Re: t-and-f: Radcliffe's marathon pacing slammed by IAAF
They clearly have too much time on their hands. I wonder if he is going to talk to her like a father too. Sure, why not? Talking to Marion Jones like a father apparently worked. ;-) Kurt Bray _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: The 3rd Hardest Thing to do in Sports
Although the cartoon representation they provide looks a lot more like someone high jumping than someone pole vaulting. Kurt Bray Roger Ruth will be happy about number 3. 2 out of 10(so far). Not bad. Regards, Martin http://www.usatoday.com/sports/ten-hardest-splash.htm Kurt Bray wrote: According to USA Today, running a fast marathon is the 7th hardest thing in sports to accomplish, one place ahead of completing the Tour de France: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-02-20-ten-hardest-marathon_x.htm They are counting down the top ten, one difficult thing each day, and today they are featuring the marathon. The piece has an interview Khannouchi. Kurt Bray _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
t-and-f: The 7th Hardest Thing to do in Sports
According to USA Today, running a fast marathon is the 7th hardest thing in sports to accomplish, one place ahead of completing the Tour de France: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2003-02-20-ten-hardest-marathon_x.htm They are counting down the top ten, one difficult thing each day, and today they are featuring the marathon. The piece has an interview Khannouchi. Kurt Bray _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: MARION SPEAKS Some interview
Whispers of drug use(uncalled for in this case) doesn't affect baseball or football or are we too sophisticated to be compared to such endeavours? Whispers never bothered those sports much. For that matter, whispers never bothered track much either. It's when the volume goes up and whispers turn into headlines that the damage gets done. And that includes major sports. Baseball had a major dope scandal on its hands last year when Ken Caminiti confessed to his own drug use and asserted that half of major league players were on steroids. (He later backtracked under intense pressure.) Many newspaper and TV stories about the scandal featured interviews with fans saying that they were disillusioned with baseball and no longer considered the performances legitimate. The flak was intense enough to convince the players union to agree to a testing program for the first time in history, to at least provide the appearance of doing something about he problem. In case news of this mess never made news up in Canada you can read up on it here: http://www.drugsinsport.net/archives/archive-may02.htm So major sports are by no means immune to this problem. No matter whether it's track or baseball, drug headlines are never a good thing. Kurt Bray _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Francis speaks some more
Just a few days ago in this debate, I said that disavowing drugs was what Charlie needed to do. And now he's done it. He didn't have to prostrate himself, just commit himself to living within the rules. I hope that this is not a cynical rehabilitation of Charlie by the IAAF or whomever, as Higgins charges in one of these articles. Only time will tell, but I think Charlie is off to a good start. As for the notion that the antipathy to Charlie by American track officials is based on his being Canadian, well I'm no track official and I certainly can't speak for them, but I don't think it matters all that much. Canadians don't seem like foreigners to most Americans (which annoys many Canadians, preferring to insist that they are waaay different from Americans), which is why Canadians are so well accepted in the US. Ever listen to the radio or VH1 these days? You get an endless stream of Alanis Morrisette, Shania Twain, Avril Levigne, Celine Dion, Sarah McLachlan, Nelly Furtado, Barenaked Ladies, Crash Test Dummies, K.D. Lang, etc. - Canadians all. Celine Dion sang God Bless America at the recent Superbowl for crying out loud, and Shania Twain performed at halftime. Celine Dion sang at the opening ceremonies of the Atlanta Olympics too. So I doubt that being Canadian is much of an issue for most Americans. Kurt Bray _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: IAAF is cautious on Charlie Francis statementagainst doping
Right, but which Charlie do you believe? Charlie then or Charlie now? What I'm saying is that IF (a very big if) Charlie has now seen the light thanks to watching Marion and Tim compete clean, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that the old Charlie was either untruthful or simply wrong, and that there were at least some clean runners at the top all the time. Kurt Bray or, *to play devil's advocate* (or, if you believe that part of Francis's writings) Ben was the same caliber as those around him, and when they all doped, the result was the same, but they just ran faster. From: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 05:12:13 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: IAAF is cautious on Charlie Francis statement against doping In other words, maybe Ben really was a no more than a second-tier sprinter who needed to use dope in order to beat clean athletes who were better than him. _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: IAAF is cautious on Charlie Francis statement against doping
Tim and Marion have proven to me that athletic performances at the very highest level can be achieved without resort to performance enhancing drugs, he said. IMHO, this is the most interesting part of Charlie's recent statement. Because if it's true and Tim and Marion have in fact shown him that it's possible to reach the very top without dope in 2003, then I assume that Charlie is smart enough to ponder for a moment and realize that such a possibility must have also existed in the past. That back when he was pointing the finger at every athlete at the top, maybe some of them, or many of them, or maybe even most of them, were actually clean. In other words, maybe Ben really was a no more than a second-tier sprinter who needed to use dope in order to beat clean athletes who were better than him. Kurt Bray From: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Martin J. Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: IAAF is cautious on Charlie Francis statement against doping Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 15:23:36 -0500 Fast Track, which promotes track and field events in Britain, is sending an official to meet with Wells this week to try to sign Jones and Montgomery to compete in the London Grand Prix on Aug. 8. The key word up there is try. That doesn't look like the actions of an organization holding out the threat of a boycott. Shouldn't Mohammed be going to the mountain? http://www.therecord.com/sports/s020324A.html Regards, Martin _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
And if his program is so clean, why is he even associating with dope-drenched publications like Testosterone Nation for crying out loud? Last I checked it was a free country. Back to the rule of law. Doesn't prove a thing. You are right - doesn't prove a thing. But it's like the old Walks like a duck... thing. If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? It's a free country all right, and one of the difficulties of a free country is that you are also free to be a fool. And Charlie is apparently taking advantage of all of his freedoms. Kurt Bray _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
The existence of dirty Americans doesn't make Charlie any cleaner. Kurt Bray The same thing as the rest of the world is concluding about the US because of the suppressed US positives. Regards, Martin Kurt Bray wrote: If Charlie has a big history of dope, currently defends dope in interviews, and associates with avowed dopers like the fine citizens over at Testosterone Nation, what are reasonable, well-meaning people likely to conclude? _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
From the article linked below: Francis has done his time and needs the chance to show he can make a contribution in athletics. Montgomery and Jones have come to that conclusion. Sure Charlie has done his time, but the problem is that he hasn't sworn off his crime. He apparently still cheerfully embraces dope in athletics just as much as he ever did. Until he convincingly turns his back on dope he won't be welcome in the sport. Kurt Bray I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good for them. Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also apologise for declaring he will talk to her like a father. Jones is grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father. http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html Regards, Martin _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to prostrate himself and why should he? Why should he? So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's why. Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the whole sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be welcome. Kurt Bray _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
You're right - he is back. What I should have said was that he would be welcomed back, that he wouldn't have to coach in secret. If people weren't still worried about his current ..uh.. coaching methods, this whole Jones/Montgomery thing would be a non-issue. But he apparently has not convinced anyone that he can/will/does coach clean. Kurt Bray But he's already back in the sport, and probably in a bigger fashion than ever. He certainly hasn¹t' existed in a vacuum all these years. I have absolutely no evidence regarding this, but I'd fall over if it turned out that MM are the first significant track people to seek his services through the years. They're just the high profile ones. If he prostrated himself he'd probably end up with less business than he has now. And that's what it's all about, in the final analysis. gh From: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:32:43 + To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to prostrate himself and why should he? Why should he? So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's why. Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the whole sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be welcome. Kurt Bray _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
I'd also like Kurt or someone to word the press release that they think he should issue that would settle everyone down. And I mean that-I'd really be curious to see that. It wouldn't take all that much. He wouldn't even have to, as you say, prostrate himself. All he have to do is honestly and sincerely disavow the use of dope in his training of athletes - and then actually stick to it. But instead what we get are repeated assertions by Charlie that you can't be a top athlete without dope, that only losers are clean. And at the same time Charlie is offering (on his website) to coach athletes to the top, to make them winners. The only logical conclusion here is that he plans to coach them to use dope. And THAT is why it is so alarming to see top athletes like Jones and Montgomery take up with him. They might be dirty already (I'm not naive enough to think that Ben was the only doper), but if they stick with Charlie it will have the effect of removing all doubt. Kurt Bray _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
I understand the circular argument people are making about his comments in the past and having to buy into them if you are coached by him but anyone who is familiar with Charlie and his faith in his own abilities, he is talking about everybody else's athletes. Not his own. These statements Charlie made in the past ain't all that far in the past. Consider this from an interview published online in Testosterone Nation on September 22, 2000: T: We like to joke at T-mag that the scientists administering the drugs to the Olympic athletes need gold medals of their own. Are there any clean athletes left at the Olympic level in sprinting? CF: When I testified at the Dubin Inquiry all those years ago, the information I had was that the number of athletes using performance enhancing drugs, at the Olympic level, was about 80%. The IAAF secretary, John Holt, said that my charges were wildly exaggerated and said his research showed it was only 30 to 40%, which he obviously considered to be acceptable. Whether it's 30, 40, 50, or 100% is immaterial. The dividing line is not left and right, with the drug free on one side and the dirty cheats on the other. It's divided horizontally with those above the line on the drugs and those below, perhaps being clean. T: So would it be fair to say that only the losers are clean? CF: If anyone is clean, it's going to be the losers. The irony becomes that in order for an athlete to be an anti-doping advocate he must be, as a general rule, on drugs! How else would he rise to such a level of prominence so that he would have a platform from which to speak? (end quote) So these past statements aren't from 1988. They aren't from the Dubin testimony. No, as recently as two and half years ago he was saying you must dope to get to the top and only losers (if anyone) are clean. Now you are telling me that it's only everybody else's athletes who are dirty and not Charlie's? That since this interview he has changed his mind and decided to coach clean? Why hasn't he publicly said so? And if his program is so clean, why is he even associating with dope-drenched publications like Testosterone Nation for crying out loud? Check them out for yourself - Look in the past issues and you can read Charlie's interview for yourself: http://www.t-mag.com/ This where the clean coach gives interviews? Kurt Bray _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: That starting rule
The Curt Flood case dealt with labor law, not the rules of how the game is played on the field. The PGA case was a question of rights under the ADA law and whether the rule requiring players to walk the course was legal. To have courts ruling on things like how to properly call false starts in track would, in baseball, be like having them rule on what constitutes a strike or ball. It would not remotely be the equivalent of addressing important questions of labor law. Kurt Bray Curt Flood is not a good example. His suit was regarding free agency in baseball not the rules of playing the game. A better example might be Casey Martin, golf carts and the PGA Tour. Since Curt Flood. Since when did the details of rules governing how play a sport become a legitimate subject for the courts? Kurt Bray __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
t-and-f: Charles Forest/Iraqi Athletes
I haven't listened to the NPR piece due to firewalls on my work computer. I'll have to catch it tonight at home. But I don't think that this Charles Forest is the same Chuck Forrest who starred on Jeopardy, because their last names are spelled differently. I heard from insiders who were present at the special Million Dollar Jeopardy Tournament that during the interview segment Alex asked Chuck Forrest if the internet rumors about him being a CIA agent were true. He gave some evasive answer and then during the next break he complained that this was an inappropriate question and made them re-shoot the interview segment sans CIA questions. Despite his fearsome Jeopardy reputation, Chuck Forrest was well beaten in the first round of that special tournament by Rachael Schwartz - the same woman who defeated me in semi-finals of the 1994 Jeopardy Tournament of Champions. Kurt Bray This NPR article was sent to you by J Peters ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) with the following message: An aside, somewhat in the '6 degrees' realm, Charles Forest was the Zatopek of Jeopardy many years ago, winning 5 games and the champions tournament going away. He returned once more for a super-champions tournament, and was introduced as executive of a human rights organization. (Kurt, do I have that right?) The article title is NPR : Iraqi Olympic Athletes and can be found at http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/segment.jhtml?wfId=930754 _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Charles Forest/Iraqi Athletes
Was Rachael Schwartz a dark-haired marine biologist? (I met such a Jeopardy champion once.) Dark hair, yes. Marine biologist, no. Rachael Schwartz is an attorney. Kurt Bray _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Breathing Technique?
