[Talk-transit] open transit map?
Hi, I wonder if any transit map is available like openstreetmap.org and opencyclemap.org. I tried opentransitmap.org without success:-) Cheers. Bin -- Bin Jiang Division of Geomatics, KTH Research School Department of Technology and Built Environment University of Gävle, SE-801 76 Gävle, Sweden Phone: +46-26-64 8901Fax: +46-26-64 8828 Email: bin.ji...@hig.se Web: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ European Associate Editor Computers, Environment and Urban Systems: An International Journal NordGISci: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/NordGISci/ ICA Commission: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ica/ ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] open transit map?
Bin Jiang bin.ji...@hig.se schrieb: Hi, I wonder if any transit map is available like openstreetmap.org and opencyclemap.org. I tried opentransitmap.org without success:-) Try http://www.öpnvkarte.de/ Although, I am not sure how much of the world is covered. Cheers, Christoph Cheers. Bin -- Bin Jiang Division of Geomatics, KTH Research School Department of Technology and Built Environment University of Gävle, SE-801 76 Gävle, Sweden Phone: +46-26-64 8901Fax: +46-26-64 8828 Email: bin.ji...@hig.se Web: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ European Associate Editor Computers, Environment and Urban Systems: An International Journal NordGISci: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/NordGISci/ ICA Commission: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ica/ ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] open transit map?
HI, looks wonderful, but where can I down the transit data? Sorry for if its a naive question. Cheers. Bin Christoph Böhme wrote: Bin Jiang bin.ji...@hig.se schrieb: Hi, I wonder if any transit map is available like openstreetmap.org and opencyclemap.org. I tried opentransitmap.org without success:-) Try http://www.öpnvkarte.de/ Although, I am not sure how much of the world is covered. Cheers, Christoph Cheers. Bin -- -- Bin Jiang Division of Geomatics, KTH Research School Department of Technology and Built Environment University of Gävle, SE-801 76 Gävle, Sweden Phone: +46-26-64 8901Fax: +46-26-64 8828 Email: bin.ji...@hig.se Web: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ European Associate Editor Computers, Environment and Urban Systems: An International Journal NordGISci: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/NordGISci/ ICA Commission: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ica/ ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] open transit map?
On 29 Sep 2009, at 20:20, Bin Jiang wrote: HI, looks wonderful, but where can I down the transit data? Sorry for if its a naive question. The routes are encoded in OSM as relations. Here is an example bus route:- http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/190701 Regards, Peter Cheers. Bin Christoph Böhme wrote: Bin Jiang bin.ji...@hig.se schrieb: Hi, I wonder if any transit map is available like openstreetmap.org and opencyclemap.org. I tried opentransitmap.org without success:-) Try http://www.öpnvkarte.de/ Although, I am not sure how much of the world is covered. Cheers, Christoph Cheers. Bin -- -- Bin Jiang Division of Geomatics, KTH Research School Department of Technology and Built Environment University of Gävle, SE-801 76 Gävle, Sweden Phone: +46-26-64 8901Fax: +46-26-64 8828 Email: bin.ji...@hig.se Web: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ European Associate Editor Computers, Environment and Urban Systems: An International Journal NordGISci: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/NordGISci/ ICA Commission: http://fromto.hig.se/~bjg/ica/ ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [talk-ph] Tropical Storm Ondoy: are you guys ok?
I just had a look at the map. It's a bit slow, anyway we can update and speed things up? Or can we port it to another server? On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Andre Marcelo-Tanner an...@enthropia.com wrote: Ah here we go, managed to import their KML into Umapper, so now we can see the map using OSM http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/42152 Its not a network link though, so its a static update. Tried to import a KML Network Link of Flickr photos but not sure if that worked. Andre ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
Hello, More information: Typhoon Ketsana[1] brought massive flooding to the Philippines. In just 12 hours, rainfall to Metropolitan Manila has brought more water than the monthly September average and has broken a 1967 rainfall record. There has been already around 240 people who are confirmed dead. Aside from Maning, another OpenStreetMapper, Ed Garcia[2], was also affected. His house is in Marikina, one of the cities most affected, and it has been submerged in water and mud. He and his family were able to evacuate to a neighbor who has a two-story house. Aside from the mapping aspect, if you would personally like to help directly, the Philippine National Red Cross will accept donations via PayPal. Their PayPal address is g...@redcross.org.ph [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29 [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ed_waypointsdotph Thanks, Eugene On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, In case people in the international community didn't know, the Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1]. My family was affected as well, but we are OK now. Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief. As a mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute. We need to document whatever information we can compile so that volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the needs. The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas. Some members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to document what is currently happening on the ground [2]. I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project. What we currently need are: 1. A temporary server space we can use. 2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons list. 3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface) i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs water. This street has no electricity. Too much garbage on this street please collect now. This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs. I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing to coordinate efforts in some areas and collect field data around my mapping area. Please help us do this project. The hope is the information we gather and synthesize would be helpful. We do not need anything sophisticated at the moment we just need something running ASAP. Thanks in advance. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29 [2] http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/42152 -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Donations needed for the Philippines due to Tropical Storm Ketsana
Ack... I only realized now that I send this email to the wrong list. This should have gone to the main OSM mailing list. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.comwrote: Hello all, This mail has nothing directly to do with OSM but I would like to appeal for donations to help relief efforts here in the Philippines. As some of you may know, Tropical Storm Ketsana[1] brought torrential rain and flooding in Luzon island and in the capital area of Manila. In just 12 hours, rainfall to the metropolitan area has brought more water than the monthly September average and has broken a 1967 rainfall record. There has been around 70 people confirmed dead. We have confirmed that OpenStreetMapper Ed Garcia[2] was one of those affected. His house in Marikina[3], one of the cities most affected, has been submerged in water and mud. He and his family were able to evacuate to a neighbor who has a two-story house. We unfortunately have no word yet about Maning Sambale[4], the person who is most active in Philippine OpenStreetMap community. He and his family also live in Marikina. If you would like to help, you can donate to the Philippine National Red Cross via PayPal courtesy of the NGO TXTPower[5]. Or if you have the means, you can donate directly to the Philippine National Red Cross[6]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Ketsana_%282009%29 [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/ed_waypointsdotph [3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=14.6334lon=121.1002zoom=13layers=B000FTF [4] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/maning [5] http://www.txtpower.org/2009/09/philippines-help-typhoon-victims-in-luzon-philippines/ [6] http://www.redcross.org.ph/Site/PNRC/wtd.aspx Thanks and regards, Eugene Villar -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
Hi maning, The Ondoy situation maps on Google Maps My Maps ( http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8hl=enmsa=0msid=110868206150348750692.00047479b6400ee29bd89ll=14.645791,121.107874spn=0.107954,0.154324) is the most publicized webmap there is. It shows the locations of people needing immediate rescue and help. I don't think we should duplicate that effort since it would split resources. I guess what we can do is to map out rehabilitation efforts instead of people needing rescue. Also, some bloggers and other people I know are looking to use the Sahana FOSS Disaster Management System to coordinate efforts on various aspects of a disaster. I'm not sure how OSM can fit into the picture yet. ( http://sahana.kahelos.org/index.php?mod=homeact=default) Eugene On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:16 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: I just had access to the web a couple of hours ago and is looking around for webmaps and other geographic information. I just wrote an appeal to the osm main list on creating a webmap to support the releif, recovery and rescue however, there seems to be several webmaps available already. Is there anything else we can do? On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, In case people in the international community didn't know, the Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1]. My family was affected as well, but we are OK now. Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief. As a mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute. We need to document whatever information we can compile so that volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the needs. The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas. Some members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to document what is currently happening on the ground [2]. I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project. What we currently need are: 1. A temporary server space we can use. 2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons list. 3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface) i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs water. This street has no electricity. Too much garbage on this street please collect now. This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs. I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing to coordinate efforts in some areas and collect field data around my mapping area. Please help us do this project. The hope is the information we gather and synthesize would be helpful. We do not need anything sophisticated at the moment we just need something running ASAP. Thanks in advance. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29 [2] http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/42152 -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] need help on mapping for ondoy/Kestana flood victims in Metro Manila
Thanks, I'm looking at these maps right now. Are the reported cases/placemarks being closed if the missing person was found? The placemarks it looks overwhelming but some reports were filed 3 days ago, are these people still missing. What I have in mind is a simple portal for post disaster activities, especially for re-building public infrastructure and utilities (bug report: we need garbage collection here, people are getting sick already.) . These things tend to be forgotten when there is no media coverage anymore. Anyway, let us brainstorm more. And hopefully we can setup something within the day. @ Rally, I don't have the technical skills to setup this up as well. Thanks for offering your resources. Maybe we can think of something useful for your gears. On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Hi maning, The Ondoy situation maps on Google Maps My Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8hl=enmsa=0msid=110868206150348750692.00047479b6400ee29bd89ll=14.645791,121.107874spn=0.107954,0.154324) is the most publicized webmap there is. It shows the locations of people needing immediate rescue and help. I don't think we should duplicate that effort since it would split resources. I guess what we can do is to map out rehabilitation efforts instead of people needing rescue. Also, some bloggers and other people I know are looking to use the Sahana FOSS Disaster Management System to coordinate efforts on various aspects of a disaster. I'm not sure how OSM can fit into the picture yet. (http://sahana.kahelos.org/index.php?mod=homeact=default) Eugene On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:16 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: I just had access to the web a couple of hours ago and is looking around for webmaps and other geographic information. I just wrote an appeal to the osm main list on creating a webmap to support the releif, recovery and rescue however, there seems to be several webmaps available already. Is there anything else we can do? On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:44 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, In case people in the international community didn't know, the Philippines (capital and surrounding provinces) were badly hit by tropical cylcone ondoy/kestana the past week [1]. My family was affected as well, but we are OK now. Current efforts are now towards search, rescue and relief. As a mapping community I feel we need to do something and contribute. We need to document whatever information we can compile so that volunteers, relief workers, and government agencies can respond to the needs. The recovery efforts may take a few more weeks and we need to sustain activities to restore vital public utilities to affected areas. Some members of the OSM-PH has started creating webmap based on OSM to document what is currently happening on the ground [2]. I appeal to the whole OSM community to help us in this project. What we currently need are: 1. A temporary server space we can use. 2. Create mashups on related information about the disaster (osm data for Metro Manila and adjacent provinces is good enough as a map background), news feeds, location of evacuation sites, missing persons list. 3. An interface in which users can report what is happening on the ground, (I'm thinking of an openstreetbug interface) i.e. This street in unpassable due to floods. This street needs water. This street has no electricity. Too much garbage on this street please collect now. This way communities can report problems and hopefully close bugs. I lack the technical skills to do this but I am willing to coordinate efforts in some areas and collect field data around my mapping area. Please help us do this project. The hope is the information we gather and synthesize would be helpful. We do not need anything sophisticated at the moment we just need something running ASAP. Thanks in advance. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_Ketsana_%282009%29 [2] http://www.umapper.com/maps/view/id/42152 -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New license status
