Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 178, Issue 55

[Andy Townsend (ajt1...@gmail.com)]

I suspect that no-one is taking the piss - depending on the mail client
"reply all" will very often go to the sender cc the list.

Perhaps a bit more discussion about what problems have been created might
have helped (and "source=knowledge") isn't a great description of why
something was changed, but to an outsider it does look like a couple of
rounds of polite questions were mossing before the "wtf is going on" on
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/120344373#map=19/-34.76638/138.58995
.

Where there are turn restrictions missing something vital like "from" or
"to" sometimes it's obvious what needs to be re-added, and sometimes
actually deleting it is just fine because other tags (such as oneway) are
doing the same job.

Where you think a turn restriction has been deleted in error, perhaps it
would help to comment why that was in error?



On Sat, 30 Apr 2022, 13:18 Anthony Panozzo,  wrote:

> Im not it’s 100% true, youre the one taking the piss by jumping in this
> conversation and just speaking on behalf of the other person involved when
> the matter was already discussed and sorted. Please do not email me directly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org
> *Sent: *Saturday, 30 April 2022 9:41 PM
> *To: *talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject: *Talk-au Digest, Vol 178, Issue 55
>
>
>
> Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to
> talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> talk-au-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: Talk-au Digest, Vol 178, Issue 48 (Luke Stewart)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 22:07:00 +1000
> From: Luke Stewart 
> To: Anthony Panozzo 
> Cc: OSM Australian Talk List 
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 178, Issue 48
> Message-ID:
>  3+dc4uvt_k62zz...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Can someone else please confirm that this guy is just taking the piss?
>
> Cheers,
> Luke
>
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 at 21:58, Anthony Panozzo  wrote:
>
> > I didn?t realise you emailed me directly I am going to have to block you
> > from doing so in the future, it?s against OSM au-talk policy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From: *Luke Stewart 
> > *Sent: *Saturday, 30 April 2022 9:21 PM
> > *To: *Anthony Panozzo ; OSM Australian Talk List
> > 
> > *Subject: *Re: [talk-au] Talk-au Digest, Vol 178, Issue 48
> >
> >
> >
> > "TheSwavu has already said he deleted it because the validator told him
> > to" - What's most likely is that the validator located a relation that
> was
> > incorrect, and he determined that he should delete it. Alternatively, it
> > could have been added back. Regardless, the relation was non-functional
> and
> > that is obvious given the single member
> >
> > "have you figured out how to route bus stops with out the platform tag
> > yet" - Stops should have a platform tag, either on the node or the area
> > that is the platform, but mass adding them still remains incorrect as has
> > been discussed ad nauseam
> >
> > "a bunch of people who all have the same opinion and wont listen to a
> word
> > im saying" - This is not always the case, however if everybody else has a
> > contrary opinion that may be an indication that you don't understand what
> > we are saying or why you are incorrect
> >
> >
> >
> > So if you want to add the no-u-turn relation on the freeway off-ramp,
> then
> > go for it, but it was non-functional to begin with. And a side-note, I am
> > yet to see a validator that says "delete it, it's wrong". It most likely
> > would say that there is an incorrect number of members, which then
> provides
> > a mapper with two options on how to proceed and fix it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please provide an example of where the routing is still incorrect, in a
> > way that TheSwavu has 'broken' by using a validator. It is possible that
> > deleting the relation, rather than re-adding the two missing members, was
> > the wrong decision. However, it is also the case that you yourself broke
> > the relation (again, perhaps inadvertently), within 24 hours of first
> > adding it.
> >
> >
> >
> > P.S., make sure to use 'reply all', so that the message gets cross-posted
> > to talk-au.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Luke
> >
> > On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 at 21:03, Anthony Panozzo 
> wrote:
> >
> > Luke,
> >
> >
> >
> > TheSwavu has already said he deleted it because the validator told him
> >  to, it wasn?t based on local knowledge or intersection rules. And have
> you
> > figured out how to route bus stops with out the platform tag yet? Do you
> > 

Re: [Talk-es] Ediciones del usuario Verdy_p, sin consenso con la comunidad española de OSM

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 18/01/2020 11:48, Andy Townsend wrote:


Just for info, Verdy_p started editing near Zaragosa again so I've 
blocked them again




... and this block was removed after the message to the list last night


Solo para información, Verdy_p comenzó a editar cerca de Zaragosa 
nuevamente, así que los bloqueé nuevamente,



... y este bloqueo fue eliminado después del mensaje a la lista anoche


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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 29/07/2019 11:21, ael wrote:
In the case that I mentioned, it was certainly not from their own GPS 
logs.


A few examples I came across while looking at these with a DWG hat on 
were also not from GPS logs.  In one case Amazon would have had to have 
been delivering by tractor; in another the actual building they would 
have been delivering to was first mapped in 2013 and was derelict then.


What I suspect that they were doing was "doing other mapping while they 
were in the area" (which to be fair is pretty much what nearly everyone 
else does too).


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-GB] Amazon Logistics edits

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 29/07/2019 09:35, Andy Robinson wrote:

I've just looked at a number of Amazon Logistics in my local area


Just to give everyone a bit of a heads-up about the DWG's involvement 
here - we got a number of messages about Amazon's mapping.  The biggest 
immediate problem was their use of "motor_vehicle=yes" on 
"highway=track" regardless of the actual legal access status.  To cut a 
long story short, they have removed this where they've blanket added it, 
and have since asked exactly how to map sort of thing (at 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jguthula/diary/390322 and elsewhere).


The list of Amazon editors is quite long - 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amazon_Logistics#Editors - and not 
all are active in the UK.  I used overpass queries like 
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Lea to check the edits.  With regard to the 
"motor_vehicle=yes" issue, I contacted each of the Amazon mappers active 
in the UK individually rather than going through a "manager" to try and 
get them talking to the local community.  In order to get from edits 
there to changeset discussion comments, click on an object on that map, 
then on the changeset, then "changeset XML" and copy the "uid=" value 
and use it in a URL such as 
resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=9310279 .


One other issue that people have raised with these edits have been 
"adding connectivity where there isn't any public connectivity" (i.e. 
adding a "highway=service" or "highway=track" that is in reality a 
private farm track, that connects two public roads).  Personally I 
wouldn't assume that either of these had public access in England and 
Wales* (Scotland has a different legal system), and I don't think that 
we can blame Amazon for adding missing geometry but only some missing 
tags.  Local mappers will still be needed to add these.  Amazon editors 
tend to have their own "local area" so a variation of the overpass query 
above can be used to identify newly added objects - I'm sure that some 
people will be able to use local knowledge to say "well obviously way 
XYZ should be access=private" and similar.


While looking at these issues I did notice quite a few other tracks and 
rural service roads (driveways etc.) where the access tags looked a bit 
unlikely - and there are of course many examples were designations 
haven't been added (where that isn't open data, that needs survey).  I 
notice that someone from the National Trust has written a diary entry 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/AJW92/diary/390378 to discuss how to 
tag England and Wales "rights of way" designations.


Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)

* I'd suggest that it's also not correct to tag "access=private" on 
newly traced farm etc. tracks - if the example above 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/120277748 is a "byway open to all 
traffic" then access=yes or motor_vehicle=yes on there will be correct, 
and "private" would be wrong (TROs notwithstanding).





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Re: [OSM-talk] Questionnaire

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 23/03/2019 10:16, Vincent Bergeot wrote:

Le 23/03/2019 à 10:56, Daniela Šedlárová a écrit :

Good day,
My name ist Daniela and I´m a student of geography. Please fill out 
the questionnaire for my thesis. The It takes you about 10 minutes.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdSZIjLltmnYjQ40hkX6lto5-rydEOxPGVBf8rBlcgA4S2kXg/viewform?usp=sf_link


please, not a google form :(
for you thesis, ask your university a professionnal survey software

Maybe that geography department will offer something when OSMF moves 
away from Google services for email :)


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Relation #2632934 is "killing" differential update

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 11/02/2019 10:59, Roland Olbricht wrote:


There must have happened something ugly at versions 99 and 106:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/FYm


Thanks for that - yet again something useful in overpass-turbo ("make 
stat") that I had no idea existed.  Is there any documentation about it 
anywhere?  There is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_QL#The_statement_make 
, but that doesn't have any useful information or give any examples.


