Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I recently saw an electric generator powered by a solar heated stirling engine. I have no idea what it cost. http://www.stirling-motor.com/S400.shtml ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Rolex Awards for Enterprise Pot-in-pot evaporative cooling Northern Nigeria is an impoverished region where people in rural communities eke out a living from subsistence farming. With no electricity, and therefore no refrigeration, perishable foods spoil within days. Such spoilage causes disease and loss of income for needy farmers, who are forced to sell their produce daily. Nigerian teacher Mohammed Bah Abba was motivated by his concern for the rural poor and by his interest in indigenous African technology to seek a practical, local solution to these problems. His extremely simple and inexpensive earthenware Pot-in-Pot cooling device is starting to revolutionise lives in this semi-desert area. The art of pottery is deeply rooted in African culture. In northern Nigeria, earthenware pots have been used since ancient times as cooking and water storage vessels, coffins, wardrobes and banks. Today, these clay pots are almost extinct, replaced by aluminium containers and more modern methods of burying the dead, storing clothes and saving money. Born into a family of earthen pot makers and raised in the rural north, Mohammed Bah Abba was from an early age familiar with the various practical and symbolic uses of traditional clay pots. As a child he learned the rudiments of pottery making and was struck by how the clay figures he moulded were water retentive and remained intact even when dry, unlike items made from other soils. Subsequently studying biology, chemistry and geology at school, Abba unravelled the technical puzzle that led him years later to create the Pot-in-Pot Preservation/Cooling System. The 36-year-old teacher has been selected as a Rolex Laureate for this ingenious technique that requires no external energy supply to preserve fruit, vegetables and other perishables in hot, arid climates. The Pot-in-Pot cooling system, a kind of desert refrigerator, helps subsistence farmers in northern Nigeria by reducing food spoilage and waste and thus increasing their income and limiting the health hazards of decaying foods. I invented the Pot-in-Pot system to help the development of the rural poor in a cost effective, participatory and sustainable way, says Abba. Semi-desert scrubland, subsistence farmers and lack of electricity To understand the relevance of Abba's Rolex Award-winning project, it is necessary to look at the geography of northern Nigeria and the restricted lives led by the people. This region is primarily a semi-desert scrubland inhabited by a large, mostly agriculture-based population, the majority of whom live in abject poverty. Polygamy is a dominant feature of the family structure, and women, living in purdah, are confined to their homes and seriously disadvantaged in terms of health care, education and employment opportunities. Young girls are particularly enslaved because they are forced to go out each day and quickly sell food that would otherwise perish, in order to add to the meagre family income. Fundamental to the Pot-in-Pot project is the lack of electricity in most of the northern rural communities, for without electricity there can be no refrigeration. Even in towns and cities the power supply is erratic, with some areas experiencing total blackouts for several weeks. Most of the urban poor cannot even afford refrigerators. In the context of an economically drained nation facing severe communication, transport and utility problems, Abba responded to his country's need for managers and set out to try and help improve the ailing economy. He began by studying management sciences at Ahmadu Bello University in the town of Zaria. Equipped with a Bachelor of Science degree in business administration, he became a lecturer at the College of Business and Management Studies at Jigawa State Polytechnic in Dutse in 1990, at the same time heading the college's Student Industrial Work Experience Scheme. When not teaching, Abba serves as a consultant to the regional United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in Jigawa, organising community activities and giving seminars. A staunch supporter of women's rights, he is also a consultant with the state's Ministry for Women Affairs and Social Mobilization. These consultancies have brought Abba in close contact with rural communities, where he has observed the extreme hardships suffered by subsistence farmers and their families. Through these observations, I became motivated to revitalise earthen pot usage and extend the life of perishable foods, he adds. Vegetables, fruit and drinks cooled by a simple evaporation process The innovative cooling system that Abba developed in 1995 consists of two earthenware pots of different diameters, one placed inside the other. The space between the two pots is filled with wet sand that is kept constantly moist, thereby keeping both pots damp. Fruit, vegetables and other items such as soft drinks are put in the
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
The Navaho made ice but the holes they opened to the night sky were entered by ladder. They were deep as I remember, more than 20 feet. I believe this solved the air warmth problem. Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi Joe and All ; Yes this is exactly right. Thank you. I did some searching. There are some web pages on this which I found. The problem with getting significant cooling using a normal solar panel is that normally a solar panel is designed to absorb the energy of the solar spectrum (lots of visible and UV, some IR). Then it must also be designed to prevent re-radiation of the IR due to black body. This is mostly accomplished by putting a piece of glass over the absorber. Glass traps the black body IR inside the panel (it also lowers conduction losses significantly). The absorber by itself is a good radiator, but a properly designed solar panel will trap the black body radiation being radiated from the absorber. So a good solar panel is generally a poor radiator. Kind of like a hot car in the summer sun with the windows closed. The web page I found said the guy had to remove the glass from a simple box collector to make ice. This then exposes the forming ice to the atmospere (and heat). The mans's conclusion was that you could make ice but only on a very cold (a few degrees above freezing)clear night and in still air . This makes sense. Ice formed inside the box collector even when water ouside did not freeze. So apparently there was some cooling going on. Possible that further research could provide materials which can pass IR and at the same time be a good insulator. In Kim's case using a parabolic reflector, the forming ice is in contact with the air. Objects at temperatures around freezing are not radiating much black body radiation. The cooling effect would be swamped by the conduction heat gain from the air. This arrangement could only support a few degrees temperature difference. Some more experiments with temperature tracking inside and outside the reflector, humidity, cloud cover, wind speed, would certainly be worthwhile. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ - Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Hi All, Check out ice caves on the web. There are many in the US and probably around the world. They are natural north facing holes with the correct angle and moisture conditions to have ice in them all year around. By adding a little intelligence to the design and proper doors that shut at the right times you could have your ownMaxwell's demon could work for a cool room, even in Texas. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Hi Joe and All ; Yes this is exactly right. Thank you. I did some searching. There are some web pages on this which I found. The problem with getting significant cooling using a normal solar panel is that normally a solar panel is designed to absorb the energy of the solar spectrum (lots of visible and UV, some IR). Then it must also be designed to prevent re-radiation of the IR due to black body. This is mostly accomplished by putting a piece of glass over the absorber. Glass traps the black body IR inside the panel (it also lowers conduction losses significantly). The absorber by itself is a good radiator, but a properly designed solar panel will trap the black body radiation being radiated from the absorber. So a good solar panel is generally a poor radiator. Kind of like a hot car in the summer sun with the windows closed. The web page I found said the guy had to remove the glass from a simple box collector to make ice. This then exposes the forming ice to the atmospere (and heat). The mans's conclusion was that you could make ice but only on a very cold (a few degrees above freezing)clear night and in still air . This makes sense. Ice formed inside the box collector even when water ouside did not freeze. So apparently there was some cooling going on. Possible that further research could provide materials which can pass IR and at the same time be a good insulator. In Kim's case using a parabolic reflector, the forming ice is in contact with the air. Objects at temperatures around freezing are not radiating much black body radiation. The cooling effect would be swamped by the conduction heat gain from the air. This arrangement could only support a few degrees temperature difference. Some more experiments with temperature tracking inside and outside the reflector, humidity, cloud cover, wind speed, would certainly be worthwhile. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Ken, Please read the following before continuing this thread. Our refrigeration has removed fermented food that are very good for us from most modern diets. The people that eat these fermented foods do not need our modern medicine, so which system is saving the lives? FERMENTED FRUITS AND VEGETABLES. A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE. http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e00.htm#con FERMENTED CEREALS. A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e00.htm#con Bright Blessings, Kim Hello Kim, Collecting and eating edible mushrooms is also a natural disease preventative. By the way, I have not missed a day of work due to illness in over thirty years and I work in a sea of germs all day in a dental office. I also do not take formal medications but I eat medicinal herbs, blue-green algae, vitamins, grow my own garden for about a dozen different veggies, and drink water from a deep, private well. Over the years, I've found that the people who worry most about their health are sometimes the sickliest. Also, I love my refrigerator. In the 1960's I lived in a rural village in Mexico for a year where I did not have a refrigerator and used a block of ice we fetched one day a week--until it melted. I had horrible stomach problems and threw away a great deal of food finally returning to the US when I went to 87 pounds. From my experience, I would want to have refrigeration as one of my priorities. Best wishes, Peggy At 12:38 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: If you want energy free threre's sun drying and brine, but I don't think I'd like a diet of jerky, salt port, pickles, saurkraut and pemican. Some technology and energy use is good. Refrigeration has prevented thousands of deaths by food borne pathogens. Ken - ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Hi, Interesting; another post said the Egyptians form ice at night, by ice forming do you mean the water froze into block of ice? I would guess that a bit of ice forming may suggest that it may be possible to transfer the heat in a cool room to the night time sky. Are there any practical example of this have been done or being done? The post mentioning the Egyptians on mentioned that they made ice by radiating heat to the night time sky, but there was indication how they went about it. Thanks Doug - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. : Greetings, : Actually I have put a bottle of water in my solar funnel cooker and left it : out at night when the temperature was in the 50F and had ice form. It will : only do it for me on a real clear night, it does not work on a cloudy night. : Bright Blessings, : Kim : : At 05:12 PM 9/15/2004, you wrote: : Hi, : : But, to create ice wouldn't that require the night time temperatures to : get to freezing? Even if the goal was to cool a heat sink, power is still : would be required. : Doug : : - Original Message - : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:47 AM : Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - : solar. : : : : : : : : : : : : Greetings to all. : : : : A new member here. : : : : If you have clear skies at night most of the time, solar panels can be : used in reverse to radiate heat all night long. Circulate anti freeze from : them : : to your block of ice during the night and use the ice in the usual way. : Not shure how much heat you can get rid of in this way. A calculation or : : experiment is in order. The panels could be used for heat gain during the : day in their usual way. Mount on top of your dirt mound for shade. : : : : : : ___ : : Biofuel mailing list : : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : : --- : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. : Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). : Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/06/2004 : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 09/17/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi Kim and Garth ; The idea is a good one, I really would like to help, and I don't want to appear to be negative, but this is a tall order. Let's see : a cooling system that is able to cool a root cellar to 40 degrees F, cheap, can be home built, easy to operate, uses no power, uses no chemicals, suitable for hot and humid climate with warm ground water and high water table. H. The laws of thermodynamics are well defined and unbreakable. I think I speak for many list member and say that we are very interested in your research. While there are many old and clever ideas which have been unfortunately forgotten, nothing that meets all your requirements exists now or has ever existed. I believe you will have to compromise on at least one of your requirements. First, you must superinsulate. Then, in consideration of your cooling requirements stated above and climate, you absolutely will need a power source to drive the cooling cycle. Power is expensive, so try to utilize some waste heat or solar. Start to think about what power is available. Exhaust gas heat from a generator would be really good. You said you were considering buying a generator. Solar is good. Waste heat from an alcohol still, biodiesel waste heat or glycerine, blacksmith, heat treating, pasteuring operation, canning operation, biodigester gas, waste heat from charcoal making, etc. Then you will need equipment which is designed to convert the waste heat to cooling. This will undoubtedly cost significant money and use chemicals. f you remember in my first post to you I stated that your biggest bang for the buck was a superinsulated area combined with a conventional (freon) air conditioner. Unfortunately, (and other list members may not agree), I continue to say that this is the best way to accomplish your goals of minimum cost, no chemicals, low temperatures, hot and humid climate, and easy construction. Continue to search, but start thinking about which requirement can be compromised. If none can be compromised, then there is no solution to your problem using currently existing or past technology. Sorry about that. Not trying to pick a fight. