporting biofuels.


Best wishes

Keith



Bo


From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:51:56 +0900

Hello Bo

Please friends, let's realize the problem with factory farms is 
factory farming -- not the discharge of wastes.


Nope - both are problems, and they're not the only ones. Of course 
without the factory farms the waste problem wouldn't exist, but the 
waste problem is nonetheless a useful approach, for raising awareness 
and for bringing pressure to bear.


There is no stretch of the imagination that can condone the torture, 
cruelty and insanity of raising "food" in that way.


I fully agree.


Ever been inside one?


Yup.

Please don't even respond to this e-mail unless you have, or at least 
have seen truthful film footage of how animals are raised and treated. 
I'd like to think that anyone interested in biofuels would be 
absolutely opposed to factory farming.


Absolutely - and if not why not.


The wastes are the least of the problems, in my view.


The wastes are a severe problem in their own right. It's all a problem. 
There's nothing good about any aspect of it.


You will, I believe, find previous posts on many or most of the other 
problems associated with factory farming in the list archives. That 
includes for instance how the feed is produced, a whole other 
nightmare, the effects of which are global, with some horrendous results.


One reason that I posted this here is that

[Biofuel] lost in translation- OT

[Kim & Garth Travis]

This weekend, my DH and I bought some wood chairs made in China.  The box 
says they are fir, but they sure smell like cedar and look like cedar to 
us.  Is this a miss translation or is there a wood in China that is called 
fir that looks and smells like North American cedar?  If so, does anyone 
know the properties of this wood?


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] US Fuel Efficiency Truth-in-Advertising Act

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Thank you for the wonderful explanation of what I grew up calling: The art 
of smooth motoring.  My brothers would set a glass of water on the dash of 
the car and then let me drive.  I was allowed to drive until I spilled the 
water.  I have been grateful all my life for their teachings.  It is also a 
major component of defensive driving, especially watching down the road.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
PS I sold my last car with 140,000 miles on the original brakes and they 
didn't need any work.  Not even new pads.


At 04:38 PM 3/4/2005, you wrote:

i guess i must be one of
those whinners and fools todd speaks of.


What might be beneficial is to take a look at what you call "pay[ing] 
attention," rather than just comparing your end result/complaint to 
anecdotal complaints of others.


Do you accelerate to a stop? How quickly do you accelerate? Do you time 
stop lights? Do you leave an extra expanse of space between yourself and 
the car in front of you so you don't have to brake as frequently as they 
do? Do you continuously scan the road in front of the drivers in front of 
you? Do you realize that there's little sense on many surface streets of 
traveling the top speed limit because everything "gained" in speed is lost 
in braking? The closer the braking points the less benefit to obtaining 
the speed limit.


I don't know many drivers who have an instinctual connection between their 
car's ability to accelerate and their foot feed.


A fuel-conscious/aware driver spends more attention to reducing pedal 
pressure than he or she does to acceleration.


Todd Swearingen


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Re: [Biofuel] Reskilling is Subversive?

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am at fault to a degree.  I am involved in adult literacy, not public 
education.  While I can understand a good teacher objecting to the teaching 
to tests, when the local elementary English teacher told me: "you done 
good." I can understand why some of the changes were made.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 10:23 AM 3/3/2005, you wrote:

Howdy

Kim & Garth Travis wrote:

Bush senior saw to it that literacy was well funded.  Programs went broke 
under Clinton.  The funding came back under Bush W.  It may be the only 
thing they do right, and I do believe it is, but accuracy in reporting, please.


This is not the way most of my educator friends see it.  Seems most 
teachers like neither the emphasis placed on testing
rather than teaching, and most importantly the "no child left behind" left 
the money somewhere else because it sure isn't going to fund the program.


see for example:
--
http://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/releases/rel21104b.html

 Education Not a Bush Budget Priority,
Representative Miller to Testify
-
http://www.all4ed.org/publications/StraightAs/Volume5No3.html

BUSH SPENDING PLAN CUTS EDUCATION BY 0.9 PERCENT OVERALL: $1.5 Billion 
Plan for High Schools Paid for Through Cuts Totaling $2.17 Billion

---
http://www.nea.org/lac/fy06edfunding/index.html

Bush '06 Budget Cuts Education Funding

--
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG

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Re: [Biofuel] Reskilling is Subversive?

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I love it, re-skilling is subversive.  I love to fight the dumbing down of 
America.


Yes I am subversive, but attacking anyone in the Bush family for education 
doesn't sit well.  I have a major problem with the Bush family for many 
things, but I know for a fact that they are the biggest supporters of 
literacy programs, period.  While I am aware that it is the women in the 
family that push this issue, the men do support it.  I have spent the last 
twelve years extremely involved in adult literacy in a county with a 40% 
illiterate rate, I have won many awards and been sent as a delegate to 
national conferences, so I do know what I am talking about.


Bush senior saw to it that literacy was well funded.  Programs went broke 
under Clinton.  The funding came back under Bush W.  It may be the only 
thing they do right, and I do believe it is, but accuracy in reporting, please.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 09:14 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote:



Let's see, deskilling is a horrible problem, old country
hippies are subversive...I see an epiphany coming on..

Reskilling is Subversive! Fight the Dumbing Down of America.
Knowledge is Power. Why are they Gutting Public Education?
Can George Bush define Irony? Does he know what Skeptical
means? Is it Dangerous to be Skeptical?

I'm trying to Think..but nuthin Happens :-)


-K

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Re: [Biofuel] End of Suburbia" and Ruralization

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Well, I am not sure about your second point.  Soil is built or made, since 
most of the land that was once rich is now depleted.  If you are talking 
about each adult having their own farm, then no, we don't have enough 
land.  But if each adult had their own plot, they would never get the work 
done.  Extended families, small groups living together on each farm, then 
yes, I do belive we have the land.  It would take breaking up the huge 
farms and ranches, but agribusiness is not healthy for the planet anyway.


I am not sure what your definition of viable real estate is.  Many people 
would consider the land I have viable now, but it was not when I got it 
twelve years ago.  I had no top soil, no earth worms and lots of cotton 
rot.  I can now run a couple of cows on strictly grass fed, with just a 
little hay in the winter.


Material to build is what is in the waste stream of the area.  After market 
building is big as is alternative building with whatever the land 
provides.  A different solution for each situation, which makes it 
difficult to talk about in generalities, but it is amazing what can be done.


Water is an issue, but I think most people are unaware of how little you 
actually need when it is used wisely.  To use water wisely, brings us back 
to many of the lost arts, such as soap making.


It is also true that much of what applies to the rural setting, can and 
should be practiced in the city.  Green lawns should be replaced with 
gardens.  A great deal of knowledge needs to be applied to both 
settings.  But first, we must get the urban law makers to allow sane living.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 12:56 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote:

Well yes the rub is in defining rural.  My point is you don't have to drive
very far "out of town" to find the very same things that where being used to
paint urban as somehow more evil than rural.  The second point was that
there is not enough viable real-estate available for every family have their
own self-sustaining homestead.  Viable meaning  decent soil, enough water to
support, crops humans and livestock, material to build the shelter, fuel and
anything else I may be forgetting.  The whole urban Vs. rural debate can
never be productive because, a mix of the two has to be the ultimate
outcome.  Yes urban as well as rural and can, do better in reducing their
impact on the environment, but IMO putting one above the other is counter
productive.
Doug


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Re: [Biofuel] End of Suburbia" and Ruralization

[Kim & Garth Travis]

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka  USA

Greetings Mike,

Actually I am listing urban as a place that has lots of rules.  Rural can 
do for oneself.  I live outside of a small town, don't know how many 
people.  They just incorporated around a year ago although the town was 
established in 1832 in the province of Tejas.  We have 6 churches, 3 
restaurants, a bank, video rental place, post office, gas station with 
store and a produce store .  No bars, local option is dry.


 You have put your finger on the real problem with urbanization, too many 
rules against living sanely.  In Houston, most neighborhood gestapo won't 
allow a clothes line!  Forget solar panels and solar hot water.  The 
Houston Renewable Energy  [EMAIL PROTECTED] list has great fun with this, at 
least we provide a place for people to rant.  My lifestyle of compost 
toilets and a grey water system would be totally against the law.




My point is that even if "one engages the brain at all times", current
author excluded of course, and works incredibly diligently at keeping
his/her impact(s) on the environment to acceptable minimums, our
infrastructure and inability to adapt, with anything that resembles
acceptable speed, is not allowing us to change.


And why do we have all these dumb rules?  Because self reliance went out of 
fashion and everyone wants to be protected.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] "End of Suburbia" and Ruralization

[Kim & Garth Travis]

for their ideas.

Where I live, you used to be able to get 3 acres and a 1200 square foot 
shell house for $18,600 with $1000 down and payments of $183 per month.  No 
credit check, no id required.  The reality is that we attracted many of the 
worst kind of people to the area.  Theft skyrocketed, violence, drugs and 
all sorts of problems happened.  Some good people came too and they are the 
ones who stayed.  It was a rough 5 years until the town had a population 
base built up and they started selling finished houses for outrageous 
amounts of money.  After having lived through this, I really wonder if 
these towns know what they are doing.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 06:52 AM 3/2/2005, you wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/02/opinion/02greene.html?oref=login
The New York Times > Opinion >

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR

Empty House on the Prairie
By BOB GREENE

Published: March 2, 2005

Chicago

IF you and your family would like to move to Crosby, N.D., not only will 
the town give you a free plot of land on which to build your house, 
they'll also throw in a free membership to the Crosby Country Club.


If you and your family would like to move to Ellsworth, Kan., not only 
will the town give you free land, they'll also give you thousands of 
dollars toward a down payment on the house you build if you have children 
who will attend the public school.


If you and your family would like to move to Plainville, Kan., not only 
will the town give you free land, they will also drastically reduce the 
property tax on your house for 10 years, and the first-year tax rate will 
be zero percent.


The logical question, upon hearing all of this, is the one I presented to 
Plainville's mayor, Glenn Sears:


What's the catch?

Mr. Sears paused for a good seven seconds before answering, as if the 
question itself did not make sense. Then he said, "There is no catch."


But there is a requirement: that you pack up your life as you now know it, 
and start again in Crosby (population 1,100) or Ellsworth (population 
2,500) or Plainville (population 2,000). The free-land offer is the result 
of one of the most significant American stories of the last century, one 
that has received sporadic attention because it has unfolded so gradually: 
the inexorable population flow out of rural areas, toward larger cities.


The tiny towns in the Great Plains and upper Midwest don't want to die. 
They are trying to keep their young people from departing, to beckon home 
those who have left, and - more and more - to think of ways to entice 
outsiders to come and build and stay. Thus, proposed tax breaks in Iowa; 
loans in Nebraska; land giveaways in Kansas and elsewhere.


And although word of these lures is getting out, no one truly knows 
whether any of it will work. In northwestern North Dakota, they think 
there is no option but to try: Steve Slocum, of the area's development 
alliance, said, "You don't get any pheasants if you don't shoot your gun."


There may be an inherent problem in the approach: when something is free, 
it appears to have no value. Playing hard to get has long been more 
effective than throwing yourself at someone. The jaded big-city 
negotiating line is: "Desperation is the worst cologne."


They're not buying that in the towns giving away the land. When I 
suggested that the towns might do better by taking the opposite 
psychological direction - charging hefty initiation fees for the pleasure 
of living in a quiet, safe, low-stress environment - Anita Hoffhines, head 
of the effort in Ellsworth County, said, "We've tried coy long enough."


Yet there does seem to be a danger that, by all but begging outsiders to 
come, the rural communities will send a false and counterproductive 
message: that small-town life is so undesirable that the only way to keep 
people is to chain them down (or bribe them). It might be better to 
explain to the world exactly why a placid way of life is preferable to 
urban cacophony and chaos - and inform the outsiders that this kind of 
living is so valuable, they're going to have to pay a little extra for the 
privilege of moving in. Make what's inside the tent seem irresistible - a 
lesson that should have been learned on the midways of every county fair 
there ever was.


Not that the small towns aren't trying to spell out their qualities. 
They're doing it earnestly (Lincoln, Kan.: "The Size of a Dime With the 
Heart of a Dollar"); with a wink (northwestern North Dakota: "We have four 
distinct seasons - three are absolutely beautiful, one is very distinct"); 
with exuberant punctuation (Atwood, Kan.: "Where else can you enjoy a cup 
of coffee at the local cafe, and everyone there is your friend?!").


In some of these towns, a commute to work is four minutes; crime is all 
but nonexistent; at night you half-believe you can look toward the 
soundless sky and see the outskirts of heaven. And isolation, in our age 
of 500 channels, of easy Internet access and e-mail, does not 

Re: [Biofuel] End of Suburbia" and Ruralization

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I think our definitions of what is rural and what is urban need to be 
straightened out.  If you live in a town, on an ordinary lot, in a single 
family home, you live an urban lifestyle, no matter where it is.  The 
reason I say this, is because only small lots require  water and waste 
treatment plants.  And that is a fallacy, too.  Actually, compost toilets 
and grey water systems work really well, improve your land and have no 
waste.  They do not require public works and are not bad for the 
environment.  The problem is that one must engage the brain at all times, 
when using the systems or yes, you could make yourself very sick.


To live in the country does require a higher degree of organization and 
more of a willingness to do for oneself, even if it is just cooking your 
own meals.  We don't have a McDonalds just around every corner.


I meet lots of people who are living a life based on fear, and are so 
unhappy.  They simply do not understand that it is the lack of skills that 
is causing this problem.  This is especially easy to see in middle-aged 
single moms, living in the country without the skills to look after their 
own place.  Add to that a limited income, and yes I do understand the 
fear.  The thing is, the skills are not that difficult to acquire.


There is a real joy, in eating a meal that with the exception of the salt 
and pepper, came from your land, was processed 100% on the land and in a 
home that your built yourself.  It is fun setting an example of how it can 
be done,  in reasonable comfort and in safety.  It is empowering to know 
that you can survive whatever is coming down the road.  Yeah, I guess I am 
kinda subversive.  But what else would you expect from an old hippie? 


Bright Blessings,
Kim



At 11:35 PM 2/28/2005, you wrote:

Hi,

Frankly I'm glad there are those who  desire are willing to live in the
cities, there is not enough real estate available to spread us all out in
that mythical bucolic rural setting. I can only hope those who are able to
by choice to live and work in a rural area appreciate the luxury, for the
luxury that that is.

Rural itself has miles and miles of hard road surfaces and associated
storm drainage.  There has to as much goods transported into rural areas as
there is transported into urban. Rural also requires both water and waste
treatment.  Rural has it's share of  stink and noise.  Forget some supplies
when in town?  May be up to a 15 mile drive to get what you forgot or ran
out of  I'm not so sure rural residents really want to see an all
*inclusive* comparison who pay taxes and who receives tax revenue or
receives subsidies.   A fact that Cook County receives 90% of the taxes
collected by the State of Illinois is, data insignifica with out knowing,
what percentage of the tax revenue was extracted from Cook County.   There
is a good chance it IS rural that can't survive without subsidies, think
carefully about opening that door. Respectfully please don't perpetuate the
myth about the big bad public works.  Privatize you  may see any  savings to
be had going off as profit to some far off investor instead of employing a
neibor.
Doug



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Re: [Biofuel] "End of Suburbia"

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I live in the middle of nowhere and yes, we do see this all the time.  No 
one walks anywhere, no bicycles, very few motorcycles.  They drive 25 miles 
to the city daily for whatever, even if they do not work.  Many who live 
here drive 150+ miles a day to work and back.


Me, I go to town once a week, in my Volks TDI.  I did look at getting a 
motorcycle, but the animal feed ect. just doesn't fit.  Eventually we hope 
to lower the amount we are spending off farm, but it takes time and effort 
to build the place, improve the soil and keep everything done.  Being self 
sufficient is really hard to set up.  For example, right now I have to buy 
milk and milk products because my cow is almost 2 weeks overdue to have her 
calf.  I did have some milk in the freezer, but we ran out.  Mother Nature 
makes this lifestyle an art, not a science.  I have read books like 5 acres 
and independence, but they obviously did not have a Jersey cow.


The biggest problem I have found it that local economy is so 
expensive.  They expect you to pay dearly for the privilege of buying 
locally, to the tune of double what I can pay 25 miles away.


