Re: [Biofuel] Robert Newman explains just wars how governments justify war
Well done!! Thanks for the link! -Redler D. Mindock wrote: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7374585792978336967 Funny through the tears Has some interesting factoids, like: the total carbon emisions for the full cycle of the nuclear energy plants (from fuel mining, refinement etc to decomissioning) is 75% of the carbon emissions of the coal fired plants for the production of the same amount of energy The ratio of the food calories produced to the fosil energy calories spent to produce that food: 1944 2300:1 1974 1:1 now 1:2000 The ecology institute of Wilitz (sp?), California calculated, that 2800ft^2 (260m^2) of agriculture land is sufficient for supporting one person, however this calculation assumes: strictly vegan diet biointensive farming composting all orgnanic waste, including post-mortem humans (o.O) Also good for improving your English comprehension skills for those, who are not native speakers :). Lovely british accent. Lengthy though. -- Tomas ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Reinventing Medicine -- book
FYI: In the mid 90's I had a long commute to work and spent my time in the car listening to Bill Moyers in a series he did about the mind/body connection. This post reminded me of the work he did on that. -Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Reinventing Medicine by Larry Dossey Cue the theme song to the Twilight Zone: Research shows your plants won't grow as well when you're depressed as when you're happy. Praying for someone else will improve your own health, too. The growth of E. coli bacteria is inhibited when a group of people merely think about stopping the growth. And qi gong practitioners in San Francisco can kill cancer cells in other peoples' bodies--by willing the cells to die. These ideas surely sound ludicrous, but these and other similarly mindboggling studies have been commissioned and replicated by researchers at Harvard, Duke, McGill, and other esteemed universities. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Vaccines: How deadly are they?
Bob,
A lot of your response was very logical and thought through. In
general, I agree with a lot of what you said. However, it was a little
disappointing to see comments that dismiss claims simply because
conventional wisdom says so.
For example, I think it's interesting how you respond to his position
by saying "You suggest things that fly in the face of hundreds of years
of experience and countless health professionals around the world." as
if that's reason enough to call him ("dude") paranoid.
After all, "flying in the face of hundreds of years of experience" is
what Traditional Asian medical practitioners accuse Western medicine of
every day.
I think that sticking "to one thing at a time so we can be sure that we
agree on the data" is what I would have said, irrespective of my
knowledge or experience and in general, I would have agreed more with
you, had you opened your response with this sentence and left out the
accusation.
...my $.02
-Redler
“Grau, teurer Freund ist alle Theorie, und Grun des Lebens goldner
Baum.”
("Dear friend, all theory is gray, And green the golden tree of life.")
- Goethe (Faust, Part I)
you are one paranoid dude kirk, and I mean no disrespect. You suggest
things that fly in the face of hundreds of years of experience and
countless health professionals around the world. Either they are
stupid or there is some vast conspiracy to mislead us about numerous
diseases. These I submit are extraordinary claims, shouldn't they
merit at lest proof other than from admittedly anti-vac sources?
Lets stick to one thing at a time so we can be sure that we agree on
the data. Back to small pox. You cited a couple of places where you
imply that smallpox inoculations caused smallpox which is why I
responded. Now you say you're not sure; but it does cause other
diseases?
If that's the case, then why weren't there huge, and I mean really
huge reductions in all these diseases when small pox vaccinations were
ended in the mid sixties in the US? Surely this would have shown up.
And bedbugs and mosquitoes as vectors of smallpox and a disease from
the lack of fresh fruit?- that is certainly not the conventional
wisdom. Do we agree that smallpox is a viral infection? or is it
something else?
from wikipedia: (I challenge you to edit this stuff if you think it
is wrong)
The disease is only moderately infectious, far less so than
chickenpox. Unlike chickenpox, smallpox is not notably infectious in
the prodromal period—viral shedding being delayed until the appearance
of the rash. Smallpox transmission is a risk of prolonged social
contact, direct contact with infected body fluids or contaminated
objects. Infection in the natural disease will be via the lungs. The
incubation period to obvious disease is around 12 days. In the initial
growth phase the virus seems to move from cell to cell, but around the
12th day, lysis of many infected cells occurs and the virus will be
found in the bloodstream in large numbers. The initial or prodromal
symptoms are essentially similar to other viral diseases such as
influenza and the common cold—fevers, muscle pain, stomach aches, etc.
The digestive tract is commonly involved, leading to vomiting. Most
cases will be prostrated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox
I dont know if smallpox vaccine induces smallpox per se.
But I doubt it
prevents it.
I suspect it induces all sorts of disease due to immune
distress. As for where it is gone it tours Pakistan every few years.
when was the most recent outbreak? The world health organization says
small pox hasn't existed in the wild since 1977, the last outbreak in
Pakistan was 67. Do you have other information?
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00049694.htm
People that work there doing health work seem to notice insect control
seems to work better than vaccine. In fact I predict with the increase
of bed bugs on the east coast we will soon see an epidemic of perhaps
even smallpox. Public school teaches smallpox was spread to the Native
Americans by fomites - blankets exposed to victims. I suggest the
blankets had blood sucking insects on them.
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20020812.htm
[snip]
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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Vaccines: How deadly are they?
Just for the record, "conventional wisdom" was my choice of words but,
point taken anyway.
And "a body of data proven beyond doubt via the scientific method" is
also not very debatable in my opinion (by both it's explicit meaning
and what I understand to be the scientific method).
I also understand your frustration about unscientific positions
(remember "junk science"?).
I'm just concerned that ideas that are (so far) considered unproven due
to scientific method may prove otherwise in the future and we're
unwilling to explore those possibilities - kinda like dogma for
scientists. When unproven once, it's condemned to be false forever
(exaggerated to make my point).
That's it - my $.04
-Redler
bob allen wrote:
Mike Redler wrote:
Bob,
A lot of your response was very logical and thought through. In general,
I agree with a lot of what you said. However, it was a little
disappointing to see comments that dismiss claims simply because
conventional wisdom says so.
ok, "conventional wisdom" was a poor choice of words. I should have
said that there is a body of scientific evidence, accumulated over
time and space which shows the mechanism of transmission of smallpox
is due to contact with the virus particles shed from the infected.
Further, whereas I certainly don't endorse science by consensus, It is
absurd to think that the huge number of scientifically trained
individuals could be so wrong about this public health measure.
For example, I think it's interesting how you respond to his position by
saying "You suggest things that fly in the face of hundreds of years of
experience and countless health professionals around the world." as if
that's reason enough to call him ("dude") paranoid.
After all, "flying in the face of hundreds of years of experience" is
what Traditional Asian medical practitioners accuse Western medicine of
every day.
again a poor choice of words. Substitute for experience "a body of
data proven beyond doubt via the scientific method".
I think that sticking "to one thing at a time so we can be sure that we
agree on the data" is what I would have said, irrespective of my
knowledge or experience and in general, I would have agreed more with
you, had you opened your response with this sentence and left out the
accusation.
yea, I should probably apologize- so Kirk, sorry, I shouldn't get so
grouchy. It is just a little fatigue from dealing with what I
perceive to be an unscientific anti-vaccination position.
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Re: [Biofuel] Reinventing Medicine -- book
Whoa! You did that?! Mike Weaver wrote: Hogwash. I gave Redler a wart just by thinking about it. Ask him. bob allen wrote: Study of Heart Patients Sees No Power in Prayer http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5315333 Kirk McLoren wrote: *Reinventing Medicine by *Larry Dossey http://www.amazon.com/s/002-5739560-3156800?ie=UTF8index=booksrank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterankfield-author-exact=Larry%20Dossey [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway
Kind sir, Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself entirely outdone by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the advice of my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the loo for a bath. Ta ta, - Redler Martin Kemple wrote: Thanks Mike! Intriguing perspective. Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') proclivity for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on the one extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape from. Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin? Know what I mean? That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different than anybody else has ever been. What's up with that? I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a dark magnet : o -MK On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote: Martin, Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization.Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came. Thecivilizations youmentioned were content withtechnical developments that required only what was immediately availableto them fromtheir environment.In my opinionthat's something which our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able toappreciate. AsE. F.Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions whichdoes more harm than good. It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilizationby a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees,a patent of my ownand a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry. I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However,to put things in perspective,one needs to ask ifthe work of particular inventorsare a measure of progress in acivilization (irrespective of politics): Could any of these people have been able to do what they did without the work of their predecessors and thecivilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control andgrew from their ownnatural curiosity? Tesla and Edison represent twofundamental ideologiesanda broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the work ofpeople born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him. I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can'tjudge people likeJonas Salk, J. RobertOppenheimer, the Wright Brothersor Richard Gatlinguntil you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development. If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be: If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of"the modern world", who would get the credit? Similar questions include: How high is up? How dark is gray? -Redler Martin Kemple [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question: Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own? Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did? And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it? In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once? -Martin K. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fake News Stories Probed
Kirk, Poking fingers at Pravda and Department for Agitation and Propaganda: Nice observation. In comparison to some Western media, I think Pravda is looking fairly respectable. As most of us in this forum know, the U.S. has entire networks dedicated to "agitation and propaganda". The most well known is called FOX News. Nexus: I agree that Capitalism and Bolshevism can meet, but only as adversaries. In order for that to happen, both need to be present. Considering the condition of organized labor and a return to McCarthyism in the US ( http://www.socialistworker.org/2002-2/416/416_08_NewMcCarthyism.shtml), I would call anything resembling Bolshevism in the democratic party (for example) as some kind of quasi-socialism, sympathetic to labor but loyal to big business - and fake. My interpretation of your post: You wrote: "greed, unchecked, vies to overawe and enslave a receptive populace". Using money to manufacture consent with assistance from large corporations can be done in almost any fashion. The US could have projected a kind of quasi-socialism but, with the help of McCarthy's legacy and the cold war, the image chosen looks more like fascism. In any event, I don't see any signs of Bolshevism and barely a glimmer of the democrats flavor of quasi-socialism. What makes a populace enslaved and receptive? In our case, the manufacture of consent is also the manufacture of fear with a promise of protection from a paternal government. -Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Made what up? Soviet Russia jokes aside (who, by the way, had an entire Department for Agitation and Propaganda [wikipedia.org]), we are at that uncanny nexus where Capitalism and Bolshevism meet: where greed, unchecked, vies to overawe and enslave a receptive populace. Prescription? Strap in; when the government fears the governed, voting won't get you anywhere. Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You made that up. Kirk McLoren wrote: And they used to poke fingers at Pravda. Kirk | Fake News Stories Probed | | from the truthiness dept. | | posted by samzenpus on Wednesday August 16, @20:24 (The Media) | | http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/16/2327242 | ++ An anonymous reader writes "From the article: "The U.S. Federal Communications Commission has begun an [0]investigation of the use of video news releases, sometimes called "fake news," at U.S. television stations. Video news releases are packaged stories paid for by businesses or interest groups. They use actors to portray reporters and use the same format as television news stories."" Discuss this story at: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=06/08/16/2327242 Links: 0. http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006/08/16/fake-news-probe.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Liquid Bombers Prove: They Hate Our Freedoms
"I wouldnt join his mailing list if you want to avoid getting on a government list." Thanks. I'll keep that in mind. -Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Thought this article fwd to me had some very interesting comments about the supposed bombings. Is the chemistry valid Bob? If so we see this is more spin and fear mongering. The comment they hate our freedoms probably explains why Moslems are invading Switzerland as you read this ;) A caveat - I wouldnt join his mailing list if you want to avoid getting on a government list. He israther critical of the current regime. Kirk Subject: Liquid Bombers Prove: They Hate Our Freedoms www.ConspiracyPenPal.com Nickel Rant tm : Liquid Bombers Prove: "They Hate Our Freedoms!" by Edgar J. Steele August 19, 2006 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway
It doesn't matter Weaver! I'm sure it was invented so long ago that it's expired and in the public domain by now. So, there's nothing you can do about it! You're not the boss of me! Mike Weaver wrote: I invented it. So try not to piss me off. -Mike Big Head Weaver Michael Redler wrote: Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented. - Redler (average person) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] the tax man cometh
Double taxation! That's a good point Thor. Thor Burfine wrote: Well lets see 12,000 miles a year @ 42 mpg thats 285 gallons but wait blend it and you have B20 185 *.2 = 57 gallons only half was used on the road 57 / 2 = 28.5 @ 22.5 cents a gallon = $6.41 Send it to them in pennies, good gooey pennies like the ones you get from a kid eating ice cream Better yet, tell them you paid the tax when you bought the oil from WalMart They are the ones collecting the Tax on the veggie oil you bought and therfor its dual taxation if you have to pay tax for using it Oh wait, this is Arkansas the home of Wallyworld, that will be fun. From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 6:25 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] the tax man cometh Hey Bob, I think your situation reinforces the idea that fuel/energy dependence isn't an OPEC thingand that the problem is home grown. If corporations and local governments didn't work together to limit the number of sources, you couldn't effectively tax it. I'm not against taxes, just how I'm taxed and what it's spent on (i.e. 750,000,000,000 on "defense"). If my local government tried something like that with me, I'd seriously consider producer gas as a fuel. Let them try and noodle out a method of measuring and taxing CO and H2 by the cubic foot. The perfect fuel for a bureaucracy. The longer one waits to measure it, the less fuel their is to measure. :-) - Redler P.S. I went to http://www.ozarker.org/and noticed that there is no "Recreational Bob" link. Shame on you. bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the tax applies to any fuel produced and used on-road. I don't have the letter here in front of me, but as I recall it wanted to know how much I produced total and how much was used as on-road motor fuel. The tax is retroactive for 2005. DHAJOGLO wrote: Does the tax apply even if you are producing it as an "additive?" -dave On Monday, August 07, 2006 4:13 PM, bob allen wrote: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:13:54 -0500 From: bob allen To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] the tax man cometh I recently received a letter from the Arkansas Department of finance. I am to herewith submit 22.5 cents per gallon of biodiesel produced. I guess that this happened because of an article that appeared in a statewide newspaper, concerning my manufacture of biodiesel as a student project. (Some pin-headed commercial producer felt that I should be paying my fair share of taxes), which I don't mind. Now if I can just figure out how to get the 50 cent-a-gallon produce tax credit. -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it while you can
The caption under his picture reads "Former President Jimmy Carter says that Bush has encouraged Israel and Hezbollah to attack." Absolutely. 1.) Fabricated provocation of war by Hezbollah through selective recollection of the events. 2.) Reports of Iranian fighters killed in Lebanon 3.) Intense media coverage by FOX to raise sympathy for Israel's government 4.) Increased media coverage by FOX of Iranian saber rattling by it's leadership. 5.) Continued media coverage by FOX of suspicious activities in Syria. So, what do you think of a U.S. state department campaign for a war against Iran, starting with a proxy war against Lebanon, then Syria? In my opinion, Bush is capable of anything and although I hesitated to speculate, I also don't put it past him or some of the religious zealots running the federal government to execute such a radical plan. Mike fox mulder wrote: his over all view is that he is sickened by the pictures he sees, on sky news every hour, of burned and maimed babies and children. the double standard of the countries like UK and USA is apparent. Please listen to the former president Carter who is an intellectual not lunatic like Bush. Source: cnn http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/05/carter.mideast.ap/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Juan, According the the post (below), you're certainly on the right track! Well done! - Redler Posted earlier on [EMAIL PROTECTED] A typical modern room air conditioner has a thing called a slinger ring fan, which splashes the water removed from the room over the condenser fan coil. It is supposed to improve the efficiency by reducing the temperature of the condenser, which lowers the condenser temperature and refrigerant pressure and thereby reducing the amount of work required for the pump to compress a unit mass of refrigerant. But there are lots of assumptions: like: what is the room humidity? What is the outside air humidity? Is there accumulated water so the slinger water has the maximum effect (i.e. is the rating a steady state, or turn-on transient rating)? I know there are standard conditions, and someone probably could put them here as a reference. But I also would assume that, by human nature, the manufacturers generally will list their ratings in the most favorable operating conditions. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Agreed. Good idea. - Redler Jason Katie wrote: collect the condenser water in a bucket or start a bucket from the water mains , and put a small pump (wiper pump or other handy pumping device) and spill the collected water back over the exchanger coil, doesnt matter how much boils off or how hot it gets in the bucket, it will just evaporate faster releasing heat into the outside air and not your house. you might have to re-load the bucket once in a while, but that would be better than having a continuous flow of mains water. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap ...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Brilliant! I like it. -Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses a spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not raining. I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot condenser, the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour of working time of the ac unit. If you need more water from start and if your house has running water with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of the condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than a few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the change of 1 degree Celsius. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: HSI e-Alert - On January 1st, the Area 181 oil boom begins...
