Re: [OSM-talk] correcting/helping inexperienced mappers
On 2 July 2010 14:07, Robin Paulson wrote: > up till now, i've corrected mistakes as i've seen them, but he does so > much it's become a hell of a job, and feels like pointless duplication > of effort That's not helping him, generally if I spot mistakes I send a short email pointing out the mistake and ask if they need help fixing them, rather than just fixing them, they may figure out their own mistakes in time but there will be a lot of mistakes before that happens in the mean time. > i guess this is more of a training/diplomacy issue than mapping per > se, but i was never great at either of those I'd suggest it's more of a mentoring thing than anything more formal, rather than anything more official, just ask if they're aware of the mistakes, just be polite and a little tactful about it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] correcting/helping inexperienced mappers
there's a mapper near me, who's very active adding data. the problem is, he's making a lot of mistakes, such as roads not joining correctly at junctions, bridges drawn as a separate parallel line to the highway they should relate to, and other fairly unambiguous errors. up till now, i've corrected mistakes as i've seen them, but he does so much it's become a hell of a job, and feels like pointless duplication of effort i would like to point out what he's doing, but am concerned i'll piss him off and/or discourage him from mapping at all. the area we're in doesn't have a huge number of mappers, so osm really needs his enthusiasm and knowledge any suggestions on how to approach this? i guess this is more of a training/diplomacy issue than mapping per se, but i was never great at either of those cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Issues with this week's planet?
Hello, I downloaded this week's planet and some modifications I made last Sunday are not in. Was there an issue with this week's planet? Thanks, N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Hi! Thanks Emilie for starting this thread. I too decided to run as a candidate for the board election and while take this chance to introduce myself. Introduction I am an active member of OSM since the end of 2008 and began by mapping my hometown (like most of you I suspect). I used Tagwatch a lot to find out which tags people use but wanted something better which lead to OSMdoc.com. I also developed the tool that exports the complete history of OSM data as well as all the GPS-traces. I'm also active on the international-, the dev- and the german mailing list as well as on IRC. Outside of OSM I'm just a software engineer/architect but until now I wasn't fortunate enough to have a job in which I could work on OSM. Statement OSM is a great project and it is exciting for multiple reasons. I personally find it exciting because unlike other projects (wikipedia, ...) we produce data that is primarily intended for machine-use which allows for some great use-cases as we all know. But we also have the problems that come with it, one being the license issues that no other project has faced so far. Another being that every contributor comes to OSM with his/her own intentions and goals which obviously leads to problems here and there. But in a whole I think we have a great and diverse community (people mapping towns, air routes, the sea, ski slopes etc. where else do you get so many different people and interests working on the same project?). Problems we should tackle One major problem is the accessibility for new users. We don't always make it easy for them and there's a lot that could be done. An integrated OpenStreetBugs is one solution but I think we could also benefit from an even easier solution for unregistered users to just report bugs in our data. Our Wiki could use a clean up too and in general there's a lot that can be done on the documentation front. One thing we're pretty good at (at least in Germany) is our representation on conferences, meetups and such things. We need to make it easier for pretty much everyone to get started with OSM. This includes companies; and I'm glad that the OSMF has tackled a lot of the license issues in the past and will continue to do so. We also need better communication between pretty much everyone. I think the OSMF could do an even better job at keeping the users informed, developers could communicate with each other to avoid a lot of the duplicated efforts, etc. As has been stated multiple times we also need specific contact persons/addresses for media and companies so they have someone to deal with. I'd love to take at least part of this responsibility (in Germany or elsewhere). There are also a lot of projects dealing with OSM data. Most of them are just "hobby" projects and run on one of the free dev-servers we have. But there are a lot more projects in the pipeline that could use resources. While not a core OSMF job I think we should help here where we can because these are prominent projects and are often used as examples for OSM. For this we need resources and there are companies willing to donate these resources. I'd love to work on this and I've already started in the last months. But what we also need is better cooperation between those developers to avoid duplicate efforts and I think OSM could benefit from a few "hackathons" as they are usual in other projects. Currently these mainly exist in the UK and I'd love to organize something in Germany. Looking at the past Meeting Minutes of the OSMF board there are a lot of open topics and I'm sure I'll find something that could benefit from my work. Because it is a popular topic a few words on my opinion on the license issue: I place all my edits in the public domain where/if possible (or a similar license like CC0) and I'd love to adopt this as _the_ license for OSM. I support however the change to ODbL as it seems to answer at least some of the questions and problems that currently exist with CC-BY-SA. In the end it will always be hard to find a license that works for every country on the planet equally well. So while I support the ODbL I hope a PD-like-license will be at least evaluated. I'm happy for every vote I get and I'll be available to answer questions via mail (or any other method you can find to contact me). I'll also be at the SotM from Friday to Sunday. Cheers, Lars ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On 2 July 2010 03:42, Roy Wallace wrote: > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:23 AM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: >> >> >> I think the rules for joining segments by osm2pgsql should be something like: >> ... > > But hang on. Do we actually want to "join segments [ways]", or do we > want *separate* ways to share a name label? > > I believe we want the second. Consider a renderer that renders the > lanes=* tag with some style. Say you have two connected ways: > > name=Foo Street > lanes=2 > > and > > name=Foo Street > lanes=4 > > You don't want to "join these ways" with osm2pgsql before rendering, > because you want to render them differently. You probably do, however, > want them to share a name label. Right? Well, right, not necessarily join ways and then forget the segments. But at some point the renderer has to create a "geometry" that includes both ways, even if it's just to render a text along it. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Accessibility] You have killed accessibility!
