Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
I wasn't talking aboout the ASTM test, although one of these days I'm going to talk to politicians and bureaucrats about getting the 'distillate curve' off the Canadian specs. All I meant is that we write up a 'biodiesel safe' thingy, like those silly foodsafe courses waiters and grocery store clerks have to take (after wiping your bum, wash your hands). Why let ignorant and liability-conscious politicos do it in a year or so, when we could do it easily, better and beat them to it? KF On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Nigel Kelly wrote: As funny as that is - I see merit in it. I'm new here, so some comments may be of ignorance - excuse them if they are ... but... Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the others. This gives the biodieselers the high ground. We can demonstrate we're happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good. Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
There is a lot of power in self-certification from trade groups (which the biofuels list essentially is for biodiesel, even if we don't think of ourselves that way).A relevant example from the PV industry. Colorado has had an active trade group that has an examination, continuing ed, and training process in order to maintain certification for designing and installing PV systems.When the utility was required to install a couple of MW of PV after losing a public vote last year, the entity they eventually started negotiating with was our trade group. And guess whose web page they refer people to to find an installer. Compare this to Oregon, where there was no grass routes certification process. There, the state legislature I believe, decided, after some shoddy systems going in, that only licensed electricians could touch PV modules. Technically, anyone else is not even allowed to take them out of the box. However, these licensed electricians have no requirement to know a thing about PV, and if they go by traditional high voltage wiring practices, could actually made a pretty dangerous system too. Sounds sort of like the biodiesel industry, where homebrewers produce high quality product (and some don't...), and some commercial firms produce crap. But you know who the government is going to put quality control to if they end of legislating something before we show that we are policing ourselves. On 2/22/06, Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't talking aboout the ASTM test, although one of these days I'm going to talk to politicians and bureaucrats about getting the 'distillate curve' off the Canadian specs. All I meant is that we write up a 'biodiesel safe' thingy, like those silly foodsafe courses waiters and grocery store clerks have to take (after wiping your bum, wash your hands). Why let ignorant and liability-conscious politicos do it in a year or so, when we could do it easily, better and beat them to it? KF On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Nigel Kelly wrote: As funny as that is - I see merit in it. I'm new here, so some comments may be of ignorance - excuse them if they are ... but... Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the others. This gives the biodieselers the high ground. We can demonstrate we're happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good. Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
This was what I was getting at, Zeke, but you've put it much more eloquently and succinctly. I agree that this biofuels list would make a great self-certification group, especially as Canadians tend to have this built-in inferiority complex; and since this list is so international, it would have clout up here. Kenji On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Zeke Yewdall wrote: There is a lot of power in self-certification from trade groups (which the biofuels list essentially is for biodiesel, even if we don't think of ourselves that way).A relevant example from the PV industry. Colorado has had an active trade group that has an examination, continuing ed, and training process in order to maintain certification for designing and installing PV systems.When the utility was required to install a couple of MW of PV after losing a public vote last year, the entity they eventually started negotiating with was our trade group. And guess whose web page they refer people to to find an installer. Compare this to Oregon, where there was no grass routes certification process. There, the state legislature I believe, decided, after some shoddy systems going in, that only licensed electricians could touch PV modules. Technically, anyone else is not even allowed to take them out of the box. However, these licensed electricians have no requirement to know a thing about PV, and if they go by traditional high voltage wiring practices, could actually made a pretty dangerous system too. Sounds sort of like the biodiesel industry, where homebrewers produce high quality product (and some don't...), and some commercial firms produce crap. But you know who the government is going to put quality control to if they end of legislating something before we show that we are policing ourselves. On 2/22/06, Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't talking aboout the ASTM test, although one of these days I'm going to talk to politicians and bureaucrats about getting the 'distillate curve' off the Canadian specs. All I meant is that we write up a 'biodiesel safe' thingy, like those silly foodsafe courses waiters and grocery store clerks have to take (after wiping your bum, wash your hands). Why let ignorant and liability-conscious politicos do it in a year or so, when we could do it easily, better and beat them to it? KF On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Nigel Kelly wrote: As funny as that is - I see merit in it. I'm new here, so some comments may be of ignorance - excuse them if they are ... but... Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the others. This gives the biodieselers the high ground. We can demonstrate we're happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good. Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
Fuse" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a "lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