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:04 PM, James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: On 28/09/2009, at 11:16 PM, Gustav Foseid wrote: Well... There is no copyright that expires after 15 years. Sui generis database rights expire after 15 years, but copyright is hardly very relevant for an OpenStreetMap database dump. In Europe maybe - however there are countries where database do have inherent copyright separate from the copyright over their contents, for example in Australia. I think the copyright wouldn't expire for 70 years here, which is definitely more than the 15 for European sui generis database rights. I see the qualification that substantial is in terms of quality, quantity or a combination of both - but out of interest, is it supposed to mean basically what it means in terms of the underlying copyright/database rights? yes. but since there hasn't been any case law on what substantial means (at least in europe, yet), we were advised to create guidelines on what we, as a community, consider substantial. apparently this would likely be taken into account, in the absence of case law, if anything goes in front of a judge. cheers, matt ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New license status
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, James Livingston wrote: On 28/09/2009, at 11:16 PM, Gustav Foseid wrote: Well... There is no copyright that expires after 15 years. Sui generis database rights expire after 15 years, but copyright is hardly very relevant for an OpenStreetMap database dump. In Europe maybe - however there are countries where database do have inherent copyright separate from the copyright over their contents, for example in Australia. I think the copyright wouldn't expire for 70 years here, which is definitely more than the 15 for European sui generis database rights. I think we should try very hard to make conditions the same for all OSM users on the planet, as far as possible. If what you say is true then we should make sure (via the content license) that the content is not protected longer in Australia than anywhere else. interesting. we should make sure that ODC are aware of this for the next version of ODbL. (note that the contents license != database license, though. individual contents and substantial extracts of the database are licensed separately). Personally, as I am opposed to us trying to dictate to our users what they may and may not do with our data, I would appreciate to see OSM data go out of copyright as quickly as possible. (I once tried to talk our share-alike hardliners into accepting one year, on the grounds of one-year-old OSM data being practically useless... but they wouldn't have it.) hi, i'm matt and i'm a PD heretic ;-) cheers, matt ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL
Hi, How long time ODbL will protect the data? The EU database directive Directive 96/9/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 1996 on the legal protection of databases gives 15 years protection Article 10 Term of protection 1. The right provided for in Article 7 shall run from the date of completion of the making of the database. It shall expire fifteen years from the first of January of the year following the date of completion. 2. In the case of a database which is made available to the public in whatever manner before expiry of the period provided for in paragraph 1, the term of protection by that right shall expire fifteen years from the first of January of the year following the date when the database was first made available to the public. 3. Any substantial change, evaluated qualitatively or quantitatively, to the contents of a database, including any substantial change resulting from the accumulation of successive additions, deletions or alterations, which would result in the database being considered to be a substantial new investment, evaluated qualitatively or quantitatively, shall qualify the database resulting from that investment for its own term of protection. Is ODbL going to follow the same rule? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL
El Martes, 29 de Septiembre de 2009, Jukka Rahkonen escribió: How long time ODbL will protect the data? The EU database directive Directive 96/9/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 11 March 1996 on the legal protection of databases gives 15 years protection The thing to understand here is that copyleft licenses are an exercise of your rights. The CC licenses are built on top of your copyrights, and the GPL is built on top of your rights over software. So far so good. Thing is, all copyleft licenses won't interfere with existing rights. For example, in my jurisdiction, you can *quote* *any* copyrighted text in order to make a reference, or you can make a parody of *any* work. If you apply a CC-by-nd-nc to the work, it doesn't matter at all, because you can not assert any rights over people making quotes or parodies. The same goes with the ODbL. Once you make a planet dump and let 15 years pass, you can not assert any rights over the dump... so you can not assert the ODbL. Simple as that. Just remember: copyleft works because we have rights over stuff, but use those rights to let people use the works, not to prevent people from using them. (YMMV, IANAL, you know the drill) Cheers, -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es http://ivan.sanchezortega.es Proudly running Debian Linux with 2.6.30-1-amd64 kernel, KDE 3.5.10, and PHP 5.2.10-2.2 generating this signature. Uptime: 22:41:48 up 17 days, 12:13, 2 users, load average: 1.28, 1.04, 0.80 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
David Paleino wrote: David Paleino wrote: http://osm.org/go/xZaERTJSm-- Ah, I forgot also this one: http://osm.org/go/xZYvzIcHP-- NOT THE WAY TO DO IT! I zoomed out and noticed that the national border along the Mediterranean coast of Sicily and the rest of Italy and also France look really bad. Is there a reason why the border isn't off the coast like it is most places, e.g. Spain? -- Morten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
-Original Message- From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Dave F. Sent: 28 September 2009 20:47 Cc: OSM Talk Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags Ian Dees wrote: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/flickr_now_supports_openstreetmap_ tags.php Good to see someone else talking about OSM... Excellent news Indeed this is fantastic news. Having that extra metadata will be very useful, and it'll start to get OSM seen by a whole new audience that haven't yet heard about us. Now I've just got to start applying tags to my 3000 odd Flickr photos. This may take some time... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
Morten Kjeldgaard wrote: I zoomed out and noticed that the national border along the Mediterranean coast of Sicily and the rest of Italy and also France look really bad. I suppose because we imported the national borders from Italian ISTAT (a national statistics institute) -- see: source: Based on ISTAT data - 2001 Italian Census Maybe we should follow coastlines instead? Is there a reason why the border isn't off the coast like it is most places, e.g. Spain? Isn't that defined as territorial waters, different from national border? It would be better to have both drawn -- but the territorial waters marked as boundary=maritime, or the such? David -- . ''`. Debian maintainer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://snipr.com/qa_page `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
David Paleino wrote: http://osm.org/go/xZaERTJSm-- Please, don't. Have you contacted the user in question (in a friendly fashion) to explain how it could be done better? They probably don't read this list. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-*NOT*-to-map-tp25654568p25658124.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
David Paleino wrote: Sent: 29 September 2009 12:26 AM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: talk...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map David Paleino wrote: http://osm.org/go/xZaERTJSm-- Ah, I forgot also this one: http://osm.org/go/xZYvzIcHP-- NOT THE WAY TO DO IT! There isn't a lot of point shouting at the mailing list about this. Looking at the area I see quite a number of different editors, most of which appear to have done only a few edits or indeed are new (the first example you gave is from a mapper who only signed up to the project in the last few weeks). Since there are so many mappers, have you considered contacting them all for a social meet-up? Usually issues of editing, especially for new contributors, are easily fixed by offering a bit of assistance. If a meet-up isn't on, then at least drop these new folks an email and offer some help. Cheers Andy /me will need some time to fix the whole city :( -- . ''`. Debian maintainer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://snipr.com/qa_page `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Eugene Alvin Villar seav80 at gmail.com writes: [Flickr now refers to OSM ids] The big problem I see is that our node, way, and relation IDs are too brittle for this sort of thing. Agreed. Or at least, you cannot expect them to be around forever. But at least they aren't reused, so if an id still exists on the map it's pretty likely to stay representing the same real-world thing. I wish OSM has a redirect feature for deleted nodes, ways, and relations sort of like what Wikipedia has for its articles and pages. Maybe a redirect=* tag? A manual redirect tag would never work - about 1% of contributors would bother to add it, and even then messing with id numbers by hand is error-prone. Rather, if an object is marked as deleted, return its last position and perhaps the changeset id that deleted it. Then with only a small amount of manual effort somebody can track down the replacement object. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:13 AM, David Paleino d.pale...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't that defined as territorial waters, different from national border? It would be better to have both drawn -- but the territorial waters marked as boundary=maritime, or the such? Some info on tagging here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Maritime_borders More information about maritime borders in general here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea Todo: Clean up to proposal and support in the most common renderers. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com: A manual redirect tag would never work - about 1% of contributors would bother to add it, and even then messing with id numbers by hand is error-prone. Rather, if an object is marked as deleted, return its last position and perhaps the changeset id that deleted it. Then with only a small amount of manual effort somebody can track down the replacement object. Wouldn't flickr just download the info once and then cache it on their systems? That's what they do with OSM maps at least. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
2009/9/29 David Paleino d.pale...@gmail.com: Isn't that defined as territorial waters, different from national border? It would be better to have both drawn -- but the territorial waters marked as boundary=maritime, or the such? That what happens with Australia which doesn't have any land borders, admin_level=2,boundary=maritime for the individual ways and then there is a relation for the actual boundary=administrative, however the coastline isn't the border, 12nm out to sea is, and 200nm is the exclusive economic zone, between 12 and 200 is like international waters in that anyone can float past but Australia has exclusive rights to minerals and fishing etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
2009/9/29 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: Todo: Clean up to proposal and support in the most common renderers. Why do you want these to render exactly? I agree with land based borders but it looks weird/confusing seeing maritime boundaries. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:48 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/9/29 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: Todo: Clean up to proposal and support in the most common renderers. Why do you want these to render exactly? They are rendered today, but visually the same as land borders. I would prefer the territorial waters to be rendered as a blue line, as this seems to be the normal way to render maritime boundaries in most of the maps I have checked. The baseline might be of interest at high zoom levels for debugging, but the others I see no reason to render in general purpose maps. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
2009/9/29 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: They are rendered today, but visually the same as land borders. I would Ummm they are? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-24.622lon=153.677zoom=10 Centre of the map is where the maritime border of Australia runs and I don't see anything rendered at any zoom level. prefer the territorial waters to be rendered as a blue line, as this seems to be the normal way to render maritime boundaries in most of the maps I have checked. Most maps I've seen don't show territorial waters. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote: David Paleino wrote: http://osm.org/go/xZaERTJSm-- Ah, I forgot also this one: http://osm.org/go/xZYvzIcHP-- NOT THE WAY TO DO IT! There isn't a lot of point shouting at the mailing list about this. Needed to rant somewhere :) (and, most importantly, give an example of how a bad map looks like) Looking at the area I see quite a number of different editors, most of which appear to have done only a few edits or indeed are new (the first example you gave is from a mapper who only signed up to the project in the last few weeks). Since there are so many mappers, have you considered contacting them all for a social meet-up? Usually issues of editing, especially for new contributors, are easily fixed by offering a bit of assistance. I already contacted the 4-5 mappers who made the most edits, but no one ever replied. Also, I'm going to give a talk about OSM in Palermo soon I hope (October - November), and I already planned to contact them for this :) If a meet-up isn't on, then at least drop these new folks an email and offer some help. Surely will do ;) David -- . ''`. Debian maintainer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://snipr.com/qa_page `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:00 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/9/29 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: They are rendered today, but visually the same as land borders. I would Ummm they are? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-24.622lon=153.677zoom=10 Centre of the map is where the maritime border of Australia runs and I don't see anything rendered at any zoom level. They have normally been tagged as land borders, resulting in something like this: http://osm.org/go/evC2d-- http://osm.org/go/3Tjpd- I was unable to find the way describing the territorial waters of Australia. How is it tagged? prefer the territorial waters to be rendered as a blue line, as this seems to be the normal way to render maritime boundaries in most of the maps I have checked. Most maps I've seen don't show territorial waters. Agreed, but using the suggested tagging for maritime boundaries, you would then need support in the stylesheets to _not_ render them. A proposal that would need support to explicitly render the maritime boundaries was voted against. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?
