Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Volker Schmidt]

> In the officially multilingual areas people are tagging multiple
> > languages in name: eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/47207
>
> It is one of the ugliest form of tagging for renderer, unfortunately
> many people believe that it a good idea.
>

... but it is the name as reported on the offical signs: [1]

[1] https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bolzano_Bozen_road_sign.JPG
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Imre Samu]

>your schema is neither simple nor usable for multilangue area
>what's the primaryOnTheGroundLang for Brussels ? or Fribourg ?
>f I understand you very well,  ...

sorry,
maybe the "Heuristic" is a better word = "a practical method not guaranteed
to be optimal or perfect, but sufficient for the immediate goals. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic

We can improve and we can invent a complex metadata - for most of the
extreme case, and maybe we can reach the ~99.5% - precision.

We can  add some other rules
- detecting charset (Arabic, Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Chinese
Traditional, Korean, Japanese , Thai , ... )
- separators  + language orders
- we can add some extra regexp or other special rules (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_rules_engine )


separator  ,   Language_orders, PossibleLanguages,
Charset_order,example
Brussels,  Q239 ," - ",'fr nl', fr nl de ,
"latin latin" ,"Rue du Marché aux Poulets - Kiekenmarkt"
Hong Kong, Q8646," ",  'zh en', zh en, "chinese
latin"   ,"干諾道中 Connaught Road Central"
Sardinia,  Q1462,"/",  unknown   , sc ca co lij it  ,
 ,"Nùgoro/Nuoro"
South Tyrol,Q15124,  " - ",   unknown  , it de lld   ,
   ,"Urtijëi - St. Ulrich - Ortisei"

In South Tyrol / Sardegna (Sardinia) the language order is not
defined("unknown").  But we can add some QA check for detecting all
"name:*"  tags exists.

Maybe in the new OSM data model - we can solve this problem.




2018-04-24 19:20 GMT+02:00 marc marc :

> your schema is neither simple nor usable for multilangue area
> what's the primaryOnTheGroundLang for Brussels ? or Fribourg ?
> if I understand you very well, a guy need to travel the city and count
> how many NameOnTheGround is in fr and how many in nl and after he can
> create the metadata. woaw !
> and what if 2 langages have the same count ?
> because in Brussels all street signs are bilingual.
>
> a KISS schema for boundary look like
> language:fr=main or official or designated + language:nl=thesame
> or official_language:fr=yes + official_language:nl=yes
> or official_language=fr;nl
>
> and it somebody want to include a kind of ground stat or spoken
> language, it's maybe another chanllenge... and have no idea of what kind
> of source you 'll find for that.
>
> Le 24. 04. 18 à 18:56, Imre Samu a écrit :
> >> The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how to
> calculate the language of the "name" tag.
> >
> > As I understand - We need a "simple metadata" - about the "current
> > mapping rules"  [ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
> ]
> > So, We can use this for:
> > -  Multilingual Maps
> > -  OSM Editors  - checking/validating  character sets, extreme characters
> > -  "Localization of name suggestion":
> > https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/issues/11
> > -  other QA tools  ( osmcha?)
> >
> > My biggest problem is the "on the ground" rule:
> > /  "The "on the ground" rule remains the method of determining the
> > appropriate value for the name tag. "/
> > https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_
> Minutes/DWG_2014-06-05_Special_Crimea
> >
> > But sometimes reusing this metadata for QA rules is not so simple :
> > - " Béla Bartók square in Paris. The “ó” is not valid in French."see
> > more: https://wiesmann.codiferes.net/wordpress/?p=15187
> >
> >
> > *My  pragmatic solution*
> >
> > in my mind, this is 2 separated problem:
> > - inventing a good metadata for every case ( see
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names  for example:
> > Hong Kong  )
> > - storing the metadata  [ as an OSM tag;   in the OsmWiki  ; in the
> > Github(https://github.com/osmlab/)
> >
> >
> > First - We can create a simple metadata -   with the  "Wikidata"-keys on
> > the OSM admin areas
> >
> > like  a simpleWikidata(OSM admin-area) -  primary/secondary language
> > code table
> >
> > name_en,Wikidata,  primaryOnTheGroundLang,
> > secondaryOnTheGroundLang
> > Aruba,Q21203,nl ,
> > Afghanistan,Q889,  ps
> > Angola,Q916,  pt
> > Anguilla,Q25228,en
> > Albania,Q222,  sq
> > Åland Islands,Q5689, sv
> > ..
> > Crimea, Q7835, ru,uk
> > Russia, Q159,  ru,
> > Ukraine,Q212,  uk,
> > ...
> >
> > - If some area overlapping (  "Crimea") - the smaller area has a higher
> > priority
> > - We can merge this metadata with the OSM  - and after we have polygons.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2018-04-24 15:58 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan  > >:
> >
> > The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how
> > to calculate the language of the "name" tag.  Without it, name tag
> > becomes nearly useless.  For example:
> >
> > * An Italian user viewing a feature in China with two tags: "name"
> > and "name:fr".   In th

Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:29:44 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> In the officially multilingual areas people are tagging multiple
> languages in name: eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/47207

It is one of the ugliest form of tagging for renderer, unfortunately
many people believe that it a good idea.

It is mostly caused by fact that far too many maps do not allow user to
select a map language.

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 16:58:23 +0300
Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:

> The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how to
> calculate the language of the "name" tag.  Without it, name tag
> becomes nearly useless.  For example:
> 
> * An Italian user viewing a feature in China with two tags: "name" and
> "name:fr".   In this case, "name:fr" tag is preferred because "name"
> is likely to be in Chinese - not great for an Italian speaker.
> * Same tags, but the feature is in Italy -- now "name" tag is the
> better choice because the name is actually in the same language as
> the reader.
> 
> Without knowing the language of the "name" tag, we cannot use it as
> part of the "script matching" - give preference to languages that use
> the same script as the reader, even if the language is different.

This is solvable by adding name:it in Italy (related thread just
appeared at the talk mailing list).

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[marc marc]

your schema is neither simple nor usable for multilangue area
what's the primaryOnTheGroundLang for Brussels ? or Fribourg ?
if I understand you very well, a guy need to travel the city and count 
how many NameOnTheGround is in fr and how many in nl and after he can 
create the metadata. woaw !
and what if 2 langages have the same count ?
because in Brussels all street signs are bilingual.

a KISS schema for boundary look like
language:fr=main or official or designated + language:nl=thesame
or official_language:fr=yes + official_language:nl=yes
or official_language=fr;nl

and it somebody want to include a kind of ground stat or spoken 
language, it's maybe another chanllenge... and have no idea of what kind 
of source you 'll find for that.

Le 24. 04. 18 à 18:56, Imre Samu a écrit :
>> The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how to 
>> calculate the language of the "name" tag. 
> 
> As I understand - We need a "simple metadata" - about the "current 
> mapping rules"  [ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ]
> So, We can use this for:
> -  Multilingual Maps
> -  OSM Editors  - checking/validating  character sets, extreme characters
> -  "Localization of name suggestion": 
> https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/issues/11
> -  other QA tools  ( osmcha?)
> 
> My biggest problem is the "on the ground" rule:
> /  "The "on the ground" rule remains the method of determining the 
> appropriate value for the name tag. "/
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DWG_2014-06-05_Special_Crimea
> 
> But sometimes reusing this metadata for QA rules is not so simple :
> - " Béla Bartók square in Paris. The “ó” is not valid in French."    see 
> more: https://wiesmann.codiferes.net/wordpress/?p=15187
> 
> 
> *My  pragmatic solution*
> 
> in my mind, this is 2 separated problem:
> - inventing a good metadata for every case ( see 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names  for example: 
> Hong Kong  )
> - storing the metadata  [ as an OSM tag;   in the OsmWiki  ; in the 
> Github(https://github.com/osmlab/)
> 
> 
> First - We can create a simple metadata -   with the  "Wikidata"-keys on 
> the OSM admin areas
> 
> like  a simple    Wikidata(OSM admin-area) -  primary/secondary language 
> code table
> 
> name_en,        Wikidata,  primaryOnTheGroundLang,
> secondaryOnTheGroundLang
> Aruba,        Q21203,    nl         ,
> Afghanistan,Q889,      ps
> Angola,        Q916,      pt
> Anguilla,Q25228,    en
> Albania,Q222,      sq
> Åland Islands,Q5689,     sv
> ..
> Crimea,         Q7835,     ru,                        uk
> Russia,         Q159,      ru,
> Ukraine,        Q212,      uk,
> ...
> 
> - If some area overlapping (  "Crimea") - the smaller area has a higher 
> priority
> - We can merge this metadata with the OSM  - and after we have polygons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2018-04-24 15:58 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan  >:
> 
> The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how
> to calculate the language of the "name" tag.  Without it, name tag
> becomes nearly useless.  For example:
> 
> * An Italian user viewing a feature in China with two tags: "name"
> and "name:fr".   In this case, "name:fr" tag is preferred because
> "name" is likely to be in Chinese - not great for an Italian speaker.
> * Same tags, but the feature is in Italy -- now "name" tag is the
> better choice because the name is actually in the same language as
> the reader.
> 
> Without knowing the language of the "name" tag, we cannot use it as
> part of the "script matching" - give preference to languages that
> use the same script as the reader, even if the language is different.
> 
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Andy Townsend  > wrote:
> 
> On 24/04/2018 09:11, Rory McCann wrote:
> 
> Ireland has 2 official languges (Irish first & then
> English), but only ~2% of the population speak Irish daily.
> There are some legal defined regions of Ireland which are
> supposed to be "Irish speaking areas", but even there Irish
> is a minority language. So how should that be tagged? (Some
> day we'll get around to mapping the Gaeltachtaí)
> 
> 
> Ireland's pretty much a "best case" for this as it does have
> defined language regions for Irish.  Most places don't.
> 
> 
> If you want to know the language in a multi-lingual area,
> why not look at the name, and name:XX tags. If the name
> value is the same as a name:Z then Z is the language.
> 
> 
> That won't always work.  You can probably guess the example I'm
> going to pick next - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235
>  :)
> 
> For those unaware, the story there is summarised at
> 

Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Imre Samu]

> The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how to
calculate the language of the "name" tag.

As I understand - We need a "simple metadata" - about the "current mapping
rules"  [ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ]
So, We can use this for:
-  Multilingual Maps
-  OSM Editors  - checking/validating  character sets, extreme characters
-  "Localization of name suggestion":
https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/issues/11
-  other QA tools  ( osmcha?)

My biggest problem is the "on the ground" rule:
  *  "The "on the ground" rule remains the method of determining the
appropriate value for the name tag. "*

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes/DWG_2014-06-05_Special_Crimea

But sometimes reusing this metadata for QA rules is not so simple :
- " Béla Bartók square in Paris. The “ó” is not valid in French."see
more:https://wiesmann.codiferes.net/wordpress/?p=15187


*My  pragmatic solution*

in my mind, this is 2 separated problem:
- inventing a good metadata for every case   ( see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names  for example: Hong
Kong  )
- storing the metadata  [ as an OSM tag;   in the OsmWiki  ;  in the Github(
https://github.com/osmlab/)


First - We can create a simple metadata -   with the  "Wikidata"-keys on
the OSM admin areas

like  a simpleWikidata(OSM admin-area) -  primary/secondary language
code table

name_en,Wikidata,  primaryOnTheGroundLang,secondaryOnTheGround
Lang
Aruba, Q21203,nl ,
Afghanistan, Q889,  ps
Angola, Q916,  pt
Anguilla, Q25228,en
Albania, Q222,  sq
Åland Islands, Q5689, sv
..
Crimea, Q7835, ru,uk
Russia, Q159,  ru,
Ukraine,Q212,  uk,
...

- If some area overlapping (  "Crimea") - the smaller area has a higher
priority
- We can merge this metadata with the OSM  - and after we have polygons.






2018-04-24 15:58 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :

> The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how to
> calculate the language of the "name" tag.  Without it, name tag becomes
> nearly useless.  For example:
>
> * An Italian user viewing a feature in China with two tags: "name" and
> "name:fr".   In this case, "name:fr" tag is preferred because "name" is
> likely to be in Chinese - not great for an Italian speaker.
> * Same tags, but the feature is in Italy -- now "name" tag is the better
> choice because the name is actually in the same language as the reader.
>
> Without knowing the language of the "name" tag, we cannot use it as part
> of the "script matching" - give preference to languages that use the same
> script as the reader, even if the language is different.
>
> On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>> On 24/04/2018 09:11, Rory McCann wrote:
>>
>>> Ireland has 2 official languges (Irish first & then English), but only
>>> ~2% of the population speak Irish daily. There are some legal defined
>>> regions of Ireland which are supposed to be "Irish speaking areas", but
>>> even there Irish is a minority language. So how should that be tagged?
>>> (Some day we'll get around to mapping the Gaeltachtaí)
>>>
>>
>> Ireland's pretty much a "best case" for this as it does have defined
>> language regions for Irish.  Most places don't.
>>
>>
>>> If you want to know the language in a multi-lingual area, why not look
>>> at the name, and name:XX tags. If the name value is the same as a name:Z
>>> then Z is the language.
>>>
>>
>> That won't always work.  You can probably guess the example I'm going to
>> pick next - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 :)
>>
>> For those unaware, the story there is summarised at
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Daingean#Name .  It's a while since
>> I've been there; not sure how much of a "cause celebre" it is currently.
>> I've certainly heard people on RTE refer to it as "Dingle / An Daingean"
>> (that's the English name and the commonly used Irish name but not the
>> official Irish name...).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[marc marc]

