Re: [Talk-is] Landupplýsingagáttin
2012/8/19 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Var að prófa landupplýsingagátt Landmælinga Íslands og sá að þeir bjóða upp á WMS afhendingu sem þeir lista á vefsíðunni þeirra. Væri það þess virði að fá leyfi til að nota þær fyrir OpenStreetMap? Þeir gefa upp slóðina á færslunni sjálfri svo það getur varla verið um leyndarmál að ræða. Ég og Þórir fórum á fund með LMÍ fyrir nokkrum árum í von um að fá að nota eitthvað að gögnunum þeirra. Í stuttu máli vildi forstjóri LMÍ ekki gefa okkur gögn undir frjálsu leyfi, ástæðan verandi: * Skv. lögum eru stofnanir eins og LMÍ með höfundarrétt á gögnum sem þær búa til. * Þeim er gert að standa undir sínum rekstri * Í tilfelli LMÍ er þetta gert með að selja aðgang að sínum landsupplýsingagrunni. * Það væri mögulegt fyrir þá að gefa okkur eitthvað undir frjálsu leyfi, en með fjármálaóvissuna (þetta var nokkrum mánuðum eftir hrunið ef ég man rétt) voru þeir ekki til í það. Það væri vel þess virði að spurja aftur, en bara þótt þeir séu með WMS þjón þýðir það ekki að við getum notað gögn af honum. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Gögn sem hurfu fyrir Mosfellsbæ
Held það sé best að spyrja á almenna póstlistanum hvernig á að höndla þetta. 2012/7/21 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Veit ekki betur en að setja þurfi inn gögnin aftur inn sérstaklega. Efast um að það gerist sjálfkrafa. - Svavar Kjarrval On 21/07/12 17:50, bald...@baldvin.com wrote: Hef haft samband beint við DouglasAtEik og hann sagði mér að það væri bara athugunarleysi að vera ekki búinn að samþykkja nýja leyfið. Sagði mér jafnframt að hann ætlaði að gera það hið fyrsta og bað mig að senda sér upplýsingar um það hvernig það væri gert. Ég benti honum á að skrá sig inn á sína síðu og þetta væri aðgengilegt þar, ef ég man rétt. Ef þið hafið nánari upplýsingar þá mættuð þið endilega miðla þeim hér. Ég hef ekki fundið þetta sagt beinum orðum en ég er að vona að gögn sem voru felld út komi aftur inn eftir að hann hefur samþykkt þetta? Veit einhver hvernig það virkar? mbk, Baldvin ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Mosfellsbær og OSMF Redaction
Þetta var DouglasAtEik sem setti þetta svæði inn, það er enn aðgengilegt á http://osm.nix.is/archive/2012-07-20/Iceland.osm.bz2 Ef þú nærð ekki í hann í póst sérðu númerið hjá honum ef þú leitar að douglas eik á ja.is. 2012/7/20 bald...@baldvin.com: Sæl. Sé að Mosfellsbær svo gott sem þurrkaðist út eftir að OSMF Redaction Account fór höndum um svæðið. Er einhversstaðar hægt að fá skýra mynd af því hver það var sem bjó til gögnin sem var eytt svo maður geti reynt að ýta við viðkomandi beint til að fá skilmála samþykkta og gögnin inn aftur, eða er það orðið of seint nú þegar? mbk, Baldvin ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Árangur í Hafnarfirði
Þetta er frábært, vel gert! 2012/7/18 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Hæ. Eftir mikla vinnu get ég með ánægju sagt að Hafnarfjörður er ágætlega nálægt því að vera kláraður. Flestar, ef ekki allar götur, hafa verið leiðréttar í samræmi við BING loftmyndirnar og húslínur eru til staðar svo langt sem loftmyndirnar leyfa. Meiri hluti húsa bæjarins hafa verið merkt með húsnúmerum og tengdar við götur en það ferli mun líklegast klárast á næstu tveim vikum. Mig langar að biðja ykkur um að nostra smá við bæinn líka svo hægt sé að senda út fréttatilkynningu þegar það helsta er komið. Það sem mætti gera er að bæta við fleiri gangstígum, gangbrautum, notkun landsvæða (landuse tagið) og fleira sem hægt er að álykta út frá loftmyndunum. Ef ykkur grunar að eitthvað sé rangt en skortir upplýsingar til að laga það, merkið villuna með OpenStreetBugs. Húsnúmeramerking og POI söfnun er í gangi af minni hálfu en það myndi varla saka ef þið gætuð bætt við því sem þið vitið af nú þegar. Með kveðju, Svavar Kjarrval ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Ég sendi skilaboð á þá sem ekki hafa enn samþykkt Contributor Terms
2012/3/26 Björgvin Ragnarsson nifgr...@gmail.com: Listann yfir notendur fann ég hér: http://odbl.poole.ch/iceland-20120213-20120321-poly.html þið þurfið því ekki að ónáða þá líka, Hvernig gekk þetta? Ég býst við að þú eigir við í gegnum OSM skilaboðakerfið, ég er með upplýsingar um aðrar leiðir til að hafa samband við nokkra af þessum notendum. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
[Talk-is] Hjólavefsjá.is lénið rennur út 16. ágúst
Á ekki Reykjavíkurborg að vera halda þessu við?
$ parallel -k 'whois {} | grep expire' ::: hjolavefsja.is
xn--hjlavefsj-81a4q.is
expires: August 16 2011
expires: August 16 2011
___
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[OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Back in 2006 I wrote the following when it still wasn't clear what the ODbL acceptance terms would be like: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 22:10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If someone presents me with a boolean Do you allow relicensing under the ODbL I'll have to say no because some of my edits are derived from CC-BY-SA data I don't have permission to license (and I probably can't even recall what all of it is). Which'll mean nuking 50% of all the data in Iceland most of which I've touched at some point. I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). What are my options in that situation? Do I either have to see all my work removed because I can't account for 100% of my edits or lie on the ODbL acceptance form? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Leaflet - a new open source JavaScript library for maps by CloudMade
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 14:34, Vladimir Agafonkin vagafon...@cloudmade.com wrote: I'm Leaflet lead developer at CloudMade and I'll be happy to hear what you think and answer any questions about the library here. :) This library is very heavy on the GPU (as opposed to google maps), which makes it really slow in e.g. vmware without GPU acceleration, and presumably on platforms that don't have a GPU. I've seen this before e.g. with some jQuery animations, which are really slow without a GPU. OpenLayers and Google Maps don't suffer from the same problem. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-is] 'Nýr' mapper og Síðumúlinn
2011/4/24 Thorhallur Sverrisson t...@toti.is: Takk fyrir Setbergið, það var alveg ómppað fyrir utan Hamrabergið svo það var upplagt að byrja þar, enda bý ég einmitt þar. Ég byrjaði á því að hafa 'turning-circle' á endanum á hverri götu, en það er hálfgert turningcircle í hverjum enda, en það leit svo hrikalega illa út á kortinu að ég tók það út. Þetta var fín æfing í heildar ferlinu, frá tracking að 'kláruðu' mappi. Ekki henda út góðum gögnum bara vegna þess að default teikningin á kortinu sýnir hlutina illa. Það eru mörg önnur forrit sem nota gögnin sem nota turning circle, og/eða sýna þá rétt. Mun betra að setja inn rétt gögn, og láta svo laga þessa bögga. Það er opin böggur vegna þessarar turning circle teiknunar í mapnik. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Local meetups in Iceland
2011/2/28 Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de: Sorry that I post in english but I can't write I your language :/ I guess some of you might notice that I created a map of local user groups http://usergroups.openstreetmap.de using a bot crawling templates out of the wikipages http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:User_group I already tried to get in contact for the most nations but there seem to be no local group that meets regular in Iceland, or? Hi, there have been a few meet-ups, but nothing regular. Just one-off's. But I haven't checked recently (and now live abroad), maybe someone else can confirm/deny that. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Garðabæjargögnin á OSM sniði
2010/12/29 Daníel Gunnarsson danielgunn...@gmail.com: Ég er þeirrar skoðunar að útlínurnar sjálfar eigi einnig heima í grunninum. Sammála, það var umræða um þetta hérna og nokkur dæmi: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/%C3%86var%20Arnfj%C3%B6r%C3%B0%20Bjarmason/diary/8651 ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [OSM-talk] NOTICE: Scheduled Maintenance - Tuesday Morning
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 15:24, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: Please copy this to local lists as appropriate. With announcements like these could you please send mail like this to local-conta...@openstreetmap.org in the future. That's what it's for. I only found out about this because someone who had happened to be monitoring talk@openstreetmap.org forwarded this to talk-is, but if it had been sent to local-contacts I and others would have spotted it and forwarded it. Thanks. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-is] Fasteignaskrá
2010/12/6 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Var að hringja í Fasteignaskrá og vildi forvitnast hvort við gætum fengið GPS hnit úr staðfangaskrá fyrir allt landið en fékk það svar að það myndi kosta um 200 þúsund krónur. Þess vegna datt mér í hug hvort við gætum reynt að fá gögnin ókeypis og án ósanngjarnra skilyrða. Ein leið sem mér datt í hug væri að biðja formlega um afhendingu gagnanna án endurgjalds (eða gegn sanngjörnu úrvinnslugjaldi). Ef beiðninni yrði neitað gætum við sent stjórnsýslukæru í von um að hún yrði samþykkt. Það er engin trygging fyrir árangri en mér finnst að við ættum allavega að reyna. Hljómar vel. Ef við myndum borga fyrir þessi gögn í dag (þ.e. þessar 200.000 kr) myndu gögnin vera samhæf OSM skilmálunum. Þ.e. er þetta eingöngu úrvinnslugjald, eða er þetta afnotagjald fyrir gögn háð ákveðnum skilmálum? Kosturinn yrði sá að við fengjum GPS hnit fyrir (nær) öll hús á landinu sem gæti sparað okkur mikla vinnu í framtíðinni, gætum áætlað staðsetningu ómældra gatna (betur) og flýtt fyrir því að fólk noti OSM Garmin kortið frekar en það keypta. Það væri frábært að fá þessi hnit. Það var svipað import á húsnúmerum í Færeyjum sem hefur hjálpað mikið til. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Gögn frá Garðabæ
2010/12/3 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Svo virðist vera að ogr2osm ráði ekki við skrána sem ég fékk. Einhverjar aðrar leiðir sem ykkur dettur í hug? Kannski spurja á aðal osm-talk listanum eða osm-imports hvort einhver veit hvernig á að breyta þessu? ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Bing loftmyndir komnar!
2010/12/1 Daníel Gunnarsson danielgunn...@gmail.com: Hversu langt eigum við að ganga í því að tagga gögnin með source=Bing t.d. þegar gata er nú þegar til staðar rakin eftir gps ferli? Kannski er þá best að setja source=Bing á breytingarsettið, annars sést í sögunni að source=Bing var ekki alltaf til staðar, þannig það mun vera sýnilegt að þetta var ekki upphaflega rekið þaðan. Ég var að reyna að teikna upp nokkur hús í Þingholltunum. Svo þegar ég ætla að fara að upploada breytingunum þá kvartar josm undan því að ég sé með línur sem að overlappa. Húsin liggja upp að hvoru öðru, sjá meðfylgjandi skjáskot. Hvernig á að taka á þessu? Með því að hunsa þessa viðvörun, hún er ágætis viðmið til að hafa í huga, en er aðallega hugsuð til að sýna vegi sem eru ekki tengdir. Þegar maður er með byggingar / landamæri o.s.f. er ekkert að því að hafa svona overlap. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] Bing loftmyndir komnar!
