Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energy in electrical production by 2025
Darryl, Just wanted to commend you on your excellent and well organized proposals. Act locally about energy is your overarching theme, and I absolutely agree. Grand schemes always seem to lead to grand corruption. Local closed resource loops usually make the most sense, whether for food, goods, or energy. The world will be a nicer place when we realize that the 'benefits of scale' are often really the 'benefits of passing hidden costs to others'. Only the most complex technologies, e.g. clean-room semiconductor manufacturing, really benefit from scaling up. Of course, in this group, i'm preaching to the choir ;) Taryn On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Darryl McMahon wrote: Dear Jim (and others), IMHO, looking to create an industry may be the wrong perspective for making biofuels actually work for your community (county). Rather than starting with a grand plan, which will inevitably get undercut and underfunded when it comes to implementation, why not start with a lot of low-cost, small initiatives. These should focus on the local 'waste' materials, determining how they can be utilized, and matching them up to uses. This can lead to the development of small businesses, and as an economic development director, I'm sure you know that small businesses create more jobs per dollar of investment than do large businesses. Small businesses are less likely to relocate away, and they create the underpinnings for communities that work. ... [and many creative proposals] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] $50 universal digital tool, was $150 ebook machine
I'm sure the Jinke readers have a great (or at least large) display, but they're too big, too single purpose, and too proprietary. I've been using Palm devices to read etexts for years. Right now my Palm contains a few of Mark Twain's books, a Terry Pratchett novel, both volumes of Democracy in America, The US Army Survival Guide, The Prince, and some other fiction and reference trivia. It also contains all my phone #'s and addresses, a scientific calculator with conversion factors built in, writing, sketching, and handwriting tools, a handful of simple games, and an MP3 player with a GB of music on a flash card. It runs for about 6 hours on a two hour charge off a USB port, fits in a pocket, and switches on, off, and between applications in a fraction of a second. Usable Palm devices can be had for as little as $50 with monochrome displays, and $100 with color. Music playback and voice recording costs more and (may) require a big flash card. Sorry to give such a sales pitch, but I've always carried books with me everywhere, now I can stick 50 books in my purse. P.S. You'll notice that most eTexts in my palm are out-of-copyright. That's because I have little patience for the encryption and copy protection so rampant in commercial eText publishing. I am perfectly willing to pay authors and publishers for their work, and respect their copyrights. But I refuse to be held hostage by some crummy little decryption tool that will, sooner or later, fail, stealing whatever books it controlled from me. P.P.S. Cory Doctorow, who publishes eBooks regularly without encryption and still makes a living as a writer has written extensively on this issue, read more here: http://craphound.com/ebooksneitherenorbooks.txt Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 29, 2005, at 12:18 AM, robert luis rabello wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.jinke.com.cn/english/v8/default.asp 290 grams with Li ion battery (just over 10 oz) 800x600 main display Plays mp3 as well USB 1.1 I/O Notice that it reads from a proprietory format, just like my Franklin e-bookman. (Which cost me less than $50.) It would be wonderful to find a reader that can handle .pdfs! The company that offers such a device for sale will likely sink its competition and do great things for my book sales. robert luis rabello ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Soylent Green, was Postmortem Residence
On Sep 26, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Tom Irwin wrote:
Hi Zeke and all,
Wow, it's been years since I saw that movie. That was Edward G.
Robinson's last flick. Lot's of things are applicable to today's peak
oil problem. Since it had a great storyline I have to think it was a
book at some time but I have no real idea. Actually I believe any
input feedstock with such a high water content would yield much less
energy out than put in unless there's a lot of complex and expensive
enzyme systems at work. Wastewater would be much worse even
enzymatically since it is like 99.99% water. Human solid waste is like
50% water before the flush. The settled solids at the treatment plant
would make up maybe 99.9% water. I think the Phiily folks ought to
talk to some chemical engineers.
Tom Irwin
From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:42:58 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: {OHG} RE: Postmortem Residence
Soilent green anyone?
I suspect that the problem is the energy input require to
depolymerize the input feedstock. Is this more or less than the
energy we get out of it.
snip
Soylent green (by another name) was originally a book by Harry
Harrison, who wrote from the 50s onward, mostly Sci Fi humor and
Satire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_Room%21_Make_Room%21
Harrison is probably most famous for Bill the Galactic Hero, which
nicely pilloried Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
Taryn
http://ornae.com/
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[Biofuel] Oh man, here comes Rita
A few weeks ago, before the systematic failure of rescue and recovery efforts became evident, I was puzzling over human foolishness in the face of the incredible forces of nature. http://ornae.com/35/katrina-slams-new-orleans-is-there-blame Shortly thereafter, the Katrina story became one of racism, cronyism, corruption, classism, and incredible bungling at every level of government. The media became part of the problems, even as they were exposing other problems. Innuendo, unsubstantiated rumors, and outright lies were reported and repeated, without witnesses, without facts, without confirmation. Invariably these lies and rumors depicted the poor and desperate of Louisiana and Mississippi as violent degenerates. For days, the media accepted the party line of the administration, until even the most jaded reporters were choking with outrage over the constant bungling, denial and spin, needless deaths and misery, and blatant racism and classism. Another horrifying aspect of this was the classism evident in so much of America’s surly response to the misery of Katrina’s victims. It’s become wildly obvious that most americans only have sympathy for the impoverished of other countries. The poor lived in New Orleans because there was at least some work there, even if it was mostly feeding and entertaining the tourists who came for that genuine gumbo. Louisiana and Mississippi have a level of systemic poverty which has nothing to do with welfare mothers or lazy bums. There’s little work, lousy wages, lousy schools, corrupt government and law enforcement, bad health care, toxic waste, and rampant racism to blame. How easy it has been for our bigots to forget that the poor lived in the lowest parts of New Orleans because the wealthy lived in the highest parts. The least among us, those without cars to drive to safety, or cash to buy food and fuel, or credit cards to buy bus rides out of town, those turned back by armed men as they sought refuge on the high ground of white suburbs, are seen as scum by the middle classes of this country. How shameful that every black carrying a burden was a ‘looter’, while whites were ‘scavengers’, in media representations. Having seen the bile spewing from my countrymen about self-sufficiency and individual responsibility, I want to make it clear that I am not in that camp of bigots. My question, “Is there blame?”, pointed to the “enabling behavior” of governments that issue building permits in swamps, that strip the funding allocated for levee and pump maintenance, that recommend evacuations without considering those unable to escape unless transported, that steal the funds allocated for emergency measures, that strip FEMA, then pack it with incompetent cronies. I thought of insurance companies that use the premiums of those who live in sturdy little homes far from the storm surge to pay the claims of the McMansion owners whose multimillion dollar beach homes should never have been built. I thought about the corruption and cronyism that sent millions of dollars of FEMA money to heavily republican Dade county after Frances came through florida, passing three counties to the north, more than 100 miles. The communities hit hardest by several hurricanes that year, democratic St Lucie and Indian River counties, where billions of dollars in damage was done, each received less FEMA assistance than Dade county, which didn’t even experience tropical storm forces. http://www.yuricareport.com/Disaster/ FEMAunderBushTrailOfCorruption.html I spoke then of the wisdom of building on barrier islands, hardly knowing that an object lesson was waiting in the wings. We can only hope that the folks crawling north on the roads from Galveston will not be trapped in their cars as Rita floods the land around them or flings their gas starved SUVs off the roads. Will Rita teach the lesson that we didn’t learn from Katrina, to plan our settlements a little better? Will the citizens say “no more” to subsidizing wealthy fools who build on shifting sands? Most of all, will these disasters finally show us how hollow the promises of “Homeland Security” are? Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuel-electric hybrids - was Debatable Statement
On Sep 17, 2005, at 10:05 PM, Darryl McMahon wrote: TarynToo wrote: ( http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg55383.html ) snip The only way to get a diesel electric hybrid in this country is to build it yourself. I swear, before, I'm dead, I'm going to build a solar-svo-diesel- electric-regenerative hybrid out of some old school bus or airport shuttle! snip I sympathize. Couple of thoughts and questions. With currrent commercial grade PV panels, I recommend you not install them on the vehicle, but install them somewhere where they can be aimed optimally, and not shaded. Car surfaces (hood, roof, trunk) will almost never be optimally aimed unless you live near the equator. Also, cars spend a lot of time parked in the shade - garages, beside buildings, in urban canyons. This is certainly true, but where we live, (south florida) and expect to spend the next few years, (mostly south of 40 degrees N.) there's usually plenty of sun. I'm very fond of vent skin designs, which in sunlit structures provide a great deal of thermal protection by using convection and radiant barriers to significantly reduce heat transfer to the interior. A vehicle design which allowed vertical airflow in the skin, up to and through a center mounted ridgevent, when parked, and horizontal airflow in the skin while underway, would be much cooler than if it was simply insulated. What better material for the outside skin that solar panels? While current photovoltaic panels are still too heavy and expensive to simply 'skin' a whole bus with, we constantly read about 'the next big thing' in solar-electric. Another possibility with such a design is to hinge the solar side panels so that they might be better aimed while shading the sunlit side of the bus. This might all be so heavy and unwieldy as to make it a negative energy proposition. I'm still not convinced regarding regenerative braking. The gain is typically small - 7-8% with drivers not trained for efficient driving. Efficient drivers get less benefit from regenerative braking, as they spend less time in braking mode. Drive smarter, get the benefit for free. Further, the small range increase from regen can be equalled by adding a battery or two to an electric vehicle. A bit more weight, but a lot less cost. I'll grant this for light vehicles on level terrain. But there some situations where regenerative braking seems like a real advantage: Short haul, high mass delivery, especially in city traffic. Driving 20 tons of beer from red light to red light seems like the ideal hybrid-electric-regenerative application. When driving in dense traffic it's almost impossible to drive efficiently, you'd never move. Mountain driving and hill driving, where the energy factors are multiplied by gravity. The hybrid you are contemplating. Will it be a plug-in hybrid? I think that idea has merit. To the point I am building one. It will be a fully functional electric car with limited range - 20 to 30 km pure electric to start with. Once it is street legal in electric mode, I expect to add a biofuel generator set. Agreed, though we expect to be off the grid a lot. One thing about coupling an internal combustion engine only through the generator-battery-motor-wheels path is the much greater loss through conversions. The elegance of the prius/civic designs is the close coupling of the IC engine to the wheels, which means that the generator-motor can be weaker and lighter, since it only needs to provide a fraction (albeit large at times) of the power needs. There has been some progress on this vehicle. I have finished the work on it I planned to do. It is now with my mechanic having the brakes redone from front to back. They were in need of complete rebuild after sitting for over 10 years - most of that not at my hands - believe it or not. So, with luck, that should be licensed and on the road before the end of the month. I have been thinking biodiesel as my biofuel, but a couple of things are making me rethink that now. First, this will be a year-round use car - including Ottawa winters - with -30C temperatures to contend with. That makes me worry about biodiesel gel and pour points as possible issues. Second, a local business is now selling E85, an option I did not have even two weeks ago. Third, four-stroke, air- cooled, small gasoline engines are easier to come by, and cheaper, than diesel engines with similar ratings. It certainly is easier and cheaper to lay hands on small gas engines that small diesel engines, at least in north america. If you go into a VW dealership in South Florida asking for diesel cars, you'll get little more than a blank look. So, should I go with E85 instead of biodiesel (presumably B10 to B20 in winter) for the hybrid? Does anyone have experience using E85 in a small engine
Re: [Biofuel] pussy makes car Purrrrrr
Hi Alex, On Sep 16, 2005, at 5:36 AM, alex burton wrote: I May well be wrong and i hope so ... I am not anti german in anyway. I am more asking the question if the lepard tanks that had such deverstating power were run on a fuel that may have been human fat. This hole concept sickens me but i have to ask if humans can be so evil? to kill cats_humans to power there greed to control. Alex. I hope i am wrong It's a horrifying thought. I think we can be fairly sure that it couldn't have happened, at least not on a production scale. Usually the death camp victims didn't go into the gas chambers and ovens until they'd been worked and starved almost to death. Anyone in that state would have already consumed all their available fats and proteins just trying to survive. So in an incredibly morbid thought, their enslavers cheated themselves out of a precious resource, by torturing and working the camp victims long enough to starve. Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?