The amount of air you can breathe in and out is NOT a limiting factor in running. What matters is how much blood you can pump to your lungs and then to the working muscles. Which is why those silly-looking breathe right nose strips are bogus. Mechanically flairing you nostrils 10% wider is going to account for only a minute increase in the amount of air in your lungs - air that was already in excess. Any benefit gained from those devices is purely psychological. Kurt Bray _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: AOY - French version
I'm surprised he made the list at all. According to the SI AOY article about Lance, the French generally have a very low opinion of him. He gets jeered as he rides by in the French countryside. They view his achievements as impossible without drugs, therefore he must be a cheating doper. Plus the French never do like Americans of any sort to come over and win their sporting events. Kurt Bray As an interesting postscript to our recent AOY thread, I thought I'd pass along the results of the 2002 Champion of Champions poll of the editorial staff of the French sports daily, L'Equipe. In spite of his Tour de France exploits, Lance Armstrong was only tied for eighth with Serena Williams. Here are the top ten. Note that they have just one list for both men and women--I believe Flo-Jo is the only woman who has ever won. 1. Michael Schumacher (Germany, auto racing)144 pts 2. Janica Kostelic (Croatia, alpine skiing)117 3. Roberto Carlos (Brazil, soccer) 85 4. Tim Montgomery (USA, athletics) 84 5. Ole-Elnar Bjorndalen (Norway, biathlon) 69 6. Ronaldo (Brazil, soccer) 65 7. Ellen MacArthur (GBR, yachting) 60 8. Serena Williams (USA, tennis)57 Lance Arrmstrong (USA, cycling)57 10. Dejan Bodiroga (Yugoslavia, basketball) 49 No Barry Bonds. No surprise. Schumacher won this last year as well, but Americans won the two years before that--Tiger Woods (2000) and Andre Agassi (1999). Bob H _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Mascot name game continues
Hmm, buzz they call it? Yes, apparently incredulity, ridicule, and derision count as buzz. I guess it's the old theory about there being no such thing as bad publicity. Kurt Bray _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: Ernst Van Aaken and longevity
I sat next to and chatted with Dr. Edell at a luncheon event about 15 years ago. He's a nice enough guy, but even then he was a total media doc - no longer practices any sort of medicine nor conducts any research of his own. He's a talking head you can hire with M.D. after his name. As I recall, he said his medical training was in Ob/Gyn. I'm not sure exactly who I'd turn to for longevity advice, but it probably wouldn't be my wife's gynecologist. Kurt Bray I think you'll find that Edell is a rather creative thinker. Check this out: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/deanfulltexttopics.cfm?ID=7722storytype =DeanQuestions From: Herb Finkelstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Herb Finkelstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:19:38 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Ernst Van Aaken and longevity But his bottom line is what sticks with me: no matter how many days/months/years you get added to your life, they get added at the end. They're the days before you die. His rhetorical question was, do you really want to spend that much more time in a nursing home? Truly bizarre that a member of a profession given to ever-more-heroically-ridiculous end-of-life treatments that often simply prolong a dying person's suffering would make such a statement. Someone ask Dr. Edell about that. Pot calling the kettle black if ever there were a case of it. Herb _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmailxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=7474SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf
Re: t-and-f: The REAL athlete of the year
I love Lance, but what Tiger accomplished this year (winning the first 2 majors) was rarer than what Lance accomplished (winning his 4th straight). Not so. Winning the first two majors (Masters and US Open) in the same year has been accomplished five times: 1951 Ben Hogan 1953 Ben Hogan 1960 Arnold Palmer 1972 Jack Nicklaus 2002 Tiger Woods Winning the least four TDFs in a row (Indurain won five) has been done four times: 1961-64 Anquetil 1969-72 Merckx 1991-95 Indurain 1999-02 Armstrong Looks to me like they are about equally rare (or common). And my prediction is that, barring injury, in 2003 Armstrong will become only the second ever to win five TDFs in a row. There is no one out there in his class. Kurt Bray _ MSN 8 limited-time offer: Join now and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialupxAPID=42PS=47575PI=7324DI=7474SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsgHL=1216hotmailtaglines_newmsn8ishere_3mf
Re: t-and-f: A little more on Marion's coach
Would suffocation ultimately lead to congestive heart failure, or is this a different story? No. Suffocation and congestive heart failure are completely different. Most people understand what suffocation is, but congestive heart failure is a chronic disease, usually in old people, wherein the heart gets weak for some reason and can no longer pump with enough vigor to keep the blood moving sufficiently well. This insufficient circulation of the blood causes some of water in the blood to diffuse out of the vessels and pool in the tissues. The usual symptom at that point is shortness of breath caused by fluid build-up around the lungs, interfering with lung function. So in that sense I suppose it bears a superficial resemblance to suffocation. The short-term treatment at that point is usually diuretics - get the kidneys to excrete the excess water that the heart is not handling. Longer-term treatment often involves heart-stimulating drugs to get more effective action out fo the heart. From what I remember the medical reports at the time, I don't think congestive heart failure played any role in FloJo's death. Kurt Bray _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: t-and-f: Shorter clarification
I agree that I think Frank Shorter is too smart a guy to somehow think that his American teammate was French, so I would tend to put that down to confusion on the part of the reporter. However, one thing that I think everyone is overlooking is that Frenn injecting a steroid into his leg (and Frank seeing it) may be perfectly innocent. Marty's original post on the topic just said it was a steroid - no mention whether it was an androgen or other illegal drug. So I'm thinking it could well have been a CORTICO-steroid (cortisone, prednisone, etc) to reduce inflammation rather than an androgenic steroid to build muscle. I'm no expert on how dopers administer their drugs, but I could much more easily envision a thrower with aching knees openly injecting cortisone into his legs for pain and inflammation relief than I could see him injecting testosterone or other dope into his leg. (Is the leg the usual site for androgenic dope injection? - seems a little odd to me). It just makes more sense to me that this is what he was probably doing, and maybe the reporter was confused over what Frank was describing. Or perhaps one or both of them failed to adequately distinguish legal corticosteroids from illegal androgenic ones. Kurt Bray As a reporter myself, I have to agree, I suspect the reporter got something scrambled, not Shorter. This was a pretty long story, and stories of this length involve lots of notes. I try to tape every interview I do, but sometimes I get caught without a recorder and have to scribble on a pad. In those situations, I will openly admit that my quotes are not absolutely 100 percent, word-for-word correct. And sometimes, even with a recorder, I just get confused. The important thing is to make sure you do not change the intent of the person you are quoting (a standard that, last time I checked, had been upheld in federal court). Now obviously, if the reporter did err here, he did not meet that standard. The reason I'm leaning toward the reporter as guilty is because I can't believe Shorter wouldn't remember who Frenn is, and that he would think he was a Frenchman. So if we can reasonably assume the reporter got that wrong, then the part about shooting steroids in the leg could be wrong, too. However, I'm stunned this would get past the Times -- an operation of their magnitude has fact-checkers, I assume, and has much higher standards than, say, the community weekly for which I work. Now if the error really was with Shorter, then he'd better check himself into an Alzheimer's clinic. Lee Nichols Austin John, With all due respect, why do you chose to believe that Frank really said this and it was not a mistake. Just because a reporter gets the quote in the paper it doesn't make it true. If the reporter wanted to retract the statement, it would appear on page 38. It really is just another story-maybe it's true, maybe not. Heck, I remember reading a story about the Ivy League going to DII. John John Sun wrote: But I am disappointed that as a lawyer in charge of an organization as important as WADA that he'd attack a guy he didn't really remember and didn't have ironclad facts about. That's the credibility issue that concerns me. Exactly. It's a bit disturbing that the head of USADA, which has so many protections in place to ensure US athletes are afforded privacy and due process in their doping cases, would openly accuse a fellow athlete of doping with no solid evidence. Then again it doesn't surprise me given USADA's spotty record. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- Lee Nichols Assistant News Editor The Austin Chronicle 512/454-5766, ext. 138 fax 512/458-6910 http://austinchronicle.com _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Shorter clarification
Well, that rule is vague enough to ban just about anything stronger than water. But how was that rule actually applied? Has anyone ever been punished for testing positive for cortisone? Has cortisone ever even been tested for? My impression is that cortisone injections are and have always been accepted as a legal (if not always medically wise) treatment for sports injuries. Kurt Bray If we want to consider perfectly innocent let's discuss the rules in effect in 1969 (and '70), a far simpler time. The rule (144:1) said simply this: Doping is the employment of drugs with the intention of increasing athletic efficiency by their stimulating action upon muscles or nerves or by paralysing the sense of fatigue. Their use is strongly deprecated not only on moral grounds but because of their danger to health. I would suggest that under that definition, you could argue that anabolics in and of themselves have no stimulating action but that corticosteroids do. In any case, the rules contained no list of banned substances. When the '71 rulebook came out , 144:2 replaced the old 144:1 and read: Doping is the use by or distribution to a compeitor of certain sybstances which could have the efffect of improving artificially the competitor's physical and/or mental condition and so agumenting his athletic performance. And a list followed which included anabolic steroids. gh _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: FW: April Fool's day at USATF Convention