Le 24. 04. 18 à 18:29, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/47207
> 
> this is not very beautiful, while it was IMHO a good compromise for the 
> past, maybe this could be solved nicer with a new approach?
> 

one of the major issue for "official" multilingual name in one tag is 
that it doesn't exist a common schema.
in osm, the common separator is ; and therefore 
name="name_lang1;name_lang2" is imho the better choice.
Belgium use "name_lang1 - name_lang2"
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2404020
Switzerland use "name_lang1 / name_lang2"
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/51701

maybe a good first step should be that all tools are able to use those 3 
séparator and after local community can move to a common schema.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[James]

Martin that reminds me of what someone did in Northern Canada:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/107355436#map=14/68.7653/-81.2156

Inuktitut and English, despite Inuktitut not really being used(it's a way
to write what they speak invented by European settlers/priests), problem is
it's only for Inuit people and does not work for other Native American
languages

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 12:31 PM Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 24. Apr 2018, at 15:58, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
>
> * Same tags, but the feature is in Italy -- now "name" tag is the better
> choice because the name is actually in the same language as the reader.
>
>
>
> last year there were actually discussions in Italy whether to put other
> names than Italian in the name tag in some areas (where this language
> wasn’t currently recognized as official language but used on the ground
> (AFAIR, groundtruth was disputed by some, but it was hard to verify)). In
> the officially multilingual areas people are tagging multiple languages in
> name:
> eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/47207
>
> this is not very beautiful, while it was IMHO a good compromise for the
> past, maybe this could be solved nicer with a new approach?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Apr 2018, at 15:58, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> * Same tags, but the feature is in Italy -- now "name" tag is the better 
> choice because the name is actually in the same language as the reader.


last year there were actually discussions in Italy whether to put other names 
than Italian in the name tag in some areas (where this language wasn’t 
currently recognized as official language but used on the ground (AFAIR, 
groundtruth was disputed by some, but it was hard to verify)). In the 
officially multilingual areas people are tagging multiple languages in name:
eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/47207

this is not very beautiful, while it was IMHO a good compromise for the past, 
maybe this could be solved nicer with a new approach?

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Yuri Astrakhan]

The main problem multilingual map effort is trying to solve is how to
calculate the language of the "name" tag.  Without it, name tag becomes
nearly useless.  For example:

* An Italian user viewing a feature in China with two tags: "name" and
"name:fr".   In this case, "name:fr" tag is preferred because "name" is
likely to be in Chinese - not great for an Italian speaker.
* Same tags, but the feature is in Italy -- now "name" tag is the better
choice because the name is actually in the same language as the reader.

Without knowing the language of the "name" tag, we cannot use it as part of
the "script matching" - give preference to languages that use the same
script as the reader, even if the language is different.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 24/04/2018 09:11, Rory McCann wrote:
>
>> Ireland has 2 official languges (Irish first & then English), but only
>> ~2% of the population speak Irish daily. There are some legal defined
>> regions of Ireland which are supposed to be "Irish speaking areas", but
>> even there Irish is a minority language. So how should that be tagged?
>> (Some day we'll get around to mapping the Gaeltachtaí)
>>
>
> Ireland's pretty much a "best case" for this as it does have defined
> language regions for Irish.  Most places don't.
>
>
>> If you want to know the language in a multi-lingual area, why not look at
>> the name, and name:XX tags. If the name value is the same as a name:Z then
>> Z is the language.
>>
>
> That won't always work.  You can probably guess the example I'm going to
> pick next - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 :)
>
> For those unaware, the story there is summarised at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Daingean#Name .  It's a while since I've
> been there; not sure how much of a "cause celebre" it is currently.  I've
> certainly heard people on RTE refer to it as "Dingle / An Daingean" (that's
> the English name and the commonly used Irish name but not the official
> Irish name...).
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/04/2018 09:11, Rory McCann wrote:
Ireland has 2 official languges (Irish first & then English), but only 
~2% of the population speak Irish daily. There are some legal defined 
regions of Ireland which are supposed to be "Irish speaking areas", 
but even there Irish is a minority language. So how should that be 
tagged? (Some day we'll get around to mapping the Gaeltachtaí)


Ireland's pretty much a "best case" for this as it does have defined 
language regions for Irish.  Most places don't.