(IMO) it looks like a numbers game. They mention the number of barrels and how long it would power every bus, van, car and SUV but neglected to mention everything that consumes that 20 million barrels. Is this possible or are they just lying? - Redler bob allen wrote: To put the AREA 181 in perspective, the estimated 1.3 billion barrels of oil represent about two months supply in the US, based on current consumption of about 20 million barrels of oil per day. Reality doesn't square with the statement below that Kirk McLoren wrote: snip There’s enough oil there, according to the U.S. Commerce Department, to fuel every bus, van, car and SUV in the entire United States for at least the next 17 years. And enough gas, according to/ The/ /Washington Post/, “to heat every home in the United States for the next 80 years.” In Area 181 alone, the /Washington Post/ estimates there are 1.3 billion barrels of oil and 5.8 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. That’s why, according to the U.S. Minerals and Management Service (MMS), Area 181 “received more than twice as many expressions of interest from the [energy] industry of any other area...” Anadarko Oil chairman Robert Allison said of Area 181: “We’ve been peering over the fence for the past 13 years -- and at last we’re being allowed inside.” The geological analysis has been done. The companies involved know exactly where the oil is... And when these bans expire, Area 181 will become the most profitable oil property in the U.S. for decades to come. Anadarko is one of three major U.S. oil companies that won government bids for drilling leases in Area 181. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Brilliant! I like it. -Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses a spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not raining. I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot condenser, the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour of working time of the ac unit. If you need more water from start and if your house has running water with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of the condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than a few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the change of 1 degree Celsius. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Only possible for a few? Roughly speaking, if you filled your (50 gallon?) tub once with cold city water, absorbed the heat in your small house or apartment by transferring it into the tub using a moderate size air conditioner (12000 to 15000 Btu/hr), I'm sure you wouldn't be causing a regional drought. Perhaps that water could be put to use for something else. Perhaps the water could be stored until used for something else. Granted, maintaining temperature would still need to be addressed. However, that wouldn't be the most costly part of the process and switching to a more conventional method for maintaining a comfortable temperature might still allow one to see a significant energy savings. As for a cool suit, I think the idea has merit. However, my dinner parties get smaller all the time after asking all my guests to "suit-up" instead of cooling the air around them (not to mention my closet space being lost from all those suits). :-) In all seriousness, I don't agree that this is only possible for a few and in some cases (like in nearby New York City) it might help save some lives. People are collapsing from heat exhaustion and the city is experiencing periodic blackouts from power usage (i.e. air conditioners). In an emergency situation, the water consumption would be the equivalent of everyone taking a bath at the same time (ah!). When I see fire hydrants being cracked open in urban neighborhoods to relieve people from the heat, I wonder what kind of strain it would put on the water supply. But, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm still trying to figure out why (according to your previous post) sewers need to be good heat sinks. When everything is said and done, it's just an idea. Unproven and maybe impractical, this forum is the place to "think out loud" and see what happens with such ideas. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
O.K. so this is getting old now. Your first criticism said that such an idea wouldn't work because sewers aren't good heat sinks without acknowledging that the properties of the drain are irrelevant. Then you suggest that lowering the temperature of a room and maintaining the temperature of a room require the same energy (my scenario also takes place during an emergency, meaning you took it out of context). Then you begin to talk about "capillary tubes" when nothing within the machine or it's cycle has changed and the only suggestion is/was the medium for removing heat from the condenser - in this case, water. My other challenge to you past observations (i.e. sewers and heat sinks) have not been directly addressed yet. I concede that water usage would certainly be an issue. Whether or not it's an issue that can be overcome is still debatable (IMO). I also concede other valid points which may prevent this idea from being viable (see my earlier post: "When everything is said and done, it's just an idea."). However, mixed in with your good points are other comments which are reminiscent of a common pissing contest. Your "Can't get there from here" explanation is half baked and the theoretical proof addresses non-issues (see above). Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: 50 gallons x 8 pound per gallon = 400 pounds. Since 1 BTU raises 1 pound 1 degree F we can put 400 BTU in the tub per degree F 12000/400 =30 degrees. So it seems a tub is good for 1 to 2 hours depending on inlet temperature. So if every household in NYC draws a bathtub every hour and dumps same what is the outcome? Couple this to the problem that the average window air conditioner is a capillary tube system and relies on condenser pressure to force the refrigerant through the capillary tube. Low hiside pressure means refrigerant flow is curtailed and our pump and two fans chug away but with 2/3 or less refrigerant flow. That doesnt help brown/black outs. Bottom line - Cant get there from here. Requires engineering for a different system. There are water cooled condensers in operation - but they were sold that way. Putting condensate water on the coil is a good assist. It is good for another reason, it is "rainwater" and wont eat the aluminum fins. One could design for lower electrical consumption. Larger heat exchangers are a logical start. Also is dehumidification needed? Need to know that. Reducing solar load is a good start as well. Any windows with exposure to direct sun? People at dinner parties can afford all the electricity they want. Sad but true. The suffering on subsistence income can profit from inexpensive fixes. A "koldvest" could be a lifesaver. Simple is elegant. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only possible for a few? Roughly speaking, if you filled your (50 gallon?) tub once with cold city water, absorbed the heat in your small house or apartment by transferring it into the tub using a moderate size air conditioner (12000 to 15000 Btu/hr), I'm sure you wouldn't be causing a regional drought. Perhaps that water could be put to use for something else. Perhaps the water could be stored until used for something else. Granted, maintaining temperature would still need to be addressed. However, that wouldn't be the most costly part of the process and switching to a more conventional method for maintaining a comfortable temperature might still allow one to see a significant energy savings. As for a cool suit, I think the idea has merit. However, my dinner parties get smaller all the time after asking all my guests to "suit-up" instead of cooling the air around them (not to mention my closet space being lost from all those suits). :-) In all seriousness, I don't agree that this is only possible for a few and in some cases (like in nearby New York City) it might help save some lives. People are collapsing from heat exhaustion and the city is experiencing periodic blackouts from power usage (i.e. air conditioners). In an emergency situation, the water consumption would be the equivalent of everyone taking a bath at the same time (ah!). When I see fire hydrants being cracked open in urban neighborhoods to relieve people from the heat, I wonder what kind of strain it would put on the water supply. But, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm still trying to figure out why (according to your previous post) sewers need to be good heat sinks. When everything is said and done, it's just an idea. Unproven and maybe impractical, this forum is the pl
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Good point Joe. Thanks. I wonder if there are other options for city dwellers. My focus in this thread has been a search for the benefits of geoexchange without the hole. What if the water were stored and used later (in limited quantities, of course). Perhaps that would negate the legal issues. Other than that, I got nuthin'. ...on to the next topic I guess. -Redler Joe Street wrote: Hey Mike; A lot of energy goes in to cleaning city water and in this day and age where water is getting scarce using treated water for cooling is not too cool (pun) but as I said in my area it is illegal to do it and I suspect in other places too. Joe Mike Redler wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was.. was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
ted that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment).I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote:Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink.The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts.The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et alSure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible.Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative.-Redlerbob allen wrote:It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.[LINK: [LINK: http://www.geoexchange.org/] http://www.geoexchange.org/] [LINK: http://www.geoexchange.org/] http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote:Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here.I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F.It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first. ...any thoughts?-Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hey Juan, looks like you got an itch. :-) - Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Joe Street, Mike Redler and all. About a lifter pump for the amount of water required for evaporation, it could be a windshield washer pump I think is enough but you need a transformer with a rectifier to have 13 volts DC from 110 or 220 AC. They might be expensive unless they come from a junkyard. A tip: Some Peugeot models has a long windshield sprinkler with many holes. Regarding the water, it starts to condense and collects around 15 minutes after the AC is on (at 70% R.H.or higher) and then it is splashed with the fan blades if the relative humidity is around 50% there is almost no water condensate. I usually get minus 2 degrees in the air cold side if I am using water evaporation and the compressor works less. My AC unit condenser is made aluminium, with the plug in place, the tray collects water but remember to clean the tray more often, I got some algae growing in it because they used the dust as substrate and the sky light is available to them, here more than 200 days of the year are sunny days or with few clouds :) Algae might not grow on copper evaporators but it may get full of dead insects in some places if not cleaned. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Yea. Juan's idea got my attention too. The inefficiencies due to the latent heat of vaporization go "poof!" since the final phase of that H2O is...humidity, right? That is to say, in a perfect world, vapor turned to condensation then back to vapor again after throwing it on the condenser (understanding that that there is no free lunch - 2nd law of thermo.). Re: "Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois?" :-) -Redler Joe Street wrote: Mike Redler wrote: snip Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan. - Redler Hey Mikey; Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois? Damn. I like this list! LOL. Actually Juan has the best idea. The condensate from the evaporator is pretty clean by definition and has got me to thinking about how to use a little lift pump to bring it out to a mister on the condenser coil outside. The lift pump can be runn off the same contactor that is used to power up the compressor. I could even rig up a little float valve that would add a little R.O. water to the bucket used for the lift pump incase the condensate is not enough. Hmm I should try this. It wouldn't be too hard. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hi everyone, As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted. I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day. That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded. I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here. I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F. It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first. ...any thoughts? -Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down. http://www.geoexchange.org/ now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know. Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone, As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted. I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day. That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded. I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here. I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F. It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first. ...any thoughts? -Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.http://www.geoexchange.org/ now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here.I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F.It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first....any thoughts?-Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Darryll, you wrote: “Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too.” As we discussed earlier, the advantages of replacing an IC motor with an electric motor exist with conditions that require constantly changing demands for power - demands that the IC motor can’t closely match. Those conditions include frequent acceleration and deceleration. The advantages of regenerative braking exist under exactly the same conditions. So, if your statement is true, you can’t suggest that less braking causes regen to have little advantage without also suggesting that electric motors have little advantage under the same conditions. -Redler Darryl McMahon wrote: Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too. An Electrek - wow that takes me back. So ugly they were cute. How's the body (plastic I think) holding up after all these years? Darryl [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead
Zeke wrote: "But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen... But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions." Zeke, I agree that AC is not the best choice for conversions. I just wanted to add that AC motors can have efficiencies comparable to DC but, only when run at higher speeds. If you slow them down and the speeds approach zero, variable frequency drives will still deliver a high inductive load. I think you and some others on this list already know what happens when you deliver AC near zero Hz through an inductive load. -Redler Zeke Yewdall wrote: I've seen one or two civic conversions. One late 80's, and one mid 90's era. Seemed pretty nice, especially the 90's one which used a 9" motor and a 120 volt battery pack, which is generally used in the small pickup conversions -- it could easily turf the tires if you launched to quickly. But both used Advanced DC motors which don't allow regen... But they are only about $1,600 for the motor, and probably under $4k for a complete drive system, compared to $32k for a single purchase of a AC Propulsion complete drive system -- so you can see why everyone uses the series DC motors for conversions. I've also got a line on an old Electrek, which uses a shunt wound GE motor, so it's got regen too. I almost bought it before I moved to the mountains where I have a 4,000 vertical feet commute. It will make it, but only at 10 or 15mph or so, which given the speed limit of 35, and traffic speed of 45, would annoy all the SUV drivers... Putting NiMH batteries in it would probably improve it a bit by dropping the curb weight, but those are pricey too. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Have You Hugged Your Hummer Today?
Hi Kirk, I think I may have misunderstood. If I did and you are saying that comparing hybrids and non-hybrids, irrespective of the fuel they burn, I agree. ...sorry if I missed your point. -Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Comparing a gasoline hybrid with a diesel is apples and oranges. How about comparing a diesel hybrid with a diesel. Kirk JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You folks are all WRONG, This is simply an application of the same economic principals that the current administration is applying to the American Economy - I just used the same formulas they did on the American economy to the Hummer and the Hybrid and the Hummer wins hands down - see it's just like the Pres said the deficit is going down. Whats the matter? What is it you don't get? And if you haven't figured out how it works I have some tax cuts for the rich to sell you. (won't cost you a dime) I won't be around to reply back for awhile I am going to trade in my Honda for a Hummer with a Go Green bumper sticker. NOT Later Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Have You Hugged Your Hummer Today?