Joe, You wrote: "can anyone confirm that if the methanol test passes, then the reprocess test becomes redundant?" From my experience, when the methanol test fails, glycerine does drop out on reprocessing several trials. When the methanol test passes, no glycerine drops out upon reprocessing. I now only do the methanol test as it is simple and quick. I dump the methanol used into my next methoxide. "Also has anyone tried blending bad oils with better oils to get a mixture that titrates better?" I mix oil from 4 different sources (roughly equal amounts)in a 55 gal settling drum. The titration on the mix is roughly an average of the individual titrations. I've had good resultson batches in which I blend15 gal (57L) very good oil with5 gal (19L)"nasty stuff". Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you could customize your blend to a desired titration. Ex. Suppose you had very good oil: Titrates 1.0g lye/L Very bad oil: Titrated 5g lye/L Mixing 3 parts very good w.1 part bad would produce a mix titration of 2g lye/L. (3/4 of the total oil@ 1g/L + 1/4 of total oil @ 5g/L). In other words, you can dilute the free fatty acids content in bad oil w. good oil. Best to you, Tom Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Well said Kenji and Zeke;I agree and I think the majority of what you are after Kenji is already written up on the J2F page. All that is needed is a parent document that references the various quality test documents or includes them. Correct me if I am wrong but can anyone confirm that if the methanol test passes, then the reprocess test becomes redundant? I haven't verified this. Currently I'm struggling with such poor feed stock that I can't get really complete reactions with the base only process. I should start doing acid base soon. Virgin oil works great of course but I don't want to spend the money to buy 30 liters of virgin oil just to see if anything will drop out after passing the methanol test. List experience would be a boon here folks...Also has anyone tried blending bad oils with better oils to get a mixture that titrates better? Is this a foolish notion? I need chemistry propeller heads to answer that one I suppose.Definitely as long as we continue using waste oils that vary in quality we need a really solid benchmark for quality testing but I believe we already have it!Another issue besides unreacted components in fue which is related to fuel quality is water content (dissolved water that is -ppm levels) and temperature effects. I have started documenting trials with a series of sample vials that contain various mixtures of BD and petroleum diesel (winter diesel recently obtained from the industry) ranging from 2% BD up to 80%. I have them out on my window sill and take pics at various outdoor temperatures. The overall quality document should speak to this issue of cold temperature use I think. I will share my findings with you if you want to include it.JoeKenji James Fuse wrote: This was what I was getting at, Zeke, but you've put it much more eloquently and succinctly. I agree that this biofuels list would make a great self-certification group, especially as Canadians tend to have this built-in inferiority complex; and since this list is so international, it would have clout up here. Kenji On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Zeke Yewdall wrote: There is a lot of power in self-certification from trade groups (which the biofuels list essentially is for biodiesel, even if we don't think of ourselves that way).A relevant example from the PV industry. Colorado has had an active trade group that has an examination, continuing ed, and training process in order to maintain certification for designing and installing PV systems.When the utility was required to install a couple of MW of PV after losing a public vote last year, the entity they eventually started negotiating with was our trade group. And guess whose web page they refer people to to find an installer. Compare this to Oregon, where there was no grass routes certification process. There, the state legislature I believe, decided, after some shoddy systems going in, that only licensed electricians could touch PV modules. Technically, anyone else is not even allowed to take them out of the box. However, these licensed electricians have no requirement to know a thing about PV, and if they go by traditional high voltage wiring practices, could actually made a pretty dangerous system too. Sounds sort of like the biodiesel industry, where homebrewers produce high quality product (and some don't...), and some commercial firms produce crap. But you know who the government is going to put quality control to if they end of legislating something befor
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
While I still have concerns that we will simply self-identifying ourselves, I also understand the impetus for the initiative here in Canada, the land of what we don't understand, we regulate. I'm not clear how the accreditation gets any credibility without an identifiable, credible organization backing it up, and that takes resources. I am going through a couple of similar deals with solar PV installation and solar water pre-heaters here. In both cases we have the national organization, but in Ontario, we have already lost the fight. There is a training regime for PV installers; I'm taking it. However, it has no value as of last month - PV must be installed by an electrician, whether they understand PV or not. No requirement to have PV training. Similarly with the solar water heaters. Must be installed by a plumber, whether they are familiar with dual loop systems or not. So, before we start developing a curriculum, is there any real expectation that the accreditation will have any value with any authoritative body (e.g., municipal safety officials, fire department inspectors)? Do we have any qualified people in those areas who can provide us with relevant materials for guidance and get the accepted language? No point re-inventing the wheel if it can be avoided. Would WHMIS course material be instructive? Copies of MSDS sheets? Are we looking at a package we could put up on a website, or mail out for a nominal fee? Going back to the food-handling example, don't the workers have to attend a session and answer questions to get their accreditation? Would we have to have a similar means of testing would-be practitioners? Or are we talking a code of practice that a safety official could examine with the practitioner indicating how they fulfill the requirements? Do we have any reason to believe an existing body like Canadian Renewable Fuels Association might be supportive of small scale producers? Anyone else? (e.g., waste management body, agricultural group for oilseed producers) Government body (e.g., Natural