2010/11/30 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Þetta kemur ekki fram sem möguleiki í WMS og ég finn ekki neitt nánar um þetta á openstreetmap wiki eða umræðunni. Hvernig fékkst þú þetta upp í JOSM? Ég vil byrja! *spenntur* Thetta er ekki opinberlega i JOSM vegna thessa: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2010-November/005056.html En thad er haegt ad nota http://wms.latlon.org/, s.s. setja: http://wms.latlon.org/?layers=bing; Sem URL fyrir nyjan WMS layer i JOSM. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [OSM-talk] PBF and perl?
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:20, Gary68 g...@gary68.de wrote: just browsed the PBF wiki page and svn and didn't find any perl support. is there any module out there to read PBF files? Yes, see Google::ProtocolBuffers on CPAN[1]. 1. Found by entering protocol buffer into search.cpan.org. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-is] OSM beiðni fyrir bæjarstjórn H afnarfjarðar
2010/11/10 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Fundurinn gekk ágætlega (hann var allavega ekki tilgangslaus). Þau eru tilbúin til að láta mig fá miðlínur gatna og stíga, hæðarlínur og staðsetningu húsnúmera og götuheiti. Þetta er allt í AutoCAD (*.dwg) en þau geta umbreytt í Shapefile og MicroStation sniðin. Afhendingin yrði gjaldfrjáls nema þau hefji að rukka almennt fyrir afhendingu slíkra gagna. Gallinn er hins vegar sá að þau vilja ekki að gögnin fari lengra en til eins aðila því þau vilja vita hverjir hafa þau undir höndunum. Þau vilja ekki að ég (sem tek við kortinu) verði dreifingaraðili. Þeim er hins vegar sama um afleidd verk af gögnunum á meðan frumgögnin fara ekki lengra. Þess vegna stakk ég upp á því að ég gæti gert rammasamning við bæinn og séð um að vinna úr þessu. Það sem færi inn á OSM væri afleitt verk og bryti því ekki í bága við samninginn. Frumgögnin væru bundin við mig en þau myndu allavega nýtast OSM. Frábært, mér skilst að Shapefile væri best upp á notkun í OpenStreetMap, það er yfirleitt verið að breyta úr því sniði. En að fá þetta á AutoCAD líka væri gott upp á að þú værir með frumgögnin. Spurning að fá þá eins og Reykjavík til að fara inn á OpenStreetMap vefinn og samþykkja contributor terms? Ætti að vera einfaldast að höndla lagahliðina þannig. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [Talk-is] OSM beiðni fyrir bæjarstjórn H afnarfjarðar
2010/11/10 Svavar Kjarrval sva...@kjarrval.is: Miðað við hugmyndina mína um rammasamning yrði óþarfi að samþykkja contributer terms. Lagalega séð væri ég höfundur afleiddu gagnanna og með því að senda þau inn væri ég að samþykkja skilmála OSM hvort sem er. Hafnarfjarðarbær er ekki að rukka fyrir afhendingu gagnanna og jafnvel þeir sem selja kort þurfa ekki að greiða neitt fyrir leyfið eða gögnin. Af hverju ætti það þá að vera vandamál fyrir OSM? (A ensku lyklabordi) Fyrirgefdu, eg las thetta ekki nogu vandlega. Thad hljomar eins og thu sert med thetta allt coverad. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
[OSM-talk] Wanted: a live-edit viewing thingalabong
I have a logfile of lat/lon coordinates alll over the world that I want to tail, feed to a webservice and view in a browser. I thought I could use some of the existing live-edit thingy. So far I've found http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/owl_viewer/ (aimed at local) and http://searchengineland.com/new-real-time-google-maps-edits-in-new-edits-viewer-13220 which is down at the moment. Is there something existing out there that I can steal and hook up to some trivial AJAX service that'll zoom around the map as new edits come in for some whoo factor? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for additional Mapnik power=tower icons
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 15:54, John Goodman j...@qlam.com wrote: I have yet not added an enhancement ticket -- wanted to see what people thought. I think it looks much better. Please file a ticked, and a patch against the current style would be great. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 14:18, Gleb Smirnoff gleb...@glebius.int.ru wrote: On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 02:50:22PM +0100, Dave F. wrote: D the fact the road is a winter one, is an important thing that should be D marked on map. D D http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/surface:winter_road D D This type of tag is based on subjective opinions which is bad D information to put in OSM. No. It is not based on subjective opinion. Winter road is an official status of a road in Russia. It is the way it is marked on other maps. The road is officially closed, when it starts to melt. And it is officially serviced during winter. Please refer to wikipedia article. Winter road is not a subjective opinion. There have been discussions on and off about seasonal roads / opening times. See e.g.: http://www.mail-archive.com/talk@openstreetmap.org/msg11274.html There are more like that, but I couldn't find any with a quick search. Anyway, since it's an official Winter road I recommend just tagging it as: XYZ:winter_road = yes Wher XYZ is the acronym or name of the Russian classification agency. But we probably want some sort of genaral scheme in the long term, e.g. in some countries there aren't winter roads but rather just roads with different degrees of guaranteed maintenance. Some roads might e.g. be plowed once a day in the winter, and others once a week. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal: winter roads
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 19:23, Dmitri Lebedev siberia.acca...@gmail.com wrote: I want to support this guy's proposal. Then support it by starting to map it. Really, there's no reason to get formal approval for tags. Just write down on some Russian wikipage that winter roads are `winter_road=yes` or something like that. Then just use it, and if it's found to be lacking later it's easy to find all those tags and change them. Mapping is the bottleneck, not coming up with a perfect tagging scheme. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] spot imagery for osm tracing
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 12:05, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: I stumbled into a blog post regarding the french osm community was given permission to trace from Spot imagery. Is this for France only coverage? Probably yes. I asked the same question for Iceland once, but it seems that SPOT is an aggregate of differently licensed data. So what applies to France doesn't for the rest of the world. But maybe someone else can correct me on that, I'm not sure. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] spot imagery for osm tracing
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 14:06, Jean-Francois (Jeff) Faudi jeanfrancois.fa...@gmail.com wrote: I am talking on behalf of Spot Image. At this stage, we are only making a test over France. As soon as possible, we will try to evaluate the mutual benefits for Spot Image and OpenStreetMap in order to foster an extended collaboration. Here is the SPOtMaps page in English : http://www.spotimage.com/web/en/1285-spotmaps.php And I just want to correct the spelling for the source tag : source=Cnes / Spot Image Hi Jeff. I was wondering what the SPOT-5 coverage was over Iceland. It's not listed on that page, in the KML file or in the country list. But according to this: http://www.lmi.is/pages/fjarkonnun/spot-5-myndir-keyptar-2008-og-2009/ And: http://www.google.com/search?q=iceland+site:spotimage.com There's at least some coverage. But I assume it's really sparse or in low resolution and is thus is not listed on the main listing? Anyway, if you're looking for a country that you probably have minimal commercial gain anyway and that doesn't have any imagery already (except for Landsat) the mappers in Iceland would love to get access to SPOT-5 for tracing. Thanks for your time. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Countries that have NOT had any imports?
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 21:41, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: I am wondering which countries have actually _not_ seen any imports so far? Aside from Ásbrú (http://osm.org/go/e...@ty5m-) and buildings around the University of Iceland (http://osm.org/go/e0UtNVRI--) Iceland has had no imports or tracking from imagery aside from the PGS coastline import, and some tracing from NASA Landsat. We did import some ourFootprints data, but that was more like getting a donation of GPS traces. It was all manually merged with the existing data. We're currently working on getting some data from the government though. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM and MapQuest [was Hurricane hits MapQuest]
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 23:28, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Ed Avis wrote: In general, I think our goal must be to make OSM a suitable replacement for Google Maps, and to do so as quickly as possible. [...] So we need to find a way to prioritize our efforts -1 on both. Not saying that you mustn't prioritize your efforts - by all means do! - but we? We the people in this project who are interested in mapping things that people are looking for, if you want to prioritize differently that's fine. But as the Haiti effort shows there's lots of people here willing to work on areas that have a clear need expressed by a lot of people. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 16:20, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Sep 29, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? I believe it is http://www.usertesting.com/ So, a Windows only client: http://www.usertesting.com/popups/ApplicantFAQs.aspx ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] In what direction should OSM go?
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:58, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Peter Körner wrote: Imported data is dead data - there's no one that feels responsible for it. Imports can kill community and give newcomers the feeling that there's nothing more to be done. Imports *can* help osm but they can also *hurt* osm, because osm is about people, not data. +1 Instead of importing data, data should be mixed in at the rendering stage. Importing data can be acceptable if the original source has ceased to update the data *and* OSMers have a good chance to improve the data, but even then there is a risk of damaging the community or preventing one from forming. Imports run the danger of sacrificing the medium- and long-term success for short-term gains. Importing data is, in my eyes, almost never acceptable if the original source is still maintaining the data (because keeping stuff in sync is practically impossible and it is better to simply not have that data in OSM and rely on the original source exclusively), or if imported data cannot be maintained by mappers (either because there are none, or because the data is not visible on the ground). There may be some exceptions where e.g. importing a basic road grid can kick-start development, or where having the data in OSM to align other data with it is extremely usable, but these are really exceptions. The problem with mixing it at the rendering stage is that it only works for self-contained datasets like contours, but most of our imports get *merged* to existing data, their tags updated etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] how to see lat lon on map
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:17, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: Am 29.09.2010 13:12, schrieb Frank Fesevur: Doesn't work... at least not for this coordinate: N 52° 03.595 E 004° 16.983 This is not lat/lon but Minutes of arc. It seems, Nominatim, our search engine, is not capable of this. Actually that's done in geocoder_controller.rb in the rails port, not nominatim. Support for minutes of arc could be easily added to it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] In what direction should OSM go?
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 13:44, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Of course, if keeping stuff in sync is practically impossible, a good import is probably going to have to be manual (if you can't keep stuff in sync, and the data is in a form which is already commonly used for non-imported data, then you can't avoid redundancies in the import). This is largely a problem with our tools, not something that can't be fixed. Distributed version control systems already solve the problem of merging foreign data where your copy of it has moved since the original import, there's no reason for why we couldn't make keeping imports up-to-date significantly easier using similar techniques. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] In what direction should OSM go?