Best Regards,

Andy






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Re: [Talk-GB] Climbing new heights in “interesting” tagging

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 14/11/2018 21:25, Andrew Hain wrote:

Road signs tagged natural=peak:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5890628170
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5890628171



I'd be gentle with them - it is their first and so far only edit :)

Best regards,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Roads for the Renderer

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 14/11/2018 21:03, Paul Berry wrote:
I've dropped DWG a note because the mapper in question has just 
responded and I need to hold my tongue rather than reply.




Thanks (email received, BTW).

One other thing - if anyone sees issues with "highway" changes in Leeds, 
Manchester or MK that don't match their recollection please add a 
changeset comment with specifics - "I believe that road X is a Y not a Z 
based on ABC".  I've commented on one of the Lancs ones already.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Roads for the Renderer

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 14/11/2018 19:48, Paul Berry wrote:

Hi,

Not for the first time I'm having a run-in with a user regarding 
arbitrary mapping of road classifications in Leeds. Latest changeset 
comments: http://osm.org/changeset/64361310


In this particular case I'd drop a mail to the DWG at 
d...@osmfoundation.org as they're not unfamiliar with this mapper.




Does anyone have previous experience of nipping this kind of thing in 
the bud?


Lots of locals saying "no, that's wrong - X is not a Y, it is a Z, which 
is how it was mapped before" is a good place to start.  There are 
exceptions to "A road is primary" etc. in the UK (e.g. Oxford High 
Street among others), but they are fairly rare.




I don't mind manually reverting changes at some point but I'd rather 
not do that just to start/prolong what might be an edit war.


Once there's a a concensus of local mappers it's not so much an edit war 
as one person who doesn't agree with everyone else.


I'd also suggest a review by locals of their changes in MK too (and 
sadly for me I'm probably more familiar with the centre of MK than the 
centre of Leeds these days).


Best Regards,

Andy

(from the DWG, although I wasn't directly involved in issues involving 
this mapper previously)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Changing wikipedia links

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 01/10/2018 23:39, Dan S wrote:

Op ma 1 okt. 2018 om 23:15 schreef Neil Matthews :

Looks like an automated edit - albeit a human curated one - without
discussion, certainly on Talk-GB.

The "imports" mailing list would be the right place to discuss it, if
it's a bulk edit (is it?). It doesn't seem to have GB-specific
implications for this list IMHO (even though this particular changeset
is of course within gb).



For completeness, this sort of thing has been discussed on "imports" - 
see 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-September/thread.html#78902 
and the subsequent messages.  Quite a lot of that thread is about other 
things (as tends to happen) but it has been discussed before.


In this particular case as Dan says brand:wikipedia looks like a more 
correct tag than wikipedia.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 26/09/2018 12:53, SK53 wrote:
I can only answer for my self. I generally tag these I usually see 
with a plain hgv=destination, possibly with maxweight=7.5t. The sign 
is very rare without an additional plate allowing for deliveries. I do 
this largely because I want to capture the information rather than 
because it is the most precise tag. Such restrictions are extremely 
common in Leicestershire & Rutland, and very noticeable along the A606.


I'd take that approach too.

In the specific sign example "hgv=no" or "maxweight:hgv=7.5" if there's 
no "destination" conditional part; or


hgv=destination
or
maxweight:hgv:conditional=none @ destination
(see 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/maxweight%3Ahgv%3Aconditional for 
other forms)


if there is a "conditional" part.

There's quite a lot of "maxweight:conditional" in OSM too, presumably 
for the same signs where people think they apply to buses too.  I'd 
agree with what's previously been said in that I don't think the "lorry" 
sign on it's own applies to buses (but would be happy to be proved wrong 
on that).


Best Regards,

Andy


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[Talk-GB] Wickham Market, Suffolk

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

Is anyone familiar with this area?  Someone's mentioned on IRC that 
Wickham Market has been changed from town to village and back a couple 
of times:


http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=114148812

Obviously it's been "town" more than village (and the person who added 
it as such was/is pretty local) - but is that still correct?  I'll 
comment on the latest change about this thread so that everyone's aware 
of it.


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Undiscussed mass-revert by user Nakaner-repair

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 23/04/2018 03:40, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote:
I fully support the efforts of Nakaner. There are 6-8 users creating a 
mess in the Denver, Colorado area.


What'd really help matters would be if local mappers could comment on 
changesets by new mappers (both "good" and "bad").  I see that someone's 
already commented on a couple of the "thousands of node additions" that 
you're presumably referring to here (if that was you - thanks!), but 
often locals are by far the best people to say "that doesn't look 
correct".  See https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/57929974 for an 
example near me by one of the "organised" mappers that alerted GB and DE 
mappers to the problems there.




See 
here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=5538075288#map=19/39.71967/-104.98736


That actually appears to be by a mapper using a different process (JOSM) 
but adding things in some of the same areas (LA, Denver) as the other group.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM AGM and notification

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

(just to add a bit to what Jerry said...)

Hi Tony,

First of all, welcome!

You've probably already found the "Contact channels" page on the wiki 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contact_channels .  OSM globally 
uses lots of different mailing lists, forums, social network sites etc.  
It can be a bit confusing, but Bryan Housel (the tireless main developer 
of the iD editor) is planning to tie some of these loose ends together a 
bit better, and the summary I gave for his benefit at 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2018-April/080447.html 
for GB might also be useful.


Slightly further afield than Manchester, there are regular meetups in 
the East and West Midlands, which might be doable from Chorley (I'm in 
the East Midlands and have worked occasionally just west of Chorley, 
though I've never tried a late-night train journey...).


With regard to the Manchester OSM UK meeting, I'm sure when the OSM UK 
folks are ready with an official annoucement at https://osmuk.org/ it'll 
get featured in the regular "weekly" - country-level meetups often do.  
Anyone can submit news for that by the way - have a look at 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm for details.


Best Regards,

Andy


On 14/04/2018 13:51, Tony Shield wrote:

Hi All

Starting to get into OSM mapping and things OSM - so I've found this 
talk-gb mail system, I've just found the website OSM UK and seen the 
weeklyOSM 403 global newsletter.


I can't see the AGM details on the OSM UK website, nor details on the 
AGM in the list of events carried in the weeklyOSM letter. Should the 
AGM be added to these places?


I hope to attend the AGM  - Manchester is close to me as I live in 
Lancashire - so I hope to be able to meet you guys and check what I am 
doing is correct.


To help identification will people be wearing name cards with their 
OSM handle, name and location e.g. . . .


TonyS999

Tony Shield

Chorley, Lancashire


Regards.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

...
Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a 
generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.


Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that "it's 
important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even where they 
aren't used very often" by sticking them on the end of the more commonly 
used name?  The other way around (using Welsh in "name" because it is 
the most used name) presumably wouldn't "undermine ... Welsh names".  It 
could be that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here 
but I really don't follow the argument at all.




Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.


That's great news - it'll allow maps like https://openstreetmap.cymru/ 
(and mine!) to render appropriate names in appropriate areas.



On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies > wrote:


  * The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which
is correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and
name:en are correct then the value of "name" should become
less significant. Then it can be up to the user to decide
if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if
both which language taking priority).

The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.



I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least 3 
choices right now:


 * OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use the
   "name" tag:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565

 * Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":


https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.264972448348999=17

 * Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or "name"
   depending on location:


http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=51.883531=-5.264898

and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do whatever 
they want.


Best Regards,

Andy

PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list - I'm 
guessing that it was but that he's actually not subscribed yet and his 
reply went both to that and Miguel.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/03/2018 16:18, Ben Proctor wrote:
(snip)


  * But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use
both in the name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury -
Amwythig are in England and, I suspect, there would not be support
to use bilingual names in OSM outside of the current boundary of
Wales. I don't challenge that but I'd see it as a political
judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the status of the
Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a mapping
decision.



Personally, I'd say there's just as much a case for a Welsh language map 
that also shows welsh names as the "default name" for use by Welsh 
speakers as there is an English-names map for English speakers and a 
German-names map for German speakers.  Which name any individual map 
chooses to show is as you say up to it.



  * In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and
least politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.