... Are you sure about the spelling of ... fork off American ... - doesn't sound quite right but perhaps it's just my mid-Atlantic accent? Mike Harris -Original Message- From: John Smith [mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com] Sent: 29 September 2009 02:16 To: Russ Nelson Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org; Richard Fairhurst Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright? 2009/9/29 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com: Richard Fairhurst writes: Nick Whitelegg wrote: One council (West Sussex) referred to its data as public domain when I last looked. I'd guess that's the same for all councils. Bear in mind that public domain meaning free of copyright is a US term. The traditional UK meaning is quite different. Lawds, I wish the English could speak English. Who decided it would be a good idea to fork off American into a whole 'nother language? Actually American english is behind the times, it's an older form that never kept up with the rest of the world :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
2009/9/29 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: They have normally been tagged as land borders, resulting in something like this: http://osm.org/go/evC2d-- http://osm.org/go/3Tjpd- Because they've been tagged boundary=administrative, boundary_type=maritime, the around Australia it's just boundary=maritime which doesn't render. I was unable to find the way describing the territorial waters of Australia. How is it tagged? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/31617043 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/80500 Agreed, but using the suggested tagging for maritime boundaries, you would then need support in the stylesheets to _not_ render them. A proposal that would need support to explicitly render the maritime boundaries was voted against. boundary=maritime isn't rendered, only boundary=administrative is, so as long as they aren't boundary=administrative they won't render simple as that :) You mention debug purposes in your previous email, but you can see this anyway viewing the relation. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] National boundary vs. territorial waters (was: Re: How *NOT* to map)
2009/9/29 Gustav Foseid gust...@gmail.com: They have normally been tagged as land borders, resulting in something like this: http://osm.org/go/evC2d-- http://osm.org/go/3Tjpd- what do you mean by land border? They are national borders, (administrative, level 2). There is this (approved but quite recent) proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Maritime_borders which due to changes is contradicting the boundary page. Personally I think that adding a maritime=yes (as proposed on the linked page) to the boundary is a good way for indicating a maritime border, as it doesn't break the previous tagging. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Polish Potlatch doesn't work anymore.
Greetings. It apparently stopped working because Polish translation[1] contains double quotes which make their way to html unescaped which produces a JS string like this: Blah blah foo bar blah in which foo bar becomes JS *code*. The quotes in the message should be escaped *and* the code which sends the message to the page should escape special characters. [1]http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Osm:Site.edit.potlatch_unsaved_changes/plaction=editloadgroup=out-osmloadtask=view -- Best regards, steelman -- Wyszukiwarka tanich lotow! Sprawdz http://link.interia.pl/f233e ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Gregory Williams gregory.willi...@purplegeodesoftware.co.uk Ian Dees wrote: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/flickr_now_supports_openstreetmap_ tags.php Good to see someone else talking about OSM... Excellent news Indeed this is fantastic news. Having that extra metadata will be very useful, and it'll start to get OSM seen by a whole new audience that haven't yet heard about us. Now I've just got to start applying tags to my 3000 odd Flickr photos. This may take some time... Yay! I'm pleased to say that I had a small hand in helping this to happen (mainly by pestering Aaron with dorky ideas), as mentioned in the Flickr Code blog post [1]. You can see my set of Manchester buildings, some of which have now been machine-tagged here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/frankieroberto/sets/72157614972426670/ I'd love it if other people started adding the tags too, if only to prove that I'm not the only one who likes this idea (and who likes taking photos of random buildings). The 'stability' of way/node/relation IDs is something worth considering. Personally, I think that they're stable enough for use in this kind of loosely-joining things way (and indeed our wiki is full of references to specific IDs), but there are some implications, particularly for bulk data imports. I also think this Flickr-linking might be a good prompt for us to re-look at the /browse/* pages. If these pages are going to be more visible, perhaps we could look at improving the user-experience of them (eg by parsing out addresses from addr:* tags, or by linking to Wikipedia pages more prominently, or perhaps even by including photos from Flickr). I'm not sure what the state of the User Experience Working Group is, but I'd be happy to join and help with this, if people think it's a good idea. (Personally, I think the scope for OSM to be a provider of linked-data POIs is huge, but I'll admit it's a bit of a departure from making maps). Frankie [1] http://code.flickr.com/blog/2009/09/28/thats-maybe-a-bit-too-dorky-even-for-us/ -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.au.dk: I zoomed out and noticed that the national border along the Mediterranean coast of Sicily and the rest of Italy and also France look really bad. Is there a reason why the border isn't off the coast like it is most places, e.g. Spain? we're currently talking about this on talk-it (and have already done so in the past), the reason that it is still like this is not that we wouldn't like to change it, but that noone had time/will to do it till now (we imported all borders from national institute of statistics). Does anyone have a script to calculate the 12nm-offset and probably simplify the outcome? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Does anyone have a script to calculate the 12nm-offset and probably simplify the outcome? The Australia 12nm boundary was guessed by someone and roughly put in... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Polish Potlatch doesn't work anymore.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:58 AM, stl...@poczta.fm wrote: Greetings. It apparently stopped working because Polish translation[1] contains double quotes which make their way to html unescaped which produces a JS string like this: Blah blah foo bar blah in which foo bar becomes JS *code*. The quotes in the message should be escaped *and* the code which sends the message to the page should escape special characters. [1]http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Osm:Site.edit.potlatch_unsaved_changes/plaction=editloadgroup=out-osmloadtask=view I fixed this bug in the rails port: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/changeset/17842 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2009/9/29 Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.au.dk: I zoomed out and noticed that the national border along the Mediterranean coast of Sicily and the rest of Italy and also France look really bad. Is there a reason why the border isn't off the coast like it is most places, e.g. Spain? we're currently talking about this on talk-it (and have already done so in the past), the reason that it is still like this is not that we wouldn't like to change it, but that noone had time/will to do it till now (we imported all borders from national institute of statistics). Does anyone have a script to calculate the 12nm-offset and probably simplify the outcome? Looking at the Spain maritime border, there's a source=robot-generated-12nm- border, so it probably exists :) Anyone knows where to get it from? David -- . ''`. Debian maintainer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino : :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/ `. `'` GPG: 1392B174 | http://snipr.com/qa_page `- 2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 David Paleino d.pale...@gmail.com Looking at the Spain maritime border, there's a source=robot-generated-12nm- border, so it probably exists :) Anyone knows where to get it from? Performing an ST_Buffer might help in Postgis. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:11:21AM +0100, Frankie Roberto wrote: I'd love it if other people started adding the tags too, if only to prove that I'm not the only one who likes this idea (and who likes taking photos of random buildings). I've started tagging too. Not much yet, but that'll improve: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=osm%3A*%3Dw=73509078%40N00 I have one question though. Should the osm:* tag only reflect the subject of the photo? Or is it okay to use it to tag the location of the photo? The labelling ... is a building seems to suggest the former. Cheers -- Sybren A. Stüvel http://stuvel.eu/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com wrote: 2009/9/29 Gregory Williams gregory.willi...@purplegeodesoftware.co.uk I also think this Flickr-linking might be a good prompt for us to re-look at the /browse/* pages. If these pages are going to be more visible, perhaps we could look at improving the user-experience of them (eg by parsing out addresses from addr:* tags, or by linking to Wikipedia pages more prominently, or perhaps even by including photos from Flickr). I'm not sure what the state of the User Experience Working Group is, but I'd be happy to join and help with this, if people think it's a good idea. (Personally, I think the scope for OSM to be a provider of linked-data POIs is huge, but I'll admit it's a bit of a departure from making maps). A more direct way to do it *now* is to suggest specific improvements by filing bugs on http://trac.openstreetmap.org under the website component. I've fixed up a few things about the /browse/* pages like linking to a new feature so that you can see nodes/ways/relations on the main map. So now you can go to either: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/30089216 or: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=30089216 I've also added changeset comments (if they exist) to the page. Fixed some formatting bugs with the node/way/relation list and I have a pending patch (awaiting the new wiki machine) to link from tags to the wiki pages. That's just things *I* spotted. But if you have any further specific suggestions on what to fix, or a manually-edited HTML mock up on how things should look please submit those suggestions. One thing that might be useful to flickr is improving the main map screen so that when you look at this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=30089216 There's an optional Google Maps-like sidebar telling you what you're looking at with a link back to the /browse/* page. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-it] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 Federico Cozzi f.co...@gmail.com: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:27 AM, David Paleino d.pale...@gmail.com wrote: Looking at the Spain maritime border, there's a source=robot-generated-12nm- border, so it probably exists :) Just remember that the border should not be computed from the coastline, but from the baseline (which is further into the sea and much simpler) probably the outcome would be the same if we use the coastline and simplify it (hence also reducing unneccesary complexity). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
Am 28.09.2009 20:40, Pieren: Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The French Corine Import has started
