Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Jun 2018, at 13:18, Anton Klim  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Martin. I feel like this is a separate, but generally more 
> wide-ranging proposal considering the scale of facilities it potentially 
> covers.



yes, I set this up because we discovered here it was missing and you said you 
weren’t interested in providing a proposal, but it does not necessarily 
conflict with lounges, which are more like a restaurant.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have set up 2 new proposals for waiting facilities, waiting room and
> waiting area.
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waiting_area
> and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waiting_room
>

+1
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

Well, certainly, tags are abused all the times, especially when people can't 
find what they want in the editor. This is not the reason I'm thinking of 
changing the proposed tag to something already proposed here, like 
airport_lounge, transport_lounge or waiting_lounge (this might be a bit too 
close to Martin's proposal).
Comments on this are most welcome. 

Anton

12.06.2018, в 13:51, Paul Allen  написал(а):

> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 11:20 AM, Anton Klim  wrote:
>> 
>> Hence why I set out with just amenity=lounge, not realising how many 
>> conflicting meanings people assign to the word, which is why it probably 
>> won't work.
> 
> I know you have already said you think a waiting room is different from your 
> proposal for a lounge and you're not
> interested (at the moment) in tagging for waiting rooms.  However, I can 
> foresee that unless there is
> amenity=waiting_room (or whatever we settle upon) then people WILL abuse 
> amenity=lounge (or whatever we
> settle upon) for waiting rooms.  Most of them won't deliberately intend to 
> abuse the tag, they'll just be
> going for the closest fit to what they're trying to map.  They probably won't 
> look at the wiki page telling them
> it's not for that purpose, it will be what the editor pops up in response to 
> what they're asking for.
> 
> A good rule of thumb: if the mailing list has as many conflicting 
> interpretations/opinions over a tag as this one
> has, it's likely to end up being used incorrectly in practise.  And then, a 
> few years down the line, we'll be looking
> for tagging to replace it.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

Thanks Martin. I feel like this is a separate, but generally more wide-ranging 
proposal considering the scale of facilities it potentially covers. 

Anton

13.06.2018, в 13:43, Martin Koppenhoefer  написал(а):

> I have set up 2 new proposals for waiting facilities, waiting room and 
> waiting area.
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waiting_area
> and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waiting_room
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I have set up 2 new proposals for waiting facilities, waiting room and
waiting area.
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waiting_area
and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waiting_room

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 11:20 AM, Anton Klim  wrote:

>
> Hence why I set out with just amenity=lounge, not realising how many
> conflicting meanings people assign to the word, which is why it probably
> won't work.
>

I know you have already said you think a waiting room is different from
your proposal for a lounge and you're not
interested (at the moment) in tagging for waiting rooms.  However, I can
foresee that unless there is
amenity=waiting_room (or whatever we settle upon) then people WILL abuse
amenity=lounge (or whatever we
settle upon) for waiting rooms.  Most of them won't deliberately intend to
abuse the tag, they'll just be
going for the closest fit to what they're trying to map.  They probably
won't look at the wiki page telling them
it's not for that purpose, it will be what the editor pops up in response
to what they're asking for.

A good rule of thumb: if the mailing list has as many conflicting
interpretations/opinions over a tag as this one
has, it's likely to end up being used incorrectly in practise.  And then, a
few years down the line, we'll be looking
for tagging to replace it.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

Indeed, I am myself somewhat opposed to a qualifier for each type of lounge
out there in the main key.
Hence why I set out with just amenity=lounge, not realising how many
conflicting meanings people assign to the word, which is why it probably
won't work.
In light of this, to avoid ambiguity and confusion, airport_lounge might be
a better option.

I could also potentially see the original amenity=lounge key, used with a
lounge=airport/rail/etc key.

Anton

2018-06-12 0:37 GMT+03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 11. Jun 2018, at 23:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> >> On 10. Jun 2018, at 13:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >>
> >> If proposed as amenity=waiting_room I'd vote for it.  If proposed as
> amenity=lounge I'd vote against it.
> >
> >
> > +1
>
>
> taking it back, sorry. We could probably have all three, waiting room/area
> and lounge.
>
> Maybe waiting_lounge? airport lounge has the disadvantage that it doesn’t
> cover the same concept in train stations. Unlike airports it is not common
> there, but some (major) train stations have those lounges, usually access
> is limited (e.g. first class ticket, or some kind of membership in a
> frequent client program).
>
> While I agree that lounge alone can be ambiguous, the qualifier ideally
> should not be repeating the context but describe the concept, -0.6 to
> airport_lounge.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 11. Jun 2018, at 23:08, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>> On 10. Jun 2018, at 13:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> 
>> If proposed as amenity=waiting_room I'd vote for it.  If proposed as 
>> amenity=lounge I'd vote against it. 
> 
> 
> +1


taking it back, sorry. We could probably have all three, waiting room/area and 
lounge.

Maybe waiting_lounge? airport lounge has the disadvantage that it doesn’t cover 
the same concept in train stations. Unlike airports it is not common there, but 
some (major) train stations have those lounges, usually access is limited (e.g. 
first class ticket, or some kind of membership in a frequent client program).