Hi Zeke, On Sep 15, 2005, at 5:59 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: ... Even the new hybrids get lousy gas mileage, because the hybrid design is optimized for adding power, not increasing mileage like the insight and prius were. ... Oh man, this just burns my a*s. I was so excited a few years ago when we started hearing the rumblings about hybrids from american automakers and lexus, et al. Then to discover that the electrics were being coupled to gas engines to add acceleration, not to improve overall performance and efficiency. It's disgusting to think that they're strapping a half ton of batteries and electrics to some mondo SUV, betting that the american buyer just wants another second shaved off the 1/4 mile times. Sometimes I just hate the priorities of my countrymen. And they're all gasoline powered! The only way to get a diesel electric hybrid in this country is to build it yourself. I swear, before, I'm dead, I'm going to build a solar-svo-diesel-electric-regenerative hybrid out of some old school bus or airport shuttle! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush: What didn't go right?
On Sep 14, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Joe Street wrote: Hi Taryn; Thanks for the kind words. The non bush part is Mr. George Galloway a scottish member of parliament who gave a blistering redress to the US senate sub comittee earlier this year who accused him of complicity in the oil for food scandal with Iraq. JAFO is me! It is my composer alias and it stands for Just Another F---ing Observer. Best regards Joe Oh! I should have recognized Galloway, I watched his address to the sub-committee half a dozen times, while showing it to others. Go George! He really reamed those hypocrites. Go JAFO! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Linux, virii and Microsoft
Hi all, Notwithstanding this list's rule that says 'nothing is off topic', it seems to me that there are already a huge number of websites and mail threads involved in the NT/XP/BSD/Linux/Macintosh religious wars. Would bringing such a thread to the BD group increase content levels, or just increase noise levels? On the other hand, since I am without sin, (no M'soft on my networks ;-) I'll cast the first stone While I admire the incredible breadth and strength of Linux development, I prefer variants of freeBSD for most applications. FreeBSD seems marginally more stable and secure than Linux running web and data server apps, many of which were first created on and for BSD systems. For desktops and personal workstations, the freeBSD/Mach/Darwin variant of unix, delivered as Apple OSX, while not fully open sourced, is so much superior to every other GUI/user interface, that it just seems counterproductive not to buy Macs, especially for running unix on laptops. They're cheap, fast, friendly, and sturdy. They're delivered with an unbeatable set of consumer applications built in, plus X11, with thousands of applications ready to compile, all the linux/unix developer's tools like a cross-compiling gcc, perl, cvs, php, and java, and a competent and extensible developer's GUI. They just work. Ok, take up your weapons, YAPORS* begins! * Yet Another Pc Operating System Religious Skirmish. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 12, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Rumen Slavov wrote: Hi all,Hi Felipe,Hi Mike ... Doug,you are right,we should start a Linux BD list and there is at least one reason-to tell all our friends here for the advantages of the free OS`s.But I think it is better this way,giving more members the possibility to touch the idea of freedom in the net.It is close enough to the minds of the biodieselers-to keep the world as clean as possible and to be free to lead the life as everyone prefers. Best wishes to all of you,I am going back to the BD installation I am assembling right now. Rumen Slavov ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Hi Keith, On Sep 13, 2005, at 4:00 AM, Keith Addison wrote: On Sep 12, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Leon Hulett wrote: I did a tiny proposal to Cal Edison in California back in the 80s on Wind Energy Systems in the Jet Stream to see if they were interested. I had visited their Solar One Site and thought they might like to do something with wind. What would you like to know? Well...uh...everything, really. But the prevailing wisdom was that Victorian scientists were the last individuals able to encompass all of human knowledge. Kind of eurocentric racism, I 'spose. And our Victorian grandfathers (and grandmothers) were the last individuals able to encompass a complete set of skills. I had a set of grandparents like that, the people that Heinlein said could deliver babies, do laundry, dig wells, etc. As far as high altitude wind power extraction, we'd probably all like to hear as much as you're willing to tell. Can the proposal or elements of it be made public? I suspect JTF would be happy to host anything on the subject that stands up to scrutiny. Actually no Taryn. In fact there isn't anything about wind at Journey to Forever. (Nor micro-hydro, nor nor nor...) If there were it would be village-level stuff, Appropriate Technology gear that small communities could make and operate on their own. Oops, of course you're right, and I agree; acting locally, with thoughtful impact, beats giant commercial projects hands down. Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush: What didn't go right?
Hi Joe, that was nicely done, thanks. I've played it for my family and will share more. So who did the non-bush part? And who is JAFO? Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 13, 2005, at 1:37 PM, Joe Street wrote: As long as we are Bush Bashing...here is a link to a song I composed for protest purposes. Feel free to save a copy if you like it and pass it around! ;-) (Right click the link and select save target if you want to keep a copy) http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Dubya%20Lies.mp3 I hope you enjoy it Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Thanks Leon, this was helpful and interesting. A few thoughts and questions: A kite at 30K feet would have at least 40K feet of tether, about 12 km of cable. I know there now exist carbon fiber cored, aluminum wrapped, power lines that are both stronger and lighter than copper or the common aluminum and steel lines. If we optimistically assume that the tether package, including control circuits, power lines, and tensile reinforcing cables weighs ~0.5 kg per meter, then the tether would weigh ~6000 kg. And of course we haven't even calculated the weight of the huge blades and 80 MW generator. For comparison, the commercial Chinook heavy lift helicopter has about a 10,000 kg payload. On a smaller scale, anyone who's spent time on a coast knows that there's plenty of wind energy for kiting and para-sailing. I've a few kites that I'd never let a child fly, for fear they'd be carried away. When you feel the kite straining at the tether, it's obvious that there's a lot more power even at a mere 100 meters up. Keith made the point yesterday that JTF was focused on village level technology. It occurs to me that flying a small winged dynamo, off a tower mounted tether, might be worth the extra complexity for the higher return of energy. Even as I write these words I realize that this is a half baked idea. One of the virtues of windmills and wind generators is their great reliability in the face of changing conditions. While they may falter when the wind swings about or goes slack, they'll recover, without intervention, as soon as there's power to drive them. The winged dynamo, in order to be self starting and recovering, would need to do a lot of sensing, computation, and winching. And no matter how smart the software was, there'd be the occasional flukey wind to cause a crash. Adding helium or hot air also adds complexity and additional failure modes, though I was struck by the possibilities of using cogenerated hydrogen to keep a dynamo, tethered to the ground by conductors flying. (Oh the humanity!) Anyhoo, just thinking aloud, has this scheme been tried at the small scale? Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 13, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Leon Hulett wrote: TarynToo, Sorry, I can't help you with any vision of the Victorian or Scholastic scope of knowledge... But I might add a few things on the wind and my idea. I got a package of wind data on the upper air from an Oceanographic office. This was a compilation of data for 10 years from all around the world. Quite a bit of stuff. They have sites around the world that measure wind speeds of the upper air at different altitudes. Then they look at different altitudes and connect the dots. Then they have a chart of what the wind speeds look like over California, for example. At 30,000 feet they say, for the 10 year period of the data that the average wind energy was 7.5 kW per square meter. They can also present this data month by month. So one can make up 12 graphs that say what the power levels might be for Jan thru Dec. In July, or in the summer months the data shows the wind to be much slower than in Jan and the winter months. Looking at that data in another way I integrated the power from ground to 60,000 feet and estimated the total wind power coming across California as about 1 megawatt per foot of coastline. Lots of energy potential. Other parts of the country are more influenced by the Jet Stream and have average energy densities about twice as high, or 14 kW per square meter. Over Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, New York and the New England states, would be the highest in the country, at 30,000 feet. My idea was for an 80 megawatt design. Solar One was about 30 megawatts thermal capacity. If you divide 80 mW by the energy density and an efficiency you can see the frontal area would be quite large. The idea was to have just enough lift from a helium filled portion to provide safety under emergency conditions. The unit would never crash into the ground unless it came apart. But the helium would not sustain it at 30,000 feet either. TetraTech was a company in Pasadena, CA and does provide tethers for submersible equipment. They had envisioned a tether system and equipment that I felt would meet the needs. Of course at altitude, wings on the device would have to provide the lift needed for the tether. The tether would provide the ability to create lift like a kite. Close to ground near touchdown conditions, one would not have to support much tether. The plan was to change altitude if wind conditions became too high. Under summer conditions or low wind conditions I felt some fancy flying would increase the effective wind speed of the device. Like a water skier on a tether behind a boat. He can go faster than the boat under certain conditions. The tether could be used to tack the device in a certain pattern and fly faster than the wind
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
On Sep 12, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Leon Hulett wrote: I did a tiny proposal to Cal Edison in California back in the 80s on Wind Energy Systems in the Jet Stream to see if they were interested. I had visited their Solar One Site and thought they might like to do something with wind. What would you like to know? Well...uh...everything, really. But the prevailing wisdom was that Victorian scientists were the last individuals able to encompass all of human knowledge. Kind of eurocentric racism, I 'spose. As far as high altitude wind power extraction, we'd probably all like to hear as much as you're willing to tell. Can the proposal or elements of it be made public? I suspect JTF would be happy to host anything on the subject that stands up to scrutiny. Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power (was C-SPAN
Hi JJJN, On Sep 10, 2005, at 9:47 PM, JJJN wrote: ... Ok one last question about wind farms. I told someone that wind farms have the _potential_ of changing the weather if there is enough energy extracted. I was laughed at and got that look _Now I did say potentia_l. The laws of thermodynamics say so. So can any one share some more insight to this potential possibility?? This has been on my mind too, but I've not collected enough information to make an informed guess. The same question applies to tidal power and current power There have been proposals to anchor huge slow speed propellors in the gulf stream, to generate electric power. This seems (to me) to have the potential to extract enough energy to slow the stream. Even a fractional change in the energy delivered to the north atlantic might have extreme consequences for the ecosystem as well as weather. So anyone have informed guesses, or hard data, on the possible effects of pulling significant power out of tides, big water currents, jet streams, and ground level winds? Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
On Sep 11, 2005, at 3:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect that large arrays of wind farms would have an effect similar to forests. We've chopped down a lot of forests over tha last few hundred years, so this doesn't worry me. Tidal power would slow the earth's rotation a little faster than it is slowing anyway from friction - probably not a big deal. Removing a significant fraction of energy from say the Gulf Stream strikes me as asking for trouble. Regarding jet streams, I would be worried if it were possible. They wiggle around so much that I can't imagine any practical method of tapping their energy. I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Really? Genuine scam? I read about it in Wired or Pop Sci, figured it was just a master's thesis, or some defense proposal. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: *Yeah, I invested in that. Ponzi scheme. TarynToo wrote: ... I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] wind and current power
