Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi Chris,

I am not a member of talk-GB, could you please post a link to this
discussion and ask the mappers to review the remaining 
highway=traffic_calming nodes in GB?

thanks,
Gerd



Von: Chris Hill 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:34
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

On 20/11/15 15:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
>
I asked Gerd to revert the edit simply because it was an undiscussed
mechanical edit, for which Gerd has acknowledged and apologised (thanks
Gerd). I would like to add that discussion on this list may reach a
conclusion about the tags used (if we're lucky), but that still will not
be a suitable place to discuss a mechanical edit. Gerd's link is to an
edit across much of GB, so it needs to be discussed *and* agreed with GB
mappers. I would suggest that GB mechanical edits need to be discussed
on talk-GB and / or the #osm-gb irc channel. Similar mechanical edits in
other countries or areas need to be similarly discussed and agreed in
appropriate lists and channels too.

--
Cheers, Chris (chillly)


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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

I think what Gerd is saying is that if we deprecate the use of
highway=traffic_calming and instead tag each way segment with just
traffic_calming=* (or simply use a node in those case where the structure
of the device is short), we would eliminate the issue where, for example, a
secondary highway changes to highway=traffic_calming, and then back to
highway=secondary, then back to highway=traffic_calming, and back
to highway=secondary, etc.

Eliminating the highway=traffic_calming tag and using *only* the
traffic_calming=* tag for those sections would be a better way to handle
them.

I'm starting to agree with him.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 8:19 AM, John Willis  wrote:

>
>
> Javbw
>
> > On Nov 22, 2015, at 9:35 AM, John Willis  wrote:
> >
> > large sections of them on rural roads before dangerous curves
>
> These are heavily signed as being dangerous to fast moving motorcycles in
> the curves, so they are a good thing to map. They have them there to make
> the motorcyclists slow down on the roads (per the warning signs I have
> seen).
>
> These are what I would map as way segments.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/Mz26VkaF6j62
>
> Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Nov 22, 2015, at 9:35 AM, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> large sections of them on rural roads before dangerous curves

These are heavily signed as being dangerous to fast moving motorcycles in the 
curves, so they are a good thing to map. They have them there to make the 
motorcyclists slow down on the roads (per the warning signs I have seen).

These are what I would map as way segments. 

https://goo.gl/maps/Mz26VkaF6j62

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[John Willis]

Besides the way segmentation, which I don't care about at all (because it more 
accurately reflects the realities of the road) - does tagging a way segment 
with traffic_calming=* present a problem? I realize then I can't use 
highway=traffic_calming on the way (because it is already highway=secondary or 
something), but it is a better representation of the road.

If I have 25-50m of rumble strips, isn't it better to map that 1 time on a way 
segment, instead of having 200 points marking each individual strip? 

There are individual rumble strips (or very small sets) on the motorways to 
warn of tollbooths, but there are very large sections of them on rural roads 
before dangerous curves. 


> On Nov 22, 2015, at 1:07 AM, Gerd Petermann  
> wrote:
> 
> In case of Japan my opinion is that it would be better to invest the time 
> into the existing big alignment problems caused by imports and "bad" Bing
> images.

I map where I have visited, and where imagery allows. Thus, I have tried 
mapping (forgotten) rural towns in mountainous Areas that usually have horrible 
imagery. This allows me to have a good idea of how to interpret ambiguous arial 
imagery. I try to map it as detailed as the imagery allows.

For popular places, I micromap objects at tourist locations as much as I can. 

Currently, the only traffic calming devices I have found are rumble strips, 
humps, and pinch points. I have not seen a table yet. 

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.11.2015 um 17:07 schrieb Gerd Petermann 
> :
> 
> As I said, I have no problem with them. The important part is 
> that you don't cut e.g. a highway=secondary into small fragments with
> alternating highway=traffic_calming,highway=secondary,
> highway=traffic_calming,
> highway=secondary, ...


I also believe we should deprecate using the highway key for traffic calming 
and instead suggest to use traffic_calming

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.11.2015 um 17:07 schrieb Gerd Petermann 
> :
> 
> Some mappers see way segmentation as a problem, esp. when it comes to
> waterways.
> As I said, I have no problem with them.


with the current model, way fragmentation is unavoidable when people add a lot 
of details to a way. There's no big problem resulting from this, besides that 
more details mostly make the map more complex hence harder to edit.

