Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 15:27, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> Rice yoghurt -> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2020/02/06/are-rice-yoghurt-drinks-new-drink-craze
>  
> Fruit Tea -> https://yifangfruitt.com/


are yoghurt drinks... question mark

Let’s discuss these when there is an exclamation mark.

They confirm bubble tea in the article.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 07:53, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  wrote:
>> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am 
>> from, and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food 
>> restaurant
>
> I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
> McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  Candle-lit quarter
> pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?
>
> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
> a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
> service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
> is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
> chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
> or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
> while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
> matters far more to me.
>
> But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
> whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
> no seats at all.

(Sorry for bringing this thread about cukiernias further off-topic.
This is also related to the parallel discussion that started off being
about bubble tea places.)

This is getting faintly ridiculous. It is all good and well to use
British English in OSM, but let's not extend it to mean that we have
to limit ourselves to definitions of places as they exist in parts of
the UK.  Per guidelines set out by you, a lot of establishments mapped
as cafes in OSM aren't cafes (Starbuckses, Costas, and anything even
remotely similar), and a lot of establishments mapped as fast_food are
actually cafes (McDonald's and anything similar). I'm half-expecting
to hear that a Starbucks is actually a bar with drink:coffee=only.

At some point we have to draw a line and say that OSM tagging of
almost a million objects is unlikely to be changed, regardless of what
the words strictly mean in British English.

McDonald's is an extremely common type of gastronomic service in
American-like-culture world: you place an order from a fixed menu,
food is prepared from pre-made supplies, possibly being warmed or
grilled but not a meal fully cooked to order, there is normally no
table service, there is usually casual seating in the establishment,
and takeaway trade is also quite high. There is no way
amenity=fast_food is "special crafted for McD".

Here's a local shawarma place near me, serving wraps or plates with
assorted vegetables, sauces, and meats, assembled in front of the
customer from prepared ingredients (links lead to images hosted on
Google servers):
- there is some non-fancy seating and there is also a lot of takeaway
trade: https://goo.gl/maps/ve2YXgi29z8jstdH6
- ingredients are pre-chopped, meat is cooking on a vertical
rotisserie, nothing is fried in a back kitchen:
https://goo.gl/maps/PxUAyt4UXXT4wmW27

Here is an American import in Manchester that operates on the same
principles: https://goo.gl/maps/HKxevHp8rpceQw8RA ,
https://goo.gl/maps/xZv2cH5LZZJ3QNaQA

How should my shawarma place be tagged per British English? Is it a
cafe even though it doesn't have a back kitchen and doesn't serve
cooked meals? A fast_food? But it has seating. Surely not a candle-lit
restaurant. shop=food perhaps? amenity=fast_food_with_seating?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 21:02, bkil  wrote:
> 
> However, I'm not quite comfortable with someone adding a specific
> combination of top level tags to convey a new kind of function
> regardless of how similar the synthesis result might sound like unless
> the meaning of the independent tags can stand on their own on
> the given POI and be valid


+1, the combination only works if the place is both, not if the combination 
would be intended to be a new type which is neither


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 17:34, Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
> 
> Those that do serve wine should be tagged with
> drink:wine=served. Something that I do bother about in Europe.


the drink:wine=* tag is used 3265 times, half of them with amenity and the 
other half with shops, but there are more than one million restaurants in 
OpenStreetMap, i.e. in general we do not explicitly tag whether a restaurant 
serves wine, you will have to know the local habits if you’re interested in 
wine.

Here’s the drink:wine map, its used mostly in Europe as it seems:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/drink:wine#map


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Phake Nick]

在 2020年6月29日週一 20:12，Andrew Harvey  寫道：

> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 21:17, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:18, Andrew Harvey 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like
>> amenity=drinks or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to
>> shop=beverages which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which
>> you walk around and add to your shopping basket).
>> >
>> > The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine.
>>
>>
>> I don’t believe it is helpful to cluster all kind of places where you can
>> primarily find something to drink in a generic tag. Bubble tea is very
>> specific, and unless you want bubble tea you would not want to find these
>> when you are thirsty. We already do distinguish places to drink with
>> various tags like bar, cafe, pub, and it does not seem likely that we will
>> deprecate these, so a amenity=drinks or shop=drinks would not promise more
>> consistency or ease of tagging. We also already have shop=wine,
>> shop=beverages and more. I would make bubble_tea a first level tag
>> (or maybe a subtag for pastry/sweets etc.)
>>
>
> So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea,
> bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's
> too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of
> those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.
>
> The same way we just have amenity=restaurant and don't have
> amenity=pizza_restaurant etc.
>
> The same way a place that mostly does chocolate drinks that you sit down
> at and also does desserts is amenity=cafe + cuisine=chocolate, even if
> there is no coffee sold.
>
>
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But we do have tags like shop=confectionery , and the different between
confectionery and bakery is just of the same nature as the different
between bubble tea and regular drink shop.