Actually I'd disagree here - I'd suggest "... most commonly used name" 
(which might be one of at least Welsh, English or Gaelic, depending on 
the languages locally in use).  I wouldn't use an English name for a 
place as "name" in a primarily Welsh-speaking area.  I don't think that 
English should have a special status in the OSM database, even for 
places in the UK.


I'd absolutely agree that getting "name:en" and "name:cy" added for 
names in use makes sense though.


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 18/03/2018 19:45, Richard wrote:


fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?



Interestingly, there's recently been a suggestion on OSMF-talk about an 
"OSMF-owned engine for social surveys":


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2018-March/005106.html

Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Talk-us] Rural US: Correcting Original TIGER Imported Ways

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 22/02/2018 16:57, Greg Troxel wrote:

For the US, however, you'd want to do something other than just
"downgrading to track".  There are a couple of options I suspect:

In the US, treating an unpaved road as "track" does not seem right.
Besides the surface issue, there is a very strong notion of legal status
between a "road" (often on its own parcel, traffic laws apply)and a
"track" (just a place where you could drive within some larger lot, and
often considered that traffic laws do not apply).

It also seems to me that the typical rendering of track is heavier and
more visually prominent than highway=residential, where for a
general-use map it seems that tracks are lesser ways.


One is to split unpaved roads out as a separate "road type" altogether
(that's how sidewalk and verge are handled as seen at
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=15=-24.99273=135.02137
).  The other is to have some sort of modifier (like "bridge", but
different).  that's how "long fords" and embankments at
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=15=-24.99958=135.0693
are handled.

I suspect I'm failing to understand something, but it seems that

   highway=residential surface=paved (or no tag, default)
   highway=residential surface=unpaved

should have rendering that is similar in weight, but with some clue that
one is not paved.


Indeed (hence why I wrote 'For the US, however, you'd want to do 
something other than just "downgrading to track"' above).  The "One is 
to split..." comment is about technically how to do it within an OSM 
Carto-like style; I'm not trying to suggest how things should look,



Dashed casing seems plausible.  But I realize this is
very hard as we try to represent more and more in a single map.
A dashed casing's certainly technically doable (though I suspect you'd 
need to fiddle with widths of things to get the visual weight right).  
You may to show tunnels (which use a very fine dashed casing - see e.g. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.5046/-0.0500 ) in a different 
way though first.


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] AI With Satellite Images for OpenStreetMap

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 10/02/2018 20:52, john whelan wrote:

My personal reaction is this is frightening.

Already we have buildings mapped twice and unless the import is done 
very very carefully I can see problems ahead.




This sort of thing has been tried before, with varying degrees of 
success.  Facebook tried to import some "roads" in Egypt (for a bit of 
background see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41096427#map=11/29.9540/31.0432 
and https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Chetan_Gowda/diary/39149 , and 
links from those).  Much of it needed to be reverted, because quite a 
lot of "straight lines with colour differences" got interpreted as 
"residential roads" when they were actually walls or drainage ditches.


The import in Thailand is discussed at 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=57942 , and there are 
still ongoing issues with the quality there (such as 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=684197#p684197 ). That 
last one https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/556830183 is a particularly 
interesting case because I suspect that many "experienced armchair 
mappers" would make the same mistake there - thinking that the road 
continues and not noticing the fence (visible on only 1 of the 3 
available OSM imagery sources).  I suspect that 99% of relatively 
inexperienced mapathon participants would make the same mistake.


The jury's still out on the overall benefits of the Facebook Thailand 
work - see e.g. 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=684270#p684270 in that 
thread, but it's definitely worth mentioning some of the things that 
they got right there (in some cases, only after a bit of prodding):


 * Imported data clearly marked so that data consumers can process it
   differently if they wish, like JOSM does with raw TIGER data.
 * Engage in a dialogue with the local community in the local
   community's forum.
 * Mappers with OSM user pages that explain who they're working for and
   who (at least sometimes) do respond to changeset discussion comments.

However, before we get carried away it's worth remembering that none of 
the examples on 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jremillard/diary/43294 are actually 
imports - they're things like QA and targetted Maproulette tasks.  It's 
now up to the community to suggest use cases.  If someone tries an 
undiscussed import without following the policy they should rightly be 
stopped as Facebook were in Egypt.


Best Regards,
Andy (from the DWG, but writing in a personal capacity)
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Re: [Talk-us] rayman 765

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 10/02/2018 03:43, Albert Pundt wrote:
A user by the name of rayman 765 has been making some... interesting 
edits.



...
What's the proper thing to do here? Obviously I can't just mass-undo 
every single one of his edits, but obviously this "Route 80" is 
complete BS.


Hi all,

Following up on the checks that other people have done I've had a look 
at the edits and can't see anything that needs to be kept there either.  
I've reverted the changes (see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56237756 and the next 3 
changesets) and have sent them a message 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1759 that they'd have to read 
before continuing.  I've mentioned opengeofiction as an outlet for 
fantasy mapping, but suggested that there might be real things in their 
local area that need adding too - and that there's lots of TIGER fixup 
still to do.


To answer the "what's the proper thing to do here" question - it's 
usually to add a comment on one or more of the changesets explaining the 
problem. In this case a couple of people have already done that (see 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=7555706 ) and 
there was no reply received, so either they're not getting those 
messages because they used a throw-away email account to sign up or they 
were just ignoring them.


Given that they hadn't replied, none of the edits looked like they were 
worth keeping, and any revert becomes more complicated the longer you 
wait, I reverted them using a combination of the revert scripts (see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Revert_scripts ) and JOSM.  If it 
turns out that anything really should have been kept after all, it can 
be "undeleted" at a later stage.


Best Regards,

Andy (from the Data Working Group)


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[Talk-GB] Rendering of old phoneboxes (was: Mistagging of old telephone boxes)

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 24/12/2017 01:12, Craig Wallace wrote:
It would be good to have some better tags for phoneboxes (which may or 
may not actually contain a working phone). The phonebox is often a 
distinctive landmark, especially the classic red ones, and many are 
now listed buildings.



...

Why not a specific tag for telephone_box or something?
It would also be useful to tag that it is a classic red phone box, 
even if you don't know what exact model it is.


Hi,
I've been thinking for a while about how to render these, and after 
noticing how many were now tagged with something, have had a go at 
rendering current and former red phone boxes like this one:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1210961179
http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=52.970323=-1.459425

There will, I'm sure, be errors (for a start it doesn't exclude Hull, 
where there are no red phone boxes) and it will obviously show the wrong 
use where someone's used an old photo rather than a current survey to 
say that a phone box is still there.  The code's here:


https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/6efbd8138581c0dc079f4f238786dc3b82e90fbf/style.lua#L800

That's based on the values in OSM as of about a week ago.

Are there any "current uses" of phoneboxes that I'm missing beyond 
library, defibrillator, tourist info, atm, bicycle repair station, 
disused and (obviously) telephone?


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Hull road renamed after rugby league star - BBC News

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 27/01/2018 13:32, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 27/01/2018 13:21, Andy Mabbett wrote:
On 27 January 2018 at 09:51, Colin Spiller  
wrote:



I see malcolmh has already renamed it.

Cool, but my question was "Does anyone have the coordinates, or the ID
of the way, please?"


To which the answer, I think it's safe to say, is 'yes'.



:)

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Roger%20Millward%20Way

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/vrn

It'll probably need a local to check signage on the bridge in the middle.

Cheers,
Andy (a different one)


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM maps that are accessible for the visually impaired

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 12/12/2017 14:28, john whelan wrote:
Are you asking specifically for ones that run on Apple systems or 
would another operating system be acceptable?


It's not actually me that's asking, so I can't add too much, but I 
suspect that the explicit mention of 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoiceOver suggests that Apple systems are 
what this particular person's interested in (though I don't know which 
ones - iOS, MacOS or whatever).


An answer to the general question may well be useful to other people though.

Best Regards,

Andy

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[OSM-talk] OSM maps that are accessible for the visually impaired

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

Someone's just asked a question over on the forum asking about "OSM maps 
that are accessible for the visually impaired" 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=676783#p676783 .  I 
said I'd ask here as this list probably has a wider readership.



Question from forum follows:

"we are currently exploring whether there are any OSM based mapping apps 
that can be used by visually impaired users. We would like the visually 
impaired user to be able to interact with the map possibly (and very 
likely) in conjunction with Apple's Voiceover.