If you want to know the language in a multi-lingual area, why not look 
at the name, and name:XX tags. If the name value is the same as a 
name:Z then Z is the language.


That won't always work.  You can probably guess the example I'm going to 
pick next - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 :)


For those unaware, the story there is summarised at 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Daingean#Name .  It's a while since 
I've been there; not sure how much of a "cause celebre" it is 
currently.  I've certainly heard people on RTE refer to it as "Dingle / 
An Daingean" (that's the English name and the commonly used Irish name 
but not the official Irish name...).


Best Regards,
Andy





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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Rory McCann]

Ireland has 2 official languges (Irish first & then English), but only 
~2% of the population speak Irish daily. There are some legal defined 
regions of Ireland which are supposed to be "Irish speaking areas", but 
even there Irish is a minority language. So how should that be tagged? 
(Some day we'll get around to mapping the Gaeltachtaí)


If you want to know the language in a multi-lingual area, why not look 
at the name, and name:XX tags. If the name value is the same as a name:Z 
then Z is the language.


Compare https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52245274

name=Crossmolina
name:en=Crossmolina
name:ga=Crois Mhaoilíona

with https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52218312

name=Béal an Mhuirthead
name:en=Belmullet
name:ga=Béal an Mhuirthead

This could be done on a street level too.

On 18/04/18 21:41, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?  I 
would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an area. This 
will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data consumers to 
calculate which language name tags to use for which locale. This will 
also give OSM community a much greater control over such maps.


Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
type=language
primary=xx   (required)
secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)

A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for 
English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some 
cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.


What do you think?


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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Apr 2018, at 11:30, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> If you want to tag that French is the official language in France, add
> that to the France boundary relation instead of creating yet another
> relation that re-uses the boundary ways.


I understood he would be interested, besides the obvious French for France, to 
say there are still people in Alsace who speak German or people in the Pyrenees 
who speak Basque, or people in the Bretagne who speak Breton (just examples)


cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 19.04.2018 03:33, André Pirard wrote:
> I have several times suggested a "language" boundary type (with
> provision for minority languages etc.) 

I think such a boundary type would not be verifiable enough to draw a
precise line; it's the same problem as "the Black Forest" or "the Alps"
which simply don't match our data model. You can do it for verifiable
facts like "the official language(s) in  is/are
" but you cannot do it for fuzzy things.

Also, speaking of data model, we already have too many boundary
relations. Pick an arbitrary strech of the Rhine river near where I live
and you'll find it is a member of more than 20 relations, ranging from
administrative boundaries on various levels, to church or school
districts or cultural entities. This doesn't scale, hence my opposition
to further relations that will, by and large, follow existing borders.
If you want to tag that French is the official language in France, add
that to the France boundary relation instead of creating yet another
relation that re-uses the boundary ways.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[osm.tagging]

I noticed that French Community is a member of the Belgium relation twice. Once 
with subarea as role, and once with an empty role. Probably an error?

 

From: André Pirard  
Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2018 11:34
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools ; 
Yuri Astrakhan 
Subject: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

 

We do have language mapping in Belgium 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/52411> . Look at the subareas:



*   Relation German-speaking Community (2425209) 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2425209>  as subarea
*   Relation French Community (78967) 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/78967>  as subarea
*   Relation Flemish Community (53136) 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/53136>  as subarea
*   Relation Wallonia (90348) 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/90348>  as subarea
*   Relation Brussels-Capital (54094) 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/54094>  as subarea
*   Relation Flanders (53134) 
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/53134>  as subarea

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Andre, I wish I saw when you posted it earlier :)