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

I think there would be room for such POI specialization in Hungary as
well (menza/cafeteria, kifőzde/étkezde, csárda, kisvendéglő, fogadó,
kávéház/kávézó, bisztró, pince, romkocsma).

Although, I may not be catching the gist here, based on the concept of
not including values in key names, should it be
restaurant:type=it:ristorente;it:pizzeria instead? Or is this a
translatable key, so we could add the equivalent
restaurant:type:hu=étterem;pizzéria
in there as well along all other translations? That sounds a bit
redundant.

But basically yes, that could work, *if* we could find something to
specialize under. If we specialized sit-in "cukrászda" under
"café/kávéház", should we also create a "virtual" category under café
named "real kávéház"? That sounds like a bit involved.

Specializing the takeaway "cukrászda" under something close to
"pastry" may or may not work, depending on whether non-artisan pastry
shops are common outside Hungary and if they could lead to confusion
or not.

We also have places whose names implicate "mixed" function around
here, like "Étterem & pizzéria", "Étterem & cukrászda", "Cukrászda &
fagyizó", "Kávéház & cukrászda", "Kávézó & pékség", but in most cases
it is easy to determine the main function on a survey, most of the
time even from their website (most often restaurant, cukrászda,
cukrászda, cukrászda and café respectively, although the last one
could actually turn out to be indeed both a café and a bakery at the
same site).

However, I'm not quite comfortable with someone adding a specific
combination of top level tags to convey a new kind of function
regardless of how similar the synthesis result might sound like unless
the meaning of the independent tags can stand on their own on
the given POI and be valid.

For example I've seen something in Austria that looked like a
cukrászda being tagged amenity=café + shop=bakery (probably based on
the name). In general, if a data user that does not interpret this
combination specially only wanted to search for cafés, returning this
could be misleading as mentioned in the previous mail. If, on the
other hand it wanted to find all bakeries (to purchase bread or kifli
for example), the user would again be disappointed because such places
most often only keep fancy bakery products, not staple ones.







On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 4:09 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 28. Jun 2020, at 15:58, bkil  wrote:
>
> We are leaning towards being dissatisfied with tagging as either
> shop=pastry or amenity=cafe.
>
>
>
> today I think I would prefer a generic descriptive term as the main tag (e.g. 
> shop=sweet_bakery) and have subtags for specilizations or product categories.
>
> Another (general) issue are “mixed” places like “Bäckerei Konditorei Cafe” or 
> “Bar Pasticceria Gelateria Tavola Calda”, as the individual classes often 
> tend to use the same key.
> One way I am paying tribute to these is the
> restaurant:type:it tag, which gets multiple (slightly “normalized”) values in 
> the local (here Italian) language:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait
>
> These can be quite useful for people speaking the language and familiar with 
> the local expectations, and might eventually be transformed to more specific 
> detail tags later (not holding my breath for it).
>
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

Yes, "we" refers to the Hungarian mapping community who we discussed this
topic with a few times in the past, although we're still waiting for
others from the neighboring area to also chime in.

We'd be more than happy if we could have input from as many cultures
as possible.

In Hungary, coffeehouses (and cafés) generally do not make _any_ of
their desserts, while a cukrászda makes _almost_ all of them (if not all).
Hot meals are also not expected in a cukrászda, while some fraction of
cafes around here do offer a time limited daily lunch:menu=* (they
usually order such meals from external kitchens), though as mentioned
it would be plausible for a bigger coffeehouse to have a kitchen where
they could cook something simple like an omelette.
However, I would be surprised if coffeehouses were common in the UK which
do not serve any coffee.

The mapnik icon of a café is a coffee cup. The primary motivation of
us wanting to go to a café is to have some coffee, tea, a soft drink
and perhaps something to go with that.

The icon of a cukrászda could be some kind of dessert (unfortunately
the piece of cake is taken by shop=pastry). The primary motivation of
going to a cukrászda is to have some nice desserts, and perhaps some
liquid to go with that - so that's just the corollary.

The use case is clearly different, and the two can rarely be
substituted for one another. For example, if you plan to go out on a
date in a cukrászda, but it suddenly closes the day before, you won't
reschedule the event to a café - you will reschedule to another
cukrászda. If you planned a date to a Korean restaurant and you have
to reschedule it similarly, the Mongolian restaurant would be a
fulfilling substitute for most people.

As highlighted in our notes, people usually don't go to a cukrászda
because they are hungry - they usually have something to eat at a
restaurant or at home beforehand.