Currently if I use Apple's Voiceover and other mapping applications such 
as Google maps or TripAdvisor, and if there are several POIs appearing 
as icons on the map, when using Voiceover to navigate these maps to find 
the POIs with my finger, none of the POIs are called out.


So I am assuming these maps are not accessible for the visually impaired 
user. However, when using Apples Voice Over with Apple Maps, Voiceover 
will callout the POIs on the map.


What I would to find out is whether anyone has created any mapping 
applications that are accessible and could do the following:


When a user taps or selects a POI, Voiceover will read out information 
including how far the POI is from the user's current location."



Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Planned rendering changes of protected areas

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 30/11/2017 13:46, Daniel Koć wrote:
1. Currently leisure=nature_reserve (old scheme) and boundary=* (new 
scheme) are frequently tagged in parallel, and it looks like the old 
scheme is used as a hack just to make it visible on default map.


Just to chuck one example in - I've tagged lots of 
"leisure=nature_reserve" and almost no "boundary=protected_area; 
protect_class=XYZ".  The reason is simple - nature reserves where I'm 
likely to be mapping often have a sign saying "XYZ nature reserve".  
There isn't going to be a sign helping me work out what "protect_class" 
in OSM it is, so that doesn't get mapped.  It's also nothing to do with 
"what gets rendered"; I actually render my own maps and map quite a lot 
of stuff that isn't displayed there :)


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Spam/Report user

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 26/11/2017 22:11, Max wrote:
There is only info on how to delete content by spammers. No way to 
bring users to the attention of admins other then comments of changesets.


Hi,

I've updated the three last sections with what I believe are currently 
the most effective ways of dealing with spam in those areas.  For a bit 
more background on the work in progress on the third of these see 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/841 and 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/pull/1576 but 
please note that this is a highly technical discussion of a work in 
progress; pitching into github just with comments such as "we need to do 
something about spam!!!" would be extremely unhelpful :)


Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG, who deal with the first 2 of the 3 categories)


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Re: [OSM-talk] New tool/API to find local OSM mailing lists by location

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/11/2017 19:18, joost schouppe wrote:
That's really cool. What would it take to merge more sources in there? 
For example the main community e-mail address, their activities 
calendar, their riot/telegram/slack group? Maybe a structured wiki 
page could be the source?




Firstly, it's a great idea...

However, it's going to need more than just geographical information I 
think - for example for the Netherlands community I'd use the forum for 
contact rather than the talk-nl mailing list, whereas for IE/GB/UK it's 
the other way around.  It'd also need people to be able to say e.g. "in 
$country we mostly use $other_service and you can contact us via ".  
Maybe it's possible to see how many posts in each list/forum have been 
made and see which is the one that people actually use?


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] What would make MapRoulette better?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 24/11/2017 21:18, Dave F wrote:


On 24/11/2017 07:59, joost schouppe wrote:
For example, "Skipped" to me means "meh, didn't feel like doing this 
task".


No! it's an option to ignore the task if the user doesn't think 
there's anything wrong. Maproulette is based on guesswork. A task 
doesn't mean there's an error that definitely needs fixing




I presume the "false positive" button is for that (although as I've just 
noted in another reply, that doesn't seem to work for me).


There appears to be a compulsion by users to complete tasks in 
Maproulette even when they have no *accurate* knowledge. This is 
wrong. It adds *erroneous* data to OSM.


There's a clue to Maproulette's randomness & uncertainty in its name.

I believe a good way to improve OSM data is to ban Maproulette.



There are a number of these sorts of tools around, and to be honest 
(with a DWG hat on) I see fewer issues raised about Maproulette than, 
say people using HOT's tasking manager and not knowing what they are 
doing (not usually their fault - it's almost always due to not enough 
suitable training).  Maybe people who use Maproulette have an idea of 
what OSM is and are already familiar with one or another editor and 
maybe that isn't true about some HOT mapping.


The only recent Maproulette issue I can think of where dodgy POIs added 
via MAPS.ME had some extra "missing" tags added via Maproulette.  The 
task in Maproulette should really have included "check that these things 
added by MAPS.ME users weren't mistaggings or just personal markers", 
but that's really something that should be in the task definition 
itself.  There's a discussion about a general "form of words" over at 
https://github.com/maproulette/maproulette2/issues/348 - that, together 
with the availability of "false positive" and "skip" buttons should 
allow people to only contribute sensible data.


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [OSM-talk] What would make MapRoulette better?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 19/11/2017 20:59, Martijn van Exel wrote:
For those who have used MapRoulette or at least have a good 
understanding of what it does: what would be the *one top thing* for 
you that would make it better?




Most importantly,

I'd try and make it a bit more obvious what it is.  When you go to 
http://maproulette.org/ you see a map, some numbers, and not much else.  
There's a "sign in" button, but nothing explaining what benefits there 
are (to me or it) from doing so.  Nothing says what the site is or what 
it is for.  The only mention of OSM is in the attibution at the bottom 
right, and that says "CC-BY-SA".



In addition:

Pressing return in the search box doesn't do anything.

What is presumably a settings icon at the right just displays some 
numbers but doesn't say what they are (e.g. "Total Tasks" - but what is 
a "Task"?)


There's a button at the top left that just seems to refresh the screen.

If I zoom in to a marker the "Edit" and "False Positive" buttons are 
greyed out, though oddly there are keyboard shortcuts for these. There 
are hard-coded options for a couple of OSM editors (though again oddly 
not a basic "edit" link).


The "I fixed it" button produces a "Not Authorised" error.

Best Regards,
Andy

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Re: [talk-au] Pokemon / doodles in Noranda, Perth? (Andy Townsend)

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 24/11/2017 16:42, angus wrote:

These two parks appear genuine



I was wondering about the spelling to be honest.  With 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/260221961 the surrounding road is 
"Kirkpatrick Crescent" but the park is "Kilpatrick Reserve".  I'm 
guessing that one or the other is wrong?


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 09/11/2017 20:48, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
JB, the "layer=0 removal" is one of the JOSM validations - it 
automatically gets suggested to anyone editing an area with that 
object, with the "fix" button autofixing it. JOSM doesn't have a "mark 
this autofix as invalid" button, which means that even if you don't 
autofix it, the next person reviewing the same area may. This sounds 
identical to the issue raised by Simon above:
> ...you don't actually "confirm" that something is a good edit or 
not. You only have the choice of making an edit or leaving it to 
others to do. ... This makes the whole thing entirely equivalent to a 
mechanical edit.


So we should either A) remove it from JOSM, or B) define when it 
should be kept vs deleted, because otherwise we are not being 
consistent with requirements.




No, the two aren't equivalent.  In JOSM, validator suggestions are made 
after you've been editing in the area.  Typically where "default tags" 
such as "layer=0" (or "oneway=no" for that matter) are used are in 
places where something's an exception (maybe this is the only cross-town 
two-way street) , or there's more information to be mapped (maybe 
there's something yet to be mapped over or under the "layer=0" way 
that's obvious from the context of the data in the area).  All you're 
doing is blindly performing (or encouraging the performance of) 
mechanical edits, where the mapper has no knowledge of the local area.


Ask yourself "in what way does removing layer=0 from a bunch of ways 
improve the quality of OpenStreetMap?".  It certainly adds no valid 
data.  It could potentially remove information (if there's a problem 
with something else also tagged layer=0 nearby that will be obvious to a 
user of an interactive editor from context).


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 28/10/2017 14:53, Blake Girardot wrote:

...

Please read his personal page on the wiki to understand his overall
goal and why to achieve it he has made a lot (like thousands) of
edits: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Verdy_p


I've read many, many screeds written by him over the last couple of 
years, but they all come across as "never mind the quality, feel the 
width".  The text that Marcos Oliveira quoted further down the thread is 
pretty typical; you could easily refute all of points raised one by one 
("I've fixed them as soon as they were discovered", "I've been very 
tolerant", "But seriously, if I ever made some temporary real mistake, 
did I ever refuse to correct it? " etc.), but it'd be a waste of time; 
communication simply would not occur - what he's written is just 
self-deluding garbage.  There are many, many times when he's been told 
that his understanding of a particular issue doesn't match people who 
are familiar with it in the real world; but he seems to lack the skills 
to process that information.