Oh...doh...fooled me. I was looking forward to hearing all the good dirt... Mostly I blow my money maintaining my museum of ancient Mac, BSD, Solaris, Linux Boxen. Foolishly, I gave away my CBM PETs and C64s, but I still have my KIM1! Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 9:21 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: No, I was being silly! I prefer to blow my money building things like BD reactors or heat transfer devices for wood stoves! TarynToo wrote: Really? Genuine scam? I read about it in Wired or Pop Sci, figured it was just a master's thesis, or some defense proposal. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 11, 2005, at 5:57 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: *Yeah, I invested in that. Ponzi scheme. TarynToo wrote: ... I remember some blue sky stuff that proposed wind turbines hanging from high altitude balloons, anchored by long tethers. I suppose the tethers were supposed to carry current to the ground, though I'm now struck by the weight of a few miles of high tension copper or aluminum line. As far as staying in the jet stream, It seems like it would be trivial to design a self-steering system like that used for singlehand sailing. If the tether's anchor points were far enough apart, the system could probably swing a few miles north and south and around a hundred degrees or more of the compass, tracking the strongest winds. I think the jet stream shifts hundreds of miles, so I don't know what that would be worth. Anyway it was this kind of big scale extraction that seemed like it could have devastating consequences. Of course you'd need millions of acres of ground level turbines to extract the kind of energy that a wind farm hanging in the jet stream might capture. But I remember reading about this and the proposals to hang big blades in the gulf stream and thinking, Oh Jeez! Another massive engineering project with wildly unpredictable side effects! Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina and Income Inequality
Hi Chris, I'm surprised to see you take these positions, you've often disparaged corporate and government abuse of power, and spoken up for the underdogs. On Sep 6, 2005, at 1:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps that accounts for the difference between the way the government responded. . . not quite . . .at 9/11 - where mostly White and rich people were the victims of foreign anger. . . more than this. they were victims of crazed, uncivilized, america-hating (and therefore american-ideology-of-freedom-liberty-law-and-order-personal- responsibility-and-bootstrap-individualism-hating), evil-doing *people*of*color*. They hate our way of life? Could this be sarcasm? It seems evident that much of the world hates us for our long-standing fascist meddling in their politics, economy, and religion, and NOT for our vaunted democracy or wealth. and in New Orleans where the victims were largely Black and unable to escape a natural disaster unassisted. and who have shown themselves, in this instance and so many other previous instances of inner-city rioting and looting, to be crazed, uncivilized, america-hating (and therefore american-ideology-of-freedom-liberty-law-and-order-personal- responsibility-and-bootstrap-individualism-hating), evil-doing *people*of*color*. Again, I have to wonder, is this sarcasm? There were many reasons for people to stand firm in their homes as the water rose. Some of those reasons are seen as classic american virtues; protecting your property and land, personal responsibility, loyalty to family, freedom from government intervention. Others were simply pragmatic; no money, no transport, poor communications, mistrust of government, especially police. This last reason is a powerful motivator in Louisiana, whose government has been extraordinarily corrupt: http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/maginnis/index.ssf?/base/news-A1000/ 112365494168030.xml http://flyservers.com/members5/policecrime.com/misconduct/ Louisiana_police.html http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2005-03-01/news_feat.html It appears that Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin, while possibly incompetent, are far less corrupt than their predecessors or Bush's cabinet; http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/maginnis/index.ssf?/base/news-A1000/ 112365494168030.xml and of course it's hard to imagine any agency or department as being more incompetent than Bush's administration and the gutted corpse of FEMA they created. in other words, there is a level on which, for many americans, the new orleans victims **represent** the enemy which caused 9/11. But your point wasn't that they stayed behind, it was that those who stayed behind were all crazed, uncivilized, america-hating ... evil-doing *people*of*color*, just like the tiny band of fanatics (none from Iraq) responsible for 9-11. Given that the New Orleans population is 70% black, and the black population is disproportionately poorer than the white, making them much less able to evacuate the city, we could easily assume that 90% of those remaining in the city are black, and the poorest of the poor, the most disenfranchised citizens of that city. I'd like to know how many meals, how many days without water any of us might go before we broke into a flooded market. Would I steal food and water for my family? Of course, as would we all. Would I steal electronics in a city without power? Certainly not, but every population, every race has its share of the thieving, the vicious, and the stupid. Shall we brand all whites as thieves just because Ken Lay stole hundreds of millions of dollars from Enron stockholders and pension funds? http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Ken_Lay.php Shall we brand all Texans as hypocritical panderers, because of one bad apple in the white house? For many americans, the perpetrators of our 60 years of imperialist foreign policy **represent** the enemy which caused 9/11. Taryn http://ornae.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina and Income Inequality
Hi all, Ok, I think I've finally caught up here. Chris, in your first post of this thread you were quoting those americans (excluding yourself?) who believe that the blacks of New Orleans are enemies of the state, morally equivalent to the 9-11 bombers? Then in your next post you said that believing this requires Orwellian triple-thinking, basically lying to oneself? And your comments about Mardi Gras in the third post were again quoting the same sort of triple-thinking hypocrites as the first? I agree, this is first class hypocrisy, especially from people who think that invading sovereign states and wounding or killing many thousands of people, is morally justifiable, but a few days of drunken debauchery by consenting adults, isn't. I must say your position was quite obscure from the posts. Duncan, you wondered about triple-think, an extension of a process commonly known as doublethink, first discussed in George Orwell's 1984. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink Doublethink means, according to George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four: the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth. (pages 35, 176-177) Of course our current administration finds doublethink too limiting, thus triplethink. Paul Krugman has been writing about the ugly side effects of extreme income inequality for years, here's some of it: http://faculty.pnc.edu/arw/gbg344/For%20Richer.htm http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/therich.html On Sep 8, 2005, at 9:17 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: mardi gras--a days-long orgy of drunken debauchery and sexual disinhibition As long as they are grownups, don't hurt anyone and don't break the law, what business is it of ours? Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone. Didn't our president have a few years of drunken debauchery? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chris, hi, taryn. I'm surprised to see you take these positions you've often disparaged corporate and government abuse of power indeed i have. and spoken up for the underdogs. as i did with my earlier post to this thread. duncan is not an american but he summed up the meaning quite well (though based on his further comments i'm not sure whether he understood my voice either--see my post immediately preceding this one). Duncan wrote: It seems that you agree that Katrina and what happened during and after are caused by inequalities, but inequalities that are deeper than income. Inequalities that divide a nation to such an extent that one group can call itself American and the other not. of course, i was simplifying things a teeny bit in the interest of brevity and succinctness. for some, for example, the simple fact of mardi gras--a days-long orgy of drunken debauchery and sexual disinhibition--would be reason enough to let the city sink into the gulf. of course, many who think that way already think in the way i described earlier in this thread. anyway, sorry for any misunderstanding. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How close to this are we?
Hi Andy, I don't think we're close, we're there already. Not much doubt that neocons and fanatics have wrested the government from the people. What is horrifying to me is how easily it was done. Not only did almost half the voters in this country go along like sheep to the slaughter, but our congress stood by and applauded as two elections failed the simplest tests of legitimacy, as the patriot act was passed, as most government agencies were gutted and loaded with incompetent cronies (e.g. FEMA), as we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq on the flimsiest of pretexts, as our children were saddled with a debt that will destroy this country's economy. And let's not forget the supreme court, which handed the first contested election to a bunch of thugs without even blushing. Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 6, 2005, at 8:11 AM, Andy Karpay wrote: fas.cism n. 1. often Fascism 1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. 2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. 2. Oppressive, dictatorial control. ___ -- Mike K AntiFossil MN, USA For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the very definition of slavery: Jonathan Swift ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans!
Thank you Alan, I'm one of those people who focused on Orleans. You're absolutely right, I was missing the larger picture. So many of us have been outraged about one city, whether over the foolishness of living underwater, or the incredible incompetence of abatement and rescue efforts at every level of government, or the blatant racism that calls blacks looters and whites shoppers, or the blatant classism that makes the poor less worth saving And even our attention to New Orleans is obviously racism, classism, expressed. Who cares about Alabama and Mississippi, the birthplaces of the Civil Rights movement, when New Orleans, the home of jazz and american cuisine is threatened? (sarcasm alert) Thanks again for the reality check, Taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 6, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote: Can we have a little perspective here, please? With all of the media attention so tightly focused on New Orleans people have totally lost sight of the big picture. New Orleans is only one tiny spot in a VERY large disaster area, and many areas are worse off than New Orleans. New Orleans is, what, about 50 square miles, perhaps 100? This is out of a disaster area covering an estimated 90,000 square miles! To put that figure into perspective, it's larger than the entire United Kingdom. This is a disaster area that covers not only New Orleans, but also most of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, western Florida, south Florida, western Georgia and western Tennessee. The headlines read New Orleans Spared, which it largely was until the levees broke. Compared to areas just a little bit east, New Orleans was indeed spared the brunt of the storm. That fell largely on Mississippi and Alabama. While New Orleans is dealing with flooding from broken levees, there are areas of Gulfport and Pascagoula that have been completely washed off of the map. If the levees had held then this storm would have been, to put it into the words of a New Orlean, just another hurricane. In the immediate aftermath of the storm 60% of the state of Mississippi was without electricity. 80% was without phones. A large part of the problem for relief agencies getting into the area was that many, perhaps hundreds, of bridges were damaged or washed out by the storm. Add to this other problems like trees and debris in the roads and it made the going slow indeed. The storm carried hurricane force winds over a hundred miles inland, and tropical storm force winds all the way into Tennessee. It was a slow moving storm, so an area of coastline 150 miles wide was lashed by hurricane force winds for a solid 14 hours, while getting drenched by 12 inches of rain. The biggest killer from hurricanes is not the wind or the storm surge, but flooding from torrential rains, which Katrina produced in abundance in a swath that went all the way up into the northeast. Katrina is not simply the storm that ate New Orleans, but is the most costly natural disaster to ever hit the United States. So, to put it into television parlance, can we please zoom out and take a look at the wide shot? AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
Hi all, I wandered the web for a bit and found these as well many others: http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/Overview.html http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar99/922773845.Eg.r.html http://www.google.com/search? q=commercial+aircraft+fuel+efficiency++turboprop While these don't give specific answers, It seems like turboprops might be most efficient for delivering large loads, fairly quickly, with least fuel. Seems like one of the issues is pounds of fuel per hour vs speed. Does anyone know the fuel costs associated with delivering people at 800 kmph versus the 500 kmph? Should we be replacing our medium range jet fleets with turboprops? Taryn. http://ornae.com/ On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote: Greg and April wrote: The short answer is no. The short answer is _yes_. Baylor University did some testing with B20 in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I can't find it just now. A Google search of the site produced this: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 19981001_gen-106.pdf Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report is available here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 19950601_gen-144.pdf Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines. As long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what they're running on. You should see the list of alternate fuels for the OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! ... Jet travel is also one of the least efficient forms of transportation there is. That depends on how you look at it. If you consider it in terms of passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC, which beats most SUV's. I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, but I have lost it. ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..