While I agree that lounge alone can be ambiguous, the qualifier ideally should 
not be repeating the context but describe the concept, -0.6 to airport_lounge.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Jun 2018, at 14:53,  
>  wrote:
> 
> In the context of an airport, a waiting room (or rather, waiting area) is 
> something like this:
> 
>  
> 


indeed, this is a waiting _area_ , both terms are about space dedicated to 
waste time waiting, but they have distinct meaning, rooms are about more 
intimate enclosed spaces, areas are typically open or „feel“ open (space). IMHO 
there is room for both tags, waiting_area and waiting_room.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Jun 2018, at 13:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> If proposed as amenity=waiting_room I'd vote for it.  If proposed as 
> amenity=lounge I'd vote against it. 


+1

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[ael]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 03:12:49PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10 June 2018 14:26:06 BST, ael  wrote:
> >> I am firmly, solidly and unswervingly opposed to "lounge" for this
> >proposal.
> >
> >+1
> >
> >In British English, a lounge first and foremost is a room in a private
> >dwelling. Other uses have "leaked in" from other dialets and while now
> >fairly well understood in a limited number of contexts, they are still
> >unnatural.
> >
> Lounge is very much used in British English to describe the posh carpeted 
> room in a pub. 

I give you that, but note that pubs were originally in private homes :-)

Completely agree that living room is the much preferred term, but lounge
is well understood. 

But I don't want to get lost in philology of which I know little. 
Qualified use like Airport_lounge seems unexceptional.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

 Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions.

I realised I might have bitten a bit too much with this tag, trying to
cover bare-bones waiting area and lounges under one key,
At this stage I am not expanding the tag to waiting rooms at
offices/institutions, rather focusing on the airport/hotel concept.
In light of this, I've also amended the proposed tagging to be more
specific, changing it to *airport_lounge *for the key.
I still feel like amenity is a good fit since it's a place people visit.

Andrew, many thanks for the reminder we have some tags for facilities such
as showers already. How would we go about covering things which are not
already in the scheme, e.g. whether food/drink is offered and of what type?
I don't think cuisine quite covers it.

Anton

2018-06-11 15:23 GMT+03:00 :

> *From:* Stephen Doerr 
> *Sent:* Monday, 11 June 2018 21:18
> *To:* Tag discussion strategy and related tools  >
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges
>
> My experience may be different from yours, but no one I know talks about a
> 'waiting room' in an airport. The general waiting area is quite often
> referred to as the 'departure lounge', in fact.
>
> Agreed. Though despite it being called a “departure lounge” I wouldn’t
> consider that an amenity=lounge. That’s just the airport trying to make
> themselves sound more fancy than they are.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[osm.tagging]

From: Stephen Doerr  
Sent: Monday, 11 June 2018 21:18
To: Tag discussion strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

My experience may be different from yours, but no one I know talks about a 
'waiting room' in an airport. The general waiting area is quite often referred 
to as the 'departure lounge', in fact. 

Agreed. Though despite it being called a “departure lounge” I wouldn’t consider 
that an amenity=lounge. That’s just the airport trying to make themselves sound 
more fancy than they are.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Stephen Doerr 
wrote:

My experience may be different from yours, but no one I know talks about a
> 'waiting room' in an airport. The general waiting area is quite often
> referred to as the 'departure lounge', in fact
>

Yeah, you're right.  However, for general travellers that "departure
lounge" is a waiting room.  Not even a glorified
waiting room.  But marketers had to abuse language (as always) to make it
sound better than it actually is.

Interestingly, a "departure lounge" (for the common herd) doesn't appear to
meet the definition of the proposal for
calling it a lounge.

Yet another problem.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Stephen Doerr]

On 10 June 2018, at 17:05, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>
>On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Yves  wrote:
>

>I doubt you'll find an airport that doesn't have a waiting room/area 
>somewhere.  Probably also a bar or cafe.
>
>Lounges are the expensive places catering to the rich customer 
>(executive-class ticket or money to burn on
>
>food/drink) rather than the ordinary traveller needing a place to sit.

My experience may be different from yours, but no one I know talks about a 
'waiting room' in an airport. The general waiting area is quite often referred 
to as the 'departure lounge', in fact. 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

I’m thinking some of the “passive resistance” could be avoided if we 
expanded/replaced “lounge” with “waiting_room/area”, and shifted tagging to PT 
(makes sense for the original proposal).
I’d argue general tourists can buy into some lounges as well. 