I think they should name it Wind-aided or Personal Worst or maybe just Nandro. Kurt Bray Whoa... Has anyone mentioned FATSU yet? Sort of appropriate, being a fatso USATF mascot... Dan --- ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This defies belief. Go to www.usatf.org and check out the right-hand side of the home page. I think this was an early reject in the contest that Whatzit won in '92 for Atlanta. The Apocalypse is upon us... gh = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy TF @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: t-and-f: Re: NCAA brothers
How about the Mortimer brothers? And on the distaff side: Nenna and Shola Lynch? Kurt Bray _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Of Gibson and short tracks
More interesting (to me at least) was looking up at the top end of his heat and seeing that 4th was one Craig Masback, in 3:42.9. This is germane because this was a *non-qualifying* time. Obviously the tracks were indeed much shorter then. That was the year that NCAA switched from 1500 to mile (bad choice, but that's a topic for another rant another time). Wow! If that was indeed the year 'that NCAA switched from the 1500m to the mile, then I'm astonished that 3:42.9 wasn't fast enough to qualify, since that would have been a huge world record for the mile. And I knew that Craig was a talented athlete, but I had no idea Kurt Bray (who knows what you meant but couldn't resist) _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: t-and-f: Kim Gallagher
For Ben Pluknett, for Kim Gallagher, for Flo Jo: In addition to believing that those who have ended this life are blessed and happy, we also think that to say anything slanderous against them is impious, from our belief that it is directed against those who have already become our betters and superiors Aristotle From Of the Soul Quoted in Plutarch A Letter to Apollonius 27 Kurt Bray _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: t-and-f: deaths and ..... ?
The immediate cause Kim Gallagher's death may well have been brain-related, but you can be sure that the underlying cause was a general collapse of her health due to metastatic stomach cancer. She had been very ill with stomach cancer for years. Kurt Bray FloJo, Gallagher and Plucknett, all top competitors in the 1980s, all die from acute brain disorders of some type at relatively young ages. All have a common thread of, let's say, controversy, in the their athletic careers. Is there an additional hazard that we have yet to identify? Richard McCann _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: t-and-f: Re: hall of fame....
Flo's 200m win in 88. I rememerb just being floored by the time. Yeah, that was a great moment. But what impressed me more than the time was the back to back WRs. FloJo broke the WR in the semis, and then came back out an hour or two later and broke it again in the finals. The only other performance I recall like that was Edwards' back to back TJ WRs in Goteborg World Champs in '95. He broke the WR on his first jump and broke it again on his second jump. I was fortunate to be in the stands on both of these occasions. Kurt Bray _ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
Re: t-and-f: Meanwhile back at the hall of fame....
I now can't remember if it was the 3K or the 1500 in Helsinki where Decker outkicked the two Soviets to the line (with Kazankina, I believe, making a dramatic but vain dive) I think you are referring to the 1500m. I had the good fortune to attend that meet in Helsinki, and Mary Decker outkicked Soviets in both races. She also ran from the front in both races, and in the 3K she battled Kazankina down the stretch. Decker found another gear a pulled away with a surge. The West German Brigette Kraus passed Kazankina for second place after Decker had put her away. A few days later in the 1500m final, all three Soviet runners took turns in the last 200m challenging for the lead from the front-running Decker. Mary held off the first two bids, but the top Soviet 1500m runner of the moment, Zamira Zaitseva, passed Mary off the final turn and pushed into the lead. Mary didn't give up but dug down and battled back, step for step, all the way down the stretch passing the Russian just before the line. Zaitseva desperately dove in an attempt to hang on to the win but failed and painfully skinned her face on the track surface. This was one year before Mary's prickly personality became publicly known, and many years before she tested positive, so her reputation was unsullied in those days. So that Little Mary had twice turned back the Big Bad Soviets caused the crowd to go absolutely nuts. The wild cheering went on and on. The crowd was still buzzing 20 minutes later. Those were the days Kurt Bray _ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
t-and-f: The Passing of Bob Hayes
One of the great ones is gone: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2002-09-19-hayes-obit_x.htm _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
t-and-f: The Greatest Ever....
With the passing of Bob Hayes, I'm reposting Justin Clouder's analysis from 1997. Justin writes: The greatest 100m Runner Of All Time Quite a subject heading, and a considerable claim to make about any athlete, especially in an event with as great a history of remarkable athletes and characters as the men's 100m. However, among track field historians, writers and statisticians there is remarkeble agreement about the greatest male 100m runners of all time. Two names always seem to come to the top of the pile - Carl Lewis and Bob Hayes. In my view, although Lewis would rack up more points in terms on titles won, times run, longevity etc, there is no doubt that Bob Hayes is the most awesome sprinting force of modern times. This piece is a summary of his career highlights, in the same mould as my earlier piece on Tommie Smith. Hayes was born on 20th December 1942. He was a massive man - a fraction under 6'0 tall and over 190 lbs. He was not a classic stylist by any means - it was once written of him that he doesn't so much run a race as beat it to death. His first sport was US Football - he won a scholarship to Florida AM University on the back of his football prowess and after retiring from TF went on to an equally glorious career playing for the Dallas Cowboys. Most of Hayes' sprinting was done while at college, and it was all fitted in around the college football season! He first burst to the fore with a 100y time of 9.3 in a heat of the NAIA in Sioux Falls on 2nd June 1961, aged 18 years 5 months. This equalled the World Record but was never ratified as 22 days later Frank Budd ran the first ever 9.2, and Hayes' mark was forgotten. Early in 1962 (on 17th February) Hayes equalled Budd's mark with a 9.2 of his own at Coral Gables. This mark was not ratified as the starting gun was of the wrong calibre (!). On 12th May that year he ran 9.3, at the SIAC champs, a meeting for black college athletes. It was reported that the timekeepers all recorded times in the 9.0-9.1 range, but the time was rounded off to a less inflamatory 9.3 (the ame time he had run in both heat and semi). Hayes was told by his coach that because all the timekeepers, judges and athletes were black, no-one would have believed a 9.0 or 9.1 mark and they would have been a laughing stock. Hayes went on to win the AAU title from a strong field including Harry Jerome, Paul Drayton, Ira Murchison and Frank Budd. Also in 1962, Hayes lost the only races he would ever lose at 100m (he never lost at 100y). He ran 10.1 during a European visit in the summer of '62 but also lost very narrowly to Jerome, although some observers claimed the judges had given it to the wrong man. Hayes was also beaten earlier in the year, by Roger Sayers in the NAIA 100m final, having missed three weeks of training recovering from a virus. 1963 started with two blistering long sprint WRs - 20.5 for 200m in Pointe a Pitre on 10 February to equal the World Record, and a 20.5 for 220y (worth 20.4 for 200m) at Coral Gables on 2nd March. Following this came two landmark short sprint times. First, on 27th April, Hayes became the first man to run 100m in under 10.0, with a wind assisted 9.9 at the MSR in Walnut beating Henry Carr and John Gilbert, both of whom ran 10.0w). Then, at the AAU in St Louis on 21st June he ran 9.1 for 100y in his semi final, the first such time ever. He repeated the time to win the final, albeit wind assisted. 1964 started with a bang, with a 9.1 for 100y and a blistering 20.1 for 220y in Coral Gables on New Year's Day. Neither was ratified as a WR because there was no wind guage. He then went indoors and ran a WR equalling 6.0 for 60y five times. Among these was a performance in New York auto timed at 5.99. It is still uncertain if this is a reliable auto time, but if it is, it has never been beaten to this day, at 55m or at 60y. Second on that day was rising star Charlie Greene, who would go on to a bronze in the 1968 OG. Moving outdoors again, Hayes twice more ran 9.1 for 100y, at Orangeburg on 18th April and at Nashville on 2nd May. Neither was ratified as a WR - a recurring theme during Hayes career. He then won the Olympic trials 100m in 10.1 and placed third in the 200m (he gave his spot up for WR holder Henry Carr, who went on to win in Tokyo). On to Tokyo in October, the zenith and the final act of Hayes' brief career. He breezed through the heats and quarters in 10.4 and 10.3 respectively on 14th October. The next day, at 10am, he produced an amazing semi final run of 9.91 with a 5.3m/s wind behind him. This was the first time anyone had beaten 10.00 with auto timing, and it remainded the fastest ever run until William Snoddy got on the end of an 11.2m/s wind in Dallas in 1977 and ran 9.87. No one ran faster in the Olympics (aside from Ben Johnson) until, incredibly, the three medallists in Atlanta, 32 years later! If it is hard to fathom the quality of this run, what he
t-and-f: Tim and Marion
A pretty good article in USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/2002-09-16-cover-montgomery_x.htm Quote from Tim: I was a track star and lived like I was a rock starMarion is rich and trains like she is broke. Also the article suggests that perhaps Tim Montgomery DOES (or used to)read the list. Marion advises him to Get off the internet Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Why not just enjoy?