Do you record the language codes anywhere?  I looked at the regions you
specified, but they have names, not the actual language codes, and when
working with data, codes are much easier to use.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 4:33 AM, André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 2018-04-18 21:41, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
>
> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?  I would
> like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an area. This will
> greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data consumers to calculate
> which language name tags to use for which locale. This will also give OSM
> community a much greater control over such maps.
>
> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> type=language
> primary=xx   (required)
> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
> English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some
> cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> What do you think?
>
> We do have language mapping in Belgium
> . Look at the subareas:
>
>
>- Relation German-speaking Community (2425209)
> as subarea
>- Relation French Community (78967)
> as subarea
>- Relation Flemish Community (53136)
> as subarea
>- Relation Wallonia (90348)
> as subarea
>- Relation Brussels-Capital (54094)
> as subarea
>- Relation Flanders (53134)
> as subarea
>
> Beside the 3 administrative boundaries for regions Wallonia, Flanders and
> Brussels, we have 3 *official* French, Flemish and German speaking
> communities. These, failing a suitable boundary type, have been tagged as
> political as follows :
>
> boundary 
> political
> 
> name  Communauté
> française
> name:de  
> Französische
> Gemeinschaft
> name:en  French
> Community
> name:fr  
> Communauté
> française
> name:nl  Franse
> Gemeenschap
> nat_name  
> Communauté
> française de Belgique
>
> The language boundaries subtree (nesting) is made possible for
> non-administrative boundaries with the extremely clever (*) and practical
> subarea concept. Administrative boundaries, such as municipalities, are
> included as parts of the language trees at the bottom.
>
> I have several times suggested a "language" boundary type (with provision
> for minority languages etc.) and using the cleverness of subareas.
> The conclusion from the total lack of answers is that the OSM community is
> interested in neither (hence my astonishment reading this conversation).
>
> All the best,
>
> André.
> (*) be it only the possibility to show the boundaries as simply as in this
> message rather than saying look for and gather the boundaries with admin
> level=x or find and use a program that does it and if there is no admin
> level say goodbye to your project.
>
>
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[Tagging] Identifying language regions

[André Pirard]

On 2018-04-18 21:41, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?  I
> would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an area.
> This will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data consumers
> to calculate which language name tags to use for which locale. This
> will also give OSM community a much greater control over such maps.
>
> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> type=language
> primary=xx   (required)
> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
> English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In
> some cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> What do you think?
>
We do have language mapping in Belgium
. Look at the subareas:
>
>   * Relation German-speaking Community (2425209)
>  as subarea
>   * Relation French Community (78967)
>  as subarea
>   * Relation Flemish Community (53136)
>  as subarea
>   * Relation Wallonia (90348)
>  as subarea
>   * Relation Brussels-Capital (54094)
>  as subarea
>   * Relation Flanders (53134)
>  as subarea
>
Beside the 3 administrative boundaries for regions Wallonia, Flanders
and Brussels, we have 3 *official* French, Flemish and German speaking
communities. These, failing a suitable boundary type, have been tagged
as political as follows :
> boundary 
>   political
> 
> name 
> Communauté française
> name:de 
> Französische Gemeinschaft
> name:en 
> French Community
> name:fr 
> Communauté française
> name:nl 
> Franse Gemeenschap
> nat_name
> 
> Communauté française de Belgique
>
The language boundaries subtree (nesting) is made possible for
non-administrative boundaries with the extremely clever (*) and
practical subarea concept. Administrative boundaries, such as
municipalities, are included as parts of the language trees at the bottom.

I have several times suggested a "language" boundary type (with
provision for minority languages etc.) and using the cleverness of subareas.
The conclusion from the total lack of answers is that the OSM community
is interested in neither (hence my astonishment reading this conversation).

All the best,

André.


(*) be it only the possibility to show the boundaries as simply as in
this message rather than saying look for and gather the boundaries with
admin level=x or find and use a program that does it and if there is no
admin level say goodbye to your project.

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Apr 2018, at 00:06, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> The question "what is the majority/official language in region X" or
> "country Y", on the other hand, tends to have a clear answer.


yes, if you look at the majority language in a whole country this is typically 
easy to answer, and can be looked up in a list / wikidata, no need to map it, 
or if you did you would probably finish soon.

What would be much more interesting are minority languages, spoken (as first 
language) by a (locally) significant part of the population, regardless of them 
being official or not.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Yuri Astrakhan]

While it is certainly possible for the country to have hundreds of
languages, I am pretty sure it is rare for a single village to speak them
all. In such cases, the granularity could go down to smaller units than a
country (and if OSM is capable of storing hundreds of millions of
buildings, I'm sure it can store a few thousand of language regions).
Lastly, most (not all) "name" tags are written in a specific, single
language.  This attempt will document data, without requiring each OSM
object to have that info.

We should also keep in mind usage of such data. For example, given an
object with "name", "name:it" and "name:ja_rm", and the data consumer need
to decide which one to use if they are rendering a map in French.  With the
above data, we can rely on the default language - e.g. if default=it (e.g.
in Italy), we would choose name:it. If this is Japan, than we should use
"ja_rm".  We would also be able to establish the language of the "name", to
see when to show it vs others.

