Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method
Hey Mike; Ok I don't get this. I've seen this kind of comment a few times before and I don't see the logic in it. It takes me all of what 5 maybe 10 minutes to do a titration. Isn't it more fuss and work to do bracket test batches than just to run a titration? Joe Mike Weaver wrote: snip I'm just lazy and go with what is easy - I don't even titrate - just run a few bracket batches. So far so good... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method
Nah, the oil's always the same - it never changes - there's very litle range. When I get it I usually let it settle, then do a quick 3 batches with 1 liter shakes in a mason jar ( I know- I release the pressure). The batches are probably pointless also. If I didn't have such steady oil I'd titrate more - I even have a Hanna PH meter. I'm not recommending it - it's just what I've wound up with. Just find I don't need to titrate for now... Joe Street wrote: Hey Mike; Ok I don't get this. I've seen this kind of comment a few times before and I don't see the logic in it. It takes me all of what 5 maybe 10 minutes to do a titration. Isn't it more fuss and work to do bracket test batches than just to run a titration? Joe Mike Weaver wrote: snip I'm just lazy and go with what is easy - I don't even titrate - just run a few bracket batches. So far so good... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method
I'd second that - no offense to any of the titrating gurus on the list, nor to Aleks, but what works for me if to get oil from the same Chinese restaurant EVERY time, and use the old tried and true. I could never get the FoolProof method to work, but it was early in my BD tenure that I tried it, and the oil was iffy, as was my understanding of the whole process. I understand a lot people use it and like it. I'm just lazy and go with what is easy - I don't even titrate - just run a few bracket batches. So far so good... personally, I'd expend more effort getting good oil than learning to deal with bad oil... YMMV -Mike JJJN wrote: Tom, I did actually get about a 1/4cup of Glycerin from the method. Now that said i don't know if it was actually Glycerin or perhaps some FFA's or just plain black stuff that settled out in the acid phase. This is where I am just making the assumption that this is in fact Glycerin. One thing that I have found is there are three types of cooking oil out there. 1) good and clean where you can use any method and get a good yield. 2) As Bob Stated below, but I would like to say that at some point there is a diminishing return when the oil gets to bad. 3) Oil that is so bad that no matter what you do, you will not like the results. This oil is better off going to the Large scale producer that converts the oil to all FFA before conversion as the stuff I worked with was just a mess. So if the oil is Black leave it at the shack. Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Bob, Thanks for your response. I have a source of WVO that titrates at 5 or more when I use .1% KOH. It sounds like a candidate for the Foolproof Method. I hope to heat my house/water and run my car on BD. I can use all the WVO my little town produces. Higher yield, no soap produced .. somewhere over the rainbow, huh? Picture #7 at JTF The Foolproof way to make Biodiesel by Aleks Kac Free Fatty Acid to Ester Conversion shows First-stage glycerine. I was curious as to where the glycerine would come from if the acid stage only converted fatty acids. I have just ordered 97% sulfuric acid. Thanks for the tips. Tom - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method Howdy Tom, Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I've had success making quality BD using the single stage base method. I've become curious about the Foolproof Method (two stage Acid/Base) for a number of reasons. I've read JTF a few times and have browsed the archives. Could somebody experienced with the method help with a few questions? Part I True or False The foolproof method will: 1. Increase yield. for feedstock withs high titration's, yes. I use the two-step procedure if a titration with 1% KOH uses over about 5 ml. 2. Produce little or no soap in the glycerine cocktail 3. Produce little or no soap to be washed out of the BD I don't see much difference in soap production, the main difference is in reduced amt of base required, hence lower costs. Part IIFree Response Why does glycerine drop out after the first (acid) stage? I have never seen it happen. As I understand it this stage involves the esterification of FFAs. There is no transesterification of glycerides. acid catalyzed esterification of FFA's occurs much more rapidly than acid catalyzed transesterification. Part III Just wondering: 1. Aleks Kac only mentions NaOH. I assume that I can use KOH instead. Yes? yes 2. Was there any resolution to the discussion re: concentration of H2SO4 that is required? 98% preferred, 95% will work, 93% ? Has anyone succeeded with conc. as low as 90%? I only use 98% If you use lower concentrations you are introducing more water, the last thing you want in the reaction pot. In my procedure, I get it hotter (about 150 F) run it longer (a couple of hours minimum), don't see any glycerin at this stage even after waiting overnight. For the base stage I use the calculated amt of KOH plus enough to neutralize the sulfuric acid. and still have soap to deal with. -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
[Biofuel] Foolproof Method
Hello All, I've had success making quality BD using the single stage base method. I've become curious about the Foolproof Method (two stage Acid/Base) for a number of reasons. I've read JTF a few times and have browsed the archives. Could somebody experienced with the method help with a few questions? Part I True or False The foolproof method will: 1. Increase yield. 2. Produce little or no soap in the glycerine cocktail 3. Produce little or no soap to be washed out of the BD Part II Free Response Why does glycerine drop out after the first (acid) stage? As I understand it this stage involves the esterification of FFAs. There is no transesterification of glycerides. Part III Just wondering: 1. Aleks Kac only mentions NaOH. I assume that I can use KOH instead. Yes? 2. Was there any resolution to the discussion re: concentration of H2SO4 that is required? 98% preferred, 95% will work, 93% ? Has anyone succeeded with conc. as low as 90%? Thanks in advance, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method