Hi, Kim I think that both HO and chlorine act as oxidizers, providing similar sanitizing effects, but I'm awfully rusty. Oh! Accidental pun, my favorite kind! And here in florida they use copper compounds to reduce algae growth in slow moving waters. As I seem to recall people tossing a few pennies in their mood fountains to keep the water clear. Sorry to hear about your allergies. I take a middle ground on lots of organic/synthetic issues but I've friends who've become wildly sensitized. Taryn On Sep 1, 2005, at 7:04 PM, Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I was suggesting an alternative for those whose health is of vital importance, to them. I am fighting hard to prevent myself from becoming totally chemically sensitive, so I can still have a life. Many of the things our government says are safe are responsible for people becoming like I am, allergic to everything. If it is too much bother to find out how to use alternatives, then so be it. No need to ridicule the information. Bright Blessings, Kim At 05:39 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote: at what concentration is hydrogen peroxide safe? At what concentration is chlorine bleach unsafe? also at what concentration is H2O2 effective and at what concentration is chlorine ineffective against what organisms? viruses? bacteria? cryptosporidium? giradia? amoeba? nematodes? etc. darn, things can get complex in a hurry if you think about it. sorry Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, Actually, I prefer hydrogen peroxide to chlorine for keep my water fresh. It does not have the toxic effects, especially for young girls and child bearing aged women. Sorry, but chlorine is not safe. Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:51 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote: Thanks for the info Emil. I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread. Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though. We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an emergency. Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter. It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored. Better safe than sorry. Brian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost
Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with is there blame? I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again. Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school. But I think Katrina, and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans. taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm How New Orleans Was Lost By Paul Craig Roberts 09/01/05 Antiwar -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of Bush's Iraq war. There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and rescue people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against looting. The situation is the same in Mississippi. The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq. The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in the Bush administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the generals, who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the job. After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals were right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps. Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV the families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed homes. The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place massive sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few helicopters away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water. What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war – one of our oldest and most beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city. Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made no preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are FEMA and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and equipment to save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis. Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public statements by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the Bush administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers' projects to strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to the Iraq war. Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told the New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us. Why can't the U.S. government focus on America's needs and leave other countries alone? Why are American troops in Iraq instead of protecting our own borders from a mass invasion by illegal immigrants? Why are American helicopters blowing up Iraqi homes instead of saving American homes in New Orleans? How can the Bush administration be so incompetent as to expose Americans at home to dire risks by exhausting American resources in foolish foreign adventures? What kind of homeland security is this? All Bush has achieved by invading Iraq is to kill and wound thousands of people while destroying America's reputation. The only beneficiaries are oil companies capitalizing on a good excuse to jack up the price of gasoline and Osama bin Laden's recruitment. What we have is a Republican war for oil company profits while New Orleans sinks beneath the waters. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
In captions on news photos of Orleans: White people who were carrying boxes were 'scavenging'. Black people who were carrying boxes were 'looting'. Both the white scavengers and the black looters were collecting stuff that was certain to be a complete write-off for whomever owned it before. Who cares if a wet TV ends up in someone's new cardboard home? Robert Heinlein (I think) once said, The punishment for stupidity is death. If you're seeking consumer electronics instead of water, food, and medicine, the Darwin effect is sure to get you. When some poor fool gets caught with a few joints, more than once, we toss him in prison for a long mandatory sentence, often evicting some rapist or murderer who wasn't mandatorily sentenced. When some rich fool gets caught defrauding 300 million people, we re-elect him. Ok, that's my rant for the evening, g'night all. taryn http://ornae.com/ On Sep 1, 2005, at 10:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim, You and Greg are not the only ones who feel that way. I am just getting caught up on the day's email, and I found that I agree more with you two that most of the others on this particular topic. If I lived in a disaster-prone area, like Southern Louisiana, Florida, Southern California or even Seattle/Tacoma area, I would certainly prepare for the worst. I also do not condemn the people who attempted to help themselves. In fact, I do feel sorry for those souls who did evacuate (or tried to) and now do not know where their homes are still standing or have been stripped clean by selfish looters. I would gladly open my home to someone in that situation, whether I knew them well or not. For those who stayed behind against the warnings of the weather experts (including the non-governmental ones), state and local governments, don't worry, the Fed's will come in and bail you out as they always do. I just hope that the local police get a copy of the news tapes showing the faces of those looters carrying TVs DVD players out of the abandoned stores. What do you need a TV for when the power is expected to be out for weeks or months? It would be nice to see some prosecuted. Thanks, Earl Kinsley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today. - President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906 - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame? Greetings, I am wondering, are Greg and I the only ones that feel frustration with people who don't care about their lives, then expect someone else to pick up the pieces? Greg has not condemned anyone who tried to help themselves, just those who don't. I can remember my parents being irate with a neighbor when we were growing up for the same kind of behavior. There was a broken water main and it flooded the basements of the houses. The one guy on the street that was always bragging about his new toys, was the one that didn't have the money to fix his house, because he didn't pay his insurance premiums. I mean, who expects a flood in Calgary, Alberta, Canada? I am afraid they were not very polite when someone came canvassing for money to help the guy. How about: God helps those who help themselves? I don't see that a rant against people who have endangered themselves and others is out of line. And yes, I have already donated help and I am working on more for the people of Louisianna. Bright Blessings, Kim At 03:54 PM 9/1/2005, you wrote: I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how you express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets worse. Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Flywheel 'batteries'
If you're running a huge fixed flywheel for hours or days at a time, doesn't precession become an issue? Even with vacuum containment etc, don't the bearing get creamed by the lateral forces? taryn http://ornae.com/ On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:37 PM, Tony DeCarmine wrote: Evening, all - Jerry wrote - I really like the idea of flywheels as opposed to batteries for wind/solar storage, I'm suprised no one has mentioned them yet. Flywheels are another painfully efficient old technology, still in use today in your typical piston engine for load leveling. It's just that the load leveling happens over fractions of a second rather than over hours or days. Chrysler tried a flywheel car - it almost worked. I expect it was another intentional failure. Anyway - flywheels to store angular momentum are the way to go, just like using solar for heat is a more efficient path than PV. Flywheels had a problem in cars because cars may tilt (uphill, downhill c) which causes grief if the bearing system can't comply with the change. A stationary flywheel (likely horizontal) would be a fine way to store horsepower-hours, if you can overcome the friction issues. Magnetic bearings and a vacuum bottle would be required. Troll about on www.amasci.com for cheap and inventive ways to do things like this. Bill Beatty runs this site and it just plain rocks. BTW - as of now, unleaded regular is typically $3/gal and diesel as high as $3.50/gal here is eastern Connecticut, USA. Pax, Tony -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/85 - Release Date: 8/30/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Hi Jerome, I don't know about the energy conversion efficiencies of a wind-electric-H2/O2-hPEM-electric-load, but at first blush it seems to have too many stages to achieve reasonable efficiency. according to Amory Lovins, apparently an H2 advocate, http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ msg50034.html the electric-H2/O2 conversion is up to 75% efficient. Assuming the same efficiency for the hPEM-electric conversion, the storage cycle would have about 57% efficiency. Battery conversion efficiency is very dependent on charge and discharge rates, and battery type, but the Iowa Energy Center claims that (lead acid?) batteries have 60-80% cycle efficiencies.http://www.energy.iastate.edu/renewable/wind/wem/wem -07_systems.html Of course you'd want to factor in the cost and life span of batteries vs hPEM. This is a tougher call since fuel cells are a quickly evolving technology. I think Garth and Kim's strategy, of modular, redundant conversion and storage systems would prove most useful in off-the-grid situations, since they're not striving for best efficiency, but highest reliability. On a related note, I'd once been a fan of fully decoupled hybrid car designs, using a motor/brake in each wheel hub, and no powertrain except the engine generator coupling. This is approximately how diesel-electric locomotives work, able to generate huge starting torque with their electrics. When I first saw the Honda hybrid designs, I thought it was silly to couple the drive electrics right to the engine. After studying the design further I realized how incredibly clever it really was, since it eliminated the duplication of heavy field windings and/or magnets in the generator and motors, partly offsetting the weight and complexity of transmission and transaxles. Furthermore, by retaining the coupling between engine and wheels, energy conversion losses were minimized. I still think that fully decoupled hybrids have a place, but perhaps more in heavily loaded city delivery trucks and the like, since they need torque more than horsepower and could gain a lot of space and design flexibility by eliminating the long heavy, drive train. Also, heavy slow vehicles gain more from electric recovery braking than fast light vehicles. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 30, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Why do you hate batteries? They are a needed device. I would rather have a hydrogen PEM fuel cell setup. Use wind to feed a water seperation tank then feed the H2/O2 to the hPEM. Only use the hPEM when power beyond the wind source is needed, or at locations remote from the wind fed grid. Jeromie Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I hate batteries. That is why I want a system that I can power with methane if I need power when the sun is not shining. I use almost no power after the sun goes down, most of the year. We do not watch tv or other wasteful appetites for power, but, I do sometimes like to sew at night, so having the option of turning the power on, I like. Most people would be unhappy with a system that I can live with, I don't mind a little inconvenience, it just reminds me how lucky I am to have power. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:17 AM 8/30/2005, you wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
Hi, Juan and Greg On Aug 31, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Juan Gutierrez wrote: People, were there first and form there own local governments before the feds showed up. besides aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves or do you want the feds or corporate bigwigs telling you where you should live. I live in South Florida also where is this High(ish) ground you speak of its all swamps west of Miami. And Greg wrote: I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for all the problems. I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it became an important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and laws that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry the larger burden of guilt. I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started public works to drain and protect the city. Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in Hobson's choice, http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html, can we so blithely say aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves? Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is) that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it, about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp often floods. Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying future in the gulf states, Taryn ornae.com P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alternative batteries
The storage of energy by lifting water has a long and successful history. I think it's common for hydropower companies to use excess or off-peak power to push water up into the reservoir, increasing head pressure for peak demands. Hmmm... kinda stinks of perpetual motion eh? Windmills have also been used to lift water to millponds. I suppose the advantage is torque conversion as well as time shifting. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 31, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Joe Street wrote: Yes I have also heard of using a wind turbine to turn an air compressor and store energy in compressed air. I don't know about the efficiency though. Joe Brian Rodgers wrote: A friend who coincidentally thinks I am a nut job, said he made a system back in the 'old days' in which a small water turbine powered by a small stream pumped water into a storage tank as well as generate electricity. Somehow this system was augmented with a small wind generator. He said that when the wind wasn't blowing water was released from the tank through the turbine turning the generator generating electricity. Sorry my brain is not completely clear on the details of these two systems. More than likely he was talking two different systems. The point that I thought was notable is that he used a water tank to store energy. Filling the tank when energy was there, either through solar, wind or hydraulic. Brian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Why Bob! What are you saying? Everybody knows that magnets are an almost infinite source of free energy!* Here's a simple experiment you can do yourself: Find a bar magnet, stronger is better. wrap about 50 feet of very thin varnished copper wire around your finger loosely, so you can pull off the coil. Solder the the two ends to the contacts on a 1.5 volt peanut bulb. Move the bar magnet quickly back and forth inside your coil. Voila! Free energy! Wait... don't... stop... Oh man, you broke it!** On Aug 31, 2005, at 3:52 PM, bob allen wrote: magnetic energy agh. please anybody that believes in magnets as a source of energy, go build one and then give me a report. There are even plans out there. * This is a lie. ** For the humor impaired, this is a joke. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