Simon mentioned shutting down the engine at stop lights because in Europe, it's commonplace. I travel to Switzerland every year and over there (where rules mean everything - whether written or implied) everybody does it. The benefit of a hybrid does not make itself known on the highway where the power required by the vehicle and delivered by the engine are pretty much matched. It's the inconsistent demands for power in traffic and side roads which cause the engine to continue burning fuel when there is no demand and where an electric motor is best suited. Everyone here knows that the thing making hybrids so promising is the combination of technologies which compliment each other and make the best use of (fuel/energy) resources. (IMO) car companies are just beginning to understand the potential of this simple concept. My proof is the production of relatively low mileage hybrids which (apparently) don't seem to have effective regenerative braking - enhancing the performance of the vehicle by allowing supply and demand to literally become both positive and negative numbers. Another benefit being missed is the option to supply electrical energy from a source of your choosing (i.e. your home electrical outlet). There will be a day (IMO) when home owners expand on the automotive hybrid philosophy by applying it to their homes to which cars will have the ability to become an integral part. The rebels out there (and on this list) are already laying the foundation with solar, wind, modified hybrid cars, and improvised off-grid systems. - Redler robert and benita rabello wrote: Simon Fowler MADUR-SALES wrote: I beg to differ. There is nothing to stop you switching the engine off when standing still. We have signs requesting you to do so at some level crossings as well. You're right, and I concede that point. However, I've never seen anyone do this at a stop light. The vast majority of people remain content to let their engines idle. In addition, the diesel and non-hybrid gas engines must burn fuel (and hence, pollute the air) when moving. At city speeds, my hybrid can run on its batteries alone. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Have You Hugged Your Hummer Today?
Is it me or, do the words in this thread remind you of an earlier discussion about ethanol and a guy named "Dave"? Maybe there's a club where certain people meet and put there heads together to discourage public interest in anything new and progressive. You know...something like the O.D.O.D. or the Old Dog's Old Tricks Club. ...my $.02 :-) - Redler robert and benita rabello wrote: Alan Petrillo wrote: The good folks at Reason.org are at it yet again. :-( http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060719.shtml What a load of crap! Nowhere NEAR the EPA fuel economy estimates? My hybrid runs within spitting distance of its fuel economy estimates, even at highway speeds with the air conditioner on. And since when has a Hummer lasted 300 000 miles? (Transported in a C 5 to Iraq and back, maybe . . .) Go ahead folks. Buy a Chevy Aveo. It will last five years and be worth nothing when it's done. As for hybrids, Toyota can't keep them in stock up here. They've ALREADY sold their entire production run of 2007 Camry hybrids. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FYI - I'm back from Nova Scotia. What a great time!
Hi Darryl, et al Thanks. I agree. Time away from the computer was tough sometimes. Bell museum: Yes! It was great (especially the hydrofoil exhibit)! Thanks for asking. I looked at some of the places you mentioned and put your message in a place where I can't lose it. I hope to see some of the same places some day. Thanks again. -Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, glad to hear you enjoyed Cape Breton. I hope you got to the Bell Museum while in Baddeck. Fascinating stuff. I am still catching up with e-mail and other things that accumulated while on vacation with my wife and son. In retrospect, 2 weeks without computers was refreshing and pleasant. (I only had to look into fixing one in the course of my travels, and fortunately was able to delegate that task to my son.) Sadly, most of our trip was fuelled without biofuels - ethanol blended fuel was hard to find in the Canadian Maritimes. However, we managed to find several points of interest in our travels. On Prince Edward Island, we visited the North Cape wind power complex (Canadian Atlantic Wind Testing Site). There are some sixteen megawatt-plus turbines installed here, and all were producing for the duration of our visit. Again (I have visited other large turbine sites), I found the turbines to be majestic, not an eyesore. About 50 metres from the base of one of the turbines, we could hear nothing from the turbine over the sound of the wind itself. This site produces about 5% of the province's electricity, and there are plans to expand it to about 10%. Another site (West Cape) is currently being evaluated. There was supposed to be a wind-hydrogen pilot plant/project here as well, but apparently public funding and private-sector enthusiasm has waned since the announcement about a year ago, and there is nothing here yet beyond the PR display panels. In Nova Scotia, we found several points of interest. The first thing I noted was that many of the houses now have central air conditioning units, an extreme rarity a decade ago. The residents are agreed that summer temperatures are significantly warmer now than ten years ago, and wind speeds are increasing. In fact, there is a wind turbine on a ridge not far from Scotsburn, near my mother's original home. Summer kitchens in older homes are being renovated and put back into use. Both my uncle and my cousin have drain-back solar water heating systems in place on the rooftops of their houses, and my cousin has installed an electro-thermal heating unit in his house (it consumes electrical power at night at off-peak rates and stores it in a thermal mass - may also include phase-change material - to provide heat to the structure during the day without consuming electricity at peak demand periods). They also have an electric hot water tank that can heat with both elements at off-peak times, but only use one element at peak times. Just interesting bits of technology I have not seen here at home. We visited a steam-powered saw mill. Heat for the boiler was produced from either sawdust or the scrap wood from the side slabs that are by-products of the milling process. Biofuelled and re-use of waste product produced on-site. Surplus bark and side slabs were sold locally as firewood. The facility also provided hot bath water to employees from the waste heat of the steam engine operation. Fire protection was based on a large number of water barrels mounted on the ridge-line of the roof connected to hoses in the building. Furniture and other wood products were manufactured on the second floor of the structure. We visited a grist mill that was originally powered by run-of-river water power utilizing a small mill pond. Interesting note, the water wheel on the side of the building is a fake. The mill originally ran using a submerged water turbine (more efficient), but a submerged turbine doesn't have the tourist appeal of a visible overshoot water wheel, so that was added as part of the refurbishing as a working museum. Still, the complexity of the inner workings with multiple grinding operations (four), elevators with auto-shut-offs, drum sifter, etc. all working off belts from one main power shaft was a tribute to ingenuity of the miller. Clutches, gears, transmissions all fashioned from wood, leather and rope. The physics and mechanics of the millstones were also fascinating. The whole operation ran on the equivalent of less than 5 hp. Interestingly, the miller was also a forester - he maintained a significant stand of maple trees to be used to fire a kiln to dry and smoke the oats before they were milled. Maple syrup and sugar products were another by-product of that operation. We visited the Tidal Power Pilot Project at Annapolis Royal. This plant produces up to 20 megawatts of power, and is operational about 11 hours a day. It operates only when the tide is going out, due to the orientation of the
Re: [Biofuel] The turning of America into Amerika
Thanks D. I think it's presented in a way that brings clarity and depth to a position that seems too ridiculous to consider (so was Mein Kampf at one time). Nazi influence has been around since before the war. A large German immigrant community and open expressions of public support for the party from people like Charles Lindberg was only the beginning. There was actually a Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden, NYC (http://www.traces.org/americanbund.html) in 1939 by the German-American Bund. After the war, U.S. recruitment of former Nazis was aggressive. Here's an article I found to be interesting and compliments your source pretty well (IMO). It mentions operation "Paper Clip" among other ambitions to recruit talent. That talent included former members of the Reich's intelligence community and their operatives. http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/03/springtime-for-atta_31.html I can't vouch for the whole article since it's a new source and I simply don't have all the facts to back it up completely. Still, portions of it that I do have a knowledge of seem to be right-on. -Redler D. Mindock wrote: See how (URL below) the Hitler model is being used to Nazify the USA. The parallels are there, very clearly. All that is needed to really make it an in-your-facerealityis another fake "terrorist" action like 9/11. Then the brutality will be everywhere. We will be subject to the whims of Dubya, his wicked regime, other unseen forces. Peace, D. Mindock http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step4.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] FYI - I'm back from Nova Scotia. What a great time!
Hi everyone, As someone who never placed much emphasis on the meaning of weddings, believes that a marriage is left to the interpretation of those who decide to make such a commitment and that it should NEVER include or require a government form or record, I conceded on July 15th. Sometimes it's good to pick fights wisely for the sake of maintaining harmony in one's (mostly conservative) family. The good news is that our wedding was a blast! It was an ethnic German (Bavarian) theme and roughly 1/3 of the guests were in traditional garb. That's right Fritz, for the men, that means Lederhosen! Last week, we spent our honeymoon in Baddeck - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and absolutely loved it! I don't know if Bob reported back on his experience in that region but, I was amazed at their effort to conserve and protect nature. We took day trips on the Cabot Trail, hiked, bicycled and Kayaked. We had almost daily sightings of bald eagles and two close encounters with moose. We sailed on a schooner and spotted dolphins, puffins and other wildlife. Most importantly, we tried our best to leave only footprints and take only memories. I'll try to get the pictures up somewhere in case some of you are curious. -Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BUSH'S RESUME
Researching "The Resume" from snopes.com: (http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/resume.asp) Critical of "Resume": MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "web.archive.org" claiming to be http://www.crossbearer.com/opinion/resume.html In support of "Resume": http://idontfeelsogood.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_idontfeelsogood_archive.html Interesting comparison. Although, you may not be surprised by the selectiveness of comments and filtering of sources from crossbearer.com. -Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: RESUME: GEORGE W. BUSH 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington , DC 20520 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pimento rears his ugly head again. :-(
Pimentel gets around. I heard an interview with him from a surprising source, WBAI in NYC. He was given lots of time to tell his audience everything he believes (or is paid to believe) and the interviewer, not knowing the credibility of the source, had no challenging questions. Here is an email I sent to the radio station in response to the interview (posted earlier on the biofuels group): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg62060.html - Redler P.S. I thought his name was spelled Pimpin'-oil Mike Weaver wrote: Isn't Pimento what goes in a olive? AS a Martini drinker, I don't see a problem - now, if it is Pimenthal... Alan Petrillo wrote: http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/38540/ AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was..was..smart car coming to US in 2008
Hey Joe, You wrote: There's definitely something to be said for having a lot of mass in the vehicle in an accident though. Absolutely. There is much to be said both above and below the surface. By that I mean the more visible advantages to the driver of a massive SUV (at the expense of whoever he/she smashes into) and what motivates people to buy larger and larger vehicles in the name of safety. In a culture of fear, it has the flavor of an arms race. When one makes the argument that SUV's are safer by virtue of their mass, the only way the argument has any merit is in situations when the object they hit is movable (again, alluding to a cost to the driver and passengers of the smaller vehicle). Mike Joe Street wrote: There's definitely something to be said for having a lot of mass in the vehicle in an accident though. It's not that a small vehicle can't be made strong but the acceleration felt by the occupants of a light vehicle is much worse than in a really massive one. Joe Mike Redler wrote: That's true even if you don't consider the fact that SUV's in combination with the soccer mom's who think they are safer, make everyone less safe - including those driving Smarts and Volvos. Mike Weaver wrote: It's a common misperception that SUV's are safer than smaller cars. It's not true look up number of fatalities at iihs.org or hldi.org... Terry Dyck wrote: Smart Cars are considered one of the safest cars on the road next to a Volvo. The frame is solid steel. Large SUV's are the most dangerous cars because they roll easily. Don't let size determine safety, it does not work that way. Terry Dyck From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was..was..smart car coming to US in 2008 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:01:51 -0400 I'd stay off the highway, heck, I'm scared to ride my Harley on the interstate... mark manchester wrote: I hate to see these things on the highway, looks like people flying along under an umbrella. Surely can speed along, this is pretty much a four-wheel hooded motorcycle. Incredibly cute, though, and comfy. Very popular here in Toronto, but there's zero trunk space. Jesse From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:44:51 -0400 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was..was..smart car coming to US in 2008 I've been thinking that what I need would be a two seater with a fairly large storage space as I usually go downtown with servers and stuff. My Golf works ok with the seats down, but if the whole vehicle were designed for hauling small and medium loads a Smart Car design would be perfect. Now think of a diesel/electric hybrid... -Weaver AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Haken, I've seen the 2 seater up really close, took a look inside, watched it being parked in a miniscule spot, been behind one and in front of one in traffic, haven't driven one yet. They are really cool little cars. I think it is going to fill an important niche market for couriers, deliveries, fleets and businesses that like the fact that it sips thimbles of gasoline. Still, in order to wean Americans off of their obsession with suvs, it might be a good idea if the company made a heftier 4 seater utility that would appeal to the suv crowd and still sip at the pump. Image is everything and if the average joe thinks that they can get one of these green machines and still be able to lug around the stuff that they do AND save at the pump, great. It's the old having cake and eating it too syndrome but people respond to it, regards tallex Smart Car Coming to US in 2008 Launch by DaimlerChrysler http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1151818384.news
Re: [Biofuel] witness for the prosecution
If a comprehensive energy strategy includes all the alternatives to petroleum, and it's implemented as such, the burden to the grid (as we know it) would also change. (IMO) cars, homes, towns cities, etc. would benefit from a hybrid philosophy, especially if there are no preconceived notions as to the composition of a hybrid. It's just assumed to be an amalgam of solar, wind, hyro, biofuel, etc. (IMO), if current flowed in many directions instead of one, we adopt a modular approach and brake it down into smaller community sub-grids, the distribution of power might be more homogeneous and a resulting decrease in line losses would reduce the burden on both the grid and the source, allowing electric cars (for example) to be integrated into such a system. ...my $.02 - Redler Paul S Cantrell wrote: Kirk, The grid is maxed out during peak times in some places (California, the Northeast) like on summer afternoons when it is hot, but the idea would be to charge the cars at night or off-peak times when power generation, transmission and distribution are in excess. Many electric utilities across the country offer 'time of use' rates that charge different per kWh prices depending on the hour of the day it is used. On peak is most expensive followed by a shoulder peak and off peak is the cheapest. I agree that distributed renewable, co-gen generation is the long term solution,but I think in most places plugin hybrids are more than feasible. On 7/7/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: from link - snip DF Because the electric grid is in place This is not like fusion power or even developing an electric car. I think there's a gentleman who's developed a [plug-in] kit ... so Detroit can't say they don't know how to do it. -- The grid is maxed out in many cases. Can anyone say brownout or blackout? An electric car powered by the cogen that heats the house and hot water - maybe But existing grid - sorry,no Even if you string more wire and add plants they will be coal which pollutes more than oil and you have the losses at each conversion step and distribution as well. I am for an electric car but the power supply will probably have to be solar. Solar thermal to be more exact. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was..was..smart car coming to US in 2008
That's true even if you don't consider the fact that SUV's in combination with the soccer mom's who think they are safer, make everyone less safe - including those driving Smarts and Volvos. Mike Weaver wrote: It's a common misperception that SUV's are safer than smaller cars. It's not true look up number of fatalities at iihs.org or hldi.org... Terry Dyck wrote: Smart Cars are considered one of the safest cars on the road next to a Volvo. The frame is solid steel. Large SUV's are the most dangerous cars because they roll easily. Don't let size determine safety, it does not work that way. Terry Dyck From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was..was..smart car coming to US in 2008 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:01:51 -0400 I'd stay off the highway, heck, I'm scared to ride my Harley on the interstate... mark manchester wrote: I hate to see these things on the highway, looks like people flying along under an umbrella. Surely can speed along, this is pretty much a four-wheel hooded motorcycle. Incredibly cute, though, and comfy. Very popular here in Toronto, but there's zero trunk space. Jesse From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 10:44:51 -0400 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was..was..smart car coming to US in 2008 I've been thinking that what I need would be a two seater with a fairly large storage space as I usually go downtown with servers and stuff. My Golf works ok with the seats down, but if the whole vehicle were designed for hauling small and medium loads a Smart Car design would be perfect. Now think of a diesel/electric hybrid... -Weaver AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Haken, I've seen the 2 seater up really close, took a look inside, watched it being parked in a miniscule spot, been behind one and in front of one in traffic, haven't driven one yet. They are really cool little cars. I think it is going to fill an important niche market for couriers, deliveries, fleets and businesses that like the fact that it sips thimbles of gasoline. Still, in order to wean Americans off of their obsession with suvs, it might be a good idea if the company made a heftier 4 seater utility that would appeal to the suv crowd and still sip at the pump. Image is everything and if the average joe thinks that they can get one of these green machines and still be able to lug around the stuff that they do AND save at the pump, great. It's the old having cake and eating it too syndrome but people respond to it, regards tallex Smart Car Coming to US in 2008 Launch by DaimlerChrysler http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1151818384.news ---Original Message--- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was..smart car coming to US in 2008 Sent: 02 Jul '06 08:22 Tallex, The market for 250 pound people is very much smaller in Europe than in US and I think that it is not a primary target for SMART cars. Do not only look at one, try it and you will be surprised on how spacious it is for 2 people and how well it transport/park for urban dwellers. I do however agree on the problems in US, it is little space for the oversized chip and snack packs, that seems to be the essentials for US commuters. I am not a small person 186 centimeter and 96 kilo (which is too much), but I fit well in a Smart. I did however not consider the image problem. Hakan At 09:15 02/07/2006, you wrote: That's great Haken, so if they already have a four seater, it is not to much of a stretch to do a minivan version as well and still be considered a smart car? Also, I've seen the two seater and while really cool, there is no way you are going to fit 2 - 250 pound people side by side, they would look like circus clowns stuffed into the seats. People
Re: [Biofuel] US Marine Assaults Protesters in Connecticut!