Hi Emilie, Apologies for not replying in French - although I have an interest in what you're doing, I don't have the language skills to speak to you about it natively. I'm very pleased to see that the Corine data import is going forward and am looking forward to seeing the results when it's complete. At my place of employment we make some use of OSM (see [1] for example), including in France, and we are considering using it to a much greater degree in the future. We are having ongoing discussions, however, about OSM completeness surveys - in short there are people who want to use OSM but want to be able to be explicit about what areas are covered and which are not. Which seems fair enough... I was wondering if the Corine data import could give us such statistics for France. Is it possible to say, for examples, how many polygons exist that are tagged landuse:residential that don't overlap a way tagged highway:residential ? Is this the sort of thing other people see value in? Regards, Joseph [1] http://mapdata.thehumanjourney.net/office.html 2009/9/27 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: Hello, I am sending a quick message to mention that the French import of Corine has started. We created an user for the occasion: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/CLCF06 The polygons are already starting to appear all over France, since we are uploading polygons by polygons. The import will take about a week to complete. The final green light was given by the French community after reviewing some mapnik overlay and review of the logic used for the calculation of overlaps. The maximum size for a way is 2000 nodes. I hope you will enjoy looking at France and see polygons appearing as much as we do currently. This is the first phase of the import. We are importing only polygons with little overlaps with existing OSM geometries. The scripts will be published this week. The goal of this import was to minimize any impacts on the user who have been working hard in completing the map of France. The second phase will be the use of a web interface to allow individual users to import polygons that were not imported manually. The interface will be made public once the main import will be finished. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Anyone (*blinking at Frankie*) knows how long it will takes after adding the osm machine tag untile the View in OpenStreetMap (btw. I think that link should be written without spaces) link appears straight below the picture? And how long about the feature information being extracted from OSM? I've added way-tags to several photos of mine but currently all it says in the right-hand info pane is This is a feature in OpenStreetMap. E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/1tone/3074879156/ Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de: Am 28.09.2009 20:40, Pieren: Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius Not being a Farmer I'm not 100% sure but I think we need to split up how a feed is used. ie Ploughed Field, Changed Every Year. Grass for grazing animals Orchard, permanent or semi-permanent trees/bushes While some farmers may rotate there land, partally with Orchards this is not as likely as with grassland and ploughed Fields Just my 2pence worth. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com I'm not sure what the state of the User Experience Working Group is, but I'd be happy to join and help with this, if people think it's a good idea. (Personally, I think the scope for OSM to be a provider of linked-data POIs is huge, but I'll admit it's a bit of a departure from making maps). A more direct way to do it *now* is to suggest specific improvements by filing bugs on http://trac.openstreetmap.org under the website component. Okay, will do. I'm always a bit shy about submitting improvement ideas as bugs (as it feels like asking someone else to do the work, rather than offering to help), but I guess it helps to keep it all in one place. I've fixed up a few things about the /browse/* pages like linking to a new feature so that you can see nodes/ways/relations on the main map. I noticed that recently - super cool. I've also added changeset comments (if they exist) to the page. Fixed some formatting bugs with the node/way/relation list and I have a pending patch (awaiting the new wiki machine) to link from tags to the wiki pages. Linking the tags to the wiki is going to be a great way of joining the two things together much more closely. The other thing I'd like to see is being able to browse sideways from the 'browse' pages, so that it's possible to navigate from, say, a pub, through to other pubs nearby. But I guess this requires some more XAPI-like functionality to be added to the main server? But if you have any further specific suggestions on what to fix, or a manually-edited HTML mock up on how things should look please submit those suggestions. Thanks, will do so. Some ideas I had already are: * removing the forward/back links to the way numbered one above and one below (as these are essentially just random links) * displaying the address in a more address-like style, perhaps also marked up with the hCard microformat. * showing the date that the node/way/relation was first created (rather than just date of the last changeset). * making wikipedia=* and website=* links more prominent, possibly with icons. * removing the created_by=* tag and displaying that less prominently, perhaps with a link to the Potlatch/JOSM/etc pages on the wiki. * adding some stats like total length (for open ways) or area size (for closed ways). One thing that might be useful to flickr is improving the main map screen so that when you look at this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=30089216 There's an optional Google Maps-like sidebar telling you what you're looking at with a link back to the /browse/* page. Yeah, that'd be really good too. In fact, I think it could be made easier to navigate from the 'Data' overlay to the /browse/* pages - the details link really isn't obvious! Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag dead-ends and how to distinguish them from incomplete ways
On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: I'm repeatedly told don't tag for the renderers OK, let me even it out a bit and give you some guidance: Tagging for the renderer is OK Tagging for the renderer is OK Tagging for the renderer is OK Tagging for the renderer is OK Don't deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer Tagging for the renderer is OK Tagging for the renderer is OK Tagging for the renderer is OK Tagging for the renderer is OK Don't deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer Confused? Read the full explanation at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer Yet it appears in this case the renderers are telling the mappers what to do. So? Why would the wiki be more important than the truth? The wiki should be there to document actual facts, and which tags get rendered by which renderer is a fact that can be documented on the wiki. If contributors choose to then use that tags that a renderer uses, and those tags follow the standard OSM principles of verifiability, objectiveness etc then there is no problem. The previous post implies these tags will only work in Groundtruth renders. Maybe I'll add them to the cyclemap. At the moment it looks like the left hand is deliberately not telling the right what is going on. Never attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to volunteers not having 37 hours in a day to help OSM. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On 29 Sep 2009, at 11:21, Claudius wrote: Anyone (*blinking at Frankie*) knows how long it will takes after adding the osm machine tag untile the View in OpenStreetMap (btw. I think that link should be written without spaces) link appears straight below the picture? And how long about the feature information being extracted from OSM? I've added way-tags to several photos of mine but currently all it says in the right-hand info pane is This is a feature in OpenStreetMap. E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/1tone/3074879156/ You usually just need to refresh the page to get the view in osm link as it isn't dynamically added. Shaun smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de Anyone (*blinking at Frankie*) knows how long it will takes after adding the osm machine tag untile the View in OpenStreetMap (btw. I think that link should be written without spaces) link appears straight below the picture? And how long about the feature information being extracted from OSM? I've added way-tags to several photos of mine but currently all it says in the right-hand info pane is This is a feature in OpenStreetMap. E.g. http://www.flickr.com/photos/1tone/3074879156/ I think the way it works is that the request goes into Flickr's magic queuing system (which apparently is now so complex that there's a queue to add things to the queue). It probably gets given a fairly low priority too, so it may take longer depending on how much other stuff is in the queue. In my experience, it takes anything between a few seconds and a few hours. BTW, OpenStreetMap seems to be how the project is spelled across the site...?!? -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org: While some farmers may rotate their land, partially with Orchards this is not as likely as with grassland and ploughed Fields +1 I'd also like to see differentiation of conventional orchards and meadow orchards (de:Streuobstwiese). See Wikipedia:en for details in English. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-it] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 Federico Cozzi f.co...@gmail.com: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Just remember that the border should not be computed from the coastline, but from the baseline (which is further into the sea and much simpler) probably the outcome would be the same if we use the coastline and simplify it (hence also reducing unneccesary complexity). Unfortunately not: the baseline is much further into the sea and includes a few islands. Look here (scroll down): http://www.marina.difesa.it/editoria/rivista/gloss/l.asp Thanks for giving this note. Can't we just import/redraw this map, as it is part of a law? Or isn't it? On the page it looks like it was (I presume that laws in Italy are under public domain?). I also remember that someone was already talking even in personal with this Italian marine defense institution and they were willing to donate data if I recall right? Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/29 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org: I'd also like to see differentiation of conventional orchards and meadow orchards (de:Streuobstwiese). See Wikipedia:en for details in English. Please add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de wrote: I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius Please add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: I wish OSM has a redirect feature for deleted nodes, ways, and relations sort of like what Wikipedia has for its articles and pages. Maybe a redirect=* tag? :-) You mean something like this?: http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2194 -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