Worse than that, the local produce store carries Californian oranges, not 
the Texas or Louisiana oranges that I get a Walmart. [I am in east 
Texas]  We have nothing produced locally that is sold locally.  The high 
gas prices have had little effect on the lifestyle.


Most people who have moved here from the city have no interest in doing for 
themselves.  Less than 10% of the homes have gardens, and this in a place 
where gardening year round is easy.  The reality of today makes it hard to 
believe that any 'new urbanism' is going to be an improvement.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:51 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
I think the reason the film spoke of "new urbanism" as one possible result 
(not solution) is that a possible trouble with moving further out is that 
unless you can provide all of your own goods/services (which most can 
not), the increased distance will require MORE not less transportation 
(and hence more energy). High density living facilitates a 
reduction/concentration of transportation, and also enables the use of 
higher efficiency transportation methods (mass transit for individuals, 
trains for goods, etc).

_


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Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I do not use any coconut, I use goat tallow for really creamy lather.  It 
is very kind to older skin, but cleans younger skin perfectly.  If you want 
a more hydrating soap, add 20% emu tallow.  I only use coconut for dish 
washing soap, and at that I have to add something to protect my hands from 
its drying measures, usually olive oil in a liquid [KOAH] based soap.  Many 
tallows such as rabbit and lamb also lather very well.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:52 PM 2/11/2005, you wrote:

I have been making my own soap for about 14 years now.  The only real
"secret" that I have found in regards to fantastic foaming action of your
soaps is the inclusion of coconut oil (c.o.) in your recipe.  I am aware
that a few of the more popular websites, and even books written on the
subject, warn against using too high a percentage of c.o. because of its
drying effects on the skin.  However, I keep the percentage of c.o. in my
soap between 20% and 40%, and haven't had any problems with excessively dry
skin.  Common sense must also come in to play of course.  If you start with
dry skin, you would definitely want to stay on lower end of those
percentages with c.o., and increase the hydrating oils like olive, and
settle for less foaming soap.

AntiFossil
Mike Krafka USA


- Original Message -
From: "Phillip Wolfe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine soap making


> Dear Legal Eagle,
>
> There is an industrial and commercial method of using
> refined glycerin for the manufacturing of natural
> soaps and detergents (and the harsher soaps too).
>
> As JFT advocates, there is a personal quest too -
> making your own stuff.
>
> In the industrial and commercial world there is a
> worldwide "glut" of glcyerin! compared to a couple
> years ago. I've been following this recently.
>
> But on the personal level, me thinks the idea of
> making homegrown soaps is pretty neat.
>
> It can be Family get together like making ice cream!
>
> Take care and good luck!
>
> --- Legal Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What to do with the copious amounts of glycerine by
> > product ? We can follow
> > through with the seperation of the components an get
> > a close to pure
> > glycerine, providing we have a market for it, or we
> > can use it to make soap.
> > JtF has a few good articles on that too.
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html
> > I am in the process of experiementing with a couple
> > recipes that, I hope,
> > will give a fairly decent usable product. I have
> > used some as a body soap
> > and it works great, however very little foamong
> > action and that is a problem
> > in most circles, so I am trying three diffenrent
> > approaches.
> > 1) 100ml water with 10gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> > 2) 150ml water with 15gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> > 30 200ml water with 20gr NaOH per liter of glycerine
> > by product
> >
> > Firstly the methanol must be removed/recovered by
> > raising the temps above
> > 65C (148.5F) and then the NaOH disolved into a
> > little more than warm water.
> > Once the glycerine has cooled a bit, to about 43C
> > (110F) then mix in the
> > water/NaOH while stirring for about a minute or two.
> > Pour into a mold and
> > let settle. How long will be subject of another post
> > when I have it figured
> > out :-)
> > The first one has had two weeks to settle out
> > anything that was going to do
> > that and it did. Some gelatenous substance caked a
> > portion of the hardened
> > glycerine and had to be scrapped off, but the result
> > was still solid bars.
> > The second and third recipes are yet to be finished
> > however they already
> > show more potential, primarily the third which began
> > solidifying almost
> > immediately and shows good promise.
> > I shall keep you posted as to the success/failure of
> > this as we go along. No
> > sense throwing away a perfectly good product if it
> > can be used eh? I am
> > determined that it will.
> > Luc
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box

[Kim & Garth Travis]

world.  I live as I want the world to be, and in that, I help create a good 
world.


The philosophical base on which social contract is based, means that we 
only have privacy within our own domain.  To expect privacy in the public 
sector, to me seems strange.  But then, I just finished re-reading Hobbes: 
Leviathan.


Frankly, I can not think of a thing I do that would embarrass me.  If 
someone wants a picture of me sitting on the throne that bad, what a sad 
life they must have.  But I would not be embarrassed, just sad for the person.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:03 PM 2/10/2005, you wrote:

Kim, I was struck by your statement "Honest people do not need to fear
surveillance."   I think this implies that those conducting the 
surveillance are
also honest people, which I don't think can be guaranteed.  Surveillance 
records
can be doctored.  Further, there are certain acts that can be "honest", 
which one

might still wish not to have recorded or made public.

Perhaps I am too cynical, but I believe that "honest people" may have the 
most to
fear from surveillance.  Loss of privacy for one.  And dishonest people 
likely know
enough to evade or defeat surveillance, so they possibly have less to fear 
than

honest people.

Darryl
(who is crazy enough to use his real name on the Internet)


Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Actually for those of us who always drive defensively, the black box could
> be a witness for us.  Honest people do not need to fear surveillance.  My
> parents taught me that driving was a privilege, not a right.  I see no
> problem with this and considering the road rage and other things I see on
> the highway, all the time, I think this is a good idea.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
>
> At 09:11 AM 2/5/2005, you wrote:
>
> >http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=75424
> >
> >Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that
> >information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident.
> >
> >Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to 
ones
> >in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record 
plenty

> >of other things that happen before a crash.
> >
> >News on 6 reporter Lori Fullbright has been investigating.
> >
> >Even though it's silver, it's called a black box or airbag sensor or 
event

> >data recorder. Its main job is safety, it operates the airbags, but it
> >also records information and because of that, a Glenpool teenager 
could be

> >charged with negligent homicide. It'll be the first time anyone's been
> >charged in Tulsa County based on a black box, but you can bet, it 
won't be

> >the last.
> >
> >Last year, a 19 year old man took his sister's 2002 Trans-Am out for a
> >test drive the day after she bought it. He lost control and hit two
> >utility poles; the crash killed his passenger, who was also 19. The 
driver

> >had no idea the car would become a witness against him.
> >
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--
Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?


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[Biofuel] What oil to use

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Are there any TDI owners on list.  My owners manual says to use 5W30 oil, 
but I thought you were suppose to run DeLo in deisel engines.  It seems 
weird to run ordinary oil.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion

[Kim & Garth Travis]

both hubby and I felt like visitors.  We don't live there anymore.  Maybe 
because there are two of us, both from similar culture and transplanted 
together, that our new home really feels like home.  I would say home is 
where your dreams come true.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:49 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:

IMHO, every traveller eventually goes home, because it is the only place
that really makes sense.  Every place is delicately different from every
other place.  But, in my struggles with languages while travelling, I was
always surprised to find the meaning of the translation is always so banal.
No new mysteries.  Interesting new people, with the same take on the same
stories.

How can this exist, I donno.  This insight about your wife, Derek, really
rings for me, regarding the relationships I have attempted in other
countries.  There's harmony, and at the same time, there's a tiny place
where nobody else can go.  This must be a species thing, or a primordial
DON'T MIGRATE thing, it's deep, anyway, not logical.  Humans are gregarious,
but they don't really adapt well.
Jesse

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 10:14:58 +
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam,  and Religion
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> Sorry I was confused as to whose sister was whose!
>
> Just one further comment along these lines. I've been married now for 
about 20

> years. We get along pretty well and I think we have a good understanding of
> what makes each other tick. BUT, sometimes I think my wife can run into
> someone from her hometown whom she has never seen before and know more 
about
> him in the first five minutes and what he is thinking that she does 
about me

> after all these years. And, vice versa. There is just such a deep common
> proverbial understanding on so many issues when they have the same 
background.

> I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't experienced it myself.
> Derek
> -- Original message from robert luis rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> --
>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> Hi Luc,
>>>
>>> As I believe you said that your sister was thinking of moving to 
Europe from

>> her homeland for a bit of fresh air
>>
>> Uh, Derek, that would be MY sister!
>>
>>> I might mention that I am a US expatriate. I've lived overseas now for a
>>> total
>> of fifteen years.
>>
>> I moved to Canada in 1992. It's been an enlightening experience to
>> live as a guest in someone else's country.
>>
>>> I am also married to a European, which leads to some interesting
>> (dis)harmonies as I constantly hear a European viewpoint in one ear 
and a US

>> viewpoint in the other from my US family.
>>
>> It's nice to know I'm not the only one who experiences this
>> "disharmony". Sometimes, I'm astonished at the contrast in
>> perspectives, given that we live relatively close to one another,
>> speak the same language and share many cultural values. Some
>> Americans think that Canada is either one step away from communist, or
>> so very much the same that there are no significant differences
>> between the countries. There certainly ARE differences, but they are
>> subtle.
>>
>>> It has been an education and a valued one.
>>
>> Indeed!
>>>
>>> I would encourage her to go. It would be an adventure and an 
education and I

>> don't think she would ever regret it. I know we haven't.
>>
>> She's been to Europe a few times already and really appreciates the
>> diversity of views and experience there. Europe is not without its
>> problems, however, and she's not naive. I would be sad to see her go,
>> only because she would be very far away, and at times, she seems like
>> the only thinking person in my entire family.
>>
>> robert luis rabello
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Re: [Biofuel] Automotive Black Box

[Kim & Garth Travis]

be a witness for us.  Honest people do not need to fear surveillance.  My 
parents taught me that driving was a privilege, not a right.  I see no 
problem with this and considering the road rage and other things I see on 
the highway, all the time, I think this is a good idea.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 09:11 AM 2/5/2005, you wrote:


http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=75424

Your car is most likely recording things about your driving and that 
information can be used against you if you have a traffic accident.


Most people don't know their car has a black box. They are similar to ones 
in airplanes, although they don't record voices, but they do record plenty 
of other things that happen before a crash.


News on 6 reporter Lori Fullbright has been investigating.

Even though it's silver, it's called a black box or airbag sensor or event 
data recorder. Its main job is safety, it operates the airbags, but it 
also records information and because of that, a Glenpool teenager could be 
charged with negligent homicide. It'll be the first time anyone's been 
charged in Tulsa County based on a black box, but you can bet, it won't be 
the last.


Last year, a 19 year old man took his sister's 2002 Trans-Am out for a 
test drive the day after she bought it. He lost control and hit two 
utility poles; the crash killed his passenger, who was also 19. The driver 
had no idea the car would become a witness against him.


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Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion

[Kim & Garth Travis]

snip
  Who wouldn't find liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion 
concepts worthy of utmost respect? These are supposed to be the 
undergirding principles upon which our nation was founded, and it may be 
difficult for foreigners to grasp how profoundly these ideas are impressed 
upon us from a very young age.  We are taught to believe that America 
stands for these principles, and to define ourselves as Americans with 
these ideals.  I learned the extent of my "conditioning" when I moved to 
Canada, discovering that people up here often define themselves in terms of 
what is NOT American, rather than what IS Canadian.  (Luc and Ed, does this 
ring true?)

snip


Greetings,
Yes the concepts of liberty, equality, justice and freedom of religion are 
worthy of respect.  It is sad so few have any for them.


Freedom of religion???   I have met extremely few Americans that actually 
believe that, and most of them I have met are on this list.  To most 
Americans, freedom of religion means that it is okay to be a Quaker or 
Mormon.  Jehovah's Witness is dicey, forget being Pagan.  There are court 
battles going on right now, over the custody of children, the issue:  Mom 
is a Witch, therefore it is the duty of the court to remove the children to 
a family member that is Christian.  And yes, if you really want me to I can 
give specifics.


While I am not Luc or Ed, I did spend my first 35 years in Canada.  Canada 
has its own conditioning, as I suspect each county does.  And yes, much of 
Canada's conditioning is anti American.  This point is brought home to us 
very strongly every time we visit Canada, especially when the subject of 
citizenship comes up.  The fact that we are willing to give up being 
Canadian to have the right to vote where we live is not understood.


If the world had the tolerance and ability to communicate that I find on 
this list, I think we would have a much more peaceful world.  To those who 
do not think that peace is possible, I hold up this list as an example of 
what is possible.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] Indura fabric

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I actually worked with my husband for 4 years, as his assistant.  If he 
were a mechanic, there could be a slight degree of risk of fire, as they 
have set the occasional engine on fire.  He does electronics, so there is 
no risk for him.  In Canada, the company did methanol fracs, and they had a 
serious degree of risk.  So much so that a fire truck and ambulance we 
manditory on location.  Scary stuff.  The company does not do such things 
in Texas.  Since we have been in this industry, with this company for 16 
years, we are well aware of the dangers of the industry, but fire is not 
one of them.


I do believe they will have to rethink these uniforms come summer.  They 
are really heavy weight cotton/polyester and I do believe that problems 
with heat prostration are going to occur.


I am chemically sensitive, and have been fighting to stop my progress along 
those lines.  I am well aware of the damage that 'safe' chemicals cause, I 
live with it.  I do not want my husband to become as sensitive to 
everything as I am, I also don't want the chemicals on me.


As for washing the uniforms, the detergent is acceptable to the 
manufacturers but a tallow soap is not.  This is why I sugested perhaps 
this might work as they tell me not to use it.  I would have to take them 
to a laundromat, as I have a grey water system that waters my gardens.  I 
do not want to eat whatever is in those uniforms!


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:19 AM 1/25/2005, you wrote:

Howdy Kim,


Relative risk is always an interesting issue.  Obliviously you feel that 
the risk of exposure to some unknown chemical(s) is greater than the risk 
of injury by fire.  But on what basis to make such an assumption.
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just pointing out that we all make 
assumptions about risk, often without any basis for the judgment.



Let me present a conundrum.  Assuming that the chemicals in the garment do 
present a risk and should be removed, what is the best removal 
method?  Use tallow soap which is relatively benign, but not as 
effective?  Or a more effective synthetic detergent  which presents a 
greater risk to the environment?

--
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 



---
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Re: [Biofuel] Indura fabric

[Kim & Garth Travis]

say.  I am wondering, if I do everything they say not to, such as washing 
the garments with tallow soap, will I get rid of the chemicals?  There is 
no reason for my hubby to need fire protective gear, he has never been 
involved with a fire in his 16 years with the company.  I will not be 
risking his life in anyway by removing the chemicals.  I will be risking 
him if I don't, especially in the summer in Texas!


If there was any solidarity among the workers, we could fight this.  The 
only ones who have opened their mouths have found their work being 
scrutinized under a fine microscope, if you know what I mean.  There were 
only 2 who cared, besides us.  The general attitude is that the company 
will pay if it harms us, so who cares?


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:41 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:

Kim - I am not the expert...just giving you my
personal experience...but I am focusing on all the
"more environmentally friendly as can be" compounds
and thus the safer alternative that many experts now
consider are the Borax/Borate based fire retardants.

http://www.universalmaterials.com/support/about.html

These guys are in my own backyard.

Regarding your Proban, I read that with cotton fibre
there is a need for a "mordant" in order to "sticky"
the retardent in order embed into the fibre.  I think
that is why the commericial companies use the
chemicals with the big long names.

Also, in my fire supression days, we weighed the fact
that we could get "burnt to the crisp" versus "wearing
the Nomex or other gear for the one week or two weeks"
of wearing the gear.

But to wear it 24/7some other reader may know
more.