Anton

> 10 июня 2018 г., в 19:15, Johnparis  написал(а):
> 
> this is precisely why I raised the question of whether a lounge is an 
> amenity. it's not open to the general tourist population, for example, like a 
> bank or a pharmacy.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Yves  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>>> Given the definition of an airport lounge given earlier (a waiting room 
>>> reserved for business or first class, operated by airlines company... ), I 
>>> think the concept is fairly concise.
>> 
>> Yes, the concept is concise.  As is my response: why bother?
>>  
>>> Now expanding this to hotels and dentists is not possible and maybe there 
>>> is no need to? 
>>> Stations are more the issue here if there is something there close to the 
>>> airport lounges.
>> 
>> In my youth, almost all railway stations had waiting rooms and none had 
>> lounges (as you intend the term).
>> Decades ago many stations switched to unmanned operation and the waiting 
>> rooms were closed (because of
>> vandalism in unattended stations) and still none had lounges.  These days, a 
>> handful of stations have lounges
>> but are outnumbered by stations with waiting rooms and/or bars/snack 
>> bars/cafes.
>> 
>> I doubt you'll find an airport that doesn't have a waiting room/area 
>> somewhere.  Probably also a bar or cafe.
>> Lounges are the expensive places catering to the rich customer 
>> (executive-class ticket or money to burn on
>> food/drink) rather than the ordinary traveller needing a place to sit.
>> 
>> Waiting rooms are present in hospitals, dentists' and doctors' surgeries.  
>> Also in job centres, council offices
>> and other places.
>> 
>> I can see tagging waiting rooms as being useful to the majority of data 
>> consumers who use those types of
>> organizations, even though those are a minority of data consumers.  This 
>> tagging seems to cater to a
>> minority of a minority.  If that's what you truly intend (it appears that it 
>> is) then I won't oppose it but nor will
>> I support it.  It's entirely possible I'd need to know if a station (or even 
>> airport) has a waiting room.  I don't
>> see me ever needing to know if it has a lounge (and for an airport it would 
>> be a selling feature of the
>> business-class ticket, so I'd know anyway).
>> 
>> So why bother?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Paul
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Johnparis]

this is precisely why I raised the question of whether a lounge is an
amenity. it's not open to the general tourist population, for example, like
a bank or a pharmacy.



On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Yves  wrote:
>
> Given the definition of an airport lounge given earlier (a waiting room
>> reserved for business or first class, operated by airlines company... ), I
>> think the concept is fairly concise.
>>
>
> Yes, the concept is concise.  As is my response: why bother?
>
>
>> Now expanding this to hotels and dentists is not possible and maybe there
>> is no need to?
>> Stations are more the issue here if there is something there close to the
>> airport lounges.
>
>
> In my youth, almost all railway stations had waiting rooms and none had
> lounges (as you intend the term).
> Decades ago many stations switched to unmanned operation and the waiting
> rooms were closed (because of
> vandalism in unattended stations) and still none had lounges.  These days,
> a handful of stations have lounges
> but are outnumbered by stations with waiting rooms and/or bars/snack
> bars/cafes.
>
> I doubt you'll find an airport that doesn't have a waiting room/area
> somewhere.  Probably also a bar or cafe.
> Lounges are the expensive places catering to the rich customer
> (executive-class ticket or money to burn on
> food/drink) rather than the ordinary traveller needing a place to sit.
>
> Waiting rooms are present in hospitals, dentists' and doctors' surgeries.
> Also in job centres, council offices
> and other places.
>
> I can see tagging waiting rooms as being useful to the majority of data
> consumers who use those types of
> organizations, even though those are a minority of data consumers.  This
> tagging seems to cater to a
> minority of a minority.  If that's what you truly intend (it appears that
> it is) then I won't oppose it but nor will
> I support it.  It's entirely possible I'd need to know if a station (or
> even airport) has a waiting room.  I don't
> see me ever needing to know if it has a lounge (and for an airport it
> would be a selling feature of the
> business-class ticket, so I'd know anyway).
>
> So why bother?
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Yves  wrote:

Given the definition of an airport lounge given earlier (a waiting room
> reserved for business or first class, operated by airlines company... ), I
> think the concept is fairly concise.
>

Yes, the concept is concise.  As is my response: why bother?


> Now expanding this to hotels and dentists is not possible and maybe there
> is no need to?
> Stations are more the issue here if there is something there close to the
> airport lounges.


In my youth, almost all railway stations had waiting rooms and none had
lounges (as you intend the term).
Decades ago many stations switched to unmanned operation and the waiting
rooms were closed (because of
vandalism in unattended stations) and still none had lounges.  These days,
a handful of stations have lounges
but are outnumbered by stations with waiting rooms and/or bars/snack
bars/cafes.

I doubt you'll find an airport that doesn't have a waiting room/area
somewhere.  Probably also a bar or cafe.
Lounges are the expensive places catering to the rich customer
(executive-class ticket or money to burn on
food/drink) rather than the ordinary traveller needing a place to sit.

Waiting rooms are present in hospitals, dentists' and doctors' surgeries.
Also in job centres, council offices
and other places.

I can see tagging waiting rooms as being useful to the majority of data
consumers who use those types of
organizations, even though those are a minority of data consumers.  This
tagging seems to cater to a
minority of a minority.  If that's what you truly intend (it appears that
it is) then I won't oppose it but nor will
I support it.  It's entirely possible I'd need to know if a station (or
even airport) has a waiting room.  I don't
see me ever needing to know if it has a lounge (and for an airport it would
be a selling feature of the
business-class ticket, so I'd know anyway).