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

John Willis wrote
>> On Nov 22, 2015, at 12:16 AM, Gerd Petermann <

> gpetermann_muenchen@

> > wrote:
>> 
>> highway=traffic_calming for the small way segments when we tell them
>> to use it for nodes. My understanding is that this is not wanted.
> 
> I have a question about this. 
> 
> If I am mapping from the newest  ~5cm imagery in Tokyo, I can draw the
> exact boundaries of roadway, islands, fences, and hedges. I can mark
> crosswalks exactly where they start and end, where every limit line for a
> signal is, and the exact position of bollards, light poles and individual
> rocks In a pond. 
> 
> If a traffic calming device, like a table or chicane is is meters wide,
> and affects an easily mappable section of a road - why is adding it to a
> way segment bad? I would assume (without understanding the downside) that
> I would be doing a better job of mapping it than with just a node -
> especially if the road has two way traffic on a single way. 
> 
> I am a total noob on why a way would be bad - can someone explain it or
> point me to the proper wiki page for it?

You cited only the last part of my statement:
"I don't fear the way segmentation, I fear that mappers use 
highway=traffic_calming for the small way segments when we tell them 
to use it for nodes. My understanding is that this is not wanted. "

Some mappers see way segmentation as a problem, esp. when it comes to
waterways.
As I said, I have no problem with them. The important part is 
that you don't cut e.g. a highway=secondary into small fragments with
alternating highway=traffic_calming,highway=secondary,
highway=traffic_calming,
highway=secondary, ...

Besides that the so-called micro mapping is not welcomed by some mappers
because 
it is likely to produce lots of small objects which make editing more
difficult (you have
to zoom in to be able to select the wanted object) .

In case of Japan my opinion is that it would be better to invest the time 
into the existing big alignment problems caused by imports and "bad" Bing
images.

Gerd 



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[John Willis]

> On Nov 22, 2015, at 12:16 AM, Gerd Petermann 
>  wrote:
> 
> highway=traffic_calming for the small way segments when we tell them
> to use it for nodes. My understanding is that this is not wanted.

I have a question about this. 

If I am mapping from the newest  ~5cm imagery in Tokyo, I can draw the exact 
boundaries of roadway, islands, fences, and hedges. I can mark crosswalks 
exactly where they start and end, where every limit line for a signal is, and 
the exact position of bollards, light poles and individual rocks In a pond. 

If a traffic calming device, like a table or chicane is is meters wide, and 
affects an easily mappable section of a road - why is adding it to a way 
segment bad? I would assume (without understanding the downside) that I would 
be doing a better job of mapping it than with just a node - especially if the 
road has two way traffic on a single way. 

I am a total noob on why a way would be bad - can someone explain it or point 
me to the proper wiki page for it?

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Dave Swarthout wrote
> *If we move traffic_calming to the "Other highway features"category we
> will
> probably see more ways segmented into highway=residentialand
> highway=traffic_calming bits, and I think that would be a step back.My
> conclusion so far: the wiki is missleading and most mappers have learnedto
> use traffic_calming=* without highway=traffic_calming, so I suggest to add
> asimilar hint for deprecated tagging to the traffic_calming page*
> 
> I reckon I wouldn't have a problem with doing that. I have always used
> only
> a node for the traffic_calming devices I've encountered but I can see how
> splitting a way to make it a table or chicane might be problematical. But
> then how would one tag a traffic_calming method that is not a node but a
> section of the highway with some non-zero length?

We already have ~16000 ways tagged traffic_calming, I don't think
that they cause problems.
I don't fear the way segmentation, I fear that mappers use 
highway=traffic_calming for the small way segments when we tell them
to use it for nodes. My understanding is that this is not wanted.

Gerd (GerdP)



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 3:51 AM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:
>
> I reckon I wouldn't have a problem with doing that. I have always used
> only a node for the traffic_calming devices I've encountered but I can see
> how splitting a way to make it a table or chicane might be problematical.
> But then how would one tag a traffic_calming method that is not a node but
> a section of the highway with some non-zero length?
>

At some point, the traffic calming features just become part of the street,
such as that one block of Lombard Street
 in San Francisco that has 8
chicanes in one block.
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

*If we move traffic_calming to the "Other highway features"category we will
probably see more ways segmented into highway=residentialand
highway=traffic_calming bits, and I think that would be a step back.My
conclusion so far: the wiki is missleading and most mappers have learnedto
use traffic_calming=* without highway=traffic_calming, so I suggest to add
asimilar hint for deprecated tagging to the traffic_calming page*

I reckon I wouldn't have a problem with doing that. I have always used only
a node for the traffic_calming devices I've encountered but I can see how
splitting a way to make it a table or chicane might be problematical. But
then how would one tag a traffic_calming method that is not a node but a
section of the highway with some non-zero length?