On 2 July 2010 02:55, Nolan Darilek wrote: > There are also CAPTCHA options that don't rely on either sight or > hearing. I'm only blind, so the audio CAPTCHA would work for me, but I > can't silently sit by when my own disability is accounted for at the > expense of another. > > http://textcaptcha.com > > That's a much more inclusive CAPTCHA. Yeah, but these rely on good understanding of English, and some of the questions seem to be getting more and more complicated. At some point the bot protection is going to be asking humans to interpret a poem or something like that :) And then spam bots will learn to do even this. My little theory is that this is why the popular CAPTCHAS rely on one or more of human senses instead of pure logic. Computers are good at logic, but it takes an awfully complicated neural network to interpret a sound or an image. Humans have a "hardware shortcut" to do that, like some highly specialised GPUs and FPGAs. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:23 AM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > > > I think the rules for joining segments by osm2pgsql should be something like: > ... But hang on. Do we actually want to "join segments [ways]", or do we want *separate* ways to share a name label? I believe we want the second. Consider a renderer that renders the lanes=* tag with some style. Say you have two connected ways: name=Foo Street lanes=2 and name=Foo Street lanes=4 You don't want to "join these ways" with osm2pgsql before rendering, because you want to render them differently. You probably do, however, want them to share a name label. Right? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
Hi, On 1 July 2010 12:32, Ilya Zverev wrote: > Although Mapnik does not repeat names, it repeats ref for trunks: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=57.69949&lon=28.33726&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF > (scroll it north/south) > > So I don't think repeating names would be a problem. The fact that Mapnik > doesn't do this looks like a bug: on long streets it's sometimes hard to > find a name. Yeah, it seems cloudmade layers do repeat names (maps.cloudmade.com) and it's a nice feature. They don't join segmented ways though. I think the rules for joining segments by osm2pgsql should be something like: * name='s are equal, * highway/railway/waterway/aeroway class is equal (however I wouldn't mind osm2pgsql joining a 3-segment way where the middle segment is shared with a tramway) * only two such ways meet at the common node -- not a Y type of junction where all three ways have identical names & classes. * (possibly) not divided by a crossing with a higher class way, * (possibly) not meeting at a narrow angle * oneway='s are equal (or inverse, in case the ways have opposite directions), * unless it's a zoom level where the oneway arrows are invisible. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Thanks - Wiki is accessible again
Hi, thank you for the quick reaction. The wiki is now again accessible for the blind, the captcha has an alternative audio function. Great! Best regards Lulu-Ann ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
Steve Bennett wrote: >Definitely. I would go so far as to say that two connected ways should >render identically to if they were a single way, except for the actual >differences in tags between them. Not quite. Where a dual carriageway becomes a single carriageway, this would wrap the name around from one side of the dual carriageway to the other. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
Mobile navigation applications for those that are blind are very expensive. One of the more popular ones MobileGeo is about $800 USD. I have a couple friends using MobileGeo who share waypoints with each other but would love to have access to other people map information and be able to share theirs as well. Unfortunately I haven't done much about this yet. -Kate user:Wonderchook On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Stefan de Konink wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, David Murn wrote: > >> Just wait til she finds out what her 'access' is like this weekend.. >> >> On a serious note, how many blind mappers do we have on OSM? > > Blind users or just interested people are enough. And I can find a zillion > reason why a blind person wants to use OSM. > > > Stefan > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
[quoting from #osm-dev] > (05:08:49 PM) Firefishy: !log wiki enabled reCaptcha (with code fixes) > instead of silly image Captcha. Thank you, Firefishy (Grant), for fixing the code so that ReCaptcha can be used on our wiki! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:10 AM, Igor Brejc wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: > The problem is that if you go to a rule "one road, name displayed once", > you will have to search for the name of the road if the road is very long. > > The actual rule is: treat it as a single OSM way and then decide how often to > repeat the name for longer ways. > > This might not be a problem with residential roads on lower zoom levels, > but it will with e.g. motorways on higher zoom levels. > > Look example [1]. There is no name on the motorway (I've got my browser > about 1100 pix wide). > I have deliberately cut a local stream up to make the name render in more > places. > > > It's up to the renderer to decide how often to repeat the name. In the case of Mapnik, labels are repeated along lines by default, but its up to the stylesheet author to specify the spacing between them. So, it is the rendering rules in question really, not the renderer. > Cutting up ways just to make it look better for a certain renderer (Mapnik) > isn't really a good practice. And it not needed at all if Mapnik is the renderer. > And anyway, this depends on the zoom level: once you zoom into enough, you > will still get ways that will be long and with one label only. And if you > zoom out, you won't get _any_ labels, since the split ways will be too short > to show anything. > > Igor > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Upcoming OSM Server Maintenance
