Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 11:04 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Pubs that are over foodie, tables laid etc, should in my opinion be tagged as restaurants. Those have lost their primary focus as a place to go for a drink, to meet people and to network. Or possibly as gastropubs, since they're still (at least slightly) a distinct kind of establishment, and that's a term that's commonly used to refer to them. Also, they still look like pubs on the outside. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Hi, On 07/19/2013 03:33 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: Of the solutions, I feel that calling it what it's called locally is preferable. Anyone who cares to compare across countries is going to have to parse the location first anyway. We've managed to handle creating definitions that we could use worldwide for pretty much everything else, including roads, sports, other schools, various amenities, etc. Have we really? In Italy (and Martin will correct me if I'm wrong), a bar will typically open in the morning and you can have breakfast there. Has that lead to OSM using amenity=cafe for these businesses because in other countries a bar tends to be mainly for evening drinks, or are we using amenity=bar in Italy and counting on the map user to know that this is something different in different places? (A quick count tells me that we have 7941 bars and 7209 cafes in Italy, while we have 3330 bars and 19319 cafes in Germany, this makes it seem likely that we do indeed use amenity=bar in Italy for things that would not be called a bar in Germany.) Personally I don't think that it would be terribly bad if amenity=kindergarten would mean something else in the US than in Germany, for example. (I *would* find it strange though if anything from elementary school upwards would be classed as childcare - in my mind, the focus in school is on teaching something, and the focus in childcare is on supervision. But maybe that's a cultural bias too?) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
2013/7/19 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org On 07/19/2013 03:33 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: We've managed to handle creating definitions that we could use worldwide for pretty much everything else, including roads, sports, other schools, various amenities, etc. Have we really? In Italy (and Martin will correct me if I'm wrong), a bar will typically open in the morning and you can have breakfast there. Has that lead to OSM using amenity=cafe for these businesses because in other countries a bar tends to be mainly for evening drinks, or are we using amenity=bar in Italy and counting on the map user to know that this is something different in different places? Actually you are touching a sore point, this is one of the very few specialties in Italian tagging, and there is indeed no real consensus how to tag these. Thing is that an Italian bar is yes, supposed to be open in the morning, but it will normally also be open for lunch (usually simple meals, mostly self service, but after breakfast you would not go there for sweet food but for sandwiches and maybe pasta and similar) and some of them will also be open until late at night (and people will drink mostly alcoholic stuff then). And there are also businesses that qualify perfectly for amenity=cafe (they call themselves sala da thé and are exactly what in Germany or Austria is a cafe). Some Italian users insist on using amenity=cafe for all kind of Italian bars but that also doesn't catch it in many cases (because many don't have seats but only a bar/counter, have self service). The solution for us is that some are amenity=bar and others are amenity=cafe (the bigger ones, when there are tables and service). I think to some extend it is normal that there are local differences, take a petrol station for instance, in Germany you would not only go there by car but mayn people also walk there or go by bike to get tobacco, beer or fresh milk at times where other shops have to be closed, as they have often become real convenience stores, while in Italy you could never get tobacco or beer at a petrol station. There are a few other differences in tagging as well, e.g. we use to have 2 main types of pizza places in Italy (the take away ones, selling sliced pizza, and the restaurant ones, where you can only buy whole pizzas and will have seating and table service), we use amenity=fast_food for the first and amenity=restaurant for the latter, or ice_cream, in Germany they get mostly (?) tagged as amenity=cafe, cuisine=ice_cream, but in Italy most ice_cream shops are take away places more similar to what in Germany is a Konditorei (~sweets bakery) and ice cream makers legally belong to the ~sweet makers craft (sorry for this transcription, I hope you get it). In general there is a strong wish in the Italian community to use globally unified tags, but when there are particular regional differences we try to take them into account. Another object that comes to my mind is amenity=pub. You will usually get something to eat in a pub in the UK, but you won't in many German amenity=pub (indeed it might have been a good idea to invent something dedicated for the German Kneipe, but osm history put it that way). Personally I don't think that it would be terribly bad if amenity=kindergarten would mean something else in the US than in Germany, for example. (I *would* find it strange though if anything from elementary school upwards would be classed as childcare +1 cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: On 07/19/2013 03:33 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: Of the solutions, I feel that calling it what it's called locally is preferable. Anyone who cares to compare across countries is going to have to parse the location first anyway. We've managed to handle creating definitions that we could use worldwide for pretty much everything else, including roads, sports, other schools, various amenities, etc. Have we really? I did say pretty much. :) (A quick count tells me that we have 7941 bars and 7209 cafes in Italy, while we have 3330 bars and 19319 cafes in Germany, this makes it seem likely that we do indeed use