Howdy Tom, Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I've had success making quality BD using the single stage base method. I've become curious about the Foolproof Method (two stage Acid/Base) for a number of reasons. I've read JTF a few times and have browsed the archives. Could somebody experienced with the method help with a few questions? Part I True or False The foolproof method will: 1. Increase yield. for feedstock withs high titration's, yes. I use the two-step procedure if a titration with 1% KOH uses over about 5 ml. 2. Produce little or no soap in the glycerine cocktail 3. Produce little or no soap to be washed out of the BD I don't see much difference in soap production, the main difference is in reduced amt of base required, hence lower costs. Part IIFree Response Why does glycerine drop out after the first (acid) stage? I have never seen it happen. As I understand it this stage involves the esterification of FFAs. There is no transesterification of glycerides. acid catalyzed esterification of FFA's occurs much more rapidly than acid catalyzed transesterification. Part III Just wondering: 1. Aleks Kac only mentions NaOH. I assume that I can use KOH instead. Yes? yes 2. Was there any resolution to the discussion re: concentration of H2SO4 that is required? 98% preferred, 95% will work, 93% ? Has anyone succeeded with conc. as low as 90%? I only use 98% If you use lower concentrations you are introducing more water, the last thing you want in the reaction pot. In my procedure, I get it hotter (about 150 F) run it longer (a couple of hours minimum), don't see any glycerin at this stage even after waiting overnight. For the base stage I use the calculated amt of KOH plus enough to neutralize the sulfuric acid. and still have soap to deal with. -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method
Bob, Thanks for your response. I have a source of WVO that titrates at 5 or more when I use .1% KOH. It sounds like a candidate for the Foolproof Method. I hope to heat my house/water and run my car on BD. I can use all the WVO my little town produces. Higher yield, no soap produced .. somewhere over the rainbow, huh? Picture #7 at JTF The Foolproof way to make Biodiesel by Aleks Kac Free Fatty Acid to Ester Conversion shows First-stage glycerine. I was curious as to where the glycerine would come from if the acid stage only converted fatty acids. I have just ordered 97% sulfuric acid. Thanks for the tips. Tom - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method Howdy Tom, Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I've had success making quality BD using the single stage base method. I've become curious about the Foolproof Method (two stage Acid/Base) for a number of reasons. I've read JTF a few times and have browsed the archives. Could somebody experienced with the method help with a few questions? Part I True or False The foolproof method will: 1. Increase yield. for feedstock withs high titration's, yes. I use the two-step procedure if a titration with 1% KOH uses over about 5 ml. 2. Produce little or no soap in the glycerine cocktail 3. Produce little or no soap to be washed out of the BD I don't see much difference in soap production, the main difference is in reduced amt of base required, hence lower costs. Part IIFree Response Why does glycerine drop out after the first (acid) stage? I have never seen it happen. As I understand it this stage involves the esterification of FFAs. There is no transesterification of glycerides. acid catalyzed esterification of FFA's occurs much more rapidly than acid catalyzed transesterification. Part III Just wondering: 1. Aleks Kac only mentions NaOH. I assume that I can use KOH instead. Yes? yes 2. Was there any resolution to the discussion re: concentration of H2SO4 that is required? 98% preferred, 95% will work, 93% ? Has anyone succeeded with conc. as low as 90%? I only use 98% If you use lower concentrations you are introducing more water, the last thing you want in the reaction pot. In my procedure, I get it hotter (about 150 F) run it longer (a couple of hours minimum), don't see any glycerin at this stage even after waiting overnight. For the base stage I use the calculated amt of KOH plus enough to neutralize the sulfuric acid. and still have soap to deal with. -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method
Tom, I did actually get about a 1/4cup of Glycerin from the method. Now that said i don't know if it was actually Glycerin or perhaps some FFA's or just plain black stuff that settled out in the acid phase. This is where I am just making the assumption that this is in fact Glycerin. One thing that I have found is there are three types of cooking oil out there. 1) good and clean where you can use any method and get a good yield. 2) As Bob Stated below, but I would like to say that at some point there is a diminishing return when the oil gets to bad. 3) Oil that is so bad that no matter what you do, you will not like the results. This oil is better off going to the Large scale producer that converts the oil to all FFA before conversion as the stuff I worked with was just a mess. So if the oil is Black leave it at the shack. Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Bob, Thanks for your response. I have a source of WVO that titrates at 5 or more when I use .1% KOH. It sounds like a candidate for the Foolproof Method. I hope to heat my house/water and run my car on BD. I can use all the WVO my little town produces. Higher yield, no soap produced .. somewhere over the rainbow, huh? Picture #7 at JTF The Foolproof way to make Biodiesel by Aleks Kac Free Fatty Acid to Ester Conversion shows First-stage glycerine. I was curious as to where the glycerine would come from if the acid stage only converted fatty acids. I have just ordered 97% sulfuric acid. Thanks for the tips. Tom - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Foolproof Method Howdy Tom, Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I've had success making quality BD using the single stage base method. I've become curious about the Foolproof Method (two stage Acid/Base) for a number of reasons. I've read JTF a few times and have browsed the archives. Could somebody experienced with the method help with a few questions? Part I True or False The foolproof method will: 1. Increase yield. for feedstock withs high titration's, yes. I use the two-step procedure if a titration with 1% KOH uses over about 5 ml. 2. Produce little or no soap in the glycerine cocktail 3. Produce little or no soap to be washed out of the BD I don't see much difference in soap production, the main difference is in reduced amt of base required, hence lower costs. Part IIFree Response Why does glycerine drop out after the first (acid) stage? I have never seen it happen. As I understand it this stage involves the esterification of FFAs. There is no transesterification of glycerides. acid catalyzed esterification of FFA's occurs much more rapidly than acid catalyzed transesterification. Part III Just wondering: 1. Aleks Kac only mentions NaOH. I assume that I can use KOH instead. Yes? yes 2. Was there any resolution to the discussion re: concentration of H2SO4 that is required? 