It's beginning to reach local independent media. http://www.newhavenindependent.org/archives/2006/07/whats_the_bat_f.php http://www.thecornerreport.com/index.php?title=peace_activists_to_protest_alleged_marinmore=1c=1tb=1pb=1 http://www.thecornerreport.com/index.php?title=peace_activists_to_protest_alleged_marinmore=1c=1tb=1pb=1 FYI: Full report from DOD - spying on peace/counter recruitment activities: http://www.sldn.org/binary-data/SLDN_ARTICLES/pdf_file/3028.pdf - Redler P.S. I think your right-on Mike. Live video would have a huge impact Mike Weaver wrote: Well, for one, we geeks need to get moving so that this sort of thing can be broadcast live wirelessly - if 20 of the protesters had live video cameras I imagine it would change things. Thoughts? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like it! Been there. Done that. It was an Oliver North book signing at a christian bookstore no less. Sometimes the righteous just don't care if they push you into rushing automobile traffic. Of course we all know, that's what Jesus would do, not. First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. --- Mahatma Gandhi Pity the man who makes himself out to be more than he is or empowered to be. Todd Swearingen snip... On June 27th at 5pm five anti-war activists heeded the National Call to Action in support of Lt. Ehren Watada ( http://www.thankyoult.org/) and Suzanne Swift (http://www.suzanneswift.org/) who are soldiers who are facing punishment for refusing to deploy to Iraq. They peacefully chanted and held signs while passing out information on the resisting soldiers and counter-recruitment literature. Although an officer called the police, they engaged in civil discussions with various soldiers and pedestrians and were invited back for the next day when the colonel would be in town. They left chanting We'll be back! See you tomorrow! [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Worldwide oil consumption seen soaring
The bottom line is that the world has to go Hydrogen. Every once in a while we find a post that challenges years of research and discussion and asks everyone to take a giant step back and re-examine ideas on a particular issue long after a consensus has been reached, as if we've missed something. Even though it's discouraging, I would be willing to re-examine an issue if new evidence reveals itself. In fact, I would consider it crucial. But, what's most discouraging is when a forum discusses energy strategy for years, realizes that a comprehensive energy strategy will involve numerous schemes for renewable energy and biofuels, then finds a post in that forum that includes a statement to the effect of: The answer is The oil industry has made us dependent on it, even when it's not the best source of energy for a given application. It has brought men to power who have influenced the highest levels of government to ensure that competitive alternatives are squashed. We've learned that a single energy source which fosters a dependence on it due to the exclusivity of the raw materials or technologies, provides a substitute for our current dependency on oil. At it's worst, we know that such a dependency brings to power those who will encourage a government to help them exploit or even militarily control other countries. Although I keep an open mind toward all energy technologies (including hydrogen), I encourage you not to place all importance on one. -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: You all know perfectly well the answer is Dilithium Crystals. No arguments, please. robert and benita rabello wrote: chem.dd wrote: The bottom line is that the world has to go Hydrogen. Are you SURE you want to go there in this forum? I'd be laughing if your proposition wasn't so sad. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Worldwide oil consumption seen soaring
Re: Nuclear Power One aspect of nuclear power which concerns me (in addition to the overwhelming number of reasons not to support it) is the less publicized situation it creates in terms of ROI. There is a huge investment put into construction and decommission then, an equally huge amount of political pressure to keep it running as long as possible - not only to recover those investments but, to improve upon the the gains and advocate further use of that technology. That translates to risk vs. profit and forces the public to trust those who are making the decisions (i.e. those who are profiting). - Redler I am the decider - G. W. Bush Mike Weaver wrote: chem.dd, Have a look at what Chernobyl is like now. It's not like you really get a second chance when you screw up with nuclear. FWIW, I think if you had started your post with: Here are examples of nulclear power working successfully; the problems that caused Three Mile Island and Chernobyl are now solved - here's the proof: (insert proof) perhaps it merits a second look for these reasons 1,2,3, you would have had a better response. You mention scientific and engineering but then no examples or research. I think you set yourself up to get hammered. And no, I personally don't think nuclear power is a good option, but would read a well-constructed post as to why I'm wrong. -Weaver scientific and engineering, as opposed to the politically correct view, the use of nuclear energy is the solution. ( Please don't scream Three Mile Island and Chernobyl) Fission reactors will have to do until we develop a functional fusion reactor which is by its physics inherently safe. Please let me know your thoughts on this. jtcava wrote: I'm getting the idea that I wouldn't want many of the people here on this online comunity anywhere near me when sh*t happens. It is my outlook that everybody has something to offer in a true survival situation. John Keith Addison wrote: I would think this is the ideal forum for discussing any aspects and options for reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, particularly in terms of sustainability. Indeed it is, as a great deal of previous discussion residing in the list archives will attest, covering, I'm sure, all aspects of the issue. What is truly sad is closed mindedness. Wouldn't you think, David, that's it's perhaps a little closed-minded to arrive at a mature forum such as this and just naturally assume such an obvious subject hasn't been dealt with here before in the last six years? I think the reason Robert would be laughing if only it wasn't so sad is that your argument has had all the substance shot right out of it long ago. It's also a little closed-minded to to assume that it's Robert who's being closed-minded, apparently without checking first to see what he might have posted on the subject before, or even checking his website, though he provides the url. This, eg: http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/p5.htm Ranger Supercharger Project Maybe you owe him an apology. I have to say the same for your views on nuclear power: From an objective scientific and engineering, as opposed to the politically correct view, the use of nuclear energy is the solution. ( Please don't scream Three Mile Island and Chernobyl) Fission reactors will have to do until we develop a functional fusion reactor which is by its physics inherently safe. Please let me know your thoughts on this. That argument has also been shot down thoroughly and many times. I find it a little sad the way you ascribe objections to nuclear power to mere politically correctness. Not objective, eh, no facts? I suggest you go and do some reading, offlist, at the address listed at the end of every message you receive from the list: Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ When you've done that (make sure you do a thorough job), please come back and offer some support for your view that objections to nuclear power have only political correctness to support them. Thankyou. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Death of US Engineering
Engineers have been saying this for years. I'm the chair of a local ASME chapter so, I hear it a lot. In fact I'm representative of the lost jobs mentioned in the article, having lost my last engineering job in September. I forwarded the article to my ASME chapter and received the following [excerpt] comments: "The alarming fact is the exorbitant incomes of CEO's! These folks are not worth millions and more millions atop that. My son, who is a businessman, believes America is sleepwalking. And will be facing economic realities that will send us reeling. What to do?...just what you are encouraging...discuss and plan upon this subject." I think it will take at least a generation to build back the competitive talent pool which was thrown away over the past decade. -Redler D. Mindock wrote: The Death of US Engineering By Paul Craig Roberts The May payroll jobs report released June 2 by the Bureau of Labor Statistics confirms the jobs pattern for the 21st century US economy: employment growth is limited to domestic services. In May the economy created only 67,000 private sector jobs. Job estimates for the previous two months were reduced by 37,000. The new jobs are as follows: professional and business services, 27,000; education and health services, 41,000; waitresses and bartenders, 10,000. Manufacturing lost 14,000 jobs. Total hours worked in the private sector declined in May. Manufacturing hours worked are 6.6 percent less than when the recovery began four and one-half years ago. American economists and policymakers are in denial about the effect of jobs offshoring on US employment. Corporate lobbyists have purchased fraudulent studies from economists that claim offshoring results in more US employment rather than less. The same lobbyists have spread disinformation that the US does not graduate enough engineers and that they must import foreigners on work visas. Lobbyists are currently pushing, as part of the immigration bill, an expansion in annual H-1B work visas from 65,000 to 115,000. The alleged "shortage" of US engineering graduates is inconsistent with reports from Duke University that 30 to 40 percent of students in its master's of engineering management program accept jobs outside the profession. About one-third of engineering graduates from MIT go into careers outside their field. Job outsourcing and work visas for foreign engineers are reducing career opportunities for American engineering graduates and, also, reducing salary scales. When employers allege a shortage of engineers, they mean that there is a shortage of American graduates who will work for the low salaries that foreigners will accept. Americans are simply being forced out of the engineering professions by jobs outsourcing and the importation of foreigners on work visas. Corporate lobbyists and their hired economists are destroying the American engineering professions. American engineering is also under pressure because corporations have moved manufacturing offshore. Design, research and development are now following manufacturing offshore. A country that doesn't make things doesn't need engineers and designers. Corporations that have moved manufacturing offshore fund RD in the countries where their plants have been relocated. Engineering curriculums are demanding. The rewards to the effort are being squeezed out by jobs offshoring and work visas. If the current policy continues of substituting foreign engineers for American engineers, the profession will die in the US. --- Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: paulcraigroberts@ yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Worldwide oil consumption seen soaring
I didn't. Kirk McLoren wrote: WHy would you advocate hydrogen with all its losses. Supercaps are the perfect battery for transportation. More efficient than lead acid too (and no lead) - as for hydrogen who needs 25% system efficiency? Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "The bottom line is that the world has to go Hydrogen." Every once in a while we find a post that challenges years of research and discussion and asks everyone to take a giant step back and re-examine ideas on a particular issue long after a consensus has been reached, as if we've missed something. Even though it's discouraging, I would be willing to re-examine an issue if new evidence reveals itself. In fact, I would consider it crucial. But, what's most discouraging is when a forum discusses energy strategy for years, realizes that a comprehensive energy strategy will involve numerous schemes for renewable energy and biofuels, then finds a post in that forum that includes a statement to the effect of: "The answer is...". The oil industry has made us dependent on it, even when it's not the best source of energy for a given application. It has brought men to power who have influenced the highest levels of government to ensure that competitive alternatives are squashed. We've learned that a single energy source which fosters a dependence on it due to the exclusivity of the raw materials or technologies, provides a substitute for our current dependency on oil. At it's worst, we know that such a dependency brings to power those who will encourage a government to help them exploit or even militarily control other countries. Although I keep an open mind toward all energy technologies (including hydrogen), I encourage you not to place all importance on one. -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: You all know perfectly well the answer is Dilithium Crystals. No arguments, please. robert and benita rabello wrote: chem.dd wrote: The bottom line is that the world has to go Hydrogen. Are you SURE you want to go there in this forum? I'd be laughing if your proposition wasn't so sad. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Meanwhile in the free world...