... Not a farmer but a country boy ... my ha'porth ... Orchards (including olive groves etc.) seem sufficiently distinct (and permanent - not rotated) to justify a tag of their own. Same might apply e.g. to vineyards. Some plantations e.g. bananas, oil palm also seem semi-permanent given the life-span of the crop plants. Arable land (which is normally under rotation between plough, various crops, hay, rice, flax, resting non-permanent grassland) is fairly distinct - but the individual crops would probably be too ephemeral. Pastoral land - semi-permanent grassland for cattle and similar livestock - is also fairly distinct and characteristic e.g. of much of the dairy farming countryside around here. Permanent non-cultivated grassland - e.g. natural meadows, uncropped marshland meadows, alpine meadows might be another category. Would it be fairly simple then to go along the lines of: Landuse=agricultural vs. Landuse=grassland And for the former: Agriculture=arable / pastoral / orchard / plantation Maybe a fairly limited number of tags would cope - or am I being too limited geographically to be useful? Mike Harris -Original Message- From: Peter Childs [mailto:pchi...@bcs.org] Sent: 29 September 2009 11:24 Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard 2009/9/29 Claudius claudiu...@gmx.de: Am 28.09.2009 20:40, Pieren: Hi all, This is not my proposal but this tag is used by the Corine Land Cover current import in France corresponding to the class 2.2.2 of this european program (Agricultural areas - Permanent crops - Fruit trees and berry plantations). I would like to push this for improvements and a proper adoption. Please check the proposal and add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/orchard Pieren I'd rather like to see this merged into some more generic landuse=agricultural tagging-scheme. Which would cover general farmland (currently tagged as landuse=farmland) as well. Any farmer within the OSM crowd that could lend her/his expertise? Claudius Not being a Farmer I'm not 100% sure but I think we need to split up how a feed is used. ie Ploughed Field, Changed Every Year. Grass for grazing animals Orchard, permanent or semi-permanent trees/bushes While some farmers may rotate there land, partally with Orchards this is not as likely as with grassland and ploughed Fields Just my 2pence worth. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On 29/09/09 11:24, Frankie Roberto wrote: A more direct way to do it *now* is to suggest specific improvements by filing bugs on http://trac.openstreetmap.org under the website component. Okay, will do. I'm always a bit shy about submitting improvement ideas as bugs (as it feels like asking someone else to do the work, rather than offering to help), but I guess it helps to keep it all in one place. Thank you for your reticence! As the person that receives them all the tickets in question I have much the same feeling, that is just asking for somebody else to do something. Linking the tags to the wiki is going to be a great way of joining the two things together much more closely. The other thing I'd like to see is being able to browse sideways from the 'browse' pages, so that it's possible to navigate from, say, a pub, through to other pubs nearby. But I guess this requires some more XAPI-like functionality to be added to the main server? The wiki's full of shit though, so do we really want to encourage people to believe all the stuff that is there... * removing the forward/back links to the way numbered one above and one below (as these are essentially just random links) Not an unreasonable point. * displaying the address in a more address-like style, perhaps also marked up with the hCard microformat. I'm not at all sure that we should start getting clever about how we display specific tags - to my mind we are about the data and we should be tag agnostic and just display the raw data and let the reader draw conclusions from it. Doing clever stuff with our data is primarily something for other people to do, not for us to do. * showing the date that the node/way/relation was first created (rather than just date of the last changeset). Certainly possible but I'm not sure how much value it has. * making wikipedia=* and website=* links more prominent, possibly with icons. I think this comes under clever rendering again. * removing the created_by=* tag and displaying that less prominently, perhaps with a link to the Potlatch/JOSM/etc pages on the wiki. This is more borderline and I can see some point to it. * adding some stats like total length (for open ways) or area size (for closed ways). Relatively expensive for us to compute though so we would need to be a bit careful with larger/more complicated objects. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Mike Harris mik...@googlemail.com: Landuse=agricultural vs. Landuse=grassland And for the former: Agriculture=arable / pastoral / orchard / plantation This seems saner, that way if you aren't sure of the land use due to time of year the aerial imagery was take or what not you can just tag it as agricultural until you find out more definitively. Also most broad acre farming here (crops) tend to be rotated every 6 months or so, but they tend to be the same things year in year out, so maybe this could be extended slightly to be: landuse=agriculture agriculture=crop wheat=winter soybeans=summer or something like that... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu Linking the tags to the wiki is going to be a great way of joining the two things together much more closely. The other thing I'd like to see is being able to browse sideways from the 'browse' pages, so that it's possible to navigate from, say, a pub, through to other pubs nearby. But I guess this requires some more XAPI-like functionality to be added to the main server? The wiki's full of shit though, so do we really want to encourage people to believe all the stuff that is there... Heh, well I guess you could argue that this might help encourage people to make the wiki less shit. I also think that when clicking on an amenity=pub link, I'd expect to see a list (or, say, a map) of nearby pubs, rather than a description of what a pub is. But having both links, suitably labelled/designed, can't really hurt. * displaying the address in a more address-like style, perhaps also marked up with the hCard microformat. I'm not at all sure that we should start getting clever about how we display specific tags - to my mind we are about the data and we should be tag agnostic and just display the raw data and let the reader draw conclusions from it. Doing clever stuff with our data is primarily something for other people to do, not for us to do. Ha, well there's a contentious statement! If that were the case, then why do we even bother with the Mapnik/Osmarender tiles? Surely they're the ultimate form of doing clever stuff with the data. My personal view is that it's the XML view which is tag-agnostic, and that the map and browse views are where we should be displaying the data in the most useful, usable form possible. I think our browse pages could be as good, if not better, than Google's place pages [1]. Whilst I can understand the view that OSM should only be about gathering and maintaining the data, and that we should leave building user-friendly 'services' on top of it to other companies and organisations, I think that we need some form of usable services (like the map, and the browse pages) in order to show off the data and to attract people to the community. To use Wikipedia as an example, they seem to focus equally on providing a well-designed, stable, fast encyclopaedia website as on providing a good editing experience and community (despite the huge financial burden of running all the extra servers). Guess this is a tricky one to balance though. * showing the date that the node/way/relation was first created (rather than just date of the last changeset). Certainly possible but I'm not sure how much value it has. Mainly I was thinking that it helps to give some idea of how 'stable' the way is (how long it's been around). But I'll agree that it's not the most important value in the world. * making wikipedia=* and website=* links more prominent, possibly with icons. I think this comes under clever rendering again. The cleverer the better, in my books... :-) * adding some stats like total length (for open ways) or area size (for closed ways). Relatively expensive for us to compute though so we would need to be a bit careful with larger/more complicated objects. Guess we could limit it to ways with less than X number of nodes. Or figure out a neat way of caching it. Frankie [1] http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/09/place-pages-for-google-maps-there-are.html -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
Hi, This is related to a question in the Flickr thread about whether OSM should provide services as well as data, and is something I've been meaning to ask for a while: Are there any terms of use for either the XML API or the Mapnik/Osmarender map tiles? eg if someone wants to embed the our Mapnik tiles on their website (eg using OpenLayers), can they do so? Does it depend on commercial/non-commercial? Bandwidth required? The 'export' tab on the map gives you some iframe html which allows you to embeds the mapnik tiles (via the embed.html page), so I'm presuming that this kind of usage is encouraged, but nowhere (that I've found) does it explicitly state how you can use this. Presumably, if someone like Google or Wikipedia started embedding our map tiles, our servers would get enough of a hammering that we'd ask them to stop (hence Wikipedia wanting to host their own tiles)? Personally, I think that providing a reliable tile server (containing a well designed map for good all-round use) that anyone can use, so long as they give appropriate attribution, is something OSM should support and promote - even if other commercial and non-commercial services (Cloudmade, etc) are available. It's also something we already seem to do a good job at. However I don't know whether this crosses some major ideological division within the community?? Either way, could we at least try to make some form of 'terms of use' for the API and map tiles available? Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-it] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 Federico Cozzi f.co...@gmail.com: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for giving this note. Can't we just import/redraw this map, as it is part of a law? Or isn't it? On the page it looks like it was (I presume that laws in Italy are under public domain?). We can't trace the map, but we can redraw it using the law: http://www.italgiure.giustizia.it/nir/1977/lexs_72350.html (laws are explicitly not covered by copyright) It looks quite long and boring, considering that the law was written in 1977 and coordinates surely are not WGS84 :-) might be a little bit boring, but at least it is quite few points, not thousands, and we'll have the legal definition in the db if we add the names of the nodes (lighttowers, etc.) e.g. adriatic sea: MARE ADRIATICO: DA PUNTA SOTTILE (45 GRADI 36 PRIMI E TRENTA - 13 GRADI 43 PRIMI E 15) A FARO DI PUNTA SDOBBA (45 GRADI 43 PRIMI E 30 - 13 GRADI 34 PRIMI E 35) A FARO BANCO MULA DI MUGGIA (45 GRADI 39 PRIMI E 35 - 13 GRADI 26 PRIMI E 30) A PUNTA TAGLIAMENTO (45 GRADI 38 PRIMI E 00 - 13 GRADI 05 PRIMI E 90); DA FARO DI PUNTA PIAVE VECCHIA (45 GRADI 28 PRIMI E 65 - 12 GRADI 35 PRIMI E 05) A PUNTA DELLA MAESTRA (44 GRADI 57 PRIMI E 50 - 12 GRADI 32 PRIMI E 50); RIVA SINISTRA RAMO SUD PO DI GNOCCA (44 GRADI 47 PRIMI E 55) - 12 GRADI 24 PRIMI E 60) A FOCE FIUME RENO - RIVA DESTRA (44 GRADI 37 PRIMI E 45 - 12 GRADI 16 PRIMI E 80); DA PUNTA PENNA - TESTATA MOLO (42 GRADI 10 PRIMI E 60 - 14 GRADI 42 PRIMI E 80) A FANALE PIÙ ORIENTALE MOLO TERMOLI (42 GRADI 00 PRIMI E 30 - 15 GRADI 00 PRIMI E 35) A PUNTO N.N.W. ISOLA CAPRARA (42 GRADI 08 PRIMI E 35 - 15 GRADI 30 PRIMI E 80); DA PUNTO PIÙ ORIENTALE ISOLA CAPRARA (42 GRADI 08 PRIMI E 25 - 15 GRADI 31 PRIMI E 40) A PUNTO PIÙ ORIENTALE ISOLA S.NICOLA (42 GRADI 07 PRIMI E 60 - 15 GRADI 31 PRIMI E 10) A TORRE M.PUCCI (41 GRADI 56 PRIMI E 65 - 15 GRADI 59 PRIMI E 45); DA PROMONTORIO AD EST DI T.MOLINELLO (41 GRADI 54 PRIMI E 40 - 16 GRADI 09 PRIMI E 20) A SCOGLIO S.EUFEMIA (41 GRADI 53 PRIMI E 25 - 16 GRADI 11 PRIMI E 20) A ISOLA CAMPI (41 GRADI 48 PRIMI E 85 - 16 GRADI 12 PRIMI E 10) A TORRE PROPOSTI (41 GRADI 46 PRIMI E 90 - 16 GRADI 11 PRIMI E 65) A FANALE ROSSO ENTRATA PORTO BARLETTA (41 GRADI 19 PRIMI E 95 - 16 GRADI 17 PRIMI E 70); DA TORRE GUACETO (40 GRADI 42 PRIMI E 95 - 17 GRADI 48 PRIMI E 05) A PUNTA PENNE (40 GRADI 41 PRIMI E 10 - 17 GRADI 56 PRIMI E 20) A ISOLA PEDAGNA GRANDE (40 GRADI 39 PRIMI E 25 - 18 GRADI 00 PRIMI E 20) A CAPO TORRE CAVALLO (40 GRADI 38 PRIMI E 45 - 18 GRADI 01 PRIMI E 40) A PUNTO EX COLONIA S.TERESA (40 GRADI 27 PRIMI E 80 - 18 GRADI 12 PRIMI E 80); DA I POSTI - SCOGLIO PIÙ A NORD (40 GRADI 17 PRIMI E 30 - 18 GRADI 25 PRIMI E 75) A SCOGLIO DUE SORELLE (IL PIÙ SETTENTRIONALE (40 GRADI 16 PRIMI E 40 - 18 GRADI 26 PRIMI E 50) A PUNTA FACI (40 GRADI 08 PRIMI E 05 - 18 GRADI 31 PRIMI E 05) A CAPO D'OTRANTO (40 GRADI 06 PRIMI E 40 - 18 GRADI 31 PRIMI E 20) A PUNTO (39 GRADI 49 PRIMI E 00 - 18 GRADI 23 PRIMI E 45). do you know which kind of grid the coordinates are in? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
On 29/09/09 12:32, Frankie Roberto wrote: This is related to a question in the Flickr thread about whether OSM should provide services as well as data, and is something I've been meaning to ask for a while: Are there any terms of use for either the XML API or the Mapnik/Osmarender map tiles? Mostly don't take the piss and if I have to come looking for the person that has caused the site to grind to a halt then they're going to get themselves banned. eg if someone wants to embed the our Mapnik tiles on their website (eg using OpenLayers), can they do so? Does it depend on commercial/non-commercial? Bandwidth required? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?