amenity=bar in Italy for things that would not be called a bar in Germany.) Personally I don't think that it would be terribly bad if amenity=kindergarten would mean something else in the US than in Germany, for example. (I *would* find it strange though if anything from elementary school upwards would be classed as childcare - in my mind, the focus in school is on teaching something, and the focus in childcare is on supervision. But maybe that's a cultural bias too?) Comments about the US education system aside, I think that you're touching on an important issue- which is that the tagging system is just there to provide a label. The human-readability aspect of it is nice, but it's not entirely necessary. Just as we don't really expect every single OSM user to understand the English that they're typing in as tags, we can't expect that these words mean the same thing- we just need to define the terms beforehand. And this seems like it's harder than it needs to be, since, as you say, at some point (most) children go to school- that's at around age 6. As for kindergarten, while the name may have an obvious German origin, my question is what the British definition of the word is, since it's British English that we use in OSM as our base language, and does that British definition differ from the US definition. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On 19/07/2013 12:50, Serge Wroclawski wrote: As for kindergarten, while the name may have an obvious German origin, my question is what the British definition of the word is, since it's British English that we use in OSM as our base language, and does that British definition differ from the US definition. The term has never really caught on in Britain. We associate it mainly with America. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Serge Wroclawski wrote: As for kindergarten, while the name may have an obvious German origin, my question is what the British definition of the word is, since it's British English that we use in OSM as our base language, and does that British definition differ from the US definition. In British English, nursery or playgroup is the usual term for preschool education, and kindergarten is rarely used, except in the context of special approaches to education, such as Steiner-Waldorf education (the educational philosophy of which was founded by Rudolf Steiner). -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kindergarten Here in Charlbury we have two places that describe themselves as nursery, and one as preschool. I think the preschool starts at a later age than the nurseries do. http://www.charlbury.info/business/260 http://www.charlbury.info/business/263 http://www.charlbury.info/community/3 cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Childcare-Tag-tp5768967p5770365.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 11:04 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Another object that comes to my mind is amenity=pub. You will usually get something to eat in a pub in the UK, but you won't in many German amenity=pub (indeed it might have been a good idea to invent something dedicated for the German Kneipe, but osm history put it that way). Fortunately it is still 'sometimes', rather than 'usually' you can get something to eat in a pub in the UK, unless you count crisps (potato chips), nuts, (pork) scratchings and a pickled egg as something to eat. Pubs that are over foodie, tables laid etc, should in my opinion be tagged as restaurants. Those have lost their primary focus as a place to go for a drink, to meet people and to network. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Of the solutions, I feel that calling it what it's called locally is preferable. Anyone who cares to compare across countries is going to have to parse the location first *anyway*. In the USA the grades are well defined: - Day care or Nanny Care (from birth)(generally private) - Preschool (age acceptance varies based on provider)(generally private) - Bridge-K (entry based on readiness)(generally private) - Kindergarten (entry based on age)(first universal public option) - Elementary (1st through 5th grade)(public option) - Middle (6th through 8th grade)(public option) - High School (9th through 12th grade also called freshman/sophmore /junior/senior)(public option) - Community College or College or Vocational School (rare except for a few feilds) - Masters Program - Graduate Program ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Of the solutions, I feel that calling it what it's called locally is preferable. Anyone who cares to compare across countries is going to have to parse the location first anyway. We've managed to handle creating definitions that we could use worldwide for pretty much everything else, including roads, sports, other schools, various amenities, etc. One of the beauties of OSM is that the tags are relatively unified between nations, where they're not, it's usually just because a certain feature is highly localized. I'd be very sad if we threw away so many years of international cooperation and consensus and I don't understand why these tags can't be defined in the same way other tags are. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
John Sturdy jcg.sturdy@... writes: It would probably be good to re-open discussion (and add your voice to it, particularly as you have an interest in using such a tag); after that, I think this one could be ready to vote on. __John On 7/9/13, alyssa wright alyssapwright at gmail.com wrote: Thanks. I'm beginning to get a better sense of how things operate. Appreciate the patience. That said -- how does one move a proposed tag to a vote? Like can I call one right now? Best, Alyssa. It is good to see that the proposals are picked up and continued. My advice would be to keep a short log of the proposals history. E.g. keep the old RequestForComments date and add your new after. For an example see; http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/bare_rock Good luck /Johan J ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On 7/9/2013 5:42 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: Because some people like voting. Some people like bureaucracy, and rules of order, and all that, and so we have one for them. And some people like the idea that someone might eventually be able to consume the tags in a useful application. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
