Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

You are absolutely correct that “language=xx” would be the simplest tag. And it was proposed back in 2009 (though never progressed to a vote): https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Language_of_this_element But “language=*” is now being used for the language spoken or taught at a

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Hi, * Joseph Eisenberg [180927 13:10]: > Re: do “the current > proposals would mean that any POI (not referring to a government > building) in Brussels needs to be retagged to name:XX or add > default:language:XX (?) > There are no mandatory tags in OSM, nothing needs to be retagged. But there

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

sent from a phone > On 27. Sep 2018, at 15:42, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > Maybe etymology of this word is based on an acronym, but nowadays > > it is used as a word. > As Christoph said in his first reply, these are brands, where it is typical to have abbreviations, acronyms or

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

26. Sep 2018 21:27 by p...@trigpoint.me.uk : > On Wed, 2018-09-26 at 19:54 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On 09/26/2018 05:53 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: >> > Names in a non-discernible language have so far not been >> > discussed.  I  >> > would need to

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

I’m sorry I misunderstood your point about POIs (eg shops, amenities) in Brussels, which as you say often have a name in only one language. On this case, a map renderer or routing service that has adopted this new tag should look first for name:nl=* and name:fr=*, and show whichever one is found.

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Re: destination signs for routing. Paul brought up some good examples about routing and traveling. I believe destination signs are already stored in OSM with the tag “destination=xxx”, where “xxx” is whatever is actually written on the sign. Certainly this should be used by routing services and

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

> > As a Flemish person, I rather have the name of the street pronounced > in Dutch in Brussels than in the 2 languages as is now the case. This > is probably one of the complications > This is especially true because the pronunciation rules for

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Marc Gemis wrote: > > > 5) All of the above have additional complications when dealing with > multi-lingual communities. > > As a Flemish person, I rather have the name of the street pronounced > in Dutch in Brussels than in the 2 languages as is now the case.

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 1:21 PM Paul Allen wrote: > 3) If I'm travelling across Europe by car, and am currently in France and > want to get to Munich, at the French side of > the border I want to know to look for Allemande, not Germany or Deutschland > on the signage. > I typically rely on

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

We already have a map in of Belgium based on OSM without any additional tag. A typical Flemish map does not show French names high-level. So it it uses name:nl, if that's not there name. Since all bi-langual object will be mapped with name, name:nl and name:fr, there is no reason to use "name" if

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

I've thought some more about this. And reflected upon some comments from a previous discussion (this topic is one of the list's perennials) a few months ago that, back then, I couldn't see the reasoning. And yes, I realize the proposal is about what gets stored in the db, not what gets rendered,

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Re: do “the current proposals would mean that any POI (not referring to a government building) in Brussels needs to be retagged to name:XX or add default:language:XX (?) There are no mandatory tags in OSM, nothing needs to be retagged. But there would be the option to add default:language=fr to a

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Some practical information from Belgium: We have three official languages nl,fr,de Flanders is nl (*) Brussels is nl;fr Wallonia is Fr (*) Eupen-Malmedy is de This means that town names, street names and bus stops can be expected in the above mentioned languages. Same goes for government

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

The Proposal page lists a couple of other reasons under "rational:" *1), 2)* Similar to your points a), and d) *3)* It is not possible for renderers to properly render bilingual names when one of the languages should be written in different directions *4)* Localized and personalized maps, such

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

While it is a good idea to address the issues around name=* and name:=* tags, this proposal is a necessary first step before we can do anything else. Frederik's perferred solution and Christoph's idea both require there to be a default language format tag. I would recommend approving this

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Wolfgang Zenker wrote: > > * allow mappers to accurately document information on names of > > features in all situations that might exist world wide where there > > are verifiable names with as little effort and in the least error > > prone way as possible. > > *

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

* Christoph Hormann [180926 20:43]: > On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Wolfgang Zenker wrote: >> it appears to me that before discussing possible solutions we should >> better agree on what the problem is. So far I see several related but >> different problems mixed into one and consequently no

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

what about substrings of names? Just found this example where it would be needed to indicate that the name is composed of 3 different languages: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5726043060 Cheers, Martin sent from a phone___ Tagging mailing list

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > I am thinking of retail outlets like > > "Tesco" > > "Real" > > "Saturn" > > "Tk-Max" Ok, i could of course say now these are not names but brands but assuming these are names i see two options for those: * say the language is defined by

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wed, 2018-09-26 at 19:54 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 09/26/2018 05:53 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > Names in a non-discernible language have so far not been > > discussed.  I  > > would need to see some examples for this to form an opinion on the  > > matter.   > > I am

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Wolfgang Zenker wrote: > > it appears to me that before discussing possible solutions we should > better agree on what the problem is. So far I see several related but > different problems mixed into one and consequently no possible > agreement on the solution. I

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Duplicating all 'name' tags to 'name:xx' in our worldwide database is not so shocking, but I still prefer that we map what language is used where than the language the 'name' tag is in. It sounds less oriented. Yves Le 26 septembre 2018 19:54:41 GMT+02:00, Frederik Ramm a écrit : >Hi, > >On

