<x-charset ISO-8859-1>Pieter,
Yours' was a reasonable question. I don't think it put anyone off.
Why would anyone want to use a process that requires an extra stage? That is
presuming that the presently used process is yielding similar results.
That is the 64,000 dollar question. Six to twenty percent higher yield is a
pretty good reason. Less failed reactions, less chemical inputs, less need
to salvage batches. Less worry as to whether or not a batch is complete. All
are pretty good reasons as well.
Nothing is more disappointing (especially after having become familiar with
acid/base) to see one-third of your reactor filled with glycerin cocktail
after conducting a straight base reaction and then putting those contents
side by side with an acid/base reaction with the same oil and comparing the
amount of glycerin cocktail between the two.
It's not that there's more glycerin volume between the two, but soap - which
would be okay if soap is what you're after.
I would encourage anyone using WVO as a feedstock to work towards acid/base
and the other processes after the reaction, such as alcohol recovery, FFA
recovery (glycerol recovery) and waste water treatment.
All of these combined make for a complete process. Unfortunately, probably
90% of the home biodieselers stop with the reaction and pay no heed either
to increasing their yields or dealing with their co-products ("waste"
products).
Todd Swearingen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pieter Koole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
> I am very sorry if I suggested to put other people off the methods you
> recommend.
> Perhaps it is allso caused by not using the right terms ( I am not from an
> English speaking country ).
> Again, very sorry and as said in another mail, I will try it again and do
it
> exactly as you advise.
> Keep you informed.
>
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
> Pieter Koole
> Netherlands.
>
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> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 8:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Foolproof method
>
>
> > Dag Pieter
> >
> > Maar...
> >
> > >Hi all,
> > >Maybe a stupid question, and with all respect to Aleks, but I am making
> BD
> > >now for allmost two years, using the single base methode, without
> titration,
> > >just use 150 liter methanol and 4.5 kg NaOH per 1000 liter used
vegatable
> > >oil. Let it sit for at least a week and very slowly drain(?) what is
the
> > >right word ? it from the top through a fine filter. I have never
whashed
> the
> > >BD.
> > >I have driven over 140.000 km now without any problems.
> > >What would be the main reason to change to the fool proof method ?
> > >I am very willing to learn, so I hope nobody reads this as if the fool
> proof
> > >method would not be better. I just do not know why it would be better.
> >
> > But you HAVE had your problems, haven't you? If not with your
> > Citroen, yet. You couldn't manage to separate the glycerine and FFA
> > in your by-product, despite a lot of help and advice here, and that's
> > dead easy - as I said at the time, it indicated something else was
> > wrong. Then you described your process (using less lye than now -
> > only the basic amount for virgin oil, though you use WVO):
> >
> > >I use 3.5 grams of lye and 150 ml methanol in the process and do not
> > >titrate.
> > >The mixing takes two or three hours, just to make sure that the whole
> > >reaction has taken place.
> > >Temperature is 15ˆžC or a bit more.
> > >The oil I use is WVO ( soya ), which has been used for one or two days
to
> > >bake fish in.
> > >After processing, I let it stand for a week or more. I don't wash the
BD
> (
> > >not that I recommend this way of working, but in my case it works OK ).
> > >The pH of the BD is just over 7.
> >
> > Plus that you don't separate the by-product, just leave it there and
> > draw biodiesel off the top, and that you measure pH with litmus
> > paper, not the best way.
> >
> > I commented: "Not enough lye for WVO and 25ml excess methanol (12.5%
> > stoich for soy) is unlikely to be enough, especially at such low
> > temps for only three hours."
> >
> > I suggested you do a wash test:
> >
> > > Have you ever tried washing your biodiesel? I'd be interested to know
> > > what happens. Will you try this? Put 150 ml of your biodiesel in a
> > > half-litre glass jar, add 150 ml of water (preferably distilled water
> > > if you have it, or just tap water if not), screw the lid on tight,
> > > and shake it up and down violently for 10 seconds or more. Tell us
> > > what happens next.
> >
> > This is what happened next - you wrote:
> >
> > > Surprised about what happened : 3 layers. The top layer must be BD
> > >( same color as it always is ), and than a rather thick layer of
> > >white flaky stuf, and a layer of troubled water. pH of the BD layer
> > >is still just over 7 (measured with litmus paper ).
> >
> > I wasn't surprised - well, a little surprised that it separated at
> > all, and I'd guess it only did that because you let it settle for so
> > long. "... you now have a visible measure of the extent to which the
> > whole reaction has taken place, or perhaps hasn't. That white layer
> > should be at most very thin, hardly more than a slick."
> >
> > I suggested various things you could try next to improve your
> > process/product, but didn't try to push you into titration and using
> > the right amounts of lye and methanol, heating, and washing: "Other
> > people using different oils and in different circumstances might not
> > get it to work so well, but that's not your problem, and you didn't
> > recommend it."
> >
> > But you didn't respond, and now it seems you are recommending it. And
> > questioning why anyone would prefer to use the "Foolproof" acid-base
> > process. The acid-base process is probably the best method available
> > because it gives consistently high-quality results, even with
> > poor-quality oils, with lower amounts of inputs and producing less
> > by-products.
> >
> > But from the above I can only assume that you aren't very interested
> > in the best quality but only in poor-quality fuel, poorly made, as
> > long as it doesn't seem to damage your engine. Yet.
> >
> > You didn't succeed when you tried the Foolproof method. It's not for
> > novices, we and others always recommend starting at the beginning and
> > learning the basics first, but, rather tellingly, you don't know many
> > of the basics, so I'm not surprised you failed. But please don't try
> > to put opther people off.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> > >Met vriendelijke groeten,
> > >Pieter Koole
> > >Netherlands.
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Scott Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:44 PM
> > >Subject: [biofuel] Foolproof method
> > >
> > >
> > > > I wanted to try Alek's foolproof method, but the couple of sites
that
> > > > I've found via the Internet for sulfuric acid and phosphoric acid
make
> > > > them seem quite expensive. Presumably that means that I'm looking
in
> > > > the wrong place. Where should I go to get these at reasonable
prices?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Scott
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