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Doug, I am searching for older methods, which include a trip to Galveston and its museums next week. I want a system that can be home built, be cheap enough to share with my financially handicapped neighbors and that is friendly to Mother Earth. Yes, there are many ready made solar ac/refrigeration systems out there, but they are not in the price range of the working poor who really need to be out from under the heavy electric bills. I will report back what I am able to find or design that will give me a cool storage facility and hopefully replace my electric gulping ac. Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:45 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: I'm sure they have material on modern methods Buck. However the thread has been how is was done before refrigeration was available. There may very will be some older printed material archived *somewhere* thus my comment it may take hours of research. I hoping Kim finds it and reports her discovery here, that's the only reason I open posts to this subject. Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi, Sounds great Kim. I wish you success and look forward to any reports you choose to make. Later... Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : Greetings Doug, : I am searching for older methods, which include a trip to Galveston and its : museums next week. I want a system that can be home built, be cheap enough : to share with my financially handicapped neighbors and that is friendly to : Mother Earth. Yes, there are many ready made solar ac/refrigeration : systems out there, but they are not in the price range of the working poor : who really need to be out from under the heavy electric bills. I will : report back what I am able to find or design that will give me a cool : storage facility and hopefully replace my electric gulping ac. : Bright Blessings, : Kim / --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 09/17/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
In old times in Iran, radiation from an enclosure to the night sky was used to accomplish local cooling to produce ice for special purposes, like the emperor's sherbets. An article in Scientific American years ago described this. This technique needs *dry* air which will not absorb infrared radiation and reradiate it. It cannot be used in humid climates. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Doug Younker wrote: Hi, But, to create ice wouldn't that require the night time temperatures to get to freezing? Even if the goal was to cool a heat sink, power is still would be required. Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. : : If you have clear skies at night most of the time, solar panels can be used in reverse to radiate heat all night long. Circulate anti freeze from them : to your block of ice during the night and use the ice in the usual way. Not shure how much heat you can get rid of in this way. A calculation or : experiment is in order. The panels could be used for heat gain during the day in their usual way. Mount on top of your dirt mound for shade. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I am searching for older methods, which include a trip to Galveston and its museums next week. I want a system that can be home built, be cheap enough to share with my financially handicapped neighbors and that is friendly to Mother Earth. Yes, there are many ready made solar ac/refrigeration systems out there, but they are not in the price range of the working poor who really need to be out from under the heavy electric bills. I will report back what I am able to find or design that will give me a cool storage facility and hopefully replace my electric gulping ac. Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:45 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: I'm sure they have material on modern methods Buck. However the thread has been how is was done before refrigeration was available. There may very will be some older printed material archived *somewhere* thus my comment it may take hours of research. I hoping Kim finds it and reports her discovery here, that's the only reason I open posts to this subject. Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
It is said that they don't have basements in Texas for two reasons. After a few feet of dirt, you ether hit rock or water - sometimes both. Greg H. - Original Message - From: mark manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:09 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Pardon my intrusion, but has anyone mentioned earthship construction? This, as you must know, is the burying and filling of recycled tires as the structural medium, which is then stucco'd within, and capped with cement? Works great in Ontario, where we have hills to burrow into. Maybe not so swell in Texas flatlands. Jesse From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:22:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Todd, Actually paper adobe stands up real well, especially if it is stuccoed. My humidity is worse in the winter, since that is when we get liquid sunshine. grin I am looking into rice husk ash as a way to make the paper adobe more fire proof and perhaps help it withstand the weather better. Bales must be paid for, hauled in by truck and are a 2 man job to stack. Paper adobe uses my heavy clay and waste paper of which lots is available locally. Paper adobe is a one man job, so I can work on it while my DH is at work. Also, the paper adobe is much lighter requiring a less substantial foundation for the building. Each climate has it's own demands, what works well in one place is not the correct solution for everywhere. If we search, we can find a solution that will work for our own climate that is good for Mother Earth as well, if we are lucky enough that the government does not interfere. By the way, I have left paper adobe out in the winter in the rain and had it survive with only about 20% disintegration, not bad for dirt and paper. The big problem with traditional construction is termites. Either I would have to put the building up on posts about 3 feet off the ground or do chemical termite treatments. It is very difficult to build up in the air and have the building with stand the storms we get. I am tearing down a traditional construction built this way due to storm damage. Winds of 100 mph gusting to 130 mph are not unusual here. The buildings wind up being so tall, since 10 foot ceilings are a real benefit with our heat, that it is scary working on the upper walls and roof. We do not use a work crew, I do most of the building myself. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:28 AM 9/14/2004, you wrote: Ya' know Kim, You could put the matter to test quite simply. Build a six bale yard bench and wait and see. Construction in winter might also address the humidity issue in the presence of open bales. If all else fails, there's still conventional thick-wall or dual-wallconstruction, high R insullation and radiant barriers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Doug, Actually, unless you are rich and can afford a large construction crew, your bales are going to get wet during construction, so knowing how they will react is important. A water proof covering that does not breath will rot bales faster than leaving them outside due to condensation. There is no way in an extremely humid climate to get real dry bales, they are going to have a fairly high humidity. Seal them in and let the weather happen, and temperature dropping 40degrees F in 10 minutes are not unusual as a blue northern blows in, and you have a major condensation problem in your wall. Considering that I have watched fire ants eat through concrete, I do not believe that it is possible to seal the critters out of any wall, eventually they will be in your bale wall. I make it a habit to test materials in the harshest kind of tests before I build with them. I want to know how much damage the weather can do to them. I have been hit once already by a tornado, winds of 130 mph have happened more than once. Buildings do get damaged in storms, it takes time to repair the damage, especially since the living must be cared for first. If the trees and plants need attention or if the shelters for the animals need attention, that must be done before the house. In an ideal world you may be able to keep your bales perfect, but I don't live there. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:24 PM 9/12/2004, you wrote: But straw bale building relies on the straw being encased in a water/vermin-proof wrap. Leaving a bale outside I think, is not a valid test. regards Doug
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
please share with us name and address of that ac group.Tks. Regards, F. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, I have just discovered that there is a group dedicated to solar ac and refrigeration on yahell. It is called solar ac and has about 2000 messages in its archives. I have only read the first 25, but it is definitely a hands on orientation. Just thought I would share. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I do now, since I am finally approved for membership. The archives are open to the public and the early messages were an archive of information that was on a bunch of different lists, so very interesting. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/ Bright Blessings, Kim Hi Kim Do you know the list url? Thanks Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Please read the following before continuing this thread. Our refrigeration has removed fermented food that are very good for us from most modern diets. The people that eat these fermented foods do not need our modern medicine, so which system is saving the lives? FERMENTED FRUITS AND VEGETABLES. A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE. http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e00.htm#con FERMENTED CEREALS. A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e00.htm#con Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:38 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: If you want energy free threre's sun drying and brine, but I don't think I'd like a diet of jerky, salt port, pickles, saurkraut and pemican. Some technology and energy use is good. Refrigeration has prevented thousands of deaths by food borne pathogens. Ken - ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I am leaning towards the Monolithic dome construction with the walls of the building underground. I was just at there headquarters in Italy Texas a few days ago finalizing prices on their ecoShells airforms and the Targee concrete mixer and pump. As I live in Austin and we are planning on building these in the Hill Country near Fredericksburg, our plan is to earth berm the sides to eliminate digging in to the rock. www.monolithic.com I remember they can cool one of these with a single RV type of Aircon and if it was partially underground and painted white, it would not gain much heat. Couple with some swamp cooler, you would have a pretty efficient house and not require a large amount of energy. Since this list is about BioFuel, I picked up 50 gallons of BioFuel this week in Dallas. I paid 2.80 per gallon and that is a little less than the 3.40/gall I pay here. My grease car kit should be in next week, and then I will have both of my rigs on SVO. Plan to make a video and website about the installation and experience. mel -Original Message- From: mark manchester [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Pardon my intrusion, but has anyone mentioned earthship construction? This, as you must know, is the burying and filling of recycled tires as the structural medium, which is then stucco'd within, and capped with cement? Works great in Ontario, where we have hills to burrow into. Maybe not so swell in Texas flatlands. Jesse From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:22:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Todd, Actually paper adobe stands up real well, especially if it is stuccoed. My humidity is worse in the winter, since that is when we get liquid sunshine. grin I am looking into rice husk ash as a way to make the paper adobe more fire proof and perhaps help it withstand the weather better. Bales must be paid for, hauled in by truck and are a 2 man job to stack. Paper adobe uses my heavy clay and waste paper of which lots is available locally. Paper adobe is a one man job, so I can work on it while my DH is at work. Also, the paper adobe is much lighter requiring a less substantial foundation for the building. Each climate has it's own demands, what works well in one place is not the correct solution for everywhere. If we search, we can find a solution that will work for our own climate that is good for Mother Earth as well, if we are lucky enough that the government does not interfere. By the way, I have left paper adobe out in the winter in the rain and had it survive with only about 20% disintegration, not bad for dirt and paper. The big problem with traditional construction is termites. Either I would have to put the building up on posts about 3 feet off the ground or do chemical termite treatments. It is very difficult to build up in the air and have the building with stand the storms we get. I am tearing down a traditional construction built this way due to storm damage. Winds of 100 mph gusting to 130 mph are not unusual here. The buildings wind up being so tall, since 10 foot ceilings are a real benefit with our heat, that it is scary working on the upper walls and roof. We do not use a work crew, I do most of the building myself. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:28 AM 9/14/2004, you wrote: Ya' know Kim, You could put the matter to test quite simply. Build a six bale yard bench and wait and see. Construction in winter might also address the humidity issue in the presence of open bales. If all else fails, there's still conventional thick-wall or dual-wallconstruction, high R insullation and radiant barriers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Doug, Actually, unless you are rich and can afford a large construction crew, your bales are going to get wet during construction, so knowing how they will react is important. A water proof covering that does not breath will rot bales faster than leaving them outside due to condensation. There is no way in an extremely humid climate to get real dry bales, they are going to have a fairly high humidity. Seal them in and let the weather happen, and temperature dropping 40degrees F in 10 minutes are not unusual as a blue northern blows in, and you have a major condensation problem in your wall. Considering that I have watched fire ants eat through concrete, I do not believe that it is possible to seal the critters out of any wall, eventually they will be in your