Placing custom orders is only an option - a defining feature of a
cukrászda is that they keep a buffer of some of the most popular
desserts inside a chilled see-through counter that you can choose
from based on visuals (also a unique feature - this is rare in a café).

Of course some of the desserts can only be prepared afresh, so one
can sit down with some salty appetizers until it is ready. In Hungary,
we don't quite have other kinds of "pastry shops" as an alternative, so
it's really not a "30-minute side trip".

craft=patisserie doesn't seem to be an established tag. Also this is
not something like a beekeeper where we can ring the doorbell anytime
to get some honey. Due to health regulations, a "cukrász" (~something
like pastry cook) is not allowed to make desserts at home - she must
operate a kitchen for this purpose. Then for the same reason, no
customers or guests are allowed in the kitchen, there must be a place
where they can be served (at a cukrászda in person or perhaps by delivery).

We did consider possibilities for mapping the kitchen as well (maybe
with the tag similar to what you suggest, or the more established and
related craft=confectionery), but I personally don't find that of
priority for the average map user, we'll see later on.

This itself is a major difference compared to a bakery, because baking
simple flour based breads and simple baker's confections doesn't
command the same number of permits or expertise (and they usually
don't need a chilled counter either).

It is understandable that there will always be corner cases and that
mapping is not 100% science, but this doesn't mean we couldn't even
try to get things right. People may or may not be looking for cafes
that much, because they are pretty common, but a cukrászda is a much
more rare and valuable POI compared to that.

Indeed most single cukrászda does not feature every kind of dessert that
I've listed, but they usually feature many items from multiple categories,
(usually many times the number of possibilities compared to a café
that purchases only the most popular few kinds of desserts from a
cukrászda for offer) and if we only listed the most representative
upper level categories individually, it would still leave lots of
room for mapper error.

Overall, adding cuisine=* (5-10 items listed, some non-pastry) +
shop=pastry + artisan=yes may be a kludgy workaround for a
cukrászat/cukrászda where you can't sit in, but this reasoning would
make shop=confectionery redundant as well. But we still need a
solution for the sit-in kind which is clearly an amenity.

So we'll be thinking about some mapping options and will also discuss
it later on.

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Re: [Tagging] 回覆﹕ Re: Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Steve Doerr]

On 27/06/2020 17:02, 德泉 談 via Tagging wrote:
In previous discussion we haven’t clarify that “cafe” is a place 
serving coffee drinks or a place providing seat for the consumer to 
have something like coffee or donut.


A cafe in British English is a place serving cheap hot meals eaten on 
the premises. The Oxford English Dictionary refers to it as 'a class of 
restaurant', which is probably slightly euphemistic for a working-class 
restaurant (except that 'restaurant' implies something grander so 
'eating-place' might be better). They tend to serve things like ham, egg 
and chips or sausage, beans and chips, while in the morning they do a 
roaring trade in cooked breakfasts. There is a subcategory called 
'transport cafe'. They're not any different from other cafes except that 
they are in places where lorry drivers park up.


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Paul Allen:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging 
>  > wrote:
> 
> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am 
> from,
> and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food 
> restaurant
> 
> 
> I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
> McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  
Me too.
>Candle-lit quarter
> pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?

I do expect restaurants to offer wine. Around here at least.
But I have also mapped restaurants in e.g., Jordan and Morocco where you would 
not
expect restaurants to have wine. Those that do serve wine should be tagged with
drink:wine=served. Something that I do bother about in Europe.


> However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
> sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
> had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
> a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
> service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
> is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
> chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
> or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
> while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
> matters far more to me.
> 
> But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
> whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
> no seats at all.

I do not think it is just for McDonalds.
Here in Copenhagen there are some Pizza joints that have a couple of small 
tables,
and sometimes a few more outside in the summer. They have no service, cutlery,
napkings or anything and are mostly used by customers waiting to pick up a 
pizza. Put
once in a while you see people eating there.



-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[德泉 談 via Tagging]

I don't think that use tags like cuisine=japanese or italian is a good idea for 
cafes.


在 2020年6月29日 星期一 下午9:26:30 [GMT+8]， Andrew Harvey 寫道：
> Sorry I wasn't aware of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drink, that 
> makes a lot of sense.
>
> As an aside, it might make sense then to use drink:*= as the kind of drink 
> (chocolate) and cuisine=* to refer to the style/way it is prepared.
>
> So a place that does the thick and rich italian hot chocolate would be 
> amenity=cafe + cusine=italian + drink:chocolate=designated (designated means 
> it's actually signposted as a chocolate cafe rather than just happening to 
> have chocolate on the menu but not the main item).

I believe that drink:*= is an useful tag for users who really want to know what 
the coffeehouse provides. For example we can add drink:fruit_tea=yes on 
Starbucks so those who don't like to drink coffee can still go there.

