Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

[Andrew Errington]

I think this is a rendering issue (i.e. rendering speech instead of
graphics) and as such does not belong in OSM.

The work to convert an arbitrary string into speech belongs in the TTS
engine.

If we start putting IPA strings in OSM then we will start getting arguments
about the "correct" pronunciation. At the very least it is tagging for the
renderer, which we should avoid.

IMHO, of course.

Andrew

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 09:20 Greg Troxel  wrote:

> John Whelan  writes:
>
> > One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
> > abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
> > application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should
> > be able to come up with a generic solution.
>
> Two comments:
>
>   osm norms are to expand abbreviations, as I understand it.  So that
>   should be fixed first
>
>   Even after that, we have ref tags, and there is often a road whose ref
>   is something like "CT 2", "US 1", or "I 95".  I don't really think
>   this should be expanded in the database.  Instead, what's needed is a
>   table in the application, perhaps centrally maintained in OSM, of how
>   to pronounce standardize ref abbreviations.  Putting phonetics of
>   "connecticut" on all use of CT or the expanded name is not reasonable.
>
>
> But I agree this needs help.  I get told to turn on "Court 2" and "Ma
> 2".  Luckily I understand this by now and it actually works ok.  But it
> does need fixing.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Errington]

Yes indeed, otherwise I wouldn't have recorded them.

I'd be happy to hear a better solution for survey points. The naive
approach is to assume that the latitude and longitude of the point in OSM
is the surveyed value, which it should be, but without external
corroboration you can't be sure.

Anyway, my point was it is sometimes appropriate to record explicitly the
latitude and longitude of a point, even though it's redundant. In fact in
that case redundancy is good.

In this general discussion concerning Open Location Code, tagging the
database objects with the OLC is dumb. As soon as someone moves the object
the OLC is wrong. To fix that we could re-tag the object with a new OLC, or
move it back to the place dictated by the OLC. Obviously, we don't want to
move it back (it was moved for a reason), so we could generate a new OLC
tag (from the object's lat/lon), but it's pointless storing that as it can
be easily and trivially calculated on the fly.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 22:23 Andrew Hain  wrote:

> Do you know whether the latitude and longitude on the plaque are in the
> WGS84 that we use?
> --
> *From:* Andrew Errington 
> *Sent:* 11 August 2018 10:56
> *To:* mmd
> *Cc:* Talk Openstreetmap
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add
> the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
>
> I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on
> the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved
> accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed
> location.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd  wrote:
>
> Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> > a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> > data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> > substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> > for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> > of the whole geodata world.
>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude
>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Errington]

I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on
the survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved
accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed
location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd  wrote:

> Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> > a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> > data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> > substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> > for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> > of the whole geodata world.
>
> With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude
>
> --
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ko] NTIC source

[Andrew Errington]

Hello Martijn,

This was probably uploaded by user 'cyana' in 2009. He (or she) announced
it in the following message to my OSM message system (and may have
announced it in other ways: talk-ko didn't exist then).

--- Start of message

massive upload road data
 cyana 
6 July 2009 at 07:47

Dear mappers of South Korea!

I would like to notice in advance to you that I will upload South Korea
Standard road data(source: National Traffic Information Center) to the OSM
server on Wednesday or Thursday (2009-07-08/09).

I spent a month modifying NTIC road data for OSM...

--- message shortened for brevity
At the time, Korea was pretty sparse in terms of road coverage and POIs.
But there was a problem when the import was done. Roads were duplicated and
overlaid, and, obviously, didn't join up with existing roads. Often, chunks
of road from the new data were missing too, so it didn't all join up with
itself.

The NTIC data was not quite up-to-date either. For the last decade or so
Korea has been building roads at an astonishing pace. New major roads have
been constructed. Existing roads have been upgraded, and even minor roads
have been realigned or generally improved. So the NTIC data was useful, but
old, and still a lot of work was required to map Korea.

It's quite possible that some roads tagged 'NTIC' have just been extended
from that import, and the tag has been retained.