How, specifically, does the latest discussion kill our sport? I don't think it exactly kills the sport, but it certainly detracts from it. It detracts from the sport to have pretty much every World Record followed by a but, or a however, as in say Tim Montgomery set a new world record of 9.78 seconds however, thanks to the presence of favorable tailwind and a suspiciously fast reaction time, track experts rate this performance as actually no better than the 15th best. The opinion of insiders is often consulted for articles in the general press and for TV, and we often do see them add some of our own same buts and howevers to their pieces. No one has any figures on lost attendance due to this, but it's reasonable to conclude that it does the sport no good to constantly downgrade the magnitude of its own magnificent achievements. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Why not just enjoy?
I just did an informal survey of several people around my office: Question-Did you know that the 100 meter record was recently broken?-most answered yes Question-Were you aware that there is an internet chat group that has been dissecting the record and what, if any, impact will this discussion or, for that matter, any discussion and/or quotes about the credibility of the record have on your impression of track in general?-most answered wtf? I'm sure that the people you asked were not list members and probably never heard of the list. But track enthusiasts' general obsession with putting qualifying statements around all great performances has definitely crept into the news media and affects how the results are reported. Here's an example from the CBC: http://cbc.ca/pcgi-bin/templates/sportsView.cgi?/news/2002/09/14/Sports/montgomery0814 Note their emphasis on the tailwind and how it was barely legal. Same for US coverage: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/2002/09/14/world_record_ap/ IMHO, if we track fans weren't so constantly prating about wind readings and reaction times, the media coverage fed to public wouldn't be either. And we'd all get to enjoy these wonderful achievements for what they are: wonderful achievements. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Interview with Lasse Viren in Sacto Bee
story also says blood-doping stories cropped up in '75 when in reality they had first been attached to Juha Vaatainen after his double at the Euros in '71, and were then attached to Viren in '72. Story also says that blood-doping was illegal, which it is now, but it wasn't in 1972. Heck, '72 was the first Olympiad in which STEROIDS were illegal, for crying out loud; blood-doping was not yet on the rule book radar. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
t-and-f: Abe Lemons on Coaching Track
Long-time college basketball coach Abe Lemons died recently at age 79. Known for his witty one-liners, today's obituary in the LA Times had this: Track and field is the easiest sport to coach. All you have to do is tell them to keep to the left and hurry back soon. He also said he didn't believe in team rules, because as soon as you draw up a list of team rules some kid will go out and steal an airplane and then say that it wasn't covered in the rules. Likewise, he said that he didn't believe in having team curfews because it's always your star player who gets caught. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Brussels--U.S. RESULTS Reminder
Once again, for those of us hoping to watch the telecast pseudo-live, please do not reveal any results in the subject line of your posts to the list. Despite your excitement, please refrain from putting things like: Suzy breaks MEN'S world record in the 1500m!!. Just say something nice and subdued like Van Damme Results. Thanks. Kurt Bray The Van Damme Memorial will be shown on ESPN2 tonight from 10pm-11pm(West Coast), 1am-2am(East Coast). If you don't want to wait, check A HREF=http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/sportsextra/; http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/sportsextra//A for live BBC radio coverage...for entries and results, go to A HREF=http://www.memorialvandamme.be/Practica.htm; http://www.memorialvandamme.be/Practica.htm/A. Here are the expected paces for tonight's races. El Guerrouj has talked about world records all season long, but it sounds like he's serious about tonight's effort in the 1500. Another world record attempt will take place in the women's 1000-meters(Mutola). Men's 800m Kiptoo 400m 50.0 1500m Kisilu 800m 1:49 Lelei 1000m 2:17 El Guerrouj wishes to reach 1200m faster than his Monaco time of 2:45.78, i.e. quicker than ever 3000m Mutai 4 laps 3:58 Keino 2000m 4:59 10,000m As things stand now it is Richard Geemy, Joseph Kosgei and Enock Mitei aiming to reach halfway in 13:15 or so, with the hope of a final time in the 26:40s 3000m Steeplechase The pace will be designed to help Tahri attack the European record Women's 1000m Vriesde has been asked to run 3x 29 second 200m segments 1500m Komyagina 400m 60.5 Komyagina 800m: 2:03.5 3000m They're said to be attempting to break Szabo's new European record TIME SCHEDULE (Brussels is 6 hours ahead of the East Coast, 9 ahead of the West Coast) 2002 VAN DAMME MEMORIAL Brussels, Belgium August 30, 2002 TIME SCHEDULE(6 hour time change) 18.00 Pole Vault Men Javelin Women 18.10 4 x 100m (Bis Run) 18.15 1000m Girls (-17y) 18.22 1000m Boys (-17y) 18.30 1000m Men (-21 y) 18.38 1000m Women (-21 y) 18.45 10.000m Men 19.15 OPENING CEREMONY 19.30 400m Hurdles Menh 19.35 3000m Women 19.40 High Jump Women 19.45 Javelin Men 19.50 100m Women 19.55 Triple Jump Men 20.00 1500m Women 20.10 100m Men 20.20 3.000 Men 20.32 100m Hurdles Women 20.40 400 m Women 20.50 800m Men 21:00 200m Women 21.08 3000m Steeple 21.20 200m Men 21.27 1000m Women 21.35 1500m Men GOLDEN LEAGUE POT OF GOLD 5 down, 2 to go) Marion Jones Ana Guevara Hicham EL Guerrouj Felix Sanchez _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC
I think the IOC would agree that cross country *could* be contested entirely on snow or ice, but the point is that their policy is that a sport always *must* be contested on snow or ice to get into the Winter Games. The fact that XC's rules do not require a snow covered course disqualifies it. Kurt Bray I know Fred that you live in Florida, but you can run a cross-country race entirely on snow and ice. Once I went to compete in a cross-country ski race but it had rained the night before then froze. The director changed it into a running race over the same course. My shoes never touched ground. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Fred Finke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Shawn Devereaux [EMAIL PROTECTED]; ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED]; track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:04 AM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC Actually I investigated getting XC as an olympic event 4 years and even got a response from the IOC. The reason that it will NEVER be possible (as I was told) is that all winter sports must take place on snow or ice. *** Fred Finke, LDR Men's Coach Selection Coordinator --- O Men's Team Leader, World Cross, Morocco, 1998 -- ^_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- \/\ *** -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Shawn Devereaux Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 5:47 PM To: ghill; track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC how about indoor track at the winter olympics? --- ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Ed and Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:19:12 -0700 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Interesting Tidbit from the IOC X/C should be added to the winter Olympics, absolutely. Not sure why there hasn't been more of a push for this. Nice simple 12K and 4K distance for both men and women with team medals only but with qualification only by the team the same way some other team sports qualify. Have the worlds after the Olympics the same way that I believe several other sports do. Basketball should also move to Winter to ease the crowding of Summer (and make Winter even more popular). Unfortuately, the IOC retains its caveat that all Winter sports must be conducted on frozen water. This was their recent response to basketball suggestions. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Why on the street?
I see it so many times that I really wonder if they are being told to do so by some running book or magazine. Has anyone seen anything published anywhere telling people to run in the street? Is there any logical reason? Like running up and down curbs is dangerous or unhealthy for some reason? Like they think they have the same road rights as cyclists? Are they just too lazy? I just don't get it. It comes from years of reading things like this: http://www.drpribut.com/sports/spshin.html Wherein the good doctor advises (about shin splints): Downhill running can aggravate this problem and should be avoided. Too long a stride can also delay healing. Most of all, DO NOT RUN ON CONCRETE! I read another podiatrist who estimated that 80% of all cases shin splints could be avoided simply by running on asphalt instead of concrete. I have no idea where the 80% figure comes from, but if you are battling running injuries, such warnings and stats are easily enough to put you off the sidewalk and out into the street. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: running bad for you? (was street)
Garry says: I've long thought that it might be well possible to make a case that more people have incurred more longlasting health problems from running than from taking steroids. Maybe so. But the health problems caused by running are mostly mechanical, while those caused by steroids are mostly metabolic and physiological. A serious case of the former could end up requiring joint replacement surgery; a serious case of the latter could end up requiring chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Concrete VS Asphalt (was: Why on the street?)