But it's hard to use drink:*= in the iD presets, we can only add a column 
encouraging mappers to add them.


在 2020年6月29日 星期一 下午9:26:30 [GMT+8]， Andrew Harvey 寫道：
> A place that does japanese style matcha drinks would be amenity=cafe + 
> cuisine=japanese + drink:matcha=designated.

And It's too hard to define all the localize cuisine. I don't know how to tag 
Starbucks in such scheme.

-Tan

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 14:27, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:21, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> As an aside, it might make sense then to use drink:*= as the kind of drink
> (chocolate) and cuisine=* to refer to the style/way it is prepared.
>

If it's a place only selling drinks, and all the drinks are prepared in
that same
style, then maybe.  If it sells food as well as drink then what does the
cuisine
apply to?  If it sells Italian-style coffees and English-style teas, what
then?
Anyway, cuisine applies to food rather than drink.  How about
drink:style:*=*?
So drink:style:coffee=italian.  Clunky and ugly (and possibly unnecessary)
but
it covers all possibilities.

So a place that does the thick and rich italian hot chocolate would be
> amenity=cafe + cusine=italian + drink:chocolate=designated (designated
> means it's actually signposted as a chocolate cafe rather than just
> happening to have chocolate on the menu but not the main item).
>

Um, are we talking about cafes in Europe (coffee and maybe light snacks)
or in Britain (filling meals)?  I'm having problems fitting that
combination into a
British English definition of cafe.  Does not compute.  This is the sort of
thing
found in many British cafes (often served all day long, despite the name):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_breakfast  If I wanted one of those and
was led
to a place selling nothing but chocolate, I'd be very disappointed.

I'm starting to agree with bkil here, to the extent that we need some way of
tagging what in British English is called a coffee house ot coffee shop.
The problem being that they can also serve light snacks and are on
the same spectrum as cafes (British meaning) it's just that the menu is
more limited.  Also places that start out selling coffee and cakes may
retain "coffee shop" or "tea shop" in the name but expand their menu until
they are effectively cafes.

See https://www.facebook.com/pg/adelescafeCilgerran/about/
It started as a tea room and coffee shop (and still describes itself
that way) selling "cakes and light bites."  It later added cooked
breakfasts and the title of that "About" page is "Adele's Cafe."  It
can't make up its mind what it is.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:21, Paul Allen  wrote:

> Why cuisine=* rather than drink:*=yes for chocolate drinks?  I consider
> cuisine
> to apply to food, not beverages.  Soup and ice cream are edge cases, but
> chocolate
> drinks don't count as food as far as I'm concerned.
>

Sorry I wasn't aware of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drink, that
makes a lot of sense.

As an aside, it might make sense then to use drink:*= as the kind of drink
(chocolate) and cuisine=* to refer to the style/way it is prepared.

So a place that does the thick and rich italian hot chocolate would be
amenity=cafe + cusine=italian + drink:chocolate=designated (designated
means it's actually signposted as a chocolate cafe rather than just
happening to have chocolate on the menu but not the main item).

A place that does japanese style matcha drinks would be amenity=cafe +
cuisine=japanese + drink:matcha=designated.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:45, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> what I wrote was that I believe subtagging is an option, but that it will
> / should not be a subtag for a (yet to introduce according to you) tag
> shop=drinks
>
> We will not get main tags for purple yoghurt or fruit tea, because there
> aren’t such places (at least I have never heard of places specializing in
> these, unlike bubble tea, which apparently is a thing).
>

Rice yoghurt ->
https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2020/02/06/are-rice-yoghurt-drinks-new-drink-craze

Fruit Tea -> https://yifangfruitt.com/

Only just scratching the surface with all the local variations of drinks
around the world.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[bkil]

Actually we have a very similar problem with tagging a "Tejivó" in
Hungary (literally a "place to drink milk"). It's conceptually very
similar to a café (coffeehouse...), but the coffee offering isn't that
pronounced (other than using their own milk). Rather, they serve a
huge variety of dairy based products, all artisanal made from their
own organic milk, including drinks, cheese, sandwiches, pastry and
desserts. I think people prefer to go there for their artisanal
desserts. Although, I guess they do keep in stock some non-artisanal
products as well.

This all makes them much closer to a traditional "cukrászda" than a
"kávézó", although the difference is moot as we don't have a way to
tag "cukrászda" anyway at the moment.