So why bother?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[osm.tagging]

I fully agree that something like a “normal” waiting area, like the area at the 
gate for an airport, or the waiting room at a hospital, dentist or whatever is 
not a lounge. Nobody proposed to tag these as amenity=lounge.

 

The proposal is for “A distinct tag for lounges, such as those in airports and 
at stations.”

 

and:

 

“Lounges are found not only in airports (although some users might associate 
lounges primarily with airline-branded offerings), but also train/bus stations, 
hotels (often called an "Executive lounge") and ferry terminals. These are 
generally places offering shelter, food/drink, sometimes shower and sleeping 
facilities. A major transport hub can feature a number of lounges.

 

Considering the quantity of such POIs and, often, their importance to a 
traveller, it makes sense to have a custom tag for them. It is an amenity 
distinct from others, despite offering services that can often be associated 
with e.g. a bar, buffet or cafe.”

 

Nowhere here does it say that the waiting room at your local doctor should be 
tagged as an amenity=lounge.

 

But for the things that the proposal specifically targets, amenity=lounge seems 
an adequate label to me.

 

If there is one thing I find objectionable in the proposal, it’s the “A simpler 
lounge at DXB” example. THAT is not something I would consider a lounge. 

 

From: Paul Allen  
Sent: Monday, 11 June 2018 00:56
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

 

 

 

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:20 PM, mailto:osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au> > wrote:


At Stations

The First Class lounges are open Monday to Friday and are a great place to work 
or relax while you're waiting for a train. They offer complimentary 
refreshments, WiFi, fax and phone services are available.

 

Again, these are NOT waiting rooms.  They REQUIRE a purchase for use.  In this 
instance, the purchase of a

first-class ticket.  They cannot be used without payment.

They're an argument for a subtag, perhaps (purchase_required, or free=no or 
some such) but they are not arguments

for tagging waiting rooms amenity=lounge.  Perhaps an argument for 
amenity=lounge as well as
amenity=waiting_room but I suspect that would cause more problems than it 
solves.

I can be convinced.  Point me to evidence of widespread hospital lounges, 
doctors' surgery lounges, dentists'

lounges, etc. and I will change my mind.  Until then, it appears that the vast 
preponderance of waiting rooms

at railway stations compared to a handful of lounges, means that 
amenity=waiting_room is the way to go.

-- 

Paul

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Yves]

Paul,
Given the definition of an airport lounge given earlier (a waiting room 
reserved for business or first class, operated by airlines company... ), I 
think the concept is fairly concise.
Now expanding this to hotels and dentists is not possible and  maybe there is 
no need to? 
Stations are more the issue here if there is something there close to the 
airport lounges.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:20 PM,  wrote:

>
> At Stations
>
> The First Class lounges are open Monday to Friday and are a great place to
> work or relax while you're waiting for a train. They offer complimentary
> refreshments, WiFi, fax and phone services are available.
>

Again, these are NOT waiting rooms.  They REQUIRE a purchase for use.  In
this instance, the purchase of a
first-class ticket.  They cannot be used without payment.

They're an argument for a subtag, perhaps (purchase_required, or free=no or
some such) but they are not arguments
for tagging waiting rooms amenity=lounge.  Perhaps an argument for
amenity=lounge as well as
amenity=waiting_room but I suspect that would cause more problems than it
solves.

I can be convinced.  Point me to evidence of widespread hospital lounges,
doctors' surgery lounges, dentists'
lounges, etc. and I will change my mind.  Until then, it appears that the
vast preponderance of waiting rooms
at railway stations compared to a handful of lounges, means that
amenity=waiting_room is the way to go.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[osm.tagging]

> -Original Message-
> From: ael 
> Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2018 23:26
>
> In British English, a lounge first and foremost is a room in a
> private dwelling. Other uses have "leaked in" from other dialets
> and while now fairly well understood in a limited number of
> contexts, they are still unnatural.

Well, in the context of airports, I've never heard these referred to by any 
other names.

See e.g.:

https://www.gatwickairport.com/at-the-airport/flying-out/Airport-lounges/

or

https://www.heathrow.com/airport-guide/terminal-facilities-and-services/lounges

The term seems also to be common in the context of railways:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/44863.aspx

At Stations

The First Class lounges are open Monday to Friday and are a great place to work 
or relax while you're waiting for a train. They offer complimentary 
refreshments, WiFi, fax and phone services are available.

Lounges are available at:

London's St Pancras International on the upper concourse, near the statue 
of Sir John Betjeman
Nottingham Platform 4 / 5
Derby on Platform 4
Leicester on Platform 3





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[ael]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 01:16:53PM +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 12:40 PM, Yves  wrote:
> 
> > I don't necessarily want to get rid of the word lounge, but an
> > amenity=airport_lounge leaves very little doubt about what it is.
> >
> 
> Actually, it does leave doubt.
> Waiting room, however, is EXACTLY what you want to describe.  Hospitals and
> doctors' surgeries have waiting rooms.
> So do train stations and bus stations.
> 
> I am firmly, solidly and unswervingly opposed to "lounge" for this proposal.