2013/7/9 alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com: My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. +1 Even if there aren't major changes to the proposals perhaps the needs of OSM have shifted since 2011. So not sure I follow on why a previous rejection dictates a current one. it doesn't dictate it, but as he wrote: using a new value for the amenity key in order to introduce a new tag for stuff that is already (at least partly) covered by different, well established and highly used values of the amenity key will not work (it is crying for an edit war). Usually proposals get rejected because they are badly drawn (while the opposite is not always true: some proposals pass despite being badly drawn), and yes, there are exceptions (all IMHO of course). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
2013/7/9 Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net: There are no approved tags in OSM. You can use any tag you want, +1, yes but you have to respect other people's work, and sometimes these two rules do conflict. so if the childcare tags suit you, use them. -1, I wouldn't use the amenity-tag as it will conflict with other users mapping (e.g. amenity=kindergarten, used 110K times). I agree that discussion and documentation are very helpful, but a few negative votes (even thousands of negative votes) cannot stop the tag being used. There are no tag police, no approval committee and no one with any right to force tags to conform. If you use an unusual tag it will simply be ignored by renderers and other data consumers, but if it becomes popular they may well start to use it. Tag use has to start somewhere and that is not simply a vote from a handful of unrepresentative people in the wiki. You risk to be called a vandal when you start changing existing objects in order to suit your solitaire idea of how stuff should be tagged (I am not saying that you or Alyssa have solitaire ideas, but there are people like that, and there are limits to every tag you like). Of course you can use any tag you like, but sometimes you have to adopt your way of tagging to how other people tag, namely not re-using well established keys if there are existing objects you intend to tag which use tags with the same key but different values. For instance if you make up a new value for highway you will have to change existing highway values thereby removing these objects (at least temporarily if we presume your genius idea of a new highway class will later be adopted by more people) from most of the maps. There have been mappers in the past who acted like this, e.g. in Germany, and they have been blocked for editing the map with any tag they liked ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 09.07.2013 18:50, schrieb alyssa wright: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:35 PM, fly Am 09.07.2013 17:35, schrieb alyssa wright: Sorry, I don't really follow. So some questions inline: My fault, I did not well explain, especially for someone new. - Sorry. I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I really do not see any major changes to the rejected version 1 in 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. Even if there aren't major changes to the proposals perhaps the needs of OSM have shifted since 2011. So not sure I follow on why a previous rejection dictates a current one. The way, I read understand the rejection is, that the problem was in finding a good main tag (key) and/or deprecating kindergarden. But sure, opinions can shift and deprecating amenity=kindergarden would probably be helping cleaning up as there are definitely wrong mapped kindergardens Which tag isn't flexible enough (not sure what It refers to in your sentence). It seems like it takes into account the kindergarden scope as well as other childcare spaces, such as nursery, orphanage. It allows for more specificity than the existing kindergarden tab as well as cultural differences. Is it typical for amenity tags to be used with other amenities? Is there something in this proposal that stops such combinations? I've reviewed amenity=library and amenity=restaurant and don't see the difference in approach. But again, I'm new to this so it might be more subtle than I realize. The main problem is that multi values are allowed on OSM with a semi-colon as separator but not many consumer are using it. I am not sure if a tag amenity=childcare;kindergarden would work and I would avoid it. Best would be to find a better key or prekey to get it working. Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? I was thinking about something like social_amenity=* (no good example!) or adding some key word in front separated with a colon. I do not find a good example right now, sorry, and I read a bit more and did change my mind in this point. --- In general there seems to be a mix up with amenity=kindergarden which was used cause by missing alternatives that is why I meanwhile think it would be worth to deprecate it. We already have amenity=social_facility which might even conflict with amenity=childcare. The proposed tags are not flexible enough to cover mixed situations. I know a kindergarden with some spaces for under 3-year-olds and after school assistance plus extra services on school holidays. Maybe a social_facility is even integrated in the project. The new proposal should cover this all. --- I do not believe in voting but in finding an agreement and a solution. This often needs more power and time. Please ask the original author about his proposal and either take over or develop it together. Please, first try to clean up and keep on discussing it. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 10.07.2013 12:57, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/7/9 alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com: it doesn't dictate it, but as he wrote: using a new value for the amenity key in order to introduce a new tag for stuff that is already (at least partly) covered by different, well established and highly used values of the amenity key will not work (it is crying for an edit war). Usually proposals get rejected because they are badly drawn (while the opposite is not always true: some proposals pass despite being badly drawn), and yes, there are exceptions (all IMHO of course). +1 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