...

I understand we can all be difficult to work with at times, and
sometimes some of us are hard to work with all the times.

Verdy, I urge you to slow down on the wiki editing,


That approach has been tried a number of times (including as I 
understand it temporary bans from editing the wiki in the past).  It 
didn't work; that ship's sailed.  The only thing that will work now is a 
permanent ban.



...

And I urge us to keep trying to find a way to understand verdy's wiki
work and work with Verdy on the wiki. He seems to be making real,
important, needed improvements that will make the wiki much better in
the long term.


I see no evidence of this.  The only edits I see (such as introducing 
unnecessary layers of categories) are harmful to the documentation of 
the OSM project as a whole.



My impression is that much of verdy's improvements are just difficult
to understand for non wikimedia experts, difficult to explain because
they are complicated.


If that's the case, then he's doing it wrong.  Let's take a simple 
example - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Derbyshire is supposed to 
be useful to local mappers and it should be easy to navigate to 
neighbouring counties.  Unfortunately it isn't due to the categorisation 
of English counties and the complete dogs breakfast that is 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Counties_in_England=history 
(primary editor Verdy p ).



...

Verdy, I really wish it was easier to understand what you were doing
and it was easier to explain,


Clearly, if it isn't possible to understand what he's doing, then he's 
not doing a good job, surely?  Currently he's at 69 "contributions" so 
far today, and they all seem entirely unrelated to documenting OSM as a 
project.


I offered to intervene in the dispute involving the WeeklyOSM calendar; 
but someone else had already been given the "mediator" job of trying to 
sort things out.  I wish them all the best, but if it doesn't work out 
then I think a permanent ban is the only option.


Let's not forget what the wiki is for - it's supposed to document OSM; 
to serve mappers.  If it fails to do that - e.g. if people like Blake 
fail to understand why edits are made - then it's failed.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 15/10/2017 13:04, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
Andu, with all due respect, you are misrepresenting things.  I have 
received praises on OSM-RU channel, and that's where I got my first 
bug reports and suggestions that were quickly fixed.  The current 
mailing thread also received a praise from Steve.


You did indeed receive one message in your favour - I miscounted. That's 
1 in favour, 1 question (from someone who has been critical elsewhere) 
and 7 against.  Maybe that counts as a majority in your favour in some 
places, but it doesn't here.


At the same time, judging from the fact that someone did not feel 
comfortable emailing to the group, there seems to be significant 
toxicity and bullying going on.

Your message to Christoph seems to be an attempt by you to do exactly that.

People are telling you to stop; you need to stop.

Any amount of dissembling by you won't change the facts.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 15/10/2017 11:04, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Sunday 15 October 2017, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:

[...] I was following up on the Christoph Hormann's
idea of the "bot=no" tag, to "allow mappers to opt out of bot
edits on a case-by-case basis."

No, you were not, likely because you misunderstood my suggestion
which is likely because you don't get how OpenStreetMap is working
overall.

I would strongly advise you to reconsider your whole approach to
OpenStreetMap and to interacting with the OpenStreetMap community.

Christoph, kindly explain, instead of making snide remarks. You have
not added to the discussion, but instead raised the level of toxicity
of this channel even further.  Note that several people have already
noted that this channel is toxic and refused to participate in it,
rather than being productive and beneficial to everyone involved.

I rest my case.



Yuri,

In English there is a common phrase "which part of  *** do you not 
understand" (expletive removed because people offended by such words may 
be reading).


This thread 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-October/thread.html#79145 
currently has replies from 9 people.  1 is asking a question but all 
other replies are entirely negative (including comments such as "I'm 
appalled" and "that isn't acceptable behaviour").


Christoph Hormann's comment above is not a snide remark; it's entirely 
reasonable based on your actions so far - for an example of that see 
Tomas' reply earlier in the thread, or indeed almost any of the other 
interactions that you've had with the OSM community.


Best Regards,
Andu



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Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 20/08/2017 11:36, djakk djakk wrote:


Why I want to do that ? To improve openstreetmap, this is a worldwide 
map and the renderer can't be adapted by countries.




Sure it can - it's perfectly possible for a render to use a 
location-sensitive rendering (I've just done it myself).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-us] NJ mass road demotions?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 11/06/2017 19:52, Peter Dobratz wrote:
I've found that even active OSM contributors don't necessarily check 
the email address associated with their OSM account.  If that is the 
case, they may have not yet seen any changeset comments you have made 
on their changesets.


Indeed - and if they continually ignore those then drop the DWG a mail 
on d...@osmfoundation.org so that we can send them a friendly "message 
that has to be read" before they continue editing.  However in this case 
they've only had 1 changeset discussion comment per month:


http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=4337895

so they might have just forgotten the previous comment when seeing the 
next, and comments that directly invite a reply (i.e. "talk to us here" 
rather than "do X next time") might be more likely to get interaction.  
Also their last edit was a month ago so they probably haven't seen 
Bryan's detailed comment on 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/46561481 yet.


Best Regards,
Andy (from OSM's Data Working Group)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Birmingham Tree Import

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 13/04/2017 20:26, ael wrote:

And none of the 3 suggested causes applies in my case.


What was the problem in your case?

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-it] utente sempre lui

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

... and http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1297 .


On 08/04/2017 21:21, Fabrizio Tambussa wrote:
L'utente  è stato bloccato fino al suo 
prossimo login [1] circa 2 ore fa.
La richiesta è quella di interagire e rispondere alle richieste e ai 
commenti lasciati au changeset.

Saluti

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/
1296

Il 08/Apr/2017 00:24, "Andy Townsend" <ajt1...@gmail.com 
<mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> ha scritto:


On 07/04/2017 18:49, Daniele Gitto wrote:

Solo per segnalare che l'utente bloccato si è iscritto ieri
con username オプンストリトマップ.
Vediamo se è guarito (ma è già partito con la prima fontanella
"Fontanella" :-)


Indeed, the editing style looks identical.  As before I'd suggest
that people comment on any problems as they appear. Thanks to
those who have already done so:

http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=5624537
<http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=5624537>

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On 18 March 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle  wrote:


I'm off for a break and I'm leaving a couple of key imports partially
complete so I thought it best to give you an update of where I'm at:

I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
outrageous.


No, he was sent this message:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

because it appeared that the link between changeset discussions and his 
email inbox was broken.



There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping
community, and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has
been published.


That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you 
please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the 
"trees" import was published, and where discussion took place?



A well-respected member of the community should not be treated this way.


No-one doubts that Brian is well-respected member of the OSM community - 
few if any have put in as much effort as him over the years.  
Unfortunately even well-respected community members can have email 
filters go rogue on them - it's not the first time that it's happened 
and I'm sure it won't be the last  :)


Best Regards,

Andy

(cc:ing talk@ because I know there's been discussion, including on IRC, 
outside the West Mids about the trees import and as similar sort of 
council work is being outsourced elsewhere, it's useful to discuss it 
more widely).





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Re: [Talk-GB] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Import Progress

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 19/03/2017 12:52, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On 18 March 2017 at 18:52, Brian Prangle  wrote:


I'm off for a break and I'm leaving a couple of key imports partially
complete so I thought it best to give you an update of where I'm at:

I'm told that Brian has been blocked for these edits This is
outrageous.


No, he was sent this message:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1271

because it appeared that the link between changeset discussions and his 
email inbox was broken.



There is clearly consensus for them in the local mapping
community, and a well-defined and transparent plan for the process has
been published.


That was one of the questions asked in changeset discussions - can you 
please link to where the "well-defined and transparent plan" for the 
"trees" import was published, and where discussion took place?



A well-respected member of the community should not be treated this way.


No-one doubts that Brian is well-respected member of the OSM community - 
few if any have put in as much effort as him over the years.  
Unfortunately even well-respected community members can have email 
filters go rogue on them - it's not the first time that it's happened 
and I'm sure it won't be the last  :)


Best Regards,

Andy

(cc:ing talk@ because I know there's been discussion, including on IRC, 
outside the West Mids about the trees import and as similar sort of 
council work is being outsourced elsewhere, it's useful to discuss it 
more widely).