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
The home page link is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/ --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I have just discovered that there is a group dedicated to solar ac and refrigeration on yahell. It is called solar ac and has about 2000 messages in its archives. I have only read the first 25, but it is definitely a hands on orientation. Just thought I would share. Bright Blessings, Kim Hi Kim Do you know the list url? Thanks Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
DH means Dear Husband or Darling Husband and is quite a common usage of DH. You will also see DD for Darling Daughter or DS for Dear Son. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:14 PM 9/16/2004, you wrote: Hallo Kim, Wednesday, 15 September, 2004, 08:28:57, you wrote: KGT My DH will be on vacation next week, ...snip... I have seen the initials DH used on this and other lists. Around here calling someone a DH is not meant to be either flattering or endearing so I am guessing that it does not mean the same thing when used online. Would you please enlighten me? :o) Thank you kindly. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
--- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, I have just discovered that there is a group dedicated to solar ac and refrigeration on yahell. It is called solar ac and has about 2000 messages in its archives. I have only read the first 25, but it is definitely a hands on orientation. Just thought I would share. Bright Blessings, Kim Hi Kim Do you know the list url? I guess I'm not 100% sure this is what she's talking about, but a quick search turned up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solar-ac/ With 2139 messages total it's probably the one she means. They've been around since 2001 as far as I can see on Yahoo. So not super active, but looking through the archives a little it's interesting. I'll have to spend more time browsing through there. Erik ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Dear Hubby, Dear Heart, or designated hitter ... - Original Message - From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Hallo Kim, Wednesday, 15 September, 2004, 08:28:57, you wrote: KGT My DH will be on vacation next week, ...snip... I have seen the initials DH used on this and other lists. Around here calling someone a DH is not meant to be either flattering or endearing so I am guessing that it does not mean the same thing when used online. Would you please enlighten me? :o) Thank you kindly. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Actually I have put a bottle of water in my solar funnel cooker and left it out at night when the temperature was in the 50F and had ice form. It will only do it for me on a real clear night, it does not work on a cloudy night. Bright Blessings, Kim At 05:12 PM 9/15/2004, you wrote: Hi, But, to create ice wouldn't that require the night time temperatures to get to freezing? Even if the goal was to cool a heat sink, power is still would be required. Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. : : : : : Greetings to all. : : A new member here. : : If you have clear skies at night most of the time, solar panels can be used in reverse to radiate heat all night long. Circulate anti freeze from them : to your block of ice during the night and use the ice in the usual way. Not shure how much heat you can get rid of in this way. A calculation or : experiment is in order. The panels could be used for heat gain during the day in their usual way. Mount on top of your dirt mound for shade. : : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/06/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Actually, ice will from even if the ambient air temp is above freezing. How much above depends on humidity and other sources nearby of radiant heat transfer. RADIANT heat transfer, which is a different process than conductive or convective heat transfer. The ice forms because of radiant heat loss to the super cold reaches of space. The Egyptians knew this, and made ice this way. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Hi all, As I understand it, the nighttime sky looks like a 4 degree Kelvin source. (going from memory here) A well designed solar panel is insulated so that the ENERGY goes in and out only by RADIATION from the front and by CONDUCTION to the working fluid. ENERGY that leaves a black body (the solar panel) is balanced by the ENERGY coming to it when at equilibrium. If the panel was in outer space and not facing the sun it would cool down to 4 degrees above absolute zero when there was no heat input from the working fluid. Here on earth the atmosphere reflects heat energy radiated from the earth, back to the earth (the green house effect) so a perfect black body at night with a perfectly transparent window and perfect insulation would still not get down to 4 degrees K. But it will defiantly get well below freezing. In fact most solar panels need to be protected from freezing even in the summer.So it will make ice, the question is how much and is it worth the investment. If solar heat is needed during the day, then this would be an added use for the collectors. Air could be the working fluid and the thermal mass of the cool room could be the storage medium (instead of ice) then the system gets simpler. Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] net cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. biofuel-bounces@ wwia.org 09/15/2004 03:12 PM Please respond to biofuel Hi, But, to create ice wouldn't that require the night time temperatures to get to freezing? Even if the goal was to cool a heat sink, power is still would be required. Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. : : : : : Greetings to all. : : A new member here. : : If you have clear skies at night most of the time, solar panels can be used in reverse to radiate heat all night long. Circulate anti freeze from them : to your block of ice during the night and use the ice in the usual way. Not shure how much heat you can get rid of in this way. A calculation or : experiment is in order. The panels could be used for heat gain during the day in their usual way. Mount on top of your dirt mound for shade. : : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/06/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Folks, For Texas, a good starting point would be here: http://county-tx.tamu.edu/ This lists all of the county extension offices in Texas. The Home Page is here: http://texasextension.tamu.edu/ I have worked a lot with extension offices in the past. Many times you will get a person that is new to the field and can't personally help that much. What you do then is get phone numbers and email addresses of experts in the field from the extension office. Also, many times you can work the system and get info from extension offices from other states. I had whopper long distance phone bills back in the 1970's talking to a Cauliflower breeder in Michigan and a Spanish Onion storage expert in Oregon. But it was all fun. The Profs from these and other universities mailed me pamplets of diagrams, data, and text that kept me up late at night reading, while gale force winds blew outside my house with temps that would make a Polar bear shiver. Ron B. == hik doug, she may be able to fidnd some thnisngs from the county agent or the aggies archives, dept of agriculture, they usually have many way s to conserveee foods, From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:37:11 -0500 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
If you want energy free threre's sun drying and brine, but I don't think I'd like a diet of jerky, salt port, pickles, saurkraut and pemican. Some technology and energy use is good. Refrigeration has prevented thousands of deaths by food borne pathogens. Ken --- Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:41 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I'm sure they have material on modern methods Buck. However the thread has been how is was done before refrigeration was available. There may very will be some older printed material archived *somewhere* thus my comment it may take hours of research. I hoping Kim finds it and reports her discovery here, that's the only reason I open posts to this subject. Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Buck Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : hik doug, she may be able to fidnd some thnisngs from the county agent : or the aggies archives, dept of agriculture, they usually have many way s to : conserveee foods, --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
True, marble only feels cooler because it conducts heat away from your body faster than other materials. Ken --- Michael Lagae [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Capra, Your suggestions about finding the free stone is a good one, I'll have to remember that. However, the statement that marble is 15 degrees cooler than the surroundings is false. Just measure the temps of various items in your bathroom (at the same height since warm air rises) and you'll see that the marble floor is not any colder than the rest of the room. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/893033758.Ot.r.html -michael On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:36:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Kim, The solution could be wrapping your storage area in marble. Marble has a curious property--it stays 15 degrees cooler than the surroundings. Not so good for a bathroom floor, as I have discovered. But a great idea for storing foods that need to be cold. While marble may sound expensive, depending where you live, you can pick up a whole bunch absolutely for free. I fulfill all my slab marble and granite needs by visiting the dumpsters of local tile and granite shops. These shops throw away many tons of stone every week! I personally have more than I can use, and nearly killed my rabbit hauling so much stone my shocks were fully compressed. You can even develop a relationship with the workers to have them save aside choice chunks for you before they get thrown in and buried, or broken. Then if you still had to chill it some, at least your refrigeration would be working less of the time. Capra Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate@#$
Hi, Buck using the info you provided google lead me to http://www.villageearth.org/pages/AT_Library/atsourcebook/chapters/solar.htm , while the page looks promising for a lot of info, the technical report 23-533 may be the project I'm recalling. I wished there was a Stateside source for it, only if I could remember the name of that magazine. An inquiry to Rodale Press resulted in a response from them, but not info I was looking for. Thanks Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Buck Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 12:24 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot [EMAIL PROTECTED] : : hi doug, was it passive solarr enerby by edward mazria,, mf-23-544, i found : lotss or freferrences to this one,, buck : : From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 02:02:19 -0500 : : Hi, : : I just recalled an article that was in a Rodale Press monthly : publication that was a passive refrigerator, ice box to be accurate, : project. As I recall it had a refrigerant loop with the condenser outside : the building under the shaded eaves of theroof and the evaporator an : insulated box with water in a partition. I believe over time the passive : unit was supposed to freeze the water into ice. Problem is I can't : remember : the name of the magazine to even begin a search. : Doug : : : --- : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. : Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). : Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : _ : Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! : http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I have just discovered that there is a group dedicated to solar ac and refrigeration on yahell. It is called solar ac and has about 2000 messages in its archives. I have only read the first 25, but it is definitely a hands on orientation. Just thought I would share. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I have just discovered that there is a group dedicated to solar ac and refrigeration on yahell. It is called solar ac and has about 2000 messages in its archives. I have only read the first 25, but it is definitely a hands on orientation. Just thought I would share. Bright Blessings, Kim Hi Kim Do you know the list url? Thanks Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Pardon my intrusion, but has anyone mentioned earthship construction? This, as you must know, is the burying and filling of recycled tires as the structural medium, which is then stucco'd within, and capped with cement? Works great in Ontario, where we have hills to burrow into. Maybe not so swell in Texas flatlands. Jesse From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:22:54 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Todd, Actually paper adobe stands up real well, especially if it is stuccoed. My humidity is worse in the winter, since that is when we get liquid sunshine. grin I am looking into rice husk ash as a way to make the paper adobe more fire proof and perhaps help it withstand the weather better. Bales must be paid for, hauled in by truck and are a 2 man job to stack. Paper adobe uses my heavy clay and waste paper of which lots is available locally. Paper adobe is a one man job, so I can work on it while my DH is at work. Also, the paper adobe is much lighter requiring a less substantial foundation for the building. Each climate has it's own demands, what works well in one place is not the correct solution for everywhere. If we search, we can find a solution that will work for our own climate that is good for Mother Earth as well, if we are lucky enough that the government does not interfere. By the way, I have left paper adobe out in the winter in the rain and had it survive with only about 20% disintegration, not bad for dirt and paper. The big problem with traditional construction is termites. Either I would have to put the building up on posts about 3 feet off the ground or do chemical termite treatments. It is very difficult to build up in the air and have the building with stand the storms we get. I am tearing down a traditional construction built this way due to storm damage. Winds of 100 mph gusting to 130 mph are not unusual here. The buildings wind up being so tall, since 10 foot ceilings are a real benefit with our heat, that it is scary working on the upper walls and roof. We do not use a work crew, I do most of the building myself. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:28 AM 9/14/2004, you wrote: Ya' know Kim, You could put the matter to test quite simply. Build a six bale yard bench and wait and see. Construction in winter might also address the humidity issue in the presence of open bales. If all else fails, there's still conventional thick-wall or dual-wallconstruction, high R insullation and radiant barriers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Doug, Actually, unless you are rich and can afford a large construction crew, your bales are going to get wet during construction, so knowing how they will react is important. A water proof covering that does not breath will rot bales faster than leaving them outside due to condensation. There is no way in an extremely humid climate to get real dry bales, they are going to have a fairly high humidity. Seal them in and let the weather happen, and temperature dropping 40degrees F in 10 minutes are not unusual as a blue northern blows in, and you have a major condensation problem in your wall. Considering that I have watched fire ants eat through concrete, I do not believe that it is possible to seal the critters out of any wall, eventually they will be in your bale wall. I make it a habit to test materials in the harshest kind of tests before I build with them. I want to know how much damage the weather can do to them. I have been hit once already by a tornado, winds of 130 mph have happened more than once. Buildings do get damaged in storms, it takes time to repair the damage, especially since the living must be cared for first. If the trees and plants need attention or if the shelters for the animals need attention, that must be done before the house. In an ideal world you may be able to keep your bales perfect, but I don't live there. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:24 PM 9/12/2004, you wrote: But straw bale building relies on the straw being encased in a water/vermin-proof wrap. Leaving a bale outside I think, is not a valid test. regards Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever
Re[2]: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hallo Kim, Wednesday, 15 September, 2004, 08:28:57, you wrote: KGT My DH will be on vacation next week, ...snip... I have seen the initials DH used on this and other lists. Around here calling someone a DH is not meant to be either flattering or endearing so I am guessing that it does not mean the same thing when used online. Would you please enlighten me? :o) Thank you kindly. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
or the aggies archives, dept of agriculture, they usually have many way s to conserveee foods, From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:37:11 -0500 Hi, Keith thanks for the reminder of an excellent resource. From Kim's posts it seems the conditions in that part of Texas may not allow for many of those idea be put to use. Too bad foxfire like projects didn't occur in all regions of the U. S. to preserve the history of the old ways, that way information pertinent to Kim's location would be available. I'm sure it's available but it may take hours of research to find it in libraries and such. Doug - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : Hi Doug, Kim and all : (Ahem...) : : http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#handyfarm : Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever : : Handy Farm Devices and How to Make Them by Rolfe Cobleigh, Orange : Judd Company, 1910 : Not just nostalgia -- Cobleigh's devices and techniques were good : answers to common farm problems and they're just as functional and : useful now as they were then. Make your own workshop tools, a simple : fence post and stump-puller, fences and gates that don't sag, : building a farmhouse, barns and outbuildings, a bicycle-powered : washing machine, a dog-powered pump, a lightweight orchard ladder, a : portable chicken coop, a stone boat (for moving stone) and much more. : Cobleigh's out to save you time and money -- a treasure for small : farmers or homesteaders and anyone wanting to be more : self-sufficient. Illustrated, good old-style writing, punctuated with : quotes from Shakespeare or a local farmer, whichever's apt. Workshop : and Tools, The Steel Square, In and Around the House, Barns and : Stock, Poultry and Bees, Garden and Orchard, Field and Wood, Gates : and Doors, When We Build, Worth Knowing. Full text online. With : thanks to Kirk McLoren. : : http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/device/devicesToC.html : Handy Farm Devices - Cobleigh - ToC snipped : : Keith : : : - Original Message - : From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM : Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : : : : I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does : : not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I : : need to find out is how. : : Bright Blessings, : : Kim : : : : --- : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. : Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). : Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _ Donât just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate@#$
hi doug, was it passive solarr enerby by edward mazria,, mf-23-544, i found lotss or freferrences to this one,, buck From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 02:02:19 -0500 Hi, I just recalled an article that was in a Rodale Press monthly publication that was a passive refrigerator, ice box to be accurate, project. As I recall it had a refrigerant loop with the condenser outside the building under the shaded eaves of theroof and the evaporator an insulated box with water in a partition. I believe over time the passive unit was supposed to freeze the water into ice. Problem is I can't remember the name of the magazine to even begin a search. Doug --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _ Donât just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Actually paper adobe stands up real well, especially if it is stuccoed. My humidity is worse in the winter, since that is when we get liquid sunshine. grin I am looking into rice husk ash as a way to make the paper adobe more fire proof and perhaps help it withstand the weather better. Bales must be paid for, hauled in by truck and are a 2 man job to stack. Paper adobe uses my heavy clay and waste paper of which lots is available locally. Paper adobe is a one man job, so I can work on it while my DH is at work. Also, the paper adobe is much lighter requiring a less substantial foundation for the building. Each climate has it's own demands, what works well in one place is not the correct solution for everywhere. If we search, we can find a solution that will work for our own climate that is good for Mother Earth as well, if we are lucky enough that the government does not interfere. By the way, I have left paper adobe out in the winter in the rain and had it survive with only about 20% disintegration, not bad for dirt and paper. The big problem with traditional construction is termites. Either I would have to put the building up on posts about 3 feet off the ground or do chemical termite treatments. It is very difficult to build up in the air and have the building with stand the storms we get. I am tearing down a traditional construction built this way due to storm damage. Winds of 100 mph gusting to 130 mph are not unusual here. The buildings wind up being so tall, since 10 foot ceilings are a real benefit with our heat, that it is scary working on the upper walls and roof. We do not use a work crew, I do most of the building myself. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:28 AM 9/14/2004, you wrote: Ya' know Kim, You could put the matter to test quite simply. Build a six bale yard bench and wait and see. Construction in winter might also address the humidity issue in the presence of open bales. If all else fails, there's still conventional thick-wall or dual-wallconstruction, high R insullation and radiant barriers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Doug, Actually, unless you are rich and can afford a large construction crew, your bales are going to get wet during construction, so knowing how they will react is important. A water proof covering that does not breath will rot bales faster than leaving them outside due to condensation. There is no way in an extremely humid climate to get real dry bales, they are going to have a fairly high humidity. Seal them in and let the weather happen, and temperature dropping 40degrees F in 10 minutes are not unusual as a blue northern blows in, and you have a major condensation problem in your wall. Considering that I have watched fire ants eat through concrete, I do not believe that it is possible to seal the critters out of any wall, eventually they will be in your bale wall. I make it a habit to test materials in the harshest kind of tests before I build with them. I want to know how much damage the weather can do to them. I have been hit once already by a tornado, winds of 130 mph have happened more than once. Buildings do get damaged in storms, it takes time to repair the damage, especially since the living must be cared for first. If the trees and plants need attention or if the shelters for the animals need attention, that must be done before the house. In an ideal world you may be able to keep your bales perfect, but I don't live there. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:24 PM 9/12/2004, you wrote: But straw bale building relies on the straw being encased in a water/vermin-proof wrap. Leaving a bale outside I think, is not a valid test. regards Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
do. My DH will be on vacation next week, so I should have time to look at it since I will have help on the farm. Thanks for the link to the modern version. Yes, I do raise rabbits. I am curious, why do you ask? I also have chickens, pigs, goats, sheep beef and milk cows and gardens. Bright Blessings, Kim At 07:52 AM 9/14/2004, you wrote: In all honesty, if you think that the Icy Ball Idea is your best bet, go with the updated ( modern ) version: http://www.homepower.com/files/solarice.pdf The only chemicals it uses are naturally occurring ( granted purified ) Ammonia and Calcium Chloride. The only difference between the Icy Ball and the Solar Icemaker, is that the Icy Ball uses water* to attract the ammonia and the Solar Icemaker uses a common salt.( I would bet that the salt licks that you put out for your animals have some calcium chloride in them ). * The problem with using water to attract the ammonia, is that when it is heated, to drive off the ammonia, some of the water goes with it. In time you will lose efficacy as the ammonia that is in the cooling chamber stays there because of the water that collected there and then you will have to drain all the water back into the water chamber.By using a solid salt, this can't happen. By the way, do you raise rabbits? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 13:54 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, To everyone who participated on this thread, many thanks are in order. I will now go back to lurking while I do my homework on these different ideas. What has my mind going in high gear is wondering if an icy ball will work with a solar funnel cooker for a heat source. This looks at first glance to be not just an answer to our root cellar problems, but a good source of AC for our area. If it does work for us, a retirement income building and installing them for our neighbors, since we live in a no code area. Many of our old folk do not eat well in the summer due to high electric bills for AC. Garth and I will be looking into to this very seriously. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Hi, But, to create ice wouldn't that require the night time temperatures to get to freezing? Even if the goal was to cool a heat sink, power is still would be required. Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. : : : : : Greetings to all. : : A new member here. : : If you have clear skies at night most of the time, solar panels can be used in reverse to radiate heat all night long. Circulate anti freeze from them : to your block of ice during the night and use the ice in the usual way. Not shure how much heat you can get rid of in this way. A calculation or : experiment is in order. The panels could be used for heat gain during the day in their usual way. Mount on top of your dirt mound for shade. : : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/06/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi, Keith thanks for the reminder of an excellent resource. From Kim's posts it seems the conditions in that part of Texas may not allow for many of those idea be put to use. Too bad foxfire like projects didn't occur in all regions of the U. S. to preserve the history of the old ways, that way information pertinent to Kim's location would be available. I'm sure it's available but it may take hours of research to find it in libraries and such. Doug - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : Hi Doug, Kim and all : (Ahem...) : : http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#handyfarm : Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever : : Handy Farm Devices and How to Make Them by Rolfe Cobleigh, Orange : Judd Company, 1910 : Not just nostalgia -- Cobleigh's devices and techniques were good : answers to common farm problems and they're just as functional and : useful now as they were then. Make your own workshop tools, a simple : fence post and stump-puller, fences and gates that don't sag, : building a farmhouse, barns and outbuildings, a bicycle-powered : washing machine, a dog-powered pump, a lightweight orchard ladder, a : portable chicken coop, a stone boat (for moving stone) and much more. : Cobleigh's out to save you time and money -- a treasure for small : farmers or homesteaders and anyone wanting to be more : self-sufficient. Illustrated, good old-style writing, punctuated with : quotes from Shakespeare or a local farmer, whichever's apt. Workshop : and Tools, The Steel Square, In and Around the House, Barns and : Stock, Poultry and Bees, Garden and Orchard, Field and Wood, Gates : and Doors, When We Build, Worth Knowing. Full text online. With : thanks to Kirk McLoren. : : http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/device/devicesToC.html : Handy Farm Devices - Cobleigh - ToC snipped : : Keith : : : - Original Message - : From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM : Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : : : : I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does : : not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I : : need to find out is how. : : Bright Blessings, : : Kim : : : : --- : Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. : Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). : Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ : : ___ : Biofuel mailing list : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel : : Biofuel at Journey to Forever: : http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html : : Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): : http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi, I just recalled an article that was in a Rodale Press monthly publication that was a passive refrigerator, ice box to be accurate, project. As I recall it had a refrigerant loop with the condenser outside the building under the shaded eaves of theroof and the evaporator an insulated box with water in a partition. I believe over time the passive unit was supposed to freeze the water into ice. Problem is I can't remember the name of the magazine to even begin a search. Doug --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Kim Garth Travis wrote: Greetings, snip What has my mind going in high gear is wondering if an icy ball will work with a solar funnel cooker for a heat source. This looks at first glance snip Hi again, The concentrator would be a good idea. This should raise efficiency of the cooling system considerably. As it is stated in http://www.eduvinet.de/servitec/henninge.pdf, the cooler efficiency (COP) is HIGHLY sensitive to the solar radiation concentration (see nice graphs in 6,7,8,9 pages). Hence solar concentrator, which raises energy flux well above 1000W/m^2, should have very positive effect. -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Ya' know Kim, You could put the matter to test quite simply. Build a six bale yard bench and wait and see. Construction in winter might also address the humidity issue in the presence of open bales. If all else fails, there's still conventional thick-wall or dual-wallconstruction, high R insullation and radiant barriers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings Doug, Actually, unless you are rich and can afford a large construction crew, your bales are going to get wet during construction, so knowing how they will react is important. A water proof covering that does not breath will rot bales faster than leaving them outside due to condensation. There is no way in an extremely humid climate to get real dry bales, they are going to have a fairly high humidity. Seal them in and let the weather happen, and temperature dropping 40degrees F in 10 minutes are not unusual as a blue northern blows in, and you have a major condensation problem in your wall. Considering that I have watched fire ants eat through concrete, I do not believe that it is possible to seal the critters out of any wall, eventually they will be in your bale wall. I make it a habit to test materials in the harshest kind of tests before I build with them. I want to know how much damage the weather can do to them. I have been hit once already by a tornado, winds of 130 mph have happened more than once. Buildings do get damaged in storms, it takes time to repair the damage, especially since the living must be cared for first. If the trees and plants need attention or if the shelters for the animals need attention, that must be done before the house. In an ideal world you may be able to keep your bales perfect, but I don't live there. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:24 PM 9/12/2004, you wrote: But straw bale building relies on the straw being encased in a water/vermin-proof wrap. Leaving a bale outside I think, is not a valid test. regards Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
In all honesty, if you think that the Icy Ball Idea is your best bet, go with the updated ( modern ) version: http://www.homepower.com/files/solarice.pdf The only chemicals it uses are naturally occurring ( granted purified ) Ammonia and Calcium Chloride. The only difference between the Icy Ball and the Solar Icemaker, is that the Icy Ball uses water* to attract the ammonia and the Solar Icemaker uses a common salt.( I would bet that the salt licks that you put out for your animals have some calcium chloride in them ). * The problem with using water to attract the ammonia, is that when it is heated, to drive off the ammonia, some of the water goes with it. In time you will lose efficacy as the ammonia that is in the cooling chamber stays there because of the water that collected there and then you will have to drain all the water back into the water chamber.By using a solid salt, this can't happen. By the way, do you raise rabbits? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 13:54 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, To everyone who participated on this thread, many thanks are in order. I will now go back to lurking while I do my homework on these different ideas. What has my mind going in high gear is wondering if an icy ball will work with a solar funnel cooker for a heat source. This looks at first glance to be not just an answer to our root cellar problems, but a good source of AC for our area. If it does work for us, a retirement income building and installing them for our neighbors, since we live in a no code area. Many of our old folk do not eat well in the summer due to high electric bills for AC. Garth and I will be looking into to this very seriously. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Greetings to all. A new member here. If you have clear skies at night most of the time, solar panels can be used in reverse to radiate heat all night long. Circulate anti freeze from them to your block of ice during the night and use the ice in the usual way. Not shure how much heat you can get rid of in this way. A calculation or experiment is in order. The panels could be used for heat gain during the day in their usual way. Mount on top of your dirt mound for shade. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Yours is a bit more tricky, although you might have enough wind ( maybe water power? ) to do the job energy wise. I spent 18 months, just outside of Portland OR, and that was some of the weirdest weather I have ever seen. 3-4 months of total cloud cover, and 2-3 months nothing but sun, and everything else is some where in-between. I remember a trip through SeaTac airport. On the ground the visibility was 50ft. or less, OTOH 75-100 ft into the air, the visibility was over 2 miles. I would hazard a guess that the water table is high there as well, but, not near as warm ( probably allot cooler ), digging in a container of some sort and burying it would most likely work. Greg H. - Original Message - From: George Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 13:23 Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. I'm really enjoying this discussion on walkin cooler designs. I'm particularly intrigued by the solar cooler idea. I live in an area with poor solar gain, but the climate is temperate, so cooling needs are less drastic. I am needing to build a walk in cooler for my farm. I need the ability to store and cool dairy products safely and adequately. I also need locker cooling for aging meat carcasses, and also short term vegetable storage. Much of the year the demands on the system would be rather low. I live in the Pacific Northwest of the USA. Keep the ideas coming! George George Page www.seabreezefarm.net Vashon Island, WA USA ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Actually, unless you are rich and can afford a large construction crew, your bales are going to get wet during construction, so knowing how they will react is important. A water proof covering that does not breath will rot bales faster than leaving them outside due to condensation. There is no way in an extremely humid climate to get real dry bales, they are going to have a fairly high humidity. Seal them in and let the weather happen, and temperature dropping 40degrees F in 10 minutes are not unusual as a blue northern blows in, and you have a major condensation problem in your wall. Considering that I have watched fire ants eat through concrete, I do not believe that it is possible to seal the critters out of any wall, eventually they will be in your bale wall. I make it a habit to test materials in the harshest kind of tests before I build with them. I want to know how much damage the weather can do to them. I have been hit once already by a tornado, winds of 130 mph have happened more than once. Buildings do get damaged in storms, it takes time to repair the damage, especially since the living must be cared for first. If the trees and plants need attention or if the shelters for the animals need attention, that must be done before the house. In an ideal world you may be able to keep your bales perfect, but I don't live there. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:24 PM 9/12/2004, you wrote: But straw bale building relies on the straw being encased in a water/vermin-proof wrap. Leaving a bale outside I think, is not a valid test. regards Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
To everyone who participated on this thread, many thanks are in order. I will now go back to lurking while I do my homework on these different ideas. What has my mind going in high gear is wondering if an icy ball will work with a solar funnel cooker for a heat source. This looks at first glance to be not just an answer to our root cellar problems, but a good source of AC for our area. If it does work for us, a retirement income building and installing them for our neighbors, since we live in a no code area. Many of our old folk do not eat well in the summer due to high electric bills for AC. Garth and I will be looking into to this very seriously. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Ice Houses, canning, things like that, but, down were you live, it wasn't until the 1800's that they had a reliable way of preserving fresh food - it was an ammonia based refrigerator. I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim I was going to say, I bet they milked the cow everyday, made cheese, fed the leftover to other animals and collected the eggs ASAP to eat. ;) I have been considering the same thing as we decided our idea of a walk in cooler was too much energy to use, cool as it would be to have one at my house. We have a bit better climate (at least not in the summer) here in VA, so I have enjoyed the thread. Caroline ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi All, You might want to get a copy of Five Acres and Independence by M. G. Kains. It was written in the 1940's and is sort of considered the bible of small scale farming. My copy is packed away, but if I remember correctly (and I may not) it has info on building a root cellar and a ice house amongst other things. It has been reprinted many times and is still available for a reasonable price. Mickey Five acres and independence: a practical guide to the selection and management of the small farm by Maurice Grenville Kains, 1935, 1973, Dover Publications, ISBN 0486209741 Another great back-to-the-land classic on the basics of self-sufficient farming, covers all aspects of making a small acreage profitable and livable. First published in 1935, still in demand and still in print. Costing information and some other details are out of date now, but the principles remain intact -- eg, the chapter on Tried and True Ways to Fail. From Powell's Books: http://www.powells.com/biblio/46600-46800/0486209741.html From Lehman's Non-electric Catalog: http://www.lehmans.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prmenbr=12426 prrfnbr=14484FROM_CAT_REF=12822 Very nice book, Kains was a nice man. His other book, or one of them, Profitable Poultry Production by M. G. Kains, is in our online library, here: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ppp Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever On Sep 10, 2004, at 7:08 AM, Greg Harbican wrote: SNIP Ok. The only thing that comes close your situation that I think would work, is something I read a while back. A couple were in a similar situation ( only dryer ) and what they did, was, they found a large container ( in this case a old walk in freezer unit that didn't work any more ) and dug it in as far as they could. Then they mounded even more dirt on top ( made a small hill they did ).and made a double door entrance ( an airlock ) out of the sun. They also planted grass and bushes on the hill and trees directly to the east, south, and west, to shade the hill and for the cooling effect that the shade would give. In your case a solar cooling unit ( will actualy make ice if set up right ) would help allot. I have several in PDF format, and one in particular I think would work great for were you live. If you would like I could send a copy of it to you. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