Looks like this just started. Have to remember to pick up some anti-anxiety meds on the way home from work tonight. Must... edit... map! On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Grant Slater wrote: > On 26 June 2010 07:12, David Murn wrote: >> >> Having just bought a new hard-drive, I found 400gb almost unavailable, >> most disks these days seem to start at 1tb and go up. >> > > These are 'Server' SCSI (Serial Attached SCSI) disks. They are still > available. > > The highest available size is 600GB. We are going for the 450GB disks > to match our current disks in the storage array. > > / Grant > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Are there strategic votes pro PD and/or negative to ODbL? Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Liz wrote: I have seen a captcha with an option to listen to something. Sorry now that I didn't try it, nor recall where I saw it. http://www.google.com/recaptcha Ask and it is given. Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
In addition to the manifestos there is a bit of Q&A on the discussion page. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/AGM10/Election_to_Board ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Lulu-Ann wrote: > Since today the wiki can not be edited any more calculating plus or > minus, now you have to be able to see a captcha image. There is no > accessibility feature like acoustic output. > > Revert immediately!!! > > You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!! > > Lulu-Ann I have seen a captcha with an option to listen to something. Sorry now that I didn't try it, nor recall where I saw it. Take off the captchas! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
Am 01.07.2010 22:35, schrieb David Murn: On a serious note, how many blind mappers do we have on OSM? A single onw is enough. And yes, there are more than this. Thank you, Lulu-Ann, for reporting this bug. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, David Murn wrote: Just wait til she finds out what her 'access' is like this weekend.. On a serious note, how many blind mappers do we have on OSM? Blind users or just interested people are enough. And I can find a zillion reason why a blind person wants to use OSM. Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
Just wait til she finds out what her 'access' is like this weekend.. On a serious note, how many blind mappers do we have on OSM? On Thu, 2010-07-01 at 20:20 +0200, Lulu-Ann wrote: > Since today the wiki can not be edited any more calculating plus or > minus, now you have to be able to see a captcha image. There is no > accessibility feature like acoustic output. > > Revert immediately!!! > > You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!! > > Lulu-Ann > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Hi, as I am another candidate for the board election that runs from today until July 9th I would like to append this post by my manifesto that represents my view and thoughts on OpenStreetMap. A brief personal overview can be found here [1]. I would also like to refer to the overview and process for this election: [2]. Please note that you can vote for up to three candidates. Best Regards, Oliver [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Oliver.kuehn [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/AGM10/Election_to_Board Oliver's OSMF Board Election 2010 Manifesto Introduction OpenStreetMap is a fantastic project. It attracts more and more contributors. The map coverage is developing fast, shows an immense dynamic and gains a very interesting level of details in specific areas. While the contributors and the map coverage is growing fast, the usage of OpenStreetMap data lacks behind. Most users that just want to ‘consume’ a map go to sources like Google Maps while many companies that are interested in OpenStreetMap data remain hesitant because they are feeling unsecure in regards of the share-a-like license. For me it seems like that part of the OpenStreetMap potential remains untapped. My ultimate aim My ultimate aim is to help that the OpenStreetMap project unfolds its own ecosystem by discovering and claiming its (market) segment in the digital mapping turf - regardless if it is special interest maps, outstanding detailed coverage or whatever. I want to help that OpenStreetMap becomes a viable alternative in the Open Geo stack when users, developers or companies need a digital map. My intention is to help that OpenStreetMap achieves the acceptance and respect it deserves among developers and companies so that an ecosystem can evolve. What change There are three specific goals that I want to pursue: (1) Improve the communication among mappers, companies, developers: Make transparent for which use cases the map is appropriate, where its strengths and weaknesses are by “decrypting” the license, providing better information and statistics about the map coverage as well as the available map attributes. From my discussions I know that many companies are interested in using OpenStreetMap but remain reluctant as they fear that proprietary data will become “public data”. On the other hand many people consider OSM as a playground for techies as they have taken their last closer look at the map more than 18 months ago and this impression still prevails. (2) Help to identify a spot in the digital mapping turf that gives the OpenStreetMap project a long-term perspective and builds upon the strengths of OpenStreetMap. Most activities in the OSM community are related to the fun stuff like