2013/7/10 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? I was thinking about something like social_amenity=* (no good example!) or adding some key word in front separated with a colon. what about childcare=* (or childcare=yes if you don't want to define main classes of different childcare services) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 09.07.2013 20:29, schrieb Frederik Ramm: On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. We try to get a comparison working. A promotion would be helpful but this could be done by anyone and the persons changing the wiki and/or proposers could fill tickets. In JOSM you can use extra presets. It is even possible to share your code with others through JOSM Trac. We hoped to get some extra presets and later on even patches for core but people seem to rather create a new preset for there needs than translating/updating/expending existing ones. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. Or no one cared about your proposal. One good thing about a nice proposal is that the documentation is done ! Weather it will stay in proposal name space or be approved and moved does not matter that much. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. +1 fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Again, thanks for all the discussion. I'm following most of it. ;) I think... Could I attempt to articulate what I consider the major confusion in the existing kindergarten tag? Perhaps this is already known, but perhaps an explanation could inspire a graceful resolution. In the US, (and according to the Oxford dictionary Australia and Britain), kindergarten is legally defined for 5 and 6 year olds. There are cases where parents have attempted to enroll a child of below 5 into kindergarten and have been legally refused. Instead there are a number of facilities that accommodate children below the age of 5. For a working family, a child below 5 could be under the care of a preschool (an informal group not typically associated with a school though sometimes affiliated with a religious organization), childcare (sometimes affiliated with a person's place of employment), a nursery (typically for very young children), among others. The use of the tag kindergarten as the umbrella description for such places of care doesn't make sense in my own cultural context. It would be like looking for a temple of Jewish denomination under the tag bar, because there is wine during services. Why would I look for nursery under kindergarten when the two -- culturally and legally -- are unrelated? It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? But I am not sure I know enough about tags to propose something appropriate. Thanks, Alyssa. On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/10 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? I was thinking about something like social_amenity=* (no good example!) or adding some key word in front separated with a colon. what about childcare=* (or childcare=yes if you don't want to define main classes of different childcare services) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 2:07 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.comwrote: Again, thanks for all the discussion. I'm following most of it. ;) I think... Could I attempt to articulate what I consider the major confusion in the existing kindergarten tag? Perhaps this is already known, but perhaps an explanation could inspire a graceful resolution. In the US, (and according to the Oxford dictionary Australia and Britain), kindergarten is legally defined for 5 and 6 year olds. There are cases where parents have attempted to enroll a child of below 5 into kindergarten and have been legally refused. Instead there are a number of facilities that accommodate children below the age of 5. ... It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? But I am not sure I know enough about tags to propose something appropriate. I think the clearest is to use amenity=childcare, and document that the age range taken should be tagged (either with an age-range=a..b or with age_start=a and age_end=b), and document that amenity=kindergarten should be processed as an alias for this. (I don't *regard* it as an alias, but I'm happy to *process* it as one. particularly when the age range is made explicit separately.) This avoids using different words for age ranges, that might be interpreted differently in different places / cultures; and also avoids multiple-valued tags for facilities which cover what someone regards as several named age ranges. Apart from that, I'd generally go along with the proposals in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0, particularly pedagogy= as I'm sure adherents of a particular system (e.g. Montessori) will be looking for that information. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 10.07.2013 15:07, schrieb alyssa wright: On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/10 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Again, thanks for all the discussion. I'm following most of it. ;) I think... This is nothing unusual here, Could I attempt to articulate what I consider the major confusion in the existing kindergarten tag? Perhaps this is already known, but perhaps an explanation could inspire a graceful resolution. In the US, (and according to the Oxford dictionary Australia and Britain), kindergarten is legally defined for 5 and 6 year olds. There are cases where parents have attempted to enroll a child of below 5 into kindergarten and have been legally refused. Instead there are a number of facilities that accommodate children below the age of 5. For a working family, a child below 5 could be under the care of a preschool (an informal group not typically associated with a school though sometimes affiliated with a religious organization), childcare (sometimes affiliated with a person's place of employment), a nursery (typically for very young children), among others. The use of the tag