+1

In British English, a lounge first and foremost is a room in a private
dwelling. Other uses have "leaked in" from other dialets and while now
fairly well understood in a limited number of contexts, they are still 
unnatural.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[osm.tagging]

A “waiting room” is something very different from an airport lounge.

 

In the context of an airport, a waiting room (or rather, waiting area) is 
something like this:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Kolkata_Airport_New_Terminal_gate_waiting_area.jpeg

 

They are part of the normal infrastructure of the airport, operated and 
maintained by the airport and accessible to everyone.

 

An airport lounge on the other hand is something like this:

 

https://www.gatwickairport.com/globalassets/passenger-facilities/no1-lounges-gatwick-south-terminal-6.jpg

 

It’s very common for them to be operated by a specific airline or by a company 
that specifically operates one or more airport lounges instead of the airport. 
Entrance is generally limited, by a fee at the entrance, holding the right type 
of ticket from the right airline, membership card, … it varies.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_lounge

 

This is a very specific term for a very specific service.

 

I’m very sure that at any airport in the world, if you are speaking English, 
and ask for the way to the “lounge” after finishing your check-in, the staff 
will politely explain to you how to get the lounge for their airline, bit if 
you ask for the way to the “waiting room”, they’ll either send you off to your 
gate or look at you in incomprehension.

 

 

 

From: Paul Allen  
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2018 22:17
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

 

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 12:40 PM, Yves mailto:yve...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I don't necessarily want to get rid of the word lounge, but an 
amenity=airport_lounge leaves very little doubt about what it is.

 

Actually, it does leave doubt.

Airport lounge as in waiting room?  A place with seats and (maybe) a coffee 
machine but you don't have to

buy anything to sit there?

Or airport lounge as in a bar where you have to buy a drink to sit there?

Lounge, at least in my part of the world (the UK) doesn't mean what you want it 
to mean.  Nor does "airport lounge."

Waiting room, however, is EXACTLY what you want to describe.  Hospitals and 
doctors' surgeries have waiting rooms.
So do train stations and bus stations.

The second-worst thing about airport_lounge is that you'll then need 
train_station_lounge, bus_station_lounge,

hospital_lounge, etc., when they could all be waiting_room because that is what 
those things are called in British

English.  Tell somebody to sit in the hospital lounge and they'll wonder what 
you mean; tell them to sit in the

waiting room and they'll know exactly what you mean.

Perhaps, in your language, lounge is the correct word,  In which case 
translations for editor presets would

use "waiting room" in my language and "lounge" in yours.  The wiki would use 
"waiting room" on the English page
and "lounge" for the same page in your language.  The underlying tag in the 
database, however, would use
"waiting_room."

I am firmly, solidly and unswervingly opposed to "lounge" for this proposal.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 12:40 PM, Yves  wrote:

> I don't necessarily want to get rid of the word lounge, but an
> amenity=airport_lounge leaves very little doubt about what it is.
>

Actually, it does leave doubt.

Airport lounge as in waiting room?  A place with seats and (maybe) a coffee
machine but you don't have to
buy anything to sit there?

Or airport lounge as in a bar where you have to buy a drink to sit there?

Lounge, at least in my part of the world (the UK) doesn't mean what you
want it to mean.  Nor does "airport lounge."
Waiting room, however, is EXACTLY what you want to describe.  Hospitals and
doctors' surgeries have waiting rooms.
So do train stations and bus stations.

The second-worst thing about airport_lounge is that you'll then need
train_station_lounge, bus_station_lounge,
hospital_lounge, etc., when they could all be waiting_room because that is
what those things are called in British
English.  Tell somebody to sit in the hospital lounge and they'll wonder
what you mean; tell them to sit in the
waiting room and they'll know exactly what you mean.

Perhaps, in your language, lounge is the correct word,  In which case
translations for editor presets would
use "waiting room" in my language and "lounge" in yours.  The wiki would
use "waiting room" on the English page
and "lounge" for the same page in your language.  The underlying tag in the
database, however, would use
"waiting_room."

I am firmly, solidly and unswervingly opposed to "lounge" for this proposal.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Yves]

I don't necessarily want to get rid of the word lounge, but an 
amenity=airport_lounge leaves very little doubt about what it is.

