Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Am 25.05.2015 um 20:58 schrieb Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: Creating a wikidata object out of a wikipedia article is a non issue. You just get an object with no attributes, only a link to the article. Even articles like Wikipedia disambiguation pages have wikidata objects: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1637547 yes, basically at the moment wikidata entities have almost the same issues as wp articles have (because they have been created from the articles) with the advantage of the capability of better handling of name changes cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 26 May 2015 at 00:35, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 25/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 22:18, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: How do you link to a wikidata label in an OSM tag ? One that never suffers from renaming ? As far as I know, we can/should only use wikidata ids, which are stable but not user friendly. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata I see nothing there that enables using a wikidata label in an OSM tag. The only reference to labels is a javascript library that does the API calls for you, which is a completely different usecase. You don't link to a Wikidata label, you link to a Wikidata item. merges and splits on the wikipedia side ? New bridging items are created. Interesting. Where can I find examples and doc ? Ask on Wikidata's Project chat. Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. Example? An hypothetical example: I was asking for a real example. a hotel that includes a restaurant. OSM uses two objects from the begining, both linked to the single wikidata article that talks about the hotel as a whole. OSM should only link the hotel item to the Wikipedia article. The restaurant later gets spun off as an independent business and get its own wikidata item (either a split or a new one), but OSM still links to the hotel as a whole wikidata item. This is no different to a new Wikipedia article being created. Does wikidata have some tricks up its sleeve to reliably deal with that kind of problem ? No. Does a highway system have a trick up its sleeve for when a new road is built, that OSM doesn't yet know about? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Am 26.05.2015 um 11:11 schrieb Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: a hotel that includes a restaurant. OSM uses two objects from the begining, both linked to the single wikidata article that talks about the hotel as a whole. OSM should only link the hotel item to the Wikipedia article. why's that, if the article deals with the restaurant it could be linked to it, no? My main concern with wikidata for the moment: it's mostly as fuzzy as Wikipedia is - because the objects are not created by humans but conversions of articles. Using only wikidata would mean we are sure that wikidata will be a success. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 26 May 2015 at 10:25, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: how can you edit wikidata? https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Introduction -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 26/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: My main concern with wikidata for the moment: it's mostly as fuzzy as Wikipedia is - because the objects are not created by humans but conversions of articles. Using only wikidata would mean we are sure that wikidata will be a success. Agreed. I initially tought that wikidata was mostly human-curated, which led me to believe that it could only play catch-up with wikipedia in terms of content and that wikidata items would not always be available for OSM tags. The fact that pedia and data are kept so tightly in sync (one being a metadata backend for the other) is a mixed blessing. It's nice that you can always count on a wikipedia item existing if the pedia article exists, but it adds a lot of noise. The combination of stable ids and tracking non-stable articles means that a lot of bloat must accumulate. Seeing that there's 13.9M wikidata items for 4.8M English wikipedia articles doesn't reasure me (I know it's not all bloat, but still). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
I wouldn't deprecate the wikipedia tags either. They give a human readable form of what is hopefully the same item on WD. I only hope that we won't stop at adding only the WP tags. Also I don't think anybody is adding name:etymology:wikipedia tags, but we do have name:etymology:wikidata So a usecase: Say you want to locate all the streets and other objects named after 17th century Dutch painters, worldwide. You could start by finding the painters from wikidata, then use the Overpass API to do a regular expression search with all the resulting Q-numbers. If we on the OSM side have been meticulous about adding name:etymology:wikidata to all those objects that could show a nice result. No idea how useful it would be, of course... I did something like that for Guido Gezelle: https://nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guido_Gezellesection=11#Tastbare_gedenktekens http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/9Aa Note that looking for Gezelle on its own, would also find street names with the Dutch word Gezellen (companions [archaic]) in it. So the wikidata identifier is more robust (on condition the contributors who added the wikidata tags verified their work, of course). And it's a lot of work to do this for all artists/writers/ etc, but then, so is creating a map from scratch. Polyglot 2015-05-26 12:23 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: On 26/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: You don't link to a Wikidata label, you link to a Wikidata item. QED, you can only use wikidata IDs such as Q936 in OSM tags, which is much less userfriendly than the wikipedia equivalent. You brought wikidata labels to the discussion; they're nice but they're irrelevant for OSM tags. Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. Example? An hypothetical example: I was asking for a real example. Why ? My example illustrates a genuine concern. If it's unfounded (I'd love it is was), please explain why (I'm still no wikidata expert). Dismissing because it's not a documented occurence doesn't help. I used an hypotetical example because finding an actual one is hard. If it was easy, the problem would go away because contributors would find and fix them. a hotel that includes a restaurant. OSM uses two objects from the begining, both linked to the single wikidata article that talks about the hotel as a whole. OSM should only link the hotel item to the Wikipedia article. There only one pedia/data article/item at this stage in my example, so of course OSM links to that. Did you mean linking to wikidata ? This example is meant to verify how much more failsafe wikidata links are compared to wikipedia ones, so I'm just looking at the wikidata tags in osm usecase. The restaurant later gets spun off as an independent business and get its own wikidata item (either a split or a new one), but OSM still links to the hotel as a whole wikidata item. This is no different to a new Wikipedia article being created. I thought that wikidata could help by keeping a bridge item that shows that the hotel and restaurant used to be part of the same item ? Does wikidata have some tricks up its sleeve to reliably deal with that kind of problem ? No. Does a highway system have a trick up its sleeve for when a new road is built, that OSM doesn't yet know about? Please don't be so defensive, I'm actually trying to assert the advantages of wikidata for osm tags. To me the unfriendly ids are a big downside of wikidata, so the upsides (stability and localised version) need to be strong enough to offset that. From what I've read so far, we want to have both wikipedia and wikidata tags for each object in OSM. The pedia ones for mapper/humans, and the data ones for programs/QA. Neither is perfect, but the combination of both is a bit better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 26 May 2015 at 10:36, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 26.05.2015 um 11:11 schrieb Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: a hotel that includes a restaurant. OSM uses two objects from the begining, both linked to the single wikidata article that talks about the hotel as a whole. OSM should only link the hotel item to the Wikipedia article. For the same reason you wouldn't link to the Wikidata item from the OSM object for an elevator or the hotel's swimming pool. My main concern with wikidata for the moment: it's mostly as fuzzy as Wikipedia is - because the objects are not created by humans but conversions of articles. So? And in any case, your claim is false; Wikdiata tems are created both by bots and by humans. If you feel there is an issue, please provide concrete examples of real problem items, rather than making vague assertions with no evidence. Using only wikidata would mean we are sure that wikidata will be a success. It is. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 26/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: You don't link to a Wikidata label, you link to a Wikidata item. QED, you can only use wikidata IDs such as Q936 in OSM tags, which is much less userfriendly than the wikipedia equivalent. You brought wikidata labels to the discussion; they're nice but they're irrelevant for OSM tags. Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. Example? An hypothetical example: I was asking for a real example. Why ? My example illustrates a genuine concern. If it's unfounded (I'd love it is was), please explain why (I'm still no wikidata expert). Dismissing because it's not a documented occurence doesn't help. I used an hypotetical example because finding an actual one is hard. If it was easy, the problem would go away because contributors would find and fix them. a hotel that includes a restaurant. OSM uses two objects from the begining, both linked to the single wikidata article that talks about the hotel as a whole. OSM should only link the hotel item to the Wikipedia article. There only one pedia/data article/item at this stage in my example, so of course OSM links to that. Did you mean linking to wikidata ? This example is meant to verify how much more failsafe wikidata links are compared to wikipedia ones, so I'm just looking at the wikidata tags in osm usecase. The restaurant later gets spun off as an independent business and get its own wikidata item (either a split or a new one), but OSM still links to the hotel as a whole wikidata item. This is no different to a new Wikipedia article being created. I thought that wikidata could help by keeping a bridge item that shows that the hotel and restaurant used to be part of the same item ? Does wikidata have some tricks up its sleeve to reliably deal with that kind of problem ? No. Does a highway system have a trick up its sleeve for when a new road is built, that OSM doesn't yet know about? Please don't be so defensive, I'm actually trying to assert the advantages of wikidata for osm tags. To me the unfriendly ids are a big downside of wikidata, so the upsides (stability and localised version) need to be strong enough to offset that. From what I've read so far, we want to have both wikipedia and wikidata tags for each object in OSM. The pedia ones for mapper/humans, and the data ones for programs/QA. Neither is perfect, but the combination of both is a bit better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Am 