98% preferred, 95% will work, 93% ? Has anyone succeeded with conc. as low as 90%? I only use 98% If you use lower concentrations you are introducing more water, the last thing you want in the reaction pot. In my procedure, I get it hotter (about 150 F) run it longer (a couple of hours minimum), don't see any glycerin at this stage even after waiting overnight. For the base stage I use the calculated amt of KOH plus enough to neutralize the sulfuric acid. and still have soap to deal with. -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] FOOLPROOF METHOD
Hello Roy Keith: Things arn't as bad as you see them with me... OR ... maybe ther are worse than I know. First ... I do know how to SWIRL lye in water .. the question involved (as I found out) the soda ash that was setteling on the bottom. Nothing in Journeytoforever or anywhere else (that I ever found) indicated that this was even a possibility. I've never seen such a thing, nor heard of it, other than from you. It seems to me that this should be stated as I think most people would buy their Lye from some retail store rather than a chemical supply house. Probably many do, and so have we in the past, yet in six years we've not heard of that happening. And we've used stale lye in the past. It always ended up clear. But it's not for me to tell you how to present your stuff. As far as experience .. you are right ... I don't have much ... but I ask you, how much experience would I need to DISCOVER that the lye/water had soda ash setteling? I'm no chemist and have stated that. Without this forum I feel I would never know. I don't think my experience has anything to do with this question unless you consider experience asking this forum. Perhaps not with that question. Second The titration level of the oil in question is 11. 11 gm Lye per liter. Does that include the basic 3.5gm? Yes ... I knew this .. I tested it three times and got the same answer each time. Okay, good - too many people want to jump into complex methods before they've learnt to crawl and too often the reason is that they want to skip learning titration. Not wise! Titration's basic, foundation stuff. I'm glad it doesn't include you. By the way, they ALL say they followed the process to the letter... until you start to probe a bit. This is what drove me to the FOOLPROOF method. I read this method and after reading it I felt I could follow the process to the letter and I did so. The process as stated is simple but I guess there's more to this than stated. How would I know? Well, sorry, by reading it properly. As I said below: NOTE: The two-stage biodiesel processes are advanced methods, not for novices -- learn the basics thoroughly first. The single-stage base method is the place to start. Start here. Not for novices: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#whystart Yea verily. I also read that any oil with a titraton level above above 5 is CRAP A bit more than that maybe, 6.5ml is usually doable enough, if you can't find anything better. Even at 5, you have to be much more precise and meticulous than at say 3.5. and here I sit with a titration level of 11. This is what drove me to the foolproff process. This info came from Biodiesel Homebrew Guide. Caveat emptor, IMNSHO. I don't answer for anything it might say in the Biodiesel Homebrew Guide, nor in Tickell's book either. As to the oil I am able to get, you are right I don't know how to judge oil at all other than through titration. I haven't read anything about telling any other way. Nor will you, I don't think, or not anything very useful. As with so much else, you have to get a feel for it, a sense of it, it doesn't come from books, it comes from the experience of handling it over time. All skills come that way, you have to develop them, it takes time and practice. I'm not trying to make it sound difficult, but I do resist attempts to make it seem simpler than it is. That sort of advice really doesn't pay off in the longer run, which is surely what we're all interested in. I read someone, I forget quite who offhand, saying that learning to make biodiesel's about as difficult as learning to brew your own beer or learning gardening. I've never brewed beer and I'm sure there's much more to learn in a garden, but perhaps it's a fairly apt comparison. You don't learn it overnight anyway. As far as me not seeing the basic process well I did do the process on NEW oil so I would have an idea of what to look for. But how many times? Enough to get the sense and experience they talk of in the Not for novices bit above? Roy, whether that oil titrates at 11.1g/l or 7.6g/l you probably haven't got much hope of processing it. Why make life impossible for yourself? But when you're a seasoned biodieseler in a year's time or something you should be able to process it by the single-stage base method, and reliably, though you'd only get about 75% production. I'm not recommending it, acid-base is the way to go, but you should be able to do it, and that's the level of skill you need to trouble-shoot an acid-base process that goes wrong, or any process that goes wrong. In fact you'd have to tinker with the acid-base process anyway with 11.1g/l oil. Not difficult. But what you'd almost certainly do is find a better source of oil, which is what I recommend. I'd suggest concentrating on two directions: find better oil, work on improving your skills with the single-stage process. In a few months'
[Biofuel] FOOLPROOF METHOD