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:59, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 13:44, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: Of course, if keeping stuff in sync is practically impossible, a good import is probably going to have to be manual (if you can't keep stuff in sync, and the data is in a form which is already commonly used for non-imported data, then you can't avoid redundancies in the import). This is largely a problem with our tools, not something that can't be fixed. Distributed version control systems already solve the problem of merging foreign data where your copy of it has moved since the original import, there's no reason for why we couldn't make keeping imports up-to-date significantly easier using similar techniques. I don't know of any distributed version control systems which do anything remotely close to this. It seems to me to be an AI-hard problem in the general case (*). There are, of course, tools which can do this in specialized cases, but that's where the if in the if keeping stuff in sync is practically impossible comes into place. (*) In fact, I'd say that anyone who can devise a general tool which can merge all the different foreign databases together has thereby rendered OSM obsolete. I *don't* mean that they could do it *automatically*. Distributed version control systems don't do that either, you always need a human to look at the result to see if it's sane. I mean that we don't have *anything* currently that can take: 1) A foreign database as it was X years ago, each object having some UID. 2) A foreign database as it is *now*, each object having corresponding UID's. 3) The OSM data imported from the #1 with the foreign UID's as tags, along with the new updated #2 database. And present users with some object-by-object comparison of things that changed, and offer them a way to resolve it using an OSM editor. If we had a tool like this the problem of imports going stale would be largely solved, since even if you have 10.000 changes from year to year in the foreign database that's not a problem if you can efficiently merge those changes. We can't do that now, the best I've seen people do is something like the TIGER upgrade where areas that haven't been touched *at all* are being upgraded, but there's no interactive upgrade mechanism for areas that have been touched, but where the TIGER data may be better than what we currently have. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:34, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Those people fill out a form and are invited later to use some simple online screen capturing software while asked to do some simple tasks and this is where you come in. What screen capturing software package is it? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Measuring the OpenStreetMap Economy
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 15:05, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: When I see announcements flying around like MapQuests $1M commitment to OSM, or CloudMades $12M VC round it begs the question of how big is the OSM economy? This is somewhat orthogonal to your question, but I think a much interesting question to ask is what's the overall economic impact of OpenStreetMap? The money that companies like MapQuests and CloudMade are making is always going to by a tiny fraction of what OpenStreetMap is saving people who would otherwise not have gotten their job done. The social and economic impact that Wikipedia had was to turn situations where you'd previously have had to ask an expert, buy Britannica, or go to the library. Similarly, how much of the existing market is being displaced by OpenStreetMap, and how much is being created? I bet it's a whole lot more than $20 million. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can i use different aerial imagery
On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 17:04, Charalampos Alexopoulos alba...@otenet.gr wrote: Greek government have publish free aerial imagery much better than those from Yahoo.Is it possible to use it as background with Potlatch? Hi. There's a lot of aerial imagery (e.g. Google's) that we'd love to use, but the imagery has to be under a license which allows for its use with OpenStreetMap. Is that the case with the imagery the greek government has published? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-is] LUKR gögnin komin staðan á því máli
Hér er smá uppfærsla á LUKR + OpenStreetMap málinu, ég sendi þetta á OpenStreetMap póstlistann fyrir Ísland, Pálma hjá Reykjavík og á nokkra aðra: Björgvin Ragnarsson tók við diski með LUKR gögnum í dag sem við erum með leyfi til að nota í OpenStreetMap. Það var líka ritað um þetta í dagbók borgarstjóra: http://www.facebook.com/dagbok.borgarstjora (kann einhver að tengja *bara* í viðkomandi þráð þarna á Facebook?) Hérna eru gögnin eins og þau komu frá borginni: http://github.com/avar/lukr-osm-donation-2010-09-18 Og hérna er conversion á þeim í WGS84 sem *virkaði ekki*: http://github.com/avar/lukr-osm-donation-2010-09-18/raw/convert/gonguleidir_LUKR_170910-wgs84.osm Ég breytti hnitunum úr ISNET93 í WGS84. En þetta er líkast til í sérhnitakerfi sem LUKR notar, ég veit ekki hvernig á að breyta því almennilega, en það fylgir með gonguleidir_LUKR_170910.prj skrá með vörpuninni. Það þarf bara að tala rétt við gdal/proj4 til að fá þetta í gegn, aðstoð með það velkomin. En það er hægt að skoða þessa OSM skrá í t.d. JOSM og sjá circa hvernig þetta lítur út. Þessi gögn eru við fyrstu skoðun bara stígar og gangstéttir í Reykjavík, s.s. engir bílvegir, byggingar og annað. Ég veit ekki hvernig þessar umræður fóru hjá borginni/LUKR með það hvaða hluta af þessum gögnum við getum fengið (bætti Pálma hjá Reykjavík á CC), s.s. hvort það sé um það að ræða að við fáum stærri hluta af grunninum. Það væri mun betra fyrir almenna notkun á LUKR gögnum bæði fyrir okkur og aðra ef þetta væri stærri hluti af grunninum. Það er svoldið vesen að sameina OSM og LUKR gögnin hjá okkur ef þetta eru bara gangstéttir, því við þurfum þá að klæða þá utan um vegi sem eru þegar til. Svo þarf líka að spá í hvernig við ætlum að uppfæra þessi gögn ef og þegar þau fara inn. Það væri leiðinlegt að setja þetta inn á þann máta að við endum með úrelt gögn eftir 1 ár. Svo er annað, ég fæ ekki betur séð en að skv. þessari yfirlýsingu sem var skrifað undir: http://github.com/avar/lukr-osm-donation-2010-09-18/blob/convert/Scan.JPG Sé ósamhæf frjálsum leyfum eins og OpenStreetMap er undir, því þarna er nefnt að niðurfelling gjalds sé bundið við OpenStreetMap verkefnið. En þar sem OpenStreetMap er að búa til frjálsan grunn sem hver sem er má nota í tengslum við hvaða verkefni sem er. Svo er líka spurning hvort með ODbL leyfinu sem OpenStreetMap er að fara nota að það sé ekki hægt að koma því þannig fyrir að LUKR og aðrir geti svo tekið þessi gögn aftur út úr OSM eftir einhverjar breytingar og notað þau. Einfaldasta lausnin á öllum þessum leyfismálum væri að fá einhvern sem hefur umboð til að gefa okkur gögnin til að skrá sig á openstreetmap.org, samþykkja contributor terms skilmálana, og hlaða inn gögnum. Þessir skilmálar sjást hérna: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms Og voru nýlega skrifaðir af lögfræðingum á vegum OSM einmitt fyrir svona aðstæður. Svona í lokin: Það er margt sem þarf að gera og laga, og þá kannski helst samkiptin á milli okkar allra. Allt-í-allt er þetta alveg frábært framtak hjá Reykjavíkurborg og LUKR sem ég vona að heppnist sem best. Vonandi náum við að koma þessu öllu í gegn þannig að allir málsaðilar hagnist á þessu, og að þetta verði fordæmisgefandi og ryðji veginn fyrir opin gögn á Íslandi. ___ Talk-is mailing list Talk-is@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-is
Re: [OSM-talk] End of road for JOSM on OS X for ppc
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:41, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/9/16 Arigead captain.dea...@gmail.com: Renaud MICHEL wrote: Le mardi 14 septembre 2010 à 16:32, Arigead a écrit : Don't think that changing the OS to Ubuntu will make any difference. I've not checked but if you do change to Ubuntu you'll still be trying to download the Java version for Linux on PPC. I don't think that will be supported by sun. But like I say I've not checked. The latest Java is only supported on Intel 86 Arch as far as I remember. If you want the official java from Sun (which doesn't even exists anymore), no. But openjdk can be compiled on other architecture. Debian has it for alpha amd64 armel i386 ia64 mips mipsel powerpc sparc, see http://packages.debian.org/lenny/openjdk-6-jre so ubuntu should too I tried that for something else but unfortunately the Java6 source was trying to run features which were not implemented by the open source JRE's. Still you're right that an open JRE might implement enough of the spec to get JOSM off the ground. Interesting, I run lastest JOSM with OpenJDK without any big fuss on Ubuntu 10.04. It should run on Mac OS X. It should, but Mac OS X users in general seem to be more interested in demanding that Apple do things for them instead of helping themselves, so apps like that don't get ported. Actually I'd be willing to bet that compiling OpenJDK 6 on OSX PPC against X11.app is a relatively trivial matter if you apply the patches from FreeBSD, but probably nobody has tried that yet, and even if they did OSX users feel icky when they have to run anything under X11.app. *sigh* ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Exceeded API bandwidth limit, now what?
On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 19:02, Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote: On Sep 14, 2010, at 12:06 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Michal Migurski wrote: I'm downloading London, in small sections. I just exceeded my API bandwidth limit. Get http://download.geofabrik.de/osm/europe/great_britain/england.osm.bz2 then do bzcat england.osm.bz2 | time osmosis --rx - --bb left=-.6 bottom=51.3 right=.4 top=51.7 --wx london.osm (or whatever London is for you). Thanks guys. I understand about the extracts, I've used them extensively for years. I'm experimenting with a way to get at smaller areas of OSM data (generally city-sized) for a possible update to http://tiledrawer.com, and I'm hoping to understand how to both work within the API limitations and be able to piecemeal together a town-sized area without requiring end-users to deal with bzip files or osm2pgsql on their own. The code I'm developing is here: http://github.com/migurski/TileStache/blob/osm-mirror/TileStache/Goodies/Providers/MirrorOSM.py It's a provider class for Tilestache that mirrors OSM on a tile-by-tile basis. Is there any interest here in publishing the OSM API via tile-like URLs? For example, being able to make a request like this to pull a chunk of bounded XML cached out of the OSM API: http://tile.openstreetmap.org/14/2627/6331.xml note xml on the end The advantages with this should be plainly obvious: a source of data that's trivially cacheable, on the order of hours-to-days old, and available for specific areas of the world, without the massive download and parse overhead of OSM extracts. Have you looked into the TRAPI? It does that on a z12-basis, it could probably be extended for bigger/smaller requests. Anyway, the use case for this sort of thing is much smaller than you'd think, because: * Splitting the tiles makes a lot of things like routing / clicking on a complete way hard. * Applications that used this would need to suck down a lot of XML to get the small subset of the data that they want, having a database that serves up custom data is much more efficient. But on the upside it's simple and scalable with proxies. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] End of road for JOSM on OS X for ppc
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 09:39, Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.dk wrote: Yesterday I tried to upgrade JOSM on my trusty old Apple Powerbook G4. However, JOSM now needs Java 6SE, which is _not_ supported on OSX version 10.5 (Leopard). If you own a Mac with an Intel CPU, you can upgrade to OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard), but that is not an option for machines using the PPC architecture. I had to downgrade JOSM again to version 3376, which is the end-of-the-line version for Mac OS X running on a PPC chip. So, if you own a machine like that, don't upgrade JOSM! One thing you could do to run newer versions of JOSM is to install Ubuntu or Debian on the machine and dual-boot it. A big JOSM editing session can take hours anyway, so dual-booting to edit isn't that costly. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Girona videos for Friday now on-line
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 23:45, David Carmean d...@halibut.com wrote: Quick cuts from the venue a/v system's recordings are now available here: http://vimeo.com/album/932606 Saturday and Sunday videos will appear gradually over the next couple of weeks, as we have time to work on them. Great. Thanks a lot for this. Is there some overview of the talks (maybe the schedule?) that could link to this? The titles as they are now don't give much of an idea of what each one is about. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-is] Varðandi merkingar á hjólalei ðum