Good Luck
Phillip Wolfe


--- Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thank you for the information.  I will dive into it.
>  They used to have
> nomex coveralls for the occasional job that needed
> them, but now they want
> this chemical laden stuff on the guys every day!  I
> have asked at my fire
> department, which I just left being an active
> volunteer firefighter last
> spring, but they didn't know about the hazards of
> this stuff.
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
> At 12:57 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:
> >Kim,
> >
> >This is not the final answer but hopes this helps:
> My
> >buddies and I worked as fire supression support
> >personnel for the US Forest Service.
> >
> >For our clothing, Nomex and Proban were the two
> >dominate treatments for clothing. We always wore
> >protective clothing under the fire retardant
> clothing.
> >   See below for weblinks:
> >
> >If you call Westec, I believe they will inform you
> >that Proban is the treatment compound used in their
> >Indura products. Proban is the commercial name for
> >treatment composed of a compound called
> >"BIS[TETRAKIS(HYDROXYMETHYL)PHOSPHONIUM] SULFATE"
> >
> >Below are weblinks that may help you:
> >
> >http://www.westexinc.com/indura_ultra_soft.htm  =
> >commercial information on the product
> >
> >http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc218.htm
> =
> >...United Nations report
> >
>
>http://www.rhodia-proban.com/press%20releases/PROBAN%20remains%20availabl 
e.pdf#search='on%20tetrakis%20(hydroxymethyl)%20phosphonium%20compounds'

> >= the actual manufacturer of the compounds
> >
>
>http://www.directworkwear.com/ProbanInduraCoveralls.htm
> >= The Essential difference between Proban and
> Indura
> >is that  Proban< >WESTEX a to retain their original flame resistance
> for
> >50 home washes or 25 industrial washes. Indura  FR
> >garments are permanently treated for the life of
> the
> >garments durability.
> >
>
>http://www.chemicalland21.com/arokorhi/specialtychem/finechem/BIS[TETRAKI 
S%28HYDROXYMETHYL%29PHOSPHONIUM]%20SULFATE.htm

> >= a comprehensive overview from a chemical
> engineering
> >point of view
> >
> >http://www.nap.edu/books/0309070473/html/417.html
> >= easier to understand overview
> >
> >My buddy is a deputy fire marshal and I can ask him
> >too.
> >
> >Also there is a movment in the Forest practices to
> use
> >"inert" Borax powders as fire retardants instead of
> >the bromides/ammonia which converts to volatile
> toxic
> >compounds  based fire retardants.
> >
> >See:
> http://www.fseee.org/projects/firecomplaint.htm
>
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RE: [Biofuel] Indura fabric

[Kim & Garth Travis]

unemployed.  This is especially true for immigrants.  The bosses expect us 
to be more grateful and they really get mad if we disturb the peace.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:54 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:

Kim

There is a "right to know" law that requires all companies to make 
available the MSDS sheets on al chemicals used by and in the
company. All he needs to do is to request to see or get a copy of the MSDS 
sheet from the Safety officer are responsible party.
Failure for the company to produce this MSDS is a legal problem for the 
company. I was the plant manager for one of General
Electrics High Voltage Switchgear plants in the US and was very familiar 
with this requirement.



Best Wishes,
Tim F.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Kim & Garth Travis
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 1:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: re: [Biofuel] Indura fabric


Greetings,
How does one do so without getting the husband in trouble?  Politics are a
problem.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:58 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote:

> >Greetings,
> >
> >My husbands company has decided to make all the field personal wear flame
> >resistant uniforms.  It is extremely rare for there to be a fire on
> >location, but some customer has decided to make this another hoop for the
> >company to jump thorugh.  [I am a little perturbed.]
>
>Your best bet is to get an MSDS sheet from the company about the garment.
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Indura fabric

[Kim & Garth Travis]

nomex coveralls for the occasional job that needed them, but now they want 
this chemical laden stuff on the guys every day!  I have asked at my fire 
department, which I just left being an active volunteer firefighter last 
spring, but they didn't know about the hazards of this stuff.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:57 PM 1/24/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

This is not the final answer but hopes this helps: My
buddies and I worked as fire supression support
personnel for the US Forest Service.

For our clothing, Nomex and Proban were the two
dominate treatments for clothing. We always wore
protective clothing under the fire retardant clothing.
  See below for weblinks:

If you call Westec, I believe they will inform you
that Proban is the treatment compound used in their
Indura products. Proban is the commercial name for
treatment composed of a compound called
"BIS[TETRAKIS(HYDROXYMETHYL)PHOSPHONIUM] SULFATE"

Below are weblinks that may help you:

http://www.westexinc.com/indura_ultra_soft.htm  =
commercial information on the product

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc218.htm =
...United Nations report

http://www.rhodia-proban.com/press%20releases/PROBAN%20remains%20available.pdf#search='on%20tetrakis%20(hydroxymethyl)%20phosphonium%20compounds'
= the actual manufacturer of the compounds

http://www.directworkwear.com/ProbanInduraCoveralls.htm
= The Essential difference between Proban and Indura
is that  Proban

re: [Biofuel] Indura fabric

[Kim & Garth Travis]

How does one do so without getting the husband in trouble?  Politics are a 
problem.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 10:58 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote:


>Greetings,
>
>My husbands company has decided to make all the field personal wear flame
>resistant uniforms.  It is extremely rare for there to be a fire on
>location, but some customer has decided to make this another hoop for the
>company to jump thorugh.  [I am a little perturbed.]

Your best bet is to get an MSDS sheet from the company about the garment.


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[Biofuel] Indura fabric

[Kim & Garth Travis]

My husbands company has decided to make all the field personal wear flame 
resistant uniforms.  It is extremely rare for there to be a fire on 
location, but some customer has decided to make this another hoop for the 
company to jump thorugh.  [I am a little perturbed.]


I am having trouble figuring out what is in these uniforms.  My concern is 
what chemicals are going to be on my husbands skin?  Also, we use a grey 
water system, what chemicals are going to wind up on my land?


Is it possible to remove the chemicals from the uniforms by improper, 
according to the instructions given, wash practises?


The uniforms are supplied by Westex Inc.

Has anyone had any experience or information on these uniforms?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

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[Biofuel] (no subject)

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I just had to share this.
Bright Blessings,
Kim


OSLO, Norway There appears to be somewhat of a cultural divide
between Texans and Norwegians.

Residents of the Scandinavian country were taken aback when they saw the 
First Family appear to salute Satan during the inaugural parade

yesterday.

The president and his family were seen raising their right hands and 
extending their index and pinky fingers.


Where Bush is from, that's recognized as a salute to the University
of Texas Longhorns. Fans make the sign and shout "Hook 'em, horns!"
during athletic events.

But overseas, that same gesture is seen as a sign of the devil. And
in Norway the salute is popular among death metal and black metal
groups and fans.

http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=2839285


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RE: Reply: [Biofuel] To Luc: garden talk

[Kim & Garth Travis]

It is also back breaking labor!  I did a small bed, once and decided never 
again.  Now I collect trash in feed bags until I have enough.  Using the 
techniques of earth bag construction, but with trash rather than dirt in 
the bags, I build my garden beds.  My beds are about 2 feet tall, have a 
nice wide ledge to sit on, places to put trellises and I can tie down 
covers for winter.  I have covered them in ferro cement and they work 
great.  The labor to build them was less that what it would have taken to 
double dig.  As an added savings of labor, I don't have to get down on my 
hands and knees to work my beds.  Last year when the rain would not stop, 
my garden did not drown.This is also good for Mother Earth as I don't 
put my trash in the landfill.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:16 AM 1/21/2005, you wrote:

Yes. I few years ago I completly re-conditioned my
garden and applied the double-dig method with raised
beds.  Double-digging is the process of fully digging
up the top layer of a garden bed, removing that layer,
loosening the layer beneath, and then returning the
top layer. This method is  especially effective in
heavy clay areas in my specific region...it gives
roots more room to grow and breathe, and hence
produces healthier, more vigorous plants.


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[Biofuel] Fwd: URGENT ALERT FROM MAYAN ELDERS IN

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Bright Blessings,
Kim




Fw: [SacredRoad Runner] URGENT ALERT FROM MAYAN ELDERS IN
GUATEMALA1/10/05 Importance: High Urgent call from the Mayan elders
of Guatemala 1/10/2005

Through the ancient techniques of divination and tools of prophecy,
the Mayan elders are calling forth to humanity at THIS TIME to pay
closer attention to the messages being sent forth by the mother earth
and to immediately take the actions they have been calling for, to
unite in an effort to bring balance again upon our planet.

The recent destruction that manifested in Indonesia is predicted to
now occur rapidly upon five continents of the earth. This message is
not meant to induce fear, to the contrary, it is a call for bravery
and for action. The elders are concerned about what has been
presented in their recent divinations and they call to all humanity
to warn their leaders and to work very hard at a spiritual level to
prevent the impending destruction.

This message, verified and brought forth by various Mayan elders in
Guatemala, is for all of humanity. The hurricanes in the US and the
earthquake and tsunami in Indonesia have been warnings and we must
now pay attention or the possibilities of floods in Europe, Los
Angeles, earthquakes and other efforts of the mother earth to awaken
us will manifest quickly.

There is a specific call for people around the world to join in
prayer, meditation or whatever method of spirituality one engages in
to unite on January 18th at the time of their local sunset (approx
6:00PM).

This date is (9) Keme according to the sacred Mayan Cholq'ij calendar
(more info on calendar available at: 
http://www.sacredroad.org ) and

has the potential for protecting humanity from disaster.

There will be many major ceremonies in the Mayan communities for this
purpose.

An open invitation is extended to humanity that wish to join the
Mayan people for the Waxa'qib B'atz' ceremonies on February 12th in
Guatemala.

Again, this is a strong message, not meant to drive us to react in
fear, for this will only negatively impact the level of destruction
and our own circumstance.

This is the opportunity for humanity to rise to the occasion and come
together along the strong lines that unite us and overcome the
obstacles that divide us.

Please distribute this message widely. Message issued by Mayan elders
in Guatemala and delivered via: Carlos Barrios, Mayan Ajq'ij,
Antigua, Guatemala Adam Rubel, Co-Director, Saq' Be': Organization
for Mayan and Indigenous Spiritual Studies,
http://www.sacredroad.org

This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Non
Commercial-NoDerivs License. To view a copy of this license, visit
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/ 


or send a letter to Creative Commons, 559 Nathan Abbott Way,
Stanford, California 94305, USA. Saq' Be': Organization for Mayan and
Indigenous Spiritual Studies www.SacredRoad.org
http://www.sacredroad.org/   505.466.4044

Bringing young adults and others together with ancient traditions for
cultural preservation and to foster a deeper spiritual, ecological
and communal awareness so as to plant the seeds for a more harmonious
future.


--- End forwarded message ---


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Re: [Biofuel] Compost with sawdust and LOF.

[Kim & Garth Travis]

get from my table saw in my compost.  Mine is used in our toilet buckets 
first, but it must be mixed with something that has a little more fiber or 
it compacts.  Compaction in a compost pile means no oxygen, which is a 
problem.  Mix some grass, well mulched into the mix and it should work better.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:06 AM 1/2/2005, you wrote:

Hi Keith ;

Since I plan on making lots of compost from wood, I
thought I would start experimenting with the abundant
and free sawdust from next door.

I read the pages on JtF, but none comes close to my
situation.  The sawdust is REALLY fine, like blowing
sand.  I will use a fly screen to keep it from coming
out the container holes.  It should compost quickly
because particle size is so small, if I can keep it
aerated.

Could you recommend a mix ratio and procedure only
using sawdust and LOF to start?  I am using a 10 gal
pail, turn it every day, and I get a strong smell of
ammonia after a few days.  Not too much heat at all,
only a little.

Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand




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Re: [Biofuel] New Car

[Kim & Garth Travis]

While a little bit of sweat won't melt me, the heat we get will cause heart 
attacks and other problems.  Being too warm when driving can also cause one 
to be less attentive to the road, a definite danger for everyone that has 
to share the road with you.  My home is not built to withstand temperature 
of 116 or 117, which we don't get every year.  When we do, I retreat to the 
car if I need to.  Heat prostration kills people here every year.  My home 
is always too warm for an emergency cool down, as I keep it at 80 in the 
summer.  If I work too hard, physically and recognize that I have over 
heated, I head for my car as a quick cool down.  The little bit of energy I 
use to have my AC in my car does not compare to what I would use if I 
cooled the house to that degree.


As to wearing shorts and short sleeves, are you kidding?  One round of 
melanoma was more than enough.  The sun never sees my skin.  Not even 
through tinted glass.


Back in the days of my youth when we drove big boats for cars, we 
discovered that open windows really cut your mileage.  Open windows mess up 
the aerodynamics of the car, and while I don't have figures, I do know that 
I can't tell if I have been running the AC or not, from my mileage in my Honda.


I am aware of the harmful gases used in AC. I am not an expert on coolants, 
but the new systems are suppose to be an improvement over the old. Once I 
figure out how to use zeolite to cool my home, I will make one for my 
car.  One step at a time, in the right direction, as an example of living a 
relatively comfortable life that is going to eventually be completely 
sustainable is better than killing myself by being in too much of a rush.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:35 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote:

Kim,

I understand that Texas is not optional. If it were, we wouldn't have had 
a president from there the past four years, or the next four, as it 
probably would have been ceded back to Mexico decades ago. Probably a 
felony charge if anyone were to propose giving it back now, what with the 
way Bozo is having all laws rewritten at record pace.


AC wasn't listed. It's a waste of fuel (as is a lead foot) and maintenance 
monies. As well, unless the refrigerant is a HC replacement, the coolant 
remains a contributor to ozone depletion and/or is a potent greenhouse gas 
contributor.


(Note: First thing I did in '86 when I bought a new Golf in central 
Florida was have it driven back to the shop, the compressor disconnected, 
the refrigerant vacuumed out and ordered a new belt so that I could remove 
the compressor and reduce engine drag. Nothing crazy about it. It's called 
energy and ozone conscious. Mind you Florida is not exactly located in a 
sub-arctic climate.)


Sustainable you want? AC is not. Wear shorts, loose blouses and keep the 
console's fan motor in good repair.


You may call that a matter of personal opinion if you wish. I and tens of 
millions of others find it to be supportable as a matter of fact. I don't 
believe that there has ever been a documented case of b--t cheeks fusing 
together as a result of a little sweat.


As for balance? That's often found in doing nothing. It's the mere act of 
humans fulfilling their wants (sometimes needs) that creates the need for 
"balance," or "counter-balance" as the case may be. Isn't sugar cane a bit 
more durable and regional in Texas than stevia? Nothing wrong with sugar, 
if used in moderation, unlike the manner most westerners consume it. 
Stockpile stevia in the fall and maybe keep a pot or two alive over winter 
for next season's propigation.


"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." 
Unfortunately, that's completely  untrue. Often an action puts into motion 
an irreversible momentum that can never be recovered from. Tell the polar 
bear or the Inuit that the action of burning fossil fuels at break-neck 
speed is equal to their starvation/extinction.


Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New Car


Pretty intensive list, Todd.  I don't see the air conditioning listed.  I 
do live in Texas and that is not optional.


As for the grow lights, there are temporary until the full green house is 
done.  Stevia dies with less than 14 hours of sunlight.  I think the grow 
lights are better than the transport from South America, where it grows 
naturally.  Isn't it always a question of balance?


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:26 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote:

Kim,

Any authorized VW repair island can fix an '86 Dub just as well as a 
mechanic specializing in diesel Dubs 1,000 miles distant from your home. 
While the rules of rebuild warranty are a bit different from factory 
warranties, that doesn't mean 

Re: [Biofuel] Electric Bill (was New Car)

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Actually I  changed out all my fixtures last year and really noticed a 
savings.  I am only running 2 ballasts this year, not 4, but every little 
bit helps.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 04:53 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote:

Hi Daryl and Kim ;

> Wouldn't hurt to look into T8 or T5 fluorescents
> though for your grow-lighting,
> especially if they are being used for hours a day.
> Efficiency advances in the past
> few years have been pretty impressive.  I think the
> T5s require advanced ballasts,
> but the T8s can be a straight tube swap depending on
> the fixtures.

Please be careful about the ballast when applying
flourescent lighting in energy saving situations.  The
old style transformer ballast in general wastes as
much energy as is delivered to the lamp.  In other
words, for a 20 watt flourescent, the ballast wastes
20 watts for a total consumption of 40 watts.

The new switching ballasts waste less than 1 watt for
20 watt flourescent.  You can tell the difference by
the weight : the transformer ballast weighs about a
pound, and the switching ballast weighs just a few
ounces.

Any time anyone is buying new fixtures, I always
recommend going with the new electronic switching
ballasts.