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Gerd Petermann <
>> gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, of course diversity in tagging is a problem. For each data consumer
>>> and
>>> for each new mapper who tries to find out how to map something so that
>>> their
>>> preferred OSM-data-consuming-program is understanding the data.
>>> The problem exists and causes lots of work.
>>>
>>
> My last message got partly lost:
>
> I agree. I served as a librarian for a while in a small city library. I
> rebelled against strict adherence to the cataloging schemes all American
> libraries use, either the Library of Congress Subject Headings or the older
> Dewey Decimal System. But the reasons for this are to enhance the ability
> to search and find books by subject. If anyone can use any subject they
> like, it would be chaos. OSM is tending to go that way.
>
> Now that I am writing my own style rules it vexes me that I have to write
> complex rules in order to take into account all the various tags folks have
> come up with to describe objects in the manner they like.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Gerd Petermann <
> gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, of course diversity in tagging is a problem. For each data consumer
>> and
>> for each new mapper who tries to find out how to map something so that
>> their
>> preferred OSM-data-consuming-program is understanding the data.
>> The problem exists and causes lots of work.
>>
>
My last message got partly lost:

I agree. I served as a librarian for a while in a small city library. I
rebelled against strict adherence to the cataloging schemes all American
libraries use, either the Library of Congress Subject Headings or the older
Dewey Decimal System. But the reasons for this are to enhance the ability
to search and find books by subject. If anyone can use any subject they
like, it would be chaos. OSM is tending to go that way.

Now that I am writing my own style rules it vexes me that I have to write
complex rules in order to take into account all the various tags folks have
come up with to describe objects in the manner they like.




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Colin Smale]

 

+1 to that. 

On 2015-11-21 10:15, Dave Swarthout wrote: 

> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Gerd Petermann 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Well, of course diversity in tagging is a problem. For each data consumer
>> and
>> for each new mapper who tries to find out how to map something so that their
>> preferred OSM-data-consuming-program is understanding the data.
>> The problem exists and causes lots of work.
> 
> I agree. I served as a librarian for a while in a small city library. At 
> first I rebelled against strict adherence to the cataloging schemes all 
> American libraries use, either the Library of Congress Subjects headings or 
> the older Dewey Decimal System. But the reasons for using controlled headings 
> is to prevent the sort of chaotic system that OSM has become.  
> 
> Now that I'm making my own maps and writing style rules it bugs me that I 
> have to make complex rules for all the "special tags" folks have put into use 
> over the years. Yikes, if there is no control at all, how will future 
> renderers and end users deal with the mess? It's fine to say don't map for 
> the renderer but let's be realistic, if none of this ever gets rendered it's 
> merely a database of numerical data.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Well, of course diversity in tagging is a problem. For each data consumer
> and
> for each new mapper who tries to find out how to map something so that
> their
> preferred OSM-data-consuming-program is understanding the data.
> The problem exists and causes lots of work.
>

I agree. I served as a librarian for a while in a small city library. I
rebelled against strict adherence to the cataloging schemes all American
libraries use, either the Library of Congress Subjects headings or the
older Dewey Decimal System. But the reasons for


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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Dave Swarthout wrote
> Sorry all. I'm on Thailand time and had to sleep.
> 
> The highway=traffic_calming key is found on the top level highway page
> here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway. On that page a link
> to the types of traffic_calming device appears:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming.
> 
> I assume they are to be used together. As I said earlier, one could make
> an
> argument for skipping the highway=traffic_calming key but as it stands
> now,
> I think the two go together. YMMV

I think that is exactly the logic that I meant when I wrote that the wiki is  
missleading. 
a) The page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway
lists traffic_calming in a category called "Attributes", together with
tags like ford, incline, surface etc.. 
b) There is another group titled "Other highway features" which contains
eg. highway=crossing, highway=elevator, highway=stop etc.

If I follow your logic I would have to use highway=ford, ford=yes for a node
that marks a ford, but http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ford
tells me that highway=ford is deprecated, see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ford#Deprecated_Tags
We still have ~ 5700 nodes tagged highway=ford and ~100 ways with
highway=ford, 
the number are decreasing slowly during the last 28 days.

If we move traffic_calming to the "Other highway features" 
category we will probably see more ways segmented into highway=residential
and highway=traffic_calming bits, and I think that would be a step back.

My conclusion so far: the wiki is missleading and most mappers have learned
to use
traffic_calming=* without highway=traffic_calming, so I suggest to add a
similar hint
for deprecated tagging to 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming 
as it is used for fords.