Yves

Le 10 juin 2018 13:28:17 GMT+02:00, Paul Allen  a écrit :
>On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:03 AM, Yves  wrote:
>
>> I would expect a 'lounge' in an hotel as a cosy bar.
>>
>
>Or some sort of posh tea room.  The word "lounge," to me, very strongly
>implies the supply of some sort of
>service that one has to pay for, and it is not a place one can use
>without
>a purchase.  That's simply how the word
>tends to be used in the UK.
>
>
>> I don't think the term 'lounge' is sufficient for airports / station
>/
>> hotel lounges nor that it's a good idea to have a same general tag
>for them.
>>
>
>I agree.  What is being proposed is a tag for a waiting room.  I think
>it's
>useful to have such a tag.  When planning
>a journey it's nice to know if a railway/bus station where one has to
>wait
>for a connection has a waiting room.
>Especially in cold weather.
>
>It is also my very strong opinion that tags should follow natural
>language
>usage.  Because if they do not then
>ambiguity will arise and people who don't check the wiki will make
>natural
>assumptions which turn out to be
>incorrect.  We've seen this in at least two recent discussions: tags
>that
>are being used to mean two different
>things because they were not chosen with natural usage in mind (the
>most
>recent being landuse=forest to
>mean land where forestry takes place and land with trees on but no
>forestry
>takes place).
>
>If proposed as amenity=waiting_room I'd vote for it.  If proposed as
>amenity=lounge I'd vote against it.  Others
>may, of course, take a different stance.
>
>
>> For me, what all lounges have in common is sorts of armchairs as
>> furnitures.
>>
>
>For me it's that a purchase is necessary.  I'd hope for comfortable
>furniture in a lounge, but these days "artistic"
>is often chosen by operators rather than "comfortable."
>
>-- 
>Paul

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:03 AM, Yves  wrote:

> I would expect a 'lounge' in an hotel as a cosy bar.
>

Or some sort of posh tea room.  The word "lounge," to me, very strongly
implies the supply of some sort of
service that one has to pay for, and it is not a place one can use without
a purchase.  That's simply how the word
tends to be used in the UK.


> I don't think the term 'lounge' is sufficient for airports / station /
> hotel lounges nor that it's a good idea to have a same general tag for them.
>

I agree.  What is being proposed is a tag for a waiting room.  I think it's
useful to have such a tag.  When planning
a journey it's nice to know if a railway/bus station where one has to wait
for a connection has a waiting room.
Especially in cold weather.

It is also my very strong opinion that tags should follow natural language
usage.  Because if they do not then
ambiguity will arise and people who don't check the wiki will make natural
assumptions which turn out to be
incorrect.  We've seen this in at least two recent discussions: tags that
are being used to mean two different
things because they were not chosen with natural usage in mind (the most
recent being landuse=forest to
mean land where forestry takes place and land with trees on but no forestry
takes place).

If proposed as amenity=waiting_room I'd vote for it.  If proposed as
amenity=lounge I'd vote against it.  Others
may, of course, take a different stance.


> For me, what all lounges have in common is sorts of armchairs as
> furnitures.
>

For me it's that a purchase is necessary.  I'd hope for comfortable
furniture in a lounge, but these days "artistic"
is often chosen by operators rather than "comfortable."

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Yves]

I would expect a 'lounge' in an hotel as a cosy bar.
I don't think the term 'lounge' is sufficient for airports / station / hotel 
lounges nor that it's a good idea to have a same general tag for them.
See also the term 'lounger' discussed recently here.
For me, what all lounges have in common is sorts of armchairs as furnitures.
Yves

Le 10 juin 2018 07:16:53 GMT+02:00, Anton Klim  a écrit :
>There are hotel lounges that offer showering facilities, but to access
>these lounges (executive lounges, clubs - they are called different
>names), you normally need to check in/be of elite status (hence the
>need for an access scheme described in the RFP). There are usually
>various amenities (food/drink/wlan) provided, if not showers, so a
>separate tagging scheme as suggested would be more convenient, rather
>than lounge=yes on the main node.
>
>I feel like making this a PT tag limits it quite a bit, since some of
>these are a bit more than just a waiting room. Although admittedly most
>are connected to (public) transport, having a universal tag seems to
>allow better coverage overall. 
>
>Anton
>
>> 10/06/2018, 4:33, Johnparis :
>> 
>> I would think hotel lounges don't qualify, then, under what you're
>describing. I've never seen one that offers showers. Hotel lounges are
>just alcoholic bars in a hotel. You want a shower, you have to check in
>to the hotel.
>> 
>> As a node or area (room?) within a public_transport=station, it makes
>sense to me. I'd limit it to those. 
>> 
>> Are they really amenities? Maybe public_transport=lounge? Or
>public_transport=station + lounge=yes ? Either way you would have the
>option of wlan=yes/no, shower=yes/no, etc., though with the latter it's
>not clear whether those options apply only within the lounge. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Anton Klim 
>wrote:
>>> Thanks for the reply Volker!
>>> 
>>> I had in mind a tag to describe the first 2 of the definitions given
>by you (a hotel “lounge” in my mind is more like an airport lounge than
>a plain lobby). 
>>> For alcoholic bars the current tagging scheme appears sufficient so
>I didn’t mean to cover that. That is not to say that there isn’t
>alcohol served at the other 2 types of “lounges”.
>>> I believe a general approach might be too complicated/convoluted,
>especially in the case of waiting rooms at gov offices and the like -
>more indoor mapping territory to me. 
>>> The proposal was designed to cover all the other, usually
>transport-related glorified waiting rooms/lounges. It can be used for
>simple waiting rooms, but is really useful for lounges with added
>amenities, e.g showers, food.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Anton
>>> 
>>> 9/06/2018, 22:20, Volker Schmidt :
>>> 
 The term Lounge has several distinct meanings, amongst them
 Airport Lounge
 Hotel Lobby
 Alcohol Bar
 
 Which one do you have in mind?
 