Resources Canada, Environment Canada, Climate Change Secretariat, Agriculture Canada)? NGOs (Federation of Canadian Municipalities, Sustainable Development Technology Canada)? Are we better off trying to co-opt a larger body as a champion than going it alone? How much opposition will we get from existing players, e.g., renderers like St. Lawrence-Rothesay or Biox? Which body actually mandates that biodiesel sold in Canada has to meet the ASTM standard (if any actually does)? If such a body exists, perhaps we can provide them with the materials we feel are appropriate, and then let them own and maintain them. Local rumour mill says there should be a Canadian book out on small-scale biodiesel production late spring this year. I understand it will cover some of these issues (safety, quality, handling of by-product). I'm willing to put in some time on this if there is general agreement to proceed. It looks like we have several local groups across the country trying to get organized at approximately the same time, so it might be worth while getting some agreement on the subject and provide a unified front if we choose to proceed. Darryl McMahon Kenji James Fuse wrote: I wasn't talking aboout the ASTM test, although one of these days I'm going to talk to politicians and bureaucrats about getting the 'distillate curve' off the Canadian specs. All I meant is that we write up a 'biodiesel safe' thingy, like those silly foodsafe courses waiters and grocery store clerks have to take (after wiping your bum, wash your hands). Why let ignorant and liability-conscious politicos do it in a year or so, when we could do it easily, better and beat them to it? KF On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Nigel Kelly wrote: As funny as that is - I see merit in it. I'm new here, so some comments may be of ignorance - excuse them if they are ... but... Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the others. This gives the biodieselers the high ground. We can demonstrate we're happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good. Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
All the more reason, perhaps, to consider organizing on a national level. Not only will we have more clout and respect when it comes to biodiesel production self-accrediation, but when we eventually get into ethanol (a biofuel that is useable by a much larger portion of the general population that biodiesel is) we may have an easier time getting the Canadian government to grant us the ability to make our own legally. In either case, this calls for grassroots action, and sooner than later. Andrew Netherton On 2/22/06, Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This was what I was getting at, Zeke, but you've put it much more eloquently and succinctly. I agree that this biofuels list would make a great self-certification group, especially as Canadians tend to have this built-in inferiority complex; and since this list is so international, it would have clout up here. Kenji On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Zeke Yewdall wrote: There is a lot of power in self-certification from trade groups (which the biofuels list essentially is for biodiesel, even if we don't think of ourselves that way).A relevant example from the PV industry. Colorado has had an active trade group that has an examination, continuing ed, and training process in order to maintain certification for designing and installing PV systems.When the utility was required to install a couple of MW of PV after losing a public vote last year, the entity they eventually started negotiating with was our trade group. And guess whose web page they refer people to to find an installer. Compare this to Oregon, where there was no grass routes certification process. There, the state legislature I believe, decided, after some shoddy systems going in, that only licensed electricians could touch PV modules. Technically, anyone else is not even allowed to take them out of the box. However, these licensed electricians have no requirement to know a thing about PV, and if they go by traditional high voltage wiring practices, could actually made a pretty dangerous system too. Sounds sort of like the biodiesel industry, where homebrewers produce high quality product (and some don't...), and some commercial firms produce crap. But you know who the government is going to put quality control to if they end of legislating something before we show that we are policing ourselves. On 2/22/06, Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't talking aboout the ASTM test, although one of these days I'm going to talk to politicians and bureaucrats about getting the 'distillate curve' off the Canadian specs. All I meant is that we write up a 'biodiesel safe' thingy, like those silly foodsafe courses waiters and grocery store clerks have to take (after wiping your bum, wash your hands). Why let ignorant and liability-conscious politicos do it in a year or so, when we could do it easily, better and beat them to it? KF On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Nigel Kelly wrote: As funny as that is - I see merit in it. I'm new here, so some comments may be of ignorance - excuse them if they are ... but... Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the others. This gives the biodieselers the high ground. We can demonstrate we're happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good. Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
Original Message - Kenji James Fuse Wrote I wasn't talking aboout the ASTM test, although one of these days I'm going to talk to politicians and bureaucrats about getting the 'distillate curve' off the Canadian specs. All I meant is that we write up a 'biodiesel safe' thingy, like those silly foodsafe courses waiters and grocery store clerks have to take (after wiping your bum, wash your hands). Why let ignorant and liability-conscious politicos do it in a year or so, when we could do it easily, better and beat them to it? KF Kenji, I'm willing to put in time and effort. The polititions will eventually form a board and write rules and regulations on produceing biofuels for personal and businesses. They will either say you can't do it personally or they'll make the requirements so strict that you won't be able to do it LEAGLY. To acredit ourselves and do it in a weak manner won't do any good in a few years. It would take detailed process documents, safety regulations, requirements, restrictions of materials to be used and various other things. Then the documents would have to be transulated into the major languages of the world. Without this type of work it would be pointless because the EPA, or various other orginizations would not reconize any authority you have created. There would not be a requirement to actually inspect and police the people doing it. They would be takeing legal responsability and negating their membership if they did not follow the rules and regulations. If we work and do it right we could form an associatoin that would be respected and reconized worldwide while makeing it possiable for people to produce biodiesel on a personal scale. Keith, How many members are there for the biofuel list? Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterpriese, Inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