Here's their menu:
http://cserpestejivo.hu/menu.php

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:45 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 14:12, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> >
> > So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea, 
> > bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's 
> > too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of 
> > those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.
>
>
> what I wrote was that I believe subtagging is an option, but that it will / 
> should not be a subtag for a (yet to introduce according to you) tag 
> shop=drinks
>
> We will not get main tags for purple yoghurt or fruit tea, because there 
> aren’t such places (at least I have never heard of places specializing in 
> these, unlike bubble tea, which apparently is a thing).
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 14:12, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea, 
> bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's 
> too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of 
> those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.


what I wrote was that I believe subtagging is an option, but that it will / 
should not be a subtag for a (yet to introduce according to you) tag shop=drinks

We will not get main tags for purple yoghurt or fruit tea, because there aren’t 
such places (at least I have never heard of places specializing in these, 
unlike bubble tea, which apparently is a thing). 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 13:12, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

>
> So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea,
> bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's
> too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of
> those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.
>

+1

The same way a place that mostly does chocolate drinks that you sit down at
> and also does desserts is amenity=cafe + cuisine=chocolate, even if there
> is no coffee sold.
>

Why cuisine=* rather than drink:*=yes for chocolate drinks?  I consider
cuisine
to apply to food, not beverages.  Soup and ice cream are edge cases, but
chocolate
drinks don't count as food as far as I'm concerned.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 11:56, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:41, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
> >
> > You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian
> cafe. I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.
>
> because it seems the term „cafe“ in Britain has a different meaning than
> it has in Germany, Austria, Hungary (likely some Austrian influences) and
> other places. At least this is what Paul tells us


Now you have me checking my sanity!  Again.

Yep.  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe_(British) a cafe (British
English)
is a place to get real, nutritional (but often very greasy and unhealthy)
food.  Known
in the US as a diner or greasy spoon.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasy_spoon
it should not be confused with a European cafe, which primarily serves
coffee and
light snacks (which takes us into Hungarian cake territory).


> (I admit I found it more than strange that cafe could be a suitable term
> for a McDonald‘s, Mc Cafe aside)
>

I found it even more bizarre that Jake Edmonds referred to McD as a fast
food
restaurant.  But apparently that is the state-of-the-art term in the US for
places
like McD.  I'd have categorized McD as a fast food cafe (or fast food diner
in US speak).  Of course, US marketing embiggens everything it touches so
that everything sounds more grandiose than it actually is,

All of which indicates our tagging of food establishments, especially cafes,
may be in a big mess.  McD is a restaurant selling fast food, or a cafe
selling fast food, or a special category that sells fast food but may or
may not have seats.  Cafes sell full meals or just coffee and cakes.  Not a
good situation for a world map.  Especially as it's too late to retag
everything.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 21:17, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:18, Andrew Harvey 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like
> amenity=drinks or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to
> shop=beverages which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which
> you walk around and add to your shopping basket).
> >
> > The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine.
>
>
> I don’t believe it is helpful to cluster all kind of places where you can
> primarily find something to drink in a generic tag. Bubble tea is very
> specific, and unless you want bubble tea you would not want to find these
> when you are thirsty. We already do distinguish places to drink with
> various tags like bar, cafe, pub, and it does not seem likely that we will
> deprecate these, so a amenity=drinks or shop=drinks would not promise more
> consistency or ease of tagging. We also already have shop=wine,
> shop=beverages and more. I would make bubble_tea a first level tag
> (or maybe a subtag for pastry/sweets etc.)
>

So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea,
bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's
too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of
those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.

The same way we just have amenity=restaurant and don't have
amenity=pizza_restaurant etc.

The same way a place that mostly does chocolate drinks that you sit down at
and also does desserts is amenity=cafe + cuisine=chocolate, even if there
is no coffee sold.
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what Yellow 
> Pages is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.

Yes, I've been wondering why we keep adding streets and POI to OSM, I
thought that's what Google Maps is for.

Now seriously, OSM has a great advantage of not favoring only
motorists and that the schema (and its POI set!) can be extended based
on demand - by the people, for the people. This clearly sets the two
aside and it has been one of the top arguments I use when I call for
supporting OSM (but see also: tracking, offline usability, ...).

Why keep data together in a database if you could get the same
information from randomly scattered sources? Clearly a database
carries value - it is protected by EU database rights as well (they
are probably protected in the UK as well _somehow_).

Surely I'm not saying that we should pour everything into OSM. That's
why we have outside links to Wikipedia and Wikidata. But the most
basic information must be present for each POI (=point of public
interest): it's position (making OSM a geo-database) and something
that carries an identification, like it's name, contact:website with
more information and the type of POI, possibly for the benefit of
foreigners or if it can't be inferred from the name, or if multiple
things with the same name can be found at roughly the same position.