Hi All I have tried the foolproof method twice now and have had bad results. I'm trying this method becauseI know I have CRUDDY oil. This has been the only oil I have been able to get so far (from several sources) so I'm trying to get it to work. It's SOYBEAN OIL from Chinese restaurants. It's really dark in color (loaded with SOY SAUCE I guess). I follow the direction in Journey to forever (The FOOLPROOF way to make biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html)to the letter. Whendoing the Second Stage I get NO glycerin separation. I added hours more mixing and checking and still got NO separation. I let the oil set overnight and still no separation. I used a Paing Mixer in a drill in the first stage and I used a Pump in the second stage. No splashing or high speed mixing or pumping. Good temp control during the whole process. In the first batch after I had no separation I added more Methoxide and when I let it stand and cool it Gelled. No separation in the gel. Anyone have any ideas?? My BEST to all of you. ROY Washbish Roy Washbish Certified Health Coach A HOME BUSINESS PRODUCTS THAT WORKPRODUCTS BUSINESSTRIVITA.COM/11393920 GREAT RETURN ON YOUR MONEY. SEE AD PROGRAM Visit mytrim.com/Roy Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out!___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] FOOLPROOF METHOD
Hello Roy You said once before I also am looking to go BIO the simplest way. You're making a mistake if you think the acid-base method is the simplest way. Not for novices it says at the top of that page, and for good reason: NOTE: The two-stage biodiesel processes are advanced methods, not for novices -- learn the basics thoroughly first. The single-stage base method is the place to start. Start here. Not for novices: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#whystart Here being here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start You haven't learnt any of the basics yet - not even how to mix lye with methanol, the last we heard, right? I don't want to be discouraging, but why ignore the advice of list members who've gone before you? ... so what am I missing? One answer: If everything goes exactly right, nothing. The problem is when something doesn't, and you have NO IDEA what's going on 'cuz you've never seen all the possible quirks of even the basic process. ...What's all this white stuff?... Nothing seems to be happening... There's this weird layer, and I'm wondering if it's biodiesel... etc etc. And so on - from Not for novices. The first question we'd ask would be, what's the titration level of the oil? Do you know? Learn the basics, go back to the beginning, Where do I start? There'll certainly be better oil available than the stuff you're trying to cut your teeth on, but you don't know how to recognise better oil yet, it's not always the way it might look at first appearance. Best wishes Keith Hi All I have tried the foolproof method twice now and have had bad results. I'm trying this method because I know I have CRUDDY oil. This has been the only oil I have been able to get so far (from several sources) so I'm trying to get it to work. It's SOYBEAN OIL from Chinese restaurants. It's really dark in color (loaded with SOY SAUCE I guess). I follow the direction in Journey to forever (The FOOLPROOF way to make biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html )to the letter. When doing the Second Stage I get NO glycerin separation. I added hours more mixing and checking and still got NO separation. I let the oil set overnight and still no separation. I used a Paing Mixer in a drill in the first stage and I used a Pump in the second stage. No splashing or high speed mixing or pumping. Good temp control during the whole process. In the first batch after I had no separation I added more Methoxide and when I let it stand and cool it Gelled. No separation in the gel. Anyone have any ideas?? My BEST to all of you. ROY Washbish Roy Washbish ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
x-charset ISO-8859-1Pieter, It always tickles me (that's a U.S. biodiesel joke) that so many non-wash advocates always declare without any problems. Well, of course there are never any problems until their are problems! People of sedentary lifestyle preparing to undergo their first quadruple bypass never had any problems until they had problems either. 105,000 miles is a nice chunk of mileage. But you are aware that a diesel should last 300 - 500,000 miles if well taken care of? Do you expect to get that far on unwashed fuel? Will you ever know how much farther you could have gone when problems occur had the fuel been washed? Do you really think that running residual soap, glycerin and caustic are going to help your engine performance and/or longevity? Certainly the presence of residual alcohol removes the safety factor of biodiesel's higher flash point. Oh well..., everyone has the right to make their own choices. As for acid/base and its benefits? Sounds as if you're using a rather consistant and un-abused oil. Not everyone is so lucky. But you could get a higher yield even with your oil if you went acid/base. The questions are whether the increased yield outweighs the labor, time and waste factor for you and whether or not you are of a mindset to go for expediency rather than maximum yields and environmental benefits. Some people gravitate to Hummers. Some people gravitate to Jettas. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Hi all, Maybe a stupid question, and with all respect to Aleks, but I am making BD now for allmost two years, using the single base methode, without titration, just use 150 liter methanol and 4.5 kg NaOH per 1000 liter used vegatable oil. Let it sit for at least a week and very slowly drain(?) what is the right word ? it from the top through a fine filter. I have never whashed the BD. I have driven over 140.000 km now without any problems. What would be the main reason to change to the fool proof method ? I am very willing to learn, so I hope nobody reads this as if the fool proof method would not be better. I just do not know why it would be better. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Scott Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:44 PM Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites that I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid make them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking in the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable prices? Thanks, Scott Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Pieter, Acid can be had much cheaper in 5 - 55 gallon drums. I've got those prices sitting on a page somewhere in a two foot stack on the far corner of the desk. Give me eight hours of shuteye and I can probably uncover a fairly recent per pound price. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Hi Todd, What prices are you mentioning ?? In Holland I pay 0,80 per liter acid, which can be sulfuric acid (98%) or posphoric acid (80%). I think you should try to find an industrie where they use a lot of this stuf and buy some from them. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Try a warehouse for commercial/municipal pool/water treatment. You should be able to get either for less than $20 a gallon, more like $12 for sulfuric and $18 for phosphoric. If all else fails, contact Aqua Science in Columbus, Ohio, 614-252-5000 and ask if they know of any industrial supply house(s) in the Philadelphia-Baltimore area. There have to be several. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Scott Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites that I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid make them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking in the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable prices? Thanks, Scott Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Send the freshest Valentine's flowers with a FREE vase from only $29.99! Shipped direct from the grower with a 7 day freshness guarantee and prices so low you save 30-55% off retail! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_iAw9B/xdlHAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
x-charset ISO-8859-1Dag Pieter Maar... Hi all, Maybe a stupid question, and with all respect to Aleks, but I am making BD now for allmost two years, using the single base methode, without titration, just use 150 liter methanol and 4.5 kg NaOH per 1000 liter used vegatable oil. Let it sit for at least a week and very slowly drain(?) what is the right word ? it from the top through a fine filter. I have never whashed the BD. I have driven over 140.000 km now without any problems. What would be the main reason to change to the fool proof method ? I am very willing to learn, so I hope nobody reads this as if the fool proof method would not be better. I just do not know why it would be better. But you HAVE had your problems, haven't you? If not with your Citroen, yet. You couldn't manage to separate the glycerine and FFA in your by-product, despite a lot of help and advice here, and that's dead easy - as I said at the time, it indicated something else was wrong. Then you described your process (using less lye than now - only the basic amount for virgin oil, though you use WVO): I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not titrate. The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole reaction has taken place. Temperature is 15C or a bit more. The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two days to bake fish in. After processing, I let it stand for a week or more. I don't wash the BD ( not that I recommend this way of working, but in my case it works OK ). The pH of the BD is just over 7. Plus that you don't separate the by-product, just leave it there and draw biodiesel off the top, and that you measure pH with litmus paper, not the best way. I commented: Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only three hours. I suggested you do a wash test: Have you ever tried washing your biodiesel? I'd be interested to know what happens. Will you try this? Put 150 ml of your biodiesel in a half-litre glass jar, add 150 ml of water (preferably distilled water if you have it, or just tap water if not), screw the lid on tight, and shake it up and down violently for 10 seconds or more. Tell us what happens next. This is what happened next - you wrote: Surprised about what happened : 3 layers. The top layer must be BD ( same color as it always is ), and than a rather thick layer of white flaky stuf, and a layer of troubled water. pH of the BD layer is still just over 7 (measured with litmus paper ). I wasn't surprised - well, a little surprised that it separated at all, and I'd guess it only did that because you let it settle for so long. ... you now have a visible measure of the extent to which the whole reaction has taken place, or perhaps hasn't. That white layer should be at most very thin, hardly more than a slick. I suggested various things you could try next to improve your process/product, but didn't try to push you into titration and using the right amounts of lye and methanol, heating, and washing: Other people using different oils and in different circumstances might not get it to work so well, but that's not your problem, and you didn't recommend it. But you didn't respond, and now it seems you are recommending it. And questioning why anyone would prefer to use the Foolproof acid-base process. The acid-base process is probably the best method available because it gives consistently high-quality results, even with poor-quality oils, with lower amounts of inputs and producing less by-products. But from the above I can only assume that you aren't very interested in the best quality but only in poor-quality fuel, poorly made, as long as it doesn't seem to damage your engine. Yet. You didn't succeed when you tried the Foolproof method. It's not for novices, we and others always recommend starting at the beginning and learning the basics first, but, rather tellingly, you don't know many of the basics, so I'm not surprised you failed. But please don't try to put opther people off. Best Keith Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. - Original Message - From: Scott Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:44 PM Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites that I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid make them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking in the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable prices? Thanks, Scott Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Send the freshest Valentine's flowers with a FREE vase from only $29.99! Shipped direct from the grower with a 7 day freshness guarantee and prices so low you save 30-55% off retail! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_iAw9B
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