Mike says: The only asphalt I ever saw that was significantly softer than concrete was on country roads when I ran in college. The only other asphalt I ever saw that was softer than set concrete was the asphalt just before the steamroller went over it. Here's a simple experiment you can try. I did it myself a few minutes ago to confirm what I'd heard. Find a flat area that has both asphalt and concrete - say a parking lot with a sidewalk next to it. Stand on the concrete and drop a golf ball held out at shoulder height. It will rebound about up to your waist. Now step over and do the same on the asphalt, and you will see that bounces only up to about a little over your knees. Conclusion: there IS a noticeable and measurable difference in the hardness of the two surfaces. Add this difference up over and over again though hundreds of thousands of footfalls, and it could make a real difference in injury risk. I certainly agree with those who say that dirt is even better (the ball hardly bounces at all on dirt), and I do the majority of my own running on dirt for that very reason. But if you are running in an urban setting and you have only the choice between asphalt and concrete, take the asphalt. Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Eastern block athletes in the 1980s all used sterodis and everyoneelse was Judy Garland?
What in the world makes you contend that whatever scrutiny should be exercized for Marita Koch (with a huge tally of excellent times over many years) should not be applied when looking at valerie Brisco-Hooks, who sparkled for one season but little before and none whatsoever after? Well, one thing that makes me contend that Marita Koch's marks should be scrutinized was a cute little gem that came to light in the Stasi files a few years ago - namely , a letter from Koch to the East German sport authorities complaining that her teammate Barbel Wockel was getting better dope and bigger doses than she was. I don't know anything about V.B-H.'s habits, but in Koch's case, her letter speaks for itself. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Webb poll
35.44% - out of the sport, never living up to the hype 30.66% - US record holder at sub 3:47 19.27% - a 3:55 miler 14.63% - Olympic medalist Choices are a bit puzzling. Obviously 2nd and 4th choices are not mutually exclusive. And since he is already at least a 3:55 miler, you could say that the first and third choices are not mutually exclusive either. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
RE: t-and-f: Boulami Steeple WR
Please have mercy on those of us hoping to watch the meet pseudo-live tonight on ESPN2 and do not give away any results in the subject line. Thanks. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Kenyans
They must be Kenyans from West Africa Conversely, David Krumemnacker must somehow be of east African descent, either that or his recent hot middle distance performances did not happen - or so we're told. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
RE: t-and-f: Kenyans
While most of Kenya's celebrated distance runners are Kalenjin (group of tribes including the Nandi, Terik, Kipsigis...), there are a few exceptions. Most notably, John Ngugi (5 CC world titles and 1 Olympic gold in the 5k) is a Kikuyu, the most populous ethnic group in Kenya. Wilson Waigwa, Kenyan star miler from the mid and late 70s, was also not a Kalenjin. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: more on Kim Collins test positive- story
Games officials announced that Collins wouldn't face punishment because the substance, used in asthma medication to make breathing easier, wasn't performance-enhancing. He was guilty only of not declaring it. If it's not performance-enchancing and it's not illegal, why is anyone or any organization worried about it? Why test for it? Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: back when men were men
I recall an old magazine cigarette ad from the 30s or 40s that claimed that smoking their brand actually *improved* your aerobic performance. It featured an Olympic gold medal swimmer, Johnny Weissmuller I think, claiming that his victories were aided by smoking these cigarettes, that unlike other brands didn't decrease your wind. Kurt Bray (groan) was looking at a copy of the 1948 NCAA Champs meet program today. Back cover is an add for Chesterfield, the baseball man's cigarette. Pictures of a half-dozen studs, prominent among them Musial Dimaggio w/ a fag hanging otu of their mouth, Ted Williams holding up a pack (hopefully that means he didn't really smoke and was just a cheap whore picking up a few bucks). gh _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: time to go off list
We're headed down that road again. As I pointed out earlier, for any new list members, if you want to discuss this issue, first, go to the t-and-f archives and research the many emails sent back and forth on this issue, then second discuss this off list. If we can only discuss issues that haven't been discussed before, then we better shut down the list. Because in its nine years of operation pretty much every possible aspect, angle, and issue in track and field has been discussed on the list. And discussion-wise, were are actually in pretty good shape. By contrast pity the poor classicists - they've been discussing the same old Greek and Latin texts with no new material to speak of for the past 15 or so centuries. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: a note to my Canadian brethren
The main problem I (and the Canadian brethren) have is with the treatment Ben received and *continues* to receive, compared with that given to other nabbed cheats. I agree that Ben received harsher punishment than most other drug cheats. But he was a repeat offender - a bad apple that clearly needed to be expunged from the sport. That there were/are other bad apples doesn't make him look any better. And I applaud the efforts the Canadians took to clean up the sport in their country, and I certainly wish the US and other countries would follow suit. But having said all that, the main problem I have from this and other discussions are the repeated efforts by some (usually Canadians) to rehabilitate Ben's marks. If we all agree he cheated, then why do we keep bringing up his 9.79 as though it actually meant something? Ben's 9.79 is no more legitimate than if he had ridden a motorcycle down that track. So give up on it, guys. Ben and his marks are gone, and (thank goodness) they are not coming back. Let's focus on cleaning the rest of the cheaters and their marks out of the sport too and forget about Ben. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: a note to my Canadian brethren
I can't speak for others, but I believe the prevailing opinion is that his marks were no less legit than most others regarded as valid. Well, if the other marks are no less legit then you strongly imply that all the other top sprinters are cheating too. And if you choose to take this cynical they-all-must-be-on-dope approach then you not only take down say Maurice Greene and Carl Lewis along with dirty Ben, but you take down Canadian hero Donovan Bailey too. He was WR holder not all that long ago you know. I thought the virtuous Canadians, with all their soul-searching and national catharsis of the Dubin Commission, had solved their dope problems. No? Personally, I prefer to believe good things about Bailey, Lewis, and Greene until some evidence demonstrates otherwise - as it abundantly in Ben's case. That's why I leave Donovan's WR on the list, but Ben's does not exist. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Greene sets career record at Rome
Actually, he shares the sub-9.8 record with Ben Johnson. Actually, he doesn't. Cheaters' marks don't count. Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Greene sets career record at Rome
When the record books are wiped clean of *all* such marks, not just selective, token scapegoat ones, then I'll agree. And what is your evidence that Greene's mark is one of the such marks? When Greene or anyone else test positive or confesses they'll be known cheaters too. And then their marks won't count - just like Ben's. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Greene sets career record at Rome
So, let's have the names out in the open, and let's make them not count. On this we can agree. I'm for full disclosure and for wiping out all marks put up by cheaters, whoever they may be. I only ask that we do it based on evidence rather than rumor or cynical suspicion. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Aussie legend 'supports drug use'
What would Clarke do- institute no-notice out-of-comp testing only at locations above 7000 meters, and let everybody at lower altitudes dope to their heart's content? 7000 meters? That's over 21,000 feet. With the possible exception of a few Sherpas, everyone lives at lower altitudes. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Guerrouj challenges Marion Jones to 400-metre dash
Barring injury, how does it hurt his Market Value? Male vs. female athletic contests are a no-win situation for the male. If El G wins everyone shrugs and says So What? You beat up on girl. Big deal! And if he loses everyone says: You lost to WOMAN for crying out loud! If he wins he loses. If loses he loses. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Elite Track in Astrodome
Oh...Astroturf came about because they couldn't grow grass there. So is there a plan for that, too? Perhaps a removable field like in the new Sapporo Dome? When it first opened back in the 60s, the Astrodome had nice natural grass. The dome had clear glass windows that permitted the grass to grow with no problem. The problem was that the artsy pattern of the windows overhead made if very difficult for outfielders to see (and hence catch) fly balls. The dome was good for grass but bad for baseball. The solution was to paint over the glass, which solved the fly ball problem but killed the grass. Hence the necessity for the invention of Astroturf. Since it's not a baseball park anymore, they can simply scrape the paint off the glass and grow natural grass again if they want to. No special new technology is needed. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: George Orton
Canada did not send a team to the 1900 Paris Olympics, so he went with the U.S. squad; in the days before athletes competed for countries, he ran in the colours of the University of Pennsylvania; won gold medal in 2,500-metre steeplechase and silver in 400-metre hurdles. The lists I have showing him winning bronze in the 400m hurdles, not silver. Also, on the same lists his nationality is shown as USA. Did he hold dual citizenship, or was he somehow counted as an honorary American since he showed up with the US team? Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Webb going pro
I worry about Webb going pro now not over any questions of money nor even educational opportunity - he's an adult now and can judge those things for himself. My concern is that he not harm his development by rushing to jump to a higher level of the sport when he has not yet mastered his current level. Things worked out great for Tiger, but he was already beating the crap out of all the college boys. If Tiger had been getting cuffed around at the college level the way Webb has, I would have thought his going pro after one year would have been a mistake too. If the problem is that Webb was unhappy with Michigan or his college coach, I would have advised him to transfer to another school for a year and perhaps then, depending on whether he was winning at the college level, think about the pros. In any case it's too late now. I wish him great success. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Full Response
I can categorically deny that false starts are routinely shown on taped shows. The only time they would be shown is when they become an integral part of the story of the event. So then why did we see one yesterday in the women's 100m? The athletes got down in the blocks, came to the set position and somebody in lane 1 or 2 jumped. They all came up, trotted around a bit, and started to head back to the blocks, we cut to a short taped interview with Marion while everyone gets reset, we then have a fair start. So what was so integral to the story about that particular jump? It certainly was far less important that the two false starts that put the Clown Prince out of the men's race and which were not shown (thank goodness!). Why did we need to sit through it in the women's race? To me it just looks like one of those taped false starts that I'm told are never shown. Kurt Bray Bring on your criticism if you will, but please get your facts straight before you do. The tape shows what it shows. Fact-wise there is nothing to quibble about. K.B. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Drugs and America's game
An article in the LA Times about a week ago quoted former big league star Jose Canseco as saying that about 85% of major league baseball players use steroids. Jose himself never admitted using, but back in his wild Madonna-dating days he was busted for driving his Jaguar 120 mph and they found steroids when they searched the car. Something certainly has changed in baseball. It used to be a remarkable achievement for anyone to hit 50 home runs in a year. That would happen once every 5 or 10 years. Now every year there are a bunch of guys hitting 50 and the top one or two guys hit 70. Kurt Bray Masback ought to laminate this article in plastic and show it to anyone in the media who asks him about drug use in track. Martin J. Dixon wrote: I didn't know what idiocy to pick out of this article but here goes: Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking, Bonds said when told doctors have suggested that widespread use of steroids in baseball -- 10 to 50%, by some estimates -- may cause liver, kidney or heart problems. What players take doesn't matter, Bonds said. It's nobody else's business. The doctors should spend their time looking for cures for cancer. It takes more than muscles to hit homers. If all those guys were using stuff, how come they're not all hitting homers? http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20020521/287815.htmlqs=steroids%20bonds -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarxô 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000) _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: 1980 Olympic Decathlon Stamps???