Lawds, I wish the English could speak English. Who decided it would be a good idea to fork off American into a whole 'nother language? Well if it's any consolation I seem to have learnt the American meaning of public domain before any English meaning ;-) Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-it] How *NOT* to map
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: do you know which kind of grid the coordinates are in? My guess would be ED50. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Claudius Henrichs claudiu...@gmx.de No, I rather meant landuse=agricultural + agricultural=orchard/field/crop/salt and thus keeping the information but in the same time grouping agricultural landuses under one tag. That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. Emilie Laffray ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Frankie Roberto wrote: Ha, well there's a contentious statement! If that were the case, then why do we even bother with the Mapnik/Osmarender tiles? Surely they're the ultimate form of doing clever stuff with the data. Primarily so mappers can see what they've been doing, as a form of validation (and gratification). They're also a reasonable demonstration of what's possible using OSM data and various tools. The Cycle map is included to show that you can do more than normal street maps, but that's hosted elsewhere. My personal view is that it's the XML view which is tag-agnostic, and that the map and browse views are where we should be displaying the data in the most useful, usable form possible. I think our browse pages could be as good, if not better, than Google's place pages [1]. If you mean including extra, non-geographic info, I'd disagree. The point of the project is to collect geodata and allow people to use it in interesting ways, and that could include Google. I'd rather Google kept its place pages and based them on OSM data than we tried to compete. Whilst I can understand the view that OSM should only be about gathering and maintaining the data, and that we should leave building user-friendly 'services' on top of it to other companies and organisations, I think that we need some form of usable services (like the map, and the browse pages) in order to show off the data and to attract people to the community. To use Wikipedia as an example, they seem to focus equally on providing a well-designed, stable, fast encyclopaedia website as on providing a good editing experience and community (despite the huge financial burden of running all the extra servers). Instead of thinking of OSM like Wikipedia, think of it like the Linux kernel: We have lots of contributors to a very large whole, with a central site where all contributions are collated. That site may be where the product is created, but it shouldn't be where it's used. In the same way you wouldn't expect to have to log into kernel.org to use Linux, you shouldn't expect openstreetmap.org to provide every possible application of the data. Instead, we provide enough to make collection and maintenance of the data easy (and fun), and enough documentation to show people how to render their own maps/install a routing app on their handheld/extract POIs from the data for (reverse) geocoding. OpenStreetMap is Free in the sense of Stallman. You can do what the hell you like with it. You're limited only by your own ability, not by a licence agreement. If you don't have the skill to do it yourself, you can pay someone else to do it, but you still get the OSM goodness. What OSM (or more precisely the OSMF) isn't in the business of is providing free beer to all and sundry, which is what would happen if we tried to provide a reliable tile service to anyone who wanted it. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com: That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. Why is this a problem for tagging exactly? If mapnik wants to pre-process it differently that's fine, but it should have no bearing on the tagging used. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 29/09/09 11:24, Frankie Roberto wrote: A more direct way to do it *now* is to suggest specific improvements by filing bugs on http://trac.openstreetmap.org under the website component. Okay, will do. I'm always a bit shy about submitting improvement ideas as bugs (as it feels like asking someone else to do the work, rather than offering to help), but I guess it helps to keep it all in one place. Thank you for your reticence! As the person that receives them all the tickets in question I have much the same feeling, that is just asking for somebody else to do something. Generally bug trackers reduce work. They consolidate bugs/feature requests in one place, people can easily search for already filed bugs or see that they're filed already and not bother you again. When I've become interested in helping with some application the bug trackers is usually a very good place to start for getting an idea of what needs to be done or what features are wanted. And when I'm maintaining something I very much like getting lots of enhancements requests. I can prioritize them and turn them into a TODO list. Different projects also have different preferences. I've filed over 100 bugs and enhancement requests to JOSM for instance. Most of who've been fixed already, and they don't seem to mind. But since Trac is set up so that bugs against website are filed as bugs against you personally then perhaps it would be easier for everyone if it were made obvious what sort of things you want filed against the website component in trac. For example at the top of http://trac.openstreetmap.org/newticket Linking the tags to the wiki is going to be a great way of joining the two things together much more closely. The other thing I'd like to see is being able to browse sideways from the 'browse' pages, so that it's possible to navigate from, say, a pub, through to other pubs nearby. But I guess this requires some more XAPI-like functionality to be added to the main server? The wiki's full of shit though, so do we really want to encourage people to believe all the stuff that is there... It sucks, but it's the best description of the tagging system we use. It's not very easy to find if you're a new mapper. I just pretended to be one and I went from: http://openstreetmap.org - Help Wiki - [[Main_Page]] - [[Map Making]] - [[Editing]] - [[Tagging]] - [[Map Features]] Picking what sounded most likely to tell me how to tag data and presuming that I didn't know what the Map Features link in the sidebar meant. Making the wiki more accessible to casual mappers via Potlatch/JOSM will hopefully serve to improve it. And it's honestly not that bad. Most objections to it seem to be that it has some silly voting system or gives an inaccurate idea of the sort of tags we actually do have. That's true, but if you just want to get on with editing and are interested in what goes with amenity=parking which is the use case for most people that use it it works just fine. * removing the forward/back links to the way numbered one above and one below (as these are essentially just random links) Not an unreasonable point. * displaying the address in a more address-like style, perhaps also marked up with the hCard microformat. I'm not at all sure that we should start getting clever about how we display specific tags - to my mind we are about the data and we should be tag agnostic and just display the raw data and let the reader draw conclusions from it. Doing clever stuff with our data is primarily something for other people to do, not for us to do. * showing the date that the node/way/relation was first created (rather than just date of the last changeset). Certainly possible but I'm not sure how much value it has. * making wikipedia=* and website=* links more prominent, possibly with icons. I think this comes under clever rendering again. This sort of thing also helps mappers. If we render the address in a manner which people are used to then they're probably more likely to spot if it's wrong or incomplete and fix the data. Aside from i18n reasons that's why I modified the site to use the name:$lang tags when they're available. But aside from these specific points it's pretty clear that displaying a dump of the raw data we have and providing a pretty page to show incoming users from flickr and other sites are somewhat conflicting goals. Is anyone doing a more friendly rendering of OSM node/ways/relations now that sites like flickr could link to instead? If not that would be a very interesting project for the Wikimedia OSM Toolserver if someone is interested. * removing the created_by=* tag and displaying that less prominently, perhaps with a link to the Potlatch/JOSM/etc pages on the wiki. This is more borderline and I can see some point to it. Could you provide me with the output of: select count(*),v from
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2009/9/29 Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.au.dk: I zoomed out and noticed that the national border along the Mediterranean coast of Sicily and the rest of Italy and also France look really bad. Is there a reason why the border isn't off the coast like it is most places, e.g. Spain? we're currently talking about this on talk-it (and have already done so in the past), the reason that it is still like this is not that we wouldn't like to change it, but that noone had time/will to do it till now (we imported all borders from national institute of statistics). Does anyone have a script to calculate the 12nm-offset and probably simplify the outcome? I don't but it should be relatively easy to compute using the following algorith: - At each node on the coastline, produce a circle of 12 nmi. - Remove all circle points that are inside some other circle. - simplify Since the coastline ends somewhere, there may be some edge effects that need fixing afterwards. -- Morten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Breach of Copyright?
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Lawds, I wish the English could speak English. Who decided it would be a good idea to fork off American into a whole 'nother language? That would be Noah Webster. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
On 29/09/09 13:26, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: Generally bug trackers reduce work. They consolidate bugs/feature requests in one place, people can easily search for already filed bugs or see that they're filed already and not bother you again. I absolutely agree as far as bugs are concerned, and features where there is a patch or some other concrete implementation plan. Where I am less convinced is with pie-in-the-sky requests for features and enhancements - it is all to easy for those to arrive at a rate much greater than they are dealt with and the bug database to descend into a vast mire of enhancement requests which have virtually zero chance of ever being acted on. When I've become interested in helping with some application the bug trackers is usually a very good place to start for getting an idea of what needs to be done or what features are wanted. And when I'm maintaining something I very much like getting lots of enhancements requests. I can prioritize them and turn them into a TODO list. I see that as potentially quite a dangerous approach unless somebody is rigorously triaging the feature requests as they come in and closing out the bad ideas - just because somebody has asked for something doesn't mean it should be done and if a newbie just turns up and starts implementing features that somebody somewhere once requested there is every chance that they will get dispirited when their enhancements are then turned down. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] New license status
On 28/09/2009, at 11:16 PM, Gustav Foseid wrote: Well... There is no copyright that expires after 15 years. Sui generis database rights expire after 15 years, but copyright is hardly very relevant for an OpenStreetMap database dump. In Europe maybe - however there are countries where database do have inherent copyright separate from the copyright over their contents, for example in Australia. I think the copyright wouldn't expire for 70 years here, which is definitely more than the 15 for European sui generis database rights. I see the qualification that substantial is in terms of quality, quantity or a combination of both - but out of interest, is it supposed to mean basically what it means in terms of the underlying copyright/database rights? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
2009/9/29 Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.au.dk: I don't but it should be relatively easy to compute using the following algorith: - At each node on the coastline, produce a circle of 12 nmi. OK, we'll use the baseline instead of the coastline, but besides this (and because the baseline differs just in some explicitly legally defined points from the coastline): we would end up with lots of arc-segments = whole lot of nodes in the OSM-World, who doesn't know curves and arcs. But those would not be more precise than straight lines for the simple fact that it is completely random, where exactly someone set the nodes for a coastline. I'd prefer to simply offset and probably simplify it instead of creating all those circles. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 29/09/09 12:32, Frankie Roberto wrote: This is related to a question in the Flickr thread about whether OSM should provide services as well as data, and is something I've been meaning to ask for a while: Are there any terms of use for either the XML API or the Mapnik/Osmarender map tiles? Mostly don't take the piss and if I have to come looking for the person that has caused the site to grind to a halt then they're going to get themselves banned. eg if someone wants to embed the our Mapnik tiles on their website (eg using OpenLayers), can they do so? Does it depend on commercial/non-commercial? Bandwidth required? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy For interest's sake, I've also got a usage policy at http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/shine/third-party-use-of-tiles/ - I expect that it's quite similar in positioning to OSMFs, since we're dealing with similar issues. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
On Tue, 2009-09-29 at 01:21 +0200, David Paleino wrote: http://osm.org/go/xZaERTJSm-- Please, don't. A paragraph or two describing the problem (and the correct way to tag) could help any newbies searching the archives. I've seen this sort of thing when someone (apparently) promotes or demotes a highway. I'll find little pieces of highway=primary were the longer ways are tagged highway=secondary. It looks very much like the demotion was done with the editor zoomed out instead of the tedious process of following the way up close. Just my 0.02 monetary units. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
2009/9/29 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/9/29 Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org: I'd also like to see differentiation of conventional orchards and meadow orchards (de:Streuobstwiese). See Wikipedia:en for details in English. Please add your comments here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard I already inserted there on discussion-page. Feel free to copy stuff you like from discussion to proposal ;-) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