x-charset ISO-8859-1I am very sorry if I suggested to put other people off the methods you recommend. Perhaps it is allso caused by not using the right terms ( I am not from an English speaking country ). Again, very sorry and as said in another mail, I will try it again and do it exactly as you advise. Keep you informed. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Dag Pieter Maar... Hi all, Maybe a stupid question, and with all respect to Aleks, but I am making BD now for allmost two years, using the single base methode, without titration, just use 150 liter methanol and 4.5 kg NaOH per 1000 liter used vegatable oil. Let it sit for at least a week and very slowly drain(?) what is the right word ? it from the top through a fine filter. I have never whashed the BD. I have driven over 140.000 km now without any problems. What would be the main reason to change to the fool proof method ? I am very willing to learn, so I hope nobody reads this as if the fool proof method would not be better. I just do not know why it would be better. But you HAVE had your problems, haven't you? If not with your Citroen, yet. You couldn't manage to separate the glycerine and FFA in your by-product, despite a lot of help and advice here, and that's dead easy - as I said at the time, it indicated something else was wrong. Then you described your process (using less lye than now - only the basic amount for virgin oil, though you use WVO): I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not titrate. The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole reaction has taken place. Temperature is 15C or a bit more. The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two days to bake fish in. After processing, I let it stand for a week or more. I don't wash the BD ( not that I recommend this way of working, but in my case it works OK ). The pH of the BD is just over 7. Plus that you don't separate the by-product, just leave it there and draw biodiesel off the top, and that you measure pH with litmus paper, not the best way. I commented: Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only three hours. I suggested you do a wash test: Have you ever tried washing your biodiesel? I'd be interested to know what happens. Will you try this? Put 150 ml of your biodiesel in a half-litre glass jar, add 150 ml of water (preferably distilled water if you have it, or just tap water if not), screw the lid on tight, and shake it up and down violently for 10 seconds or more. Tell us what happens next. This is what happened next - you wrote: Surprised about what happened : 3 layers. The top layer must be BD ( same color as it always is ), and than a rather thick layer of white flaky stuf, and a layer of troubled water. pH of the BD layer is still just over 7 (measured with litmus paper ). I wasn't surprised - well, a little surprised that it separated at all, and I'd guess it only did that because you let it settle for so long. ... you now have a visible measure of the extent to which the whole reaction has taken place, or perhaps hasn't. That white layer should be at most very thin, hardly more than a slick. I suggested various things you could try next to improve your process/product, but didn't try to push you into titration and using the right amounts of lye and methanol, heating, and washing: Other people using different oils and in different circumstances might not get it to work so well, but that's not your problem, and you didn't recommend it. But you didn't respond, and now it seems you are recommending it. And questioning why anyone would prefer to use the Foolproof acid-base process. The acid-base process is probably the best method available because it gives consistently high-quality results, even with poor-quality oils, with lower amounts of inputs and producing less by-products. But from the above I can only assume that you aren't very interested in the best quality but only in poor-quality fuel, poorly made, as long as it doesn't seem to damage your engine. Yet. You didn't succeed when you
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
x-charset ISO-8859-1Pieter, Yours' was a reasonable question. I don't think it put anyone off. Why would anyone want to use a process that requires an extra stage? That is presuming that the presently used process is yielding similar results. That is the 64,000 dollar question. Six to twenty percent higher yield is a pretty good reason. Less failed reactions, less chemical inputs, less need to salvage batches. Less worry as to whether or not a batch is complete. All are pretty good reasons as well. Nothing is more disappointing (especially after having become familiar with acid/base) to see one-third of your reactor filled with glycerin cocktail after conducting a straight base reaction and then putting those contents side by side with an acid/base reaction with the same oil and comparing the amount of glycerin cocktail between the two. It's not that there's more glycerin volume between the two, but soap - which would be okay if soap is what you're after. I would encourage anyone using WVO as a feedstock to work towards acid/base and the other processes after the reaction, such as alcohol recovery, FFA recovery (glycerol recovery) and waste water treatment. All of these combined make for a complete process. Unfortunately, probably 90% of the home biodieselers stop with the reaction and pay no heed either to increasing their yields or dealing with their co-products (waste products). Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method I am very sorry if I suggested to put other people off the methods you recommend. Perhaps it is allso caused by not using the right terms ( I am not from an English speaking country ). Again, very sorry and as said in another mail, I will try it again and do it exactly as you advise. Keep you informed. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Dag Pieter Maar... Hi all, Maybe a stupid question, and with all respect to Aleks, but I am making BD now for allmost two years, using the single base methode, without titration, just use 150 liter methanol and 4.5 kg NaOH per 1000 liter used vegatable oil. Let it sit for at least a week and very slowly drain(?) what is the right word ? it from the top through a fine filter. I have never whashed the BD. I have driven over 140.000 km now without any problems. What would be the main reason to change to the fool proof method ? I am very willing to learn, so I hope nobody reads this as if the fool proof method would not be better. I just do not know why it would be better. But you HAVE had your problems, haven't you? If not with your Citroen, yet. You couldn't manage to separate the glycerine and FFA in your by-product, despite a lot of help and advice here, and that's dead easy - as I said at the time, it indicated something