Hi Marylynn, The perspective you add for Louisiana's early history brings it strikingly close to the Netherlands, in a single overwhelming facet: They built where they did because there was nowhere else to build. Where do you build if your whole territory is tidal basin, swamp and river delta? As far as a planned city, few cities were planned then, or even now. Excepting cities like Washington, DC, designed (and built on reclaimed swamp) as a monumental city and seat of government, most american cities are patchwork accidents, shaped by geography, cronyism and profiteering far more than formal planning. Greg said, New Orleans is a city that should have never been built.. Of course that's true, but so is Venice, so is Los Angeles, so is Las Vegas. All of these cities have some fatal flaw; too much water, too little water, no local resources, etc. And every time, folks came to settle and either did not know what disaster they were precipitating or just didn't care. On Aug 31, 2005, at 11:10 PM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote: OK .. well .. history New Orleans, as was the rest of Louisiana (remember something called the Louisiana Purchase) owned by the French and was an important port of trade. But really only a port that sent goods to another land. New Orleans was also the only area in the south that contained a population of free black. It also needs to be understood that the majority of those free black were from a line of freed slaves (women) who were the contract purchased mistresses of the wealthier French gentry .. and of course .. their offspring .. sometimes many, many generations .. with mothers conducting negotiations on behalf of their daughters to obtained the best possible contract to ensure their future wealth. The whiter the skin the more desirable. Laws were passed .. because after many generations of black having children fathered by white the features nor the darker skin was no longer there .. these laws required all colored women (any colored blood) to wear head scarves. I have a thing about head scarves!! .. and .. no .. my ethnic background is German/English/Irish/Scotch/with a bit of Swedish (as if a bit of anything could fit in there). The old French Quarter was .. in a large part .. whole sections of neighborhoods (individual houses) that the French gentry would buy for his contract acquired (usually for life) concubine .. these were actual contracts .. and even if the the gentleman grew tired of his mistress .. the wealth/the house/the contract was fulfilled .. this property was in the name of the mistress and was hers and hers alone. If his wealth permitted he could enter into another contract with another woman. New Orleans wasn't a planned neighborhood .. but historically, it has gain a certain reputation of being a great place to party. Party people flocked toward that kind of environment .. and business follows. The fact that oil was discovered in the Gulf just adds to the population .. the businesses .. and the party. .. as an after-thought, once the Americans purchased that area from the French .. a large percentage of the free black disappeared (sold north) and their property somehow landed in the hands of others. Mary Lynn Mary Lynn Schmidt ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Animal Behavior Modification . Behavior Problems . Ordained Minister . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Radionics . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Herbs. . Polarity . Reiki . Spiritual Travel The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame? Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:36:29 -0600 I sorry as all get out for the folks in New Orleans. But New Orleans is a city that should have never been built. I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for all the problems. I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it became an important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and laws that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry the larger burden of guilt. Since I first learned of the below sea level issues surrounding New Orleans, I have often wondered if the U.S. would be better served by letting go of the present location of the city, and rebuilding in a location better suited for a city. Several times I have tried to tally the total preventive and running maintenance cost of trying to prevent, what has now happened in New Orleans, but, have failed each time.With the millions spent each year, the total must be in the billions by now.And now they have to rebuild virtually the
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
Hi Greg, On Aug 31, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Greg and April wrote: They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they should have a better grasp of just how bad things are. You guys are tough! Ok, fair enough. Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front porch and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the reporter to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were trying for a Darwin award. ROFL! Y'know, most of us are sheep, and never do really learn to think for ourselves. When the shepherd drags an idiot lamb out of the brambles, she does a great disservice to the race of sheep, though the lamb may come to love her. If we're going to assign culpability, I might first look to the media, the fourth estate, which has completely abandoned its role of supporting an informed citizenry. Eh... maybe not. After all, Fox loves the panic story, but they're not much for risk assessment. I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have the combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes. Wamsutter WY is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does , after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000. Greg H. Dunno, but there will always be those foolish and greedy enough to return to Orleans. Taryn http://ornae.com/ - Original Message - From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame? SNIP I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started public works to drain and protect the city. Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in Hobson's choice, http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/ 23.html, can we so blithely say aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves? Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is) that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it, about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp often floods. Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying future in the gulf states, Taryn ornae.com P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Religion, Politics Biofuels, and Illusion
Hi Keith, et alii. On Aug 30, 2005, at 3:35 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Taryn, Pannirselvam Did you read this? http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-August/003230.html Or: http://snipurl.com/hb3u [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers Who Would Jesus Assassinate? Hugo Chavez and the Men Who Claim to Speak for Jesus Yes, I did read them. Following them, or a similar thread, (now misplaced) led me to some striking information regarding the US's post-war anti-communist efforts in Italy, and later in Latin America. Following that taught me more about the role of the jesuits, and liberation theology, in Latin American politics. Trying to recover that misplaced thread last night led to many sites accusing liberation theologists of being pawns of the communists. Then to some ugly accusations regarding the role of the jesuits in bringing together the Vatican and the National Socialists (Nazis) in pre-war Germany. Of course, the German National Socialist Party was socialist in name only by the 1940s. So, I too, learn more of the twisted history that led to our bizarre predicaments of today, reading the Biofuel list. It is truly a great resource, let me add my thanks to that expressed by Doug and Pannirselvam. (and many others) In one more strange twist of fate, the venues that bring us all together; ethernet, bsd servers, and the internet, were developed with much funding from ARPA, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Defense_Advanced_Research_Projects_Agency which was created to respond to The Communist Threat. Now of course the internet is one of our best tools for responding to the Capitalist Threat. Regarding the Clash of Civilisations, it's astonishing that Christians, Jews, and Muslims, all worshipping the same God of Israel, have been at each others throats, squabbling over the parched scraps of a long gone society, for more than a thousand years. For anyone perplexed over this conflict, I highly recommend Tom Robbins' Skinny Legs and All. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553377884 I've re-read this a few times in my struggles to understand the middle east. It is illuminating, to say the least. If you've not read Robbins' stuff before, you might want start with a few of his earlier works, e.g. Still Life with Woodpecker or Jitterbug Perfume, since his work is rich and complex. Again, thanks to all here who help us see past the veils, to a larger world. Taryn ornae.com I was wanting to say something about liberation theology but I posted that instead. By the way, here's Doug's post, Religion, Politics Biofuels, and Thanks!: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-August/003279.html Or: http://snipurl.com/hb3w I don't want to interpret, but I think what Doug's talking about is mainly how religion-of-a-sort is driving politics and the other issues in the US and in US foreign policy, along with the nonsense about the US and Islam, the odious Clash of Civilisations type of thinking and so on, and maybe the strange marriage of Christian Zionists in the US and colonial Zionism in Israel and its effects on politics, foreign policy, Middle East oil and all the fish. On the other hand, there's India and Pakistan, who should surely be brothers rather than nuclear enemies... They don't seem to refer to each other as Indians and Pakistanis as often as Hindus and Muslims. Isn't it time to seek to bury the hatchet somewhere else than in each other's heads? Best wishes Keith Hello Pannirselvam, Forgive me for taking exception to some things you said to Doug. I've ... American Evangelical Fundamentalist sects are also gaining power in Latin America, and they too are a constant source of AIDS misinformation. As they have no history of liberation theology, we can be sure that their missions will be bound to NeoCon goals. I certainly agree with your suspicions about corporate and media power being used to suppress democratic processes all over the world, but I suspect that the church often falls on the wrong side of this battle, they have usually supported the economic elite in class struggles, even as their missionaries were striving to help the poor and dispossessed. I know you're 'on the ground' in Brazil, and you're seeing many courageous, dedicated christians doing good works, against great odds. I guess I'm trying to say that you're seeing those with 'true religion with ethics and also true democratic politics' actually doing what needs doing. Those who send them often have other goals. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 29, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Pannirselvam P.V wrote: Dear Doug Swanson I appreciate your well thoughtful letter regarding our list.But I am not able to fully understand yet that religion develop illusion as I native of India , presently in Brazil . Here religion
Re: [Biofuel] Linux, virii and Microsoft
On Aug 30, 2005, at 8:19 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: I totally agree. My only complaint w/ Linux is that after I install a Linux/Samba server, I never see the client again! I have servers running over 600 days. I make my living on (ick!) Windows machines. They blow up all the time. ROFL Mike! I've been watching the linux/win debate shaping up here on the list and trying to stay out of it. After all how many religious wars can one woman get into at the same time? I use Linux or BSD on servers, and MacOS X on workstations. I think for non-nerds, MacOS X is much more approachable than Windows, Linux, or a naked BSD machine. Apple has open-sourced most of MacOS X as Darwin, keeping only the GUI and some apps and drivers proprietary http://developer.apple.com/darwin/ http://www.opendarwin.org/ I too find myself constantly patching up blasted WinPCs. Personally I won't use the crap from Redmond, not even Word and Office. (And don't even get me started on PowerPointless!) Invariably it's the same question and the same answer: How can I keep my computer from catching virii? Get a Mac. From http://ornae.com/30/torturing-your-customers-a-business-model (If you want references, see the original article, it's full of links.) Torturing your customers, A Business Model The recording industry has invested a great deal of time and money in a variety of schemes purporting to protect the rights of musicians. Of course they haven’t even slowed down either casual or professional pirates. Mostly, all they’ve done is annoy their customer base by making CDs that don’t play right. I’m not writing today to blast BMG, Sony, and the RIAA, they’re getting plenty of heat already. But I want to draw a parallel between the way the recording industry and Microsoft treat their customers. I just spent a few days rebuilding some WinXP machines for my neighbors that had succumbed to hardware failures and/or Windows malware , In each instance, the neighbor asked, ‘Why do these machines fail so quickly? Why is it so tedious to fix them?’ The first question deserves a few thousand words, but there have been millions written already and flame wars are tedious too. The most direct answer to the second question is, “Microsoft intentionally makes it damn near impossible for users to create bootable backups, or even useful offline backups.” Their licensing and copy protection schemes include components that prevent disk cloning, and prevent disk images from booting if they were created by cloning, that force relicensing when a computer has parts replaced. This of course doesn’t slow down teenage script kiddies and professional OS counterfeiters in the least, but it does make life miserable for every legitimate windows user on the planet. In an ideal world, you would use simple commands or GUI tools to create a mirror image of your installed and customized system on separate partitions or disks. Other simple tools would allow you choose which image your system booted from. When that image booted, it would work right whether it was drive C:, D: or Z:, That image would boot correctly, even if it was hooked up to a significantly different computer. This is not an imaginary ideal, it is the world of Linux, of BSD UNIX, of MacOS. Only Windows OSes fall on their swords, on purpose, when users do perfectly reasonable things like pull a backup drive out of the safe and try to boot it on a new computer. Why is this a reasonable thing? Well the payroll computer caught fire yesterday, and we need to make payroll today. But Microsoft doesn’t see it that way, they think their customers are all thieves and are trying to steal WinXP. Yeah, like we really care! So, there’s the parallel. The recording industry exhibits complete disdain for their customers, (And their suppliers, most musicians are treated like dogs by recording companies.) Microsoft subscribes to the same business model, drumming up business by trotting out the next big thing, which is usually entirely derivative, gouging huge profits, while treating the buyers like cattle at best, and thieves at worst. Bad enough we paid money for this stuff, how much of our precious time must we spend trying to restore a machine taken to its knees by the virus of the day. I’m sure many of you are going to trot out Ghost, or Partition Magic, or the latest Whiz-bang Norton tool, or BackupOmatic II, as your personal favorite fix for this problem. Just like you, I’ve come up with ways to defeat the intent of Microsoft, so I could get some work done. But the fact still stands: They did this on purpose, and all it really does is torture their customers. Taryn ornae.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the
Re: [Biofuel] US Intelligent Design Campaign and natural disaster hits oil prices.