Gerd (GerdP)




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Well, of course diversity in tagging is a problem. For each data consumer
> and
> for each new mapper who tries to find out how to map something so that
> their
> preferred OSM-data-consuming-program is understanding the data.
> The problem exists and causes lots of work.
>

I agree. I served as a librarian for a while in a small city library. At
first I rebelled against strict adherence to the cataloging schemes all
American libraries use, either the Library of Congress Subjects headings or
the older Dewey Decimal System. But the reasons for using controlled
headings is to prevent the sort of chaotic system that OSM has become.

Now that I'm making my own maps and writing style rules it bugs me that I
have to make complex rules for all the "special tags" folks have put into
use over the years. Yikes, if there is no control at all, how will future
renderers and end users deal with the mess? It's fine to say don't map for
the renderer but let's be realistic, if none of this ever gets rendered
it's merely a database of numerical data.


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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Paul Johnson-3 wrote
>> >
>> Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.
>>
>> Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
>> highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.
>>
> 
> Where are you getting this impression from?  None of the JOSM presets, the
> wiki, common usage, or how Osmand interprets this feature seem to back
> this
> up...
> 
> There's 99 cases of highway=traffic_calming in taginfo, and 212,950 cases
> of traffic_calming=*

Well, to be fair, it was 940 cases yesterday before I started to mop up,
that's why I've put the numbers in the 1st post.
Besides that: +1

Gerd (GerdP)




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

>I haven't seen humps that have crossings on them, but I have seen tables


Yes, that is what I was referring to. I called them 'humps" in my hurry to
get my reply off but they are more properly called "tables" and Eugene is
the only place I've seen them. I don't think I've ever tagged any, so far,
but that might change when I next visit.

Cheers,
Dave

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 3:29 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few traffic_calming
>> "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in Eugene, Oregon, but
>> they are unusual, not the normal case.
>
>
> I haven't seen humps that have crossings on them, but I have seen tables
> (Broken Arrow, Oklahoma has an annoyingly large number of tables at
> pedestrian crossings, in a couple situations actually damming intersections
> from draining in the rain...oops!).  The difference is subtle but
> significant.  Bumps are typically the small, sharp things you find in
> parking lots; humps being the big cousin to those you find as a misguided
> substitute for cushions or chicanes; cushions are humps with gaps for
> bicycles and fire trucks to fit through unimpeded; and tables are humps
> with flat tops, usually curb-height and just long enough to sit level on in
> most full size cars.
>



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Chris Hill-6 wrote
> On 20/11/15 16:47, Gerd Petermann wrote:
>>
>> So you think that every node tagged traffic_calming=* should
>>
>> additionally be tagged with highway=traffic_calming?
>>
>> That would mean  we have >99% traffic_calming nodes with
>>
>> incorrect tagging.
>>
>>
>>
> I think you misunderstand OSM. Your assumption of incorrect tagging is 
> wrong. There is a diversity of tagging. That is how OSM works. Some will 
> say 'how will data consumers deal with this muddle?'. That question is 
> usually asked by people who have not tried to use OSM data. People who 
> use OSM data know that it *always* needs processing to be useful for the 
> particular use it is being put to. Dealing with that diversity is part 
> of this processing and not especially difficult nor does it add much to 
> the process. Anyone who has written such a process to do this then has a 
> template to do this again easily.

Sure, as a co-developer of mkgmap (1) I am very familiar with the process
of consuming OSM data. I also understand that it requires years to establish
a
new tagging scheme. 
I think one problem here is that you list these arguments for a change that 
happened far back in history. 
1) Most of the ~100 nodes with the 
highway=traffic_calming and no traffic_calming=* tag were last changed 
before 2014, 
2) most of those nodes with both highway=traffic_calming and
traffic_calming=*
were first mapped with highway=traffic_calming and later the tag
traffic_calming=*
was added.
3) nearly all traffic_calming=* mapped in 2015 do not have the
highway=traffic_calming=*
tag.
I don't want to stop or change this process (although this discussion seems
to lead that way).


Chris Hill-6 wrote
> Diversity in tagging is not a problem. Mechanical edits that destroy 
> detail or upset precious mappers who have their carefully chosen tagging 
> replaced by a remote person are a problem.

Well, of course diversity in tagging is a problem. For each data consumer
and
for each new mapper who tries to find out how to map something so that their
preferred OSM-data-consuming-program is understanding the data.
The problem exists and causes lots of work. 
Diversity in tagging is also a basic feature of OSM and I think it is a good
way to
find out how real world elements can be described with abstract attributes.

My understanding is that this is a process and that the result of the
process 
can be a well established tagging scheme with few special cases  - I think 
traffic_calming=* is one of those - or total chaos as we have with 
highway=path/footway/track  or residential/unclassified.