mapping, inventing new map attributes or coding software solutions related to OSM. While the OpenStreetMap project attracts more and more users, most activities are not crosschecked against a long-term strategy. Many values have been established in the OpenStreetMap community and there seems to be something in the air, which makes all the active contributors belief in the project. However, the vision, mission and values need to be distilled and transformed into words so that they become explicit and serve as guideline for short- and mid-term decisions as well as to inspire even more people to join the OpenStreetMap project as active contributors. (3) Protect the OpenStreetMap project from exploitation by large companies. There is a lot of money at stake: Nokia paid $8.1 billion for Navteq, TomTom paid €1.8 billion for TeleAtlas. The map maker acquisitions during 2007 led to fact that there no more independent commercial map makers on a global scale. Many players have now to purchase map data licenses from their fiercest competition. Due to this situation there are many companies out there that are interested in having their own map. In the US market there is the Tiger data set, which has been used to build a digital map database. The situation is different in Europe and other places on the world where such a free “raw database” does not exist. It is an act of balance to protect the IP on the one hand and to encourage the use of the OpenStreetMap data on the other hand. Therefore it needs significant attention. Since the OpenStreetMap data are a scarce resource in many places of the world these data need to be protected against exploitations. While others would like to see OpenStreetMap as public domain, I am a supporter for well balanced license. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Candidacy-AGM-Foundation-2010-Girona-tp522p5245093.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
On Thursday 01 July 2010, lulu-...@gmx.de wrote: > There is a possibility to have captchas with audio output. Yes, and strangely enough the admins, not being idiots, did consider this beforehand. Unfortunately there is an issue with our current version of mediawiki and recaptcha. In the meantime, the spammers were having their wicked way with our wiki. I'm sure this will be sorted out soon. Panic will do nothing to speed it up. robert. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
On Thursday 01 July 2010 21:14:23 lulu-...@gmx.de wrote: > There is a possibility to have captchas with audio output. Yes, but it takes time to implement. Captchas were implemented as a quick hack to keep spammers at bay. It was not a deliberate move to keep blind people away. Please bear with the wiki admins while they see if they can remove captchas completely, or put audio ones, or whatever solution works best for everyone. I know OSM is addicting, but please be patient for a couple of days. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega I would be batting the big feller if they wasn't ready with the other one, but a left-hander would be the thing if they wouldn't have knowed it already because there is more things involved than could come up on the road, even after we've been home a long while. -- Casey Stengel signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
There is a possibility to have captchas with audio output. You can not just kick out all blind contributors, they are not blind by choice. We don't kick out all Ivans either, shall we? Regards Lulu-Ann Original-Nachricht > Datum: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:50:34 +0200 > Von: "Iván Sánchez Ortega" > An: talk@openstreetmap.org > CC: Lulu-Ann , accessibility > > Betreff: Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility! > On Thursday 01 July 2010 20:20:55 Lulu-Ann wrote: > > You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!! > > We're also inhibiting the spammers, who are a nuisance just right now. > > User block didn't work, and IP block didn't work, so the wiki admins were > forced to implement captchas. > > > > -- > -- > Iván Sánchez Ortega > > -- GRATIS für alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
This could be solved with the proposed relation=segmented_tag (which seems to be abandoned, and I would prefer the name relation=segment) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag The relation takes one way and two nodes on the way as members. Then this segment can be used as a member in bus route relations etc. The benefit would be that the way could be kept as a single way and not split in more or less every crossing. While this would not solve the problem over night it might be a more stable model for future use. Konrad 2010/7/1 John Smith : > On 1 July 2010 17:59, Igor Brejc wrote: >> This results in even more complicated situation and even more work to >> maintain such data. And even if do you follow this practice, there will >> still be huge amounts of "legacy" data which do not. >> I think if two streets share the same name and are adjacent to each other, >> it is reasonable for renderers to assume it's the same street. > > Depending on the number of segments it would still make more sense to > put this information into a relation, since you are reducing the > amount of redundant data. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: On Thursday 01 July 2010 20:20:55 Lulu-Ann wrote: You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!! We're also inhibiting the spammers, who are a nuisance just right now. User block didn't work, and IP block didn't work, so the wiki admins were forced to implement captchas. There are captcha options with an audio version, such as reCaptcha: http://www.google.com/recaptcha Andy -- Andy PGP Key ID: 0xDC1B5864 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Lift captcha restriction for some users?