You can find out about almost anything on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=1352384724 Kurt Bray Today I received a package in the mail with seven 10 cents USA stamps on it. Each of these 10 cent USA stamps has an athlete on it throwing a javelin. What I found odd is that the caption states Olympics 1980 Decathlon. Are these new stamps? Are those extremely old stamps that someone finally used? I'm just curious if someone has insight about these stamps honoring the 1980 Olympics Decathlon, since the U.S. boycotted these games in the former Soviet Union. Paul Nisius _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Junior nonesense
This is a very good point. Take this situation: I know a set of twins that used to run track and one was born at 11:53 pm on Dec. 31st and the other was born at 12:07am on Jan. 1st. Does the second twin miss Junior status because she was born minutes later? Well, I can tell you that come tax time the following April, the twins' father would be able to claim a deduction for only the 11:53 baby and not the 12:07 one. Come to think of it, this not the only similarity I've noticed between the thinking at the IRS and the IAAF. Perhaps they draw from a common pool of bureaucrats. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Regional Qualifying (long)
Isn't that half the problem with US distance running? We've got people running around running 3:40, 1:47, 13:35 thinking that it's something special. Contrasts that with the sprints and hurdles at the NCAA's and you'll start to get an idea why we're so far behind on the world scene. Whether it's the old qualifier system or the new regional system, sprinters and distance runners both qualify for NCAAs by the same method, so its hard to see how that's a key difference that somehow explains something about their relative levels of excellence. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Fw: recipe, cakey lumps of tastless gunk
Yeah, the only thread bigger than the cookie thread is the recurring discussion over nobody saying anything about track. If all those who are inclined to post complaints about the lack of track talk would post something about track instead, the problem would would not exist in the first place. Kurt Bray What's really remarkable is that there have been more posts regarding this hoax than there were regarding Mt. Sac, the upcoming Cardinal Invite or even the Penn Relays. Steve S. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Dan O'Brien/Alan Webb
In a separate piece about Alan Webb there's some speculation he won't return to collegiate running for Michigan after this spring and instead sign a big shoe contract and run professionally. Hey, I'm as big a Webb fan as the next guy, and it's clear he is a huge talent, but aren't notions of turning pro a little premature for someone who was beaten back into 9th place in his first and only college track race? Seems to me he has a little more learn about how to beat the college boys before he takes on the big dogs on the pro circuit. Kurt Bray (sorry if you get two of these - first one didn't seem to go through). _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Dan O'Brien/Alan Webb
That may well be his strategy, but the sports world is littered with the human wreckage of athletes who grabbed the chance while they could but in the end couldn't cut it, or got injured, or otherwise failed at the pro level and ended up a few years down the road with neither the money nor the college degree. It's certainly true that his worth to shoe companies will sharply drop if he keeps coming in 9th in his college races. But it seems to me that, especially in view of last weekend's performance, any shoe company with half a brain willing to sign him now will likely have the contract laced with all kinds of performance clauses that will deny him much of the money should he continue to bomb. And even if he doesn't mind throwing away the educational opportunity, it still might be a good idea in terms of maturing as a runner to get the upper hand with college boys first before diving into even deeper waters. And besides, IMHO, NCAA Champion is a worthy title unto itself - not something to be thrown away lightly Kurt Bray Kurt, maybe he is thinking he should grab the chance to get a shoe contract before his profitability declines after a bad performance or two. One race may not effect his worth... but what if he bombs a couple more times... he is still riding on 3:53... he SHOULD take the loot. He can still train in Michigan, go to school, etc... but instead of peaking for NCAAs he would be peaking for WCs and European races. Bernard Lagat goes to grad school... doesn't seem to be hurting him. Wislon Kipketer was a grad student in Denmark when he set the WR in the 800. Marrius Bakken goes to college and has run about 13:08. He can do everything he is doing now, with less of a course load at school, get a degree (in 5 or 6 years), and train with his current teammates. He just can't race at NCs. Big deal. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
t-and-f: Boston Marathon Results
Men 1 R. Rop 2:09:02 2 C. Cheboiboch 2:09:05 3 F. Kiprop 2:09:45 4 M. Hussien 2:09:45 5 L. Bong-Ju 2:10:30 6 E. Chebet 2:10:40 7 S. Bor 2:11:39 8 G. Kebede 2:11:43 9 L. Fonseca 2:11:49 10 S. Guerra 2:12:28 Women 1 M. Okayo 2:20:43 Course Record 2 C. Ndereba 2:21:12 3 E. Alemu 2:26:01 4 S. Yungjie 2:27:26 5 F. Sultanova 2:27:58 6 B. Genovese 2:29:02 7 N. Olaru 2:30:26 8 M. Tagami 2:32:00 9 G. Karlshoj 2:35:01 10 Y. Komatsu 2:35:34 _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: a Title IX thought
Another obvious answer: Girls do not play football at the high school level. There is no pool of skilled and eager women football players. Colleges would be starting from scratch. Kurt Bray A couple obvious answers: 1) Football is expensive. Lots of equipment, large rosters, high insurance costs, etc. Not many schools will foot that bill without the possibility of offsetting revenue. Add in the cost of needing duplicate football facilities for men and women. Doesn't seem likely. 2) It's difficult enough to get large numbers of college women to play conventional sports; I doubt there would be sufficient numbers to field full squads at more than a small handfull of schools. David Dallman wrote: Probably a stupid comment from a European, but why aren't women encouraged to play football? Then you could equalise the numbers this way. They wouldn't need to draw in big crowds, just participate, because as we are told, it's just the numbers of male and female which are counted. After all, women didn't use to play soccer at all, now it's accepted. David Dallman _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
RE: t-and-f: Olympic DQ's
It is supposedly made to address anemia in Kidney dialysis patients rather than cancer patients How anemia, and stimulating the production of RBC's, in each case differs is beyond me right now The new stuff (Darbepoetin) is a slight modification of good old EPO It has the same protein backbone as EPO but with modified sugars attached to it - designed to increase its hang time in the blood so that it doesn't have to be given so often It seems to me that this modification would make it much easier to test for, as those skiers in Salt Lake City found out to their regret, because it is no longer identical to the natural endogenous substance This same as natural characteristic, while wonderful for clinical uses, has hampered the development of effective tests that can distinguish the EPO your kidneys made from the EPO you bought at the gym Both drugs are approved to treat dialysis anemia, and Darbepoetin is also approved for cancer treatment induced anemia, although EPO has also been used off label for that for a long time local newspaper It stated in no uncertain terms that Amgen had fully developed EPO by 1983 It made no mention of when it was available as a prescription drug This is an error by your newspaper (error in a newspaper? Shocking!) EPO could not possibly have been fully developed by 1983 nor even could it even have been available underground back then, because the gene from which all this recombinant EPO is made was not discovered until 1985 It's all documented in the scientific literature if you care to look EPO did not become widely available in the US until it was approved by the FDA which was on June 1st, 1989 Between 1985 and 1989 there was only stuff available for clinical trials and whatever might have been stolen out of labs for dishonorable purposes Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messengermsncom
RE: t-and-f: Olympic DQ's
From what I've read of performance enhancing drug use, it's not at all uncommon for athletes to experiement with truly experimental drugs to get that extra edge So something that was developed by '83 was probably in RD by at least '80 and may have been making the rounds that far back Not a chance in the case of EPO As I said in the previous post, the EPO gene wasn't even discovered until 1985, so any date before that just isn't possible You'll have to look to some other drug, steroids perhaps, to point the finger at back in those days Interestingly, the Scandinavians have been measuring and keeping track of the hematocrit of elite cross country skier at major championships since 1987 Their data shows that as recently as the early 1990s the skiers hematocrits measured BELOW normal It wasn't until 1994 that they really started climbing - suggesting EPO use They've been climbing ever since So in that sport at least, the data suggests that EPO use didn't take off until about 8 to 10 years ago You can read a summary of their scientific study at: http://wwwncbinlmnihgov/entrez/queryfcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=10755280dopt=Abstract Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobilemsncom
Re: t-and-f: NCAA Regionals
Regionals puts an entire season on the line on one day Sounds kinda exciting to me Sort of like the Olympic Trials - an important meet where you need to perform or you won't be at the big dance Just the sort of do-or-die excitement that spectators like Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorermsncom/intlasp;
Re: t-and-f: TF and winter sports
Ed said: Also, I was surprised that not much was made of the presence of the two black track men on the winning U.S. bobsled team. Maybe it's because they didn't actually win. The Germans did. I suppose that being the first African Americans to win Winter Olympic silver medals just doesn't have as much cachet as the first African American (Vonetta Flowers) to win gold did a few days earlier. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: Now if more people had balls like these, esp in MLB, NFL, NHL,NBA, etc
It's also ironic that in those same Seoul Oympics an American boxer (whose name escapes me but recently was mentioned again during the pairs figure skating fiasco) was denied a gold medal even though it was said he clearly defeated the South Korean boxer in the final. Maybe it was karmic retribution that the speed skater was DQed. His name was Roy Jones. I attend the games in Seoul in '88 and got to witness that bout in person - and a bigger hometown robbery I never did see. Roy beat his opponent like a drum for the three full rounds only to somehow be declared the loser. It wasn't even close. If I'd been the Korean boxer I'd have been ashamed to accept the medal. The first hint I got that the fix was in was shortly after the third round when I noticed Korean journalists scurrying around and looking over the shoulders of the judges as they marked their score cards and then ran away literally jumping for joy. The memory of that is one reason why I find the current Korean officials indignation over Olympic judging rather amusing. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: More learned from Winter Olys