This is what I would say is the best solar cooling / ice maker, I have seen in the longest time ( and I have seen allot of them ), in fact the copy I have, is the same one, and down in Texas, I think it would be the best bet. Add some thermal mass to keep it cool even when the clouds are heavy, and you would have your self a prime solar cooler.I have been thinking of modifying it for house AC ( but local code prohibits the use of anything with ammonia without it being installed by a licensed professional ) Greg H. - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 07:02 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar. www.homepower.com/files/solarice.pdf ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I do understand straw bale very well, did a course on it years ago now in Arizona with the Out on a bale, by mail people. Unfortunately, straw bale is not a good building material for my area. I would have to truck bales in from well over a 100 miles away. My humidity is over 80% most of the year. We tested a rice straw bale on the property, it disintegrated in a single season, just as if it were hay. We have many insects here that just eat it and I do not allow chemicals on the property. Straw bale is a wonderful building material if you live in the right climate. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:30 PM 9/11/2004, you wrote: Hiya Kim, (a variant of hello?) You might want to check into strawbaling the walls of any edifice you choose to build for your chill-room. As your water table is so high, I'm assuming you're not going subterranean, which would be a no-no with straw. BUT, if you're going to build above ground and use a non-water (or contained water) source to cool your veg, then it might work for you. btw: Raw wool is an excellent floor and ceiling insulator (stuffed between joists, then sealed in.) I've a strawbale bathhouse in the hills of northern california (limeplastering it in a few weeks!) When the weather outside is 100degF, inside the bathhouse it's always cool.. guesstimating 65/70 or so. I think it'd stay cooler yet if I'd keep from opening the windows during the day. Lovely stuff, straw! ...but you can't soak it or you'll get ookey black goo... Heidi ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi folks, i was browsing a little bit about absorption cooling. Found this cool document about cooling :) http://www.eduvinet.de/servitec/henninge.pdf Not too practical for direct application, but very good for the educational/theoretical purposes :) Appal Energy wrote: It's not glass, but it's gas absorption See http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html -- Tomas Juknevicius ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Caroline, Kim and others. Gas absorption is not very energy intense. If you look at the Servel fridges, they operate on a flame the size of a pilot light. In a super insulated walk-in freezer, solar collectors could readily take in enough heat in one day to keep a freezer iced for a week. The refrigerator section would just be blown air from the freezer. A minute amount of propane, natural gas or kerosene assist for the occassional full week of overcast. You can now get expanded foam made from soybean oil. It has a phenomenal insulation rating. Two inches of that on the inside and outside of straw bale and you've got an icehouse that hell itself couldn't melt. Here are a couple of sights for soy-based expanded foams with high r-values. http://www.emegabuild.com/product.html#emega2 http://www.unitedsoybean.org/newuses/stories_Soyoyl.html http://www.soyoyl.com/home/home.asp Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate At 12:08 AM 9/11/2004, you wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Ice Houses, canning, things like that, but, down were you live, it wasn't until the 1800's that they had a reliable way of preserving fresh food - it was an ammonia based refrigerator. I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim I was going to say, I bet they milked the cow everyday, made cheese, fed the leftover to other animals and collected the eggs ASAP to eat. ;) I have been considering the same thing as we decided our idea of a walk in cooler was too much energy to use, cool as it would be to have one at my house. We have a bit better climate (at least not in the summer) here in VA, so I have enjoyed the thread. Caroline ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hello Kim, - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I had earlier posted a link to an off grid refrigerator design based on a desiccant like zeolite and a parabolic solar reflector. Refer to the links for further info. http://www.eg-solar.de/english/products/products.htm http://www.zeo-tech.de/htm/e/e_solar1.htm Here I quote from the web page Development Aid Organization of the Public Community College of Alttting e.V. Refrigerating with the sun Reinhard Frank - Stephan Zech Under you can find a statement of the Forschungsstelle fr Energiewirtschaft (Research Department for Energy Commerce), which you can download there (only in German language). In this statement there's our adsorption-coolbox compared with a conventional photovotaik-compressor-coolbox. Refrigerator with a Solar Operating System Picture: Complete Refrigeration System In developing countries, there is an acute need for refrigerating foodstuffs and medicines. However, normal refrigerators familiar to us are luxury items for these countries. In order for them to work, they need electrical energy, often only available in large city centers, which are either difficult to access or simply impossible. However, the sun is shining everywhere and offers warmth in excess, especially in southern countries. With the assistance of a cooling aggregate and a parabolic solar collector, the warmth of the sun can be transformed into cold. In this particular form, the solar-powered refrigerator is a world's first and is being developed for production stage by EG Solar in association with the firm ZEO-TECH of Munich. The project was promoted by the Bavarian Ministry of Economic Affairs. The solar-powered refrigerator consists of a cooler box with a built-in evaporator and uses water as the cooling agent. In addition to this, all that is needed is a manually operated vacuum pump and one or more canisters containing the non-toxic mineral zeolite (a naturally occurring mineral) and an SK 14 parabolic dish. To produce the desired cooling effect, one of the zeolite containers is connected up to the evaporator. Air is extracted from the system with the aid of the vacuum pump. The vacuum created by the pump causes the boiling point of the water to drop so rapidly that the water boils at room-temperature. The energy needed to bring this about is drawn from the water itself, such that it cools to freezing point. The cooler box will then remain at a temperature from 0 to 6¡C for 72 hours. Once the zeolite (which has adsorbed the very high-energy steam) is saturated, the zeolite canister is disconnected from the evaporator and replaced by a canister of non-saturated regenerated zeolite. A few pumps to remove the air from the system once again and the refrigeration process continues. The saturated zeolite is then dried with the aid of the SK 14. And the mineral can be endlessly recycled in this way. The advantages of the solar-power refrigerator: cordless refrigeration (which means that the cooler box can also be used to transport medicines), the use of simple and non-toxic materials, and the possibility to produce a refrigerator locally and extremely easy, and for far less expenses than the conventional type. Physical-Chemical Description: Zeolite The solar refrigerator works on the basis of adsorbing water through zeolite. Zeolite is chemically similar to sand, however it is not made of compact molecules, but rather possesses a crystal structure with a very large interior surface. In nature, there are about 40 different types of zeolite. These mostly come from volcanic activity and contain large amounts of impurities, and are therefore inappropriate for technical cooling purposes. The chemical industry develops different types of zeolite artificially. The synthetic zeolite is mostly used as a phosphate substitute in washing detergent or for example, as a dry substance in double-paned glass windows. The application of large amounts of zeolite in washing detergent has led to countless studies concerning its environmental
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
I'm really enjoying this discussion on walkin cooler designs. I'm particularly intrigued by the solar cooler idea. I live in an area with poor solar gain, but the climate is temperate, so cooling needs are less drastic. I am needing to build a walk in cooler for my farm. I need the ability to store and cool dairy products safely and adequately. I also need locker cooling for aging meat carcasses, and also short term vegetable storage. Much of the year the demands on the system would be rather low. I live in the Pacific Northwest of the USA. Keep the ideas coming! George George Page www.seabreezefarm.net Vashon Island, WA USA This is what I would say is the best solar cooling / ice maker, I have seen in the longest time ( and I have seen allot of them ), in fact the copy I have, is the same one, and down in Texas, I think it would be the best bet. Add some thermal mass to keep it cool even when the clouds are heavy, and you would have your self a prime solar cooler.I have been thinking of modifying it for house AC ( but local code prohibits the use of anything with ammonia without it being installed by a licensed professional ) ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
But straw bale building relies on the straw being encased in a water/vermin-proof wrap. Leaving a bale outside I think, is not a valid test. regards Doug On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:30 pm, Kim Garth Travis wrote: Greetings Heidi, I do understand straw bale very well, did a course on it years ago now in Arizona with the Out on a bale, by mail people. Unfortunately, straw bale is not a good building material for my area. I would have to truck bales in from well over a 100 miles away. My humidity is over 80% most of the year. We tested a rice straw bale on the property, it disintegrated in a single season, just as if it were hay. We have many insects here that just eat it and I do not allow chemicals on the property. Straw bale is a wonderful building material if you live in the right climate. Bright Blessings, Kim At 04:30 PM 9/11/2004, you wrote: Hiya Kim, (a variant of hello?) You might want to check into strawbaling the walls of any edifice you choose to build for your chill-room. As your water table is so high, I'm assuming you're not going subterranean, which would be a no-no with straw. BUT, if you're going to build above ground and use a non-water (or contained water) source to cool your veg, then it might work for you. btw: Raw wool is an excellent floor and ceiling insulator (stuffed between joists, then sealed in.) I've a strawbale bathhouse in the hills of northern california (limeplastering it in a few weeks!) When the weather outside is 100degF, inside the bathhouse it's always cool.. guesstimating 65/70 or so. I think it'd stay cooler yet if I'd keep from opening the windows during the day. Lovely stuff, straw! ...but you can't soak it or you'll get ookey black goo... Heidi ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
There is a series of books called Fox Fire or Fire Fox that relates to how people lived in the Appalachian Mountains prior to modern conveniences. There were several ways for cooling. Blocks of ice were cut from ponds and heavily saw dusted and stored in sheds through most of summer. The saw dust is an insulator. Also, buildings were built over creeks with shelves used for cool storage. The books can give more detail. You also might try the magazine Mother Earth News. Hopefully this helps jcg -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:41 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:41 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? Hi Kim, In Dixie, food was typically preserved by canning, pickling, salt and/or nitrate curing, smoking, and also as sugared preserves, like jams and marmalades. Much else was consumed fresh, usually from local sources. Food choices were a seasonal kind of thing, with lots of vegetables and then fruit in spring, summer, and fall, mostly grains and meat in winter. Barnyard fowl would be eaten year-round from home stock, fish from local waters. Native Americans and African Americans used cucurbitacae and yams, which keep well in warm and humid climates. If you'd like a root cellar, the suggestions made are good. Insulate very well, use an absorption cooling system, power it with the sun or with an existing waste heat source or with biomass. Plant trees. Help drop that water table. I've had some really sweet summer afternoons in south Texas under big trees. Walk out into the sun and you'd feel like keeling over right away. andres ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
I have a link on my homesteading site (personal webpage) with info and plans to build a refrigeration unit without gas or electric, but it does require a heat source. The system was invented in the early 1800's, but not used until about or after the Civil War period. They didn't have gas or electric stoves back then. It's called the Icy Ball. There's good info and background history here on the process. And, one could incorporate a heating uiit into it. The guy uses a camp stove for the homemade unit. There are some other things that might interest you on my site as well. Demian http://www.knoton.com = This might sound crazy but I remember an episode of Ripley's Believe it or Not, (or some show like that) where they featured a solar refrigerator using some sort of glass ball set up (I don't know the physics involved). I wonder where you could find info like that? Original Message Follows From: Tim Castleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
It's not glass, but it's gas absorption See http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html - Original Message - From: Jeff Welter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate This might sound crazy but I remember an episode of Ripley's Believe it or Not, (or some show like that) where they featured a solar refrigerator using some sort of glass ball set up (I don't know the physics involved). I wonder where you could find info like that? Original Message Follows From: Tim Castleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. _ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Ice Houses, canning, things like that, but, down were you live, it wasn't until the 1800's that they had a reliable way of preserving fresh food - it was an ammonia based refrigerator. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 05:10 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi, I hope this don't come out the wrong way because I mean to try to help. Kim, I don't know where you need this cool storage, are you assuming there was cool storage before electrical power was available or do you have historical evidence of such cool storage? In the event that historical evidence exist hopefully history detailing how they did it also exists, but the devil is finding it. What I'm basically saying is if you have to go off grid your lifestyle will have to be of that of your area's before electrical power. That may mean you will not be able to do all you want to do, unless you employ other modern technology. GL Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does : not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I : need to find out is how. : Bright Blessings, : Kim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate - solar.