User block didn't work, and IP block didn't work, so the wiki admins were forced to implement captchas. Would it be possible to lift captcha restriction for autoconfirmed users or to create an additional group (similar to the autopatrolled group on Wikipedia: 90 days old, 500 edits) with captcha restriction lifted? Thanks, N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
On Thursday 01 July 2010 20:20:55 Lulu-Ann wrote: > You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!! We're also inhibiting the spammers, who are a nuisance just right now. User block didn't work, and IP block didn't work, so the wiki admins were forced to implement captchas. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega Aviso: Este e-mail es confidencial y no debería ser usado por nadie que no sea el destinatario original. No se permite la reproducción mediante fotocopia, walkie-talkie, emisora de radioaficionado, satélite, televisión por cable, proyector, señales de humo, código morse, braille, lenguaje de signos, taquigrafía o cualquier otro medio. Bajo ningún concepto debe traducirse al francés este e-mail. Este e-mail no puede ser ridiculizado, parodiado, juzgado en una competición, o leído en voz alta con un acento gracioso llevando un bigote falso y/o cualquier tipo de sombrero, incluyendo pero no limitándose a pañuelos. No inciten ni provoquen a este e-mail. Si está medicándose, puede experimentar nauseas, desorientación, histeria, vómitos, pérdida temporal de la memoria a corto plazo y malestar general al leer este e-mail. Consulte a su médico o farmacéutico antes de leer este e-mail. Todas las modelos descritas en este e-mail son mayores de 18 años. Este e-mail se reserva el derecho de admisión. Si ha recibido este e-mail por error es probablemente porque estaba borracho cuando escribí la dirección del destinatario. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] You have killed accessibility!
Since today the wiki can not be edited any more calculating plus or minus, now you have to be able to see a captcha image. There is no accessibility feature like acoustic output. Revert immediately!!! You are inhibiting our blind contributors to stay with us!!! Lulu-Ann ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] [Candidacy] AGM Foundation 2010 - Girona
Hello, I am writing to the list to mention that I will be running for the board for the upcoming election for the foundation. After lot of thinking, I have decided that I could potentially contribute to the community in a different way in order to help OSM achieve its goal. I am including my manifesto at the end of that email. Emilie Laffray *OSMF Board 2010* *Introduction* I started getting involved in OpenStreetMap in Automn 2008 where I spent most of my time looking at understanding how it worked before finally joining the site in 2009. My initial interest was to find a free source of geographical data to remove the proprietary data that my company (u-blox) was using. Since I started mapping, I added my hometown in France and did most of the mapping North of Orleans, based on GPS tracks that I did, and mostly on the cadastre (geographical data used for tax purposes) which proved to be a very powerful tool to map France. I am involved in the English and French communities, and active on many international mailing lists. I have also been involved in the Corine Land Cover import in France, where I wrote most of the SQL code to check for overlapping polygons to make sure that the community wouldn't lose polygons for something that was of lower quality. In addition, I have been getting involved with the organization of the State Of The Map 2010 in Gerona, Spain. When I have the time and opportunity, I am also talking about OpenStreetMap (OpenKnowledge Conference 2010, London and SIG La Lettre 2010, Paris) on different topics like data quality and Haiti. Being involved in the State Of The Map conference really gave me the feeling that I could do more for OpenStreetMap, and it is one reason for standing for election. *Statement* I strongly believe that OpenStreetMap needs to communicate better about the different projects that are currently being developed in the different communities. Some projects are very good, but are unfortunately restricted to one community only due to lack of promotion of the tools being developped. In addition, it is clear that some communities would beneficiate from the help of more mature communities in order to help the mapping effort. While English needs to stay the main language, it is a language that not many people are necessarily speaking fluently and it is important that bridges are built to work around those difficulties. *Goals* If I get elected, I would like to push the following points: * Better communication from the Foundation * Better support of community projects * Better support to non English speaking communities * Working towards reducing the barrier of entry to mapping ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
you don't think that only Soviet did that, right? There is evidence, that GNS data (based on US military series) on at least part of territory of Russia was likewise borrowed from Soviet topomaps. No way they can systematically get names of specific geographic features otherwise. Everyone spied on everyone and I guess continue to do so. Maxim Вы писали 1 июля 2010 г., 6:01:10: L> On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Jaak Laineste wrote: >> Unfourtunatly >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not >> mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps >> subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key >> question. >> >> According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could >> protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones: >> a) copyright laws, automatic >> b) try to keep it secret >> c) patents, trademarks L> I read the whole article and decided that USSR copyright was issued to L> creative works, of which a map is usually one. L> Whether copyright extends to facts on the map is not mentioned. L> Very interesting, with "the boot on the other foot" is the statement from UK's L> Ordnance Survey claiming that the Russian maps must be stolen from their L> mapping L> http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf L> a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the L> actual maps L> http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf L> and L> http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf L> Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most L> disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only. L> ___ L> talk mailing list L> talk@openstreetmap.org L> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Web service with OSM contributor names + copyright