Best Regards,

Peter G.
Thailand





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Re: [Biofuel] Electric Bill (was New Car)

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Yes we are still working towards off grid.  I am very pleased with the 
numbers especially since I was using my table saw and other heavy tools for 
a bit that month.  Wind energy is of major interest to us.


Stevia dies at about 40F and even if kept warm, will die if it does not get 
enough light.  We do use for sweetener for all beverages here and we make 
our own soft drinks with it and natural ingrediants.  It has a wonderful 
side effect of slightly lowering blood pressure, which is nice.  I also use 
the raw leaves to kill sugar cravings, which all of us get once in a blue 
moon, at least.  I am trying to keep my plants very healthy this year so I 
can take cuttings in the spring.  I have an extensive waiting list of 
people that want plants.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:21 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote:

Hi Kim,
I think you're doing well.  Still working toward severing the grid 
connection to
save the trees?  Sounds like you're making progress.  Averaging about 16 
kWhs/day.
You are now in the range where you have some viable off-grid 
options.  Generator
set for starters, run a couple of times a day with a battery bank and 
inverter
seems reasonable.  Eventually, maybe a wind turbine or photovoltaics if 
local wind

or insolation justify the investment.

Wouldn't hurt to look into T8 or T5 fluorescents though for your 
grow-lighting,
especially if they are being used for hours a day.  Efficiency advances in 
the past
few years have been pretty impressive.  I think the T5s require advanced 
ballasts,

but the T8s can be a straight tube swap depending on the fixtures.

Do you use the stevia for anything other than a sweetener?  Grew a bit 
here this
summer as a curiosity.  Definitely froze it up last week in the unheated 
seasonal

greenhouse though.

Darryl

Kim wrote:



> Last months electric bill was down to $48.4 using
> 477 kwh.  Considering that I have to use grow lights to keep my stevia and
> other tropicals healthy during the short day, I think this is doing rather
> well.

--
Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?


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Re: [Biofuel] New Car

[Kim & Garth Travis]

do live in Texas and that is not optional.

As for the grow lights, there are temporary until the full green house is 
done.  Stevia dies with less than 14 hours of sunlight.  I think the grow 
lights are better than the transport from South America, where it grows 
naturally.  Isn't it always a question of balance?


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:26 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote:

Kim,

Any authorized VW repair island can fix an '86 Dub just as well as a 
mechanic specializing in diesel Dubs 1,000 miles distant from your home. 
While the rules of rebuild warranty are a bit different from factory 
warranties, that doesn't mean that repairs ("if" needed) can't be 
accomplished at some distance from the mechanic that did the original rebuild.


As for a $7,000 price tag on a restore/rebuild? We actually calculate the 
cost around $6,000, including paint, rust-proofing, wind-screen 
reinstallations and new weather stripping. That also includes a rebuilt 
motor (non-turbo, mechanical lifters) and transmission, new clutch, new 
front and rear struts, brakes, wheel bearings, flushed coolant and heater 
cores and electrical harness if needed.  I think you could get a pair of 
bucket seats and rear seats reupholstered with the paltry $1,000 left 
over. Maybe they'd throw in a pair of fuzzy dice for free?


As to your need for grow lights? Uh.is that "sustainable?"

If they're mandatory, you might care to look at some of the T-5 
lamps/fixtures that are available now in full spectrum. They're starting 
to make their way out of the new-construction/retrofit markets and into 
the greenhouse circuit. Darned things will half-blind a mammal but plants 
are suppposed to luv 'em. They're considerably less energy hogs than the 
greenhouse industry norms up to this point.


Todd Swearingen


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Re: [Biofuel] New Car

[Kim & Garth Travis]

If I lived any where near you, I would definitely follow your 
plan.  However, the towing bill to get my vehicle back to the mechanic, if 
it did break, would eat up all the savings.  I will not have my mechanic 
for another 3 years, and the savings on the car wouldn't be enough to get 
him home earlier.  Does that $7000.00 you are quoting cover the 
reupholstering that would be needed as well?  In the Texas heat, the 
cushions on the seats wear our real fast and old vehicles down here are 
real uncomfortable unless you strip them and rebuild.  Bodies rust, very 
quickly from the high humidity and salt content in all the water and 
environment, so I assume a good paint job is extra.  I have several friends 
who would like a diesel and can not afford a new one.  They may be 
interested.  However, the banks down here will not finance a vehicle over 
10 years old.


And actually, the car is closer to 2/3 of the mortgage on this place.  But 
I only finaced the land, no house payment.  I have built the place cash, 
and yes, my walk in fridge/freezer will be done by the end of 2006.  I am 
still working on many design elements, so I am not sure exactly what I want 
for many of my projects.  Last months electric bill was down to $48.4 using 
477 kwh.  Considering that I have to use grow lights to keep my stevia and 
other tropicals healthy during the short day, I think this is doing rather 
well.


Bright Blessings,
Kim



At 09:09 PM 12/29/2004, you wrote:

Hellow Kim,

Sounds as if you're dead set on getting this car.

If you want to reconsider before Friday, I know a jolly good VW diesel 
mechanic who's second favorite love is putting rebuilt Dubs back on the 
road. He's presently working on exchanging a sodden gas block with a turbo 
diesel in his fiance's Jetta. He put a largely rebuilt Golf on the road 
this summer for a close friend of mine. I probably feel about her security 
the same way your husband feels about yours, which says a lot as to how 
good his work is. It's done close to 20,000 miles in five months with only 
a minor rear wheel bearing blip.


I happen to know a peculiar bird who's got three Golfs sitting in the 
wings waiting to be stripped and rebuilt.


I just hate to see someone drop a third of a mortgage on a horseless 
carriage. Saving ~$13,000 goes a long way towards photovoltaic, thermal 
collectors and a wind turbine - not to mention the super-insulated, 
walk-in, solar-fired, freezer/refrigerator that you've had a yen for.


Todd Swearingen

----- Original Message - From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New Car



Greetings Todd,

As you stated yourself, IF in capital letters, I knew a decent mechanic. 
I know a lot of rip off artists, quasi capable of oil change high charge 
ones but no one I would trust.  I have watched too many friends try going 
the route of the rebuild to even think of going there.  When one lives in 
the middle of nowhere, this option can be very tough.  My car has to be 
super dependable.  I travel the highway at night and there are lots of 
areas where there is no cell phone coverage, if I did carry one.


The only reason I am getting a new car now, is that I want a diesel.  I 
know that older does not mean DOA.  I am currently driving a 1992 Honda 
that I am selling to a very close friend.  My capital cost on that car 
has been less than $1000/year.  I hope to keep the Golf long enough to 
match that number.  The only reason I bought a new car in 1992, was that 
my previous one was black with no AC and I moved from Edmonton, Canada to 
Texas.  A change in vehicle was required.  I buy new, take good care of 
the vehicle and try to wear it out.  Hubby will be retired before this 
vehicle is done with, so I will have my own mechanic to keep things going.


I want a 4 door car, my Mom comes to visit and she no longer fits in the 
back seat of a 2 door.  At 77, I don't expect her to.  The back seat of 
the Golf is nice and comfortable.


Yes, the car is fully loaded with all kinds of electronic gadgets.  And 
yes, I do know from my experience with my Honda that they will quit 
working at about 100,000 miles.  Fully loaded, sun roof, heated seats, 
[why this option in Texas is beyond me] CD player, ad nauseam the car is 
19,585.  No interest, I am paying cash.  This price is only good until 
Friday morning, next week it is back at sticker price.  That inventory 
tax can help one buy a car at a good deal, but there is not much 
selection when it come to color.


I used to participate in Parking lot racing in Canada, years ago and I 
love rack and pinion steering.  I have a truck for driving on back roads 
and in the field.  I am not putting a trailer hitch on this car, like the 
Honda had.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:00 PM 12/28/2004, you wrote:

Kim,

I don't believe VW offers t

Re: [Biofuel] People of Good Will

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am lighting a candle on my altar for you and yours.  May the energy I am 
sending help lighten your load.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:28 PM 12/29/2004, you wrote:
Our household is in mourning, we have not lacked for tears these past few 
weeks.


A month ago my wife's mother died after a year of ups and downs and time 
in and out
of hospital.  Her passing was peaceful, and her life was long and 
full.  She raised
five children in trying circumstances.  She left no doubt that I was 
welcomed into
her family.  Even in her waning days she brought comfort to others.  I 
will miss
her smile, her good nature, her grace in accepting us for who we are and 
life for

what it is.

Yesterday, I had the sad honour of being a pall-bearer for a friend and past
colleague.  Brian was 48, and in my opinion a genius.  However, he 
eschewed fortune
and fame that I am sure he could have obtained in favour of raising a 
family (not
genetically his own).  Brian was spiritual without being overtly 
religious.  While

he suffered from colitis, it was requested that donations in his memory go to
causes dear to his heart, education in Belize and a summer camp intended 
to instill
spiritual values.  Brian was one who truly supported me in my 
investigation of
biodiesel, probing the underbelly of the Hydrogen Economy and other 
pursuits.


He died less than 24 hours after being released from hospital after 
"successful"
surgery and 3 days before Christmas.  The coroner has not determined a 
cause of
death after an autopsy, and an inquest is now expected.  I will miss his 
curiosity,

his enthusiasm, his guiding questions and his support.

These are two people who embodied "good will" in my experience.  Ordinary 
in many

respects, yet so special to those close to them.

The loss of life caused by the earthquakes and tsunamis and their 
after-effects
around the Indian Ocean are beyond my comprehension.  We will be making a 
donation
to the Red Cross today in the hope that it will help in some small way 
after this

catastrophe.  Mostly because we can't imagine people of good will not doing
something in response.  Because even small acts are better than inaction.

At times like these I truly wonder if our efforts to improve our world and 
the lot

of others (and even ourselves) serve any real purpose in the face of nature's
caprices and the works of evil that remain evident about us.  Today I am 
tired in
spirit as well as body.  Even the love of those around me brings little 
solace.  It
is anger that provides my energy today.  Perhaps with resolve I will yet 
harness
that anger to productive use, to cut through the fog of despair that 
shrouds even
the sky now, as though it empathizes.  (More likely, I'm just too miserly 
to waste

even anger.)

I find myself grateful to the community on this list for continually 
showing me
that there are still so many people of good will that also strive for a 
better
world (improving this one) in their own ways.  Thank you all for sharing 
your good

will.

Wishing strength to us all, in all the good we try to do through trying times,

Darryl McMahon

--
Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?


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Re: [Biofuel] New Car

[Kim & Garth Travis]

As you stated yourself, IF in capital letters, I knew a decent mechanic.  I 
know a lot of rip off artists, quasi capable of oil change high charge ones 
but no one I would trust.  I have watched too many friends try going the 
route of the rebuild to even think of going there.  When one lives in the 
middle of nowhere, this option can be very tough.  My car has to be super 
dependable.  I travel the highway at night and there are lots of areas 
where there is no cell phone coverage, if I did carry one.


The only reason I am getting a new car now, is that I want a diesel.  I 
know that older does not mean DOA.  I am currently driving a 1992 Honda 
that I am selling to a very close friend.  My capital cost on that car has 
been less than $1000/year.  I hope to keep the Golf long enough to match 
that number.  The only reason I bought a new car in 1992, was that my 
previous one was black with no AC and I moved from Edmonton, Canada to 
Texas.  A change in vehicle was required.  I buy new, take good care of the 
vehicle and try to wear it out.  Hubby will be retired before this vehicle 
is done with, so I will have my own mechanic to keep things going.


I want a 4 door car, my Mom comes to visit and she no longer fits in the 
back seat of a 2 door.  At 77, I don't expect her to.  The back seat of the 
Golf is nice and comfortable.


Yes, the car is fully loaded with all kinds of electronic gadgets.  And 
yes, I do know from my experience with my Honda that they will quit working 
at about 100,000 miles.  Fully loaded, sun roof, heated seats, [why this 
option in Texas is beyond me] CD player, ad nauseam the car is 19,585.  No 
interest, I am paying cash.  This price is only good until Friday morning, 
next week it is back at sticker price.  That inventory tax can help one buy 
a car at a good deal, but there is not much selection when it come to color.


I used to participate in Parking lot racing in Canada, years ago and I love 
rack and pinion steering.  I have a truck for driving on back roads and in 
the field.  I am not putting a trailer hitch on this car, like the Honda had.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:00 PM 12/28/2004, you wrote:

Kim,

I don't believe VW offers the TDI in a GL 2-door package. You'll have to 
go 4-door. Diesel option runs ~$1,400.


Also, there is no diesel option other than turbo, unlike years past where 
turbo/non-turbo was an option.


Comes with a cat. You might want to ask about specific diesel fuel 
requirements (ultra-low sulfur, low sulfur, etc.) to preserve the life of 
the cat.


MSRP + tax (7%), tag & title for a bare bones bucket of bolts would be 
~$19,000. That includes the discount for present VW owners. Doesn't take 
into consideration any specific dealer incentives.


About the only things I would say in favor of a newer model is that they 
have air bags and 4-wheel-disc ABS brakes. Way too many 
electric-remote-this-and-thats which will start to go belly up around the 
100,000 mile mark (or sooner). Certainly I'm no fan of the 
hydraulic-assist, rack and pinion steering. Too much opportunity for 
over-steer in an adverse situation, experienced drivers or not.


Were it me, and I had a qualified VW diesel mechanic in my stable of 
friends (still paying him or her the going rate) I'd rebuild an '85 or '86 
from scratch. There are a lot of 'em out there that have no rust and still 
run. Put in a rebuilt engine and you've got a spare that can be turned 
into a backup generator. No worries about the automatic this-and-thats on 
older models. Same fuel economy as a new model.


Just depends if you have the cash up front to pour into a restore/rebuild 
or if the monthly payments (hopefully a super low APR) fit your bank 
account better.


Patience could save you ~$13,000 and a lot of future interests and 
maintenance costs. Besides, newer doesn't necessarily mean better and 
older doesn't necessarily mean "DOA."


Todd Swearingen


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[Biofuel] New Car

[Kim & Garth Travis]

While I know some of you think that anyone who buys a new car is nuts, some 
of us just don't have the time to play back yard mechanic.  I learned long 
ago that hiring someone to do the kind of work that needs to be done with 
an older car means bankruptcy.  The old adage of if you want it done right 
do it yourself is really true of keeping cars running.  Building a 
sustainable farm takes all my time.


That said, My Dear Husband would like to know what the opinion of the 2005 
Volkswagon Golf TDI is?  He is buying me one this Friday and we hope to run 
biodiesel in it after it is off warranty.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] god problems (see, got rid of titration)

[Kim & Garth Travis]

As a long time member of the biofuels list, [I took a break then came back] 
I have found this list to be different, very different.  We can discuss 
differences and not fight!  We do not divide into camps and start wars.  We 
came to learn from each other and we do learn, not just biofuels.  It is a 
joy to have a place where different spiritualities can be discussed.  No 
one is saying you must believe as I believe.  Different people have been 
kind enough to share what they believe or live.  My thanks to all who have 
done so.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:10 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:

I dressed as Elvis to my Uncle Harry's wedding because Uncle Harry was so
damm cool.  The preacher threw me out.  Said I was sacreligeous.  I looked
at him and said, "I bet you can't dance." and left.

I came looking for biofuels and found god?  Notice the little g?

I am walking the way I walk and am just looking for some biofuel action.
Just looking for biofuels.  Pretty soon this will divide into camps and the
fighting begins.  Never fails.

You know it as well as I do.

How about some biofuel?

Bill


- Original Message -
From: "Mel Riser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Titration problems


> If you don't titrate right you can't get to heaven? See it is relevant.
>
> It's all in the doing, not in the religion.
>
> All religions can get you to god, if "titrated" correctly.
>
> Wait...wait.. you're gonna come back with a my way or no way line right?
>
>

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Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Martin's Job

[Kim & Garth Travis]

the tax deduction.  So sorry I explained it wrong.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:09 PM 12/15/2004, you wrote:
Why wait ? You can send someone a personal gift any time you want and the 
Empire has nothing to say about it. Don't make it out to JTF make it out 
to Keith personally (with his approval of course ) :-)

Luc
- Original Message - From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:49 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Martin's Job



Greetings,

I am not sure how far along Keith is, but I do know he is in the process 
of becoming a charitable organization that can accept donations on a tax 
free basis.  If anyone was thinking of giving heartily, perhaps we might 
be able to give a little more if we just wait until we can have the tax 
advantage.  I am not sure if Keith could channel the money to Martin or 
not, but I have a problem with giving money to the government and prefer 
to donate in this manner.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:22 AM 12/15/2004, you wrote:


Also,  I  don't know how I managed not to include Keith and Journey To
Forever  in  the  mail.   Chalk  it  down  to lack of sleep and health
concerns at the moment.