(1) http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Philip Barnes 
wrote:

> On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 11:22 -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> > A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is
> > not uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in
> > residential areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to
> > address the combined issue of traffic calming and pedestrian
> > crossing.
> >
> >
> Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.
>
> Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
> highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.
>

Where are you getting this impression from?  None of the JOSM presets, the
wiki, common usage, or how Osmand interprets this feature seem to back this
up...

There's 99 cases of highway=traffic_calming in taginfo, and 212,950 cases
of traffic_calming=*
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:41 AM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few traffic_calming
> "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in Eugene, Oregon, but
> they are unusual, not the normal case.


I haven't seen humps that have crossings on them, but I have seen tables
(Broken Arrow, Oklahoma has an annoyingly large number of tables at
pedestrian crossings, in a couple situations actually damming intersections
from draining in the rain...oops!).  The difference is subtle but
significant.  Bumps are typically the small, sharp things you find in
parking lots; humps being the big cousin to those you find as a misguided
substitute for cushions or chicanes; cushions are humps with gaps for
bicycles and fire trucks to fit through unimpeded; and tables are humps
with flat tops, usually curb-height and just long enough to sit level on in
most full size cars.
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Rafael Avila Coya 
wrote:

> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514


Traffic calming goes in the traffic_calming=* key, not the highway=* key.
So, a raised pedestrian crossing would be something  like highway=crossing,
traffic_calming=table.
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Dave F. wrote
> Why is your display name different for what appears to be the exact same 
> email address? So bloody annoying

Yes, and I hope that I've now found the right way to change that.
I often use the GIS interface to write posts as it is much easier to use
then the interface provided by Microsofts outlook.com. 
If I did it right, this post should appear as "Gerd Petermann"

ciao,
Gerd (GerdP)





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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

Sorry all. I'm on Thailand time and had to sleep.

The highway=traffic_calming key is found on the top level highway page
here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway. On that page a link
to the types of traffic_calming device appears:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming.

I assume they are to be used together. As I said earlier, one could make an
argument for skipping the highway=traffic_calming key but as it stands now,
I think the two go together. YMMV

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 6:11 AM, André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 2015-11-20 17:10, Rafael Avila Coya wrote :
>
> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>
> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
> highway=traffic_calming
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> Always the same discussion.  With LST syntax it's extremely simple.
>
> highway=crossing   means that the attribute "crossing" applies to the
> object "highway".
> It is equivalent to:
>
> highway=yes(void attribute)
> highway:crossing=yesmeans that the attribute "crossing" is true for
> "highway"
>
> Then we can *also* have
> highway:traffic_calming=yesmeans that the attribute "traffic_calming"
> is *also* true for "highway"
> And, finally, as, by default, an attribute applies to the main attribute
> or, if it does not exist ("yes"), to the object,
> this is syntactically equivalent:
>
> highway=yes
> crossing=yes
> traffic_calming=yes
>
> (and "yes" can be replaced with a (single) attribute of crossing and
> traffic_calming if needed
>
> Please note that this is a question of syntax. I am not discussing here if
> we should use highway=* or not. I'm assuming you do.
>
> Cheers=yes
>
> André.
>
> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, 
> seehttp://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
>
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>


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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[André Pirard]

On 2015-11-20 17:10, Rafael Avila Coya wrote :
> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>
> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
> highway=traffic_calming
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
Always the same discussion.  With LST syntax it's extremely simple.

highway=crossing   means that the attribute "crossing" applies to the
object "highway".
It is equivalent to:

highway=yes(void attribute)
highway:crossing=yesmeans that the attribute "crossing" is true for
"highway"

Then we can *also* have
highway:traffic_calming=yesmeans that the attribute
"traffic_calming" is *also* true for "highway"
And, finally, as, by default, an attribute applies to the main attribute
or, if it does not exist ("yes"), to the object,
this is syntactically equivalent:

highway=yes
crossing=yes
traffic_calming=yes

(and "yes" can be replaced with a (single) attribute of crossing and
traffic_calming if needed

Please note that this is a question of syntax. I am not discussing here
if we should use highway=* or not. I'm assuming you do.

Cheers=yes

André.


> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as 
>> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
>> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>>
>> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
>> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
>> it
>> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side 
>>  
>> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
>> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
>> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>>
>> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
>> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>>
>> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay, 
>> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>>
>> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
>> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>>

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[John Willis]

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 3:31 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.
> 
> Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
> highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.

+1

If I read this discussion correctly, 
We're stuck on two issues:

1) the lack of highway=traffic calming on nodes where traffic_calming=* exists. 

- let's add highway=traffic calming. 

2) on nodes which are some form of ped crossing, what should take priority? 

- A footway marked as a crosswalk(zebra) is inherently a "traffic calming" 
feature - but it is first and foremost a crossing. Apparently a highway=node is 
preferred where the footway shares a node with the road's way. 