On 1 July 2010 21:11, Jaak Laineste wrote: > Of course, this is the obvious risk here. There are probably foursquare > users who are just adding fake venues just to get 1000 points per week etc. > But we have simple solution for that: blocking. First user, then IP. Just > like any other vandalism. If the incetive is not really too strong, then I > doubt it will ever need more handling. This sort of vandalism will be much harder to detect. It's obvious to see intensional damage, but take for examples some of the mass updates people do, eg remove tiger tags, this was valid. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] (Non-)smoking map online
Hi, http://www.opengastromap.org shows amenities and if smoking is permitted, including edit functionality. Regards Lulu-Ann -- GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl. Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
Thank you Liz for sharing this! I am in no way interested in the discussion about russians, sovjet maps, and what should be on or off, but the unclejoe links you pasted are very nice, simply from a historic point of view and they where completely new to me. Being a BSc Cartographer myself, I hadn't heard about that piece of history and the tremendous effort spend by the Russians to create these maps, it is a real eye-opener and (without judging about the reasons why these maps where created) a master-piece regarding mapping, planning and integrating "data" into a global system! > > a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the > actual maps > http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf > and > http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf > > > Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most > disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only. > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Milo van der Linden Open Source Geospatial consultant dogodigi - Geospatial solutions Beukenlaan 2 5261LE Vught T. +31616598808 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Laptop available for SOTM?
Hello everyone, (I thought I'd sent this earlier but it doesn't seem to have got through so apologies if it comes through twice). I'm doing a talk on the Sunday at SOTM. Will there be a laptop available for me to use/borrow? Reason is that I'm combining SOTM with a 10 day holiday, some days I'll be between hotels and having to carry everything with me, and would prefer to minimise the weight as much as possible (as well as the security issues with carrying a laptop...) Thanks, Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Jaak Laineste wrote: > Unfourtunatly > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not > mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps > subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key > question. > > According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could > protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones: > a) copyright laws, automatic > b) try to keep it secret > c) patents, trademarks I read the whole article and decided that USSR copyright was issued to creative works, of which a map is usually one. Whether copyright extends to facts on the map is not mentioned. Very interesting, with "the boot on the other foot" is the statement from UK's Ordnance Survey claiming that the Russian maps must be stolen from their mapping http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf a claim which has been thoroughly disputed by map scholars reviewing the actual maps http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe1.pdf and http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/unclejoe2.pdf Checked Russian maps of Australia available on the internet and most disappointed. One gold mining area in low resolution only. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
Hi again! I hope someone with programming skills is reading this discussion :) >> The problem is that if you go to a rule "one road, name displayed once", >> you will have to search for the name of the road if the road is very >> long. > The actual rule is: treat it as a single OSM way and then decide how often > to repeat the name for longer ways. Although Mapnik does not repeat names, it repeats ref for trunks: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=57.69949&lon=28.33726&zoom=16&layers=B000FTF (scroll it north/south) So I don't think repeating names would be a problem. The fact that Mapnik doesn't do this looks like a bug: on long streets it's sometimes hard to find a name. Try this road (Estonia, for a change): http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=59.35981&lon=24.71644&zoom=17&layers=B000FTF Cutting it just for the name to appear more often is mapping for rendeders, obviously. > In the St Petersburg example, the root of the problem is long street > names. Maybe you need to render it yourself in a smaller/narrower > font. Well, streets sometimes are long enough to fit a name ten times. But segments are small. I don't consider this a font problem, because I'd better have one good-looking label than ten unreadable and redundant. IZ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
My point is that OSM Mapnik layer (or any other map rendering) is not The Truth and we should try to avoid adjusting the underlying data just in order to fix issues like the ones you mentioned. Renderers will improve with time to be able to better handle such things. And they will behave differently, so data that seems beautified for one would not be so nice for the other. And as you said: if you really want a proffesional-like rendering, you can always render it yourself, produce a vector map and do the manual postprocessing afterwards. Igor -On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Richard Mann < richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com> wrote: > I've got situations where a side road name continues across a main > road, and it looks distinctly odd (must happen all the time in grid > layouts). I solved the problem by breaking the way at the main road. > If a renderer wants to be clever and put the sections back together, > they need to suppress the behaviour when the shared node is also > shared by a higher-class highway. > > In the St Petersburg example, the root of the problem is long street > names. Maybe you need to render it yourself in a smaller/narrower > font. > > Richard > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Web service with OSM contributor names + copyright