I didn't know Marines needed sanctuary. Mark Manchester wrote: We run screaming from the room, hands aloft. Jesse On Jun 21, 2006, at 7:21 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Republicans in the House of Representatives forced everyone to spend an entire day discussing a non-binding resolution praising the troops and labeling Iraq part of the War on Terror. Later they will debate a resolution declaring kittens 'adorable' --Jon Stewart)President Bush is creating a Marine sanctuary in the Pacific Ocean off the northwest islands of Hawaii. You know what that means? No oil there. --Jay Leno ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] I tribute to Canadians
Even though it came from a cheesy commercial, I still like this one... (Joe, did you write this?) Hey, I’m not a lumberjack or a fur trader. I don’t live in an igloo, or eat blubber or own a dog sled. And I don’t know Jimmy, Sally or Suzie from Canada (although I’m certain they’re really, really nice.) I have a prime minister not a president. I speak English and French, not American, and I pronounce it “about” not “aboot.” I can proudly sew my country’s flag on my backpack. I believe in peacekeeping, not policing, diversity, not assimilation, and that the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal. A toque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch and it is pronounced “zed” not “zee” — “zed.” Canada’s the second largest land mass, the first nation of hockey and the best part of North America. My name is Joe and I am Canadian! [meekly] Thank you. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Freakonomics - in defence of
Agh!! Now ya did it. I got that stupid music from the Heineken Light commercial ringing in my head. Don't you wish your girlfriend was a freak like me... Mike Weaver wrote: Oh, you just like the Freak part pf Freakonmics! Michael Redler wrote: Doug wrote: I do agree with you that most present day economists are in an extreme state of denial regarding their relationship to moral issues. I would agree that there is a detachment but, I'm not sure that it's denial. I mean, denial is a defense mechanism, right? Have they become defensive or do they see a close attachment to moral issues as a leash which keeps their research within current moral boundaries. I want to be careful not to make blanket statements because some economists may depend on moral issues because it's within the scope of their research. Those who don't include those issues (IMO) have grown accustomed to certain methods and have created their own obstacles in reaching their objective. Personally, I'm equally interested in the public reaction to economists research. I think the degree by which people interpret research as a call to action is a measure of how our culture submits to fear and hatred. ...my $.02 Mike [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] castorbeans
I'm wondering if such an oil producing plant is a good candidate for the urban fuel farmer. More specifically, those who don't have a lot of land and would welcome a crop that climbs. ...just a thought. Mike Jason Katie wrote: i believe the fruits all ripen at once, or close to it, and it was just over a week ago that i planted them(10 or 12 days) and YAY! i am thrilled ;) Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (most likely to get me) - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] castorbeans Good to hear of successes. Some questions and observations if you can help. Do the Castor seeds on the plant all ripen at one time? Have not had mine in long enough to know and using cuttings to speed up quantities for transplanting.Jatropha seeds do not all ripen at one time so picking/harvesting is or can be very labor intensive. How long did it take for your Castor beans to sprout all up? My Castor beans sprouted and grew. I then cut some of the branches and stuck them in compost and dirt mixed pots. Seems that most of the clippings are starting to sprout. Am not sure why but was told that this could not be done. Seems once the beans have sprouted, the clippings seem to grow quicker. 5 days to see the clippings developing new growth. Six days for the Jatropha to sprout from seeds and 17 days to see action or small signs of growth from Jatropha clippings. All good to see up and growing. Need to put more Castor clippings in pots ready for planting out. Doug [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] castorbeans
Hi Juan, I saw the word "beans" and thought of a climbing plant, like a string bean. ...bad assumption. I'm definitely NOT a farmer. Anyway, I'll check Keith's links. Thanks. -Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike Redler. That crop is like a big bush, in this subtropical country it grows like a weed (no insecticides needed) but it needs a fertile dirt, water and a half-squared meter for its deep roots. I does not climbs, more likely it can be used for the urban farmer as a shadow for parking lots if they are planted in groups. It was discussed the production of biodiesel from castor and Keith sent to the list the following message that has many links. Best Regards. Juan Boveda Paraguay -original- From: Keith Addison [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 3/30/ 2006 5:38 For: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Seeking experience to produce biodiesel from Castor Anyone care to share any experiences with castor oil based biodiesel brewing using small-scale plants? I am told that castor oil dissolves in alcohols and external heating is eliminated from the process. I'm also hearing conjectures that castor based biodiesel will not freeze even below -20 deg C. Any pointers to more specific info along these lines? I'll get to my own brewing/learning experiments soon (and I'll start with proven processes and materials described on J2FE), but we could do with as much existing wisdom as we can get our hands on, especially because what we want to get into out here is not only for our personal consumption. Many thanks in advance for any help. Chandan Hi Chandan I can't share any experience of using castor oil but I can offer some information which might help. It's been discussed a few times before, I think other list members may have direct experience of it. List archives: http://snipurl.com/oeit Search results for 'castor' The one disadvantage mentioned, that I haven't seen an answer to, was that crushing the seeds creates a seriously bad odour, enough to put people off. Also the cake is poinsonous, but James Duke says: "Although it is highly toxic due to the ricin, a method of detoxicating the meal has now been found, so that it can safely be fed to livestock.MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.hort.purdue.edu" claiming to be " http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Ricinus_communis.html Ricinus communis The toxic principle is water-soluble so is not found in the oil. It's also said to be a drying oil, the equal of tung oil, yet it has a much lower Iodine Value, though Iodine Value is quite a crude indicator of whether oils will polymerise or not and castor oil seems to be an exception. On the other hand it has a longstanding reputation of being an excellent motor oil. This is an informative website about castor oil, and biodiesel generally: http://www.castoroil.in/uses/fuel/castor_oil_fuel.html Castor Oil as Biofuel Biodiesel - Info, WWW Resources on Castoroil as Bio-fuel, Bio-diesel Others: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/castor.html Castorbeans http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Ricinus+communis Ricinus communis http://snipurl.com/oeiu The Hindu Business Line : Gujarat Oleo Chem bags Rs 25-cr biodiesel order from IOC Gujarat Oleo Chem bags Rs 25-cr biodiesel order from IOC Mumbai , Aug 3 http://www.tierramerica.net/2003/0526/ianalisis.shtml Energy in a Castor Bean The castor-oil plant, ricinus communis, is the best source for creating "biodiesel", say Brazilian experts. http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/278737-1.html First electricity from castor oil: Patrick Knight reports on how the biodiesel industry in Brazil is taking off. From Oils Fats International: Nov, 2004 issue Hope this helps. Best Keith [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
In the spirit of Godwin's law and considering the fact that Chip is the first (to my knowledge) to make this observation, maybe this phenomenon should be called Chip's Law. :-) -Redler Chip Mefford wrote: Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Back off Weaver! Some things really are impossible. I did some research and according to Wayne Manzanero, you're WAY off! It's impossible to tell the sun to leave the sky It's impossible to ask a baby not to cry Can the ocean keep from rushing to the shore? ...it's just impossible! -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver [impossible snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Distributed computing and climate prediction
Thanks David. This is a great idea! I did a quick search for other similar schemes (i.e. SETI, etc.) and found: http://distributedcomputing.info Apparently, this is getting popular with some applications. Is this is the end of supercomputers as we know it? On a similar note: I've always wanted to get a bunch of old computers and have them parallel process across an Ethernet hub to achieve a similar objective (except without the need for prioritizing like distributed computing requires). I never did enough research to actually follow through with a plan or determine if it's even worth the work. -Redler David Kramer wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/hottopics/climatechange/moreaboutexperiment1.shtml Distributed computing and climate prediction The BBC have teamed up with Oxford University to conduct the world's most ambitious climate modelling experiment. We want to do better than the world's supercomputers, using a technique known as distributed computing. How does distributed computing work? Modern home computers can perform billions of calculations a second. Most of the time, that's far more power than the average user needs - so even though you're working hard, most of your computer is lying idle. Distributed computing projects make use of this spare computer potential. All you need to do is install the correct software, and your computer should take care of the rest. The programme automatically manages your computer's processor, so that programmes you are running get priority. Your computer only works on the experiment when you're not using the processor for something else. Distributed computing is a particularly valuable tool for scientists who have large amounts of data to analyse, or who are modelling very complex systems like the Earth's climate. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Ah...I see. You wrote: "Once the intake is closed and the concentrated sun starts its work ** the system is a closed one ** so oxidizer/fuel density is unchanged." That makes a lot more sense. Mike Kirk McLoren wrote: Once the intake is closed and the concentrated sun starts its work the system is a closed oneso oxidizer/fuel density is unchanged. All you see is increased cylinder pressure and hotter coal dust and air. - less the motion of the piston during this time. I envision this engine as very slow moving, 100RPM or less. Maybe as slow as some of Ericsons machines. Kirk Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk, It's a very novel approach but, with all due respect, I thinkthe thermodynamics of this process needs a closer look. The origins of all mechanical energy can (eventually) be traced back to temperature changes. So, your intentions are in the right place.Thermal expansion as part of a cycle of combustionisa function of how low the mass of fuel and air is in comparison to the temperature during combustion. This not only causes a greater delta T by simple temperature comparison but, it also effects fuel density as explained by the ideal gas equation, PV=nRT. I haven't taken a thermo class in about fourteen years so,this observation could be refined. I'm going by memory here. Mike Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because it will absorb solar radiation. and since there is a suspension transfer to the air will be rapid. This all happens BEFORE ignition. Then oxidation does the final rise in temperature. Much higher delta T with same investment in O2 and hydrocarbon. And the hydrocarbon is nearignition point so unburned is not as much of a problem. If tapioca was black and finely divided that would be ok too. Assuming it was water free. Sugar has a lot of water too. - and it isnt the best solar absorber. I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk. Kirk Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why pray tell COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course) lol Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window. Kirk [snip] _ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Online sources for self study - Black Bodies
Hi Joe, Your research is a little outside of my range of expertise. So, I gave your message to my finance. She has a PhD in Chemistry and runs a chromatography lab. All she had to say was Wow! He's got access to some nice equipment.. I think she's jealous. I may be way off but, your description reminds me of black anodize. Anyway, it looks promising. Good luck. -Redler Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; I don't have any references I can recommend but I'll tell you what I did. I dry etched silicon using flourine ions in a reactive ion etcher. Making use of native polymer contamination of the surface and carefully controling the presence of oxygen radicals I was able to form a dense structure of columns roughly 100 nm wide and 400 nm tall that when viewed with an electron microscope look something like a forest. The nanoconvolution of the surface on a scale less than the wavelength of visible light results in an extremely antireflective black surface similar to a moth's eye. (BTW this is why moths see so well in the dark) The silicon material absorbs all the incoming radiation in the visible and longer wavelengths and even most of the ultaviolet I'd guess as low as 198 nm although I haven't tested it. Silicon is roughly similar to iron in its heat conducting properties so this film would be very good for a passive solar system. I think I could build a machine to sputter silicon on pipes and etch it in situ if I had the resources. Joe Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone, I know of some descent resources for electronic circuits, software development, and a bunch of other stuff. However, I've come up with nuthin' for black bodies which contains both a practical guide for passive solar collection and the analytical/mathematical tools for theoretical modeling. Once I have that, I'm good to go, already having one pretty good general text on heat transfer (J.P. Holman, seventh ed.). Joe, I know you mentioned some work you did with thin films (if my memory serves me right). Can anyone point to a good on-line source? I'd even be happy with a textbook recommendation. -Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Online sources for self study - Black Bodies
Hi everyone, I know of some descent resources for electronic circuits, software development, and a bunch of other stuff. However, I've come up with nuthin' for black bodies which contains both a practical guide for passive solar collection and the analytical/mathematical tools for theoretical modeling. Once I have that, I'm good to go, already having one pretty good general text on heat transfer (J.P. Holman, seventh ed.). Joe, I know you mentioned some work you did with thin films (if my memory serves me right). Can anyone point to a good on-line source? I'd even be happy with a textbook recommendation. -Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] And now a brief chuckle...