2010/8/30 Arni Davidsson arni...@gmail.com: 2010/8/29 Karl Georg ka...@ekkert.org Á meðan Routing tólin Gúddera síga taggaða highway=path sem hjólaleið þá er það fín skilgreining á milli hjólreiðabrautar og hjólaleiðar í almenna stíga/götu kerfinu. Það hlýtur að vera mikilvægt að setja footway tag á almenna stíga þar sem það á við. Skokkar og göngufólk hljóta að njóta góðs af því. Ég er frekar sáttur við þessar skilgreiningar á stígum sem fram hafa komið. Væri ekki ráð að búa til Presets fyrir þessar skilgreiningar ásamt wikisíðu með ljósmyndum og guidelines af hvernig ætti að tagga leiðirnar. Nöfn á presetin gæti hljómað svona: (Ég tek það fram að ég er glænýr notandi og þekki ekki virkni presets fullkomnlega) Stígur,malbik Stígur Möl (gæti átt við heiðmörk og fl útivistarsvæði) Hjólreiðabraut Gangstéttir Hjólreiðarein Hjólavísar Persónulega skil ég ekki merkingu orðsins Hjólavísir en það er væntanlega bara orðaforðaskortur hjá mér. Mér dettur í hug Almenn akbraut ef að ég túlka þessa skilgreiningu rétt. Er þetta ekki basicly þeir staðir þar sem hjólreiðamenn kjósa eða þurfa að hjóla á götunni? Svona reiðhjólaumferð eins og hefur td. stóraukist við Hafnarfjarðarveginn Ásamt ýmissa tenginga á milli annara hjólaleiða í gegnum íbúðargötur, yfir bílastæði, gatnamót og fl. Hjólavísar eru útskýrðir hér: http://www.lhm.is/lhm/pistlar/299-hjr-reykjavr- og hér http://www.lhm.is/lhm/pistlar/236-hjolavisar-nyjung-a-goetum-reykjavikur Þeir eru nú komnir á Einarsnesi, Suðurgötu sunnan Hringbrautar, Lanholtsvegi og Laugarásvegi og nú síðast við Hverfisgötuna í tilraunaverkefni umhverfis- og samgöngusviðs Reykjavíkurborgar. Er hægt að skilgreina götur sem þegar eru inni sem hjólavísa? Eða eru þetta leiðir sem við ættum að teikna upp á nýtt ? Skiptir það máli þegar það kemur að virkni hjolavefsjáa? það væri ekki vitlaust að finna svo nokkur vel valin aukatögg til að auðvelda áframhaldandi úrvinnslu (td. fyrir hjólavefsjá) Ég veit ekki hvernig þessar vefsjár sem eru að routa hjólaleiðir skilgreina öryggi leiðanna geta tögg eða stöðluð preset hjápað þar ? Það væri kanski hægt að gefa leiðunum einkun eftir hversu hjólavænar þær eru (A leið B leið og C leið?). Aðkoma að gatnamótum, bílaumferð, stígabreidd, útsýni og brekkur geta spilað þarna inní. Ég útbjó drög að flokkun gatna með tilliti til þæginda til hjólreiða í 6 flokka. Ef hægt væri að tagga götur í flokka A til F eftir því hversu þægilegt er að hjóla þær yrði til einskonar gæðaflokkun hjólreiðaleiða eftir götum. Það væri þá líka hægt að setja einhverja flokkun við gangstéttir, útivistarstíga, hjólreiðabrautir, hjólreiðareinar og götur með hjólavísa. Þá mætti líka ímynda sér að hægt væri að flokka leiðirnar eftir breidd stíga og hættum sem hafa verið færðar innn við þá, s.s. blindhorn, blindbeygjur, hálkustaði o.s.frv. Drög að flokkun gatna: A. flokkur. Þægileg til hjólreiða. Hæg umferð ca. 30 km. Lítil umferð. Ráðandi staða þægileg. Akrein 3,5 m breið. Dæmi botnlangar. B. flokkur. Þægileg til hjólreiða en meiri umferð og ráðandi staða óþægilegri. Hæg umferð ca. 30 km. Meiri umferð. Þarf oft að taka ráðandi stöðu í umferð vegna aðstæðna (þrengingar, hliðargötur, útkeyrslur, bílastæði í götu). Akrein 3,5 m breið. Dæmi Hverfisgata. C. flokkur. Þægileg til hjólreiða en meiri umferð og meiri hraði. Ökuhraði um 50 km. Breidd götu leyfir víkjandi stöðu hjólreiðamanns og framúrakstur bíla án þess að þeir fari yfir miðlínu eða þá að umferð er lítil. Akrein yfir 4,2 m breið. Dæmi Suðurgata sunnan Hringbrautar hæri akrein. Kársnesbraut í austurátt. D. flokkur. Minna þægileg til hjólreiða (einkum á annatíma). Ökuhraði um 50 km. Breidd götu leyfir ekki framúrakstur bíla án þess að þeir fari yfir miðlínu og umferð er nokkuð þétt. Akrein 3,5 m breið. Dæmi Bústaðavegur. E. flokkur. Þægileg til hjólreiða en hentar frekar þjálfuðum hjólreiðamönnum. Hröð umferð 60 km og yfir. Bílar geta tekið framúr án þess að fara yfir akreina línu. Fáar að- og fráreinar og/eða fullnægjandi hönnun og pláss. Breidd akreinar 4,2-4,8 m eða fullnægjandi vegöxl eða öryggissvæði. Dæmi Reykjanesbraut endurbyggð sunnan/vestan Hafnarfjarðar. F. flokkur. Frekar óþægileg til hjólreiða en getur hentað þjálfuðum hjólreiðamönnum. Hröð umferð 60 km og yfir. Bílar geta ekki tekið framúr án þess að fara yfir akreina línu. Margar að- og fráreinar og/eða ekki fullnægjandi hönnun og pláss. Breidd akreinar 3,5 m og ekki fullnægjandi vegöxl eða öryggissvæði. Dæmi Miklabraut, Kringlumýrarbraut o.fl. Þetta hljómar ágætlega, kannski ekki sem aðal flokkunarkerfi (þar sem við viljum enn highway=*), heldur gæti þetta verið flokkunarkerfi ofan á það. Þú getur sett endalaust mörg tögg á vegi og aðra hluti í OpenStreetMap þannig það er um að gera að gera eitthvað svona ef það er vilji til að halda þessu við. OpenStreetMap er voðalegt þeir sem gera hlutina ráða, þannig að ef þér finnst þetta góð hugmynd endilega splæstu þessu inn á
Re: [OSM-talk] Community vs. Licensing
On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 17:35, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: However, I have spoken with Steve Coast, founder of the project, and I know that he is dead-set against public domain OSM data. Thus, the second best thing to do, if you're going to threaten to sue infringers, is a license that clearly spells out what portions of the data they can use freely, and what uses are considered infringing. The ODbL does a good job of lining that out, and so I recommend that you relicense to it. That reads like SteveC's personally against it, therefore we have to do something else. I'd hope the legal process isn't that cabal like in practice. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SotM.us videos
On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 21:31, David Carmean d...@halibut.com wrote: I'm beginning to edit/encode/upload the session videos from SotM.us 2010 http://vimeo.com/channels/128913 I'm tweeting each upload to #sotmus. Takes a few hours to edit/upload each session so expect two or three per day. That's great. What was the status of the non-US SOTM videos, are those up somewhere yet? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SotM.us videos
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 19:17, pavithran pavithra...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 August 2010 00:39, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: That's great. What was the status of the non-US SOTM videos, are those up somewhere yet? The last I heard there was some lack of volunteers to edit and time frame the videos . Any reason they can't just be uploaded in raw format somewhere? Is lack of bandwidth a concern? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hypothetical question about objects that will not be relicensed
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 21:48, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: (posted here rather than on legal-talk because it's at its core a question about editing standards) Let's say I'm mapping an area and I notice an existing way that I know will not survive the relicensing process. (Part of the hypothetical situation is that one can be sure about this.) Were I to add tags to it, my work would be lost once we switch to ODBL. So would I be wrong to delete it and replace it with a new way, even if the new one is not as good as the old tainted one? We don't even know if we're going to switch licenses yet, so don't do that. Replacing data like this is best done on a project-wide basis later on, once we can assess the extent of the damage. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Human readable contributor terms ready and waiting for approval
Back in May I pointed out the need for human readable contributor terms. That resulted in some discussion and a human readable version of the terms drafted by the LWG: http://github.com/avar/openstreetmap-website/compare/master...topic/human-readable-contributor-terms However, those terms still have't been added to the website because someone from the legal team hasn't given that the go-ahead, I've been in contact with Mike Collinson about this, but he's very busy. This is how the human readable terms look: http://i.imgur.com/FjHU9.png And this is the patch to implement that: http://github.com/avar/openstreetmap-website/compare/master...topic/human-readable-contributor-terms The human readable terms are also translatable, so users that don't speak English legalese will be able to understand them. Can someone else in the LWG give this the go-ahead? I don't mean to rush this, but these terms are being read by a lot of users these days, and they're being asked to agree to them. It would be nice if more people were able to understand them when doing so. Thanks. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tracing vs Import
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 08:43, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: So I'm now contemplating the much simpler path of rendering the data and then tracing. But before I do that I really want to be sure that there isn't a better way of doing this. Does anyone have any suggestions? You could import it as .osm but give it tags that aren't rendered / known by anything. Then slowly move that over / delete / add data. I did that for a large import in Iceland with great success. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Attribution of OSM on nearmap.om?
On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 08:53, Ben Last ben.l...@nearmap.com wrote: should typically != must :) But the key point is that we attribute OSM with the same prominence as we do any other supplier. You'll note that there is no copyright message relating to the photomaps on the main page (for us, or any supplier). I find this attribution to be completely reasonable. The Legal FAQ is just a FAQ, but the only thing that applies in the CC-BY-SA, which just includes clauses like reasonable to the medium. Map - Information - Copyrights and credits is no different than e.g.: 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap 2. File - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cambridge-Openstreetmap-08-06-13.svg 3. Look at Permission. Having a floating OpenLayers attribution element in the lower right corner is one way to do it, but it's not the only way, and people that don't pick that particular way aren't doing anything wrong as far as I can tell. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments
One thing I found unfortunate is that when we switched to API 0.6 to support changeset comments we also limited the length of values to 255 characters. So because of that you end up with really long run-on sentences like that to describe large changes making it hard to write them and to understand them. It would be much nicer if I could Write a short summary of the changes I'm making, like this. Then go on to elaborate a bit on what I did, why I did it, and what sources I used etc. Perhaps explaining how I'm not really sure about that one track by the sports stadium, due to the bad GPS reception I had there. Sometimes my changes in Git turn into little mini blog-posts about the problem I was solving, it's unfortunate that I can't provide similar details on OpenStreetMap, at least it's 255 characters, not 255 bytes like on Wikipedia. Anyway, since we're making pleas, here's one of my own: Can the maintainers of JOSM please get rid of the silly feature that makes changeset comments manditory? It results in a lot of garbage like the ..., some mapping, fixed stuff, or none of your business examples which Frederik cited. I'd rather have history with no comments at all than expending mental energy on comments that look like they were copy/pasted from http://whatthecommit.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What could we do to make this licences discussion more inclusive?
On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 18:32, Heiko Jacobs heiko.jac...@gmx.de wrote: John Smith schrieb: On 20 July 2010 19:11, 80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: There is no contract between OSMF and most contributors (excepting newbies who have signed up to the Contributor Terms).. Erm since OSM-F does run OSM.org the old contributor agreement saying you agree to license your work under cc-by-sa would be a contract, wouldn't it? Is there any official archive of all contributors agreements yet used in OSM? This, I think: http://www.osmfoundation.org/index.php?title=License/Contributor_Termsaction=history ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] MapQuest Mapnik style available on GitHub
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 20:45, Antony Pegg anttheli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, As requested last week, the MapQuest Mapnik style is available on GitHub, at: http://github.com/MapQuest/MapQuest-Mapnik-Style Its under an MIT license This is great, it's really nice to see you guys being pro-active in opening your stuff, and supporting existing projects. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-legal-talk] What could we do to make this licences discussion more inclusive?