Highway=traffic_calming is for physical features that cannot be ignored. Paint 
can easily be ignored (ask any Californian about stop sign limit lines!) - so 
if it is just a crosswalk, then don't add the traffic_calming tag. If the 
crosswalk also has another feature (table, pinch point), then add those to a 
segment of the way that crosses the crosswalk (table) or a node immediately in 
front of the crosswalk node (for pinch point bollards) as the pinch affects the 
road but not the crosswalk. 

Barrier=* has several features that can be considered a barrier to some modes 
of transportation and has a traffic calming affect to others - bollards stop 
cars and slow cyclists, cycle barriers stop motor cycles and slow cyclists, etc 
- but traffic calming seems to be very centered on motorized vehicle traffic on 
roads, not sidewalks. 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave F.]

Why is your display name different for what appears to be the exact same 
email address? So bloody annoying


Don't you think you should have started this conversation *before* 
making the edits?



Dave F.

On 20/11/2015 15:19, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
  
So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing

instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.

Gerd




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[GerdP]

Georg Feddern-2 wrote
> If the highway=traffic_calming is obsolete in those cases -
> why isn't
> 
>> A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
>> highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)
> 
> highway=crossing obsolete in this cases?

I just wonder if you wanted to point out  that highway=crossing is also
obsolete?
I think it is, but the wiki says one has to use it and Taginfo shows
that mappers do it this way, so I did not even think about changing it.

Gerd





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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

"Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging."

The wiki doesn't mention this and most mappers seem not
to know that, not even in the UK. The vast majority of 
traffic calmings is NOT tagged highway=traffic_calming.

What am I getting wrong here? Did someone remove the 
preferred way of tagging from the wiki and nobody noticed
it for years?

Gerd


Von: Philip Barnes 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 19:31
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 11:22 -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is
> not uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in
> residential areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to
> address the combined issue of traffic calming and pedestrian
> crossing.
>
>
Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.

Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Craig Wallace]

On 2015-11-20 16:33, Dave Swarthout wrote:

No. That change would not be okay.

AFAIK the correct tagging scenario is

highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump (or chicane, or other types as stated in the wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming)

This is a hierarchical system of tagging that works well in other
situations. I suppose you could make an argument for using only the last
one but that needs a full discussion first.


Is the tag highway=traffic_calming documented anywhere?
There is no mention of it on the Key:traffic_calming wiki page that you 
linked to.



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 11:22 -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is
> not uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in
> residential areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to
> address the combined issue of traffic calming and pedestrian
> crossing.
> 
> 
Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.

Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Tod Fitch]

A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is not 
uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in residential 
areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to address the combined issue 
of traffic calming and pedestrian crossing.





On November 20, 2015 9:41:00 AM MST, Dave Swarthout  
wrote:
>The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they
>are
>used to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the
>road,
>an asphalt or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if
>you
>hit it fast enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a
>few
>traffic_calming "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in
>Eugene, Oregon, but they are unusual, not the normal case.
>
>On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
>gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to make sure:
>> I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
>> but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
>> to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
>> like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
>> I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
>> so those should be tagged on a different node.
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>> ________
>> Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
>> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming
>>
>> Hi:
>>
>> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at
>the
>> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where
>I
>> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>>
>> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
>> highway=traffic_calming
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rafael.
>>
>> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
>> > highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
>> > traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>> >
>> > The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=*
>is not
>> > also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and
>thought
>> that
>> > it
>> > is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the
>highway
>> side
>> >
>> > So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where
>highway=crossing
>> > instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected
>to
>> roads
>> > and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>> >
>> > After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by
>user
>> chilly
>> > as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>> >
>> > As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
>> > and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking
>first.
>> >
>> > Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether
>or
>> not
>> > I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>> >
>> > Gerd
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>>
>http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
>> > Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
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>
>
>-- 
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>Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

I am not sure what you mean.


We have > 1.600.000 nodes which are tagged highway=crossing.

We have ~213.000 nodes tagged as traffic_calming.


I don't know if a zebra crossing should be called traffic calming,

but it is typically tagged highway=crossing, and in rare cases

also with traffic_calming=*.

When I find a node that is tagged highway=traffic_calming,

crossing=uncontrolled,traffic_calming=table and Bing shows

a zebra crossing I think that highway=crossing is a good

replacement for highway=traffic_calming.


The node is part of a highway, so an additional tag highway=traffic_calming

on the node is obsolete, and the wiki doesn't say anything

about adding sucha tag when mapping a traffic_calming.