I believe there are some two thousand odd members of the list which is
why I proposed a dollar a person but there are not two thousand people
posting.  As  in  the  rest of life some of us will apparently have to
carry  the  others  but  it  is  something  to  which  we  ought to be
accustomed.  There  have  been  many carrying me on and off for a long
time,  Keith  and  Martin not the least among them. It is high time we
lived up to what I at least consider our responsibilities.

As  there  has been no response yet from Martin or Keith I am assuming
this  is  OK  with  them  so anyone wanting to contribute to this very
worthy  effort  could  just  drop  me an email at my own address and I
would  respond  with  my mailing address. I will also keep a list with
the name, email and amount of each donor and give it to both Keith and
Martin  so  if  anyone wants to check up on me they could email either
Keith  or  Martin and would know that their donation had been properly
distributed  and  none kept by me or misappropriated in any way.  And,
if   it   would   be   possible  US  currency would be appreciated.  I
believe  that  would  be  the  easiest and most efficient path, but no
donation would be denied.

If  the  list  is  willing we can proceed.  I am hoping that there are
more  than  half  a dozen or so of us willing to help financially with
the  truly  worthy  effort.  It is such a small thing but with so much
potential.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
-


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Re[2]: [Biofuel] Martin's Job

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am not sure how far along Keith is, but I do know he is in the process of 
becoming a charitable organization that can accept donations on a tax free 
basis.  If anyone was thinking of giving heartily, perhaps we might be able 
to give a little more if we just wait until we can have the tax 
advantage.  I am not sure if Keith could channel the money to Martin or 
not, but I have a problem with giving money to the government and prefer to 
donate in this manner.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:22 AM 12/15/2004, you wrote:


Also,  I  don't know how I managed not to include Keith and Journey To
Forever  in  the  mail.   Chalk  it  down  to lack of sleep and health
concerns at the moment.

I believe there are some two thousand odd members of the list which is
why I proposed a dollar a person but there are not two thousand people
posting.  As  in  the  rest of life some of us will apparently have to
carry  the  others  but  it  is  something  to  which  we  ought to be
accustomed.  There  have  been  many carrying me on and off for a long
time,  Keith  and  Martin not the least among them. It is high time we
lived up to what I at least consider our responsibilities.

As  there  has been no response yet from Martin or Keith I am assuming
this  is  OK  with  them  so anyone wanting to contribute to this very
worthy  effort  could  just  drop  me an email at my own address and I
would  respond  with  my mailing address. I will also keep a list with
the name, email and amount of each donor and give it to both Keith and
Martin  so  if  anyone wants to check up on me they could email either
Keith  or  Martin and would know that their donation had been properly
distributed  and  none kept by me or misappropriated in any way.  And,
if   it   would   be   possible  US  currency would be appreciated.  I
believe  that  would  be  the  easiest and most efficient path, but no
donation would be denied.

If  the  list  is  willing we can proceed.  I am hoping that there are
more  than  half  a dozen or so of us willing to help financially with
the  truly  worthy  effort.  It is such a small thing but with so much
potential.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
-


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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Water Heater Revisited

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I don't know how to make a pdf, but I do have it as a word perfect file.  I 
also have all the diagrams as gifs.  Would you like me to send them.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:58 AM 11/16/2004, you wrote:

Hallo Folks,

I  have been trying to load this page for half an hour but it will not
load:

http://www.green-trust.org/2000/solar/sunontap/page9.htm

Can  anyone load the thing and send it to me or load it, convert it to
a .pdf and send it to me?  Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you kindly.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
--
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
Mitglied-Team AMIGA
ICQ: 22211253-Gustli

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope,
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones,
without signposts.
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen,
da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Methane was Re: [Biofuel] solar hot water

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Now for the rest of the system.  Since we can have some real cloudy 
periods, [I haven't seen the sun for 5 days now] I need an on demand hot 
water heater to back up my solar.  For now I need to run it on propane, but 
I definitely want to install my methane digester to run it in the future.


Does anyone have experience with running any particular brand of on demand 
hot water heaters on methane?  Or just any experience with on demand hot 
water heaters, gas powered not electric?


Thanks and Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] solar hot water

[Kim & Garth Travis]

article has changed slightly, the one I had starts of page 2 of this one, 
but more importantly, there was a large schematic of the whole thing.  This 
has disappeared.  Any ideas on how I can find the original article?


Bright Blessings,
Kim


SUN ON TAP

The Best We Know
by Frederic S. Langa

You Can Cut Hot Water Bill By Two-Thirds... With A Fine-Tuned Passive 
Solar Heater


I like that one too. It's lifted from Rodale's New Shelter - July/August 1981.

Here you go:

http://www.green-trust.org/2000/solar/sunontap/Default.htm

Not only that but Steve's site search gave you the wrong url. What a mess! :-(

Download it while the going's good.

Regards

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] solar hot water

[Kim & Garth Travis]

page can not be displayed.  I wonder if it has changed 
again. 
http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/2000/solar/sunontap/page2.htm 
I recognize the blurb as being part of the article that had the plans in it.


Thanks for the help in trying to locate this article.

BB, Kim


At 09:55 AM 11/15/2004, you wrote:

It really is a case of "ask and ye shall receive" :)
http://www.green-trust.org/main.htm new URL for webconx.com

Luc
- Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] solar hot water



>Greetings,


Well I had planned on working on my farm first, then doing my biofuels 
next.  First I have an argument with the power company and now, my hot 
water heater died.  Does anyone have a favorite solar hot water 
site?  The one I really liked a webconx is gone.
What was the url Kim? Probably I can find it for you. Steve seems to 
change his urls like other people change their underwear, and he doesn't 
leave jump links. I've had to change all his urls at our site six times 
now, so probably I'm getting good at it. :-(

Regards
Keith



Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] solar hot water

[Kim & Garth Travis]

BB, Kim

At 10:29 AM 11/15/2004, you wrote:

Building your own?
Kirk
--- Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Well I had planned on working on my farm first, then
> doing my biofuels
> next.  First I have an argument with the power
> company and now, my hot
> water heater died.  Does anyone have a favorite
> solar hot water site?  The
> one I really liked a webconx is gone.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
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>




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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com


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Re: [Biofuel] solar hot water

[Kim & Garth Travis]

This is the url I have, it is from May of 2001.  I had downloaded the 
article, but that computer crashed and lost it.  I am learning that 
sometimes hard copy is a good idea.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

http://www.webconx.com/2000/solar/solar.htm


What was the url Kim? Probably I can find it for you. Steve seems to 
change his urls like other people change their underwear, and he doesn't 
leave jump links. I've had to change all his urls at our site six times 
now, so probably I'm getting good at it. :-(


Regards

Keith


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[Biofuel] solar hot water

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Well I had planned on working on my farm first, then doing my biofuels 
next.  First I have an argument with the power company and now, my hot 
water heater died.  Does anyone have a favorite solar hot water site?  The 
one I really liked a webconx is gone.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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[Biofuel] The Other People

[Kim & Garth Travis]

who wanted to read it.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

We Are the Other People
by Oberon Zell


"Ding-dong!" goes the doorbell. Is it Avon calling? Or perhaps Ed McMahon 
with my three million dollars? No, it's Yahweh's Witlesses again, just 
wanting to have a nice little chat about the Bible...::

Boy, did they ever come to the wrong house!  So we invite them in:

"Enter freely and of your own will..." (Hey, it's Sunday morning, nothing 
much going on, why not have a little entertainment?)  Diane and I amuse 
ourselves watching their expressions as they check out the living room: 
great horned owl on the back of my chair; ceremonial masks and medicine 
skulls of dragons and unicorns on the wall; crystals, wands, staffs, 
swords; lots of Goddess figures and several altars; boa constrictors draped 
in amorous embrace over the elk horn; white doves sitting in the hanging 
planters; cats and weasels underfoot; iron dragon snorting steam atop the 
wood stove; posters and paintings of wizards and dinosaurs and witchy 
women, some proudly naked; sculptures of mythological beasties and lots 
more dinosaurs; warp six on the star-filled viewscreen of my computer; a 
five-foot model of the USS Enterprise and the skeleton of a plesiosaur 
hanging from the ceiling; very, very many books, most of them dealing with 
obviously weird subjects... To say nothing of the great horned owl perched 
on the back of my chair and the

Unicorn grazing in the front yard. You know; early Addams Family decor.

:   And then, of course, it being late in the morning, you can expect 
Morning Glory to come wandering out naked, looking for her wake-up cup of 
tea. Morning Glory naked is a truly impressive sight, and the Witlesses 
look as if she'd set titties on stun as they stand immobilized, hands 
clasped over their genitals. With the stage set and all the actors in 
place, the show is ready to begin.

:
:   Their mission, of course, it to save our heathen souls by turning us on 
to "The Word of the Lord" - their Bible. I guess they figure some of us 
just haven't heard about it yet, and we're all eagerly awaiting their 
joyous tidings of personal salvation through giving our rational faculties 
to Jesus. Every time they come around, I look forward to trying out a new 
riposte. Sure, it may be cruel and sadistic of me, but hey, I didn't call 
them up and ask them to come over; they entered at their own risk!

:
:   This time should be pretty good. After letting them run off their basic 
rap while lovely Morning Glory serves us all hot herb tea, I innocently 
remark: "But none of that applies to us. We have no need for salvation 
because we don't have original sin. We are the Other People."

:
:   "Hunh? What?" they reply eloquently. It's clear they've never heard 
this one before.

:
:   "Right," I say. "It's all in your Bible." And I proceed to tell them 
the story, using their own book for reference:

:
:   Genesis 1:26 - The [Elohim] said, "Let us make humanity in our own 
image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of 
the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild beasts and all the 
reptiles that crawl upon the earth."

:
:   Elohim is a plural word, including male and female, and should properly 
be translated "Gods" or "Pantheon."

:
:   27 The Gods created humanity in the image of themselves, In the image 
of the Gods they created them, Male and Female they created them.
:   28 The Gods blessed them, saying to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill 
the earth and conquer it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of 
heaven and all living animals on the earth."

:
:   Now clearly, here we are talking about the original creation of the 
human species: male and female. All the animals,plants, etc. have all been 
created in previous verses. This is before the Garden of Eden, and Yahweh 
is not mentioned as the creator of these people. The next chapter talks 
about how Yahweh, an individual member of the Pantheon, goes about 
assembling his own special little botanical and zoological Garden in Eden, 
and making his own little man to inhabit it:

:
:   Gen 2:7 - Yahweh God fashioned a man of dust from the soil. Then he 
breathed into his nostrils a breath of life, and thus the man became a 
living being.
:   8 Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden which is in the east, and there 
he put the man he had fashioned.
:   9 Yahweh God caused to spring up from the soil every kind of tree, 
enticing to look at and good to eat, with the tree of life and the tree of 
the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden.
:   15 Yahweh God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden to 
cultivate and take care of it.

:
Now this next is crucial: note Yahweh's precise words:

   16 Then Yahweh God gave the man this admonition, "You may eat indeed of 
all the trees in the garden.
   17 Nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are 
not to eat, for on the day you eat of it you shall mos

[Biofuel] Knowledge vs faith

[Kim & Garth Travis]

All this discussion of religion seems rather pointless, to me.  If we are 
talking about knowledge, there is a basic foundation to judge what is being 
said.  As soon as we get into the realm of faith and belief, there are no 
standards to judge by as nothing can be proved.  This does not mean that 
one can not have a spiritual life that is rational.  Revering Mother Nature 
is rational, as I can prove that Nature does exist.  The problem comes when 
one wants to go beyond what is provable to discuss how the provable came 
into existence.  I see no reason to ever go there, just take care of what 
we can see and it is a full lifetime.  If God did create it, then how can 
he damn someone who is taking care of his creation?  If he did not create 
it, then we have taken care of our world, so that others don't have to 
suffer needlessly.  I am used to calling this win/win.

For those who want to insist that the Bible should be followed by all 
people, I am posting an article a friend wrote after intense Bible 
study.  Enjoy.  Also, if there are any Jehovah's Witnesses on this list, I 
apologize for the tone of the article.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
Attachment converted: Handmade:The Other People.txt (TEXT/TBB6) (000B3BD6)
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Re: off topic flame: Re: [Biofuel] 38 short hours to go

[Kim & Garth Travis]

 I heard Republicans on NPR this morning
predicting a "permanent majority" in Congress, with the suggestion of
perpetually Republican presidents.  I hope that they keep thinking that
way, and give Bush enough rope to hang himself.

Brian



Unfortunately, while he is hanging himself, he will destroy the lives of 
those of us that have to live with his policies.  How will Mother Earth 
ever recover from 4 more years of increasing abuse?


Bright Blessings,
Kim 


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RE: [Biofuel] C.Difficile Epidemic in Quebec

[Kim & Garth Travis]

probiotics in a refined form when they are available, in a much better 
variety straight from Mother Nature?  Kefir grains are probiotics, and they 
don't cost money.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:18 AM 10/27/2004, you wrote:

Probiotics are something I researched heavily about 6 months ago, when I
began using what I have found to be by far the best available. Here is one
link which explains the product well in summary form, and there are many
sites which explain the homeostatic soil organism concept at extreme
detail..The probiotic I am referring to is called Primal Defense, made by
"Garden of Life"...visit http://www.risingstarlc.com/pdindex.htm


Also, regarding flu epidemics, shortages of vaccines, and the foolishness of
using vaccines period, visit
http://www.mercola.com/2004/oct/20/flu_vaccine.htm

Regards,
Dan Volker

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Legal Eagle
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:13 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] C.Difficile Epidemic in Quebec
>
> Muchas Gracias Kim;
>
> After having a peruse I may even want to give it a link in
> the Oragnics Section of my site or something. We all need to
> seek out ways to better our health. No one is going to avoid
> dying, but we sure can have a good and long quality of life though.
> Luc
> PS:Maybe I should be thinking of adding a section only for
> probiotics. I already have an article on it, but sources I do
> not have.Hmmm, worth a thought.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] C.Difficile Epidemic in Quebec
>
>
> > Wonderful advice Luc.  I would add that kefir taken daily really
> > promotes good health.  Kefir grains really are Mother Nature's best
> > defence for health.  The nice part, is that one aquires
> grains just by
> > paying the shipping, then in a couple of weeks, you have lots of
> > grains to share with family and friends.  Learn more at:
> > http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html
> >
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Kim
> >
> > At 07:52 AM 10/27/2004, you wrote:
> >>http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2004/10/26/cdiffici
> le_queplan
> >>041026.html
> >>
> >>Check out what they are doing to curb it. Reducing
> anti-biotics, duh.
> >>Anti-biotics overuse has resulted in many more diseases
> than they have
> >>"cured". All the while attacking "bad" bacteria they also
> eliminate "good"
> >>bacteria leaving the immune system depleted of it's
> defenses and then
> >>along comes Mr. Pathogen (just like in tress) and wreaks a
> nightmare,
> >>and because these pathogen are so prolific it isn't long
> before what
> >>was a minor problem becomes a major health concern, just
> like over use
> >>of fertilizers in soil. Same causation, same effect.
> >>When T cells are healthy the immuno functions, including the lymph,
> >>cleans out and purify the blood and move dead cells and other
> >>pathogens along to be disposed of, but if the immuno functions are
> >>weakened by anti-biotic overkill then the lymph can't do
> it's job properly and you get  ... sick.
> >>When anti-biotics MUST be used it is recommended that a
> probiotic such
> >>as acidophilus accompany it to offset some of the negative
> effects of
> >>the immuno depletion Of course there are exemptions, as in
> all rules,
> >>but this is the standard, now starting to be admitted by the
> >>"community" of those heralding themselves as "health
> experts". HRT was
> >>a really good earner, I mean solution, until they were
> forced to admit
> >>it is a carcinogen. Vioxx was a really good earner, oops, I mean
> >>solution until people started killing themselves. Lipitor
> wa a really
> >>good... unti it also proveed to be counter-health producting.
> >>Moral of the story ? Live a healthy life and feed your body
> with high
> >>quality healthy fresh foods and you won't have to worry
> about finding
> >>a "solution" later.
> >>
> >>Luc
> >
> > ___
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> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.n

Re: [Biofuel] C.Difficile Epidemic in Quebec

[Kim & Garth Travis]

good health.  Kefir grains really are Mother Nature's best defence for 
health.  The nice part, is that one aquires grains just by paying the 
shipping, then in a couple of weeks, you have lots of grains to share with 
family and friends.  Learn more at: 
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:52 AM 10/27/2004, you wrote:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2004/10/26/cdifficile_queplan041026.html

Check out what they are doing to curb it. Reducing anti-biotics, duh. 
Anti-biotics overuse has resulted in many more diseases than they have 
"cured". All the while attacking "bad" bacteria they also eliminate "good" 
bacteria leaving the immune system depleted of it's defenses and then 
along comes Mr. Pathogen (just like in tress) and wreaks a nightmare, and 
because these pathogen are so prolific it isn't long before what was a 
minor problem becomes a major health concern, just like over use of 
fertilizers in soil. Same causation, same effect.
When T cells are healthy the immuno functions, including the lymph, cleans 
out and purify the blood and move dead cells and other pathogens along to 
be disposed of, but if the immuno functions are weakened by anti-biotic 
overkill then the lymph can't do it's job properly and you get  ... sick.
When anti-biotics MUST be used it is recommended that a probiotic such as 
acidophilus accompany it to offset some of the negative effects of the 
immuno depletion
Of course there are exemptions, as in all rules, but this is the standard, 
now starting to be admitted by the "community" of those heralding 
themselves as "health experts". HRT was a really good earner, I mean 
solution, until they were forced to admit it is a carcinogen. Vioxx was a 
really good earner, oops, I mean solution until people started killing 
themselves. Lipitor wa a really good... unti it also proveed to be 
counter-health producting.
Moral of the story ? Live a healthy life and feed your body with high 
quality healthy fresh foods and you won't have to worry about finding a 
"solution" later.