Hmmm, US does not understand metric??? Watch ski jumping (which is SOOO COOOL) and you see nothing but metric measurements. NO CONVERSIONS found here whatsoever!! When shown in relation to what others are jumping, meters make sense, as its just an arbitrary number anyway True enough. If you are satisfied merely to have the American viewing public know who is leading, then meters are just fine. However if you want them to also have a sense of how far the leader (or the distantly trailing Americans) actually jumped, you better tell them in feet. (And the Swiss champ's exuberance aside, I didn't find the event all that cool. It seems quite repetitive to me. With no Eddie the Eagle in there, it was just one nearly identical jump after another - for hours.) Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: More learned from Winter Olys
If they can't sense that 8.72m is better than 8.65m by .07m (hell, show them a picture of how far it is with nice computer generated graphics) than the human race has no hope of surviving. I'm sure the vast majority of American TV viewers could easily understand that 8.72m is .07m farther than 8.65m. Just the same as they could understand that 8.72 parsecs is .07 parsecs farther 8.65 parsecs. What they don't have a sense of is how far 0.7m, or 8.72m, or 8.65m or any other number of meters (or parsecs) actually is. 28 feet 7 inches would be far more meaningful to them than 8.72 meters. Sorry, but for better or worse, that is the language that is spoken in the US. Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Virtual head to head competition
I was impressed with one aspect of the ski coverage on TV last night. NBC overlayed the video of a previous skier on top of the performer and thus giving the appearance of head to head competition. Yeah, I thought it was pretty cool too. But it occurred to me that they had to resort to gee-whiz technology in order to provide an illusion of what track has always provided for real: head to head competition. No need to go back after the race and reconstruct on which part of the course Viren passed Prefontaine, because everyone saw it as it happened. I realize that we don't even use a split screen for track meets, but the idea of using this technology for track meets is interesting. For the field events maybe, but for races there is simply no need. Kurt Bray _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
RE: t-and-f: Reuters version of USATF-Rogge story
Gerald says: an athlete MUST know everything about any vitamins or supplements they take, even if the label does not indicate that a harmful substance is in it. How are most athletes, who are living on the ragged edge supposed to be able to afford to investigate every supplement they take? When they call the manufacturer and the manufacturer states unequivocally that it does not contain banned substances, what more can most athletes afford to do? I agree that it is not feasible for athletes to personally perform chemical analyses on the pills they take, but if they apply a little common sense about which pills they choose in the first place they can probably keep themselves out of trouble. To begin with, recall that the dietary supplements industry is not regulated by the FDA the way other drugs are. Congress took away their power to do so in 1994. So the ONLY thing an athlete has to go on is the competence and honesty of the manufacturer in ensuring that a pill contains exactly what the label says and nothing more. There is no government watchdog here. YOU ARE ON YOU OWN. So if people taking pills buy them from mainline manufacturers, who because they also make other more traditional medicines are accustomed to working up to FDA standards, they are likely to get what the label says. These companies already have good reputations and good processes and procedures in place in their factories. On the other hand if they are buying things with names like Muscle Blaster 5000 made by Shady Sam's Laboratories and sold in the back room of the body building club, they are certainly headed for trouble - no matter what the label says. Most of the supplements probably fall somewhere in between. But if I were an elite athlete with a career on the line, I know on which side I'd prefer to err. Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: the value of numbers (was: Human Hydroplane
I think the IAAF is open to ideas to help countries such as the U.S. promote the sport. The mile at the USATF meet (and thus the mile at virtually all U.S. meets) would be a good start. Except where their own revenue is involved, I'm not so sure that the IAAF is all that eager to help the US and especially the USATF. I know that Dick The Dick Pound is IOC, but there seems to be be a hefty streak of his brand of America bashing in the IAAF as well. Kurt Bray _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: High School events added to USA indoor championships
Most of the crowd in Atlanta it seems came for the high school events, the place would empty out after the high school events were over. If it is the HS events that brings out the crowd, doesn't this argue in favor of including them? I'm not a big fan of the HS events at US Champs either, but I'd prefer to put up with them rather than see no crowd in place of of the usual sparse crowd. My guess is that USATF includes them precisely for this reason. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
RE: t-and-f: National Indoor
I have found the rudeness reputations of New York and even Paris to be largely myths. I found people in both cities to be very polite and helpful (with one exception of a waitress in a Manhattan coffee shop who treated me like I was the stupidest person on earth when I asked her for a clarification on a menu item). But I have noticed while walking in Manhattan or running in Central Park that there is definitely a different etiquette in operation: in New York pedestrians and even runners for some reason avoid eye contact with people coming the other way. Out here in San Diego if you were out running and failed to acknowledge a another runner coming the other way, you would be regarded as stuck-up. Kurt Bray the myth about the rudeness of the people of New York must have started with rush hour subway traffic. I admit, between 4:30-6:00 on a summer evening after a long day of work... to be herded onto a subway packed with people is not exactly what you want to do. BUT, considering these circumstances, I would say that New Yorkers actually have a huge amount of patience to be able to go through this ritual day in and day out without exploding. From: John Dye [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: John Dye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: T-and-F [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: National Indoor Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:18:21 -0500 Not to pick on NYC, which is one of my favorite cities on the planet, but you natives need to realize not only that ALL big cities are intimidating to much of the populace, but also that New Yorkers' unparalleled rudeness coefficient (I guess they'd call it survival) and brusque manner rarely leave an outsider feeling particularly welcome. (Hey, I don't mind, just paint a target on me!) gh I have to disagree strongly with this sentiment and aim at GH's target. I have visited New York several times a year in recent years and have found that either I have changed or New York has changed. The reputation for rudeness is a myth. I have always found the city exciting and safe, and the people very courteous and friendly. I always ride the subway to the Armory or Van Cortlandt Park. New York is my favorite big city, and I grew up in small town Indiana (Plymouth, pop 5,280 -- the number of feet in a mile, coincidentally.) with a fondness for Chicago, and now live in Ballmer, hon. _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Re: Re: t-and-f: Pre-league records
Absolutely it should still stand if the league is still the same basic entity with just a few teams added or removed. Obviously leagues can change their names and take other structural measures that would make it a grey area, but simply removing a team or two shouldn't make the records invalid. This has me thinking - what should be done about records for the WAC and Mountain West conferences? The Western Athletic Conference (WAC) started some time ago (in the 60s I think) consisting of 8 schools - all in the Mountain time zone. In the 70s Arizona and Arizona State left to join the PAC 8, boosting it to PAC 10. To fill in the gap the WAC added a 3 schools - Hawaii, San Diego State, and UNLV. A decade or so later the WAC went on a growth binge and added a whole bunch of far-slung schools, essentially doubling in size. It soon became apparent that this bloated conference was too big and unwieldy, so a group of schools, consisting of all the original WAC schools except UTEP and all of the first round of added schools except Hawaii, broke away to form the Mountain West conference. So the Mountain West conference membership is almost identical to the what the WAC was through much of the 70s and 80s. But the WAC itself still exists with all these other new schools. What would would you make of old WAC records from the 70s? Are they still WAC records, or should the Mountain West claim them? Could both conferences claim them? It's an interesting case. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Keino did have excellent range - he ran the 5000 in Tokyo '64. But this in no way detracts from his reputation as a miler or 1500m man. I was a high school kid at the time, but my memory is that Keino was regarded, by the public at least, as predominantly a miler. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe for a while he was the second fastest miler ever, behind Ryun's 3:51. Also recall that Keino took the silver medal in the 1500m in the same Olympiad in which he took the gold in the steeple. So clearly those two events are not (at least in Keino's case) incompatible. Kurt Bray Was Keino predominantly a mile/1500 runner? I recall having read a biographical sketch a while ago that indicated he was running 5 and 10Ks and essentially moved down to the 1500 for the 68 Olympics. That is not to say that he did not run the 1500 throughout his career, but he bears some resemblance to Aouita and other runners with a big range and, to that extent, is not the best example to make the point that a 1500 specialist can move up effectively to the steeple. Bill Bahnfleth At 11:38 PM 1/7/2002 +, Kurt Bray wrote: It is questionable what Keino's achievements tell us about the prospects for a 3:38 runner of today, since it is difficult to directly compare times across eras in a meaningful way. My point was that it is possible for a talented miler to also become a top steepler. Kurt Bray If Kip Keino is an example of a 1500m runner moving up to the steeple, it doesn't do much to advance the argument for 3:38 types having any more success in the steeple than they would in the 1500. A 3:38 1500 is equivalent to about 8:13-8:16 in the steeple. Any steepler who can run in the 8:05 range or better can easily run 3:34.90 (probably considerably faster). Floyd Highfill -Original Message- _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _ _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Mark Rowland - 3:52 miler moved to the steeple and won a silver in '88 in Seoul. He had to work bloody hard on drills and flexibility to make the transition, but he proved that it can be done if one applies oneself to the task at hand. It's not common but, sure, it can be done. Recall that Kip Keino won an Olympic gold medal in the steeple. I believe he was a miler of some note. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
It is questionable what Keino's achievements tell us about the prospects for a 3:38 runner of today, since it is difficult to directly compare times across eras in a meaningful way. My point was that it is possible for a talented miler to also become a top steepler. Kurt Bray If Kip Keino is an example of a 1500m runner moving up to the steeple, it doesn't do much to advance the argument for 3:38 types having any more success in the steeple than they would in the 1500. A 3:38 1500 is equivalent to about 8:13-8:16 in the steeple. Any steepler who can run in the 8:05 range or better can easily run 3:34.90 (probably considerably faster). Floyd Highfill -Original Message- _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Re: t-and-f: what's a world-class sprinter?