Hi, Frankie Roberto wrote: Are there any terms of use for either the XML API or the Mapnik/Osmarender map tiles? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy Nothing official, just a draft. eg if someone wants to embed the our Mapnik tiles on their website (eg using OpenLayers), can they do so? Does it depend on commercial/non-commercial? Bandwidth required? Some time last year the OSMF decided that they wanted to scale down and ultimately disallow extra-project accesses to the tile server but they changed their minds. You'll find the topic mentioned in various OSMF board meeting minutes. Personally, I think that providing a reliable tile server (containing a well designed map for good all-round use) that anyone can use, so long as they give appropriate attribution, is something OSM should support and promote - even if other commercial and non-commercial services (Cloudmade, etc) are available. Personally I find it excellent that someone who wants reliable heavy duty access (e.g. Wikipedia) sets up their own server to their liking. Why should we try and take their traffic, and anyone else's - what's in it for us? However I don't know whether this crosses some major ideological division within the community?? Problem is that you create expectations that are difficult to fulfil by hobbyists with the haphazard setup that we have. If you want a reliable tile server, you need a proper computing centre with fallback hardware and all that, and admins paid for being woken up at 3am if something goes wrong. This costs a lot of money which we would have to acquire and *not* spend for other things like supporting mapping in developing countries. - So, again: Why not let those who want to use the tiles and who require reliability pay for them? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Ian Dees wrote: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/flickr_now_supports_openstreetmap_tags.php Good to see someone else talking about OSM... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Well, Flickr says This is a feature in OpenStreetMap instead of $name is a building in OpenStreetMap. Did I miss a vital clue where yes and true are not interchangable? I thought yes was just a synonym for true, but I could be wrong. Is there a guidance page on this difference? Cheers Kyle ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - landuse=orchard
Emilie Laffray wrote: That would mean that Mapnik needs to be checking a secondary field to determine what to display. If the renderer doesn't do that, you will end up with a map that is poorer in the end. In your case, that would mean That's not really so different as highway + access, or highway=service+service=*. And while it is nice to keep render complexity in mind when you design a tagging scheme, don't let it make a case against the more logical tagging. increasing the size of the table produced by osm2pgsql by one extra column. Overall, you are increasing complexity with little or no benefits. Which means 1 bit per row, for the most part. I am not sure it makes sense in the end since were are getting exactly the same of information if you are using the tag directly in landuse. Extensibility. Plain and simple. If you come up with a new category for agricultural=*, and while you wait for the renderers to pick that up, you're still getting a plain landuse=agricultural rendered. Not a white spot on the map. Data users that don't need the complexity of different agricultural uses only need to process the main landuse=agricultural tag, and not try to group various agricultural landuse types into 1. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
Problem is that you create expectations that are difficult to fulfil by hobbyists with the haphazard setup that we have. If you want a reliable tile server, you need a proper computing centre with fallback hardware and all that, and admins paid for being woken up at 3am if something goes wrong. This costs a lot of money which we would have to acquire and *not* spend for other things like supporting mapping in developing countries. - So, again: Why not let those who want to use the tiles and who require reliability pay for them? It seems rather contra to the spirit of free software and open source it has to be said. But, the root cause is something unfortunately out of OSM's control - the cost of server space, server power, and bandwidth needs to come down, it's a significant hurdle to not-for-profit hobbyists wishing to develop powerful websites. Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:48:34 +0100, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote: Problem is that you create expectations that are difficult to fulfil by hobbyists with the haphazard setup that we have. If you want a reliable tile server, you need a proper computing centre with fallback hardware and all that, and admins paid for being woken up at 3am if something goes wrong. This costs a lot of money which we would have to acquire and *not* spend for other things like supporting mapping in developing countries. - So, again: Why not let those who want to use the tiles and who require reliability pay for them? It seems rather contra to the spirit of free software and open source it has to be said. As GNU puts it quite rightly: 'you should think of free as in free speech, not as in free beer'. OSM does not hand out free beers (unlimited access to rendered tiles) but gives free speech (you can use and modify the data freely). But I agree it should be made clear that while OSM does give out some free beers, it is limited and when the tap is broken, there is no guarantee it will be on when the pub opens again. But, the root cause is something unfortunately out of OSM's control - the cost of server space, server power, and bandwidth needs to come down, it's a significant hurdle to not-for-profit hobbyists wishing to develop powerful websites. There is no such thing as free beer. If they want to depend on it, they should support the item they rely on i.e.: offer server space or give monetary support). Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Kyle Gordon k...@lodge.glasgownet.com: It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Well, Flickr says This is a feature in OpenStreetMap instead of $name is a building in OpenStreetMap. Did I miss a vital clue where yes and true are not interchangable? I thought yes was just a synonym for true, but I could be wrong. Is there a guidance page on this difference? for building all values are correct, as building=* (or user defined) is defined. (this doesn't mean that for other keys it would not be correct to use user defined-values of course). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
Nick Whitelegg wrote: It seems rather contra to the spirit of free software and open source it has to be said. Not at all. You're free to do whatever you want with the data, and most of the software used to create, store, process and display it. What you can't do is expect someone else to provide you with free hosting for your project, which is what ends up happening if we don't set a realistic usage policy. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
The other hurdle is learning how to render. If this one was a bit easier, more people would do their own. That will come - but it's slow going (especially for non-geeks). Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
2009/9/29 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Well, Flickr says This is a feature in OpenStreetMap instead of $name is a building in OpenStreetMap. Did I miss a vital clue where yes and true are not interchangable? I thought yes was just a synonym for true, but I could be wrong. Is there a guidance page on this difference? for building all values are correct, as building=* (or user defined) is defined. (this doesn't mean that for other keys it would not be correct to use user defined-values of course). Indeed. As to yes/no vs true/false vs 1/0 though, I think there was a discussion about this ages ago, and the conclusion seemed to be (from memory) that yes/no was the preferred/most common approach. (Guess renderers should probably accept all three forms though). -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Statistics on changesets by created_by=*
TomH provided me with statistics on created_by=* in all changeset tags[1][2][3]. Here are with more than 1000 total changesets ordered by the number of changesets: 813222 = JOSM, 730972 = Potlatch, 96066 = Merkaartor, 40213 = bulk_upload.py, 34625 = upload.py, 17443 = KMLManager, 7995 = FreieTonne, 4620 = osmtools, 3779 = OTHERS, 1271 = mat's little ruby script, 898= osm2go, So JOSM is über alles it would appear. Here's JOSM ordered by the language people were using when editing: 357350 = de, 165641 = en, 57463 = fr, 40643 = en_GB, 30081 = ru, 23435 = it, 11881 = fi, 11470 = es, 8578 = cs, 6582 = nl, 6029 = sv, 5619 = pl, 5357 = ja, 2939 = da, 2062 = sk, 911= nb, 892= bg, 514= tr, 502= et, 499= is, 305= sl, 284= pt, 255= ro, 133= he, 102= gl, 72 = el, 36 = zh, German is far in the lead even if one considers British English to be part of the English language proper. It would be useful if Potlatch and Merkaartor also included the user's language in their UA. 1. select count(*),v from changeset_tags where k='created_by' group by v order by count desc; 2. http://u.nix.is/~avar/created_by.txt 3. http://u.nix.is/~avar/created_by.pl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag dead-ends and how to distinguish them from incomplete ways
Hi, I suppose I'm the culprit for the todo=continue and todo=junction tags, since I've used them internally for some time and then added them to GroundTruth hiking rules once I developed GroundTruth. These tags are not primarily rendering-oriented, they are just pointers (for me and anyone else who cares) that certain ways were not explored (from the todo=continue point onwards) or that there is an unexplored junction on the footway. The area I'm mapping is full full full of these and I cannot cover them all in one go, so I need a way to mark them for future reference. Regards, Igor Dave F. wrote: You see, this is where I get /really /confused I see no reference to 'todo' or 'continue' in the general OSM wiki. In the Groundtruth wiki page they're highlighted red, saying there there no reference page. I'm repeatedly told don't tag for the renderers Yet it appears in this case the renderers are telling the mappers what to do. The previous post implies these tags will only work in Groundtruth renders. What am I not understanding? At the moment it looks like the left hand is deliberately not telling the right what is going on. I fully support the endeavours of OSM but the hierarchical stature of it leaves me baffled at the moment. Oh, Liz, if you're reading. please don't post to tell me some of the 'regulars' have anarchy symbols on the blog page as if that some how makes it all OK. I hope you can all show me the light. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Terms of use for OSM tiles and API?
2009/9/29 mdeen md...@xs4all.nl As GNU puts it quite rightly: 'you should think of free as in free speech, not as in free beer'. OSM does not hand out free beers (unlimited access to rendered tiles) but gives free speech (you can use and modify the data freely). But I agree it should be made clear that while OSM does give out some free beers, it is limited and when the tap is broken, there is no guarantee it will be on when the pub opens again. I don't think anyone is suggesting that OSM should make any guarantees as to the availability/speed of its tileservers or XML API. However, some kind of policy spelling out that, for instance, embedding tiles on another site is okay, even if it's commercial, so long as it doesn't use up a ton of bandwidth, would be a good idea. With the XML API, we could simply spell out that it's mainly intended for interactive use, and perhaps even suggest a limit to the number of requests (above which people should implement their own server from the planet dumps). But, the root cause is something unfortunately out of OSM's control - the cost of server space, server power, and bandwidth needs to come down, it's a significant hurdle to not-for-profit hobbyists wishing to develop powerful websites. There is no such thing as free beer. If they want to depend on it, they should support the item they rely on i.e.: offer server space or give monetary support). Suggesting that people who use the API or tileservers for commercial sites/projects should donate something is a good idea. I'm asking all this because a) we have an export feature which uses our tileserver, but doesn't make clear how you're allowed to use the embed code. b) I've met dozens of people, from big commercial clients to developer contacts, who have wanted to use the tileserver or API, but who haven't been sure about what's allow, and haven't got the time or expertise to set up their own servers. I do think that, for OSM, Wikipedia, DBpedia, Freebase, GeoNames, etc are more appropriate examples than the Linux kernel. Whilst the Linux kernel is pretty stable, and gets included and compiled into bigger projects, OSM and Wikipedia contain fast-changing data, and so it's more natural to have the place where they're consumed and the place where they're created much closer together. So whilst there are plenty of data mirrors of those services out there, most people tend to use the APIs provided by the services themselves, unless the have particularly big requirements. Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [english 94%] Re: How to tag dead-ends and how to distinguishthem from incomplete ways
Hi Igor, the tags are great! If all renderers would show them (and in combination with the noexit-tag), we could improve quality and confidence in OSM. After my summer holiday in corfu with different paper maps, which proved to be very inaccurate (missing villages, missing junctions and roads, ...) I lost confidence when I left the big roads. OSM was far from complete, and the todo and noexit- tag would have helped me quite a bit (for my own mapping, and by others). Just think of counting junctions to your next turning off, or following a track which ends somewhere in the olive forests... Kai - Original Message - From: Igor Brejc igor.br...@gmail.com To: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:35 PM Subject: [english 94%] Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag dead-ends and how to distinguishthem from incomplete ways Hi, I suppose I'm the culprit for the todo=continue and todo=junction tags, since I've used them internally for some time and then added them to GroundTruth hiking rules once I developed GroundTruth. These tags are not primarily rendering-oriented, they are just pointers (for me and anyone else who cares) that certain ways were not explored (from the todo=continue point onwards) or that there is an unexplored junction on the footway. The area I'm mapping is full full full of these and I cannot cover them all in one go, so I need a way to mark them for future reference. Regards, Igor Dave F. wrote: You see, this is where I get /really /confused I see no reference to 'todo' or 'continue' in the general OSM wiki. In the Groundtruth wiki page they're highlighted red, saying there there no reference page. I'm repeatedly told don't tag for the renderers Yet it appears in this case the renderers are telling the mappers what to do. The previous post implies these tags will only work in Groundtruth renders. What am I not understanding? At the moment it looks like the left hand is deliberately not telling the right what is going on. I fully support the endeavours of OSM but the hierarchical stature of it leaves me baffled at the moment. Oh, Liz, if you're reading. please don't post to tell me some of the 'regulars' have anarchy symbols on the blog page as if that some how makes it all OK. I hope you can all show me the light. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [english 94%] Re: How to tag dead-ends and how to distinguishthem from incomplete ways