Luc


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Re: [Biofuel] Gasoline Prices

[Kim & Garth Travis]

In my part of Texas, gasoline and diesel prices have both jumped much 
higher in the last couple of weeks.  Diesel runs about $0.20 higher than 
gas and has for quite a while.  We have to travel 45 miles to buy off road 
diesel, so the price of hay is really rising.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:39 AM 10/27/2004, you wrote:
Yup, and diesel prices are $.08/liter higher than they are normally, so 
that now diesel is more than regular petrol.

Luc
- Original Message - From: "John Mullan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:25 AM
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Gasoline Prices



Around here (Niagara Region Ontario) the price has been pretty steady.
However, there is differences town to town.  Niagara sits at about
86cents/litre while Burlington sits around 80cents.  One corner there has
daily flucuations of 86cents in the first half of the day and 80cents the
second half.  This has been going on for a couple weeks.  Crazy!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of robert luis rabello
Sent: October 27, 2004 12:34 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Gasoline Prices


We're a week away from election day, and I've noticed that gasoline
prices have suddenly dropped.  Normally, we see some fluctuation in
the gasoline price during the week.  Since Friday, however, the
marquees have remained steady.  Is this coincidence?  Is it a
phenomenon peculiar to B.C.?

Or is there something else going on right now?


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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Re: [Biofuel] Backyard tools - log splitter

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 10:17 AM 10/26/2004, you wrote:

Hey Go,

Could you send me a copy of the pic as well?

I would like to see it in action as well.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "Go Hoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 03:32
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Backyard tools - log splitter


>snip<

>
> Sure Bob, a sort of pile driver! But the whole idea is to make something
> easy adapted from junk bits and piesces. I wouldn't mind a 10 ton
hydraulic
> splitter either but untill I can make one myself from free parts I have to
> use what I got.
>
> I am sending you a pic to your e-mail address (because I still havn't
> understood how to post pics to the list) of the thing in action next to a
> split pile.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Electric Yard Tools (was Trees and power companies)

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Have fun! (I really enjoy splitting wood. It's almost
a shame that we have a full pile for this winter.
Almost.)

Erik


Where are you?  I will provide tools, beverages and food if you would care 
to come and do mine!


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] On demand boiling water?

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I am curious about this appliance.  I use propane to cook with (not an 
electric burner), but for heating water, I had read once that using a 
microwave was cheaper and more energy efficient- as long as the amount you 
needed was a cup or two.  I would love a definite answer on the best way 
to (reasonably quickly- not solar) boil water.


Caroline



My on demand hot water is heated to 190F, and provides 1/2 gallon of water 
at that temperature at a time.  I have forgotten how to time cooking a meal 
that includes pasta or rice, if I don't have the thing.  It is great for 
bacteria control as well, especially since we deal with an enormous amount 
of meat in my kitchen.  [the fur family eats raw]  When I get my watt hour 
meter, I will post exactly how much electricity I am using to have the thing.


I love being able to have a cup of herbal tea, when I want it on a 15 
minute break and still have time to drink it.


Bright Blessings,
Kim 


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Re: [Biofuel] Electric Yard Tools (was Trees and power companies)

[Kim & Garth Travis]

older.  I too used an axe in Canada, but the maul works better.  I really 
would like an alternative though.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:44 AM 10/23/2004, you wrote:

Hey,
how about an old fashion Ax,thats how i doe it in Canada!
Fritz
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Fleetwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Electric Yard Tools (was Trees and power companies)


> Hi.
> I built one using a long pneumatic cylinder - tried using a jack but found
> it hard to get enough speed and momentum to the wedge to make it effective
> in splitting  the log. The whole project turned out to be a lot more
> expensive and difficult than first thought although it does work well -
> runs off a 20 cfm compressor.
>
> Mike
> Canberra, Australia.
>
> At 04:46 PM 22/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >Steve, I would like to hear what you think of the electric chain saw and
log
> >splitter when your evaluation is done.
> >
> >I have an old 14-inch, 110-volt AC chain saw.  It doesn't get much work,
> >but I'm
> >always pleased with it when I do use it.  Not for professional
> >lumberjacks, but
> >quite adequate for yardwork.
> >
> >I'm thinking about building a log splitter, probably based on a motor and
> >screw
> >jack rather than hydraulics, but I have not done enough investigation yet
> >to be
> >sure which way to go.  Spent about six hours near a gas-powered unit a
> >couple of
> >weekends ago - really want to avoid doing that again.
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Gennies and off grid in Texas

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I have a 4' x 8' trailer that I can pick it up with, and it does tilt, but 
the wheels are a great idea.  I will pick up 4 heavy duty casters next time 
I am at Harbor Freight, then that problem is solved.  And yes, my trailer 
will carry the weight, it is no longer 'factory standard'.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:58 PM 10/22/2004, you wrote:

Also if you have a block set up for removing car engines that would be 
more than enough to pick it up and lower it onto a platform on wheels of 
your making.Sometimes a wooden pallet with a piece of 1/2" plywood under 
it with casters will do. This pallet may already have the unit on it so 
all you would have to do is lift it and tap a few screws into the piece of 
plywood and lower it. This might be able to be done at the dock where the 
delivery will be (they usually have fork lifts there), then roll it onto 
the bed of the pick up or trailer and have ramps available to roll it off, 
with help obviously.2,000 lbs moves quickly on an angle, so be very careful.


Luc


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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Hi Kim, sorry for the delay in responding.



 Hi Darryl, please see inserted answers.

Just curious about the sprinkler.  Is the water collected via gutters and 
re-used,

or drained away after cooling the roof?
Actually we now have it set so that there is almost no water left to drip 
off the roof, it evaporates before it hits the eaves.  At the worst of the 
heat in the summer, we use about 2 gallons of water a day for this 
cooling.  It does hike our electric because we have to keep the well tank 
pressured to 65 pounds in order to get the water up there and still have 
some force left to spray with.


We have put additional insulation around one old fridge (top and sides), 
and that
seems to have reduced the amount of time we hear the compressor 
running.  Most
appropriate for older fridges using evaporator coils on the back.  Not 
appropriate

for some newer units that use the fridge skin as the heat-exchange surface.

My oldest appliance is 10 years old.  I moved down from Canada so I didn't 
bring many with me.  Freight is expensive.


I haven't started on solar A/C here yet (used A/C 3 days this 
year).  However, we
have made significant effort on shading the house in summer.  Canopies or 
shade
cloths cover all sun facing windows.  That's made a huge 
difference.  Shade trees
are finally getting big enough to make a difference too.  Go with a night 
time
ventilation (when my wife's allergies permit).  A few years ago we 
probably used

the A/C 50-60 days a year.



I do have shades on all windows, I do plan on putting a porch on the sunny 
side of this building, if I can ever get to it.  AC is a big deal here.  We 
did have it off in the evening in July and August this year, due to cold 
fronts, but I have never seen it that cold in the middle of summer 
before.  On a good year, I will have 6 to 9 months of no heat or AC, on a 
bad year, I will have either one or the other running at all times.  The 
new home that is being planned will be much better than this barn.





Collecting rain water may make a difference to your well pump 
consumption.  We
switched our summer place from lake water to rain water this year, and our 
power
bill seems to indicate that made a substantial difference (drawing water 
up about

10 feet and almost no horizontal run instead of up 40 feet and a 200+ feet
horizontal run).  I trust you are already using low-flow toilet(s).  Less 
water to

pump is less electricity to pump it.


Most of my water consumption is for my animals.  We use compost toilets, so 
no water usage there.  I do have plans for a water collection system for 
the gardens, as our water is quite salty and not the best thing for the 
gardens.



Given that A/C is one of your major loads, I recommend that you locate the
generator far enough away from the house that waste heat from it doesn't 
become

heat you have to overcome inside the house.


I have a building already in progress for the generator and biofuel 
lab.  It is close enough that I can use it for hydronic heating and 
domestic hot water but far enough away for sound convenience.  I am hoping 
to move all of the compressors from my fridges and freezers outside as 
well.  They really do generate far too much heat.



How much power does the fence consume?  This may be the determining factor 
in how

big a battery bank you will need to install.  Batteries definitely require
maintenance (and distilled water).
I am expecting a watt hour meter in the mail next week.  This will be a 
major help in planning what I really need to have.  I am aware of battery 
maintenance.



I expected you would be a solar cooking fan.  I really have to make time 
to build a
more robust unit for next summer.  I had a Heaven's Flame last year, and 
really

missed it this year (lost to a surprise rainstorm).

I personally like funnel cookers.  Easy to make, work like a charm.


Are you using solar for water heating?  I know it doesn't help with the 
electricity
issue immediately at hand, but something to think about for the 
future.  I'm very
pleased with our batch solar hot water pre-heater, even if it is only 
seasonal

here.


I have one home made solar hot water panel that I use for washing up in the 
rabbitry/greenhouse.  I have been looking at a solar batch hot water 
heater, I have the plans.  I needed to finish designing the place first, so 
I knew where it went.  It is not something I want to move from the barn to 
the house.


I would not give up the on-demand boiling water unit.  Perhaps put some 
additional
insulation around the housing to retain heat when power is "off".  Ours 
definitely
reduces our electrical consumption relative to an electric kettle (which 
is in turn
better than a conventional kettle on a burner element), and it is a 
significant
time-saver.  To me, this exercise is not about giving up things that 
contribute to

quality of life.
Good way to look at it, but it is one of the oldest appliances in the 
house.  I will have to see what 

RE: [Biofuel] Gennies and off grid in Texas

[Kim & Garth Travis]

them to get a break on the shipping.  I did notice that the delivery is to 
a local warehouse/delivery dock, so how do you get the darn thing installed 
at home?  2000 pounds is a little heavy to move around.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 12:54 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:

Pocatello Idaho

= = = Original message = = =

Numbers and mileage may vary with your personal situation.

Not the end all...

Just an idea of what it "might" cost

But thanks for the link to affordable Power

I already emailed them about buying one.

What city are they in?

mel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 12:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Gennies and off grid in Texas




= = = Original message = = =

OK let's do some math

3/4 gallon per hour

Let's say you want to run it 10 hours per day.

Assuming you don~t have all the free oil you can get, and you have to buy.

SS> I do, but ok, we will "assume".

A gallon of oil is around 2 to 3 per gallon in 5 gallon cans or 55 gallon 
drums


SS> If you are buying, wouldn't you buy farm diesel at $1.50?

So you are going to be using about 7 gallons per day or 50 gallons per week

50 x2 is 100 per week or 400 per month

Not including maintenance or your time.

That is one 55 gallon drum of oil a week.

That's a LOT of free oil. Now you got to DRIVE AROUND and GET that oil. So 
that costs.


SS> Yes, about 4 hours of my time on Saturdays. I guess that could cut
SS> into one's golf time, or tv watching 

And I believe 2 dollars per gallon is pretty low and it is really closer 
to 3 per gallon


SS> If I wasn't getting free veggie, I'd be getting farm diesel 2 miles
SS> down the road for $1.50 in drums.

Now your fuel costs have gone up to 600 per month. Not including driving, 
tire wear, insurance on your vehicle etc.


SS> You made some bad assumptions. How has insurance been affected?

SO while all things can be minimized you may be able to do it all on free oil?

But given that most small rest. ONLy use about 5 to 10gallons of oil a 
week, you are going to have to visit 5 to 10 different rest per month to 
collect your fuel.


SS> Yes.

As well you COULD burn farm diesel and that is what? 1.00 per gallon right 
now?


SS> $1.50

That would be about 200 per month

But let's assume you use half and half , you are looking about 300 per 
month in fuel.


SS> Nope, $300 is way off.

I used to be a guide at a lodge in the Yucatan where we ran diesel gennies 
and had a 60 mile boat ride to bring in fuel. We used bout 50 gallons a 
week as we only ran the "light" plant in the evening and morning.


They later went to a solar array and batteries with the gennie as a backup 
for no sun and issues with the inverter.


They say it was the BEST money they ever spent

Lessee 300 per month x 12 3600 per year

Panels are 4 per watt 2000 watts = 8000 lasts about 30 years? 40 years?

SS> $8 / watt for a system. You can't just count the panels, you have to
SS> count the charge controller, the inverter, the batteries, and
SS> related disconnects and fuses that are not part of a GEN only
SS> solution. These components don't last 30+ years.

So you will burn enough fuel in 3 years to pay for the panels?

SS> Not even close.

Ok 200 per month
2400 year

About 4 years. And the time and the maintenance.

SS> again, you are ascribing a lot of incidentals to the gen that don'r
SS> belong there, and missing a number that do belong to PV.

Solar just works, no issues other than changing the array angle every few 
months and hosing them off.


SS> It's a bit more than that. Maybe you forgot battery maintenance?

I am on what I call the solar panel of the month club.

For about the price of a car note, I get a new panel every month been 
doing it about a year now


Have 1300 watts and whenever I have ANY extra cash I buy another panel.

Really is the best in the LONG TERM.

And batteries, you need batteries. For night time.

SS> which need maintenance and replacing every 5-6 years (depends on
SS> model)

Yes SVO is good and can be cheap, but still will cost money that could be 
put into a solar array.


SS> We use WVO, PV, Wind, Wood, and propnae. There are appropriate
SS> usages of each.

mel

ASSUMING nothing is free.

SS> Assuming that assuming is not a good thing to do.


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RE: [Biofuel] Gennies and off grid in Texas

[Kim & Garth Travis]

own stuff.  All of it.  One of my big complaints about solar is that they 
don't want you to do your own install.  Why should I pay someone to do what 
I can do for free?  Many of us are good scrounge artists and 
wheeler/dealers.  The prices you quoted are retail, and I never pay 
retail.  Steve is also correct in assuming that I don't plan on paying for 
fuel, why should I with the wonderful advice on this list of how to get it 
for free?


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:43 AM 10/21/2004, you wrote:

Are you including the cost of the generator?

And parts when it wears out?