On 1 July 2010 20:05, Jaak Laineste (Nutiteq) wrote: > contribution comes out, but in other regions you don't and we could > increase number of mappers with some "soft compensations" which cost > nothing and show appreciation to their effort. It could also lead people to do mass changes, with no real differences just to get their name on all maps everywhere... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Web service with OSM contributor names + copyright
>About individual contributors: I can imagine a web service which returns >Display Names of all the contributors of certain area, what about this? Step >further: a web service which generates transparent png image for me to be >used as proper attribution, whatever is the current license/attribution >requirement (input: bounding box and image size)? If the image would be less >than 24x80 pixels then it could be used in mobile too, certainly OpenLayers >could use it. It would be not just for the legal stuff, but also extra >motivation for contributors: "look, there is also my name on the map of my >street!" 2010/6/29 ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen : >>It would be not just for the legal stuff, but also extra >>motivation for contributors: "look, there is also my name on the map of my >> street!" > > That is not a healthy motivation for a "open"streetmapper. I do not understand it. This is something what Google Map Maker has, and I think this is cool idea. If we give badges, visible personal attribution on maps, points on global/regional top for edits etc then it does not make streetmapping less open in any way. It would rather generate more active returning editors. Maybe in some regions you have already enough "grazy editors", who just love mapping for nothing and feel bad if their contribution comes out, but in other regions you don't and we could increase number of mappers with some "soft compensations" which cost nothing and show appreciation to their effort. Jaak ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Liz wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: >> just checked one of these maps. and interestingly it contains data which is >> most likely copied from official maps which are not in PD. Well that was the issue with OS, the ordinance survery in UK, the said that the russian maps stole the information from them. see this : http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OSstatement.pdf more info: http://www.southampton.ac.uk/cartography/sovietmaps/info.html http://sovietmaps.com/history mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
2010/6/24 Kirill Bestoujev : > This is only possible if those countries are nt members of > international copyright treaties. Russia (and USSR) and UK - are > members of those treaties. So same laws apply. Unfourtunatly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_Soviet_Union does not mention anything about maps. Were soviet military maps subject of copyright within USSR at all? This seems to be the key question. According to my common sense, there are several ways how I could protect my stuff (software, maps, images etc), main ones: a) copyright laws, automatic b) try to keep it secret c) patents, trademarks USSR map secrecy was definetly based on option b) and not a); which I could interpret in a way that copyright does not apply to them. So if someone somehow has got the maps then this means that secret holder has just failed to do their job and the maps are therefore public domain. At least outside Russia, in the terms of Berne convension. Certainly within Russia there are probably other laws which protect distribution of military secrets and if you'll go to Russia with the maps then you can be jailed there. Soviets had maps for not only own territory, but globally, up to 1:10.000, covering also e.g. UK. Of course, OS has own opinion about UK part: http://images.jomidav.com/sovietmaps/OS%20Statement.pdf Usually the Soviet maps are not just plain maps: someone has tried to remove their "encryption", has georetified them, digitized etc. These derivates are most probably copyrighted by the ones who did the job. So you need to follow their terms too. ps. The fact that someone was jailed in Russia does not mean that they really had to do something really illegal. It only means that someone with enough power (like military is) did not like what they do. And was the case really about copyright violation? I assume it was rather about military secrets. It is good to know that USSR laws were often contradicting, so if they do not like you or what you do, they'll find a way to punish you; and according to my understanding Russia is quite systematically following similar convinient practise. Jaak, ex-USSR ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licence of Soviet military topographic maps
On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: > just checked one of these maps. and interestingly it contains data which is > most likely copied from official maps which are not in PD. So it is nearly > impossible that these maps are PD. the russian copyright holder may have > bought the source data but very unlikely they have a license for > distribution and release to PD. Now I show my ignorance, but I am assuming that the last major name changes for cities and streets in Russia was post-Stalin, with a few changed after the breakup of the USSR. Am I correct? and now ... what years would be the markers for these events? Because some of post-Stalinist changes would now be expired from copyright? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On 1 July 2010 19:16, Richard Mann wrote: > I've got situations where a side road name continues across a main > road, and it looks distinctly odd (must happen all the time in grid You also get the situation where roads are broken by dual carriage way or other natural features like waterways where the name continues but the road doesn't cross the barrier. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