25.05.2015 um 21:18 schrieb Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de: Since wikipedia migrated the interwikilinks (the link which are connecting the article in language a of something to all other articles in a different language about that same topic) it is where you get links to articles in all available language. does anyone know if and how Wikipedia and wikidata are kept in sync? I remember finding some problematic interwikilinks in the past, where similar but not identical concepts had been linked against each other - and the better fitting article of a particular language wasn't linked. Where will these be fixed? Also: how can you edit wikidata? cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Am 26.05.2015 um 12:08 schrieb Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Introduction Thank you for this pointer, it's appreciated. Are there definitions for the properties? I have had a look at the examples and landed here: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P106 is this about a profession one has learnt or the work that one does? Maybe it's a language problem but it seems completely messed up: in German the main translation is occupation with profession amongst the synonyms, while in Italian profession is the main translation and occupation amongst the synonyms. In English there is a list of different words with similar but also not equal meaning (job, work, career, profession, employment). I am missing a short statement that describes the actual meaning of this property rather than listing words with similar meanings which make it actually less clear. The translations also augment the confusion rather then help. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
uto, 26. svi 2015. 11:20 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com je napisao: yes, basically at the moment wikidata entities have almost the same issues as wp articles have (because they have been created from the articles) with the advantage of the capability of better handling of name changes I remember reading a Wikidata mailing list post about just that problem. And they suggested something like adding two more wikidata items that reference the original article with a property like is a part of the article. I'll try to find that property. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Am 26.05.2015 um 12:46 schrieb Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Also I don't think anybody is adding name:etymology:wikipedia tags, but we do have name:etymology:wikidata there are a few tags like that: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=%3Awikipedia I agree that wikidata is better for these kind of things cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de wrote: Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags I agree that Wikidata tags are much better, and to be preferred. However, it is easier for a novice (in either OSM or Wikipedia terms) to add a Wikipedia tag; another editor, or a bot, can then convert it to a Wikidata tag. I do strongly urge fellow editors to add Wikdiata atgs whenver appraoraite, bit for objects, and for things like etymologies, architects etc. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
It must not be more difficult for a novice if the editor supports fetching the wikidata item when a wikipedia-tag is present. On 2015-05-25 14:40, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de wrote: Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags I agree that Wikidata tags are much better, and to be preferred. However, it is easier for a novice (in either OSM or Wikipedia terms) to add a Wikipedia tag; another editor, or a bot, can then convert it to a Wikidata tag. I do strongly urge fellow editors to add Wikdiata atgs whenver appraoraite, bit for objects, and for things like etymologies, architects etc. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
I think for most people, especially the more casual ones using ID, it will be easier to map wikipedia tags so I think we should keep it. Long term it would probably be great to have a automated system that just pulls the Wikidata ID when you put in a wikipedia, but I don't think that will happen soon. Hallo List, I started mapping wikidata tags some time ago. Those are great because you can find wikipedia articles in any language you want (not only the 'primary' language) and and plenty of other information which might be interesting for your project. Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags. Of course there are plenty of projects which doesn't support wikidata yet but I'm sure if the tags are there they will follow. Regards Thorsten ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de wrote: Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? That suggestion sounds to me as bizarre as wanting to replace English with French. Everybody be happy, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Ok, No. Having the wikidata-tag enables an application to select the wikipedia-article in the language of the users choice or to easily load additional information from wikidata like a cities crest for displaying. The advantage would be that a user wouldn't get the German article because its a German object but the article in his preferred language. Saying I wanna destroy wikipedia is a bit harsch since I only asked for opinions. Thorsten ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? So when people stop linking to Wikipedia, Wikipedia will be destroyed ? Or do I miss something here ? regards m ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On Mon May 25 14:29:21 2015 GMT+0100, Marc Gemis wrote: On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? So when people stop linking to Wikipedia, Wikipedia will be destroyed ? Or do I miss something here ? I think a lot of us mappers are going to need a lot of convincing, wikipedia tags, in common with other osm tags, are human readable. When reviewing changes I do not see a number that is meaningless without following the link, and even then the wikidata page looks pretty meaningless. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Le lun. 25 mai 2015 à 15:08 +0200, André Pirard a écrit : On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de wrote: Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? Wikidata has one more advantage : sometimes, Wikipedia pages are renamed (bad initial convention, or real-life renaming, or whatever), whereas Wikidata items identifiers (Q...), are persistent for unique concepts. In WP, renaming is rare, but not very rare, so relying on wikidata would increase the overall robustness of OSM/wiki* integration. -- ° /\Guillaume AllègreOpenStreetMap France /~~\/\ allegre.guilla...@free.fr Cartographie libre et collaborative / /~~\tél. 04.76.63.26.99 http://www.openstreetmap.fr ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
ikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to some extent. Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015, p...@trigpoint.me.uk p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I think a lot of us mappers are going to need a lot of convincing, wikipedia tags, in common with other osm tags, are human readable. When reviewing changes I do not see a number that is meaningless without following the link, and even then the wikidata page looks pretty meaningless. Also, a lot of wikipedia articles do not (yet) have a wikidata counterpart. As OSM is quite a time sink already, I am not going to start creating wikidata (or even wikipedia) articles when none exist for an OSM object I'm editing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015, Guillaume Allegre allegre.guilla...@free.fr wrote: I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? Wikidata has one more advantage : sometimes, Wikipedia pages are renamed (bad initial convention, or real-life renaming, or whatever), whereas Wikidata items identifiers (Q...), are persistent for unique concepts. I don't think that anybody claimed that wikidata tags were not desirable, nor a superset of wikipedia tags. The objections are about the idea that the wikipedia tag should be deprecated in favor of the wikidata tag : * wikipedia names are friendlyer to mappers, and generally more well-known * wikidata objects don't necessarily exist for all wikipedia articles we want to use * For data consumers wanting to show the wikipedia article (by far the most common usecase), using the wikipedia tag is much more straightforward than using the wikidata tag (leaving the language and renames issues to more meticulous data consumers). So. I'm quite happy with the status quo, having both wikipedia and wikidata tags in OSM. I'm sure there's a QA tool somewhere that can point ou discrepancy between the two tags, if need be. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
2015-05-25 16:24 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: Also, a lot of wikipedia articles do not (yet) have a wikidata counterpart. I thought all wikipedia articles had been transformed into wikidata entities (that's what I was told from a guy from wikimedia). The big difference that I see that could be there (in theory, the current situation wasn't like that when I had looked at it some months ago): wikidata is about entities. wikipedia articles are that: articles, they could deal with different (wikidata) entities in the same article. Actually they do, if you look at what in osm is place and admin, the articles often (but not always) refer to both of them, while for wikidata it does always make a difference (IIRR). Like others have said before, for me the problem with wikidata tags at the moment is still, that we don't have particular editor support for them, so that you have to follow the link in order to see what the tag is about and spot possible errors or control what you have just entered yourself. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-25 16:24 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: Also, a lot of wikipedia articles do not (yet) have a wikidata counterpart. I thought all wikipedia articles had been transformed into wikidata entities (that's what I was told from a guy from wikimedia). The big difference that I see that could be there (in theory, the current situation wasn't like that when I had looked at it some months ago): wikidata is about entities. wikipedia articles are that: articles, they could deal with different (wikidata) entities in the same article. Actually they do, if you look at what in osm is place and admin, the articles often (but not always) refer to both of them, while for wikidata it does always make a difference (IIRR). I admit not knowing wikidata that well, so the following might be misinformed : There can't be a mapping from every wikipedia article to a corresponding wikidata id. Where in wikidata would you link all the wikipedia List of Foo articles for example ? And if I'm creating a new article for that restaurant I like, how does the corresponding wikidata object get created and linked ? Automatically creating wikipedia articles out of wikidata objects shouldn't be too hard. The reverse seems unlikely. As far as I understand, wikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to some extent. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Hi, * Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de [150525 15:24]: Having the wikidata-tag enables an application to select the wikipedia-article in the language of the users choice or to easily load additional information from wikidata like a cities crest for displaying. The advantage would be that a user wouldn't get the German article because its a German object but the article in his preferred language. well, due to Wikipedias interlanguage links, that's equally possible with Wikipedia links. That's why our Wiki suggests to add only one language version of the Wikipedia link and not multiple links. As far as I can see Wikipedia articles usually link to the corresponding Wikidata entry, so any application could get the same information regardless of us providing a Wikipedia or a Wikidata link in the OSM database. Wolfgang ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
