Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 02/20/2011 08:57 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 2/20/11 8:51 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/19/2011 08:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. well, on the other hand, GPS users have been known to sue when the GPS led them to do stupid things. irrespective of whether the mythical we are responsible, the lawsuit still has to be defended. I do believe the where's your brain? defense still works successfully, ie, who's the licensed driver doing the thinking here? You or the computer? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/21/11 9:10 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/20/2011 08:57 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 2/20/11 8:51 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/19/2011 08:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. well, on the other hand, GPS users have been known to sue when the GPS led them to do stupid things. irrespective of whether the mythical we are responsible, the lawsuit still has to be defended. I do believe the where's your brain? defense still works successfully, ie, who's the licensed driver doing the thinking here? You or the computer? you have completely missed the point. no matter what defense works, you _still_ have to spend money to defend the suit. there is no predicting how long that will take and how much it will cost. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
2011/2/21 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net On 2/21/11 9:10 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/20/2011 08:57 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 2/20/11 8:51 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/19/2011 08:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. well, on the other hand, GPS users have been known to sue when the GPS led them to do stupid things. irrespective of whether the mythical we are responsible, the lawsuit still has to be defended. I do believe the where's your brain? defense still works successfully, ie, who's the licensed driver doing the thinking here? You or the computer? you have completely missed the point. no matter what defense works, you _still_ have to spend money to defend the suit. there is no predicting how long that will take and how much it will cost. Should we consider the risk that people sue us because their GPS couldn't find Grandma's house and they had to wander cluelessly in the country? [/sarcasm] richard Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 21/02/2011 02:51, Paul Johnson wrote: This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. OSM officially only does the data, not the rendering. If we tag this as oneway=reversible (or any other explicit value which does not imply we know the flow direction at any point in time) then we have done our bit to address any potential liability on this point IMHO. The current routing engines (and also preprocessors like mkgmap) are unfortunately not always capable of processing complex turn restrictions, access restrictions etc.and so are always likely to some extent to suggest an unsuitable route. Let's get the underlying data straight, AND do what we can to get the consumers of the data to fix up their end. Colin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 02/19/2011 06:24 PM, Paul Norman wrote: The Massey Tunnel is currently tagged with oneway=no on the reversible section and through the tunnel itself. For the reversible sections (that lead up to the tunnel) they really alternate between oneway=-1, oneway=yes and access=no. For the two parallel tunnels themselves they alternate between oneway=yes and oneway=no. The approaches are either oneway=yes or access=no, though, depending on the signals. I'm not sure what the solution is, but oneway=reversible isn't a special case of oneway=yes so it would break existing data consumers. I'm not sure any way that reverses based on traffic signals really qualifies as oneway=yes, for that reason. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 02/19/2011 08:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 2/19/2011 7:24 PM, Paul Norman wrote: The Massey Tunnel is currently tagged with oneway=no on the reversible section and through the tunnel itself. For the reversible sections (that lead up to the tunnel) they really alternate between oneway=-1, oneway=yes and access=no. For the two parallel tunnels themselves they alternate between oneway=yes and oneway=no. I'm not sure what the solution is, but oneway=reversible isn't a special case of oneway=yes so it would break existing data consumers. Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/20/11 8:51 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/19/2011 08:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. well, on the other hand, GPS users have been known to sue when the GPS led them to do stupid things. irrespective of whether the mythical we are responsible, the lawsuit still has to be defended. so i suggest thinking it through and considering the situation carefully. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/20/2011 9:57 PM, Richard Welty wrote: On 2/20/11 8:51 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On 02/19/2011 08:08 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? This whole question suggests that we're somehow responsible for data consumers paying more attention to their navigation than what's out their windshield, which is an entirely specious argument for obvious reasons. well, on the other hand, GPS users have been known to sue when the GPS led them to do stupid things. irrespective of whether the mythical we are responsible, the lawsuit still has to be defended. so i suggest thinking it through and considering the situation carefully. It has nothing to do with liability. It's simply good practice to give someone a route they can follow at all times unless they specify details. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 02/16/2011 11:59 PM, James Mast wrote: I'm just curious here, but is there a general consensus on how to tag roads that have 3+ lanes that have 1 or more lanes that change direction at certain times while still leaving at least one lane going in each direction? You know, kinda like the Lions Gate Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_Gate_Bridge) where the center lane changes direction to favor the traffic flow at specific times during the day? oneway=reversible doesn't really work in this case unless we ever have a lane proposal that's approved. Using the Lion's Gate example, the outside lanes are only able to display a red X on the contraflow direction, with only the center lane changing directions (though the two right lanes when facing the fronts of the signal gantries are able to display both colored arrows and red X to indicate lane closures even though the outside lanes aren't capable of reversing). This is a single way that is never completely one-way. A better example would be the George Massey Tunnel on 99, which omits the oneway= tag completely on both motorways in the contraflow sections. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/19/2011 4:33 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: A better example would be the George Massey Tunnel on 99, which omits the oneway= tag completely on both motorways in the contraflow sections. According to the wiki, highway=motorway* implies oneway=yes (meaning it's always oneway in the drawn direction), so you'd need a oneway tag to override this. But oneway=no is incorrect; oneway=reversible is a reasonable replacement when it's sometimes oneway=yes, sometimes oneway=-1, and maybe sometimes oneway=no. Other tags could then be used to indicate when it's oneway in which direction (if the times are fixed). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
The Massey Tunnel is currently tagged with oneway=no on the reversible section and through the tunnel itself. For the reversible sections (that lead up to the tunnel) they really alternate between oneway=-1, oneway=yes and access=no. For the two parallel tunnels themselves they alternate between oneway=yes and oneway=no. I'm not sure what the solution is, but oneway=reversible isn't a special case of oneway=yes so it would break existing data consumers. -Original Message- From: Nathan Edgars II [mailto:nerou...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 1:54 PM To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes On 2/19/2011 4:33 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: A better example would be the George Massey Tunnel on 99, which omits the oneway= tag completely on both motorways in the contraflow sections. According to the wiki, highway=motorway* implies oneway=yes (meaning it's always oneway in the drawn direction), so you'd need a oneway tag to override this. But oneway=no is incorrect; oneway=reversible is a reasonable replacement when it's sometimes oneway=yes, sometimes oneway=-1, and maybe sometimes oneway=no. Other tags could then be used to indicate when it's oneway in which direction (if the times are fixed). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/19/2011 7:24 PM, Paul Norman wrote: The Massey Tunnel is currently tagged with oneway=no on the reversible section and through the tunnel itself. For the reversible sections (that lead up to the tunnel) they really alternate between oneway=-1, oneway=yes and access=no. For the two parallel tunnels themselves they alternate between oneway=yes and oneway=no. I'm not sure what the solution is, but oneway=reversible isn't a special case of oneway=yes so it would break existing data consumers. Don't we want to break existing consumers if they might route people the wrong way down a one-way highway? If you're familiar with the I-5 express lanes in Seattle, that's the type of thing where oneway=reversible makes sense - a single roadway that is always one-way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RockCreekParkway_directions.jpg shows a related case where the road is one-way during rush hours but two-way at other times (thus a router would be wrong to treat it as two-way). Ideally the map would use a special symbol for these and people wouldn't rely so much on the bloody router. It looks like the Massey Tunnel is more complicated in that you can always go through it but usually only in one of the tubes. This is very similar to the original question of how to handle a road where some of the lanes in the center are reversible, with the complication of a dual carriageway. I'm not sure what I'd do here. By the way, http://www.flickr.com/photos/talkingdc/303066179/ does a good job (other than the am/pm error) of showing an example of the original question. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
Alright, I've tagged the roadway that I was asking this about with the following: lanes=3 lanes:counterflow=center That should work for now. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/24873632 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