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Hi, On 09/26/2018 05:53 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: > Names in a non-discernible language have so far not been discussed. I > would need to see some examples for this to form an opinion on the > matter. I am thinking of retail outlets like "Tesco" "Real" "Saturn" "Tk-Max" >> Yes. The

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

* Christoph Hormann [180926 17:53]: > On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote: >> On 26.09.2018 16:14, Christoph Hormann wrote: >>> Also in Germany we have features with no German name (most notably >>> probably in regions with significant minority languages but also >>> for example

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > On 26.09.2018 16:14, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > Also in Germany we have features with no German name (most notably > > probably in regions with significant minority languages but also > > for example some English shop names, Italian

[Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Hi, On 26.09.2018 16:14, Christoph Hormann wrote: > Also in Germany we have features with no German name (most notably > probably in regions with significant minority languages but also for > example some English shop names, Italian restaurant names etc.) You are not *really* advocating that

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

sent from a phone > On 26. Sep 2018, at 16:14, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > Also in Germany we have features with no German name (most notably > probably in regions with significant minority languages but also for > example some English shop names, Italian restaurant names etc.) +1, or

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Isn't it so that the new system adds zero usefulness to countries or > areas which have and use just one language, but is useful in regions > that have more than one? Hence, why roll it out in, say, most parts > of Germany *at all*, and just

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Hi, On 26.09.2018 12:00, Christoph Hormann wrote: > But the good news is that both the proposal of Joseph and my suggestion > would allow a simple an reliable fallback to the current tagging scheme > so once most data users are capable of interpreting the new scheme you > could smoothly

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

> On Sep 26, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > be amended with an identical name:xx tag just because xx is the language > spoken in that country! You are very lucky then to not have to deal with the documented tagging scheme of name= , name:en= name:ja= name:ja_rm=, and

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

I would expect Frederik to be even more disappointed if we were to first duplicate name to name:XX and then have another round of edits to remove name. At some point JOSM's valdiator was telling me to add name:language, so I did. That's where some of those Belgian entries probably come from for

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Wednesday 26 September 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > I added a comment on avoiding duplication - I would be very unhappy > if every feature on the planet that currently only has a name tag > would now be amended with an identical name:xx tag just because xx is > the language spoken in that

[Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Hi, On 26.09.2018 04:49, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > There have been a few small updates to the proposal page based on your > suggestions in the past week. > Please comment on the talk page if you have any further ideas or > criticisms: I added a comment on avoiding duplication - I would be very

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

There have been a few small updates to the proposal page based on your suggestions in the past week. Please comment on the talk page if you have any further ideas or criticisms: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format Thanks! On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

what about Aix-la-Chapelle (French) or Aken (Dutch) for Aachen in Germany ? At least the destination signs in Flanders show "Aken (Aachen)". Or destinations "Parijs" signs for Paris (still +200 km to go) in Flanders. For satnavs this does not matter, you just have to follow the destination they

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Hello ! I have in mind my trouble when driving back from Amsterdam toward France. I knew I had to pass through Lille but I did not see it on the directional signs. (No gps device back in the days ;-) ) I understood at last close to the border that the Rijsel I saw all the time on the signs means

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Every street in Brussels HAS a name:fr tag. They also ALL have a name:nl tag. An IPA representation also needs information about the language it is for. A name, even spelled with the exact same characters will be pronounced differently by a French speaker compared to a Ducht speaker. Sometimes

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On 19/09/18 08:58, Paul Allen wrote: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:24 PM, Joseph Eisenberg mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the renderer 'should' use.” By recording each name in a separate “name:=*” tag,

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Paul, Thank you for your comments. Have you read the complete Proposal page ? Perhaps I need to improve the wording to clarify some of your concerns >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

sent from a phone > On 19. Sep 2018, at 00:58, Paul Allen wrote: > > The only thing the map should render is the name as it is displayed on > signage. we’re not discussing map rendering here, but which information we want in the db, and how, so that people that want to render their map

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:24 PM, Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the > renderer 'should' use.” > > By recording each name in a separate “name:=*” tag, database users > and map makers will be able to pick

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

>”I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the renderer 'should' use.” Yes, that’s what this proposal suggests. Right now many map features have only a default “name=*” tag, without “name:=“ tags to specify the language. Do database users and map renderers are forced to use

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

WRT dauflt_language key -- the problem it tries to solve is that rendering software needs to know the language of the "name" tag. OSM editor shouldn't tell the renderer what to use, they should give all the data available, and let renderer developers choose what they need for the specific usecase,

Re: [Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

Definitely, I'd rather have local languages mapped rather than the language the renderer 'should' use. To try to convince you, say there is an edit war going on names... Yves ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org

[Tagging] Draft Proposal: Default Langauge Format

I've started a Draft Proposal page for this language format tag, based on our discussion here. It still needs more links and rendering examples, plus your comments The draft proposal outline: Specify the default