Gerd





Von: Georg Feddern 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 18:35
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

Am 20.11.2015 um 18:24 schrieb Gerd Petermann:
I found 940 nodes which were tagged with highway=traffic_calming.
Most of them were also tagged with e.g. traffic_calming=bump
or traffic_calming=table or one of the other well documented values.
A few were not tagged traffic_calming=*.

I changed those few to traffic_calming=yes and removed the obsolete
highway=traffic_calming tag from the other.
I also verified that the changed nodes are on a highway=* way.


If the highway=traffic_calming is obsolete in those cases -
why isn't

A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)

highway=crossing obsolete in this cases?

Regards,
Georg
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.11.2015 um 18:24 schrieb Gerd Petermann:

I found 940 nodes which were tagged with highway=traffic_calming.
Most of them were also tagged with e.g. traffic_calming=bump
or traffic_calming=table or one of the other well documented values.
A few were not tagged traffic_calming=*.

I changed those few to traffic_calming=yes and removed the obsolete
highway=traffic_calming tag from the other.
I also verified that the changed nodes are on a highway=* way.



If the highway=traffic_calming is obsolete in those cases -
why isn't


A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)


highway=crossing obsolete in this cases?

Regards,
Georg
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.11.2015 um 17:29 schrieb Marc Gemis:

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/LeaK3riwsMuv7f0i3Jt3XA/photo

I would tag the crossing as a node and the "table" as part of the way,
not as a node.


If it is really enforced to identify a traffic calming only by presence 
of highway=traffic_calming - this is the only way because



but a combination of highway=crossing; traffic_calming=table on a node
could work as well.


won't be identified as a traffic calming then.

Otherwise:
If a node with highway=crossing and with traffic_calming=* should be 
identified as a traffic_calming

we won't need highway=traffic_calming anymore ...

Regards,
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Chris Hill]

On 20/11/15 16:47, Gerd Petermann wrote:


So you think that every node tagged traffic_calming=* should

additionally be tagged with highway=traffic_calming?

That would mean  we have >99% traffic_calming nodes with

incorrect tagging.



I think you misunderstand OSM. Your assumption of incorrect tagging is 
wrong. There is a diversity of tagging. That is how OSM works. Some will 
say 'how will data consumers deal with this muddle?'. That question is 
usually asked by people who have not tried to use OSM data. People who 
use OSM data know that it *always* needs processing to be useful for the 
particular use it is being put to. Dealing with that diversity is part 
of this processing and not especially difficult nor does it add much to 
the process. Anyone who has written such a process to do this then has a 
template to do this again easily.


Diversity in tagging is not a problem. Mechanical edits that destroy 
detail or upset precious mappers who have their carefully chosen tagging 
replaced by a remote person are a problem.


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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

I don't propose to change this tagging style.



Maybe I was not clear about the intended improvement:

I found 940 nodes which were tagged with highway=traffic_calming.
Most of them were also tagged with e.g. traffic_calming=bump
or traffic_calming=table or one of the other well documented values.
A few were not tagged traffic_calming=*.

I changed those few to traffic_calming=yes and removed the obsolete
highway=traffic_calming tag from the other.
I also verified that the changed nodes are on a highway=* way.

A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)

I think the only problem here is that I did this in a large changeset
and thus produced what is called a mechanical edit.

Gerd


Von: Volker Schmidt 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 18:07
An: David Swarthout; Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

I routinely use the combination of
highway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
traffic_calming=table or traffic_calming=hump

example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1463764436
[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1463764436>

OpenStreetMap | Node: 1463764436
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.
Weitere Informationen...<http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1463764436>



http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/tfK5PNthYcyeahBz_dXqeg/photo

For these combined features the synthax
highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump cannot be used

Also JOSM supports this combined mapping.

I thought this was the standard way of mapping the combination of pedestrian 
crossing and a slow-down hump or table.
Please do not touch these without discussion.




On 20 November 2015 at 17:41, Dave Swarthout 
mailto:daveswarth...@gmail.com>> wrote:
The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they are used 
to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the road, an asphalt 
or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if you hit it fast 
enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few traffic_calming 
"humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in Eugene, Oregon, but 
they are unusual, not the normal case.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann 
mailto:gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Just to make sure:
I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
so those should be tagged on a different node.

Gerd


Von: Rafael Avila Coya mailto:ravilac...@gmail.com>>
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

Hi:

What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514

I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
highway=traffic_calming

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _

Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Volker Schmidt]

I routinely use the combination of
highway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
traffic_calming=table or traffic_calming=hump

example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1463764436
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/tfK5PNthYcyeahBz_dXqeg/photo

For these combined features the synthax
highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump cannot be used

Also JOSM supports this combined mapping.