James Mast schreef op vr 18-02-2011 om 05:00 [-0500]: Alright, I've tagged the roadway that I was asking this about with the following: lanes=3 lanes:counterflow=center Don't you want to descripe the center lane? So lane(s):center=counterflow makes more sense to me. Michiel ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/18/2011 5:00 AM, James Mast wrote: Alright, I've tagged the roadway that I was asking this about with the following: lanes=3 lanes:counterflow=center I believe the word is contraflow. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 18/02/2011 15:23, Nathan Edgars II wrote: I believe the word is contraflow. Contraflow is certainly the version always used in the UK (generally preceded by an expletive, as in stuck in a *** contraflow for two hours). A quick web search found both counterflow and contraflow; maybe counterflowis the Canadian word for it? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
NE2, contraflow is for stuff like when an entire highway is reveresed in an emergancy (like an evacuation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraflow_lane_reversal I did use the correct one here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterflow_lane Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:23:55 -0500 From: nerou...@gmail.com To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes On 2/18/2011 5:00 AM, James Mast wrote: Alright, I've tagged the roadway that I was asking this about with the following: lanes=3 lanes:counterflow=center I believe the word is contraflow. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/18/2011 8:40 PM, James Mast wrote: NE2, contraflow is for stuff like when an entire highway is reveresed in an emergancy (like an evacuation) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraflow_lane_reversal I did use the correct one here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterflow_lane A reversible lane (called a counterflow lane or contraflow lane in transport engineering nomenclature) According to your link, both are OK. I've personally seen contraflow, but the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority uses counterflow, so I guess they're both used. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
I've personally heard Contraflow mentioned for the switchover's some DOT's have on Interstates for Hurricane (or other) evacuations in the press. I know I-95 in Georgia happens to have two such crossovers, but they don't specifically say contraflow on the signs. Here are links to how they do it: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/rickmastfan67/Interstates/GA/I-95/P1000336s.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/rickmastfan67/Interstates/GA/I-95/P1000337s.jpg This is at MM 59. The pictures are from 2008. Meanwhile, I've mostly only heard the word counterflow around here. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On 2/17/2011 12:59 AM, James Mast wrote: I'm just curious here, but is there a general consensus on how to tag roads that have 3+ lanes that have 1 or more lanes that change direction at certain times while still leaving at least one lane going in each direction? You know, kinda like the Lions Gate Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions_Gate_Bridge) where the center lane changes direction to favor the traffic flow at specific times during the day? oneway=reversible doesn't really work in this case unless we ever have a lane proposal that's approved. I don't know if there's a benefit to being more specific than lanes=3 in this case. You can always make up something like lanes:reversible=1 and note:lanes=center lane changes direction until something better is worked out. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know if there's a benefit to being more specific than lanes=3 in Note that there's already a reasonable amount of traffic simulation being done based on OSM data. That work is dependent on the number of lanes being accurate. We can try to contact the authors of MATSIM to coordinate the tagging scheme with them. I think they want to know the number of lanes open during rush hour, after everything has been taken into account (reversible lanes, bus lanes etc). Fortunately there aren't too many reversible lanes in most cities. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:06:57 +0200 Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com wrote: Fortunately there aren't too many reversible lanes in most cities. Used a lot in Sydney to manage rush hour traffic I haven't lived there for 30 years so I don't know the current extent of the practice, but the Harbour Bridge which was 8 lanes had a minimum of two going against peak traffic flow max of 6 going with peak traffic flow and in quiet times 4 lanes each way. This means that a large number of feeder routes change direction I guess we might still have some Sydney-resident mappers left who can clarify how they have marked this. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com wrote: Note that there's already a reasonable amount of traffic simulation being done based on OSM data. Really? Cool...any online simulators? Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Counterflow Lanes
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Nic Roets nro...@gmail.com wrote: Note that there's already a reasonable amount of traffic simulation being done based on OSM data. Really? Cool...any online simulators? Not that I know of. Long ago I saw a map where projected traffic density was represented by different colours, but I can't find it right now. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