So...does that mean that 30% of the 49% of people who approve of gay marriage also approve of Bush? Assuming a Gaussian distribution for all samples and a neo-conservative model for logic and reason: 17.7% of Americans approve of gay marriage AND president Bush! Since Bush's approval rating is at 30%, one can only conclude that more than half of his supporters approve of gay marriage. ...those wacky republicans! :-) -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Do we need a constitutional amendment? Is that the most important issue facing the country today -- gay marriage? We were off last week, so apparently we must have caught bin Laden. --Jay Leno You know what's interesting about this whole thing? According to polls, 51 percent of Americans do not approve of gay marriage, but 70 percent of Americans do not approve of President Bush. So gay marriage is actually more popular than he is. --Jay Leno Do you notice gay marriage didn't become a big Republican priority until all their members started going to prison? --Jay Leno Donald Rumsfeld was in Vietnam this week. President Bush was supposed to go, but his dad got him out of it. --Jay Leno A person was caught trying to jump over the White House fence after throwing a package over it. Turns out it was just Hillary Clinton with carpet samples. --Jay Leno How annoying is this? Senator Hillary Clinton calling for a return of the 55 mile an hour speed limit. When people in L.A. heard about this, they said, 'What? Cars can go that fast?' --Jay Leno Here's something fascinating. Honda has announced it's developed technology that links a person's thoughts to a machine. It uses brain signals to control a robot's movements, to which Al Gore said, 'Been there, done that.' --Jay Leno Did you hear about this? Homeland Security is cutting funding to New York City ... and raising funding for Nebraska. Well, at least the corn will sleep better. --David Letterman This was a little frightening. Over the weekend, the Royal Mounted police up in Canada ... busted a group of Canadian terrorists -- a Canadian al Qaeda group. About 19 of them. Their motto was: 'Death to America, ey?' ... The Canadian terrorist group was led by Canadian mastermind, Gordy bin Laden. --David Letterman This kind of thing usually happens once or twice a summer down in Washington. Yesterday, a guy hopped the fence at the White House. Pretty scary. Thank god at the last minute Dick Cheney picked him off. ... And then, today, another guy was arrested for trying to climb Condoleezza Rice. --David Letterman Let's begin tonight right here in New York, New York. The city's so nice, it was attacked by international terrorists twice. So naturally, last week, the Department of Homeland Security... announced a cut in anti-terrorism grants to New York and Washington, D.C. by 40%. ... Now to some, cutting anti-terror money to the two cities that have already suffered major terrorist attacks might sound, I don't know, insane. ... So, if New York's funding is being slashed, where is all the money going? Apparently, it's being used to boost the defense budgets of terrorist hot spots like Charlotte, Louisville and Omaha, Nebraska. Apparently, Homeland Security distributes the terror funds on the basis of what item your city has the world's largest ball of. ... Now, I can understand the concern over Omaha. That city is of course under constant threat from renowned Midwestern terrorist Omaha bin Laden. –Jon Stewart Adding insult to injury, one of the reasons New York's funding was cut is that, according to Homeland Security's analysis of potential terror targets, the number of New York's national icons and monuments is zero. ... In the report, ... the Brooklyn Bridge -- the world's first steel wire suspension bridge -- was classified merely as a 'bridge.' The Empire State building is referred to simply as 'tall office building.' And as for the Statue of Liberty, the Department of Homeland Security has recently classified her as 'a giant, green water whore.' --Jon Stewart On the formula for allocating Homeland Security anti-terror grants: It's believed to be the total population of your city divided by square mileage times Baptists over synagogues divided by the square root of the number of Waffle Houses over swimming holes. All that times the ratio of guns to Spanish language radio stations times zero. Plus, whether or not where you live voted for Bush. ... To most Americans, New York isn't even in America. It's more like part of 'Gayjewistan.' ... If you want to truly preserve the iconic American community, you have to throw money at a certain small town -- a place where everyone knows their neighbor, where you can leave your doors unlocked without fear, where hard work and traditional values are all that stands between you and a better life. ... It doesn't exist, but it just got $500 million
Re: [Biofuel] way off topic
Hi Bob, I'm kinda new at it too. I just booked a trip for the last two weeks of July. I don't suppose you did a search at http://novascotia.com/en/home/default.aspx. It has a descent search engine and helped me decide where to go. Good luck! -Redler bob allen wrote: anybody from Nova Scotia? I am heading that way in a couple of weeks for a family vacation and would like some advice. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] an apology
Hi everyone, I've been thinking about a few posts I made a short time ago. Looking back, it is clear that frustrations in my personal life were vented toward the biofuels group. I made inappropriate remarks and baseless political positions in response to messages from Hakan and Keith. Whatever my reasons, the remarks I made had no place in the biofuels group and I sincerely apologize. Most of all, I apologize to Hakan and Keith for being the recipients of such messages. They were angry, antagonistic, and offered no contribution except to poison the culture within the group. I hope to make it up to you. Respectfully, Mike Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] way off topic
Mark, et al I don't know anything about the area and there are so many resorts, cabins, and general vacation spots, I ended up going by the list of activities. Any chance you heard of Inverary Resort? http://www.capebretonresorts.com/inverary.asp Mike mark manchester wrote: You were not specific, Bob, about what sort of advice you had in mind. Naturally, I have a daughter at university in Halifax (I have daughters everywhere). Were you wondering about higher education, perhaps? But I must add to the advice of these fine men that you'll find lovely food and scenery (they don't call it new scotland for nothin'). Highlands? Orchards? Lobsters? Breathtaking ocean vistas? Within the city limits of Halifax are TWO BIG FRESHWATER LAKES. Bring a picnic, wear a hat. Cheers, Jesse From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Unlisted Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:25:54 -0400 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] way off topic And watch you don't run into someone while driving. Pedestrians rule on the east coast. Cars will stop in front of you for no apparent reasonbecause a pedestrian shows a sign of wanting to cross. I like that! Enjoy your trip. The restaurant in the harbour where they moor the Bluenose II had great food when I was there but it was many moons ago If you have the ability to cook your own, go to the wharf and buy your lobsters directly from the fishermen (fisherpeople). Joe Mike Weaver wrote: Go through Lunenberg, and the state park (Kejimkijik or similar) in the middle is nice. Last trip I just hugged the coast - it's hard to go wrong. I liked Halifax - particularly the Historic Properties. Have a donair. There will fresh peas - they are wonderful. The lobsters are also great. It'll be a great trip. -Mike bob allen wrote: anybody from Nova Scotia? I am heading that way in a couple of weeks for a family vacation and would like some advice. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
I think the 5/30/06 post and attached article from AltEnergyNetwork did a excellent job explaining the administration's decision making process, the U.S. economy and how it compares to similar situations in other countries. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63309.html I also think it's possible that the weakening of the U.S. Dollar is the result of a concerted effort by foreign entities (governments and NGO's) and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of Hegemony or Survival. For the first time, concrete alliances have been taking shape at the grassroots level . These are impressive developments, rich in opportunity. And they have had effects, in rhetorical and sometimes policy changes. When he says policy changes, I read it to mean within the United States. However, I think that a popular movement to identify the U.S. government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species, is coalescing in foreign policy decisions around the world. The result is an indication of US economic isolation with hopes of slowing military buildup and globalization. (IMO) this adds to Mike Weaver's position: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63345.html Don't get me wrong - the concerted effort to destroy our economic system perpetuated by the Bush Administration will (and has) have an effect. White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. Military spending/use, energy, the environment, you name it, the U.S. government is enormously wasteful and destructive (not that I need to tell anyone in this forum) and people are taking notice. Like Keith wrote: Eco-economics has been on the table since Maggie Thatcher put it there by mistake in 1988. It's not going to go away, it's been gaining ground steadily. It's about holding back the most destructive empire in human history - destructive for what it does and doesn't do. Re: WMD's - how U.S. policy threatens our survival. In addition to U.S. engagement in continuous military conflicts since WWII, the Bush administration has vetoed or avoided discussion on nearly every international effort to limit nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, has militarized space in violation of past nuclear weapons treatise and has prompted other countries to react and build more arms. U.S. spending on nuclear weapons has surpassed the entire state department budget. The U.S. Pharmaceutical industry is helping develop vaccine resistant Anthrax (for example) and an arms race for biological weapons is already underway. Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I would not take issue on pollution per facility, but pollution per nation. US is very much larger polluter per capita than both China and India together. US is also larger polluter in absolute terms,so it is not surprising that US did not sign Kyoto. Even Bush said that it would be too expensive to meet the Kyoto targets, which means that US is way above them, otherwise it would not be that costly. Looking at GDP levels, if anyone could afford a clean up, it is US. I also think that the US glass house is damaged beyond repair, with all the stone throwing that it suffered. As usual, it is more about image, than practical realities. Hakan At 13:56 31/05/2006, you wrote: I didn't say that. Nor would I. I said the US has a dynamic economy. Our infrastructure is beginning to fall apart; the highway system is crumbling; the electrical grid is shaky; we have no energy policy...the list goes on. But it it better than the systems in most of the world, except Western Europe. There is a functioning legal system, something I think you'd be hard-pressed to claim about China and to some degree India. Our corruption is better managed and on a grander scale - Halliburton. But you don't have to pay a bribe to get driver's license or cross a bridge or open a business. Would you rather own stock in Exxon or Cnooc? Well, figuratively, I wouldn't own oil stocks personally, but one has reasonably open books, and putatively complies with Sarbanes-Oxley, and one can be manipulated at the will of the government. Despite the best efforts of the current administration, our pollution levels are nothing like that of China or India, and the days of major ecological disasters like the Three Gorges Dam are passed. Transparency has suffered mightily under Bush, but Transparency International still rates the US well above China and India. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, At 04:16 31/05/2006, you wrote: snip Also, say what you want about the US but it is still by far the most dynamic economy in the world. China and India still have significant infrastructure, corruption, pollution and transparency issues to overcome. snip And US have none of those problems? LOL ___ Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Native American Code of Ethics
Here is something else "those savages" came up with: Constitution of the Iroquois Nation http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/IroCons.html "The representative democracy of the Iroquois was extensively studied and praised by Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, who proposed it as the basis for the United States Constitution. In a backhanded compliment at the Albany Congress in 1754, Franklin said he found it hard to believe that the 13 colonies could not agree to a political union when "Six Nations of ignorant savages" had formed one." From: Constitution Convention Commission Archives http://www.cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=CommissionsCommission=CCC Mike D. Mindock wrote: Bright Stars! This came from the Kucinich4President yahoo group and I was moved to pass it on. I am embarrassed that I am not a better example of the integrity of thought and action that it embodies. Good still to read and be inspired and motivated by the thoughts. peace light, jeannie :: Native American Code of Ethics 1. Rise with the sun to pray. Pray alone. Pray often. The Great Spirit will listen, if you only speak. 2. Be tolerant of those who are lost on their path. Ignorance, conceit, anger, jealousy and greed stem from a lost soul. Pray that they will find guidance. 3. Search for yourself, by yourself. Do not allow others to make your path for you. It is your road, and yours alone. Others may walk it with you, but no one can walk it for you. 4. Treat the guests in your home with much consideration. Serve them the best food, give them the best bed and treat them with respect and honor. 5. Do not take what is not yours whether from a person, a community, the wilderness or from a culture. It was not earned nor given. It is not yours. 6. Respect all things that are placed upon this earth - whether it be people or plant. 7. Honor other people's thoughts, wishes and words. Never interrupt another or mock or rudely mimic them. Allow each person the right to personal _expression_. 8. Never speak of others in a bad way. The negative energy that you put out into the universe will multiply when it returns to you. 9. All persons make mistakes. And all mistakes can be forgiven. 10. Bad thoughts cause illness of the mind, body and spirit. Practice optimism. 11. Nature is not FOR us, it is a PART of us. They are part of your worldly family. 12. Children are the seeds of our future. Plant love in their hearts and water them with wisdom and life's lessons. When they are grown, give them space to grow. 13. Avoid hurting the hearts of others. The poison of your pain will return to you. 14. Be truthful at all times. Honesty is the test of one's will within this universe. 15. Keep yourself balanced. Your Mental self, Spiritual self, Emotional self, and Physical self - all need to be strong, pure and healthy. Work out the body to strengthen the mind. Grow rich in spirit to cure emotional ails. 16. Make conscious decisions as to who you will be and how you will react. Be responsible for your own actions. 17. Respect the privacy and personal space of others. Do not touch the personal property of others - especially sacred and religious objects. This is forbidden. 18. Be true to yourself first. You cannot nurture and help others if you cannot nurture and help yourself first. 19. Respect others religious beliefs. Do not force your belief on others. 20. Share your good fortune with others. Participate in charity. Shared by Ray Lookingglass To learn more about the Algonkian family of tribes and their languages, please visit: http://www.native-languages.org/famalg.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US
Whoa...fun with Latin. Mike Jason Katie wrote: yes, to put it fairly bluntly, hes got the gourd in the gutter. - Original Message - From: Johnathan Corgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US Mike Redler wrote: This person clearly has a case of Encephalomalacia with extreme back strain and trauma to the lower GI tract (further explanation upon request). This must be closely related to recto-cranial inversion syndrome. -Johnathan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.
Jim, Let's review: You said: "A Corporation is only a form of a business along with Limited Liability partnerships, a dozen or so hybrid forms and Sole proprietors ships any one is only as good as those that lead it. What is your solution? where do you stop? Ban all forms of trade?" I don't think it's unusual for anyone to think that you're writing in the context of "all forms of trade" and about a corporation as "only a form of business" followed by a list of other forms of business (including the baker, I'd imagine). But, let's not focus too much on that because it gets better. As your rambling on about corruption, you're completely missing the point. It's legal to pay an employee minimum wage (below the poverty line), lobby for anti-union legislation and take away pension benefits when a company goes into dire straits due to mismanagement. So, by definition, it doesn't require corporate corruption to exploit workers - just a clear understanding of the law. Earlier in this thread, I wrote: "The only thing that can fight the devastating effects of corporate greed is public consensus and a movement built from that consensus." and "We have become such a patriarchal society that we just hope that the "character" of our leader is to our liking - and that's nauseating." Then, you wrote: "...it would require an increadibly fair wise and just King or some other form of goernment that could regulate without corruption LOL" A King (as in a "patriarchal society")? It makes me curious to know what's happening in YOUR mind. Mike JJJN wrote: Mike, Mike Redler wrote: Jim, Your statement puts all forms of business into one category (i.e. IBM with the village baker) and redirects the discussion toward all forms of trade. This is a direction that I won't be led into. No it does not, that happens in your mind, but it does put COKE energy and Enron in the same boat along with many of these BIG forms of Government. Corruption and greed are not unique to Corporations only thats what I am saying. (that includes the Baker) The point I made directly addresses the wealth and power accumulated as human labor becomes a commodity and corporate executives become the beneficiary of that commodity. The less labor costs, the more profit is made. More importantly, when money and power reach the highest levels of government and do so as a representative of businesses who profit from cheap labor, what's left to protect working families? But this is a function of free enterprize and to eliminate it would require an increadibly fair wise and just King or some other form of goernment that could regulate without corruption LOL As I said before, corporate executives who are paid hundreds of times more than the salary of their employees, are living proof of the imbalance which big business imposes on a government (supposedly) created to protect all of it's citizens. Thats right. I am not blind I know who really runs US and the UK and all the other countrys that exist on this globe. So whats the answer? Is there one? Jim Mike JJJN wrote: Mike, A Corporation is only a form of a business along with Limited Liability partnerships, a dozen or so hybrid forms and Sole proprietors ships any one is only as good as those that lead it. What is your solution? where do you stop? Ban all forms of trade? I don't like the greed and abuse either, but I am practical enough to understand that not every Corporation is run by an evil twin to Enron. I also understand what you are saying that there need to be much stiffer reforms in place to legislate ethics to those that are running many of them. But some how I just don't have the faith that people will wake up, and if they do I think it will be to late. Jim Michael Redler wrote: Jim wrote: "I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all." *Divided World: Rich Live Longer, Poor Die Younger* http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/062900-01.htm Those who want wealth, will have it. Since there is no individual who's work represents hundreds of times the value of his/her employees, you arrive at two simple conclusions - that corporations are a means of building wealth off the backs of others and that those who own those corporations are obsessed with building empires and monuments to themselves, off the backs of others. The size of a corporation is a measure of the ambition to build that empire and monument. The only thing that can fight the devastating effects of corporate greed is public consensus and a movement built from that consensus. The sooner that greed effects public policy and makes enough people suffer, the sooner the public will wake up to what's going on aroun
[Biofuel] The Many Facets of the White House's Propaganda Machine
I wonder if Rupert Murdoch has shares in this company. -Mike U.S. video game angers Chavez allies By Reuters Game simulates military invasion of an oil-rich South American nation, according to company scheduled to release it. http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6077243.html?tag=sas.email ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.
True. But, I'm not sure I see your point Jim. Mike JJJN wrote: I am not sure of this but in the beginning didn't the Constitution require that the Government was to be funded by buisness and trade? And did not the victory tax come to be our first income tax? Jim Mike Weaver wrote: We've been through similar periods before...railroads, steel, Standard oil, Airlines... Michael Redler wrote: Jim wrote: I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all. *Divided World: Rich Live Longer, Poor Die Younger* http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/062900-01.htm Those who want wealth, will have it. Since there is no individual who's work represents hundreds of times the value of his/her employees, you arrive at two simple conclusions - that corporations are a means of building wealth off the backs of others and that those who own those corporations are obsessed with building empires and monuments to themselves, off the backs of others. The size of a corporation is a measure of the ambition to build that empire and monument. The only thing that can fight the devastating effects of corporate greed is public consensus and a movement built from that consensus. The sooner that greed effects public policy and makes enough people suffer, the sooner the public will wake up to what's going on around them and react to it. Mike */JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all, I just dont like the powers in Govrnment to be persuaded and corrupted by those profits. Yes this one needs some work, Thanks Jim D. Mindock wrote: Hi Jim, I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to withhold their taxes for some reason? I'd modify number 5: 5) Government through representation of the people by the people. to this: 5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people, for only the people. (No wiggle room on this one) And I'd add another article that strongly limits what is really the root of all our problems, the immoral/unethical, inhumane influence of multinational corporations which now control most of the world's governments and indirectly, their people. This is the elephant in the room, imo. Corporations are not people or a person and deserve no special treatment. The welfare of the people should be paramount to all considerations. In this vein, the environment is part and parcel of the welfare of the people. You can't ignore it or trash it without it coming back to ruin your day, and your life. Corporations, as a rule, don't give a hoot about the environment. We are all stuck on a small planet that is getter more polluted every day. The oceans are loaded with PCBs and mercury. This cannot continue without devastating consequences for all living things. So, an article that explicitly encourages/enforces a healthy environment should, imo, be added. I think it is that important. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Doug Younker To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.