Well thats a good point. But in my opinion thats where the editor should support the mapper and load the Description from Wikidata and maybe a list of available languages for wikipedia articles. I think a lot of us mappers are going to need a lot of convincing, wikipedia tags, in common with other osm tags, are human readable. When reviewing changes I do not see a number that is meaningless without following the link, and even then the wikidata page looks pretty meaningless. Phil (trigpoint ) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 2015-05-25 15:29, Marc Gemis wrote : On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:08 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote: I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? So when people stop linking to Wikipedia, Wikipedia will be destroyed ? Or do I miss something here ? It's better understood with the full quote, Marc ... On 2015-05-25 15:08, André Pirard wrote : On 25 May 2015 at 13:18, Thorsten Alge li...@thorsten-alge.de wrote: Since wikidata will be the center of all Wikimedia wikis it might be better to link to wikidata items instead of wikipedia article. Thats why I wonder what you think of deprecating the wikipedia tags (NOT DELETING any of them) and focus on wikidata tags I already replied that I wonder what's the idea behind that enforcement. Why wouldn't Wikidata be used also rather than instead? Is it really a goal of OSM insisting to destroy Wikipedia? That suggestion sounds to me as bizarre as wanting to replace English with French. Everybody be happy, The question is not people stopping linking to Wikipedia, it is commanding them to do so. deprecating Wikipedia for OSM is causing the destruction of its OSM usage. Should Wikipedia become less interesting, the deprecation will happen by itself. André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25 May 2015 at 17:13, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: * wikipedia names are friendlyer to mappers, and generally more well-known Wikidata labels should be more useful, contain less redundancy, and be no less well-known. For example, High Street rather than High Street, Birmingham * wikidata objects don't necessarily exist for all wikipedia articles we want to use Apart from newly created Wikipedia articles, with a Wikidata item not far behind, the reverse is true. * For data consumers wanting to show the wikipedia article (by far the most common usecase), using the wikipedia tag is much more straightforward than using the wikidata tag Except when the Wikipedia article has been moved and the old name reused. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015 19:14, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections Ok, maybe that one doesn't count because it's kind of metadata that doesn't belong in wikidata. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4434286 -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25 May 2015 at 17:32, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I thought all wikipedia articles had been transformed into wikidata entities (that's what I was told from a guy from wikimedia). He was correct. The big difference that I see that could be there (in theory, the current situation wasn't like that when I had looked at it some months ago): wikidata is about entities. wikipedia articles are that: articles, they could deal with different (wikidata) entities in the same article. Then we also create a Wikidata item for the higher-level concept (Bonnie and Clyde being the popular example). Like others have said before, for me the problem with wikidata tags at the moment is still, that we don't have particular editor support for them, so that you have to follow the link in order to see what the tag is about and spot possible errors or control what you have just entered yourself. That seems to be a chicken-and-egg problem. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
pon, 25. svi 2015. 18:57 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com je napisao: Automatically creating wikipedia articles out of wikidata objects shouldn't be too hard. The reverse seems unlikely. As far as I understand, wikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to some extent. Creating a wikidata object out of a wikipedia article is a non issue. You just get an object with no attributes, only a link to the article. Even articles like Wikipedia disambiguation pages have wikidata objects: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1637547 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25 May 2015 at 19:14, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections Ok, maybe that one doesn't count because it's kind of metadata that doesn't belong in wikidata. No, it doesn't count because the corresponding Wikidata item is: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4434286 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Campagne_(restaurant)action=history https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q15207004action=history Hum, 2 months lag between data and pedia. Technically it proves my point about the lag No it doesn't. That is from 2013, when Wikidata was new Try a more recent item. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whiddy_Island_Disasteraction=history https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q780440action=history 3.5 years is worse That Wikipedia article was created in January 2009. Wikidata launched on 30 October 2012. The Wikidata item was created in December 2012 . No time to look for more right now. Didn't find wikidata links on the wikipedia articles, it would have made search faster. In the standard desktop view, it's under Wikdiata item, in the left-hand menu. If, instead of asking rhetoric questions, you can shed light on some inner workings of wikidata that garanties that all OSM-worthy objects with a wikipedia article will also have a wikidata item (and vice-versa), I'd be happy to forget about that imagined downside of wikidata compared to wikipedia. Not all OSM worthy objects will have a Wikdiata item; but then not all Wikidata worthy items will have a Wikipedia article. Why would they? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 17:13, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: * wikipedia names are friendlyer to mappers, and generally more well-known Wikidata labels should be more useful, contain less redundancy, and be no less well-known. For example, High Street rather than High Street, Birmingham How do you link to a wikidata label in an OSM tag ? One that never suffers from renaming ? As far as I know, we can/should only use wikidata ids, which are stable but not user friendly. * wikidata objects don't necessarily exist for all wikipedia articles we want to use Apart from newly created Wikipedia articles, with a Wikidata item not far behind, the reverse is true. Thanks to all who countered my examples. I see now that, even if wikidata may lag a bit (any stats to define a bit ?), there should be a wikidata item for every wikipedia article. * For data consumers wanting to show the wikipedia article (by far the most common usecase), using the wikipedia tag is much more straightforward than using the wikidata tag Except when the Wikipedia article has been moved and the old name reused. I had also mentioned rename issues. Why leave that sentense out of the quote and then restate it ? Of course ignoring renames and not taking advantage of the API to find the translated article is a bad thing, and no consumers should do that... But in the real world, most consumers will use the wikipedia tag instead. Because it's obvious, and because a simple regexp-replace will give you the url to forward the user to, instead of having to query so wikidata REST api. And when those consumers eventually encounter an OSM object that has a wikipedia tag but not wikidata, they'll display nothing. Which is why we should keep wikipedia tags (along with the human-friendly IDs). And when both wikipedia and wikidata tags are present, we can QA that they are in sync (just like we currently QA that website an wikipedia are not 404). Speaking of stable ids, how does wikidata handle renames, merges and splits on the wikipedia side ? Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: ikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to some extent. Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections Ok, maybe that one doesn't count because it's kind of metadata that doesn't belong in wikidata. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Campagne_(restaurant)action=history https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q15207004action=history Hum, 2 months lag between data and pedia. Technically it proves my point about the lag, but it isn't too bad. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whiddy_Island_Disasteraction=history https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q780440action=history 3.5 years is worse, but maybe the import-from-pedia bot wasn't active until recently ? No time to look for more right now. Didn't find wikidata links on the wikipedia articles, it would have made search faster. I admit the lag is fairly short, and many pedia article that I didn't expect to find in wikidata were in fact there. Your confidence in wikidata indicates that you know it well, which I've stated is not my case. If, instead of asking rhetoric questions, you can shed light on some inner workings of wikidata that garanties that all OSM-worthy objects with a wikipedia article will also have a wikidata item (and vice-versa), I'd be happy to forget about that imagined downside of wikidata compared to wikipedia. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
I'm not shure what it way you wanted to prove with these links. All of these articles have wikidata items linked to them. All new articles get wikidata items short after creation. Have a look in the left sidebar. Since wikipedia migrated the interwikilinks (the link which are connecting the article in language a of something to all other articles in a different language about that same topic) it is where you get links to articles in all available language. On 2015-05-25 20:14, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: On 25/05/2015, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: ikidata will always be playing catch-up to wikipedia, to some extent. Can you just show me a single Wikipedia entry without a Wikidata object. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_map_projections Ok, maybe that one doesn't count because it's kind of metadata that doesn't belong in wikidata. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Campagne_(restaurant)action=history https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q15207004action=history Hum, 2 months lag between data and pedia. Technically it proves my point about the lag, but it isn't too bad. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whiddy_Island_Disasteraction=history https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q780440action=history 3.5 years is worse, but maybe the import-from-pedia bot wasn't active until recently ? No time to look for more right now. Didn't find wikidata links on the wikipedia articles, it would have made search faster. I admit the lag is fairly short, and many pedia article that I didn't expect to find in wikidata were in fact there. Your confidence in wikidata indicates that you know it well, which I've stated is not my case. If, instead of asking rhetoric questions, you can shed light on some inner workings of wikidata that garanties that all OSM-worthy objects with a wikipedia article will also have a wikidata item (and vice-versa), I'd be happy to forget about that imagined downside of wikidata compared to wikipedia. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 May 2015 at 22:18, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: How do you link to a wikidata label in an OSM tag ? One that never suffers from renaming ? As far as I know, we can/should only use wikidata ids, which are stable but not user friendly. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata I see nothing there that enables using a wikidata label in an OSM tag. The only reference to labels is a javascript library that does the API calls for you, which is a completely different usecase. I had also mentioned rename issues. Why leave that sentense out of the quote and then restate it ? You wrote using the wikipedia tag is much more straightforward than using the wikidata tag (leaving the language and renames issues to more meticulous data consumers); my point apllies to all reusesrs, bnit just the more meticulous. We agree, just a misunderstanding on the wording. All users of the wikipedia tag will have issues with renames. The more meticulous consumers will use the wikidata tag instead, which avoids rename issues. Which is why we should keep wikipedia tags (along with the human-friendly IDs). But as already shown, Wikipedia tags have a higher-rate of link rot. Yes. I'm not saying that wikipedia tags are better. Just that we need to keep them, for better or worse. And when both wikipedia and wikidata tags are present, we can QA that they are in sync (just like we currently QA that website an wikipedia are not 404). Who will do that QA? I know Keepright does, and I'd be surprised if Osmose doesn't. Speaking of stable ids, how does wikidata handle renames, Links from the Wikidata item are updated. Ok, I assumed as much. merges and splits on the wikipedia side ? New bridging items are created. Interesting. Where can I find examples and doc ? Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. Example? An hypothetical example: a hotel that includes a restaurant. OSM uses two objects from the begining, both linked to the single wikidata article that talks about the hotel as a whole. The restaurant later gets spun off as an independent business and get its own wikidata item (either a split or a new one), but OSM still links to the hotel as a whole wikidata item. Does wikidata have some tricks up its sleeve to reliably deal with that kind of problem ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 5:18 AM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking of stable ids, how does wikidata handle renames, merges and splits on the wikipedia side ? Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. At least for renames, Wikidata gets automatically updated (and the changes in Wikidata are registered under the user account of the Wikipedian who did the rename). In fact, many Wikipedians have Wikidata edits that they don't realize they did because they have renamed articles. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecating wikipedia Tag
On 25 May 2015 at 22:18, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: How do you link to a wikidata label in an OSM tag ? One that never suffers from renaming ? As far as I know, we can/should only use wikidata ids, which are stable but not user friendly. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata * For data consumers wanting to show the wikipedia article (by far the most common usecase), using the wikipedia tag is much more straightforward than using the wikidata tag Except when the Wikipedia article has been moved and the old name reused. I had also mentioned rename issues. Why leave that sentense out of the quote and then restate it ? You wrote using the wikipedia tag is much more straightforward than using the wikidata tag (leaving the language and renames issues to more meticulous data consumers); my point apllies to all reusesrs, bnit just the more meticulous. Of course ignoring renames and not taking advantage of the API to find the translated article is a bad thing, and no consumers should do that... But in the real world, most consumers will use the wikipedia tag instead. Because it's obvious, and because a simple regexp-replace will give you the url to forward the user to, instead of having to query so wikidata REST api. And when those consumers eventually encounter an OSM object that has a wikipedia tag but not wikidata, they'll display nothing. Which is why we should keep wikipedia tags (along with the human-friendly IDs). But as already shown, Wikipedia tags have a higher-rate of link rot. And when both wikipedia and wikidata tags are present, we can QA that they are in sync (just like we currently QA that website an wikipedia are not 404). Who will do that QA? Speaking of stable ids, how does wikidata handle renames, Links from the Wikidata item are updated. merges and splits on the wikipedia side ? New bridging items are created. Even in the best-case scenario, it seems that an OSM wikidata tag can drift off-target following reorganisations that are correct from a wikimedia POV but not from an OSM POV. Example? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