Hi Kim and Garth and All ;; They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. I think there were many ways of storing food before electricity, but only one involved the cold temperatures that you indicated : Ice storage. In other words, make lots of ice when the weather permitted, and store it under sawdust for when it is needed. As you know, other ways of storing food without refrigeration are drying, canning, salting, smoking, fermenting, etc. The fermented fish they eat over here stays (festers?) for months without refrigeration (but I won't go near it!). if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. Your idea is a good one. If I may recommend, please see a fascinating web site for a solar ice machine which uses not electricity at all : http://www.energy-concepts.com/isaac.html This one uses water/ammonia system, and needs a heat sink (they call it a thermosyphon) for correct operation. A heat sink is a body of water or a large radiator that can dissipate large amount of heat. The write up doesn't make a big thing about it, but it is necessary for correct operation. Check out the rest of the site for good info about absorbtion. It has been in use for about 100 years. Before that there was only one way to get cold temperatures : ice storage. About 5kg ice per m2 of collector area. 11 m2 system about $7,000. That's pretty good. For another clever system which doesn't need a heat sink, download the pdf file at : www.homepower.com/files/solarice.pdf Also, please search for ammonia ice solar. There is enough info to build your own system. Concentrated ammonia is highly toxic but biodegradable. With proper precautions, operator training, and correct maintenance, the system would be safe. Another interesting possibility is if you have a generator running already for electricity, then the heat of the exahaust gasses (which is waste heat right now) could be utilized to drive the absorbtion process per these links (or free ice!). The exhaut gasses are at least 250 degrees F. In that case no solar collectors would be needed. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
[snip] ... ... [snip] 3) What is the weather like around your house ( hot mild dry damp ect...)? Hot and humid, I am 125 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico in Texas. Summer highs can hit 117F, lots of rain, heavy down pours are common such as 18 inches in 24 hours. Double ouch! I know what you are talking about there, I spent about 5 years or so of my life in Austin, but, visited many places south of Austin quite often - Houston, San Antonio, Bay Town to name a few, too often to remember. Ok. The only thing that comes close your situation that I think would work, is something I read a while back. A couple were in a similar situation ( only dryer ) and what they did, was, they found a large container ( in this case a old walk in freezer unit that didn't work any more ) and dug it in as far as they could. Then they mounded even more dirt on top ( made a small hill they did ).and made a double door entrance ( an airlock ) out of the sun. They also planted grass and bushes on the hill and trees directly to the east, south, and west, to shade the hill and for the cooling effect that the shade would give. In your case a solar cooling unit ( will actualy make ice if set up right ) would help allot. I have several in PDF format, and one in particular I think would work great for were you live. If you would like I could send a copy of it to you. Greg H. Greg, Kim, You beat me to the punch on this one, when I heard high water table and cold water, this was my thoughts. Buy a 40' shipping container, mention that it will be for static use, not to be moved and you will get something cheaper, dig a big hole and dump it in it. With a high water table, you may need to get a big excavator, to dig the hole fast, and a big pump, to take care of the ground water, but once the hole is dug, dump the container into it and you have a cheap way of doing a cellar. Here in Australia, and probably other places as well, quite a few people use them as wine cellars - this was my reason for looking into it. Your mention of the hillock is important because if you don't add sufficient load, the container may float up out of the ground due to the high water table, hydrostatic thrust. Due to side wall friction, you would probably be safe by mounding what you dug out back on top, but I would probably recommend a nice 2m high hillock - in a past life I was a Civil Engineer :) All of the other things Greg mentioned, tree's shrubs etc are good as well. Good Luck, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi, I hope this don't come out the wrong way because I mean to try to help. Kim, I don't know where you need this cool storage, are you assuming there was cool storage before electrical power was available or do you have historical evidence of such cool storage? In the event that historical evidence exist hopefully history detailing how they did it also exists, but the devil is finding it. What I'm basically saying is if you have to go off grid your lifestyle will have to be of that of your area's before electrical power. That may mean you will not be able to do all you want to do, unless you employ other modern technology. GL Doug, N0LKK [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ahem...) http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#handyfarm Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever Handy Farm Devices and How to Make Them by Rolfe Cobleigh, Orange Judd Company, 1910 Not just nostalgia -- Cobleigh's devices and techniques were good answers to common farm problems and they're just as functional and useful now as they were then. Make your own workshop tools, a simple fence post and stump-puller, fences and gates that don't sag, building a farmhouse, barns and outbuildings, a bicycle-powered washing machine, a dog-powered pump, a lightweight orchard ladder, a portable chicken coop, a stone boat (for moving stone) and much more. Cobleigh's out to save you time and money -- a treasure for small farmers or homesteaders and anyone wanting to be more self-sufficient. Illustrated, good old-style writing, punctuated with quotes from Shakespeare or a local farmer, whichever's apt. Workshop and Tools, The Steel Square, In and Around the House, Barns and Stock, Poultry and Bees, Garden and Orchard, Field and Wood, Gates and Doors, When We Build, Worth Knowing. Full text online. With thanks to Kirk McLoren. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/device/devicesToC.html Handy Farm Devices - Cobleigh - ToC 9. When We Build The Farmer's Icehouse Location and Building Framing the Icehouse Ice and Milk Houses Combined Also: Homemade Water Cooler Keep Food Cool in Summer A Cooler Dummy An Outdoor Closet Homemade Refrigerator Iceless Butter and Milk Cooler Hot Water Making the Hotbed Making Permanent Hotbeds Heat for Hotbeds Cold Frames and Their Management Hot Water All Night Making a Frostproof Cellar A Summer Cool Room A Concrete Smokehouse Freezing Ice in Blocks Temporary Smoking Device And much besides. HTH. Keith - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate : I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does : not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I : need to find out is how. : Bright Blessings, : Kim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.754 / Virus Database: 504 - Release Date: 09/07/2004 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
You might want to get a copy of Five Acres and Independence by M. G. Kains. It was written in the 1940's and is sort of considered the bible of small scale farming. My copy is packed away, but if I remember correctly (and I may not) it has info on building a root cellar and a ice house amongst other things. It has been reprinted many times and is still available for a reasonable price. Mickey On Sep 10, 2004, at 7:08 AM, Greg Harbican wrote: SNIP Ok. The only thing that comes close your situation that I think would work, is something I read a while back. A couple were in a similar situation ( only dryer ) and what they did, was, they found a large container ( in this case a old walk in freezer unit that didn't work any more ) and dug it in as far as they could. Then they mounded even more dirt on top ( made a small hill they did ).and made a double door entrance ( an airlock ) out of the sun. They also planted grass and bushes on the hill and trees directly to the east, south, and west, to shade the hill and for the cooling effect that the shade would give. In your case a solar cooling unit ( will actualy make ice if set up right ) would help allot. I have several in PDF format, and one in particular I think would work great for were you live. If you would like I could send a copy of it to you. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
At 06:03 AM 9/10/2004, you wrote: Hallo Kim, I remember you live in Texas but I don't remember if you ever said where. The valley, hill country, east Texas? My father was from Harlingen and I lived in west Texas in San Angelo for a time. I am about 25 miles west of Huntsville, about 1 hour NNW of Houston. Back in the mid seventies Mother Earth News had an article about making an above ground root cellar. Super insulated including the door if I remember correctly. We are actually considering digging the pit for the cold storage, then building the house over it. If I put it in the middle of the house, and extend the house with porches [proper building for this climate] then hopefully I can achieve a dry cellar of some coolness. The roof of the cellar would need to be really well insulated from the house, but it would also give me somewhere to hide next time a tornado comes to visit.[the front ditch is NOT comfortable] You could try that. Set it up on blocks and frame it up and then put on the inner and outer walls with insulation. Haul in caliche and berm up around the thing after putting on a moisture-proof barrier. You would have to make sure the thing was extremely well insulated overhead and it would have to be pretty tight to keep from gaining heat inside. Can you get caliche where you are? We used it in west Texas to line ponds to hold water. I suppose if you had to you could run tile and rock underneath and build up a base which would be higher than the regular terrain and then build on top of that. Top it off with sheet metal roofing either white or silver to reflect the heat. Yes, I know caliche. We use it for road base. I have a metal roof now on my barn/house and we run a sprinkler system that comes on every 12 minutes for 22 seconds as a major part of our AC. I don't know if this would work or not but it may be worth a try. Good luck. I have a partner in Seguin who could have done it for you but he got a job as construction superintendent for Dillard's and goes all over the country working on their stores now. :o/ I do quite well doing my own construction work, with help around the edges from my dear Husband, when he gets a chance. Happy Happy, Gustl Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
vacation coming up so he will have time to look at it. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:24 PM 9/10/2004, you wrote: It's not glass, but it's gas absorption See http://www.ggw.org/~cac/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html - Original Message - From: Jeff Welter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate This might sound crazy but I remember an episode of Ripley's Believe it or Not, (or some show like that) where they featured a solar refrigerator using some sort of glass ball set up (I don't know the physics involved). I wonder where you could find info like that? Original Message Follows From: Tim Castleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. _ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
ago. My climate is much hotter and we do not freeze for long enough to create an ice block, even in the worst winter. I am south of the snow line. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:27 PM 9/10/2004, you wrote: There is a series of books called Fox Fire or Fire Fox that relates to how people lived in the Appalachian Mountains prior to modern conveniences. There were several ways for cooling. Blocks of ice were cut from ponds and heavily saw dusted and stored in sheds through most of summer. The saw dust is an insulator. Also, buildings were built over creeks with shelves used for cool storage. The books can give more detail. You also might try the magazine Mother Earth News. Hopefully this helps jcg -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:41 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi, An example of why cool room storage may not be possible in a hot climate. One has to live in a climate that has winter temperatures to create ice for it to be harvested and stored. Even in Kansas we have winters where it isn't cold enough for enough consecutive days to great quality ice in any substantial amounts. The foxfire series is a worthy addition to one's home library. Doug - Original Message - From: John Gardner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:27 PM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate There is a series of books called Fox Fire or Fire Fox that relates to how people lived in the Appalachian Mountains prior to modern conveniences. There were several ways for cooling. Blocks of ice were cut from ponds and heavily saw dusted and stored in sheds through most of summer. The saw dust is an insulator. Also, buildings were built over creeks with shelves used for cool storage. The books can give more detail. You also might try the magazine Mother Earth News. Hopefully this helps jcg -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 6:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate I have, but if possible I would like to build a natural system that does not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:41 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hiya Kim, (a variant of hello?) You might want to check into strawbaling the walls of any edifice you choose to build for your chill-room. As your water table is so high, I'm assuming you're not going subterranean, which would be a no-no with straw. BUT, if you're going to build above ground and use a non-water (or contained water) source to cool your veg, then it might work for you. btw: Raw wool is an excellent floor and ceiling insulator (stuffed between joists, then sealed in.) I've a strawbale bathhouse in the hills of northern california (limeplastering it in a few weeks!) When the weather outside is 100degF, inside the bathhouse it's always cool.. guesstimating 65/70 or so. I think it'd stay cooler yet if I'd keep from opening the windows during the day. Lovely stuff, straw! ...but you can't soak it or you'll get ookey black goo... Heidi ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi Kim, Garth, and All ; Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? (I didn't say hello). Cooling in general terms is energy intensive. This is a result of the Laws of Thermodynamics. Heat likes to travel from the hot to the cold. To get it to go the other way, which is what you are doing when you cool something below ambient, requires energy input. Unfortunately there is no way around this. I'll try to list some options that you could explore. This list may not be complete. Other members may have other better ideas. Basically you should super-insulate, utilize cold storage from the environment where possible, and produce your own cooling when necessary. This last item is always energy intensive. Utilizing a waste heat source could provide the needed energy to drive the coolig cycle. First, the most important thing to consider is to construct a storage area which is super-insulated. If you could reduce the heat gain to your storage area to zero, theoretically it would stay at any temperature (like 40 degrees) without any additional energy inputs for cooling (after the contents have stabilized at the desired temperature). Super insulation around the outside (R40 or better), double air lock doors, air tight construction, infrequent access, electronic ballast flourescent lighing. It could stay at 40 degrees with only a very small refrigeration system to cool it. Next you can try to use the environment surrounding your house to help with the cooling. It sounds like you have considered that already. Shade trees reduce the heat gain from the sun. Evaporative cooling could be used if the climate is relatively dry. You say your climate is hot and humid. Evaporative cooling doesn't work well in humid climates (it won't work at all at 100% humidity). You could de-humidify the air first, which can be done successfully, but it does require another energy input. Even then, evaporative cooling would not be able to get down to 40 degrees. Are there any times during the year when it is cool or cold? Are there any bodies of water (pond) nearby? It is possible to use heat pumps to store thermal energy (or cold) in underground water or ponds. These also require energy inputs. There are new thermoelectric coolers which have no moving parts, but they are terribly inefficient, providing cooling at only 10% of energy input. They require DC electrical input, from a pv solar array for example. They are quite expensive. Are there any processes in you house that produce significant waste heat? Waste heat can be utilized to power a lithium bromide absorbtion chiller. This is similar to the gas fired refrigirators that you can get for mobile homes, etc. In a normal compression cycle chiller, electricity provides the energy input. In an absorbtion chiller, heat is utilized as the energy input to drive the cooling cycle. These are not cheap. Theoretically you could use solar hot water to power an absorbtion chiller, but you will require large collector areas to provide the needed energy inputs due to the diffuse nature of solar energy. To keep efficiencies high you should consider tracking parabolic concentrators with evacuated tube collectors. This would perform well but needs clear skys and direct sunlight. This is clearly a significant project. You biggest bang for the buck is a super-insulated storage area, combined with a small conventional (freon) cooling system to get the temperature down to 40 degrees. A HVAC (heating ventillation air conditioning) company should be able to evalute your situation. Hope this gives you some ideas. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Not, (or some show like that) where they featured a solar refrigerator using some sort of glass ball set up (I don't know the physics involved). I wonder where you could find info like that? Original Message Follows From: Tim Castleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. _ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hallo Kim, (Please note I never say 'hello' either :o) Thursday, 09 September, 2004, 07:01:09, you wrote: KGT Greetings, KGT [Please note I never say 'hello'] KGT First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for KGT biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how KGT this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. KGT I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this KGT summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto KGT fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that KGT instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of KGT refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now KGT make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs KGT to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but KGT above 32F [0 C]. I remember you live in Texas but I don't remember if you ever said where. The valley, hill country, east Texas? My father was from Harlingen and I lived in west Texas in San Angelo for a time. Back in the mid seventies Mother Earth News had an article about making an above ground root cellar. Super insulated including the door if I remember correctly. You could try that. Set it up on blocks and frame it up and then put on the inner and outer walls with insulation. Haul in caliche and berm up around the thing after putting on a moisture-proof barrier. You would have to make sure the thing was extremely well insulated overhead and it would have to be pretty tight to keep from gaining heat inside. Can you get caliche where you are? We used it in west Texas to line ponds to hold water. I suppose if you had to you could run tile and rock underneath and build up a base which would be higher than the regular terrain and then build on top of that. Top it off with sheet metal roofing either white or silver to reflect the heat. I don't know if this would work or not but it may be worth a try. Good luck. I have a partner in Seguin who could have done it for you but he got a job as construction superintendent for Dillard's and goes all over the country working on their stores now. :o/ Happy Happy, Gustl KGT I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is KGT 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but KGT this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the KGT ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am KGT really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. KGT Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do KGT it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? KGT Bright Blessings, KGT Kim KGT ___ KGT Biofuel mailing list KGT [EMAIL PROTECTED] KGT http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel KGT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: KGT http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html KGT Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): KGT http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
not require energy. They had to store food here before electricity, all I need to find out is how. Bright Blessings, Kim At 09:41 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
We have a propane fridge. If you don't mind defrosting it every once in a while, they are nice to have when there is no grid. They tend to be small, expensive, and lack features the new electric fridges have (think battery (D Cell) fridge light). We will be putting in a new energy star electric fridge once the veggiegen gets set up next week. www.green-trust.org = = = Original message = = = Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software. Free download at http://www.ePrompter.com. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
- Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:41 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate At 09:50 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Hey Kim, Greetings Greg, A few of questions. 1) Why don't you say hello? I always open my epistles with: 'Greetings', partly because there are so many people named Kim out there and partly because I like it better. Some virus sent out a bunch of emails in my name, which is why I pointed this fact out. Fair enough. 2) What is the terrain around your house like ( flat hilly woods ect...)? Flat, no trees as yet, full sun. Ouch. 3) What is the weather like around your house ( hot mild dry damp ect...)? Hot and humid, I am 125 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico in Texas. Summer highs can hit 117F, lots of rain, heavy down pours are common such as 18 inches in 24 hours. Double ouch! I know what you are talking about there, I spent about 5 years or so of my life in Austin, but, visited many places south of Austin quite often - Houston, San Antonio, Bay Town to name a few, too often to remember. Ok. The only thing that comes close your situation that I think would work, is something I read a while back. A couple were in a similar situation ( only dryer ) and what they did, was, they found a large container ( in this case a old walk in freezer unit that didn't work any more ) and dug it in as far as they could. Then they mounded even more dirt on top ( made a small hill they did ).and made a double door entrance ( an airlock ) out of the sun. They also planted grass and bushes on the hill and trees directly to the east, south, and west, to shade the hill and for the cooling effect that the shade would give. In your case a solar cooling unit ( will actualy make ice if set up right ) would help allot. I have several in PDF format, and one in particular I think would work great for were you live. If you would like I could send a copy of it to you. Greg H. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hi Capra, Your suggestions about finding the free stone is a good one, I'll have to remember that. However, the statement that marble is 15 degrees cooler than the surroundings is false. Just measure the temps of various items in your bathroom (at the same height since warm air rises) and you'll see that the marble floor is not any colder than the rest of the room. http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may98/893033758.Ot.r.html -michael On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:36:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings Kim, The solution could be wrapping your storage area in marble. Marble has a curious property--it stays 15 degrees cooler than the surroundings. Not so good for a bathroom floor, as I have discovered. But a great idea for storing foods that need to be cold. While marble may sound expensive, depending where you live, you can pick up a whole bunch absolutely for free. I fulfill all my slab marble and granite needs by visiting the dumpsters of local tile and granite shops. These shops throw away many tons of stone every week! I personally have more than I can use, and nearly killed my rabbit hauling so much stone my shocks were fully compressed. You can even develop a relationship with the workers to have them save aside choice chunks for you before they get thrown in and buried, or broken. Then if you still had to chill it some, at least your refrigeration would be working less of the time. Capra Don't E-Mail, ZipMail! http://www.zipmail.com/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
cheap. This will be part of the plan. BTW, if you use hydronics in the floor it does stay warm even with marble. Bright Blessings, Kim At 03:36 PM 9/9/2004, you wrote: Greetings Kim, The solution could be wrapping your storage area in marble. Marble has a curious property--it stays 15 degrees cooler than the surroundings. Not so good for a bathroom floor, as I have discovered. But a great idea for storing foods that need to be cold. While marble may sound expensive, depending where you live, you can pick up a whole bunch absolutely for free. I fulfill all my slab marble and granite needs by visiting the dumpsters of local tile and granite shops. These shops throw away many tons of stone every week! I personally have more than I can use, and nearly killed my rabbit hauling so much stone my shocks were fully compressed. You can even develop a relationship with the workers to have them save aside choice chunks for you before they get thrown in and buried, or broken. Then if you still had to chill it some, at least your refrigeration would be working less of the time. Capra -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 3:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
[Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Have you considered gas fired refrigerators? They are a bit pricey, but work great, the technology is well developed and, if the refrigerants are handled properly, environmentally sound. A search on 'Servel', 'RV Refrigerator' or 'absorption refrigeration' may be useful. Kim Garth Travis said: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) Reports that say something hasn't happened are interesting to me, because as we know, there are known unknowns; there things we know we know, Rumsfeld told the briefing. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense, Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hey Kim, A few of questions. 1) Why don't you say hello? 2) What is the terrain around your house like ( flat hilly woods ect...)? 3) What is the weather like around your house ( hot mild dry damp ect...)? The first question is just out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, but, for the other two - well let's just say I have come across some very interesting solutions to some problems with things for root cellaring, and could pass them on with more info. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 05:01 Subject: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hello Kin Garth In our country where there is no electric grid avalable, it is standard the use of a refrigerator using Ammonia and Hidrogen as the refrigerating agents and a burner as energy source, using as fuel LPG o Kerosene as the combustion material. You might change the burner for those big ones prepared for veg oil or BioD instead and. Regards. Juan -Mensaje original- De: Kim Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: Jueves 9 de Septiembre de 2004 8:01 AM Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Hey Kim, Greetings Greg, A few of questions. 1) Why don't you say hello? I always open my epistles with: 'Greetings', partly because there are so many people named Kim out there and partly because I like it better. Some virus sent out a bunch of emails in my name, which is why I pointed this fact out. 2) What is the terrain around your house like ( flat hilly woods ect...)? Flat, no trees as yet, full sun. 3) What is the weather like around your house ( hot mild dry damp ect...)? Hot and humid, I am 125 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico in Texas. Summer highs can hit 117F, lots of rain, heavy down pours are common such as 18 inches in 24 hours. The first question is just out of curiosity, and you don't have to answer if you don't want, but, for the other two - well let's just say I have come across some very interesting solutions to some problems with things for root cellaring, and could pass them on with more info. Any ideas would be wonderful as I am out of ideas at this point. Greg H. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Kim, Aerated concrete (like Hebel blocks) can be used to make a coolroom. There is also a way you can use alcohol Zeolite to create a cooling system. Have a Google around and you should find some info. regards Doug On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:01 pm, Kim Garth Travis wrote: Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate
Greetings Kim, The solution could be wrapping your storage area in marble. Marble has a curious property--it stays 15 degrees cooler than the surroundings. Not so good for a bathroom floor, as I have discovered. But a great idea for storing foods that need to be cold. While marble may sound expensive, depending where you live, you can pick up a whole bunch absolutely for free. I fulfill all my slab marble and granite needs by visiting the dumpsters of local tile and granite shops. These shops throw away many tons of stone every week! I personally have more than I can use, and nearly killed my rabbit hauling so much stone my shocks were fully compressed. You can even develop a relationship with the workers to have them save aside choice chunks for you before they get thrown in and buried, or broken. Then if you still had to chill it some, at least your refrigeration would be working less of the time. Capra -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 3:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Creating a cool room storage in a hot climate Greetings, [Please note I never say 'hello'] First I would like to thank the committee for finding a new home for biofuels. If someone would be kind enough to share the information on how this list is set up, I would love to move my lists to elsewhere, too. I have been doing a great deal of research since my post much earlier this summer about how to preserve the harvest. I have discovered lacto fermented vegetables which are quite wonderful. The problem is now that instead of needing a bunch of freezers, I need a bunch of refrigerators.I have also acquire a Jersey cow name Carol, so I now make cheese that needs to be aged. The long term storage temperature needs to be below 50F. For corning beef and other things I need below 40F but above 32F [0 C]. I have a high water table so I can only go down 4 feet and the ground is 65F at this depth. I do make use of this for cooling my buildings, but this is a far way from the root cellar I need. My water comes out of the ground at 80F so it is no help. We really do need to go off grid so I am really trying to keep my power consumption to a minimum. Root cellaring sounds so wonderful, but I have yet to figure out how to do it in a hot humid climate. Any suggestions? Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