Jim, Your statement puts all forms of business into one category (i.e. IBM with the village baker) and redirects the discussion toward all forms of trade. This is a direction that I won't be led into. The point I made directly addresses the wealth and power accumulated as human labor becomes a commodity and corporate executives become the beneficiary of that commodity. The less labor costs, the more profit is made. More importantly, when money and power reach the highest levels of government and do so as a representative of businesses who profit from cheap labor, what's left to protect working families? As I said before, corporate executives who are paid hundreds of times more than the salary of their employees, are living proof of the imbalance which big business imposes on a government (supposedly) created to protect all of it's citizens. Mike JJJN wrote: Mike, A Corporation is only a form of a business along with Limited Liability partnerships, a dozen or so hybrid forms and Sole proprietors ships any one is only as good as those that lead it. What is your solution? where do you stop? Ban all forms of trade? I don't like the greed and abuse either, but I am practical enough to understand that not every Corporation is run by an evil twin to Enron. I also understand what you are saying that there need to be much stiffer reforms in place to legislate ethics to those that are running many of them. But some how I just don't have the faith that people will wake up, and if they do I think it will be to late. Jim Michael Redler wrote: Jim wrote: I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all. *Divided World: Rich Live Longer, Poor Die Younger* http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/062900-01.htm Those who want wealth, will have it. Since there is no individual who's work represents hundreds of times the value of his/her employees, you arrive at two simple conclusions - that corporations are a means of building wealth off the backs of others and that those who own those corporations are obsessed with building empires and monuments to themselves, off the backs of others. The size of a corporation is a measure of the ambition to build that empire and monument. The only thing that can fight the devastating effects of corporate greed is public consensus and a movement built from that consensus. The sooner that greed effects public policy and makes enough people suffer, the sooner the public will wake up to what's going on around them and react to it. Mike */JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all, I just dont like the powers in Govrnment to be persuaded and corrupted by those profits. Yes this one needs some work, Thanks Jim D. Mindock wrote: Hi Jim, I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to withhold their taxes for some reason? I'd modify number 5: 5) Government through representation of the people by the people. to this: 5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people, for only the people. (No wiggle room on this one) And I'd add another article that strongly limits what is really the root of all our problems, the immoral/unethical, inhumane influence of multinational corporations which now control most of the world's governments and indirectly, their people. This is the elephant in the room, imo. Corporations are not people or a person and deserve no special treatment. The welfare of the people should be paramount to all considerations. In this vein, the environment is part and parcel of the welfare of the people. You can't ignore it or trash it without it coming back to ruin your day, and your life. Corporations, as a rule, don't give a hoot about the environment. We are all stuck on a small planet that is getter more polluted every day. The oceans are loaded with PCBs and mercury. This cannot continue without devastating consequences for all living things. So, an article that explicitly encourages/enforces a healthy environment should, imo, be added. I think it is that important. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Doug Younker To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and
Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.
It only depends on the character of people in power when the majority of citizens don't participate in decisions effecting their (our) future. We have become such a patriarchal society that we just hope that the character of our leader is to our liking - and that's nauseating. Doug said: ...how do we empower those with decent character?? How do WE BECOME EMPOWERED to remove them when they don't act in our best interest (and without waiting for an election year)? Character alludes to someone with good intentions and a willingness to do the right thing. That doesn't mean they actually know how. When that happens, our society needs to respond and tell government how they could better SERVE US. Mike JJJN wrote: Well I don't know if private or public is the way to go but I think you said it all, when you stated in the end it all depends on, the character of those in power. I completely agree with that statement. No matter how Divine the Design, Cancer can ruin it. Perhaps this is the root cause of our societal ills? (globally). Well I dont have any of the answers I'm the one with all the questions but I think you have nailed the most important one of all. Now how do we empower those with decent character?? Doug Younker wrote: Jim, Interesting that you bring up tribal, whenever a coffee shop commentator states communism is not natural and can never work, I point out that many tribal societies have persevered, until they where discovered by a more powerful force, that is. That force may have been another tribal society, so tribal societies aren't perfect either. Also interesting that you bring up grazing. Here in Kansas a rancher needs to purchase or cash rent pasture, so they are put in a competitive disadvantage with those ranchers who are able to rent public land below market value. Despite that I think you will find few would support raising the rent collected for use of public land to real world values. Because it's the government collecting the rent, they don't stop to consider, they are supposed to be part of the government. Democracy/Republic, Dictatorship, Monarchy; Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, in the end it all depends on, the character of those in power. With that in mind, I'd rather we stay with private ownership. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA JJJN wrote: Actually I don't know how that form of goevrnment would work as I'm not sure that it has ever existed past or present unless perhaps we look at the tribal governments that did not understand the concept of individual ownership. I do think that it could be acheived and individuals could possibly like it better than any system that they have a comfort zone with. I'm squeemish with the idea a bit as well but I also see Developers raiding privately held land in our society, courts supporting it, Public land being sold off to pay for schools, cattlemen getting public grazing alotments they only pay a pittance for in relation to private holdings. So I don't think our system is as good a one as I used to. I think if the people were in charge they would envelope a system that would be fair and equitable to the poor as well as the priveleged - possibly? If that system were one of private ownership or of public Im not sure but I do know ours is askew of what it should be. Luck, Jim Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA JJJN wrote: I disagree, The land is any nations wealth, when everything else is gone it is the land that will still give. We kid ourselves if we think wealth lies in gold. If you spread the land out to allow ley farming you create an abundance that is not dependant on an unrenewable resource such as modern agriculture. Abundances create trade and trade allows for luxuries. Remember why do you suppose that people came from almost every country on earth in the early days to get free land in this country - to have the opportunity to prosper. What do you think would have happened if there Oil and coal was never discovered? Would we be a nation still a horseback? Not we would have developed technology just the same but it would be along much more sustainable lines. I think Oil and Coal has Derailed our natural progression in an artificial manner. And unless some fool discovers perpetual energy and gives modern man that (then we can give up hope) we will soon learn where we left off. But as some say lets not rest until we have released every carbon atom into air. My best, Jim Doug Younker wrote: [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio
Did somebody say Weathermen? The sixties and seventies were a fascinating time in our history whether you agreed with a particular ideology or not. If I had some cash to spend, I'd go to Pacifica radio and build an audio collection of interviews and speeches. Bobby Seale Huey Newton Abbie Hoffman Martin Luther King Jr. Malcolm X Mumia Leonard Peltier George Jackson etc., etc. Some of those who struggled then are still speaking out today - albeit from a prison cell. Mike Zeke Yewdall wrote: Hey! I wasn't born till '78, but I know what Kent state was, the weathermen, the moon shot, vietnam war, and alot of the stuff you are talking about. I didn't experience them, but isn't that why they teach history in school? Or do they? I never attended public school, so I may have inadvertently learned something I wasn't supposed to. Zeke [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Energy Problem Solved! Here Comes the Turboencabulator!
The machine that makes all other machines obsolete! http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/%7Eids/dotdot/misc/jokes/turboencabulator.txt Turboencabulator JH Quick [From The Institute of Electrical Engineers, Students Quarterly Journal 25] For a number of years now, work has has been proceeding in order to bring prefection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would work to not only supply inverse reactive current, for use in unilateral phase detectors, but would also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Turboencabulator'. Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of the power being generated by the relaxive motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interactions of magneto- reluctance and capacitive directance. The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surrounded by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings were in direct line with the pentametric fan, the latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar vaneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented. The main winding was of the normal lotus- o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid solts in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible termic pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeter. Forty-one manestically placed grouting brushes were arrranged to feed into the rotor slip stream a mixture of high S-value phenyhydrobenzamine and 5 percent reminative tetraiodohexamine. Both these liquids have specific pericosities given by p=2.4 Cn where n is the diathecial evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is the Chomondeley's annual grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcetental hopper dadoscope. Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative wennel-sprocket. Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, in 1943, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered. The early attempts to construct a sufficiently robust spiral decommutator failed largely because of lack of appreciation of the large quasi-pietic stresses in the gremlin studs; the latter were specially designed to hold the roffit bars to the spamshaft. When, however, it was discovered that wending could be prevented by the simple addition of teeth to socket, almost perfect running was secured. The operating point is maintained as near as possible to the HF rem peak by constantly fromaging the bituminous spandrels. This is a distinct advance on the standard nivelsheave in that no drammock oil is required after the phase detractors have remissed. Undoubtedly, the turboencabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Energy Problem Solved! Here Comes the Turboencabulator!
Jason and Katie, What if I told you that this is part of urban legend among design engineers in the US and that it has been around for over a decade. Legend has it that GE engineers were frustrated by product managers signing off on products they had no business reviewing - mainly because they had no technical background whatsoever. According to the story, the Turboencabulator was submitted to the GE product management team and signed off as a product! I have a (fairly rare) hard copy of the full specification (not shown below), complete with a picture of the device and GE logo on the cover. It was circulated about fifteen years ago. Mike P.S. Not funny eh? Why don't you go stick your inverse reactive current where the unilateral phase detectors don't shine! :-) Jason Katie wrote: im sorry, but even as a joke it doesnt seem plausible. isnt that the goal of a good joke, to seem plausible until the punchline? this is just gibberish and has no punchline therefore is a dumb joke. - Original Message - From: Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 4:02 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Energy Problem Solved! Here Comes the Turboencabulator! The machine that makes all other machines obsolete! http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/%7Eids/dotdot/misc/jokes/turboencabulator.txt Turboencabulator JH Quick [From The Institute of Electrical Engineers, Students Quarterly Journal 25] For a number of years now, work has has been proceeding in order to bring prefection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would work to not only supply inverse reactive current, for use in unilateral phase detectors, but would also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Turboencabulator'. Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of the power being generated by the relaxive motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interactions of magneto- reluctance and capacitive directance. The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surrounded by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings were in direct line with the pentametric fan, the latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar vaneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented. The main winding was of the normal lotus- o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid solts in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible termic pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeter. Forty-one manestically placed grouting brushes were arrranged to feed into the rotor slip stream a mixture of high S-value phenyhydrobenzamine and 5 percent reminative tetraiodohexamine. Both these liquids have specific pericosities given by p=2.4 Cn where n is the diathecial evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is the Chomondeley's annual grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcetental hopper dadoscope. Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative wennel-sprocket. Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, in 1943, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered. The early attempts to construct a sufficiently robust spiral decommutator failed largely because of lack of appreciation of the large quasi-pietic stresses in the gremlin studs; the latter were specially designed to hold the roffit bars to the spamshaft. When, however, it was discovered that wending could be prevented by the simple addition of teeth to socket, almost perfect running was secured. The operating point is maintained as near as possible to the HF rem peak by constantly fromaging the bituminous spandrels. This is a distinct advance on the standard nivelsheave in that no drammock oil is required after the phase detractors have remissed. Undoubtedly, the turboencabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Energy Problem Solved! Here Comes the Turboencabulator!
Hey, guess what? My memory isn't too bad after all. Turboencabulator From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The term Turboencabulator refers to a non-existent machine whose alleged existence became part of an in-joke or Professional humor amongst Electrical Engineers. The turboencabulator was described by "J.H.Quick" The Institute of Electrical Engineers, Students Quarterly Journal 25 (London), p184 in 1955 [1]. Most of the terms in the description were made up, but technical sounding, to fool the unknowing. The device was said to measure "Inverse Reactive Current". General Electric became the victim of a practical joke when several engineers slipped a data sheet for a Turboencabulator into GE's 1962/1963 product catalog [2]. According to folklore, GE only learned of the prank after receiving inquiries about the advertised product. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboencabulator ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Energy Problem Solved! Here Comes the Turboencabulator!