Thank you Bob, this is too funny, Also have a look at these disclaimer stickers. http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/ Taryn ornae.com On Aug 30, 2005, at 8:32 AM, bob allen wrote: no, no Mike, the real truth about origins can be found in the following: http://www.venganza.org/ (you really need to follow the link for the graphs.) TO KANSAS SCHOOL BOARD I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design. Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him. ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and gave my neighborhood a teeny slap, on her way out to the gulf. Now 1.5 million people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New Orleans alone. Entrepreneurs and businesses have always gone where the resources are. Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are. Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it a city. http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 1200 miles of winding bottomland river into an 800 mile ditch, contained (theoretically) by 7 meter levees. Homes, factories, and farms fill the bottomland right up to the levies. In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or wetlands. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want to take them out of production. There are lots of places in this country where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous location, like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic coast, or the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles. But you can't expect to live on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and buffering swamp? Should governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of Miami every time a hurricane scours them out? People have to find work, they have to live where they work, what can you do? Taryn ornae.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
I live in South Florida, on high(ish) ground. Katrina came past and gave my neighborhood a little slap, on her way out to the warm gulf waters, where she organized into a cat 5 hurricane. Now 1.5 million people are homeless, jobless, and in shock, just from New Orleans alone. There's no guessing how many will be dead when all is accounted for. Entrepreneurs and businesses have always gone where the resources are. Regular folks follow behind because that's where the jobs are. Government comes along and surrounds a swamp with levees, and calls it a city. http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html And of course the Army Corps of Engineers comes along and turns 2000 miles of winding bottomland river into a 1000 mile ditch, contained (theoretically) by 14 meter levees. Homes, factories, and farms fill the bottomland right up to the levies. In a free society, you can't prevent people from trying to turn a swamp into a suburb, unless you buy the land and turn it into park or preserve. Ever since agriculture started on the Nile, we've known that flood plains are great places to grow crops, so you don't really want to take them out of production. Of course if you dam off the river, the plain is no longer renewed, topsoil leaches away, and the land starts to sink even lower. Then there are lots of places in this country where the ONLY justification for building homes is gorgeous location, like Miami Beach and all the other sandbars on our Atlantic coast, or the muddy, fire prone hills above Los Angeles. People have to find work, they have to live where they work. New Orleans grew where it did because it was a handy place for a port that served the Mississippi, there was rich fishing in the gulf, it was marginally drier than much of the wetland around it. But, like Venice, it's been sinking since it was built, http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline03/0603feat.html and just like the proverbial frog in a slowly heating kettle, few have ever decided it was time to get out. But you can't expect to live below sea level next to a sea, or on a flood plain, or a sand bar, or a muddy hillside, or a dry pine forest, and be safe. Should governments issue building permits in swamps? Should insurance companies write fire policies on wooden houses in pine forests? Flood policies on swamps and flood plains? Should governments try to control mighty rivers from headwaters to delta, destroying wetlands and the buffering swamp? Should governments dredge millions of tons of sand back onto the beaches of Miami every time a hurricane scours them out? Do citizens have a right to settle in the path of disaster? Does government have an obligation to make extraordinary efforts to save them from that disaster? Whether we ever get New Orleans dry again, or not, perhaps it should be condemned as unfit for human habitation. Made partly into a memorial (To stubborn denial in the face of the obvious?) and the rest back to wetland. We certainly need the wetlands, and I'd bet that if the Mississippi was allowed to set her own course, in only a decade or two the entire bowl of New Orleans would become fine breeding grounds, once again filling the gulf with life. I'm not sure I even know my own position on all this, but I've lived in the path of hurricanes for many years. I can't help but stroll the beaches of our barrier islands, looking at houses and condos, built on SAND BARS, and ask, Are these people nuts? How can they live here and expect sympathy and support when a storm sweeps the land right out from under them? What lunatic zoning board said it was alright to sell condos on sand bars? The buildings do sit on pilings driven a dozen meters or more into our very soft bedrock, but that only means they might not wash away immediately, instead perching on stilts in the Atlantic ocean, when the storm moves the barrier island out from under them. And it will, sooner or later. Taryn ornae.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams... Oops, double post.
Sorry, the earlier posting (20:35:45) is incomplete, I had no idea it went out until I noticed the double post on the archives. Keith, It's hardly important, but I wondered if there is a simple way to toss duplicates and accidents from the archives? Taryn ornae.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Religion, Politics Biofuels, and Illusion
Hello Pannirselvam, Forgive me for taking exception to some things you said to Doug. I've assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you're looking at the works of the Catholic church in Brazil, from a Hindu perspective. It has been years since I last studied the Bhagavada Gita, but I continue to practice hatha yoga for the mental and physical benefits. I greatly admire Hinduism as a path for spiritual growth but have always been troubled by several Hindu precepts (assumptions?). Here in the west, Darwin's theories, nature red in tooth and claw, were used as justification for Social Darwinism, which claimed that the poor were inferior, evolutionary failures, and not deserving of opportunity, education, or fair treatment. I see reincarnation, and the caste system, as serving a similar function in Hinduism; the lower castes are seen as failed souls, not enlightened enough to deserve a place in society. I have read that many schools of Hindu thought are rejecting the caste system, as is the government of India, but that the bigotry and sexism continue. So in that sense, religion, for a native of India, seems to be a tool of oppression, creating economic and social disparity without regard to the 'worldly value' of individuals, hence a source of illusion. Regarding the Catholic church in Latin America; while doing much good work, they have also consistently spread misinformation about the use of condoms and other birth control methods. http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/2003/AD032597.html This has accelerated the spread of AIDS in Catholic countries, and caused many thousands of unnecessary deaths. It's my understanding that there is now a schism between the Vatican and many Brazilian clerics over this, with the local priests and bishops denouncing the Vatican's anti-condom stance. http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/051005G.shtml This is certainly a welcome change, but the Vatican continues it's policies against AIDS prevention education. It's not the first time the Vatican has taken a stance obviously against Christ's teaching, often only to serve their economic or political goals. A bright spot in all this has been the emergence of Catholic Liberation Theology, which at least provides a counter force to the constant capitalist propaganda imposed on all the Americas. American Evangelical Fundamentalist sects are also gaining power in Latin America, and they too are a constant source of AIDS misinformation. As they have no history of liberation theology, we can be sure that their missions will be bound to NeoCon goals. I certainly agree with your suspicions about corporate and media power being used to suppress democratic processes all over the world, but I suspect that the church often falls on the wrong side of this battle, they have usually supported the economic elite in class struggles, even as their missionaries were striving to help the poor and dispossessed. I know you're 'on the ground' in Brazil, and you're seeing many courageous, dedicated christians doing good works, against great odds. I guess I'm trying to say that you're seeing those with 'true religion with ethics and also true democratic politics' actually doing what needs doing. Those who send them often have other goals. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 29, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Pannirselvam P.V wrote: Dear Doug Swanson I appreciate your well thoughtful letter regarding our list.But I am not able to fully understand yet that religion develop illusion as I native of India , presently in Brazil . Here religion always do better thing , the school , the hospital , the project for the poor people . I believe the illusion are made by Big Blue Corporate company against true religion with ethics and also true democratic politics using money power making the illusions. Surely all are inter related and I agree with you that Biofuel bring the people together independent of politics and religions showing the truth and showing the green way and great future for global sustainability. sd Pannirselvam P.V. On 8/27/05, des [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: politics lately; as well as the diversity in the biofuels subjects. (I ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez
On Aug 27, 2005, at 10:41 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: Oh, I don't mind a few shots - been known to dish them out myself! I guess I would turn the tables and ask if you ever heard of an actual communist system? I can't think of one. Almost all had major built in flaws, ranging from phony economic figures to police state governments. I've never heard of a state actually withering away ;-) Italy, Russia, the Soviet bloc. Hi Mike, I think that communism may only work well with very small populations, 'tribe sized', say ... less than a thousand citizen/members. The best example I know is the Israeli communes, where each formed a single economic unit in the larger democractic-capitalistic state. The Israeli communes, of which my extended family has intimate knowledge, were essentially worker-owned corporations, with all participants drawing almost identical wages, and enjoying the same standard of living. In the successful, well-organized communes, they often incorporated farming, craft and art work, and light industries, to realize a high standard of living and significant profits. Even this example has a dark underbelly: (besides palestine) the third generation is leaving the communes to work in the cities. The communes must recruit idealistic immigrants or fold from labor shortages. I'm of an age to have participated in and observed the communal efforts of the 60s and 70s here in the US. We were often spoiled, ill-prepared city dwellers, with little understanding of soil qualities, land management, husbandry, or work ethic. But even here, against a great deal of government persecution, some efforts did succeed, but usually only for a few generations. OTOH, I can't say I can think of a pure and functional democractic-capitalistic state either. Certainly not here or in Europe. As I said earlier, I think the best bet is a robust economy with some socialistic (There! I said it!) notions thrown in. As the large countries of Eastern Europe are (and have) learned, you can't just conjure an economy. You have to have money to make the goodies flow. Too high a tax rate, and most of the businesses leave for greener pastures. Look at the film industry in the UK. Up until Thatcher (and no, I am NOT a big fan) came in, they country taxed them into...the US! Now of course, our own companies are fleeing to Canada because they have *gasp* socialised medicine. I will never understand why the US is so anti socialised medicine. Jeez, even in the Red state of Virginia we have socialized schools, trash pickup, water why not health care? Beats me. If Medicare and Medicade is so popular, and efficient, then why not expand it? Just another example of our wealthy masters' propaganda machinery persuading the majority to vote against their own interests. I can't speak for medicaid, run by the states individually, but I spent a few years as my grandmother's guardian, navigating social security and medicare for her. Let me assure you that the neocon propaganda against social security and medicare is purest BS. They are incredibly well run, far better than any private insurance company I've ever dealt with. The administration overhead for both systems is much less than similar private systems. While doctors often bitch about the low reimbursement rates from medicare, they will quickly admit that the system is very competent. (Especially those doctors imprisoned for medicare fraud.) Medicare works almost perfectly, it would be an excellent model for a nationalized health plan. In fact, the only problems with medicare are those being caused by the new drug bill recently passed by the republican congress, which was a huge corporate welfare gift to drug manufacturers, at the expense of consumers and taxpayers. Taryn ornae.com -Mike TarynToo wrote: It's impossible to say Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help, since every state that has attempted communism, with few exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some combination of economic warfare, bribery and corruption, economic and military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy fascist states. .and other comments... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