I've split this from the original thread before it derails the one it was in any further, and cc'd legal-talk. On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:57, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Ęvar Arnfjörš Bjarmason wrote: That doesn't just go for the LWG, it seems that a lot of the people involved in the OSMF prefer to do things via conference calls. The calls aren't recorded and published (that I've seen) Recording and making public such conversations would mean that everyone would have to choose their words carefully in order to minimise the danger of being quoted out-of-context by people with a limited understanding of English (wo might, for example, not immediately understand the humour in certain expressions). It would also discourage straight talk in many cases (people would say someone has contacted me about this-and-that instead of saying who that someone was, and so on). The telephone calls are already, as you say yourself, time-consuming and thus not for everybody; they are also, if I may add from my tiny little personal exposure, tedious and not something one likes to do. Your suggestions would make the telephone calls even more tedious, more time consuming, and rob them of the last bit of fun (in the form of a humourous remark here and there). It would be even harder to find people doing the work if you expect that from them. Well, my main suggestion was to not use conference calls due to the inherent bias towards people near UTC+0, and those that speak English at a near-native level. Which wouldn't be the case if the communication was in textual and asynchronous form. It's not something I care deeply about myself, since I probably wouldn't participate. But it's unfortunate that the people in a position to enact such a change would be those already active in the OSMF, i.e. people who've largely self-selected for doing things via conference call in the first place. I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but there are probably a lot of well known pitfalls to avoid when trying to run an inclusive international project in many languages. I'd think having English-only discussion at a set time convenient for Europeans would be pretty high on that list. I'm not sure I've heard any of the LWG members have any fun whatsoever on their calls! Further to what Frederik has said, there's a couple more points that are important. The OSMF receives legal advice on matters relating to the license change, and as far as I'm aware they are forbidden from making the legal advice public. If I recall correctly there was a problem about a year ago where the legal advice was publicly quoted and it had to be redacted from the mailing lists. Such is the nature of legal advice. I would also expect there to be lots of other confidential matters discussed (such as contacting people external to the project) that again can't be publicly broadcast without heavy editing of any recording. I'm sure the Data Working Group also has similar problems of confidentiality when there are copyright accusations being dealt with - some things just can't be recorded and broadcast publicly. That's fair enough. But since the legal advice and confidential information is being given to the OSMF, is there anything preventing these from being recorded and distributed amongst paying OSMF members, and not members of the general public? I.e. can the legal advice only be shared among people actually on the LWG conference call, and not all OSMF members? And would it be possible to offer podcasts of working group conference calls that aren't (presumably) legally sensitive, like the SOTM group, Local Chapters, Strategy, Sysadmins etc.? (from http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups) I'm sure if there are specific things from the minutes that you'd like elaboration on, the LWG members will do their best to try to answer your questions. I think the LWG should be applauded for providing such up-to-date minutes for all of their regular meetings, it shows some insight into their dedication to doing things well. Well, since you mention it I proposed a human readable version of the contributor terms in May [1] which the LWG rewrote [2]. A mention of it in the minutes last appeared on 2010-06-22 [3] as - Summary of OpenStreetMap Contributor Terms http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms_Summary Mike has removed This is a work in progress. Presumably that means they're ready for rollout, but I don't know. I have a patch to the website that's been sitting around for two months waiting for a LWG yay/nay on this. Now, I *don't* mean that as waa waa, they took two months to look at my issue. I understand that this is low priority and that Mike et al are busy with other stuff. What I think is unfortunate is that stuff like this which seemingly has no need for confidentiality is intermingled with
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] What could we do to make this licences discussion more inclusive?
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 13:05, James Livingston li...@sunsetutopia.com wrote: On 14/07/2010, at 10:28 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but there are probably a lot of well known pitfalls to avoid when trying to run an inclusive international project in many languages. I'd think having English-only discussion at a set time convenient for Europeans would be pretty high on that list. I don't know if you'll get out of being English-only, since like it or not it is the main working language of OSM (as with many open projects on the Internet). Using any other language is probably going to exclude even more people. I should have been clearer. The problem isn't that the communication happens in English, but that it's happening in real time over the telephone. My German is pretty basic, but I can follow everything on talk-de armed with Google Translate and dict.leo.org. However, I wouldn't be able to follow a real-time German teleconference. That applies to a lot of people that are involved in OpenStreetMap, and will increasingly apply as we attract more contributors outside of the US/European hacker community. As an example, during the live stream for SOTM's QA session in Girona someone in the audience interrupted Steve Coast and asked him (in broken English), to please speak slowly and enunciate carefully, because many in the audience couldn't understand spoken English at that pace. That person is a good example of someone interested in the project (at least interested enough to show up on SOTM), but would pretty much be naturally excluded from the current teleconference system. One thing that I've seen done in other projects is rotate between three meeting times eight hours apart. So for example one meeting would be 1800 UTC, the next 0200 UTC and the next 1000 UTC. Maybe that would mitigate it, I don't know. But since we're all volunteers living on a spinning globe I think what should be answered first is whether these discussions really have to be synchronous. Further to what Frederik has said, there's a couple more points that are important. The OSMF receives legal advice on matters relating to the license change, and as far as I'm aware they are forbidden from making the legal advice public. I can't speak for them, but I would guess it's more inadvisable than forbidden (with respect to licensing anyway). If you get advice saying we believe that sections A, B and C will hold up in court, section D probably would, E should unless XYZ happens and we don't know about F, then telling everyone that means anyone trying to get around it knows about the potential holes you found. I hope security through obscurity like that isn't something we're actually relying on. It'd also be trivially found out by anyone else willing to pay lawyers of equal caliber. Of course, people using the license will want to know about that kind of thing, so it's a trade-off. I.e. can the legal advice only be shared among people actually on the LWG conference call, and not all OSMF members? Who can be on the call - LWG members, any OSMF member, or anyone involved in the project? Actually, I can't even find how you get on the LWG in the first place. I can't find that either. It'd be nice if the criteria for joining / application process was oneline somewhere. Maybe it is and I just haven't found it. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Defining critical mass...
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 09:08, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: But there's no intention to create an inner circle or, by corrollary, exclude other people. What could we (you/me/LWG) do to make this more inclusive? [...] See also http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes if you are interested in seeing what's been involved in the LWG so far. There's a lot of data being lost when you publish minutes. Entire discussions are being squeezed into a bullet point or two. It would help if those meetings were also published as podcasts. That doesn't just go for the LWG, it seems that a lot of the people involved in the OSMF prefer to do things via conference calls. The calls aren't recorded and published (that I've seen), so the only people who can be directly involved in them and get the full data (and not just summaries) are those that: * Speak English at the level of being able to participate in a conference call. * Are roughly in the CET timezone. Those conference calls are in the middle of the night in some parts of the globe. * Can commit enough time to the project to do a synchronous conference call weekly. That's a pretty small group compared to e.g. what you could get with a closed but publically archived mailing list. I get that a conference call can be easier than writing E-Mail, but this model of communication for the OSMF is restricting a lot of user participation in what is otherwise an international and multilingular project. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] What could we do to make this licences discussion more inclusive?
I've split this from the original thread before it derails the one it was in any further, and cc'd legal-talk. On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:57, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Ęvar Arnfjörš Bjarmason wrote: That doesn't just go for the LWG, it seems that a lot of the people involved in the OSMF prefer to do things via conference calls. The calls aren't recorded and published (that I've seen) Recording and making public such conversations would mean that everyone would have to choose their words carefully in order to minimise the danger of being quoted out-of-context by people with a limited understanding of English (wo might, for example, not immediately understand the humour in certain expressions). It would also discourage straight talk in many cases (people would say someone has contacted me about this-and-that instead of saying who that someone was, and so on). The telephone calls are already, as you say yourself, time-consuming and thus not for everybody; they are also, if I may add from my tiny little personal exposure, tedious and not something one likes to do. Your suggestions would make the telephone calls even more tedious, more time consuming, and rob them of the last bit of fun (in the form of a humourous remark here and there). It would be even harder to find people doing the work if you expect that from them. Well, my main suggestion was to not use conference calls due to the inherent bias towards people near UTC+0, and those that speak English at a near-native level. Which wouldn't be the case if the communication was in textual and asynchronous form. It's not something I care deeply about myself, since I probably wouldn't participate. But it's unfortunate that the people in a position to enact such a change would be those already active in the OSMF, i.e. people who've largely self-selected for doing things via conference call in the first place. I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but there are probably a lot of well known pitfalls to avoid when trying to run an inclusive international project in many languages. I'd think having English-only discussion at a set time convenient for Europeans would be pretty high on that list. I'm not sure I've heard any of the LWG members have any fun whatsoever on their calls! Further to what Frederik has said, there's a couple more points that are important. The OSMF receives legal advice on matters relating to the license change, and as far as I'm aware they are forbidden from making the legal advice public. If I recall correctly there was a problem about a year ago where the legal advice was publicly quoted and it had to be redacted from the mailing lists. Such is the nature of legal advice. I would also expect there to be lots of other confidential matters discussed (such as contacting people external to the project) that again can't be publicly broadcast without heavy editing of any recording. I'm sure the Data Working Group also has similar problems of confidentiality when there are copyright accusations being dealt with - some things just can't be recorded and broadcast publicly. That's fair enough. But since the legal advice and confidential information is being given to the OSMF, is there anything preventing these from being recorded and distributed amongst paying OSMF members, and not members of the general public? I.e. can the legal advice only be shared among people actually on the LWG conference call, and not all OSMF members? And would it be possible to offer podcasts of working group conference calls that aren't (presumably) legally sensitive, like the SOTM group, Local Chapters, Strategy, Sysadmins etc.? (from http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups) I'm sure if there are specific things from the minutes that you'd like elaboration on, the LWG members will do their best to try to answer your questions. I think the LWG should be applauded for providing such up-to-date minutes for all of their regular meetings, it shows some insight into their dedication to doing things well. Well, since you mention it I proposed a human readable version of the contributor terms in May [1] which the LWG rewrote [2]. A mention of it in the minutes last appeared on 2010-06-22 [3] as - Summary of OpenStreetMap Contributor Terms http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms_Summary Mike has removed This is a work in progress. Presumably that means they're ready for rollout, but I don't know. I have a patch to the website that's been sitting around for two months waiting for a LWG yay/nay on this. Now, I *don't* mean that as waa waa, they took two months to look at my issue. I understand that this is low priority and that Mike et al are busy with other stuff. What I think is unfortunate is that stuff like this which seemingly has no need for confidentiality is intermingled with
Re: [OSM-talk] What could we do to make this licences discussion more inclusive?