Okay, so after all this discussion, what actually is the definition of world class? I've thought about this and decided that my own working definition is something like: A world class athlete (for any event) is one who pays very little attention to what the Olympic or World Champs qualifying A standard is because he/she has no trouble achieving it. If you are looking for last chance meets in order to get into the OG or WC, you are not yet world class. And if there are any NFL guys who have no trouble achieving the 100m A standard, then as far as I'm concerned, the glib announcers can go ahead and say they have world class speed. Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: Famous People...
Not any TFN columns I've ever read. I think I recall Runners' World talking about Cooper running a marathon once, but if he were a 250-foot javelin thrower under that name we'd know it, and i just don't think it's true. I agree that it probably isn't true - that would be a hell of a throw. But I am fairly certain that Alice Cooper is not his real name! Alice's real name is something like Vincent Furnier (not sure of the spelling of his last name). Kurt Bray _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
Re: t-and-f: American men marathon times at 28 year low
There is an interesting tidbit in these numbers. Note that the Olympic year in which the US performed the absolute best it ever has in the OG marathon (1972-- 1st, 4th, and 9th), it had the fewest number of fast guys to work with. Now I realize there are several factors affecting these stats, such as the the first running boom coming after 1972. And I'm certainly not suggesting that somehow our chances are actually better with fewer fast guys, but I think these numbers do demonstrate that it is possible to achieve world-class respectability, and perhaps even dominance, with a small, talented, motivated, highly-focused group of elite athletes. Kurt Bray 1972 = 12 1973 = 12 1974 = 22 1975 = 40 1976 = 35 1977 = 46 1978 = 95 1979 = 165 1980 = 187 1981 = 218* 1982 = 191 1983 = 267 1984 = 165 1985 = 99 1986 = 115 1987 = 96 1988 = 65 1989 = 63 1990 = 75 1991 = 93 1992 = 64 1993 = 58 1994 = 54 1995 = 59 1996 = 40 1997 = 27 1998 = 36 1999 = 47 2000 = 27 2001 = 20 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: Sotomayor Tests Positive
I haven't seen many details nor even much reporting of this, but according to a short piece in the LA Times a day or two ago, recently retired HJ WR holder Javier Sotomayor tested positive for nandrolone last July. The test results were just now being publicly released. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: Best all-time milers by state ?
Others that got relagated to the steeplechase: Ben Jipcho, Filbert Bayi, Jurgen Straub, Moses Kiptumsomeguy, John Gregorek. Not to mention Kip Keino. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: Attention Track Statisticians!
It turns out that gravity on earth is not uniform. There is small but measurable variation in the force of gravity from place to place. Meaning that objects such as athletes and throwing implements can weigh less in one place than in another. The causes of this variation are not well understood. The good news is that the areas of highest and lowest gravity both happen to be under the ocean, however there is still considerable variation over land masses, meaning that, for a given level of effort, in some areas throwers will throw farther, jumpers will jump farther/higher, and runners will run faster too. I'm surprised that track statistician are not already all over this - diligently invalidating records, calculating conversion factors and tables, and adding the letter G next to any low gravity-tainted marks still on the books. Get busy boys! You can read about this and see a map of gravity variation at this NASA site: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/earth/features/watkins.html Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Jon Drummond arrested in marijuana bust
Punishment seems awful harsh. In Massachusetts he would be asked to donate a pint of blood, given a slap on the wrist and lecture school children about drugs! Why would the people in Massachusetts want to have their medical blood supply muddied up with blood from people convicted of owning, and presumably using, illegal drugs? Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: NYT nonsense re marathon record
Scroll down for the bottom line: Thus, the world record women?s times are predicted to equal, and thereafter better, those of men on the 27th of April in the year 2021 in a time of 2 hours, 4 minutes and 26.17 seconds. The paper in Nature was even worse. As I recall, it extended the slopes of the improvement lines and showed that when the women's WR and men's WR were equal, they would both be running the marathon at a rate of speed faster than the current 800m WR. It didn't seem to occur to the authors that there might be a leveling off of improvement, perhaps even an asymptote out their somewhere. It was mindless extrapolation at its best(worst). Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: Jesse Owens #1 and #2
Three world records in a 45 minute period of time is pretty hard to argue with. Carl Lewis did duplicate the results (in terms of gold medals), but he did not set three world records, nor did he win them in 45 minutes, but rather over a series of days. Wait a minute Jeff, you are conflating your Owens' performances. The three world records in 45 minutes performance was in a college meet, not the Olympics. Owens' 4 gold medal Olympic performance came over several days - just like Lewis's did. Those two performances are pretty much equal. A performance that I'd nominate as perhaps better than either Owens or Lewis is Zatopek's 3 golds in 1952. With no relay teammates to help carry the load, nor any one-LJ-for-the-gold event that Lewis enjoyed, the sheer excellence and exertion required to win the 5000m, 10,000m and marathon all in one OG is perhaps beyond all others. And if we want to look beyond track and field (as we have already done in talking about basketball, baseball, and bike racing), another one that contends for greatest performance ever is Eric Heiden's sweep of all 5 speed skating gold medals in 1980. He won every event from 400m to 10,000m. Now I know that due to mechanic of skating vs running, this is not equivalent to winning the 400m through 10K in track, but the factor that it does share with such a performance in track is amazing feat of Heiden, a middle distance guy, moved up and kicked the butts of the distance guys at their specialty events, and at the same time he moved down and destroyed the sprinters in their events too. Incredible. Kurt Bray Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: Mayor of Marathon to block marathon due to rowing row
See story at: http://www.ekathimerini.com/news/content.asp?aid=103436 Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: The Sports Curmudgeon
From Frank Deford's column: The Sports Curmudgeon has concluded that of all the things top athletes do, the one thing they do the worst is pass the baton in track relays. A quarterback hands off successfully 30 times a game to a running back with fat linemen trying to massacre him. Track runners can't pass a silly baton three times in a row. A little more intensity please, runners. Or brains. You can read the whole piece at: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/deford/news/2001/10/11/deford/ Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: Dope and dopes
IMHO, the poison is so deeply rooted that only intervention by the powers that be can help revitalize what was once an exciting site to visit. I would remind list members that the list charter ALREADY limits drug accusations. The relevant portion of the charter reads: Damaging accusations, speculations, and misinformation presented as factual are prohibited. Example, Joe Runner's rapid improvement means he has taken banned drugs, is not acceptable. Accusations and speculations must be presented as personal beliefs or opinions, such as It is my opinion that Violators of this guideline will have their subscription suspended, and must provide a retraction before they may rejoin the list. It has not always been as strictly enforced as it might have been, but the rules do already exist. And some who wanted to talk about nothing but drugs have indeed been suspended under this rule (anyone remember Tony Craddock?). However, it would be hiding our heads in the sand to try to simply prohibit drug talk altogether. Sorry to say that it's a significant part of modern elite track and field. Simply banning drug talk would be futile in the face of the constant drip, drip, drip of positive drug tests we currently have among athletes. But perhaps it is indeed time for little retrenchment in the area of avoiding unsubstantiated and damaging innuendos and accusations. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