As quoted here, what I find interesting about the sedition act is the very specific phrasing: ..utter...abusive language about the form of government of the United States, or the Constitution of the United States... In its first few lines the 1918 act forbids lying about the government and the armed forces, interfering with bond sales and recruiting, suborning the military, and implicitly excludes speaking up about criminal politicians, graft, corruption, election fraud, evil law, etc..., and expressly includes only bad-mouthing our representative democracy and our constitution. Compared to the patriot acts this starts out as a jewel of moderation and clarity. When you read the entire act, a very different picture emerges http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918 It was repealed in 1921, leaving the USA with most of the constitutional protections of free speech and privacy for more than eighty years, until the patriot acts tossed the Bill of Rights into the trash. I'm sure this has been talked to death here already, but I want to point out the incredibly twisted logic that has gripped our government for the last four years: Premise: The terrorists bomb us because they want to destroy our freedoms and democratic way of life Conclusion: Let's win against terrorism by passing laws destroying our freedoms Let's protect democracy by handing our government over to multinational corporations. To protect our democracy, we must retain power at any cost, including the derailing of election safeguards and consistently lying about every aspect of our policies and intentions. We'll make the world safe from terrorism by invading sovereign nations and murdering and crippling huge numbers of Afghanis, Iraqis, and coalition soldiers. If the premise were true, then we've handed the victory to the terrorists in the conclusions. Of course the premise is absurd, half the world (9/10ths?) hates us because we've consistently used our power to advance an agenda of profit first, capitalism first, justice last. Taryn On Aug 28, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Hakan Falk wrote to mike who wrote to keith. Mike, I did not know of the sedition act of 1918: ... Hakan At 17:26 27/08/2005, you wrote: Well done Keith. ... ...shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States, or the Constitution of the United States... When asked about people in US history who I admire most, I will enthusiastically talk about those who have defended and sometimes died defending freedom within it's borders. Coincidentally, few of those people are politicians. Mike Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My my. And I was just thinking you might be a man who'd do a bit of ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez
Oh, Chucky... You should have followed the link: http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html It's clear that Sweden is a success, furthermore it succeeds for many more of its citizens than the USA. The ugliest part of the USA's productivity and per-capita income figures is how much the tiny fraction of the hyper-rich distort those figures. Even as our apparent per-capita income rises, the poor and the middle class are all getting poorer. Taryn ornae.com On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Charles Heinitz wrote: So you think Sweden is a sucess? Try living there with a tax rate of 70%. Chuck From: TarynToo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 20:42:00 -0400 It's impossible to say Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help, since every state that has attempted communism, with few exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some combination of economic warfare, bribery and corruption, economic and military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy fascist states. The exceptions? China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was only communist in name. Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental in the technological, social, and economic success of the country. Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled in communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success, and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA. http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda, McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial interests. I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel free to use facts to support your position. Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except (maybe) that communism always fails. Thanks, Taryn ornae.com On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: Ah, I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help - it blew up in places even where we weren't meddling. My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free market economy and a pragmatic federal government. Think, oh, Finland. I do think the Constitution allows for national health insurance: Quote: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOMTRAN, provide for the common defence http://www.usconstitution.net/constmiss.html, promote the general Welfare http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#POSTERITY, do ordain http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#ORDAIN and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Falls under general Welfare Andy Karpay wrote: ... It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras (Iran-Contra scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our ally of the day, and the proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on. It is stated many times in this country that communism has failed therefore it is no good. The truth is that much of communism's failure, in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention to ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we do have democratic communism). The US's fear is that if the country is communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own gain, and the gain of the wealthy. Remember, without poverty there is no wealth. AK ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
There are any number of people who are calling for Bush to be tried for treason and war crimes. We certainly don't want him to be assassinated! God forbid, we don't need any NeoCon martyrs here. We do expect that he and most of his cabinet will be hung or imprisoned after the trials http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/ usc_sec_18_2381000-.html We're not calling for murder, we're calling for justice and return to the rule of law. Taryn ornae.com Keith said to David who said to Keith I'd personally rate Robertsons comments as up there with any number of people who advocate the death of Bush for crimes against humanity or somesuch. If Bush were assasinated would these people really be responsible? Maybe I didn't notice but I have not heard of anyone calling for the death of Bush. Excepting some of the victims of course, but not anybody in the US, which I think is what you're talking about. Surely you could imagine such a thing? Perhaps around a coffee table? My imagination's quite intact thankyou, but you twice propose this any number of people calling for Bush's death to support your argument and now it turns out they're imaginery. Is it you who's sitting around a coffee table? ... and much more... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Robertson et al VS. followers
Amen Robert! While not a christian, I've read many of the major scriptures of the world. While reading the Robertson thread, I was thinking how badly we needed to hear the Who would Jesus hate? Who would Jesus kill? message. Your message is so on target. The most important teaching we receive, not just from Jesus, but from almost all prophets is Deeds are greater than words. Love the least, as you love the great. Power demands responsibility. If we are to follow their teachings, we must not tend the church, we must tend our hearts and minds, and the whole world. All it takes to distinguish the truly good from the hypocrite, is to attend to their actions more than their words. How sad that so many of us are deceived by the transparent and self-serving lies of our political, spiritual, and commercial masters. We are slaves, the truth will set us free. Thank you, Taryn ornae.com On Aug 26, 2005, at 11:13 AM, robert luis rabello wrote: BT wrote: Greetings fellow revolutionary alchemists! The question I have is, How do we help separate the good-hearted followers from their devious leaders? I've found the best thing to do is go back to the scriptures from whence Christians are supposed to derive standards for their behavior. This is especially true when the argument of you shouldn't judge anyone comes to fore. Now, Jesus himself said this, in the second part of Luke 12: 48: From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Leaders, who ought to know better, are far more accountable than the average person. When Jesus confronted the leaders of his day, he seldom had pleasant words for them for this very reason. Here is an example: Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. (There's a biofuel angle in there!) You brood of vipers! How can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 12: 33 - 37) So, no higher authority than Jesus Christ himself condemns reckless rhetoric, and we who call ourselves Christians should not soft pedal this kind of behavior either. A man like Pat Robertson, who CLAIMS to be a Christian, should have read statements of this nature and taken them to heart long ago. When I complain about this kind of problem, I do so because it degrades the standing of the Christian faith in the eyes of nonbelievers who are watching. If I, a nobody, get upset when the name of God is blasphemed in this manner, shouldn't genuine Christian leaders roundly condemn the same behavior? After all, this is what the scriptures admonish: Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of wrongdoing, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (1 Peter 2: 12) And elsewhere: But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there WILL BE FALSE TEACHERS AMONG YOU. (Emphasis is mine.) They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed, these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up . . . (2 Peter 2: 1 - 3) The fact that Pat Robertson calls himself a Christian disgusts me for this very reason. He's not following the example of Jesus Christ, so by his actions, he denies Christ. If he's impulsive and can't control himself, he has no power from God. A person who calls himself a Christian is one who should know God very well. Therefore: We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him', but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (1 John 2: 3 - 6) So then, if we examine what Jesus did, we will find a man who never sought harm for anyone else. He was a man who lived by high principle and spoke very carefully. He did not advocate violence, he did not stir up a mob to overthrow the Romans, he did not seek political power or financial gain. Therefore, if you see someone who claims to be a Christian doing these things, you can KNOW that he's a liar. Further on, you can read this: Anyone who hates
Re: [Biofuel] Pat Robertson's business affiliation with Hugo Chavez
It's impossible to say Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help, since every state that has attempted communism, with few exceptions, has been destroyed by the U.S.A. and its allies using some combination of economic warfare, bribery and corruption, economic and military support of 'counter-revolutionaries', and support of handy fascist states. The exceptions? China, which was so isolationist and so poor that it wasn't seen as any great threat, and whose own leaders were always so corrupt that it was only communist in name. Israel, whose experiments with small scale communes were instrumental in the technological, social, and economic success of the country. Lots of western and northern european countries have either dabbled in communism (e.g. Italy), or socialism, (e.g. Sweden) with much success, and without the grotesque economic inequalities seen here in the USA. http://www.pkarchive.org/economy/ForRicher.html And of course our most repugnant attack on communism and socialism continues within our own borders, with the state sanctioned murders and beatings of union organizers, persecution and prosecution of accused communists, the unending pro-business, anti-communist propaganda, McCarthy's witch hunts. (now re-invented as the Patriot acts), and the almost complete sellout of media and government to commercial interests. I'm sure that many will take exception to everything I've said. Feel free to use facts to support your position. Oh... Mike, as I re-read this before posting, it seemed like I might be attacking you. Actually I agree with everything you said, except (maybe) that communism always fails. Thanks, Taryn ornae.com On Aug 26, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: Ah, I think Communism would've collapsed even w/o our help - it blew up in places even where we weren't meddling. My own thoughts are realistic Capitalism - a reasonably regulated free market economy and a pragmatic federal government. Think, oh, Finland. I do think the Constitution allows for national health insurance: Quote: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#DOMTRAN, provide for the common defence http://www.usconstitution.net/constmiss.html, promote the general Welfare http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#WELFARE, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#POSTERITY, do ordain http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#ORDAIN and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Falls under general Welfare Andy Karpay wrote: ... It was stated here earlier, but the US is responsible for Allende's death in Chile (1973?), Guevara's death, death in Honduras (Iran-Contra scheme where arms were sold to Iran, our ally of the day, and the proceeds sent to the death squads in Honduras), on and on. It is stated many times in this country that communism has failed therefore it is no good. The truth is that much of communism's failure, in this hemisphere particularly, is due to our country's intervention to ensure the demise of democratically elected leaders (you can, and we do have democratic communism). The US's fear is that if the country is communist, then we cannot exploit the labor and resources for our own gain, and the gain of the wealthy. Remember, without poverty there is no wealth. AK ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iran's Nuclear Program