kindergarten as the umbrella description for such places of care doesn't make sense in my own cultural context. It would be like looking for a temple of Jewish denomination under the tag bar, because there is wine during services. Why would I look for nursery under kindergarten when the two -- culturally and legally -- are unrelated? It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? But I am not sure I know enough about tags to propose something appropriate. Ok, now we get closer. I did not know that it is that strict in the US and 15 years ago at least in New England it was understood like in Europe. Do not forget we use BE in OSM. Actually kindergarden is German (Kindergarten) and literally translated would be garden of children or children's garden. In Germany the local Authority must offer you a place in this facility for 2-year old children until school (age of 6). We also have an optional year of Pre-School instead of last year of Kindergarten. Everything before the age of 2 might fit under nursery. We have also place which offer childcare for school children and youth after school in the afternoon with a wide range from all kind of activities to help with homework and other stuff. Hope that makes it clearer fly Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? I was thinking about something like social_amenity=* (no good example!) or adding some key word in front separated with a colon. what about childcare=* (or childcare=yes if you don't want to define main classes of different childcare services) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 10.07.2013 15:07, schrieb alyssa wright: Again, thanks for all the discussion. I'm following most of it. ;) I think... Could I attempt to articulate what I consider the major confusion in the existing kindergarten tag? Perhaps this is already known, but perhaps an explanation could inspire a graceful resolution. In the US, (and according to the Oxford dictionary Australia and Britain), kindergarten is legally defined for 5 and 6 year olds. There are cases where parents have attempted to enroll a child of below 5 into kindergarten and have been legally refused. Instead there are a number of facilities that accommodate children below the age of 5. For a working family, a child below 5 could be under the care of a preschool (an informal group not typically associated with a school though sometimes affiliated with a religious organization), childcare (sometimes affiliated with a person's place of employment), a nursery (typically for very young children), among others. The use of the tag kindergarten as the umbrella description for such places of care doesn't make sense in my own cultural context. It would be like looking for a temple of Jewish denomination under the tag bar, because there is wine during services. Why would I look for nursery under kindergarten when the two -- culturally and legally -- are unrelated? It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? In Germany a Kindergarten (that's where the English language has the word taken from, I think ;) ) is something for the age of around 3 and 6 (at the age of 6 children start with school), since a few years sometimes even starting at an age of 1 (!). So a kindergarten in Germany IMHO most often means a place for children who are not yet going to school (because of age). So here it in fact is that umbrella term you seem to dislike. regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
2013/7/10 alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com: It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? yes, it is mostly agreed that the current tagging scheme for childcare, nursery, kindergartens, day cares and other places where babies, small children, critters, infants etc. are looked after/cared for is insufficient for detailed tagging. This was even used in a talk at an university (I guess gender studies) as an example to demonstrate that OSM was mostly a bunch of ... males. But I am not sure I know enough about tags to propose something appropriate. actually it is not so important to know about tags, you should know about the topic (childcare). Problem is that it seems that there are huge cultural and legal differences, so IMHO who wants to address this should first try to make a classification: what is the service offered, how can the instances be grouped. At this point, people from different cultural backgrounds should already be involved in order to make this as universally applicable as possible to similar institutions around the globe. E.g. set up a childcare 3.0 page and start brainstorming / writing down definitions for the different classes. There were intense discussions about this field also on the German ML not so long ago, so I am sure you will find other mappers interested and willing to contribute. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Ant the wiki about nursery is redirecting to amenity=kindergarten ([1])... We have 3 challenges in this attempt to clarify the kindergarten tag : - cultural : the same words mean different things in different countries. Also the organizations, their legal status, age limits can be very different. The wikipedia article about preschool education is an indicator about this disparity. - combination : mixing different types of child care at the same location. Thus, we use either a new primary tag and subtags (e.g. your proposal) or create many primary tags applying on different OSM elements (e.g. amenity=nursery on separate nodes) - deprecate or redefine an old and well established tag in OSM (kindergarten). These three challenges made the vote of the first child care proposal rejected. That's why I'm laughing when I read that the vote proposal was rejected by a gender gap in the OSM community ([2]). I see mainly 2 options here: - go ahead with a new primary key amenity=childcare with subkeys. But this will imply to deprecate the amenity=kindergarten in long term. You have to know that this is very hard in OSM but not impossible, especially if you have good and valid arguments for the change. This will require a good wiki documentation, a large consensus and time. See the power=station long story as an example ([6]). - keep the amenity=kindergarten and create new amenity tags for your needs. It has also advantages : only one key, folllows the duck tagging principle ([4]). But you will not be able to combine the features on a single OSM element (enforcing people to create special nodes or polygons for tagging). About the differences between coutries, you might see how it was solved for international equivalences for highways ([3]) or speed limits ([5]) and create a similar page on the wiki (and filled by local contributors). My 2 cents, Pieren [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nursery [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare#Post-mortem [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway:International_equivalence [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Duck_tagging [5] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed [6] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dstation ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