If we already add a type, why can't we make it right? Why not use such
a taxonomy that makes sense, enabling interpretation for both locals
and internationally? It's not like I advocate adding dozens of useless
extra tags - I'm advocating replacing an ill-defined or ill-fitting
word with another word that fits the type better. This doesn't carry
that much of a database overhead. Now compare this to if we always had
to list the full menu of a place so searching could be made operable.
This would also be a nightmare from the perspective of keeping the
data up to date as discussed in some previous threads.

It is considered best practice to tag the type of POI in such a way
that people (and machines) are allowed to understand the basic essence
(primary purpose) of a given place just by looking at the semantic
tags (so minus the name and strapline).

I'm still not sure how we should tag a cukrászda around the world and
I haven't made a concrete suggestion for this yet, but I'm positive
that users are looking for this and deserve the right to be able to
search for it _somehow_. Mappers deserve the right to be able to tag
what they see on the ground. People wasting time searching for
workarounds to tag a curkászda means that they care enough. Why should
users again waste more time when they are trying to use the data that
mappers have scrambled on purpose?

From a perspective of local knowledge, I had to point out the
workaround of using amenity=cafe + cuisine=* for many years now to
well experienced OSM editors with thousands of edits around the world,
because they wouldn't have otherwise thought of this (but then they
also disagreed with this concept). How would I then expect a novice
mapper or a navigation user to have figured this out then? This also
shows that in the minds of people familiar with the concept, a bakery,
a café, a cukrászda and a sweets shop are all very different things.
Hence after all these years, I came to admit that I was wrong and this
workaround doesn't work, so I stopped recommending it. Sometimes we
have to admit that we were wrong and move on to the right direction -
this is what agility is about.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 9:05 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Sun, 28 Jun 2020 at 18:51, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
>
>> Me too.  A cukrászda is definitely not a cafe in my opinion. A cukrászda 
>> surely offers a wide variety of self-made sweets, probably coffee too. A 
>> cafe, tagged with cuisine=cake, probably has a limited selection of cakes 
>> (from unknown source).
>
>
> So one offers home-made cakes and the other may offer home-made cakes
> (the few cake-only cafes I'm aware of around here offer home-made
> cakes) or may not.  I'm not sure that merits a different value of main
> tag.  They both sell cakes.
>
>>
>> And what about the tourist, who makes a 30-minute side trip to go to a 
>> coffee shop to eat some sweets, and finds only two kinds of marlenka in a 
>> paper box?
>
>
> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what Yellow 
> Pages
> is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.
>
>>
>> I share the opinion that some cukrászdas are not shops, they should be 
>> tagged as amenity (but not amenity=cafe).
>
>
> From where I'm sitting, they quack like cafes.  Cafes with very limited 
> choices of
> cuisine, but still cafes.  Some of them are cafes selling home-made products,
> but they still quack like cafes.  They are cafes I would avoid 
> (diet-controlled
> diabetes) just as I would avoid vegetarian cafes (I don't like their menus) so
> I would be delighted to find those things specified by cuisine=* so I could
> avoid 

Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 13:35, bkil  wrote:
> 
> Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
> from. Let's get some facts straight.


thank you for this summary which is in line with how I would see it.


Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 12:02, Jake Edmonds via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am
> from, and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food
> restaurant
>

I am surprised that there is anywhere in the world that would glorify a
McDonalds sit-down area with the term "restaurant."  Candle-lit quarter
pounders for two?  Would sir like wine with that?

However, taking another look at the wiki for fast food, I see it covers
sit down as well as takeaway only.  Which surprised me (never having
had to map a McD).  For me there is a very, very big distinction between
a takeaway-only place and somewhere you can sit down to eat.  Counter-only
service is not a biggie.  Speed of the food is somewhat important but speed
is a continuous variable, even at a single establishment: I can go to a
chip shop and, if there's no queue, have my order filled in under a minute;
or I can go in and they've run out of chips and I have to wait 10 minutes
while they fry more.  Whether or not I can sit down out of the rain
matters far more to me.

But we have what we have: a tag that seems specially crafted for McD,
whether it has seating or not, as opposed to a tag for somewhere with
no seats at all.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[bkil]

Okay, so at least now I better see where the misunderstanding stems
from. Let's get some facts straight. It may be true that almost all
words in OSM are interpreted within British English, but amenity=café
is an exception (we've decided to leave out the accent for the benefit
of the international community).

Other than the accidental clash in wording, it doesn't refer to a
British cafe, greasy spoon or a diner - without having visited one of
those, I'd probably simply tag those as amenity=fast_food.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe (redirect to coffeehouse)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafe_(British)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasy_spoon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diner

Let me share some proof to consider.

If you refer to:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcafe

> amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal place with sit-down 
> facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or snacks. This includes 
> coffee-shops and tea shops selling perhaps tea, coffee and cakes through to 
> bistros selling meals with alcoholic drinks."