I've got situations where a side road name continues across a main road, and it looks distinctly odd (must happen all the time in grid layouts). I solved the problem by breaking the way at the main road. If a renderer wants to be clever and put the sections back together, they need to suppress the behaviour when the shared node is also shared by a higher-class highway. In the St Petersburg example, the root of the problem is long street names. Maybe you need to render it yourself in a smaller/narrower font. Richard On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jul 2010 18:41:13 +1000, Steve Bennett > wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Igor Brejc wrote: >>> This results in even more complicated situation and even more work to >>> maintain such data. And even if do you follow this practice, there will >>> still be huge amounts of "legacy" data which do not. >>> I think if two streets share the same name and are adjacent to each >>> other, >>> it is reasonable for renderers to assume it's the same street. >> >> Definitely. I would go so far as to say that two connected ways should >> render identically to if they were a single way, except for the actual >> differences in tags between them. That is, the mere fact of being two >> ways or a single way should make no difference to the rendering - >> that's an error. >> >> I can imagine situations where a renderer would want to repeat a >> street name, or place the street name across the gap (eg, when a >> street changes category, and hence rendering colour), to make clear >> that the two share a name, however. But that should be a deliberate >> business rule. > > The problem is that if you go to a rule "one road, name displayed once", > you will have to search for the name of the road if the road is very long. > This might not be a problem with residential roads on lower zoom levels, > but it will with e.g. motorways on higher zoom levels. > > Look example [1]. There is no name on the motorway (I've got my browser > about 1100 pix wide). > I have deliberately cut a local stream up to make the name render in more > places. > > [1] > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.37798&lon=5.95429&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF > > Regards, > Maarten > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Maarten Deen wrote: > The problem is that if you go to a rule "one road, name displayed once", > you will have to search for the name of the road if the road is very long. > The actual rule is: treat it as a single OSM way and then decide how often to repeat the name for longer ways. > This might not be a problem with residential roads on lower zoom levels, > but it will with e.g. motorways on higher zoom levels. > > Look example [1]. There is no name on the motorway (I've got my browser > about 1100 pix wide). > I have deliberately cut a local stream up to make the name render in more > places. > > It's up to the renderer to decide how often to repeat the name. Cutting up ways just to make it look better for a certain renderer (Mapnik) isn't really a good practice. And anyway, this depends on the zoom level: once you zoom into enough, you will still get ways that will be long and with one label only. And if you zoom out, you won't get _any_ labels, since the split ways will be too short to show anything. Igor ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On Thu, 1 Jul 2010 18:41:13 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Igor Brejc wrote: >> This results in even more complicated situation and even more work to >> maintain such data. And even if do you follow this practice, there will >> still be huge amounts of "legacy" data which do not. >> I think if two streets share the same name and are adjacent to each >> other, >> it is reasonable for renderers to assume it's the same street. > > Definitely. I would go so far as to say that two connected ways should > render identically to if they were a single way, except for the actual > differences in tags between them. That is, the mere fact of being two > ways or a single way should make no difference to the rendering - > that's an error. > > I can imagine situations where a renderer would want to repeat a > street name, or place the street name across the gap (eg, when a > street changes category, and hence rendering colour), to make clear > that the two share a name, however. But that should be a deliberate > business rule. The problem is that if you go to a rule "one road, name displayed once", you will have to search for the name of the road if the road is very long. This might not be a problem with residential roads on lower zoom levels, but it will with e.g. motorways on higher zoom levels. Look example [1]. There is no name on the motorway (I've got my browser about 1100 pix wide). I have deliberately cut a local stream up to make the name render in more places. [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.37798&lon=5.95429&zoom=15&layers=B000FTF Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Igor Brejc wrote: > This results in even more complicated situation and even more work to > maintain such data. And even if do you follow this practice, there will > still be huge amounts of "legacy" data which do not. > I think if two streets share the same name and are adjacent to each other, > it is reasonable for renderers to assume it's the same street. Definitely. I would go so far as to say that two connected ways should render identically to if they were a single way, except for the actual differences in tags between them. That is, the mere fact of being two ways or a single way should make no difference to the rendering - that's an error. I can imagine situations where a renderer would want to repeat a street name, or place the street name across the gap (eg, when a street changes category, and hence rendering colour), to make clear that the two share a name, however. But that should be a deliberate business rule. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On 1 July 2010 17:59, Igor Brejc wrote: > This results in even more complicated situation and even more work to > maintain such data. And even if do you follow this practice, there will > still be huge amounts of "legacy" data which do not. > I think if two streets share the same name and are adjacent to each other, > it is reasonable for renderers to assume it's the same street. Depending on the number of segments it would still make more sense to put this information into a relation, since you are reducing the amount of redundant data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:44 AM, John Smith wrote: > On 1 July 2010 16:17, Roy Wallace wrote: > > Rather, you want multiple ways to share a name. This does sound like a > > job for the renderer to me. > > Or you can help things out by putting the name into a relation and > adding the segments of way as members... > > This results in even more complicated situation and even more work to maintain such data. And even if do you follow this practice, there will still be huge amounts of "legacy" data which do not. I think if two streets share the same name and are adjacent to each other, it is reasonable for renderers to assume it's the same street. Igor ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
On 1 July 2010 16:17, Roy Wallace wrote: > Rather, you want multiple ways to share a name. This does sound like a > job for the renderer to me. Or you can help things out by putting the name into a relation and adding the segments of way as members... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