else was wrong. Then you described your process (using less lye than now - only the basic amount for virgin oil, though you use WVO): I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not titrate. The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole reaction has taken place. Temperature is 15C or a bit more. The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two days to bake fish in. After processing, I let it stand for a week or more. I don't wash the BD ( not that I recommend this way of working, but in my case it works OK ). The pH of the BD is just over 7. Plus that you don't separate the by-product, just leave it there and draw biodiesel off the top, and that you measure pH with litmus paper, not the best way. I commented: Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5% stoich for soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low temps for only three hours. I suggested you do a wash test: Have you ever tried washing your biodiesel? I'd be interested to know what happens. Will you try this? Put 150 ml of your biodiesel in a half-litre glass jar, add 150 ml of water (preferably distilled water if you have it, or just tap water if not), screw the lid
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
x-charset ISO-8859-1Try a warehouse for commercial/municipal pool/water treatment. You should be able to get either for less than $20 a gallon, more like $12 for sulfuric and $18 for phosphoric. If all else fails, contact Aqua Science in Columbus, Ohio, 614-252-5000 and ask if they know of any industrial supply house(s) in the Philadelphia-Baltimore area. There have to be several. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Scott Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites that I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid make them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking in the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable prices? Thanks, Scott Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Send the freshest Valentine's flowers with a FREE vase from only $29.99! Shipped direct from the grower with a 7 day freshness guarantee and prices so low you save 30-55% off retail! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_iAw9B/xdlHAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hi all, Maybe a stupid question, and with all respect to Aleks, but I am making BD now for allmost two years, using the single base methode, without titration, just use 150 liter methanol and 4.5 kg NaOH per 1000 liter used vegatable oil. Let it sit for at least a week and very slowly drain(?) what is the right word ? it from the top through a fine filter. I have never whashed the BD. I have driven over 140.000 km now without any problems. What would be the main reason to change to the fool proof method ? I am very willing to learn, so I hope nobody reads this as if the fool proof method would not be better. I just do not know why it would be better. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Scott Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:44 PM Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites that I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid make them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking in the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable prices? Thanks, Scott Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Hi Todd, What prices are you mentioning ?? In Holland I pay 0,80 per liter acid, which can be sulfuric acid (98%) or posphoric acid (80%). I think you should try to find an industrie where they use a lot of this stuf and buy some from them. Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Try a warehouse for commercial/municipal pool/water treatment. You should be able to get either for less than $20 a gallon, more like $12 for sulfuric and $18 for phosphoric. If all else fails, contact Aqua Science in Columbus, Ohio, 614-252-5000 and ask if they know of any industrial supply house(s) in the Philadelphia-Baltimore area. There have to be several. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Scott Alexander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites that I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid make them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking in the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable prices? Thanks, Scott Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Foolproof method
Hey yall- I am Bill Clark and new to the group as well as biodiesel. I am currently developing a Southeastern Center for Sustainable Communities for Audubon International. I am located in S.E. Alabama, U.S.A. I have many questions so I will pose them 1 at a time. When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? I have been watching the messages for a couple of days and it seems a lively group. Have much enjoyed it. Bill C. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Bill - sunlight will degrade vegoils. Best to store in dark and use as soon as possible. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/10/02 2:22 PM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey yall- I am Bill Clark and new to the group as well as biodiesel. I am currently developing a Southeastern Center for Sustainable Communities for Audubon International. I am located in S.E. Alabama, U.S.A. I have many questions so I will pose them 1 at a time. When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? I have been watching the messages for a couple of days and it seems a lively group. Have much enjoyed it. Bill C. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Edward- Thanks for your reply. Still wondering about time a temp. It would still be possible for me to heat with solar without exposing oil to sunlight. For now, WVO will be used as collected. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel-JTF biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Bill - sunlight will degrade vegoils. Best to store in dark and use as soon as possible. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/10/02 2:22 PM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey yall- I am Bill Clark and new to the group as well as biodiesel. I am currently developing a Southeastern Center for Sustainable Communities for Audubon International. I am located in S.E. Alabama, U.S.A. I have many questions so I will pose them 1 at a time. When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? I have been watching the messages for a couple of days and it seems a lively group. Have much enjoyed it. Bill C. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