And you do all your own stuff, but what of folks that don't

The numbers I quoted are what we calculated for a hunting lodge in Mexico 
that ran a big gennie every day for 20 years.


mel

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Gennies and off grid in Texas


Our kWh costs on the VeggieGen are running about $0.08 / kWh (fuel 
filtering, expected maintenance, depreciation of capital assets). This is 
in Niagara Mohawk Power territory where electric is $0.15 / kWh delivered. 
This does not include the $15k capital expense avoided by not having power 
lines brought in, or the $40k saved on property purchase price because 
there were no powerlines.


= = = Original message = = =

It's going to cost you WAY MORE to run the gennie per kilowatt than buying 
grid electricity.


On the order of 20 to 40 cents per kilowatt. You WILL pay for the cost of 
solar panels in a few years of fuel, maintenance and "problems" with the 
mechanical generator.


I have a 20 kw propane gennie here but we only use it as a backup. I have 
about 1300 watt of solar panels and while they ARE expensive, they are the 
easiest and cheapest in the LONG TERM


--

In my opinion a gennie should only be used as a back up to PV power setup 
to make up for a long string of cloudy days when the batteries did not get 
fully charged I have my own 700 watt PV setup down here in Houston, 
and have never regretted it.




A combo of solar, wind, gennies and wood will be better than putting all 
your eggs in the gennie basket.




That is good advice.. and in addition to that, I also built a 
rainwater catchment system which I filter through a home made sand 
filter for household use and I have a cast iron wood comfort heater 
for heating my

home,  when necessary   http://Geocities.com/solarliving

Gig





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Re: [Biofuel] Gennies and off grid in Texas

[Kim & Garth Travis]

I realize that different machines get different rates of usage, but could 
you give me your gallons per hour of veggie oil usage?


I have been looking at our power usage trying to determine what size 
generator I need.  I am strongly leaning towards the idea of using 2 
generators.  The first one for all the stuff that I use day in, day out, 
year round. It would only run from 6 AM till 10PM, and I would use solar 
for the fence, since it is the only thing that has to have power at 
night.  The deep freezers and fridges do just fine with out power for 8 
hours, the grid goes down so often they are used to it.  The second 
generator would be fired up when I need the wood working shop, or the paper 
mixing system [5hp] or for the AC until I can get my new home and that 
problem solved.


For now, we are looking at running veggie oil with dino diesel for start 
ups and downs, since I don't have the ability to set up a lab/processing 
area and the generators in the six months I have.


Your thoughts on this are appreciated.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:20 AM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
Our kWh costs on the VeggieGen are running about $0.08 / kWh (fuel 
filtering, expected maintenance, depreciation of capital assets). This is 
in Niagara Mohawk Power territory where electric is $0.15 / kWh delivered. 
This does not include the $15k capital expense avoided by not having power 
lines brought in, or the $40k saved on property purchase price because 
there were no powerlines.


= = = Original message = = =

It's going to cost you WAY MORE to run the gennie per kilowatt than buying
grid electricity.

On the order of 20 to 40 cents per kilowatt. You WILL pay for the cost of
solar panels in a few years of fuel, maintenance and "problems" with the
mechanical generator.

I have a 20 kw propane gennie here but we only use it as a backup. I have
about 1300 watt of solar panels and while they ARE expensive, they are the
easiest and cheapest in the LONG TERM

--

In my opinion a gennie should only be used as a back up to PV power setup to
make up for a long string of cloudy days when the batteries did not get
fully charged I have my own 700 watt PV setup down here in Houston, and
have never regretted it.



A combo of solar, wind, gennies and wood will be better than putting all
your eggs in the gennie basket.



That is good advice.. and in addition to that, I also built a rainwater
catchment system which I filter through a home made sand filter for
household use and I have a cast iron wood comfort heater for heating my
home,  when necessary   http://Geocities.com/solarliving

Gig





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Re: [Biofuel] Swamp cooler

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Actually we rarely get to 115, but it does happen.  Then I spend my day 
spraying the hose on my livestock so they can survive.


Swamp coolers don't work well with high humidity.  What I am doing is to 
keep the metal roof cool so heat does not build up and come inside, that is 
all.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:58 PM 10/20/2004, you wrote:

Hi Kim,

I'm fairly new to the list and have been lurking for a bit. The comment
about the air conditioner was just that at that time they had almost
not heard of air conditioners. I realize that Texas is HOT. I wouldn't
work at 115F, let alone my computer.

You mentioned you spray water on the roof for cooling. Does that work
using evaporation something like a swamp cooler? The best explanation
of how a swamp cooler works I have run across is at
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/homeandwork/homes/inside/ 
heatandcool/evaporative_coolers.html . There is a chart on the page

showing how effective a swamp cooler is under different temperatures
and humidity. It may be helpful.

Mickey


Message: 12
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 16:11:21 -0500
From: Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

I do have a wood stove for heat in the winter, and yes I do know how to
cook on it.  I am planning on building a wood bread oven for outdoor
baking
in the summer.  Ohio is not Texas, where the temperatures can hit over
115F, so AC is necessary, not just a luxury.  I only cool my place to
about
80F.  Any warmer and my computer refuses to work.
Bright Blessings,
Kim


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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Actually paper adobe is more suited to my climate, and yes, I do plan on 
building a proper home one of these years.  This was suppose to come before 
going off grid, as is, I live in my metal barn.  While I do keep it fairly 
cool by running a sprinkler system on the roof, I do still require 
AC.  Even if I were underground, some form of cooling is required as the an 
underground room will maintain a temperature of 72F, with out people giving 
off heat in it. [From the Haak winery on the gulf of Mexico]


As I said in my original post, I am the end of the line.  The only easement 
the power company has on my land is the one I gave them when I put the 
power in 12 years ago.  The neighbors on the other side are served by a 
different company.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:42 PM 10/20/2004, you wrote:

Hi Kim,
> temperatures can hit over 115F, so AC is necessary, not just a
> luxury.  I only cool my place to about 80F.

When you get a chance, you might want to look into 'wrapping' your house 
in strawbale and insulating your roof with wool.  It'll help keep those 
summer temperatures down in the house, meaning you won't need AC, or maybe 
not as much of it. I've got a bathhouse that's strawbale with a 
wool-insulated roof (and white roof surface.)  It can hit 100+ outside, 
but it's always a cool 65/70 inside.  Sweet stuff.


On another thought, if the power company has an easement or right of way 
on your land, it might not matter that you're off the grid, if your 
neighbors are still on.  They might still need to go through your space - 
poles, chemicals and all.

You might want to check your deed.

Otherwise, there are solar, wood, propane and gas water heaters, space 
heaters, cookstoves/ovens and solar-powered or kerosene lamps.  Shoot, 
there are even still some gas lamps being made out there.  One of my 
neighbors just installed one in her house.  I've got an Alladin lamp that 
puts out the equivalent of 100watts, easily.  Shoot, there's even 
wood-fired hot tubs.  You'd be surprised how much you don't really *need* 
electricity - although it can be nice.  If you're going to go with 
wood-heat/etc, be sure to accurately assess your timber 
resources.  They're basically renewable, but it can take quite a while if 
not managed properly.


If you're making biodiesel, I've heard the glycerine, poured into 
sawdust-packed paper milk cartons and solidified burns in wood stoves 
quite nicely.  It reportedly gives off 3x the heat of a comparably sized 
log.  Now THAT's sweet.  I'll be trying that this winter.

HeidiWD

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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

5' into my property and my trees are on my property line.  I did consider 
putting the meter pole out front and running the power underground to save 
the rest of the headaches with their additional poles, but this will not 
save my trees at the front of my property.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:45 PM 10/20/2004, you wrote:

Hi,

There *may* be a way to keep both the trees and the grid connection if
all parties are agreeable to one idea and if the trees of subject affect Kim
only. Move the meter to a point before the  trees, with Kim agreeing to take
on maintainence of the line going through the trees and assuming liability
for any damages or other costs caused by non-maintainence.

One problem may be that  the power company would want an exorbanate
amount of money for the existing line unless Kim has record of having the
line has been paid for at the time of initial service installation.  Another
drawback would be that Kim would be responsible for repairs after damage, no
more calling the power company to take care of things when the power goes
out due to damage to that section of line.  Unless there are private power
line construction companies local I wouldn't even think about this idea
unless underground was feasible.   Most residential electricians can handle
under ground installation and repair and few are able to handle overhead
repairs.  Oh well..,just an idea that I had.
Doug


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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

cook on it.  I am planning on building a wood bread oven for outdoor baking 
in the summer.  Ohio is not Texas, where the temperatures can hit over 
115F, so AC is necessary, not just a luxury.  I only cool my place to about 
80F.  Any warmer and my computer refuses to work.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:20 PM 10/20/2004, you wrote:

Hi Kim,

I don't know if you have wood available or not, but it could be used for 
cooking. Are you familiar with Lehman's? They have wood cookstoves, and 
just about anything else that you would need for off-grid living. They 
started their business to supply non-electric "things" to the Amish. See 
them at http://www.lehmans.com/ .


We are not Amish, but my grandmother cooked on a wood cookstove until she 
passed away in 1963. Some of the best food I have had was cooked by her. 
She also heated with wood. Air conditioning? What's that? She did have an 
electric refrigerator, but it was about the only electric appliance she 
used. You would not believe the house she lived in. Most people would call 
it a shack, living room, bedroom, large kitchen, outhouse, well, etc. etc. 
The siding was the slabs cut off logs at the sawmill - you know, the first 
piece cut off the log. Southern Ohio area, dirt poor people, but they were 
just as happy as we were who had all the conveniences.


Mickey

On Oct 20, 2004, at 7:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Message: 3
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:21:00 -0500
From: Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The trees were there when they put in the power lines 12 years ago, they
were never cut.  Now, they are cutting everything in sight, clearing the so
called easements.  Yes, they have the right which is why I am going off
grid then they can get off my property and leave my trees alone.
There is
also the problem of them insisting on coming in and pouring chemicals all
around their posts to protect from vines growing, even though I keep the
vines off the stupid posts.
Bright Blessings,
Kim






I have been concentrating on the sustainable farming and on getting my

farm

going, planning on doing my biofuel thing in a big way when I had the farm
up and running.  I do not have the rabbitry set up for manure collection

to

do methane the way I wanted to.  I had planned on using a separate
generator and drive engines, so I could use my tractor for back up when
maintenance was needed.  I am still looking at the various ideas for solar
AC and trying to figure out how much power I can get away with.  I am not
ready to do this.

I am not willing to part with 20 to 30 year old tress, either.

On a happy note, someone that does engine conversions to run SVO just
joined HREG. [Houston Renewable Energy Group] so I will have some help
reasonably close at hand.  It will be wonderful to be able to get my
conversions done locally. [within 150 miles]

So, I have 6 months to be off grid.  Any ideas of how to stream line the
process and get me to where I need to be?

Bright Blessings,
Kim




Mickey E. Sadler
Dublin, Ohio

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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Generator is primary.  I do have wind and sun, but I do get lots of 
cloudy days and when it is the hottest, my wind dies.  Solar panels are 
too expensive for me.  We have no hydro possibilities.
Solar panels are coming down in price, and you can always start small and 
add as you can afford.


I will use a few solar panels, as you have mentioned, the fence for 
one.  For lights in the toilets at the back of the land and other such 
uses, they are great.


Have you figured the cost to run the generator?  It would seem to me the 
cost would be much greater than grid power, though I don't know as I have 
never considered the possibility.  What about a propane generator? Or can 
you get the fuel needed to power the generator delivered to your home anyway?


Actually, I plan on using waste veggie oil.  I have 4 restaurants in town, 
and lots more in neighboring cities.  I own three 500 gallon poly tanks 
with metal frames, complete with hose attachments that I can pick the oil 
up in.  I was planning on using methane as well, but those plans are still 
in the future.



Can you set up all your loads so they will run only when a generator (or 
other
source) is running, or will you require local energy storage?  If so, 
batteries are
the most practical option (IMNSHO), though not perfect by any 
means.  Most likely a

non-trivial investment (batteries, inverter, charger, etc).


Still with a battery system, you could save excess generated power for 
later use when the wind or sun goes away.  I have heard wind power is the 
cheapest to generate if you have sufficient wind (we don't).
I have the wind, but no the know how to be able to set it up without a huge 
battery bank or the grid.  Wind power generation is a complete mystery to 
me and I have yet to find anyone who makes sense on the subject. [at least 
to me]





Except for my electric fence charger, I can get by with only having power 
when the generator is running.  I had planned on having the electric as 
just back up to my fences before I went off grid, but right now, the 
electric fence is my primary means of keeping my animals where they belong.


We too have electric fencing and depending on what kind of animals you 
have, a solar fence charger should be adequate.  However we have found if 
you intend to rely on it, you need back up solar chargers and even backups 
for your back ups!  (A  bad storm once took out 3 out of five chargers, we 
had two extra, but still were short the thirdwe were on  a rare 
vacation and had to go to a good bit of trouble to get the neighbor who 
was watching the animals money to go purchase the third.)


Actually, I still have a switch on my neighbors fence and he has one on 
mine.  We both like to take vacations and help each other out.




Other lists may also be helpful to you.  Homeenergysolutions, alternate 
energy,

renewable-energy come to mind.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Are you located in TX? Solar seems to be extremely popular in parts of 
TX, and very "PC" down there.
Yes I am in Texas, about 125 miles from the gulf.  I use solar hot water 
already, with propane back up.  I do solar cooking, so yes, I do use 
solar.  I am just not a fan of solar panels.





This is something we have been working on, all along.  However, I greatly 
dislike gas stoves, which would cut our electric but raise our propane 
bill.  I do a great deal of slow cooking on low temperatures, something 
gas does not do well.  We are hoping to get some methane production going 
to help off set the electric usage, such as on demand hot water to back 
up the solar.


Solar cooking is best at slow cooking, and very cheap to get started 
doing.  Even though you say you have many cloudy days, once you get in the 
habit of it, you may find there is more sun than you think.   If you built 
enough (or a big enough) solar cookers, perhaps  you could do a good deal 
of your cooking at once and then just reheat it on cloudy or later days.
Here is a link to a very cheap and huge solar cooker, it worked as you can 
see. Using and old freezer would save you the insulation step.

http://www.stevenharris.net/solarcooking/Web/albumindex1.html


Actually I have been using solar cooking for over 6 years.  However, my 
soap doesn't come out right in the sun.  Neither do my candles.  Stoves are 
used for more than food in my house.  And it can rain for weeks at a time, 
so you still need the stove.  It is my love of solar cooking that 
has  hooked me on slow cooking.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

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RE: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

just added it to my list of things to do.  Fortunately, it is near the 
bottom. 


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:40 AM 10/20/2004, you wrote:

Hello Kim,

If and when you disconnect be sure to produce a legal document that
gives your easement back to you.  Otherwise, they can keep on using this
"avenue" to invade your property even when you go off grid regardless of
trees and/ or vines.  This is the most often used "right of way" for any
government official to legally enter your property  Therefore, you
should demand release of the easement in writing when you go off grid.

...just a note for those of you with easements who want to establish a
protected domain... get a "legal" release from your pre-existing
easements.

Best wishes,
Peggy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kim & Garth Travis
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 6:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

The trees were there when they put in the power lines 12 years ago, they

were never cut.  Now, they are cutting everything in sight, clearing the
so
called easements.  Yes, they have the right which is why I am going off
grid then they can get off my property and leave my trees alone.  There
is
also the problem of them insisting on coming in and pouring chemicals
all
around their posts to protect from vines growing, even though I keep the

vines off the stupid posts.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:58 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
>Is there no an easement for the power lines?
>
>If so, they can cut anything within the easement, but not outside it.
>
>-Guy-
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:44 PM
>Subject: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies
>
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Well my trees have managed to survive the Texas Hiway departments
>massacre,
> > but now the power company is on the rampage.  Any tree within 20
feet of a
> > power line is being cut down, regardless of how tall it is.  I had a
major
> > argument with them, as I have a lovely mature tree windscreen
between my
> > property and the hiway in the front of my place.  I am tail end
charlie on
> > the line, so if I go off grid, I get to keep my trees.  They have
given me
> > six months.
> >
> > I have been concentrating on the sustainable farming and on getting
my
>farm
> > going, planning on doing my biofuel thing in a big way when I had
the farm
> > up and running.  I do not have the rabbitry set up for manure
collection
>to
> > do methane the way I wanted to.  I had planned on using a separate
> > generator and drive engines, so I could use my tractor for back up
when
> > maintenance was needed.  I am still looking at the various ideas for
solar
> > AC and trying to figure out how much power I can get away with.  I
am not
> > ready to do this.
> >
> > I am not willing to part with 20 to 30 year old tress, either.
> >
> > On a happy note, someone that does engine conversions to run SVO
just
> > joined HREG. [Houston Renewable Energy Group] so I will have some
help
> > reasonably close at hand.  It will be wonderful to be able to get my
> > conversions done locally. [within 150 miles]
> >
> > So, I have 6 months to be off grid.  Any ideas of how to stream line
the
> > process and get me to where I need to be?
> >
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Kim
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

At 09:26 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:

Hi Kim,
an ambitious project for most people, however, I suspect you are up to it.