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 3:35 AM, marc marc 
wrote:

> what's TSKM ?
>
> for Switzerland, we talk about it a few months ago.
> The discussion lacked participants.
> but some was thinking that adding official languages on the boundary
> could be useful for rendering and tracking officially multilingual
> places (name with multiple value is a very heavy (=bad) compromise in
> practice, especially since there are several conventions depending on
> the country such as the separator which for a (bad) reason of rendering
> has sometimes been chosen as" -" instead of the usual ";")
>
> imho maybe with this schema
> one language:xx=yes for each official language
> or language=xx;yy;zz where xx yy zz are the official languages
> but as far as I know, nothing has been done.
>
> It seems to me very complicated to tag the languages spoken in a place
> of variable geometry. if two families speaking the same language live in
> the same street, could you add this info ?
> if not, how many families is enough/needed ?
> It's too subjective.
>
> Le 19. 04. 18 à 01:43, Thilo Haug OSM a écrit :
> > An example, good luck :
> > 56 TSKM, 39 Languages
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Togo
> > 41 TSKM, 4 languages :
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland
> >
> > (Germany : 357 TSKM)
> >
> > Am 18.04.2018 um 21:49 schrieb Vao Matua:
> >> I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this.
> >> There are many countries that have many or even hundreds of
> >> languages.  The lines between the places where languages are commonly
> >> spoken can be quite fuzzy and often do not follow any other features.
> >> A year ago I was living in a place where people living there spoke 3
> >> different languages in addition to the "official" language.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan
> >> mailto:yuriastrak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?
> >> I would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an
> >> area. This will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data
> >> consumers to calculate which language name tags to use for which
> >> locale. This will also give OSM community a much greater control
> >> over such maps.
> >>
> >> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> >> type=language
> >> primary=xx   (required)
> >> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
> >>
> >> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada
> >> for English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in
> >> Canada). In some cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[marc marc]

what's TSKM ?

for Switzerland, we talk about it a few months ago.
The discussion lacked participants.
but some was thinking that adding official languages on the boundary 
could be useful for rendering and tracking officially multilingual 
places (name with multiple value is a very heavy (=bad) compromise in 
practice, especially since there are several conventions depending on 
the country such as the separator which for a (bad) reason of rendering 
has sometimes been chosen as" -" instead of the usual ";")

imho maybe with this schema
one language:xx=yes for each official language
or language=xx;yy;zz where xx yy zz are the official languages
but as far as I know, nothing has been done.

It seems to me very complicated to tag the languages spoken in a place 
of variable geometry. if two families speaking the same language live in 
the same street, could you add this info ?
if not, how many families is enough/needed ?
It's too subjective.

Le 19. 04. 18 à 01:43, Thilo Haug OSM a écrit :
> An example, good luck :
> 56 TSKM, 39 Languages
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Togo
> 41 TSKM, 4 languages :
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland
> 
> (Germany : 357 TSKM)
> 
> Am 18.04.2018 um 21:49 schrieb Vao Matua:
>> I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this.  
>> There are many countries that have many or even hundreds of 
>> languages.  The lines between the places where languages are commonly 
>> spoken can be quite fuzzy and often do not follow any other features. 
>> A year ago I was living in a place where people living there spoke 3 
>> different languages in addition to the "official" language.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan 
>> mailto:yuriastrak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions? 
>> I would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an
>> area. This will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data
>> consumers to calculate which language name tags to use for which
>> locale. This will also give OSM community a much greater control
>> over such maps.
>>
>> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
>> type=language
>> primary=xx   (required)
>> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>>
>> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada
>> for English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in
>> Canada). In some cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>>
>> What do you think?
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Thilo Haug OSM]

An example, good luck :
56 TSKM, 39 Languages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Togo
41 TSKM, 4 languages :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland

(Germany : 357 TSKM)

Am 18.04.2018 um 21:49 schrieb Vao Matua:
> I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this. 
> There are many countries that have many or even hundreds of
> languages.  The lines between the places where languages are commonly
> spoken can be quite fuzzy and often do not follow any other features.
> A year ago I was living in a place where people living there spoke 3
> different languages in addition to the "official" language.
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan
> mailto:yuriastrak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions? 
> I would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an
> area. This will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data
> consumers to calculate which language name tags to use for which
> locale. This will also give OSM community a much greater control
> over such maps.
>
> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> type=language
> primary=xx   (required)
> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada
> for English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in
> Canada). In some cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> What do you think?
>
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Vao Matua]

I suggest doing a Google image search for "language map Nigeria" to see how
problematic this suggestion will be.
OpenStreetMap is not a full function geospatial information tool.
Mapping thousands of languages might be tidy in North America, but will
make a mess in other parts of the world.