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Re: [Talk-us] reporting Pokemon Go related vandalism

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 27/01/2017 06:20, Will Senechal wrote:
  I'll try to keep an eye on activity around here, and will try to 
continue updating my area.


They've just "edited" again, and I've blocked in 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1169 , so I'd be grateful if 
people could keep an eye out for other problematical edits in the area 
from other names too...


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Peak & Northern Footpath Signs

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 14/09/2016 15:15, SK53 wrote:
Over the weekend I noticed a number of Peak & Northern footpath signs 
. 
A friend who is a member of the society told me that there are over 
500, and that some people try to visit them in numerical order (just 
goes to show there's always someone dafter than OSM editors).


I could never find a decent icon for them so have always just gone with:

http://i.imgur.com/PXOS7g8.png

via

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L763

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/openstreetmap-carto-AJT/blob/master/amenity-points.mss#L155

Cheers,

Andy

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Re: [Talk-it] Edit war Sardegna

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 03/09/2016 16:01, Fayor Uno wrote:


C'è un minimo di consenso? Si proceda.



If you think there's consensus in this thread currently then I have a 
bridge I'd like to sell you ...


Seriously, it is clear that there are things still to be worked out - 
for example, what's the spread of Sardinian language(s) use across the 
island, both in terms of use by people living there and in signage?  The 
OSMF policy on this is:


http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf

The "on the ground" principle described there means that among other 
things it's the local community who should have the greatest say - most 
things in OSM are "bottom up" rather than "top down".  However, it's 
important to note that there are tags available (name:it, name:sc etc.) 
in which to store names in different languages, and there's no barrier 
to creating a map with that data.  Many different renderings of OSM data 
are available and it's more possible than ever to create your own.


I've just reverted the latest shot in this edit war 
http://osm.org/browse/changeset/41889305 and one of the things that I 
found particularly odd in there was the removal of name:it for Sassari 
by you (see http://osm.mapki.com/history/relation.php?id=40683 ).  I 
would recommend to everyone to retain "name:language" tags for places 
where multiple languages are in use simply because it allows people to 
create maps in a particular language.


Note that, as I said on the revert changeset 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41891270 The DWG does not endorse 
either side of this argument and will revert mass edits in either 
direction.  For example, if someone tries to change the name of Sassari 
to any one of the 3 other language variants, that'll get reverted too - 
at least until a proper discussion has been had about the current status 
of different-language names on the island.


Best Regards,

Andy Townsend, on behalf of OSM's Data Working Group

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Re: [Talk-GB] Vandalism by https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/JoeanPlanck

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 21/08/2016 20:39, Ed Catmur wrote:

Does anyone feel like sending a welcome message and/or keeping an eye
on them for any subsequent vandalism this week or next weekend?



I've applied a 0-hour block 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1005 (essentially a "message 
that has to be read before they can continue mapping"). Their locale is 
zh-CN so it's possible that not all of that message will be intelligible 
to them (though their changeset comments are all in English), but it 
should at least cause some pause for thought.


Essentially what BCNorwich had already done in 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41583904 was exactly right - send 
a constructive, helpful, non-blaming message to the new user. As we've 
seen from some of the MAPS.ME edits not everyone who edits OSM for the 
first time knows what it is or what they're doing.


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Admin boundaries for unparished areas - how to handle?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 20/08/2016 13:33, Colin Smale wrote:


In the East Midlands Alex Kemp has been adding relations for these 
unparished areas, only distinguishable from Civil Parish relations by 
means of the value of the "designation" tag. This is contrary to our 
normal practice and feels counter-intuitive - why add an object to OSM 
which by definition does not exist?





It's pretty clear here that there's a concensus behind _not_ mapping 
these "holes" as admin_level=10 (EdLoach's "boundary=unparished_area" 
would make sense to me), but presumably we can wait until after Tuesday 
(when the next East Midlands pub meet is, and all local participants in 
the discussion will have an opportunity to be there).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Proposing import of sidewalk data Seattle, WA, USA

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 06/08/2016 23:40, Greg Morgan wrote:


Again relevance:  I am still waiting for a stop sign to be rendered a
year after it was requested. If we wait until a stop sign gets all
artsie and fartsie, then it will never be rendered and it will never
be mapped or shall I say mappers will become uninterested without a
reward for their efforts.  We deny one stop light towns the pleasure
of seeing something happen on the map.  We need this kind of data
before the renders can even have some use cases to work from.
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1683




Again this seems to be is the "I'm waiting for someone else to do 
something" line.  If you want a map rendering that shows stop signs, 
create one, like I did for sidewalks*.  Back in the day of hand-crafting 
Mapnik XML there was a seriously high bar to clear before "making your 
own map style", but now with CartoCSS (for which thanks, Mapbox!) that 
simply isn't the case any more.  If what you do makes sense at a local 
or national level it can get picked up at that level, and it'll stand 
much more chance of being included in one of the styles on the main 
osm.org site if you've got an example that says "here's how to do it and 
here's what it looks like"**.


Best Regards,

Andy


* https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/38136

** 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1260#issuecomment-225009856



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Re: [talk-au] Errors in rendering names of administrative boundaries

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/07/2016 08:14, cleary wrote:

I have noticed errors in rendering names of administrative boundaries on
the OSM website map.  It is not just Australian boundaries. For example
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.99957/-110.00728shows Canada
and United States on the reverse sides of their shared boundary.



I suspect that what's happening is that it's not displaying the text on 
a particular side of the boundary, but instead just to one side or the 
other?  The setting is I guess the "text-dy" below here:


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/0c70682a69c91b833399c1dd74409eee79ce4af1/admin.mss#L168

If you go up a bit from your "wrong side" example to 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/query?lat=49.00370=-110.00508#map=19/49.00368/-110.00487 
you can see a place where three relation memberships are all displayed 
on the same side of the line.


It might be fixable in the style (have a look through the issues at 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues ) or it might 
need something in mapnik itself (https://github.com/mapnik/mapnik/issues ).


Whilst looking at something completely different (how to use the road 
casing to indicate there's a sidewalk) I did come across a hack to 
display the road asymetrically over the casing - see 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/38136#comment34110 
and 
http://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/128244/tilemill-inset-line-with-negative-line-offset-property-value-produces-strange-a 
- so something like that might be doable here.  Above my Mapnik pay 
grade though :)


Cheers,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-us] How to get open street maps

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 28/05/2016 11:51, David Niklas wrote:

Hello,
I downloaded the maps, but they changed over night, so the md5 sums don't
match up. I tried using rsync -cav to ftp.spline.de, but the connection
times out "[Receiver] io timeout after 181 seconds -- exiting" (return
code 30) I know that the port is accessible because I used nmap on it. I
tried passing the --timeout flags but that made no difference. What could
I do? I can't download that much data from scratch and a subset of the
world cannot be resynced with the master?


What to download depends very much on what you want to do.  It sounds 
like you're trying to download the whole planet from a mirror of 
http://planet.osm.org/ (see also 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm ).


If you want OSM data for a small country or region, then I'd start with 
one of the extracts mentioned at those links. 
http://download.geofabrik.de/ is a good start because you can see what 
you're getting and how big it's going to be.


If you really do want OSM data for the whole planet then have a look at 
http://planet.osm.org/planet/2016/ for how often they change - that 
should enable you to time the download of a whole one before it gets 
replaced with a new version (or go for a particular date rather than 
"latest").  It's 50Gb though, so as well as taking a while to download 
it'll take a while to do anything useful with once you have downloaded it.


However if you really do want "maps" rather than "data", then where to 
go depends on what you want maps for.  For example, various maps that 
are suitable for a Garmin handheld or satnav are available (such as 
http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/ , see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download ), but 
they won't work with (say) MAPS.ME or OsmAnd on a phone.


If you instead want all the examples of a particular tag* in OSM, then 
you can start with something like 
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/railway=station and click through 
to see that on a map by clicking the "Overpass Turbo" link there (and 
get that data as JSON by clicking the "data" link at the top right).


The best place for general "How do I do X" questions is probably the 
help site https://help.openstreetmap.org/ .


Best Regards,

Andy

* and see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Elements for more info 
about that.