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 13:05, James Livingston li...@sunsetutopia.com wrote: On 14/07/2010, at 10:28 PM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but there are probably a lot of well known pitfalls to avoid when trying to run an inclusive international project in many languages. I'd think having English-only discussion at a set time convenient for Europeans would be pretty high on that list. I don't know if you'll get out of being English-only, since like it or not it is the main working language of OSM (as with many open projects on the Internet). Using any other language is probably going to exclude even more people. I should have been clearer. The problem isn't that the communication happens in English, but that it's happening in real time over the telephone. My German is pretty basic, but I can follow everything on talk-de armed with Google Translate and dict.leo.org. However, I wouldn't be able to follow a real-time German teleconference. That applies to a lot of people that are involved in OpenStreetMap, and will increasingly apply as we attract more contributors outside of the US/European hacker community. As an example, during the live stream for SOTM's QA session in Girona someone in the audience interrupted Steve Coast and asked him (in broken English), to please speak slowly and enunciate carefully, because many in the audience couldn't understand spoken English at that pace. That person is a good example of someone interested in the project (at least interested enough to show up on SOTM), but would pretty much be naturally excluded from the current teleconference system. One thing that I've seen done in other projects is rotate between three meeting times eight hours apart. So for example one meeting would be 1800 UTC, the next 0200 UTC and the next 1000 UTC. Maybe that would mitigate it, I don't know. But since we're all volunteers living on a spinning globe I think what should be answered first is whether these discussions really have to be synchronous. Further to what Frederik has said, there's a couple more points that are important. The OSMF receives legal advice on matters relating to the license change, and as far as I'm aware they are forbidden from making the legal advice public. I can't speak for them, but I would guess it's more inadvisable than forbidden (with respect to licensing anyway). If you get advice saying we believe that sections A, B and C will hold up in court, section D probably would, E should unless XYZ happens and we don't know about F, then telling everyone that means anyone trying to get around it knows about the potential holes you found. I hope security through obscurity like that isn't something we're actually relying on. It'd also be trivially found out by anyone else willing to pay lawyers of equal caliber. Of course, people using the license will want to know about that kind of thing, so it's a trade-off. I.e. can the legal advice only be shared among people actually on the LWG conference call, and not all OSMF members? Who can be on the call - LWG members, any OSMF member, or anyone involved in the project? Actually, I can't even find how you get on the LWG in the first place. I can't find that either. It'd be nice if the criteria for joining / application process was oneline somewhere. Maybe it is and I just haven't found it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing help.openstreetmap.org
On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 08:06, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: I'm be pleased to be able to announce a new addition to the tools available to support the OpenStreetMap project. The new help.openstreetmap.org site is a StackOverflow style question and answer site where we can curate good answers to the questions people ask about how to both use OpenStreetMap and add to OpenStreetMap. Nice, on the login screen it says Enter your OpenStreetMap username and password, but I can only log in with my OSM E-Mail + password, at which point it'll suggest my OSM username as a displayable Real Name. Why use CC-BY instead of CC-BY-SA like the OSM wiki? That means we can't base wiki help pages off good replies or questions on help.osm.org. Why was OSQA used instead of Shapado? I'm not familiar with the difference between them. But Shapado seems to have much better i18n support. AFACS OSQA only has some localizations for 5 languages, but Shapado has 50% localizations for ~14. Anyway, this is great stuff. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-legal-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 18:18, Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote: Comments in-line. At 06:14 PM 19/05/2010, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 16:42, Mike Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote: Great idea, thanks for taking the initiative on this. I had a go with your text and the underlying ideas we used to construct the terms below. Great, any idea about what timeframe we might be looking at for rollout of it on the signup form? I will dodge that question until we have had legal review on a draft that everyone is reasonably happy with but I promise to push it forward. Has there been any update on this? Can we include the human readable terms yet? Summary of OpenStreetMap Contributor Terms: - There's a lot I like about it, including that it's using bullet points. Those are easier to wade through. And easier to translate. - Don't put in copyrighted data. It should either be your own work or something that there is clear permission to use. Perhaps just talk about data you don't have permission to submit or something like that. Let's not propagate the copyrighted != non-free misunderstanding. Good point. I've changed http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms_Summary - You still own the bits of data you put in, i.e. you can still use them in other places. - You allow the OpenStreetMap Foundation to publish your bits of data as part of the OpenStreetMap geodata database for others to use. - The OpenStreetMap Foundation can only publish the data under a free and open license. If it fails in that, it has broken a contract with you. Actually, aside from these terms is free and open license defined anywhere as the OSMF is using it? Some define it as licenses approved be the OSI + FSF, but that's obviously not true in our case. It is deliberately not defined. The reasoning is that it is clear when a license is NOT free and open (which is what we really, really want to avoid), but we will all have ideas about what IS a free and open license. That will promote healthy debate and will change over time. It is up to future generations of mappers, not us here and now ... and certainly not by that dd License Working Group. - Until the proposed change-over, that license is the CC BY SA 2.0. When enough existing contributors agree to re-license their data, that license will change to Open Database License 1.0. - The OpenStreetMap Foundation can only pick a new free license if it's approved by the OSMF membership (a foundation of paid-up members) and a 2/3 majority vote of active contributors. You'll be considered an active contributor if you've edited in at least 3 out of the last 12 months and don't take longer than 3 weeks to reply to E-Mail. - If you want attribution you should add your name to the Contributors page. - To the maximum extent possible, neither you nor the OpenStreetMap Foundation are responsible for anything that might happen to folks using your data. FWIW I left this bit out, I don't see whe warranty footnotes need to be in the summary, but perhaps the legally inclined disagree. Not critical, but I think it is worth reassuring new contributors that the language protects them rather than the reverse. This is only a summary and is not legally binding. The full text can be found at http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms Mike License Working Group ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Price for OSM survey
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 17:13, Roland Ramthun osm...@roland-ramthun.de wrote: To motivate you, there shall be non-cash prizes with a value of approx. 50 Euro. Do you know of any non-cash prize, ideally related to OSM, which would motivate you? Or would you rather take the cash, if possible? A printed out poster of an area of your choosing would be ideal, and in the 50 Euro ballpark. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch and NearMap sourcing - what? why?
On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 01:01, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: trac called, it wants its job back. My guess is that you followed a link with tileurl=whathaveyou. Yep (as I just mentioned in the thread on talk-au), I launched it from nearmap. And it looks like Potlatch remembers the setting even though I launched it from openstreetmap.org the next time. Ben Last (Nearmap) asked on the other list if there could be another parameter passed on the URL which would let them specify what the source tag would be (ie, source=nearmap) rather than it always being computed from the tile parameter. The right thing to do is to have Potlatch support named parameters, e.g. titlepreset=nearmap. Then you could link to that and users wouldn't have to manually specify the background. Adding support for that would be a relatively simple patch. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Ad
On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 15:13, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote: Anyway we didn't have anything readily available so we weren't able to seize the opportunity. Does any materials like this exist somewhere for OSM? If not do you think there is a need for it or was this a freak occurrence? There's a collection at http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/ Mostly out of date, but something to use as a baseline. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] scuba dive sites
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 11:57, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Saturday 22 May 2010 11:27:08 Nic Roets wrote: I've seen some dive sites tagged as place=locality AFAIK, place=locality indicates a place where people stay... No, locality was introduced for named geographic places where nobody lives. Maybe, but in practice place=locality gets tacked on to a lot of random stuff you'd like to have rendered *now*. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Any way to recover these Potlatch changes?
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 20:17, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, really useful: Komzpa NE2: throw away potlatch and use josm (or vim) Potlatch doesn't include a save facility, JOSM and Merkaartor do. While that advice doesn't help you for this particular case, it might help you in the future. With a local desktop editor you can save to a file frequently, you can also do this with Potlatch if you keep a changeset open and keep putting data into it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 07:38, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: I think the most effective way to push forward what osm.org could be is by demonstrating ideas with code. Isn't the code base now on github? Start forking, trying out ideas ... things that work are going to be more convincing than our descriptions of what to do. Code that works (in all senses) should make it out to production. Yeah I'm aware of the GitHub mirror, I put it there. Some things lend themselves well to experimental patches. I don't think this is one of those things, for reasons that are about to become apparent. Here's a mockup: http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-stuff-here.png The contents of the white area would be determined by the aforementioned user editable reviewed page. The brief about blurb that's now right below the logo should probably be the first thing merged into it. Actually, here's what the main content area might look like (this site is based on a mockup Richard did IIRC): http://www.openstreetmap.ca Or perhaps even: http://www.openstreetmap.de The idea is simple. Make the main page something that provides the user with some context, useful (e.g. Garmin) downloads, direct him to other interesting projects (e.g. printouts, routers etc.). What exactly makes the above list we can decide together, that is if we decide that the main page for osm.org shouldn't be one giant map view. I'm not going to spend more time implementing the required code without there being some interest in deploying it. Spending many hours hacking the JS/CSS, setting up a wiki - Git sync (along with a preview) just to be told thanks, but no thanks isn't my idea of fun. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 08:49, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:
On 18/05/10 09:39, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
Here's a mockup:
http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-stuff-here.png
The contents of the white area would be determined by the
aforementioned user editable reviewed page. The brief about blurb
that's now right below the logo should probably be the first thing
merged into it.
Unfortunately that mockup leaves all the worst bits of the current site
intact ;-)
You'll probably like this one better, it takes the concept of insert
neat stuff here even further, just add imagination:
http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-neater-stuff-here.png
Before you all get too carried away with this extra tab idea of Ævar's I
would just like to point out what I've said before about adding more tabs,
namely that we already have too many and that any attempt add more without
doing something about the layout is going to have a hard time getting
merged.
Yeah, adding tabs is a pain. Mostly because the spaces the tabs take
conflicts with the space the Hi {{user}} ... line takes.
I suggested (and patched it) at one point to solve that the way
Wikipedia does, by moving them apart. That would leave ~20px less
space for the main map. Not such a big deal if it's not *the* site
element anymore.