Joe, You wrote: "can anyone confirm that if the methanol test passes, then the reprocess test becomes redundant?" From my experience, when the methanol test fails, glycerine does drop out on reprocessing several trials. When the methanol test passes, no glycerine drops out upon reprocessing. I now only do the methanol test as it is simple and quick. I dump the methanol used into my next methoxide. "Also has anyone tried blending bad oils with better oils to get a mixture that titrates better?" I mix oil from 4 different sources (roughly equal amounts)in a 55 gal settling drum. The titration on the mix is roughly an average of the individual titrations. I've had good resultson batches in which I blend15 gal (57L) very good oil with5 gal (19L)"nasty stuff". Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you could customize your blend to a desired titration. Ex. Suppose you had very good oil: Titrates 1.0g lye/L Very bad oil: Titrated 5g lye/L Mixing 3 parts very good w.1 part bad would produce a mix titration of 2g lye/L. (3/4 of the total oil@ 1g/L + 1/4 of total oil @ 5g/L). In other words, you can dilute the free fatty acids content in bad oil w. good oil. Best to you, Tom Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Well said Kenji and Zeke;I agree and I think the majority of what you are after Kenji is already written up on the J2F page. All that is needed is a parent document that references the various quality test documents or includes them. Correct me if I am wrong but can anyone confirm that if the methanol test passes, then the reprocess test becomes redundant? I haven't verified this. Currently I'm struggling with such poor feed stock that I can't get really complete reactions with the base only process. I should start doing acid base soon. Virgin oil works great of course but I don't want to spend the money to buy 30 liters of virgin oil just to see if anything will drop out after passing the methanol test. List experience would be a boon here folks...Also has anyone tried blending bad oils with better oils to get a mixture that titrates better? Is this a foolish notion? I need chemistry propeller heads to answer that one I suppose.Definitely as long as we continue using waste oils that vary in quality we need a really solid benchmark for quality testing but I believe we already have it!Another issue besides unreacted components in fue which is related to fuel quality is water content (dissolved water that is -ppm levels) and temperature effects. I have started documenting trials with a series of sample vials that contain various mixtures of BD and petroleum diesel (winter diesel recently obtained from the industry) ranging from 2% BD up to 80%. I have them out on my window sill and take pics at various outdoor temperatures. The overall quality document should speak to this issue of cold temperature use I think. I will share my findings with you if you want to include it.Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
Kenji you got a lot of 'assbestdoes' in that flame suit of yours? But seriously if not at the international level we could do something national at least. I don't mind bowing to the west and reciting the litany against fear of eco-death. But I won't sleep with my head to the north and I'm not going up into that ship you have waiting on the dark side of the moon. Joe Kenji James Fuse wrote: Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
As funny as that is - I see merit in it. I'm new here, so some comments may be of ignorance - excuse them if they are ... but... Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the others. This gives the biodieselers the high ground. We can demonstrate we're happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good. Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves
the numbers of homebrewers are burgeoning. Zeke's post about selling it makes the crucial point. For more about who makes quality fuel and who doesn't please see: Quality http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#qual1 With organic food certification, the food itself doesn't get tested. Certification is based on the system being used to produce the food. If the production system is deemed to meet the standards specifications, then the food it produces gets the seal of approval. I suggested this before as possibly a useful approach but I don't think I got any response at the time. For instance, our production system produces 60-litre batches of EU-spec biodiesel, according to laboratory tests. So anyone who can certify that he/she is using our system without significant changes can claim the same. I'm sure there are many other small-scale producers in many places whose operations could be used as such a model, at various levels of scale, I can think of quite a few offhand. Beyond all this though, I think there's a strong case against accreditation schemes, sticking your head up will just make it easier to chop it off, IMNSHO. I think we can just go round all this dinosaur stuff. Maybe these and no doubt many other certification and quality-control arguments can be used to baffle them with science and buy time in the meanwhile. Best wishes Keith Nigel - Original Message - From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves Would any of you be willing to dub me a lord of biodiesel' or something? Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point to it should some regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us down. Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually find out about the 'certificate'! I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal. I think I'm going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the insults). Kenji Fuse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