I thought this was the standard way of mapping the combination of
pedestrian crossing and a slow-down hump or table.
Please do not touch these without discussion.




On 20 November 2015 at 17:41, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they are
> used to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the road,
> an asphalt or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if you
> hit it fast enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few
> traffic_calming "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in
> Eugene, Oregon, but they are unusual, not the normal case.
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
> gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to make sure:
>> I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
>> but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
>> to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
>> like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
>> I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
>> so those should be tagged on a different node.
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>> ____
>> Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
>> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming
>>
>> Hi:
>>
>> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
>> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
>> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>>
>> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
>> highway=traffic_calming
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rafael.
>>
>> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
>> > highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
>> > traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>> >
>> > The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is
>> not
>> > also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought
>> that
>> > it
>> > is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway
>> side
>> >
>> > So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
>> > instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to
>> roads
>> > and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>> >
>> > After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user
>> chilly
>> > as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>> >
>> > As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
>> > and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>> >
>> > Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or
>> not
>> > I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>> >
>> > Gerd
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
>> > Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Tagging mailing list
>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

So you think that every node tagged traffic_calming=* should

additionally be tagged with highway=traffic_calming?

That would mean  we have >99% traffic_calming nodes with

incorrect tagging.


Gerd



Von: Dave Swarthout 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:33
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

No. That change would not be okay.

AFAIK the correct tagging scenario is

highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump (or chicane, or other types as stated in the wiki 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming)
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/1/15/Traffic_calming_example.jpg/200px-Traffic_calming_example.jpg]<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming>

Key:traffic_calming - OpenStreetMap Wiki
See Traffic calming on Wikipedia. Traffic calming consists of engineering and 
other measures put in place on roads for slowing down or reducing motor-vehicle 
traffic ...
Weitere Informationen...<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming>



This is a hierarchical system of tagging that works well in other situations. I 
suppose you could make an argument for using only the last one but that needs a 
full discussion first.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:19 PM, GerdP 
mailto:gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side

So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.

Gerd




--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they are
used to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the road,
an asphalt or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if you
hit it fast enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few
traffic_calming "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in
Eugene, Oregon, but they are unusual, not the normal case.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Just to make sure:
> I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
> but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
> to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
> like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
> I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
> so those should be tagged on a different node.
>
> Gerd
>
> 
> Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming
>
> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>
> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
> highway=traffic_calming
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> > highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> > traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
> >
> > The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> > also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought
> that
> > it
> > is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway
> side
> >
> > So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> > instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to
> roads
> > and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
> >
> > After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user
> chilly
> > as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
> >
> > As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> > and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
> >
> > Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or
> not
> > I should revert all changes related to this tag.
> >
> > Gerd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> > Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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>



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Chris Hill]

On 20/11/15 15:19, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
  
So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing

instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.


I asked Gerd to revert the edit simply because it was an undiscussed 
mechanical edit, for which Gerd has acknowledged and apologised (thanks 
Gerd). I would like to add that discussion on this list may reach a 
conclusion about the tags used (if we're lucky), but that still will not 
be a suitable place to discuss a mechanical edit. Gerd's link is to an 
edit across much of GB, so it needs to be discussed *and* agreed with GB 
mappers. I would suggest that GB mechanical edits need to be discussed 
on talk-GB and / or the #osm-gb irc channel. Similar mechanical edits in 
other countries or areas need to be similarly discussed and agreed in 
appropriate lists and channels too.


--
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

No. That change would not be okay.

AFAIK the correct tagging scenario is

highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump (or chicane, or other types as stated in the wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming)

This is a hierarchical system of tagging that works well in other
situations. I suppose you could make an argument for using only the last
one but that needs a full discussion first.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:19 PM, GerdP 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user
> chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Just to make sure:
I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag 
like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but 
I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
so those should be tagged on a different node.

Gerd


Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

Hi:

What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514

I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
highway=traffic_calming

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/LeaK3riwsMuv7f0i3Jt3XA/photo

I would tag the crossing as a node and the "table" as part of the way,
not as a node.

but a combination of highway=crossing; traffic_calming=table on a node
could work as well.

(at least I think the road is higher around the crossing)

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Florian Lohoff]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 08:19:56AM -0700, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/LeaK3riwsMuv7f0i3Jt3XA/photo

I dont know how it is tagged right now but its a traffic calming
AND a crossing.

Just a quick example.

Flo
-- 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi:

What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514

I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
highway=traffic_calming

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as 
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
> 
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side 
>  
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
> 
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
> 
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay, 
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
> 
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
> 
> Gerd
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[GerdP]

Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as 
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side 
 
So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay, 
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.

Gerd




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