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Re: [OSM-talk] RfD notification: Purge tag "priority" from tracks

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 08/04/2016 20:30, Paul Norman wrote:

On 4/8/2016 7:14 AM, Roland Olbricht wrote:


This constitutes a mechanical edit. Therefore, I would like to notify 
you that I have put a request for discussion on talk-transit@ .
If you would like to discuss, please do so there. 


The talk-transit@ list is inactive, and not entirely relevant since 
railways are not just transit. Because you're only looking at items in 
the UK and Germany you're best off consulting with the local lists for 
those places.


In the case of the UK the changeset (singular) seems to be 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/26097829 .


If the adder of that was to remove one of the tags that they and they 
only added to the ways in that changeset, I'm not even convinced that it 
would be a mechanical edit.  Letting people know via talk-gb would still 
be a good idea though - and of course via the German forum for the 
German edits.


On the more general subject of railway tagging, I'm confused (see the 
discussion on https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/38327884 ) - but a 
discussion about "a German interpretation of UK non-standard railway 
infrastructure" is probably one for talk-GB as well.


Cheers,

Andy




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Re: [Talk-us] Caliparks re-tagging paths?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 26/03/2016 15:26, Kevin Kenny wrote:


In these areas, a trail is a fairly tenuous thing. The marking may be
just a splash of paint or an axe cut on a tree, and even that may be
limited to once every few hundred metres.


"A splash of paint every few hundred metres?  You were lucky"*

Seriously - it depends.  Trail maintenance and trail marking varies 
hugely worldwide, and the US isn't really an outlier in how it's done 
there - I'm comparing parts of the Western US to parts of UK, Ireland, 
continental Europe, Southern Africa and Australia.  If I had to 
generalise I'd say that trails in the parts of the US that I've visited 
tend to be less well marked than some places in western continental 
Europe, but more so than places on the fringe of Britain and Ireland, 
and _considerably_ more so than e.g. Australia.


The concept of "here's a large area of public access land, but please 
only access it on these paths" is marginally more common in the US - but 
there also plenty of examples elsewhere too (bits of moorland in the UK, 
for example).


Generally however, based on my experience of having been there, the sort 
of issues that the guys looking after the trails in Marin are dealing 
with sound like exactly the sort of issues that people all around the 
world are dealing with.  To echo what Richard said, the US really isn't 
a "special case" in need of the invention of special tagging here.


Cheers,

Andy



* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

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Re: [OSM-talk] What3words

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 22/11/2015 12:51, Colin Smale wrote:



...and once again, as seems to be the norm in OSM, any minority 
interest which is not supported by the oligarchy gets mercilessly shot 
down.




... except it's not _just_ the "oligarchy", is it?  No-one on this list 
seems to have a good word for the original idea.


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project: Nature Reserves

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 25/10/2015 14:42, Brian Prangle wrote (in a slightly different order):

> Do we need to tag Natura 2000 SACs and SPAs?  I've looked at the  
protected_area wiki page and quite

> frankly lost the will to live.

:)

I'm guessing that, a bit like rights of way, the tagging will sort 
itself out.  Actually working out the bounds of the reserve itself is 
the hard bit.


Only today I walked past one "welcome to Lathkill Dale NNR" sign, then 
at some point exited (no sign) and then entered again past a different 
"welcome to Lathkill Dale NNR" sign.  It's a familiar problem - I went 
path several signs on the south wales coast earlier this month whether 
one side of a reserve was clearly marked but the other wasn't.  You 
could I suppose align to walls, fences and hedges (and in extremis the 
sea), but in many cases there are several plausible possibilities for 
boundaries.  Sometimes there's a "sign at each corner" like at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53745064 , but it's rare.


> and the Natural England OpenData source and there seems to be a 
significant amount of data inaccuracy in

> my local area

Is that actually genuine, OS IP free, proper OGL licensed "Open" data?  
At the start of the month earlier in this thread Jerry commented:


> There are Natural England datasets for National NRs, Local NRs and 
SSSIs. I think these are under OGL these
> days, but like PRoW or Land Registry inspire data, they may 
incorporate OS MasterMap data, and I have

> always treated them as not fully open.

I had assumed that Natural England datasets such as these (also access 
land, see 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-August/thread.html#17638 
) were at the very least not "whiter than white" for the reasons 
discussed in that thread.  Fine for a uMap to survey and monitor 
progress by, but not for OSM itself.


... and of course there's the issue of "a significant amount of data 
inaccuracy" in the available datasets that you mention, which is another 
issue entirely.


Cheers,

Andy



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Re: [Talk-us] Anybody had any contact with this user?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 04/09/2015 04:55, James Mast wrote:
...  but I've sent him two messages in the last 2 months without any 
response back from him, asking him if he could please add a 'comment' 
to his changesets after he was mass adding some data in my local area 
a few times (mostly just buildings from Bing as far as I could tell).


It's certainly possible that (for whatever reason) they just haven't 
noticed the messages.  It's happened to me - I've sometimes not noticed 
the number at the top right of the osm.org website and if they're not 
using JOSM (which this user isn't) they won't see the more prominent 
"new message" display there.


Also, if the messages were added as changeset discussion comments then a 
user that doesn't regularly check emails (which some people don't - 
perhaps they receive mail on a computer at home and are editing OSM from 
a different one elsewhere) then it's possible that they may not be read 
immediately.  Something that's also happened to me is that after a mail 
server problem at my end has been fixed there's been a delay getting 
mails from OSM sent again.


If all other avenues are exhausted and you really wants to get in touch, 
as a last resort drop the Data Working Group (d...@osmfoundation.org) a 
message and we can send a user a message that has to be read before they 
can continue mapping (making it clear that they're not being blocked for 
any sort of "bad editing", but that we'd really like them to reply to 
messages that have been sent, or reply to changeset discussions, or 
similar).


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)

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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 30/08/2015 10:34, Dave F. wrote:


I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it  if there is none, 
remove it.


Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one.

Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant to 
be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away.


It's a wiki.  If you think you can improve it, do so.

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] List of OSM-based services

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 23/08/2015 12:31, Andrew Hain wrote:

As part of an article on the diversity of OSM-based mapping I’m
looking to check if the list at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM-based_services is up
to date, including sites and especially map styles that may not have
been noted.



A quick search for OSM-Carto map styles in github is

https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93q=project+extension%3Ammltype=Coderef=searchresults

(originally suggested by Zverik in a Russian forum post)

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] landcover=trees

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 15/08/2015 21:42, Lester Caine wrote:

My quick fix for any new rendering is simply to switch off 'farmland' so
that the tree blocks it masks actually display.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/245442613 is an example of the problem,
as are the adjacent areas to the right, while to the left the brown
areas are the local farm yards and the majority of the remaining cover
is farmland. trying to fill that with blocks of landcover is what seems
wrong here ...

For info, where are you seeing tree blocks masked? 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/245442613 is the outer of 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3318454 , and all the osm.org 
renderers seem OK with it - the non-holes in the farmland render as 
such, and inners such as http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/244873970 have 
tags that render.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] landcover=trees

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 15/08/2015 20:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


... And then there are areas where actually trees grow, sometimes in a forest 
and sometimes elsewhere. That's where landcover trees seems appropriate for me.




Maybe a diary entry explaining your point of view on this in detail 
would help here - specifically real-world examples of something that is 
landcover=trees but not natural=wood, and what meaning you think 
natural=wood and landuse=forest have?  Pictures you've taken of the 
areas would be really helpful too.


FWIW when I looked at tree rendering (see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/35220 ) I did look 
at the usage of landcover, with a view to incorporating it in the script 
the handles tree types there simply wasn't enough usage of it locally to 
even consider it (see 
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/tags/landcover=trees ).


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Best base to build on ...

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 16/08/2015 01:46, Paul Norman wrote:
... The problem with Tilemill is that is is abandoned, and includes 
in-program text editing, which adds significant complexity to the 
codebase, and this text editing does not function with large complex 
styles.