It would solve our existing overflow problems, and give us space for
small notices at the top like Would you like to view osm.org in
$language, or head over to the wiki for Haiti mapping... We might
even be able to move the search bar up there, users like the search
field at the top of the page. At least so Google, Wikimedia and others
have gathered.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 09:16, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 18/05/10 10:08, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: It would solve our existing overflow problems, and give us space for small notices at the top like Would you like to view osm.org in $language, or head over to the wiki for Haiti mapping... We might even be able to move the search bar up there, users like the search field at the top of the page. At least so Google, Wikimedia and others have gathered. I don't dispute that it might be nice to move the search bar up there but I think we should also remove the tabs and find some other way of navigating between the other major elements of the site. I think having a non-giant-map mainpage could be a very large step in that direction. User blogs I think could be moved to such a mainpage (under some Community heading). Rarely do I need to suddenly go to the blogs, I'd be fine with freeing up some space by adding a level of indirection to it. Similarly, perhaps Edit / History / GPS traces could all be consolidated under a View or edit the map. So we'd have: * About - Lists all the neat things about OSM - Short blurb about what it is - You can view/edit/download data - Get in touch, participate, read blawgs * View or edit the map - Get an editing interface with a big map - Edit the data - View / upload traces - See history / browse objects Adding a proper main page could free up a lot of the interface in the long run, since there'd be some non-layout place to put some of the links now in the layout. I think I've advocated this enough. If you want patches you know where to find me. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 21:43, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Some selective replying... Have a look at waze's twitter feed. *That* is the kind of community building we need to be doing now. Agreed, but you personally control the openstreetmap twitter account don't you? If you think waze's twitter account is nice (what it mostly does is answer a bunch of user questions, which implies a dedicated support team sitting behind it). Then perhaps you should give other people access to that account so they can field user questions under the of OpenStreetMap banner. This is perhaps unfairly snarky, but maybe then we'd have more user help from @openstreetmap and less stuff like this: http://twitter.com/openstreetmap/status/13991402867 That isn't representative of the typical tweet from @openstreetmap, but unhelpful stuff like which you seemingly sent to the wrong account does pop up from time to time. Look at their site design. Look at mapzen. None of it's perfect, but it's generally a lot better than where we are. I think it would be neat if Mapzen was optionally available on OpenStreetMap.org, I asked you about this before[1] and you thought it was too. Perhaps Mapzen's source repository could be hosted publicly somewhere to make that easy? More generally, I agree with your point that we should have more of a let's just do it culture, but it also doesn't help much to have what are essentially unfinished drive-by improvements like the website redesign and now the logo which just seem to stir up a lot of dust, and never go anywhere. I don't mean that it's your fault, just that there's obviously a lot of disagreement about what we should be doing. I we keep having these discussions because don't have any clear direction for what we want to *do* with OpenStreetMap.org. A lot of people here (including, it seems, the people that decide what goes on the site) want openstreetmap.org to be just about the data. That's fine, but at the same time the first thing a newbie sees on the site is a giant map, suggesting we're trying to be some Google Maps-alike. The thing is, we make a very bad Google Maps, just compare stuff like this: http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=17295062644392818820 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/427855410 I keep introducing people to OpenStreetMap and they keep asking me questions like that's neat, but how do I get directions, to which the answer is oh there's some third party service that does that, just let me dig it up from some dungeon on the wiki real quick. So how about this for a suggestion: Let's make a new tab on the website to the left of Map called About or Project or something like that. The content of that page would be raw HTML that would be maintained on the wiki somewhere (with a preview before rollout). This is how the http://wikipedia.org/ main page is managed[2]. Then the first thing you'd see when you go to openstreetmap.org would be some context, you'd see that we're a data providing project but that we have an example map. You'd also note that there were a bunch of 3rd party projects that are doing neat things (maposmatic, openstreetbrowse etc.). And that if you wanted something more Google Maps like, or an alternate editor you might enjoy CloudMade, Mapzen, JOSM etc. While we keep fighting over what we should do, a lot of people are already doing it in true OpenStreetMap fashion. They're just not getting as much exposure as they might be getting if they were more prominently advertised. I volunteer to implement the required technical stuff, given that it doesn't get shot down in the replies to follow. 1. http://www.mail-archive.com/d...@openstreetmap.org/msg10573.html 2. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_template ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flash and open source
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 12:17, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I'm also very concerned about the amount of dihydrogenmonoxide contained in almost any drink you can get nowadays. It is virtually impossible to escape the stuff, and people are reported to have died from it already[0]. Dihydrogenmonoxide is even more harmful than Ecstasy. 1. http://www.urban75.com/Drugs/drugxtc1.html /troll ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
Yes, such a project would be useful. I suggest you get in contact with some of the people already running something similar, e.g.: http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php That project has selectable maps, a mapsource installer and more. Presumably it could use some programming help to perhaps make custom maps. There's also style support in mkgmap, but I don't know of any nice UI for setting those styles. Something neat for that would be nice, and could be used by such a project. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 21:36, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 14/05/10 21:19, Ęvar Arnfjörš Bjarmason wrote: I've created a proposed version of the human readable contributor terms on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms/Human_readable The wording can doubtless be improved (please do so!), and maybe there's something more to cover. Let's try to keep it short though. The current wording appears to have been written in a way that is aimed at existing contributors rathera than new contributors, who are the only people being shown the terms currently. Patches welcome! Seriously, I'm not a native speaker and the text can be improved in lots of little (and big) ways. The intent with the OpenStreetMap is now moving away part was to provide some summary, but maybe that's not necessary. New users don't need to know that [...] that attribution is handled differently [...]. The attribution part is there because of section #4 of the contributor terms: 4. At Your or the copyright holder’s option, OSMF agrees to attribute You or the copyright holder. A mechanism will be provided, currently a web page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution They apply whether you're a new user or not. I don't see any reason why new users would care less about attribution than users that have signed up in the past. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flash and open source
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 17:08, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Occasionally the subject of Flash and free software comes up here in relation to Potlatch. I would encourage people to sign the petition at http://openplayer.net/ encouraging Adobe to make the Flash Player open source. Making their player open source would be nice. But what's mainly stopping players like Gnash is that their protocols are closed, and that anyone working on opening them up is subject to Adobe's legal team [1]. Adobe is obviously aware of these issues, but chooses to keep their platform closed. An online petition is unlikely to change their mind. 1. http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/notice.cgi?NoticeID=25159 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
I've created a proposed version of the human readable contributor terms on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms/Human_readable The wording can doubtless be improved (please do so!), and maybe there's something more to cover. Let's try to keep it short though. If the legal cabal doesn't disapprove of this (and hopefully, approves) I can submit patches against the website to include this in the relevant signup form. The proposed terms would appear where the Please read the agreement below and press the agree button to create your account text does on the current signup form. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 20:44, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: The wording can doubtless be improved (please do so!), and maybe there's something more to cover. Let's try to keep it short though. I think the wording is ok, but I would advise against translating it. I believe that presenting a crowdsource-translated summary above an English legalese could be interpreted as misleading the users. Personally, I think that translations are a problem in many places in OSM. Stuff is translated and then starts to rot because whoever did the translation goes hunting for the next non-translated bit. This is just the same as with imports; the translations create documents that nobody cares about, that do not have a community to support them. It's not misleading if you make sure to note that the summary or the translation isn't canonical. See what I did with the copyright page[1] for an example (only works if you don't view it in English). I'm also talking about translating it on Translatewiki not the OpenStreetMap wiki. The former doesn't suffer from bitrotted translations because out of date translations are automatically marked as obsolete. They'll be removed in time if they're not updated. There seem to be some areas where it works, but I have the impression that triumphantly adding a 23rd language to some page on the Wiki does not, overall, improve quality. The website is now available in just under 70 languages. You have to consider that a lot of the people speaking those languages don't understand English *at all*. The English-only terms might as well be in Klingon as far as their understanding of them goes. Of course you have to be careful when translating texts in legalese (or their summaries). I think the copyright page does a good job of this, allowing translations while explicitly declaring the English version to be canonical. A summary also helps native English speakers. Users are very prone to completely ignore long legal texts and blindly click Agree. They're much more likely to read and understand a short summary intended for the layman. 1. http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 21:36, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 14/05/10 21:19, Ęvar Arnfjörš Bjarmason wrote: I've created a proposed version of the human readable contributor terms on the wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms/Human_readable The wording can doubtless be improved (please do so!), and maybe there's something more to cover. Let's try to keep it short though. The current wording appears to have been written in a way that is aimed at existing contributors rathera than new contributors, who are the only people being shown the terms currently. Patches welcome! Seriously, I'm not a native speaker and the text can be improved in lots of little (and big) ways. The intent with the OpenStreetMap is now moving away part was to provide some summary, but maybe that's not necessary. New users don't need to know that [...] that attribution is handled differently [...]. The attribution part is there because of section #4 of the contributor terms: 4. At Your or the copyright holder’s option, OSMF agrees to attribute You or the copyright holder. A mechanism will be provided, currently a web page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution They apply whether you're a new user or not. I don't see any reason why new users would care less about attribution than users that have signed up in the past. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 20:19, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If the legal cabal doesn't disapprove of this (and hopefully, approves) I can submit patches against the website to include this in the relevant signup form. I've now changed[1] the signup form in my branch: before: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6c/Contributor-terms.png after: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/fd/New-contributor-terms.png The wording in the patch is just a snapshot from the wiki. The patch will obviously have to be updated to incorporate any changes in the summary. 1. http://github.com/avar/openstreetmap-website/compare/master...topic/human-readable-contributor-terms ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed human readable contributor terms
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 21:57, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: The point is not that we don't need to explain how attribution is handled but rather that we don't need to mention that it's a change because a new user has no knowledge of previous arrangements. In other words the first sentence of the last paragraph is not needed for a new user. Agreed. I misunderstood your post. I've changed the wording of the last paragraph: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms/Human_readablediff=473831oldid=473827 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Flash and open source
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 22:51, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Aevar Arnfjorth Bjarmason wrote: Making their player open source would be nice. But what's mainly stopping players like Gnash is that their protocols are closed The SWF and RTMP formats are published. The codecs aren't, but that's the whole Ogg Theora/H264 argument for HTML5 and Firefox so not at all exclusive to Flash. And unless your translation code is cleverer than I thought, they're irrelevant to Potlatch (which is kinda the reason I posted here). At least in 2009 the state of those specs was that they were unusable for the Gnash project, see e.g.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3s-mG5yUjY#t=31m30s they released the specs, but the licensing agreement forbids you from using the specification to write your own implementation. Maybe that's changed since then. The main thing stopping Gnash from supporting AVM2 (and strk can correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's a whole big lot of work and there's largely only one developer working on it - even though he's basically a genius and Potlatch 1 would never have happened without his work on Ming. If you threw 100 programmers at Gnash for three months then you'd have an open source (non-audio/video) AVM2 player. I think you need to read The Mythical Man-Month :) strk shouldn't have to spend his time rewriting code that Adobe has already written. Sun made Java open-source. Flash is a direct parallel. I would encourage people not to get hung up on codecs (because Flash has already lost the video battle, all video will be HTML5 in two years) and encourage Adobe to Do The Right Thing, for the benefit of apps like Potlatch and a million others. Adobe has explicitly said in the past that they can't open source it because they've used a lot of parts in in that they've licensed from somewhere else. Anyway. Good luck with the petition. Personally I think it's about as likely to succeed as an equivalent petition asking Microsoft to open source Windows. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] The contributor terms are now translatable
The text around the recently deployed contributor terms (that every new user sees) are still only in in English. But now it can be translated on Translatewiki: http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:OpenStreetMap It's just a few messages, here you can see them in context: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6c/Contributor-terms.png Translating the relevant wiki pages is also helpful: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Why_would_I_want_my_contributions_to_be_public_domain http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributor_Terms_Declined ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] The contributor terms are now translatable
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 21:57, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Can we have a why would I not want my contributions to be public domain linked there as well? Just move the Why would I want my contributions to be public domain wiki page to a more neutral title, and have it explain both points. It needs fixing anyway. It's a wall of text right now. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New users have to sign up to the ODbL
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 14:47, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/terms Here's what that says: http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New users have to sign up to the ODbL
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 15:21, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 May 2010 01:19, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: Here's one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6c/Contributor-terms.png Is the France/Italy options translations, or different terms? They're translations. They can be viewed in the rails.git source files, but I can't find a human readable thing (e.g. on the osmf wiki) anywhere that has a copy of them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New users have to sign up to the ODbL
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 14:55, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 May 2010 00:47, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: will take you here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/terms where essentially you are signing up to the existing CCBYSA plus the ODbL (Open Database License). To save people creating new accounts, possibly using bogus details, just to see the new terms, can you post a screen shot or something similar? Here's one: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/6/6c/Contributor-terms.png ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New users have to sign up to the ODbL