Thanks for the vote of confidence



Are your telephone lines strung on the same poles as the electrical lines?


No, the telephone comes in from a different corner and is underground.

What do you use electricity for now?  LightingYES, refrigerationYES, 
cookingYES, well pumpYES, air conditioningYES & NO, hot water NO, space 
heatingNO, computerYES, entertainment equipment YES, washerYES, dryerYES, 
yard or farm equipmentYES, etc?  Do you have your recent electrical bills, 
and do they show your consumption by period?


My consumption stays around 1025 KWH except in the summer when I need my 
AC.  My husband is an Electronics Technician so he can do all the relays I 
will need to be able to determine which appliance gets power, when.   We 
already use a timed sprinkler system on our roof for 60% of our AC.


How can you reduce those requirements?  Substitution, efficiency, 
conservation,

other?
We have just started looking into solar AC.  I have been looking at using 
some of the solar AC principles to build a cold room which could cut the 
deep freezers.  We are using power bars to control phantom loads as much as 
possible.  My clothes line is almost finished, but it has to be way up high 
to prevent the dogs from getting the clothes dirty, all over again.



How do you propose to generate your own electricity?  Generator, wind 
turbine,
solar panels, low head hydro, other?  I'm assuming a generator (biodiesel) 
as your
primary source initially, but that doesn't preclude other options in the 
future.


Generator is primary.  I do have wind and sun, but I do get lots of cloudy 
days and when it is the hottest, my wind dies.  Solar panels are too 
expensive for me.  We have no hydro possibilities.




Can you set up all your loads so they will run only when a generator (or 
other
source) is running, or will you require local energy storage?  If so, 
batteries are
the most practical option (IMNSHO), though not perfect by any means.  Most 
likely a

non-trivial investment (batteries, inverter, charger, etc).


Except for my electric fence charger, I can get by with only having power 
when the generator is running.  I had planned on having the electric as 
just back up to my fences before I went off grid, but right now, the 
electric fence is my primary means of keeping my animals where they belong.


Other lists may also be helpful to you.  Homeenergysolutions, alternate 
energy,

renewable-energy come to mind.

It is certainly an interesting adventure.  The first step is examining 
current
consumption to look for ways to reduce it.  That will be worthwhile 
whether you go
off-grid or not.  The least expensive electricity is the electricity you 
don't have

to produce.


This is something we have been working on, all along.  However, I greatly 
dislike gas stoves, which would cut our electric but raise our propane 
bill.  I do a great deal of slow cooking on low temperatures, something gas 
does not do well.  We are hoping to get some methane production going to 
help off set the electric usage, such as on demand hot water to back up the 
solar.


I may have to loose some of my conveniences, such as my on demand boiling 
water in my kitchen.  There is a limit to how many conveniences I can loose 
and still get my work done, as it is only me working the place and doing 
the chores.


Bright Blessings,
Kim 


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Re: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

were never cut.  Now, they are cutting everything in sight, clearing the so 
called easements.  Yes, they have the right which is why I am going off 
grid then they can get off my property and leave my trees alone.  There is 
also the problem of them insisting on coming in and pouring chemicals all 
around their posts to protect from vines growing, even though I keep the 
vines off the stupid posts.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:58 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:

Is there no an easement for the power lines?

If so, they can cut anything within the easement, but not outside it.

-Guy-

- Original Message -
From: "Kim & Garth Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:44 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Trees and power companies


> Greetings,
>
> Well my trees have managed to survive the Texas Hiway departments
massacre,
> but now the power company is on the rampage.  Any tree within 20 feet of a
> power line is being cut down, regardless of how tall it is.  I had a major
> argument with them, as I have a lovely mature tree windscreen between my
> property and the hiway in the front of my place.  I am tail end charlie on
> the line, so if I go off grid, I get to keep my trees.  They have given me
> six months.
>
> I have been concentrating on the sustainable farming and on getting my
farm
> going, planning on doing my biofuel thing in a big way when I had the farm
> up and running.  I do not have the rabbitry set up for manure collection
to
> do methane the way I wanted to.  I had planned on using a separate
> generator and drive engines, so I could use my tractor for back up when
> maintenance was needed.  I am still looking at the various ideas for solar
> AC and trying to figure out how much power I can get away with.  I am not
> ready to do this.
>
> I am not willing to part with 20 to 30 year old tress, either.
>
> On a happy note, someone that does engine conversions to run SVO just
> joined HREG. [Houston Renewable Energy Group] so I will have some help
> reasonably close at hand.  It will be wonderful to be able to get my
> conversions done locally. [within 150 miles]
>
> So, I have 6 months to be off grid.  Any ideas of how to stream line the
> process and get me to where I need to be?
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
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[Biofuel] Trees and power companies

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Well my trees have managed to survive the Texas Hiway departments massacre, 
but now the power company is on the rampage.  Any tree within 20 feet of a 
power line is being cut down, regardless of how tall it is.  I had a major 
argument with them, as I have a lovely mature tree windscreen between my 
property and the hiway in the front of my place.  I am tail end charlie on 
the line, so if I go off grid, I get to keep my trees.  They have given me 
six months.


I have been concentrating on the sustainable farming and on getting my farm 
going, planning on doing my biofuel thing in a big way when I had the farm 
up and running.  I do not have the rabbitry set up for manure collection to 
do methane the way I wanted to.  I had planned on using a separate 
generator and drive engines, so I could use my tractor for back up when 
maintenance was needed.  I am still looking at the various ideas for solar 
AC and trying to figure out how much power I can get away with.  I am not 
ready to do this.


I am not willing to part with 20 to 30 year old tress, either.

On a happy note, someone that does engine conversions to run SVO just 
joined HREG. [Houston Renewable Energy Group] so I will have some help 
reasonably close at hand.  It will be wonderful to be able to get my 
conversions done locally. [within 150 miles]


So, I have 6 months to be off grid.  Any ideas of how to stream line the 
process and get me to where I need to be?


Bright Blessings,
Kim 


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Re: [Biofuel] Methane Digester

[Kim & Garth Travis]

it is best to start small.  Methane production does not affect the amount 
of compost you can make.  After the effluent has passed through the 
digester, it goes to the compost pile.  JTF has some really fantastic 
information on Methane digesters.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:23 AM 10/12/2004, you wrote:

I was curious to know if anyone has any first hand
experience with Methane Digesters. And if so, what
size farm operation would be a minimum for
generating a useful amount of gas? Keeping in mind
that much of my small farm manure is currently
used in composting and I wouldn't sacrifice that.
However, over the next few years I will be
increasing the amount of livestock. In addition,
what sort of environmental impact might this have?

Thank you,

Tim F.

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RE: [Biofuel] fuel additives

[Kim & Garth Travis]

get used much.  I do drive in Houston some of the time, for the occasional 
shopping trip to pick up what is not available locally, but most of my 
mileage is hiway.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:05 AM 10/12/2004, you wrote:
Kim,it certainly seems very unusual to me.Also the brake pads. 
This obviously depends on where you are driving. I am in southern UK 
where people are very crammed together, the weather is often wet, and the 
roads are gritted and salted in winter. Where are you?


Don Johnston
Environmental Coordinator , Portsmouth City Council
Chair, Solent Energy and Environment Management Group

Winner ; National Champion-Science and Technology, Green Apple Awards 2002

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Tel: 023 9283 4247


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Kim & Garth Travis
Sent: 12 October 2004 14:01
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] fuel additives


Is it that unusual?  My '92 honda has over 140,000 with the original
exhaust and brake pads.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:16 PM 10/11/2004, you wrote:
>124k miles on original exhaust seems exceptional to me, and I think it 
is >a statement of how clean exhaust emissions are from the fuel you use. 
My >understanding is that exhausts not so much rust from the outside in, 
but >rot from the inside out due to the presence of acidic combustion 
products >from fossil fuels...these acidic products, I'm told, are 
reduced by this >technology.


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RE: [Biofuel] fuel additives

[Kim & Garth Travis]

exhaust and brake pads.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:16 PM 10/11/2004, you wrote:
124k miles on original exhaust seems exceptional to me, and I think it is 
a statement of how clean exhaust emissions are from the fuel you use. My 
understanding is that exhausts not so much rust from the outside in, but 
rot from the inside out due to the presence of acidic combustion products 
from fossil fuels...these acidic products, I'm told, are reduced by this 
technology.


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Re: [Biofuel] RE: Fire ants wasZXZX

[Kim & Garth Travis]

don't seem to die from it.   Could you please give further information of 
this method?  My barn and home are under the same roof so every time I 
bring home a load of hay, I get an invasion.


I use stevia to sweeten beverages and it has the side effect of lowering 
blood pressure, but not as dramatically as cinnamon, I would guess.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 12:34 AM 10/9/2004, you wrote:
I used boric acid and egg yolk for the common German cockroach when I 
lived in Southern California. They like egg yolk so much they don't run 
when the light is first turned on.


I think whatever ants like but with boric acid not borax would do the trick.

I use a heaping teaspoon of cinammon to lower my bloodsugar. Works as well 
as my Amaryl tablets.


Kirk

Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The fire ants thrive on that mixture, we tried it, but thanks for the
suggestion. Cinnamon doesn't hurt the children, pets or crickets.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 01:03 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:
>No fire ants in Oregon but we do have sugar ants. We use equal parts
>borax, powdered sugar and yeast. Non-toxic to kids and pets. The yeast
>goes back to the queen and "kapow" she blows up and the ants start to
>disappear.
>
>Mike C
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Buck Williams wrote:
>
>, 3 to 4 applications
> >of urine from a male that eats meat will kill the hill completely. The
> >early morning variety of urine is the most effective.
> >
> >Bright Blessings,
> >Kim
> >
> >
> >hi kimm, i imagine that paraticlular firee ant warfare is a praetty good
> >stress relivever alsoandd if ithe neighb ors say anything,, just 
say,,,

> >hey, itsss fire ants,,, theyll understand,,,they may not understand
> >that your killim themm but they will approve,,buck
>
>_
>Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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RE: [Biofuel] RE: Fire ants wasZXZX

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Is this recipe suppose to have 3 ingrediants or is it 2 tablespoon of borax 
and 1 of honey?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:34 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:

Plenty of Fire Ants in Georgia. I use tablespoon
of borax, tablespoon of honey, and a tablespoon of
borax. It's a good bait and the workers take it
back to the queen and then no more ants.

Tim,

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Energy Recovery
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 2:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: Fire ants wasZXZX


No fire ants in Oregon but we do have sugar ants.
We use equal parts borax, powdered sugar and
yeast.  Non-toxic to kids and pets.  The yeast
goes back to the queen and "kapow" she blows up
and the ants start to disappear.

Mike C
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Buck Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

, 3 to 4 applications
>of urine from a male that eats meat will kill the
hill completely. The
>early morning variety of urine is the most
effective.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>
>hi kimm, i imagine that paraticlular firee ant
warfare is a praetty good
>stress relivever alsoandd if ithe neighb ors
say anything,, just say,,,
>hey, itsss fire ants,,, theyll
understand,,,they may not understand
>that your killim themm but they will
approve,,buck

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Re: [Biofuel] RE: Fire ants wasZXZX

[Kim & Garth Travis]

ants.  Only instant grits kill, no ordinary grits.  Instant grits are super 
dehydrated and they suck the water out of the insects body.  We had this 
discussion on another list and if you do not live where instant grits are a 
known food, any super dehydrated crumbly kind of food stuff will 
work.  They kill beneficial insects as well as harmful ones.  If you have 
high humidity, after about 24 hours of exposure to air, you are feeding the 
ants/cockroaches not killing them.  This solution will not harm pets or 
children.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:37 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:

Old post...

Date:Mon, 17 Aug 1998 03:59:55 +0800
From:Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re fire ants

Hi there

Vera wrote:




Fire ants I know about, or at least the local variety - small, vicious,
completely unreasonable, and lots of back-up! They don't make mounds here
but that doesn't stop them making life impossible. I know you can kill them
with fermented citrus peels, though they always come back of course. But
what exactly are instant grits?

Keith Addison
Lantau Island
Hong Kong

--

Date:Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:01:58 -0500
From:"Barbara J. Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re fire ants

Keith:  I don't know if your Hong Kong fire ants are the same species as
ours, which were unintentionally imported from South America.  They sound
the same:  small, make small or large mounds, vicious, and completely
unreasonable.  It sounds like your killing method of fermented citrus
peels is ahead of our general knowledge.  Our organic gardening guru on
the radio has advocated using orange oil (from processed orange peels).
My problem is that after buying an expensive gallon of the stuff, I don't
know how much to add to a gallon of drench.  I want to kill but don't want
to waste an expensive ingredient.  According to the guru's advice, it is
to be added to manure compost tea mixed with molasses for a long-lasting
effect.
Barbara  USDA zone 7/8   southwest of Fort Worth, Texas

--

Date:Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:32:13 -0500
From:"Barbara J. Davis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re fire ants (grits)

P.S.  Keith:  I just realized I didn't answer your question regarding
grits.  I'm relatively new to the south but grits are a true southern
dish.  They are hulled and coarsely ground kernels of corn (maize)
which are cooked to form a porridge.

Barbara  southwest of Fort Worth

--

Never did try peeing on them, but I found this stuff worked well against 
fire ants:


"Organic Ant Killer (Greenco)
Ready-to-use insecticidal soap spray which kills by contact and is safe 
even in the kitchen.

AI: Fatty acids GRAK 500ml £4.25"

Other people talk of "mild soap". Has anyone tried the glycerine 
by-product from biodiesel, with or without the methanol? Or, perhaps 
better, the FFA soapstock you get when you separate the by-product components?


The ants here are neither vicious nor unreasonable, they don't kill 
people, I'm not after murdering them to find out if the by-product will do 
the job, but I'd like to know.


This is worth a look:

http://www.biconet.com/
BIOCONTROL NETWORK

http://www.biconet.com/solutionsdg.html#Fireant
Fire ants

Regards

Keith


Very funny Buck.  My neighbors need binoculars or a telescope to see what 
I am doing that closely and would have to telephone.  In the city, I 
assume that a specimen jar for collections would be used. But yes, we do 
have to fight a war with the fire ants, they will kill a human if you 
give them the chance.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:07 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:


, 3 to 4 applications
of urine from a male that eats meat will kill the hill completely. The 
early morning variety of urine is the most effective.


Bright Blessings,
Kim


hi kimm, i imagine that paraticlular firee ant warfare is a praetty 
good stress relivever alsoandd if ithe neighb ors say anything,, 
just say,,, hey, itsss fire ants,,, theyll understand,,,they may 
not understand that your killim themm but they will approve,,buck


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Re: [Biofuel] RE: Fire ants wasZXZX

[Kim & Garth Travis]

suggestion.  Cinnamon doesn't hurt the children, pets or crickets.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 01:03 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote:
No fire ants in Oregon but we do have sugar ants.  We use equal parts 
borax, powdered sugar and yeast.  Non-toxic to kids and pets.  The yeast 
goes back to the queen and "kapow" she blows up and the ants start to 
disappear.


Mike C
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Buck Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

, 3 to 4 applications
>of urine from a male that eats meat will kill the hill completely. The
>early morning variety of urine is the most effective.
>
>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>
>hi kimm, i imagine that paraticlular firee ant warfare is a praetty good
>stress relivever alsoandd if ithe neighb ors say anything,, just say,,,
>hey, itsss fire ants,,, theyll understand,,,they may not understand
>that your killim themm but they will approve,,buck

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