 If the first one, then maybe a more general approach should be
>taken to deal with all kinds of waiting rooms (at a train station, at a
>bus station, at airports, at a medical facility, at the tax office, ...
 An Airport Lounge is more or less modelled on a first-class
>train-station waiting room. 
 
 
 
> On 9 June 2018 at 14:02, Anton Klim  wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> 
> A prolonged waiting period spend sitting in a lounge gave me an
>opportunity to send out the draft proposal for lounges, which can be
>found here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lounges
> 
> What is proposed:
> A distinct amenity=* value for lounges ( Lounge), usually used to
>describe a comfortable waiting area with optional food/drink/other
>facilities, is proposed. 
> 
> I was quite surprised to see no tag was already in wide use/agreed
>on, but happy to be proven wrong if I missed it.
> As usual with these things, suggestions/comments are very welcome.
> 
> Have a good weekend,  
> Anton
> 
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

There are hotel lounges that offer showering facilities, but to access these 
lounges (executive lounges, clubs - they are called different names), you 
normally need to check in/be of elite status (hence the need for an access 
scheme described in the RFP). There are usually various amenities 
(food/drink/wlan) provided, if not showers, so a separate tagging scheme as 
suggested would be more convenient, rather than lounge=yes on the main node.

I feel like making this a PT tag limits it quite a bit, since some of these are 
a bit more than just a waiting room. Although admittedly most are connected to 
(public) transport, having a universal tag seems to allow better coverage 
overall. 

Anton

> 10/06/2018, 4:33, Johnparis :
> 
> I would think hotel lounges don't qualify, then, under what you're 
> describing. I've never seen one that offers showers. Hotel lounges are just 
> alcoholic bars in a hotel. You want a shower, you have to check in to the 
> hotel.
> 
> As a node or area (room?) within a public_transport=station, it makes sense 
> to me. I'd limit it to those. 
> 
> Are they really amenities? Maybe public_transport=lounge? Or 
> public_transport=station + lounge=yes ? Either way you would have the option 
> of wlan=yes/no, shower=yes/no, etc., though with the latter it's not clear 
> whether those options apply only within the lounge. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Anton Klim  wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply Volker!
>> 
>> I had in mind a tag to describe the first 2 of the definitions given by you 
>> (a hotel “lounge” in my mind is more like an airport lounge than a plain 
>> lobby). 
>> For alcoholic bars the current tagging scheme appears sufficient so I didn’t 
>> mean to cover that. That is not to say that there isn’t alcohol served at 
>> the other 2 types of “lounges”.
>> I believe a general approach might be too complicated/convoluted, especially 
>> in the case of waiting rooms at gov offices and the like - more indoor 
>> mapping territory to me. 
>> The proposal was designed to cover all the other, usually transport-related 
>> glorified waiting rooms/lounges. It can be used for simple waiting rooms, 
>> but is really useful for lounges with added amenities, e.g showers, food.
>> 
>> 
>> Anton
>> 
>> 9/06/2018, 22:20, Volker Schmidt :
>> 
>>> The term Lounge has several distinct meanings, amongst them
>>> Airport Lounge
>>> Hotel Lobby
>>> Alcohol Bar
>>> 
>>> Which one do you have in mind?
>>> 
>>> If the first one, then maybe a more general approach should be taken to 
>>> deal with all kinds of waiting rooms (at a train station, at a bus station, 
>>> at airports, at a medical facility, at the tax office, ...
>>> An Airport Lounge is more or less modelled on a first-class train-station 
>>> waiting room. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 9 June 2018 at 14:02, Anton Klim  wrote:
 Hey everyone,
 
 A prolonged waiting period spend sitting in a lounge gave me an 
 opportunity to send out the draft proposal for lounges, which can be found 
 here:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lounges
 
 What is proposed:
 A distinct amenity=* value for lounges ( Lounge), usually used to describe 
 a comfortable waiting area with optional food/drink/other facilities, is 
 proposed. 
 
 I was quite surprised to see no tag was already in wide use/agreed on, but 
 happy to be proven wrong if I missed it.
 As usual with these things, suggestions/comments are very welcome.
 
 Have a good weekend,  
 Anton
 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Johnparis]

I would think hotel lounges don't qualify, then, under what you're
describing. I've never seen one that offers showers. Hotel lounges are just
alcoholic bars in a hotel. You want a shower, you have to check in to the
hotel.

As a node or area (room?) within a public_transport=station, it makes sense
to me. I'd limit it to those.

Are they really amenities? Maybe public_transport=lounge? Or
public_transport=station + lounge=yes ? Either way you would have the
option of wlan=yes/no, shower=yes/no, etc., though with the latter it's not
clear whether those options apply only within the lounge.