we need to be careful with nursery, can easily be mixed up with a place you go to buy plants. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 10/07/2013 14:42 fly wrote: Am 10.07.2013 15:07, schrieb alyssa wright: On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/7/10 fly dieterdre...@gmail.com: Again, thanks for all the discussion. I'm following most of it. ;) I think... This is nothing unusual here, Could I attempt to articulate what I consider the major confusion in the existing kindergarten tag? Perhaps this is already known, but perhaps an explanation could inspire a graceful resolution. In the US, (and according to the Oxford dictionary Australia and Britain), kindergarten is legally defined for 5 and 6 year olds. There are cases where parents have attempted to enroll a child of below 5 into kindergarten and have been legally refused. Instead there are a number of facilities that accommodate children below the age of 5. For a working family, a child below 5 could be under the care of a preschool (an informal group not typically associated with a school though sometimes affiliated with a religious organization), childcare (sometimes affiliated with a person's place of employment), a nursery (typically for very young children), among others. The use of the tag kindergarten as the umbrella description for such places of care doesn't make sense in my own cultural context. It would be like looking for a temple of Jewish denomination under the tag bar, because there is wine during services. Why would I look for nursery under kindergarten when the two -- culturally and legally -- are unrelated? It is my understanding that kindergarten means something very different in other places of the world. How does OSM account for such cultural differences? Perhaps the childcare proposal should not try to replace kindergarten, but instead try to disassociate childcare from the kindergarten umbrella? But I am not sure I know enough about tags to propose something appropriate. Ok, now we get closer. I did not know that it is that strict in the US and 15 years ago at least in New England it was understood like in Europe. Do not forget we use BE in OSM. Actually kindergarden is German (Kindergarten) and literally translated would be garden of children or children's garden. In Germany the local Authority must offer you a place in this facility for 2-year old children until school (age of 6). We also have an optional year of Pre-School instead of last year of Kindergarten. Everything before the age of 2 might fit under nursery. We have also place which offer childcare for school children and youth after school in the afternoon with a wide range from all kind of activities to help with homework and other stuff. Hope that makes it clearer fly Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? I was thinking about something like social_amenity=* (no good example!) or adding some key word in front separated with a colon. what about childcare=* (or childcare=yes if you don't want to define main classes of different childcare services) ___ Tagging mailing list dieterdre...@gmail.com http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: we need to be careful with nursery, can easily be mixed up with a place you go to buy plants. Use plant_nursery, e.g. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dplant_nursery Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
If the mapper thinks to look, or is even aware the wiki exists. Plant nursery is not normal, or obvious, usage. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 10/07/2013 15:16 Pieren wrote: On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: we need to be careful with nursery, can easily be mixed up with a place you go to buy plants. Use plant_nursery, e.g. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dplant_nursery Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list p...@trigpoint.me.uk http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dplant_nursery ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Am 09.07.2013 17:35, schrieb alyssa wright: Hey Alyssa I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I really do not see any major changes to the rejected version 1 in 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. Best would be to find a better key or prekey to get it working. If you want to read the discussions please have a look at the archive: version 1: spring 2011 version 2: may and june 2013 Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Sorry, I don't really follow. So some questions inline: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:35 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 09.07.2013 17:35, schrieb alyssa wright: Hey Alyssa I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 I really do not see any major changes to the rejected version 1 in 2011: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare My main concern is that deprecating amenity=kindergarden will not work/be accepted and that it is not flexible enough, e.g. you can not use it with other amenities. Even if there aren't major changes to the proposals perhaps the needs of OSM have shifted since 2011. So not sure I follow on why a previous rejection dictates a current one. Which tag isn't flexible enough (not sure what It refers to in your sentence). It seems like it takes into account the kindergarden scope as well as other childcare spaces, such as nursery, orphanage. It allows for more specificity than the existing kindergarden tab as well as cultural differences. Is it typical for amenity tags to be used with other amenities? Is there something in this proposal that stops such combinations? I've reviewed amenity=library and amenity=restaurant and don't see the difference in approach. But again, I'm new to this so it might be more subtle than I realize. Best would be to find a better key or prekey to get it working. Again, what is It referring to here? And can you give some suggestions on how to make the proposal better? If you want to read the discussions please have a look at the archive: version 1: spring 2011 version 2: may and june 2013 Thanks, Alyssa. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