Heh, I lost myself on Corfu once, too... Way back in '97, using a paper map. Those were the good old student days... Igor k...@vielevisels wrote: Hi Igor, the tags are great! If all renderers would show them (and in combination with the noexit-tag), we could improve quality and confidence in OSM. After my summer holiday in corfu with different paper maps, which proved to be very inaccurate (missing villages, missing junctions and roads, ...) I lost confidence when I left the big roads. OSM was far from complete, and the todo and noexit- tag would have helped me quite a bit (for my own mapping, and by others). Just think of counting junctions to your next turning off, or following a track which ends somewhere in the olive forests... Kai - Original Message - From: Igor Brejc igor.br...@gmail.com To: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:35 PM Subject: [english 94%] Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag dead-ends and how to distinguishthem from incomplete ways Hi, I suppose I'm the culprit for the todo=continue and todo=junction tags, since I've used them internally for some time and then added them to GroundTruth hiking rules once I developed GroundTruth. These tags are not primarily rendering-oriented, they are just pointers (for me and anyone else who cares) that certain ways were not explored (from the todo=continue point onwards) or that there is an unexplored junction on the footway. The area I'm mapping is full full full of these and I cannot cover them all in one go, so I need a way to mark them for future reference. Regards, Igor Dave F. wrote: You see, this is where I get /really /confused I see no reference to 'todo' or 'continue' in the general OSM wiki. In the Groundtruth wiki page they're highlighted red, saying there there no reference page. I'm repeatedly told don't tag for the renderers Yet it appears in this case the renderers are telling the mappers what to do. The previous post implies these tags will only work in Groundtruth renders. What am I not understanding? At the moment it looks like the left hand is deliberately not telling the right what is going on. I fully support the endeavours of OSM but the hierarchical stature of it leaves me baffled at the moment. Oh, Liz, if you're reading. please don't post to tell me some of the 'regulars' have anarchy symbols on the blog page as if that some how makes it all OK. I hope you can all show me the light. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How *NOT* to map
On 29/09/2009, at 11.30, John Smith wrote: 2009/9/29 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Does anyone have a script to calculate the 12nm-offset and probably simplify the outcome? The Australia 12nm boundary was guessed by someone and roughly put in... Personally, I think that's a much better choice than letting it coincide with the coastline, as long as it's tagged with a fixme note. -- Morten PS: The correct abbreviation for nautical miles is nmi (sometimes M). nm usually means nanometer :-) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
I've been noticing recently a problem we're going to/already have in our data when it comes to routing directions particularly. It concerns how to define continuations of roads at junctions and/or the road markings that delineate that. This problem manifests itself in many ways but for a first example, look at the attached image (road.png). On the left you will see the physical plan of a road junction near where I live. The way that it would be represented in the OSM data model is shown on the right. In this case, it would be sensible to make a way out of the segments 'a' and 'b' (yeah, I know we don't have segments any more, it's just an explanation tool), call it, e.g. 'Curve Road' and make a second way out of segment 'c' and call it 'Small Road'. At this stage, the date representation is sound and routing application would have no problem knowing how to parse it. However, there are two (increasingly common) ways in which this model will be forced to be broken: 1. Naming doesn't match (e.g. [1]) This is the case near me. There used to be a road going along segment 'a' and 'c' called Frogmore Lane. Then when segment 'b' was built (and called Stonechat Road) they changed the road markings so that as you drive North from point 'A' they would guide you along 'b' towards 'B' (as in the left-hand picture). That is, you would be changed from being on Frogmore Lane to Stonechat Road without having 'turned'. Frogmore Lane continues along segment 'c'. In this case, I have to make 'a', 'b' and 'c' separate ways (well, 'a' and 'c' could be combined but that doesn't help) 2. Split for relations or some other property change Imagine a bus route goes along 'a' and 'b' while a cycle route goes along 'a' and 'c'. In order to place the correct ways in each relation, the three segments must be in separate ways. Topologically, this is just three ways meeting at a single node. There's no way to tell a driver to carry on along the road from A to B versus turn off the road at D along c. This information simply isn't in the database. Now, the routing application could try to guess the physical structure by looking at which two segments are most parallel but that would fail since the continuation is orthogonal to the road. They can't guess based on road names either due to point 1. Now in many ways I guess this is similar to the turn restrictions or street relations but they both have pitfalls when describing this sort of structure. I don't have a solution to this problem but I was hoping to spark a discussion about a simple and elegant way to describe this situation in those few (but frequent enough) places that this is necessary. Furthermore, Google directions frequently get this wrong! Thoughts/comments/suggestions? Regards, Matt Williams http://milliams.com [1] http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.911352lon=-1.016514zoom=18 attachment: road.png___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
Hi, Matt Williams wrote: On the left you will see the physical plan of a road junction near where I live. The way that it would be represented in the OSM data model is shown on the right. [...] Your problem can and should be solved by a relation that models: to travel from node X to node Y on way(s) A,B,C the instruction to display is: . There are probably some clever algorithms to get some of these cases right but there will alway be cases that have to be modeled explicitly. The same kind of relation could also be used to describe signposting (to travel from X to Y on way(s) A, B, C follow the signs towards: ...). This is also knowledge that cannot be synthesized. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - key:prominence
Here is a proposal for tagging natural=peak with its prominence (prime factor) in meters: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/key:prominence Please comment, preferably on the talk-page. Best Regards Egil Hjelmeland ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address interpolation
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Mike N. nice...@att.net wrote: Since I haven't heard any counter points of view, how do we proceed with this? Based on previous comments, it should not just be Edit the wiki page, or is this change small enough to just update the wiki? If you're referring to defining alphabetic address interpolation (for the latin alphabet), I would say just update the wiki. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Field boundaries
Peter Childs wrote: 2009/9/28 Mark Williams mark@blueyonder.co.uk: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 courtland.yoc...@mindspring.com wrote: I've been thinking a bit about this from a very different perspective - that of parks and other open public areas where you might not have a chance to walk the perimeter ... for instance, you've a dog who really doesn't want that boring walk around the edge, but bobs and weaves all about the space and this might be one of only a couple of potential visits you might be able to make to the site. I think that an accumulation of unordered points over time either by one person or multiple people who capture GPS information _incidentally_ would be useful in defining the core of the public (or private, in the case of tractors on farmland) space. There's no need to gather tracks, merely points. Let the accumulation of points define the space. This is something of a corollary to the notion of wisdom of the crowd and it can be seen in action in the United States on major thoroughfares, such as the interstate highways, where the accumulation of multiple tracks over time can be u sed to define a way. user id on openstreemap = ceyockey If I'm out walking with the dogs, I tend to not go near the edge UNLESS I'm mapping, because they won't crawl under hedges if I'm already a fair way off, but will do so happily if it doesn't take them far. I suspect I'm not the only one, so you'd end up with a ludicrously fat hedge. I also tend not to go into corners will often stop a little before the end of a field. Mark I think this is a case of Better to have a park with a ludicrously fat hedge than no hedge, or field at all. With average GPS only giving an accuracy of around 10-50 meters its not going to be far out anyway. Peter. I wouldn't be such as slave to your GPS. We all know of the apocryphal stories of GPS slaves who drive off cliff faces. Just because you didn't walk to the corner doesn't mean you didn't survey it. If you're aware that the hedge isn't actually fat then don't map it as such, do it as you saw it. Your eyes are the most important/accurate piece of surveying equipment. If your minds not to hot though, take a camera/paper/pen. If fields boundaries are straight, I rarely walk the whole perimeter, just parts of those boundaries extrapolate. Either that, or train you dogs to do as you order :-) Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Protection time of ODbL
Hi, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: The same goes with the ODbL. Once you make a planet dump and let 15 years pass, you can not assert any rights over the dump... so you can not assert the ODbL. Simple as that. Question is: 1. what about the contents themselves. Have we reached a consensus that the contents of the database are themselves not protected by copyright and do we explicitly say that we don't claim any copyright? And 2. you are wrong because ODBL tries exactly that, to assert rights over the collection even in jurisdictions where there are none, by invoking the idea of a contract - so where is it written that the contract, which may well exist in parallel to sui generis rights in Europe, also terminates after 15 years? The contributor terms should be able to answer the copyright question clearly but I'm apalled to see it has grown into a legal document whose foremost purpose is to *not* answer anything clearly or quickly. I think it is very sad that we can't even talk plaintext among ourselves, and to the people we are trying to attract to OSM. I'm sorry but I start getting that funny sensation when I read sentences (the Sentences) where every second word (the Word) is capitalised (Capitalised) and repeated, and henceforth every capitalised word must be read with scrutiny and compared to its definition. Then we end up writing a human language version of the document because nobody can be bothered to read and understand the original, but we still expect them to sign the original... well I guess that's how these things go. Well, after that short diatribe - I can't answer the question for sure. We require from our contributors that they grant OSMF and any recipient of the data to do anything that would normally be restricted by copyright; this sounds like we're waiving any potential copyright protection over the contents themselves. Right? Bye Frederik ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
Frankie Roberto wrote: 2009/9/29 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com It works for building=yes, but not building=true. Well, Flickr says This is a feature in OpenStreetMap instead of $name is a building in OpenStreetMap. Did I miss a vital clue where yes and true are not interchangable? I thought yes was just a synonym for true, but I could be wrong. Is there a guidance page on this difference? for building all values are correct, as building=* (or user defined) is defined. (this doesn't mean that for other keys it would not be correct to use user defined-values of course). Indeed. As to yes/no vs true/false vs 1/0 though, I think there was a discussion about this ages ago, and the conclusion seemed to be (from memory) that yes/no was the preferred/most common approach. (Guess renderers should probably accept all three forms though). This appears like a good example of the laxity of tagging rules within OSM is causing problems with the implementation of it. Even with the simple boolean, the non preferred options could be completely banned. What is the reason this can not be implemented? Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flickr Now Supports OSM Tags
could /not /be completely banned. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
Hi, Roy Wallace wrote: In that case, use a relation. Two options: 1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag [...] 2) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Collected_Ways Both don't go far enough in my opinion. This is not a question of how can I express that two ways actually belong together, but the more general question of how can I model hints about the way in which the physical junction presents itself to the driver. For example you might have a junction that, in the OSM node/way representation, looks like a sideways T (i.e. it looks as if you can go straight on if you come from the South), and in reality it is Y shaped where if you come from the South you can either go half-left or half-right but never straight on. This, too, is a situation where you would want to model extra routing hints, and many others are possible. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Revert request - Russia, Irkutsk - Evgeny Mandrikov
Hi! We have a problem in Irkutsk, Russia. From August 2008 to February 2009, Evgeny Mandrikovhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Evgeny%20Mandrikov/editshas made the import of a whole city, but made it very casually: duplicate streets, unclosed contours of buildings, addresses as names of buildings, etc. Look at http://osm.org/go/8MwZTStYI- Many users, including myself, asked him when he plans to correct all the mistakes that he made during the import. (see http://godin.net.ru/ru/blog/08/09/04/irkutsk-na-openstreetmap-pervye-shagi - entry in his blog). He says that he has no time for it. At this time, in our local community, Irkutsk cited as an example of how you should not do. The same suspicion legality of imports, especially from a no loops houses - say that this is a clear sign that the map was exported from Garmin map. I asked Eugene, that was the source of these data, to which he replied to me that this is the map drawn on the work of GPS tracks. However, the main streets are not placed on tracks uploaded to OSM. Hence, I conclude that he speaks a lie. Over this user did nothing in the OSM. Total: I believe that all the changes the user should be rolled back, as none of the users will undertake to repair the huge number of errors - is easier to redraw from scratch, the more so because there is a high-resolution images of Yahoo. Who can do this? Thanks. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Clarifying and representing road markings at junctions
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Roy Wallace wrote: In that case, use a relation. Two options: 1) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag 2) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Collected_Ways Both don't go far enough in my opinion. This is not a question of how can I express that two ways actually belong together, but the more general question of how can I model hints about the way in which the physical junction presents itself to the driver. I disagree. As Matt said, it is a question of how to define continuations of roads at junctions. Providing hints...to the driver, I think, is a job for routing software. For example you might have a junction that, in the OSM node/way representation, looks like a sideways T (i.e. it looks as if you can go straight on if you come from the South), and in reality it is Y shaped where if you come from the South you can either go half-left or half-right but never straight on. In this example, does the road continue without interruption on the left or right? If so, it can be modeled in the same way as Matt's original example. If not, shouldn't it just be modeled with 3 separate ways ending at the junction, as usual? Maybe I misunderstood the example - could you perhaps draw a picture? This, too, is a situation where you would want to model extra routing hints, and many others are possible. I don't think we should be storing routing hints in the OSM database. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