On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Anton Klim  wrote:

> Thanks for the reply Volker!
>
> I had in mind a tag to describe the first 2 of the definitions given by
> you (a hotel “lounge” in my mind is more like an airport lounge than a
> plain lobby).
> For alcoholic bars the current tagging scheme appears sufficient so I
> didn’t mean to cover that. That is not to say that there isn’t alcohol
> served at the other 2 types of “lounges”.
> I believe a general approach might be too complicated/convoluted,
> especially in the case of waiting rooms at gov offices and the like - more
> indoor mapping territory to me.
> The proposal was designed to cover all the other, usually
> transport-related glorified waiting rooms/lounges. It can be used for
> simple waiting rooms, but is really useful for lounges with added
> amenities, e.g showers, food.
>
>
> Anton
>
> 9/06/2018, 22:20, Volker Schmidt :
>
> The term Lounge has several distinct meanings, amongst them
> Airport Lounge
> Hotel Lobby
> Alcohol Bar
>
> Which one do you have in mind?
>
> If the first one, then maybe a more general approach should be taken to
> deal with all kinds of waiting rooms (at a train station, at a bus station,
> at airports, at a medical facility, at the tax office, ...
> An Airport Lounge is more or less modelled on a first-class train-station
> waiting room.
>
>
>
> On 9 June 2018 at 14:02, Anton Klim  wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> A prolonged waiting period spend sitting in a lounge gave me an
>> opportunity to send out the draft proposal for lounges, which can be found
>> here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lounges
>>
>> What is proposed:
>> A distinct amenity =* value
>> for lounges ([image: [W]] Lounge ),
>> usually used to describe a comfortable waiting area with optional
>> food/drink/other facilities, is proposed.
>>
>> I was quite surprised to see no tag was already in wide use/agreed on,
>> but happy to be proven wrong if I missed it.
>> As usual with these things, suggestions/comments are very welcome.
>>
>> Have a good weekend,
>> Anton
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

Thanks for the reply Volker!

I had in mind a tag to describe the first 2 of the definitions given by you (a 
hotel “lounge” in my mind is more like an airport lounge than a plain lobby). 
For alcoholic bars the current tagging scheme appears sufficient so I didn’t 
mean to cover that. That is not to say that there isn’t alcohol served at the 
other 2 types of “lounges”.
I believe a general approach might be too complicated/convoluted, especially in 
the case of waiting rooms at gov offices and the like - more indoor mapping 
territory to me. 
The proposal was designed to cover all the other, usually transport-related 
glorified waiting rooms/lounges. It can be used for simple waiting rooms, but 
is really useful for lounges with added amenities, e.g showers, food.


Anton

> 9/06/2018, 22:20, Volker Schmidt :
> 
> The term Lounge has several distinct meanings, amongst them
> Airport Lounge
> Hotel Lobby
> Alcohol Bar
> 
> Which one do you have in mind?
> 
> If the first one, then maybe a more general approach should be taken to deal 
> with all kinds of waiting rooms (at a train station, at a bus station, at 
> airports, at a medical facility, at the tax office, ...
> An Airport Lounge is more or less modelled on a first-class train-station 
> waiting room. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 9 June 2018 at 14:02, Anton Klim  wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>> 
>> A prolonged waiting period spend sitting in a lounge gave me an opportunity 
>> to send out the draft proposal for lounges, which can be found here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lounges
>> 
>> What is proposed:
>> A distinct amenity=* value for lounges ( Lounge), usually used to describe a 
>> comfortable waiting area with optional food/drink/other facilities, is 
>> proposed. 
>> 
>> I was quite surprised to see no tag was already in wide use/agreed on, but 
>> happy to be proven wrong if I missed it.
>> As usual with these things, suggestions/comments are very welcome.
>> 
>> Have a good weekend,  
>> Anton
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Volker Schmidt]

The term Lounge has several distinct meanings, amongst them
Airport Lounge
Hotel Lobby
Alcohol Bar

Which one do you have in mind?

If the first one, then maybe a more general approach should be taken to
deal with all kinds of waiting rooms (at a train station, at a bus station,
at airports, at a medical facility, at the tax office, ...
An Airport Lounge is more or less modelled on a first-class train-station
waiting room.



On 9 June 2018 at 14:02, Anton Klim  wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> A prolonged waiting period spend sitting in a lounge gave me an
> opportunity to send out the draft proposal for lounges, which can be found
> here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lounges
>
> What is proposed:
> A distinct amenity =* value
> for lounges ([image: [W]] Lounge ),
> usually used to describe a comfortable waiting area with optional
> food/drink/other facilities, is proposed.
>
> I was quite surprised to see no tag was already in wide use/agreed on, but
> happy to be proven wrong if I missed it.
> As usual with these things, suggestions/comments are very welcome.
>
> Have a good weekend,
> Anton
>
> ___
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Lounges

[Anton Klim]

Hey everyone,

A prolonged waiting period spend sitting in a lounge gave me an opportunity
to send out the draft proposal for lounges, which can be found here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Lounges

What is proposed:
A distinct amenity =* value
for lounges ([image: [W]] Lounge ),
usually used to describe a comfortable waiting area with optional
food/drink/other facilities, is proposed.

I was quite surprised to see no tag was already in wide use/agreed on, but
happy to be proven wrong if I missed it.
As usual with these things, suggestions/comments are very welcome.

Have a good weekend,
Anton
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