This highlights the fact that we've introduced this kind of amenity to
tag a café or coffee-shop as per the text and Wikipedia.

The pictures all show coffeehouses.

The proposed icon that shows the most prominent feature of this
amenity depicts a coffee mug.

You can verify that this was the original intention and original icon
of the creators as well:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dcafe#Voting

If you think the community should reserve the tag amenity=cafe for
diners and British cafe, what tag do you think the rest of the world
should be using for their hundreds of thousands of coffeehouses?

As mentioned by Feket, a coffeehouse usually also has something to "go
with" your coffee, tea or other beverage, like a sandwich, a snack or
even a piece of pie or cake they purchased (possibly from a
cukrászda). Most small cafés around here usually lack a kitchen in
which they could cook hot meals. I think offering something quick and
simple like an omelette mentioned on the talk page could also be
plausible, but people definitely aren't coming here for the food.
However, it is not unheard of in Hungary that you could enjoy a 2-hour
limited-time daily lunch:menu=* meal in a café or in a drink-only pub
that they also order from outside kitchens (I also have some
description of this custom if you are interested - the source page has
recently been vandalized).

This also brings us back to amenity=fast_food:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfast_food

> Fast food is for a place concentrating on very fast counter-only service and 
> take-away food.
>
>The food has a short preparation and serving time, usually because it is 
>industrially prepared food and requires very few additional preparation steps. 
>Food is typically served on disposable plates or in boxes, and often to be 
>eaten with plastic cutlery. Food is typically paid for at the counter prior to 
>consuming. There may be sit-down facilities ranging from one or two to many 
>easy-to-clean chairs and tables.
>
>The most obvious examples are the ubiquitous US chains such as McDonald's, but 
>also includes places like Subway sandwich shops, and may include "fast casual" 
>places like Chipotle Mexican Grill, Hot Dog booths, China take away, 
>carts/food trucks (only ones that appear regularly at the same place) and more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_food_restaurant

> A fast food restaurant, also known as a quick service restaurant (QSR) within 
> the industry, is a specific type of restaurant that serves fast food cuisine 
> and has minimal table service. The food served in fast food restaurants is 
> typically part of a "meat-sweet diet", offered from a limited menu, cooked in 
> bulk in advance and kept hot, finished and packaged to order, and usually 
> available for take away, though seating may be provided. Fast food 
> restaurants are typically part of a restaurant chain or franchise operation 
> that provides standardized ingredients and/or partially prepared foods and 
> supplies to each restaurant through controlled supply channels. The term 
> "fast food" was recognized in a dictionary by Merriam–Webster in 1951.[1]
>
>Arguably, the first fast food restaurants originated in the United States with 
>White Castle in 1921.[2] Today, American-founded fast food chains such as 
>McDonald's (est. 1940) and KFC (est. 1952)[3][4][5][6] are multinational 
>corporations with outlets across the globe.

Note that illustrations depict Burger King, McDonald's and a fish and
chip shop in England, and that the icon generally depicts a fast food
item like a burger. It is true that there exist such small fast_food
restaurants that they operate from a vehicle and they may only have
tables, but no seats (takeaway=only and/or capacity=0), but this is a
minority. The vast majority do have at least picnic table kind of
seating outside, and ones residing within buildings 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:18, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like amenity=drinks 
> or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to shop=beverages 
> which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which you walk around 
> and add to your shopping basket).
> 
> The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine.


I don’t believe it is helpful to cluster all kind of places where you can 
primarily find something to drink in a generic tag. Bubble tea is very 
specific, and unless you want bubble tea you would not want to find these when 
you are thirsty. We already do distinguish places to drink with various tags 
like bar, cafe, pub, and it does not seem likely that we will deprecate these, 
so a amenity=drinks or shop=drinks would not promise more consistency or ease 
of tagging. We also already have shop=wine, shop=beverages and more. I would 
make bubble_tea a first level tag
(or maybe a subtag for pastry/sweets etc.)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Jake Edmonds via Tagging]

While it might be used in Paul’s area, McDonalds is not a cafe where I am from, 
and would put money on most British people calling it a fast food restaurant 

Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone

> On 29 Jun 2020, at 12:56, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:41, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
>> 
>> You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian 
>> cafe. I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.
> 
> 
> because it seems the term „cafe“ in Britain has a different meaning than it 
> has in Germany, Austria, Hungary (likely some Austrian influences) and other 
> places. At least this is what Paul tells us (I admit I found it more than 
> strange that cafe could be a suitable term for a McDonald‘s, Mc Cafe aside)
> 
> Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:41, Gábor Fekete  wrote:
> 
> You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian cafe. 
> I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.


because it seems the term „cafe“ in Britain has a different meaning than it has 
in Germany, Austria, Hungary (likely some Austrian influences) and other 
places. At least this is what Paul tells us (I admit I found it more than 
strange that cafe could be a suitable term for a McDonald‘s, Mc Cafe aside)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Gábor Fekete]

From: Paul Allen 
> > Because I can spot a cafe by looking through the window as I go past but
> I cannot determine
> the type of service without hanging around or going in.
>

I can identify a cukrászda through its window.