Vao

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 04/18/2018 09:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
> > A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
> > English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some
> > cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> We had a discussion about time zones here recently, and came to the
> conclusion that they should not be mapped as separate polygon relations,
> but instead that the time zone information should be tagged on the admin
> boundaries of a country or smaller entity; and that time zone polygons
> in their own right would only be welcome where they don't follow country
> boundaries.
>
> I have a feeling that the same will hold true for spoken languages. I
> would be very much against trying to establish fuzzy separate regions
> for language use, since the exact delineation will not be verifiable.
> The question "what is the majority/official language in region X" or
> "country Y", on the other hand, tends to have a clear answer.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 04/18/2018 09:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
> English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some
> cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.

We had a discussion about time zones here recently, and came to the
conclusion that they should not be mapped as separate polygon relations,
but instead that the time zone information should be tagged on the admin
boundaries of a country or smaller entity; and that time zone polygons
in their own right would only be welcome where they don't follow country
boundaries.

I have a feeling that the same will hold true for spoken languages. I
would be very much against trying to establish fuzzy separate regions
for language use, since the exact delineation will not be verifiable.
The question "what is the majority/official language in region X" or
"country Y", on the other hand, tends to have a clear answer.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-18 22:40 GMT+02:00 Yuri Astrakhan :

> Vao, I think OSM is perfect for this specifically because you need local
> knowledge like what you describe to create it :)   It would not be possible
> to create it as accurately without that on-the-ground info.  Of course we
> can also expand the actual tags based on such feedback.
>


I agree that a map is not the worst medium to store which language is
spoken where. Fuzzy regions are a problem, the concept should have
provisions how to deal with this (i.e. find a way to store "fuzzy borders",
this is not just about tags, it is similar to geographic regions). Good
luck.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Majority language boundaries would be enough for most use cases. Sample
tagging:

type=boundary
boundary=language
name=Italiano
ref=

18-04-2018 22:49 tarihinde Vao Matua yazdı:
> I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this. 
> There are many countries that have many or even hundreds of
> languages.  The lines between the places where languages are commonly
> spoken can be quite fuzzy and often do not follow any other features.
> A year ago I was living in a place where people living there spoke 3
> different languages in addition to the "official" language.
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan
> mailto:yuriastrak...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions? 
> I would like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an
> area. This will greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data
> consumers to calculate which language name tags to use for which
> locale. This will also give OSM community a much greater control
> over such maps.
>
> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> type=language
> primary=xx   (required)
> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada
> for English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in
> Canada). In some cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> What do you think?
>
Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp

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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Vao, I think OSM is perfect for this specifically because you need local
knowledge like what you describe to create it :)   It would not be possible
to create it as accurately without that on-the-ground info.  Of course we
can also expand the actual tags based on such feedback.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:49 PM, Vao Matua  wrote:

> I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this.  There
> are many countries that have many or even hundreds of languages.  The lines
> between the places where languages are commonly spoken can be quite fuzzy
> and often do not follow any other features. A year ago I was living in a
> place where people living there spoke 3 different languages in addition to
> the "official" language.
>
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
>
>> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?  I would
>> like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an area. This will
>> greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data consumers to calculate
>> which language name tags to use for which locale. This will also give OSM
>> community a much greater control over such maps.
>>
>> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
>> type=language
>> primary=xx   (required)
>> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>>
>> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
>> English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some
>> cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Vao Matua]

I would suggest that OSM is probably not the best place for this.  There
are many countries that have many or even hundreds of languages.  The lines
between the places where languages are commonly spoken can be quite fuzzy
and often do not follow any other features. A year ago I was living in a
place where people living there spoke 3 different languages in addition to
the "official" language.

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Yuri Astrakhan 
wrote:

> What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?  I would
> like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an area. This will
> greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data consumers to calculate
> which language name tags to use for which locale. This will also give OSM
> community a much greater control over such maps.
>
> Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
> type=language
> primary=xx   (required)
> secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)
>
> A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
> English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some
> cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.
>
> What do you think?
>
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[Tagging] Identifying language regions

[Yuri Astrakhan]

What would be the best tags to use for mapping language regions?  I would
like to create a map of primary languages spoken in an area. This will
greatly help with multilingual maps, allowing data consumers to calculate
which language name tags to use for which locale. This will also give OSM
community a much greater control over such maps.

Proposal (relations only, must have closed polygons):
type=language
primary=xx   (required)
secondary=yy;zz;...  (optional)

A relation may span multiple countries (e.g. US and most of Canada for
English), or split countries (e.g. EN and FR regions in Canada). In some
cases, the relation will reuse country border ways.

What do you think?
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