You couldn't build anything from this document anyway. The original was made of crapalloy of which there is no mention! Mike Joe Street wrote: That's so old! I built one of those years ago in my basement. The problem is that the framistrap let go from the firmathrottle which overramped the nucleomodulator resulting in a total meltdown. I never got my money back! Be warned. J Mike Redler wrote: The machine that makes all other machines obsolete! http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/%7Eids/dotdot/misc/jokes/turboencabulator.txt Turboencabulator JH Quick [From The Institute of Electrical Engineers, Students Quarterly Journal 25] For a number of years now, work has has been proceeding in order to bring prefection to the crudely conceived idea of a machine that would work to not only supply inverse reactive current, for use in unilateral phase detectors, but would also be capable of automatically synchronising cardinal grammeters. Such a machine is the 'Turboencabulator'. Basically, the only new principle involved is that instead of the power being generated by the relaxive motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interactions of magneto- reluctance and capacitive directance. The original machine had a base-plate of prefabulated amulite, surrounded by a malleable logarithmic casing in such a way that the two spurving bearings were in direct line with the pentametric fan, the latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar vaneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented. The main winding was of the normal lotus- o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid solts in the stator, every seventh conductor being connected by a non-reversible termic pipe to the differential girdlespring on the 'up' end of the grammeter. Forty-one manestically placed grouting brushes were arrranged to feed into the rotor slip stream a mixture of high S-value phenyhydrobenzamine and 5 percent reminative tetraiodohexamine. Both these liquids have specific pericosities given by p=2.4 Cn where n is the diathecial evolute of retrograde temperature phase disposition and C is the Chomondeley's annual grillage coefficient. Initially, n was measured with the aid of a metapolar pilfrometer, but up to the present date nothing has been found to equal the transcetental hopper dadoscope. Electrical engineers will appreciate the difficulty of nubbing together a regurgitative purwell and a superaminative wennel-sprocket. Indeed, this proved to be a stumbling block to further development until, in 1943, it was found that the use of anhydrous nagling pins enabled a kyptonastic boiling shim to be tankered. The early attempts to construct a sufficiently robust spiral decommutator failed largely because of lack of appreciation of the large quasi-pietic stresses in the gremlin studs; the latter were specially designed to hold the roffit bars to the spamshaft. When, however, it was discovered that wending could be prevented by the simple addition of teeth to socket, almost perfect running was secured. The operating point is maintained as near as possible to the HF rem peak by constantly fromaging the bituminous spandrels. This is a distinct advance on the standard nivelsheave in that no drammock oil is required after the phase detractors have remissed. Undoubtedly, the turboencabulator has now reached a very high level of technical development. It has been successfully used for operating nofer trunnions. In addition, whenever a barescent skor motion is required, it may be employed in conjunction with a drawn reciprocating dingle arm to reduce sinusoidal depleneration. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US
If there were an innocent (albeit ignorant) question in there, I would be a lot more forgiving. ...but there isn't. This person clearly has a case of Encephalomalacia with extreme back strain and trauma to the lower GI tract (further explanation upon request). There is a difference between someone quietly asking if there is a fire in a movie theater and standing up and declaring it. I would treat this the same way and collectively offer him/her a heaping bowl of verbal whoop-ass the next time he/she pipes up. (IMO) Anyone starting out may absorb information from this individual as readily as from a legitimate source and cause confusion. If it is done in the this forum, it could effect hundreds of newer members. Mike Joe Street wrote: Why don't you send him in search of Hydrogen the most wonderful fuel of all? J Sorry I guess I'm in a rude mood this morning. Keith Addison wrote: SNIP Check the word that's being spread that I'm supposed to help with, it's stuff like this: Biodiesel used in its pure form (B100) may require certain engine modifications to prevent gelling which would cause performance problems and maintenance issues. Some conversions warm the oil preventing the oil gelling at colder temperatures. A two fuel tank system is used in many of these conversions. The smaller tank holds petroleum diesel which is used at engine start up. After the engine warms up, the (B100) fuel is then warmed. At this point the driver switches to the larger primary tank holding the (B100). Before the engine is shut down the driver switches back over to the smaller petroleum diesel tank purging the (B100) fuel that may gel in the fuel lines when the engine cools. ROFL!!! How would I go about helping him? Start here? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are your free plans being sold on eBay?
Dude, it wasn't me! I'm talking to a guy in Nigeria who's trying to secure the inheritance of an exiled prince. He said that if I put his name on my bank account, they will have a safe place to put the money until everything settles down - and I get to keep the interest!! :-) - Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Redler, I think you owe me a refund. I'm sending your pdf's back. Keith Addison wrote: Just to add, I wouldn't want anybody to generate any pdf files from the material at JtF, whether for sale or for non-sale or for anything. JtF is not public property, and there's not much about it that's haphazard and unplanned. It's not Biofuel list property either. It's not because we haven't considered it that pdf's and print versions are not for sale and not available. Different media of delivery have different effects, and the differences are important even if not very many people notice it. You use the right ones for the job. We'd perhaps use pdf's for a different job, but then it wouldn't just be website material dumped into Acrobat as-is, it would mean a complete makeover, of a large amount of material. Then again, obviously we'd make them available for download at the JtF website, that's where people who want the information go anyway. I wouldn't consider changing our strategy on this (nor anything) for the sake of a few mosquitoes biting people at ebay, not even if they were biting us too (but they're not biting us). JtF isn't broken, please don't fix it. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules
Yes!! That's a great observation Zeke! Quite literally, it would be a self-cleaning solar collector. Filtration at the pump is something that would be an appropriate piece of hardware anyway. We should all keep this on the back burner until one or some of us have the resources to conspire on a prototype.. In my opinion it would be the pinnacle of this forum to develop technology together which would be freely accessible to anyone in the public domain. Is there a Patent attorney in the house? I want to know if this thread is legally binding, making members of this forum co-inventors under the current first-to-invent system in the US. Mike Zeke Yewdall wrote: This sounds better. For one, you don't have a pressurized flat plate, which would be hard to engineer compared to a tube -- imagine the pressure on a 3 x 5 foot piece of glass with pressurized fluid behind it. Not that a large flat box with pressurized fluid in it would have to be at very high pressure if it was a drainback type system. But I like the cascading fluid better. You could do it as cascading without a front cover at all, but then you'd collect loads of dust (and other debris, animals, etc), so that would over time block more light than the extra piece of glass. With the high heat transfer of a liquid though, a system with fluid touching only the back of the PV cells might be sufficient though. But then you are back to requiring a filled fluid resevoir instead of a trickle, since the back of the PV module would be downward facing. Hmm. On 5/16/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who says that the PV cells have to be immersed in the oil? If the modules were in the glass box and standing (more or less) upright, the oil coolant could simply be cascaded over the modules. Even if the oil had relatively high photoabsorption compared to water (for example), there would only be a thin film to penetrate. Any thoughts? Mike Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, Many of the high voltage transformers in electricity distribution are filled with oil for insulation and cooling purposes. In this case I belive it is mineral oils, but it is many years (40) since I worked with this and do not completely trust my memory. They were, and 40 years ago, they were filled with that marvelous compound that did everything exactly right. Polychlorinatedbiphenol. Great stuff all in all, just had one drawback SNIP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
Someone asked: "i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as Stalinist? would that be a fitting label?" If I understood the question correctly, it was (tongue-in-cheek) about using the label "Stalinist" on Democrats. Of course, I could be mistaken. In any event, I have no idea how Cuba entered the conversation. You wrote: "...this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further." I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm guessing you are referring to Russia using Cuba to extend it's expansionist agenda. If true, I'm not sure where it fits into the conversation. Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further. Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it. Hakan At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote: Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with impunity. We're not their yet. Mike Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as stalinist? would that be a fitting label? - Original Message - From: "Zeke Yewdall" To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -- morons would be the best description I can think of for them. On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote: Ray, Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate. However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the "mainstream" media. Camejo's campaign gives the right answers http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml The Democrats aren't a solution http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml Mike Ray in Atlanta GA wrote: Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon. Ray in Atlanta GA D. Mindock wrote: This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all the info on citizens possible to be stored in a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of your airline flights. When they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can believe it will be much longer than that. Just like your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive, devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye Dick appear to be out-of-control. Work for Peace, D. Mindock The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, airlines, and civil libertarians. *Three-Day Quarantine* Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in quarantine for as long as three days. *Detailed Information* The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed contact information from their passengers, including the names of any traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the government asked for it. USA Today April 25, 2006 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules
I would REALLY like to see the results of such a test. Good luck!! Mike logan vilas wrote: I am working with the idea of building my own Concentrator with about 50 times the mirror space then collector space. That Is why the question was asked in the first place I was wondering if placeing a 50watt solar panel at the focal point would increase the power output. I've read that it is more then 100% liner increase in power output when increasing the amount of light on it. a normal panel at 50 watts would be 2500 watts at 50 suns. I know it would need to be kept cool. due to the fact that they are only 20-30% efficent, but I could use the coolant to heat my biodiesel processor, then the hot water going into my home before a tankless heater. If I were to get a grid tied inverter It would suppliment my normal power useage and maby with netmetering it might come close to canceling out my power requirements alltogther. a simple temp sensor could be used so if the temp is over 150f in the coolant it will shut down and not collect the sun anymore. As for a solar tracker that is relative easy with very simple electronics. The setup to hold everything would be a simple build for most people who can make their own biodiesel processor. And If I base it off a 7 meter dish I can get those free. I just have to use the labor to remove it. Logan Vilas - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules I am speaking mostly from experience, from what I have seen work and fail in the field, and what I can buy to install for my clients. The reason I talk about trackers on large poles is because that is what is commercially sold right now (at least in the US, europe is ahead of us in many areas). And the biggest reason I see for failed systems is lack of maintenance (mostly batteries, but also anything that moves). Also, the number of new innovative PV systems that I have seen come on the market over the years, only to dissapear within another year... We're still basically doing the same thing as PV was in the 70's, with incremental improvements in efficiency and incremental cost decreases. I called the concrentrating PV exotic merely because I can't call up one of 200 some suppliers and buy one that meets all current electrical code, whereas I can with silicon PV modules. Maybe another breakthrough is coming, but in the mean time, alot of people will keep using coal generated power because they are waiting for those breakthroughs. I would rather see working PV systems going in today, even if they aren't all that high tech, rather than people thinking they have to wait before solar energy can work for them -- and in the mean time continuing to support coal and oil. It's not that I want to limit the new technology, but what I have seen is that the layperson holds out the possibility of a paradigm shift in the technology in the future as a reason to do absolutely nothing now. And if I recall, the original question was about concentrating sunlight on a normal old PV module -- which isn't the best idea -- they tried that at the carrizo solar plant in the early 80's, and a few years later, a whole lot of used Mud-lams (because the encapsulant turned varying shades of brown) flooded the market for off-grid use. I do admit that this list's members are not your average layperson, and most of us won't just use the news of new inventions as an excuse for procrastinating, so I apologize for that. Zeke On 5/12/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By now, you may have noticed my resistance to conventional wisdom whenever someone gives negative feedback about a particular energy scheme. Here is an example. The idea of concentrating light onto PV cells is a relatively new idea in some circles. What to do about waste heat is a natural progression in the discussion of such technology. But, why is it seen as such an obstacle - especially when schemes for harvesting waste heat are so abundant in energy related discussions? You wrote: ...regular PV is cheap enough that the simplicity of not having moving parts will probably outweigh any advantage of trying to get more from the same amount of silicon. The sweeping statements are getting old Zeke. Adding trackers become advantageous when you run out of roof. By the way PV that works on concentrated sunlight isn't so exotic and will probably become the PV of choice in a large percentage of applications. The large cost of concentrating PV is likely to be offset by an increase in power conversion requiring the use of heliostats, tracking technology and those pesky moving parts. Mike Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Most of the highest efficiency PV cells do use concentrators. These are the 35% efficient super exotic
Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
Oh crap!! You're right. ...my bad. Mike Jason Katie wrote: hurm... isnt that what the US gov't is doing already? - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with impunity. We're not their yet. Mike Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as stalinist? would that be a fitting label? - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -- morons would be the best description I can think of for them. On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote: Ray, Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate. However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the mainstream media. Camejo's campaign gives the right answers http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml The Democrats aren't a solution http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml Mike Ray in Atlanta GA wrote: Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon. Ray in Atlanta GA D. Mindock wrote: This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all the info on citizens possible to be stored in a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of your airline flights. When they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can believe it will be much longer than that. Just like your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive, devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye Dick appear to be out-of-control. Work for Peace, D. Mindock The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, airlines, and civil libertarians. *Three-Day Quarantine* Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in quarantine for as long as three days. *Detailed Information* The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed contact information from their passengers, including the names of any traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the government asked for it. USA Today April 25, 2006 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran
Hakan, You wrote: Lenin had western support, from industrial interests, this is documented. Documented? Where? Perhaps it's filed under L just before the Leuchter report. Lenin and Trotsky were influential in the creation of the first labor movement in the US (IWW) by virtue of one of it's most influential leaders, Eugene Debs - a Socialist. The first labor leaders followed Trotsky ideology. Why would industrialists support an organization which brought power to the masses. More importantly, why on Earth would leaders of that movement embrace those who want to take it away? You have no direct response to anything I've posted so far. You suggest that a corporacracy (as if one can differentiate between that and capitalism) will replace communism when a communist state has yet to emerge, giving you nothing to replace. I stated that Communism was a response to elitism and the imbalance of a class society. I even challenged you to show me where Marx proposes elitism in the Manifesto (a document which led to Lenin's vision of revolution in Russia). I mention US military support of the Czar's White Army and still, you feel that US industrialists oppose both their government and their own ideology by supporting the Bolsheviks. Despite all that, you just keep going without missing a beat. Mike R Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, Lenin had western support, from industrial interests, this is documented. I even read about Lenins return to Russia, which was arranged by western friends. Trotsky supported by competing western interest, yes. Stalin, I do not know enough and have not seen any records of that, he also had minimal western exposure, compared with the others. It is however records of that the industrialist expected that Russia would offer more opportunities after the revolution, which never materialized. They flirted heavily with Stalin. The major corporate players was the French, Germans and to much lesser extent US. As with Vietnam, the Americans tried to jump in when the French failed, they never learn. It was probably the backlash from the disappointment of the Russian revolution, that made the Germans to support and bring AH to power. AH was for a long time seen as the defender against communism and had support from the industrialists and royalists during the 1930's, when the west was afraid of communist revolutions. AH's invasion of Austria was both supported and welcomed by Austria and the west. It was not until the invasion of Poland that France and UK acted, with the mutual defense treaty with Poland as the reason. France by a lackluster attack on Germany, which led to WWII. AH was an Austrian as you know, not German, he was also a corporal in the royal army during WWI. I am convinced that there are many more revelations in the pipe line in the coming decades. The real history take at least 100 years to write, they say. By the way, it was similar naive expectations on that the Americans would be welcomed by the people on the streets, as in Iraq and Afghanistan. They never learn. Hakan At 16:51 08/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You said: What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which elite group that take the power. I respectfully disagree. Re: Replacing Communism 1.) You can't replace what hasn't existed. If you mean Stalinism, then say it. 2.) Show me where Marx proposes elitism in the manifesto. Communism was A RESPONSE TO elitism and the imbalance of a class society. Re: Replacing Capitalism - Corporatism and capitalism must coexist. One represents the logical progression of the other and (IMO) can only be quantified since it's existence is a forgone conclusion. I don't even feel comfortable making a direct comparison between capitalism and any model of government since elements of it exists everywhere. Both capitalism and libertarianism exist in democracies as well as anarchist states (for example). They are elements of a larger scheme. If Lenin and the Bolsheviks were supported by corporations, it certainly wasn't welcome (unless of course they were willing to redistribute their wealth). Early in the revolution, Trotsky and the Mensheviks may have welcomed that kind of support (although I doubt it) until he joined Lenin and fought together on the same side. You need to back up your statement with some more information. To my knowledge, there were many events that led to the Russian revolution, like the February 1917 bread riot during a woman's day celebration. The counterinsurgency was fought by the Czar's White Army with troop support from the US. I know of no serious contribution to the Bolsheviks by US corporations. If anything, corporations may have assisted in putting down the revolution by supporting Stalin. Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, Since I think I