> That's what cuisine=* is for.  That's what Google is for.  That's what
> Yellow Pages is for.  That's what TripAdvisor is for.
>

In Hungary in every restaurant before you pay the bill, the waiter asks if
you want some dessert. She asks you, even if they only have pancakes as
dessert. So one could tag every "amenity=restaurant" with
"cuisine=*;dessert". But the restaurants do not want you to sit in only for
a pancake, they want you to eat a whole course (food).
Cukrászdas want you to eat from their many sweets.
If Google is for finding specific places in the world, what is OSM for?


> >   Do we need to make that distinction in OSM?  If I were by myself and
> very hungry
> I'd look for a cafe; if I wanted to impress somebody by taking them for a
> meal I'd look for a restaurant.
>

You would be surprised if you wanted to cure your hunger in a Hungarian
cafe. I do not expect (real, nutritious) food in a cafe.

Regards,

fekete
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Re: [Tagging] Surveillance camera angle

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

btw., there is also the established "direction" tag which defines cardinal
directions and angles. Is there a reason we need a different tag for
cameras?

Admittedly, 80% are about "forward" backward, both and clockwise:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/direction#values
But at least the specification is clear:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Adirection

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Andrew Harvey]

The way I see it these are essentially vendors which primarily sell made to
order drinks and mostly take away only (although some provide seating).

I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like amenity=drinks
or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to shop=beverages
which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which you walk around
and add to your shopping basket).

The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine. This then caters for
the longtail of specific types of drinks which makes it much easier for
data consumers. It makes it easier when these places make a few different
kinds of drinks and not just bubble tea. Just around me there are the
traditional taiwainese bubble tea places, purple yogourt, other yogourt
drinks, fruit tea, blended juice. So a shop=drinks would cover them all
without needing a special top level tag for each, and you would add all the
specific types of drinks as cuisine (and possibly add cusine=taiwanese as
well).

While I've been tagging these as amenity=cafe and name-suggestion-index has
them as cafe, that's more just because we don't have a better tag and agree
that they aren't what at least I'd consider a cafe (which is more sit down,
possibly with cake or meals).

Existing tags like takeaway=only, indoor_seating=yes/no/bar_table,
outdoor_seating=yes/no should be used to add further information.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 01:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging 
wrote:

> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very
> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
>
> Please visit and comment for this proposal, thanks.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Surveillance camera angle

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 29. Juni 2020 um 10:53 Uhr schrieb Cascafico Giovanni <
cascaf...@gmail.com>:

> Hello!
>
> What is "camera:angle"?
>
> Taginfo [1] lists values consistent both to field-of-view and
> inclination. I cannot find wiki, just discussion and a proposal status



I guess, "angle" assumes that North is at 0 and that the angle is measured
clockwise? Generally I agree that this is underspecified. It may also not
be recognizable whether the camera can be rotated or is fixed. Field of
view may be even harder to recognize. So in general you can expect that all
this information will be relatively unreliable ;-)

Cheers
Martin
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[Tagging] Surveillance camera angle

[Cascafico Giovanni]

Hello!

What is "camera:angle"?

Taginfo [1] lists values consistent both to field-of-view and
inclination. I cannot find wiki, just discussion and a proposal status
[2].


[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/camera%3Aangle#values
[2] 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extended_tags_for_Key:Surveillance#Field_of_view.2C_height.2Fdirection.2Fangle_-_tagging_camera_and_sensor_alignment_and_mobility..._how.3F

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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 29, 2020, 02:08 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 08:59, Paul Allen <> pla16...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Harder, as somebody else pointed out, is a McDonalds with seats.  It's
>> fast food, but it has seats.  I'd map it as a cafe with takeaway=yes since
>> we don't appear to have the option for fast food with seating=yes.
>>
>
> But McDonalds call themselves "restaurants"!
>
And they also present their food as healthy.
Both are misleading advertisement that should be ignore like almost
all of advertising.
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Re: [Tagging] Central European insight needed: cukrászda, cukrárna, cukiernia, ciastkarnia, cukráreň, pasticceria, konditorei, patisserie, ...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 02:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> But McDonalds call themselves "restaurants"!


it does not matter. That’s the difference between advertising and reality ;-)

It may be a “restaurant”, but not for OpenStreetMap, at least around here 
nobody considers them restaurants. 

Cheers Martin 
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