- Original Message - From: William Clark Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 15:22 Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? Sunlight can affect veg oil, and HDPE if the HDPE is not made for being out in the sunlight ( the UV can degrade both the plastic and the oil ). Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
All this is based on my reading rather than actual experience, but as long as the solar radiation is only being applied to the biodiesel as heat, the controlled use of that heat to rid WVO of water should present no problem. (Are you sure the time and temp you gave is correct? It sounds more like a method for pasteurization.) Edward Beggs is correct that exposure to factors such as light and heat (and air) are not good for diesel-type fuels. If you are consuming as you produce, without prolonged storage, then you probably don't have much to worry about. Given your ambient temperatures and humidity, your biggest problem (if you encounter any) might be microbial activity, but if you use what you make reasonably quickly and have a good fuel filtration system, that shouldn't be reason to worry. William Clark wrote: When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just slar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Christopher- Still curious. Apart from UV degradation of plastic and oil, would there be any problems associated with exceeding time and temp I mentioned. I got these from Journey To Forever website under Foolproof Method. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method All this is based on my reading rather than actual experience, but as long as the solar radiation is only being applied to the biodiesel as heat, the controlled use of that heat to rid WVO of water should present no problem. (Are you sure the time and temp you gave is correct? It sounds more like a method for pasteurization.) Edward Beggs is correct that exposure to factors such as light and heat (and air) are not good for diesel-type fuels. If you are consuming as you produce, without prolonged storage, then you probably don't have much to worry about. Given your ambient temperatures and humidity, your biggest problem (if you encounter any) might be microbial activity, but if you use what you make reasonably quickly and have a good fuel filtration system, that shouldn't be reason to worry. William Clark wrote: When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
You can use the sun to heat it for filtering, etc., but it is best to store, before and after, in the dark and not store any longer than you need to - unless it's frozen under a snowdrift, that is. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/10/02 3:16 PM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Edward- Thanks for your reply. Still wondering about time a temp. It would still be possible for me to heat with solar without exposing oil to sunlight. For now, WVO will be used as collected. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel-JTF biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Bill - sunlight will degrade vegoils. Best to store in dark and use as soon as possible. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/10/02 2:22 PM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey yall- I am Bill Clark and new to the group as well as biodiesel. I am currently developing a Southeastern Center for Sustainable Communities for Audubon International. I am located in S.E. Alabama, U.S.A. I have many questions so I will pose them 1 at a time. When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? I have been watching the messages for a couple of days and it seems a lively group. Have much enjoyed it. Bill C. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Well, on paper at least you want to minimize exposure to heat prior to use. But I assume you are not planning to store the stuff for weeks or months in constant exposure to direct sun, and if the duration is short (say, a day or two) your vehicle may not notice any practical difference, even if a difference could be clearly detected analytically. You might try experimenting with small quantities, no more than a few gallons at a time, to see how time and temp affect your particular brew. William Clark wrote: Christopher- Still curious. Apart from UV degradation of plastic and oil, would there be any problems associated with exceeding time and temp I mentioned. I got these from Journey To Forever website under Foolproof Method. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Foolproof method
Gentlemen, When you say use as soon as possible, are you referring to the WVO or the biodiesel? I was under the impression that biodiesel will store for about a year if kept in a cool, dark place. Ed -Original Message- From: William Clark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:16 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Edward- Thanks for your reply. Still wondering about time a temp. It would still be possible for me to heat with solar without exposing oil to sunlight. For now, WVO will be used as collected. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel-JTF biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method Bill - sunlight will degrade vegoils. Best to store in dark and use as soon as possible. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/10/02 2:22 PM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey yall- I am Bill Clark and new to the group as well as biodiesel. I am currently developing a Southeastern Center for Sustainable Communities for Audubon International. I am located in S.E. Alabama, U.S.A. I have many questions so I will pose them 1 at a time. When settling out water from the WVO, one method suggests heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes. Is this temperature a minimum, same for time? My reason for asking is that we have much sunshine here. We could easily heat to that temp or more using just solar. The tanks I intend to use are HDPE 1000L tanks recycled from a latex plant here in town. They are opaque and have an aluminum pallet and frame already attached. Will sunlight have any negative effects on the oil? I have been watching the messages for a couple of days and it seems a lively group. Have much enjoyed it. Bill C. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