There are no approved tags in OSM. You can use any tag you want, so if the childcare tags suit you, use them. I agree that discussion and documentation are very helpful, but a few negative votes (even thousands of negative votes) cannot stop the tag being used. There are no tag police, no approval committee and no one with any right to force tags to conform. If you use an unusual tag it will simply be ignored by renderers and other data consumers, but if it becomes popular they may well start to use it. Tag use has to start somewhere and that is not simply a vote from a handful of unrepresentative people in the wiki. Cheers, Chris User: chillly alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Not trying to provoke a fight, just honestly confused as to the point of this process. Thanks, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: There are no approved tags in OSM. You can use any tag you want, so if the childcare tags suit you, use them. I agree that discussion and documentation are very helpful, but a few negative votes (even thousands of negative votes) cannot stop the tag being used. There are no tag police, no approval committee and no one with any right to force tags to conform. If you use an unusual tag it will simply be ignored by renderers and other data consumers, but if it becomes popular they may well start to use it. Tag use has to start somewhere and that is not simply a vote from a handful of unrepresentative people in the wiki. Cheers, Chris User: chillly alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'm new to this proposed tagging process etc, but I wanted to know what happened with this childcare tag proposal? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 Thanks, Alyssa. -- Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Thanks. I'm beginning to get a better sense of how things operate. Appreciate the patience. That said -- how does one move a proposed tag to a vote? Like can I call one right now? Best, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
It would probably be good to re-open discussion (and add your voice to it, particularly as you have an interest in using such a tag); after that, I think this one could be ready to vote on. __John On 7/9/13, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks. I'm beginning to get a better sense of how things operate. Appreciate the patience. That said -- how does one move a proposed tag to a vote? Like can I call one right now? Best, Alyssa. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09.07.2013 19:13, alyssa wright wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. Most new editors (in the human being sense) tend to use the tags offered by their editors (in the software sense). Which tags are offered by the editors is entirely up to the editor coding teams, and different editors will differ in their presets. There is no automatism that promotes approved tags to editor presets, and there are many non-approved tags in editor presets. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Personally, I'd say that a tag going through a successful vote process at least means that it's not just something that a lone madperson has come up with without talking to others; it's a somewhat-discussed idea, and therefore more likely to grab the attention of mappers and editor writers, and therefore more likely to become used. I wouldn't say the process is useless, It is suitable for shining a light on a perceived need and possible solutions. The process does not, however, have the weight that some people attribute to it; just because 20 people voted on a new convoluted rule how to code opening times, doesn't mean every editor writer will now eagerly implement a new preset for that - and just because a proposal was shot down, doesn't mean that the tag won't be rendered. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 __**_ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagginghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:13 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Because some people like voting. Some people like bureaucracy, and rules of order, and all that, and so we have one for them. What kind of free-for-all would it be if we didn't have room for those whose idea of a good time is having a lot of structure? - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Childcare Tag
Thanks Serge for the clarification. Super helpful. So as John suggested, I'll add my feedback to the existing thread and ask for a vote as I too enjoy voting. Best, Alyssa. On Jul 9, 2013, at 5:42 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 1:13 PM, alyssa wright alyssapwri...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, people keep saying that. But as a new editor, my inclination is to use approved tags and not ones that are in the proposal stage. This is consistent in what I've seen anecdotally with new members. This tag has yet to go up for a vote. How can it go up for a vote? But then why even have a voting process if you're saying extensibly saying it doesn't matter? Because some people like voting. Some people like bureaucracy, and rules of order, and all that, and so we have one for them. What kind of free-for-all would it be if we didn't have room for those whose idea of a good time is having a lot of structure? - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