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 15:29, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I would have thought it would have been a good idea to label those options in French or Italian rather than being allowed to be translated. No, all labels in the user interface should match the user's language. Currently it's only in English though because this was rolled out before we could have a Git - Translatewiki - Git cycle. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New users have to sign up to the ODbL
On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 16:22, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: On 12 May 2010 17:18, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 May 2010 01:56, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: You can override it by adjusting the Accept-Language settings in your browser. But how we do language *detection* is a separate from how we should do content delivery once we've done the detection. That's my point, the language detection may not be 100% accurate, and this should be given special consideration on things like the signup page etc... The wording is France-French and Italy-Italian specific. http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms/FR http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms/IT Good to have that on the wiki. Is anyone currently working on the informal guidance version of those terms? It would be nice if there was a translatable version somewhere (like the /copyright page) so that users that don't understand English, French or Italian legalese would get the gist of what the terms mean. I made an attempt at one on my osm blog[1]. Something short like that which the LWG can agree on would be nice to have. Then we could funnel it through Translatewiki and deploy it one the site. 1. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/%C3%86var%20Arnfj%C3%B6r%C3%B0%20Bjarmason/diary/10647 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Viral can be nice
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 07:31, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: We *do* want to allow releasing produced works under PD. Note that we are talking produced works here, not the data istself! Maybe you do. Personally I'm pretty fond of the feature we have now where I know that any map that uses my CC-BY-SA data is freely available to me under the same license. I can see some of the negative aspects of that like integration with other datasets (which have been discussed to death in the ODbL debate). Pretty much they only thing I've ever gotten out of OSM personally (besides exercise and being able to use it on my GPS) is being able to use the various map renderings by ITO World, CloudMade etc. under the same free license as the data. All other things being equal I'd like things to stay that way, but that's just me. The discussion on the current issue of the week[1] seems to indicate that at least some people share that view, or at least feel like being pedantic in enforcing our current license. Even though they couldn't enforce that if we'd move to the ODbL. 1. http://blog.oobrien.com/2010/04/nike-grid/ ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] viral attribution and ODbL
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 20:08, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org I think there is a difference, certainly morally but even legally. If you submit, under CC-BY-SA, data to an online map which clearly does not give the names of all contributors, and later claim that the map was violating your terms, that is something different from publishing your data on a web page under CC-BY-SA and then complaining that someone took it, put it in a web map, and didn't provide attribution. When you sign up to OpenStreetMap you agree to license your contributions under the CC-BY-SA 2.0. The license includes sections like: You must keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and give the Original Author credit reasonable to the medium I happen to think that the openstreetmap.org website gives credit reasonable to the medium via Planet dumps, the history feature in Potlatch and viewing details for individual objects at /browse/* pages. But this idea that the state of how openstreetmap.org fulfilled parts of the CC-BY-SA at the time of signup somehow modifies what the licensor can expect sounds very dubious. I've never heard something like this argued in any license debate. It would be interesting to see what the Creative Commons lawyers think about this. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abnormal votings on military objects in RU wiki part; PocketGIS madness
2010/4/11 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com: I'm a member of that team. I.'m one of those who voted for changing the rules of mapping military in Russia. The reason for that was NOT the problems to OUR project, but problems to the possibility to legally use OSM in Russia. It's nice to have someone from the PocketGIS team on the list. We'd be very happy to work something out with you so that you can use our maps. I'd like to suggest that you take down the forum post pointing people to mass-vote on the OSM wiki. How we decide things as a project isn't a function of how many people you can convince to mass-register for the wiki. We (PocketGis team) are currently making some efforts to prove to our state authorities that OSM data can be used by anyone, in any way. This is only possible if that data contains nothing that violates Russian legislation. As far as I can see from your website (via Google Translate) you're making a car navigation system where the user can't edit the OSM data. Why do you in that case need to prove to the state authorities that OSM is OK as opposed to *your map data* which is derived from OSM? By the way - the author of the originating e-mail is not a Russian citizen... Neither am I. I don't see how that's relevant to a global mapping project. Especially since there's the underlying issue here of how we deal with these sort of issues in general, not just in Russia. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Abnormal votings on military objects in RU wiki part; PocketGIS madness
On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:17, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/4/11 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com It's useful to check out some of the lengths Wikipedia (especially local language editions) go to to bend over backwards for national law. Wikipedia is not a good example - the geo-information is much more specific and under greater restrictions... There are differences but they're ultimately they same. Both are global projects recording factual data about the world. Wikipedia has already been blocked numerous times in China as a result It could work around it by creating a censored version but this has been deemed contrary to the core values of the project. We are trying to find a way through our legislation and the position of out authorities. We are not even sure we will succeed, but with thees military objects (which some of Russian mapper keep mapping just right now, stupidly copy-pasting data from Wikimapia - so no personal check of data, no trough on ground) we will surely fail! Anything being blindly copied from Wikimapia without permission should be deleted. Wikimapia's license isn't compatible with ours. There are to projects, one already launched and one bing prepared, similar to OSM, but both sponsored by big companies -one by Yandex (our Russian biggest search engine, could say local Google) the other - by on of the leading Russain navigation software companies. The do know very well that OSM is a threat to them! And they will use any chance to stop that threat. On letter to state authorities - and we will loose the possibility to legally use OSM. They can do nothing to OSM itself, but we are not in England, we are here, in Russia. I appreciate the predicament and as I pointed out it may very well be that removing landuse=military from Russia is the least worst option for everyone involved. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] xybot edit area size
Isn't there some option to osmosis that bot operators could easily use to convert their huge .osc files into something that's split by either 10km^2 or 1000 changes, whatever comes first? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Maps on TomTom
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:36, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 8 April 2010 15:15, grahamjones...@googlemail.com wrote: It looks like the TomTom will not be difficult to write code for. TomTom themselves recognise that they have used OpenSource code to develop it, and provide the open source bits of the software (linux kernels, libraries, and compiler) (http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl). Wouldn't it be better just working out their data format, like someone has done with garmin? Especially since they may use the same format for other platforms, than trying to hack the hardware and/or coming up with custom OS builds... Sure, if you can get it to work it should work just fine. I think you're underestimating the effort that goes into reverse engineering a format. Many man-years have gone into reverse engineering the Garmin format (and it's still not fully understood), the Microsoft Office format and Flash just to name a few. Getting a completely different stack of programs to work on new hardware might be relatively easy by comparison. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Maps on TomTom
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 16:25, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 9 April 2010 02:18, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: I think you're underestimating the effort that goes into reverse engineering a format. Many man-years have gone into reverse engineering the Garmin format (and it's still not fully understood), the Microsoft Office format and Flash just to name a few. I realise it most likely isn't an easy undertaking, perhaps it's not worth the effort and a better use of resources might be to organise/sell an OSM branded sat nav unit that has wifi and can update itself. I'm sure there's someone on-list with access to a few hundred million dollars and access to large electronics manufacturing capability coupled with a global distribution network. Alternatively we could just continue to produce a free map which people can install on devices that either aren't completely closed down or have existing workarounds. Garmin, iPhone, Anderoid and others come to mind. Getting a completely different stack of programs to work on new hardware might be relatively easy by comparison. Given my experience of using bleeding edge builds on other hardware this won't be used by most people, so while it might be easier for devs, it isn't for users. You'd just have your map installer install a dual-boot system on the TomTom so they user could pick TomTom or OpenStreetMap at startup, see what the Rockbox project has done for portable audio players for an example. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Ordnance Survey
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 15:28, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 05/04/10 15:43, Tim François wrote: I understand that with an area mapped there is less impetus to head on over and start making tracks and surveying. But just leaving the area blank when we have this fantastic opportunity to populate seems silly, no? This far down the line, it doesn't look like there are any mappers in the immediate area of which I was talking about. I speak from personal experience - when we first got the Yahoo imagery I enthusiastically traced the nearest largely unmapped area to me (Harlow) from the images. That was several years ago and to this day most of the roads in Harlow exist but are unnamed because nobody has taken up the baton. In the only London meet-up I've been to I spoke at length to a person whose main contribution to OSM is adapting her walks around London to Yahoo! streetname surveying. While I understand what you're saying I think it's also important to recognize that we all have different ways to contribute. Some potential OSM contributors may not be interested in on-the-ground surveying, and some aren't interested in chair mapping. The two can compliment each other. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 08:28, simone gadenz s.gad...@geologyx.it wrote: I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background for OSM editing. Is it legal? http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ Is it legal to? * Use it in JOSM: Yes * Edit data based on it: Yes * Upload it to the OSM servers: No I've used this extension with good results for producing derived work from Google Maps + OSM for my own use, of course I didn't upload it to OSM once I was done. JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all), not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org. As OSM becomes more popular more people are going to use the .osm format and editing tools built for OSM for non-OSM uses. It would be useful if we could accommodate these uses by e.g. making plugins like these part of the official JOSM plugin directory. Of course there would also have to be other changes like some way of having WMS layers register that they're unsuitable for being uploaded to OSM and a way of marking data as having been edited with some given WMS as a backdrop. But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:38, Gregory nomoregra...@googlemail.com wrote: I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM. Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to upload to OSM. Did you read the website? Here's what it says: Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:53, simone gadenz s.gad...@geologyx.it wrote: I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this situation to avoid future lawsuits? What service? It's a program that /you/ download to /your/ computer and run on your own. He's not breaking any law by providing you with this program. Just because some company writes a TOS that doesn't mean they can stop anyone writing programs that interface with their websites, but of course they're fully within their rights to stop anyone accessing them. I'm sure Google's TOS say something about automatic downloads. If I provide you with this program: #!/bin/sh while true; do wget http://google.com/search?q=$RANDOM;; done I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it. As for how we should cope with this situation we should do what we've always done: Ask people nicely not to trace from proprietary maps and hope they don't. Ultimately that's all we can do. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 13:04, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: To the same effect, he could have written just ignore the naggers with their legalities and trace away. It's only insignificantly more subtle the way he phrases it. Could have should have. Let's not forget the context here. Someone has written a useful piece of software *in his free time* for *free* which you and others to use *if you want to*, if not: don't use it. If he doesn't feel like plastering legal warnings over his webpage that's really really his business. I don't think anyone's in a position to feel self-justified in speculations about his intent. I don't mean to single you out but this sort of outlook is why he's getting hate E-Mail in the first place. Let us recall the ancient proverb: Life sucks, get a helmet. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 23:45, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: by the way: there is also similar (?) projects going on in Europe. Have you heard about youmap? http://www.youmap.eu/ I wrote to them proposing OSM instead of G-maps. This map is mapping exactly the sort of thing that would spawn a 100-reply thread on osm-talk from the old guard saying we shouldn't be mapping things like that[1]. Either we're going to have to be more open to projects like that or accept that they won't use OSM or contribute to it. Personally I don't care what data you put in the DB as long as you're maintaining it and it doesn't disrupt anything else unreasonably. 1. a cursory glance at their data reveals that they're mapping things that aren't on the ground. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-br] Wikimapa what is it?
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 03:33, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I had a quick glance and couldn't figure out their site, it wasn't dragable so I lost interest pretty quickly, but can you give an example? This is the first link on their front page: http://www.youmap.eu/?page=PrjHomeprj=91mid=432 Page through the Public projects sidebar for more examples. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving to Java 1.6 not so easy to swallow
I thought I'd reply generally to a few replies in this thread. Disclaimer: I'm not a JOSM developer, although I have submitted a few patches and a lot of bugs. JOSM like most of the OpenStreetMap toolset is developed by well-meaning developers in their free time. The direction the software takes is ultimately a function of what the people that submit code want to work on. If you think JOSM should do something that it doesn't do now submit patches, or at least submit a bug. There's a mention in the thread that JOSM mkgmap don't run under OpenJDK on NetBSD. Has there been a bug filed for this? I couldn't find any. How is anyone supposed to fix it if there at least isn't a report for the issue? To date I've filed around 300 bugs in JOSM's bugtracker, 170 of these have been fixed. JOSM's developers do care about issues you encounter, but they have to *know about them*. As for the Java 1.6 issue you can continue to run the last Java 1.5 release after the JOSM trunk has moved onto Java 1.6. The developers are putting effort into making sure that the last 1.5 release is stable. Even if you want to follow trunk you can still do that. Just dual-boot Debian[1] or Ubuntu[2] along with OSX and do your JOSM editing there. It's trivial to set up a Mac to dual boot (I ran this setup for years back when Mac hardware was worth the price for me). 1. http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/ 2. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PowerPCDownloads ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Reporting bugs (was Re: What do you wish you'd known?)
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 05:11, Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de wrote: We're a _collaborative_ project, but that only works if you collaborate! Many non native persons will be able to survive, if they have to speak english. But to describe (or read) such complicated stuff only with school-english and with nearly no experience in the dayly life is another dimension. That is where the collaboration will end for many OSM people. If you can't write English well enough to submit a bug in English just submit it in German or whatever you're comfortable with. Even if the person reading the bug can't understand it he can ask someone who can. I've noticed that we seem to have a lot of Germans working on OpenStreetMap so this shouldn't be a problem :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