On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:17 PM, Brian Ramsay wrote: Think about it. If the price of oil keeps climbing, the more oil Iran can sell means more $$ for them. If they are using their oil to run their own country, they are missing out on some big money. Also, it is good to diversify in everything, especially a country's GDP. Oil is essentially a cash crop for Iran, and they have to be hedged in case something happens to that crop. The sense I got was that they not only want nuclear energy for themselves, but they also want to be an exporter as well. So what they are doing is no different than a normal corporation expanding into new areas of business. That's a kind way to see these developments, but I think Iran sees an even more pressing need... Any country with significant energy reserves would be foolish not to enlist allies and develop a nuclear program. With NeoCon warmongers at the helm, the United Empire of Earth is a terrifying enemy. We have absolutely shown the world that we cannot be trusted. That we favor lies and violence over justice. Why shouldn't Iran rush to present a strong defense against the biggest bully in the world. It's a shame that the world is becoming less safe, more unstable. But the USA and its corporate allies are the primary architects of this brutish new world. As long as profit and greed trump all other motives, and the most heavily armed country in the world will take up arms for the financial gain of its masters, every country has something to lose. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Health claims, commercial speech (was Wisdom from the next generation)
I certainly agree that the FDA's efforts to label supplements as drugs is misguided. On the other hand, congressman Paul, by saying... The intent of that act was to allow the manufacturers of foods and dietary supplements to provide consumers with accurate and specific information regarding the curative and preventive effects of foods and dietary supplements. and ... FDA ignored repeated efforts by Congress to protect consumers' First Amendment rights to receive truthful information about the health benefits of foods and dietary supplements. ...is misleading us on the intent of the 1990 act. It was written to prevent the rampant misrepresentation of heavily marketed packaged foods as providing health benefits. The huge food and drug conglomerates like ADM and Pfizer have no compunction about defrauding the public http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/top100.html#Briefs and they have our government deep in their pockets. http://www.projectobject.com/behindbush.html I see a red flag anytime an official starts talking about free commercial speech. It may be that this is a good bill, but frankly, after reading Paul's bill and pieces of the 1990 bill, I just can't tell if this bill will lead to more truth-in-packaging or to more BS-in-packaging. I'd like to know who wrote the bill for Paul, and what the real effect of the bill will be. I strongly question first amendment claims for commercial speech. I think that much of this country's 'consumeritis disease' has been created by aggressive marketing. The federal government has seen fit to limit the speech of liquor and tobacco companies, to protect public health. Here in florida the anti-tobacco 'TRUTH' campaign was incredibly successful at reducing teen smoking, showing just how well advertising can sway consumer opinion. (Of course, it was quickly defunded when it was discovered to be working. http://repositories.cdlib.org/ctcre/tcpmus/FL1999/) Treating corporations as 'persons' with all the attendant rights of persons, is what got us into the first Gilded Age. http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/ http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0101-07.htm This time around the NeoCons and commercial interests have so corrupted the process that the citizens might not get out from under the heel of capitalist fascism until there's just nothing left to plunder. Taryn On Aug 17, 2005, at 8:40 AM, Nancy Canning wrote: A Ray of Hope on the Health Freedom Horizon oeplus_vertical.gif oeplus_hr-rule2.gifAs many of you are aware Americans' health freedoms are currently under attack both from without (Codex/Cafta adversely affecting your access to Vitamins and Minerals) and from within (HR 3156 adversely affecting your access to Natural Herbal Supplements). There is, however, one very encouraging bill introduced by Congressman Ron Paul: HR 2352 Consumers' Access to Health Information Act Here is what Congressman Paul said to Congress when he introduced this Bill three months ago: (highlighting added by us) Mr. Speaker, I rise to enhance the health and liberty of American citizens by introducing the Consumers Access to Health Information Act of 2005. This act ensures consumers can receive truthful information about how foods and dietary supplements can cure, mitigate, and prevent specific diseases. The act does this simply by correcting an erroneous court decision and thus restoring congressional intent to allow consumers to have access to information regarding the health benefits of dietary supplements without government interference. In 1990, responding to the demands of the American people that the federal government respect consumers' right to receive information about the ways foods and dietary supplements can improve their health, Congress passed the Nutrition Labeling and Education Act. The intent of that act was to allow the manufacturers of foods and dietary supplements to provide consumers with accurate and specific information regarding the curative and preventive effects of foods and dietary supplements. However, the Food and Drug Administration, FDA, ignored repeated efforts by Congress to protect consumers' First Amendment rights to receive truthful information about the health benefits of foods and dietary supplements. Incredibly, in the case of Whitaker v. Thompson, the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit supported the FDA's interpretation of Congress's intent and rejected the clear restraints of the First Amendment by ruling that the FDA had the authority to censor information regarding the specific benefits of foods and dietary supplements. Mr. Speaker, under the D.C. Circuit's absurd interpretation of federal law, the only way food and drug manufacturers can transmit information about the health benefits of their products is by going through the lengthy and expensive FDA drug approval process. Because of this court decision, manufacturers are reluctant
Re: [Biofuel] ASTM, was ... Diesel Won't Solve...
Hi Mike, Can you (or others) expand on this please? How much of a fortune? I've been searching for info on the tax and regulatory issues of producing and selling BD on a small scale. I wouldn't mind joining or starting a co-op, but cooperatively-minded folk are thin on the ground in South Florida. Thanks, Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: Also, you can't set up a Biodiesel plant in the US. It's illegal to sell fuel unless you have it tested by ASTM, which costs a fortune. You can brew your own or as part of a coop. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel
Isn't jelly solid ethanol Sterno fuel? Or is Sterno made with methanol? It's hard to imagine that there's any energy advantage to jellied fuels over woody plants for cooking purposes, I know that many third world areas have extreme shortages of cooking fuels or firewood, but it seems like that's a distribution problem, more than a real shortage. I know there's been a great deal of debate about the energy return of ethanol production here. But no matter what the numbers, it seems clear that when you don't need an energy dense liquid fuel for engines, the most efficient (and easily embraced) supply would involve fast growing woody plants. My impression is that burning biomass provided the best overall return of solar energy. Am I missing the UN's intention here?? Or is this another boondoggle? Taryn On Aug 9, 2005, at 9:13 AM, Jeffrey Tan wrote: HI there Pannirselvam, Interesting to note that jelly solid ethanol has the attention of the UN. Is there anywhere I can extract this literature? Thanks. Jeff MALAYSIA From: Pannirselvam P.V [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly and jellybiofuel Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 13:22:32 -0300 Hi D Giorchino The mess you have made can be a new dicovery of solid biofuel . jelly solid ethanol has good market as the future biofuel for rural areas as identified by UN. Try to acess about the possbility of mixing your mess with ethanol jelly fuel.Thus the big problem of disposing the mess can be an aportunity to make business. Fell free to have help from this list as all here very good experts Yours truely Pannirselvam P.V Federal university ,Natal.RN Brasil ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
First let me say that I believe that violence is almost never justified and that terrorism has never(?) served the political purposes it was intended for. I believe that terrorism is a crime, not an act of war. A heinous premeditated crime, but different only in scale from e.g. armed robbery and murder. I'd like to draw a different perspective on events like 9-11 and the London bombings. 2005, London, England: ~50 killed, ~700 injured http://news.google.com/news?q=london+bombing 2004, Madrid, Spain: ~200 killed, ~1500 injured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_bombing 2002, Kuta, Bali: ~200 killed, ~200 injured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_terrorist_bombing 2001, NY DC, USA: ~3000 killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11%2C_2001_attacks 2001-2004, 2nd Intifada ~1000 israelis killed, ~6700 injured http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada ~2400 Palestinians killed, ~22,000 injured. 2000-2005, A few hundred killed and many more injured, worldwide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#2000s Perhaps 7500 people killed by terrorist acts in the first five years of the 21 century. A substantial number, outrage is certainly justified. The governments of the world should be aggressively seeking justice for all these dead. Here's some other crimes that ought to receive proportional outrage: 2003-2005, Iraq ~1950 occupation forces killed, ~13,300 wounded http://icasualties.org ~23,000 Iraqi civilians killed, wounded unknown http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ 2002, USA (just 1 year) ~12,000 gun deaths. http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm ~43,000 auto deaths. http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/ ~158,000 lung cancer deaths http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr53/nvsr53_05acc.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_cancer I think that our administration and the american media don't have a good grasp of risk/reward and cost/benefit issues. Every 4 months, year in and year out, 3000 americans are shot to death, usually by americans, often with their own guns. That's a 9-11 disaster three times a year. Almost four times that number die on the roads, many of those deaths preventable by improved enforcement of existing laws. Using terrorism as justification, the Patriot Acts are shredding our constitutional protections. Using terrorism as justification, this administration has coerced our children into committing torture, kidnapping, and other war crimes. Using terrorism as justification, in 2006 the Federal government will spend more than $600 Billion, http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm about half of the federal budget, fighting terror, at home, in Afghanistan, and in Iraq. The numbers are so enormous that I can barely grasp them. If a billion is a thousand million (I think so) then we're spending $2000 each for every child, woman, and man in the country, to protect us from a threat that is vanishingly small compared to the real threats americans face. Our government budgets almost nothing for real security like education, child welfare, consumer safety, public health, gun safety, transportation safetythe list goes on. We'd all be a lot more secure if this country wasn't full of gun-totin', cigaret smokin', drunks in SUVs. All the evidence shows that occupying Iraq makes americans less secure. I can promise you that the american soldiers in Iraq would feel a lot safer in lower manhattan. It's a crime that we've been made to fear the unlikely, while blithely ignoring the obvious. Taryn ornae.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