FWIW I've always used TileMill with an external editor.  Usually it's 
pretty good after spotting a change to an externally edited file and 
rerenders accordingly.  There are times when you need to stop and 
restart it to pick up changes (most obviously when a lua script changes 
that changes what's in the database), but they're fairly rare.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] landcover=trees

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 16/08/2015 21:27, Lester Caine wrote:
The tree areas that are within the farmland area are NOT now farmland 
and probably never were


Can you point to a tree area within farmland?  I couldn't see one when 
I had a quick look.  It's slightly confusing because the multipolygon is 
pulling the landuse tag from the outer, but it is a multipolygon.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Paths and Footways

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 16/08/2015 22:04, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 16 August 2015 at 22:57, ajt1...@gmail.com ajt1...@gmail.com wrote:

Until I provided a counter-example there, the only example on
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747 was of a
well-mapped central European city.  If there is evaluation of the results in
both rural and urban settings in multiple countries, it's not getting posted
to Github.

This is the PR only, other areas were discussed in the corresponding
issue: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/211

... which contained examples from Krakow, Krakow, Krakow, suburban 
Vancouver* and urban Vancouver, so yes - a slight improvement, but a 
very first-world-centric selection.


* which illustrates what's been lost nicely: 
http://b.tile.openstreetmap.org/13/1288/2799.png



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Re: [Talk-GB] Paths and Footways

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 16/08/2015 18:26, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi all,

Given that paths and footways are now rendered the same way in the 
default OSM style I wonder whether it is time to look at how the map 
can provide better information.


For rural mappers tagging a path/footway as unpaved surface results in 
it having less prominence on the map. As most major public rights of 
way are unpaved this makes these paths harder to view on the default 
OSM map.


Some possible changes:

1. Render all paths/footways that are tagged as 
designation=public_footpath (or other RoW) more prominently.


Are we talking about OSM-Carto here?  That's by definition an 
international style and I don't think that rendering 
designation=public_footpath outside of England and Wales makes a lot of 
sense, although it would make sense as a local style for England and 
Wales (you've mentioned that as a possibility recently).  I don't know 
how far the core paths network in Scotland has progressed either on 
the ground or in OSM, but perhaps some variant based on that could work 
up there.


2. Render those paths/footways that make up a long distance walking 
route more prominent (relation data).


That makes some sense, but OSM-Carto's biggest problem is that a number 
of the changes over the last year have been dedicated to making 
well-mapped central European urban areas look nice at the expense of 
the rest of the planet.  There's a lot more that would have to be done 
to make OSM-Carto usable for e.g. rural footpaths outside cities.  
There's chapter and verse already in github issues (including not 
rendering foot=yes access=private ways at some zooms and not rendering 
major landscape features such as abandoned railways), so no need to 
repeat here, but a lot of the last year's changes would need to be 
reversed to make the style usable for that purpose.  This doesn't make 
the changes wrong or bad of course; every map style has to decide 
what to show and what not to show - try and show everything and you end 
up with a complete mess.


3. Render based on another tag such as trail visibility [1] or maybe 
we need a brand new tag to indicate path dominance (like we have 
motorway/trunk/primary/etc for roads).


I'm not sure there's room in the presentation of footway etc. for 
this.  I do render (using a modified style based on osm-carto from some 
time ago*) designation and width, but do throw 
footway/bridleway/cycleway/path into the same bucket. 
http://imgur.com/JQGc0YR is an example of that (compare with 
http://tile.openstreetmap.org/13/4061/2663.png ) - red means public 
footpath, blue means bridleway, grey means no designation; and dots 
mean narrow and dashes mean wide.  I suspect that trying to display 
the many values of trail_visibility would be difficult or impossible 
(and what should be the default value where it is not recorded?).


One approach (if we're just talking about raster tiles here) might 
involve transparent overlays**, though that means even more data 
downloaded over what is likely to be a dodgy cellular data connection if 
you're in the middle of a field.  If we're not (and if we're not 
starting from OSM-carto, we don't need to) then other people have 
already suggested something else entirely***.


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)

* See https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style and 
https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/openstreetmap-carto-AJT .  I'm not 
suggesting this is a style for all rural map users of course (it'd be 
rubbish for cyclists, for example).  It's just included as an example of 
the problems of displaying yet more different elements in the data.


** Like the Met Office use on their OpenLayers site (but better than 
that, obviously)


*** The author of http://blog.systemed.net/post/13 for one.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Paths and Footways

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 16/08/2015 21:20, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 16 August 2015 at 21:06, ajt1...@gmail.com ajt1...@gmail.com

That makes some sense, but OSM-Carto's biggest problem is that a number of
the changes over the last year have been dedicated to making well-mapped
central European urban areas look nice at the expense of the rest of the
planet.

I would like to point out that this statement is incorrect. For all
change requests, we always evaluate the consequences for both rural
and urban settings, and changes are always tested on multiple
countries.


Until I provided a counter-example there, the only example on 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/747 was of a 
well-mapped central European city.  If there is evaluation of the 
results in both rural and urban settings in multiple countries, it's not 
getting posted to Github.


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)


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Re: [OSM-talk] History of specific areas

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 13/08/2015 07:22, Maarten Deen wrote:
Is there a tool available to search for the history of items in a 
specific area? OSM History Viewer only works if you have the id of an 
object.


I don't have the id for the node, I just know something was there and 
has been deleted at some point.


If we were talking about ways, then Potlatch 1 would be the way to go, 
but that doesn't work with nodes.  However, you can often get to where 
you need to by guessing something else that would have been added (or 
deleted) at the same time, finding the changeset, and finding the other 
thing that you're looking for there.


Alternatively, someone may have a data extract for the date and area 
that you're interested in - but you'd need to say where and when that 
was, of course.


If none of that works it'll there's the full history planet - see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/History_API_and_Database and the 
links from it (but that'll be a lot of work).


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Retain existing style sheets for UK server

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 08/08/2015 23:24, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

On 8 August 2015 at 22:55, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:

What is the best way of cloning the existing style setup for a UK tile
server?

Some useful resources:

https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/manually-building-a-tile-server-14-04/



and (apologies for stating the bleeding obvious)

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/INSTALL.md

Not tried it, but the version requirements in there don't seem to 
obviously clash with Ubuntu 14.04. 
manually-building-a-tile-server-14-04 uses Mapbox's OSM Bright.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Thrapston viaduct

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 13/07/2015 17:46, Paul Sladen wrote:


Any UK-specific rendering is not going to solve the core issue: that
large numbers of perfectly extent bridges and tunnels are not
rendered;  Most of these old tunnels in Nottingham are not rendered:

   Relation: Tunnels of Nottingham
   http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2446849

It would be preferable to solve the _generic_ problem that affects all
countries, which solves it for everyone at once, and doesn't risk
altering colour choices which are (for better or worse) part of OSM's
current brand image.



This neatly illustrates the problem.  What gets shown on a map has to 
be a trade-off - some people want to see what is beneath their feet but 
most, I suspect, will not.  OSM's standard map is currently trying to 
be the primary feedback mechanism to mappers but also have clear 
design (1).  I genuinely don't believe that you can do both well in one 
map style.


I didn't agree at the time with the decision to not render abandoned 
railways that are significant landscape features, but fully understood 
why it was made - unless we're trying to replicate the old Osmarender 
rendering (shows everything, but looks like an explosion in a crayon 
factory) something has to miss the cut.  At about the time that the 
standard style stopped being useful to me(2) I stopped using it, so 
for me, Thrapston Viaduct never went away (3).


With regard to what a GB map render would show, I know what I'd like 
to see - field boundaries, stiles, public footpaths and bridleways (and 
whether they're over paths or tracks) etc.(4). Public footpaths of 
course are just an England and Wales thing, so that's even more 
parochial than blue motorways and green trunk roads.  Unfortunately 
I suspect what I'd choose works well for a certain type of countryside, 
but less well for town centres (which is why (2) happened in the 
standard style in the first place of course), so I suspect that we'd 
soon hit the same sort of issues as the standard style has, with one 
style being pulled in multiple directions.  In the meantime I'll stick 
with (5), render them locally, and shoe-horn those tiles behind osm.org 
as per (6).


Cheers,

Andy

(1) 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b90b3b054f30f709db7e76d879cc69449206b6fd/CARTOGRAPHY.md


(2) This was more about the fact that it stopped rendering footpaths 
clearly at a useful resolution when planning a longer walk.  Also the 
issue as described in 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/542#issuecomment-44789930 
.


(3) http://imgur.com/3FS8XMV

(4) http://imgur.com/HL0sCsb

(5) https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style and 
https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/openstreetmap-carto-AJT


(6) 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/Your_tiles_from_osm.org



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