Best wishes,

Andrew


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 16:55 Maarten van den Hoven 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On this page of the NTIC website there is a small legal section.
> https://intl.its.go.kr/en/01_01
>
> National Transport System Efficiency ActArticle 89 (Encouragement of
> Private Participation and Advancement into Overseas Markets)
> ④ The Minister of Land, Infrastructure and Transport may designate and run
> an agency dedicated to support work under Article 89.3 above according to
> the Presidential Decree *to support international cooperation and
> overseas market entry of industry related to intelligent transport systems.*
>
> I am not legal expert but to me this implies that it can be used by
> international organisations. However, it doesn't say anything about the
> procedure or how it can be used. I suggest contacting the NTIC about this.
> But as Martijn said earlier, you have to be sure the source is actually
> the National Transport Information Center. Therefore, first contacting the
> users who used that source would be best.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 12:18 PM Martijn van Exel  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 5, 2018, at 20:39, Robert Helvie wrote:
>>
>> Martijn ,
>>
>> If you haven't found it yet, it is the National Transport Information
>> Center
>> https://intl.its.go.kr/index_en
>>
>> Apparently there is an API there for use. But being "national" I suspect
>> the law against transferring Korean geospatial data to places outside
>> Korean control is still the governing factor.
>> You can use the API to look at the data, but I would expect they would
>> frown on the practice of tracing the data into the OSM database.
>>
>>
>> Are you positive this "National Transport Information Center" is the
>> source referred to here?
>> Since there are already more than 40,000 ways (I didn't count nodes) with
>> source=NTIC, I guess people have already done so at some scale. Is there
>> any way to trace back who / what group did this and what permissions, if
>> any, they sought?
>> The best I can do is list the top 5 users who most recently edited ways
>> with source=NTIC:
>>
>> octel
>> lorenzo23622
>> _Jibril
>> 류제건
>> orangelemonjelly
>>
>> Anyone know these folks?
>> --
>>   Martijn van Exel
>>   m...@rtijn.org
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-ja] [Talk-ko] Romanisation: a solution

[Andrew Errington]

Hello Maarten,

I agree with your reasoning that the tag was probably chosen because the
ko-Latn tag was either unknown at the time, or maybe didn't exist.  I searched
for the "correct" tag a few times myself in the past because I suspected
ko_rm was not a recognised language code, but I didn't find a definitive
answer.

I also agree that standards are good in general, so I support the
suggestion to change the ko_rm tag to ko-Latn.  However, I don't know how
many data consumers use the ko_rm tag who would be affected.  I suspect the
number is small because most people in Korea use online maps from Daum and
Naver (the two most popular online portals in Korea).

Regarding the osmKorea group on telegram.me I think it should not be
promoted for two reasons.  Firstly, it seems that the messages can only be
seen with the Telegram app.  They are not visible on a webpage therefore
no-one can read any discussion or contribute without the app.  Secondly,
the OSM community in Korea is small.  Not many people are subscribed to
this list (Talk-ko) and using Telegram will fragment discussions further.
I suppose there is a third reason, and that is the most popular chat
program in Korea is Kakao Talk.

In summary, I support changing ko_rm to ko-Latn, but I don't support using
Telegram for discussion.

Best wishes,

Andrew


On Oct 26, 2017 4:07 PM, "Maarten van den Hoven" 
wrote:

Dear OSM editors,


This email proposes a solution to the Korean and Japanese romanisation
tagging issue. Since this topic concerns both Korea and Japan it is sent to
their respective mailing lists.

The tag for romanised korean is currently "name:ko_rm". However, this is
not the international standard. "ko_rm" was most likely chosen a long time
ago because people at the time were unformiliar with the global standard as
seen here (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Korea_Naming_Convention).
The global standard as defined by the Internet Engineering Task Force here (
https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47) and backed by W3C, Unicode, ECMA is
"ko-Latn" instead of "ko_rm". Adopting a global standard solves confusion
over the use of the tag (http://wiki.openstreetmap.
org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Korea).

This talk has been going on for the past years as seen by the above links
and this one -> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.
ko/204
However, I was unable to find arguments in defense of the "ko_rm" tag.

Therefore, I suggest an edit of the OSM database (following the official
procedure as defined here https://wiki.openstreetmap.
org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct) of changing all "name:ko_rm" tags
to "name:ko-Latn", like Serbia did in the past as well (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Serbia).

Before this change is pushed it is of course important to see if anyone has
objections or other reasons why the "ko_rm" tag was chosen over the
"ko-Latn" tag.

We encourage editors in Korea to join the OSM Korea Telegram chat group
here https://telegram.me/osmKorea.

Kind regards.

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Re: [Talk-ko] Broken (multi)polygons in Korea

[Andrew Errington]

Ok.  I contacted who I thought was the most prolific mapper of forest
outlines.  They said they did it as quickly as possible because it was
important for Koreans to see forested areas on the map.  Now they are
reviewing and improving those polygons.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Mar 15, 2017 5:24 PM, "Andrew Errington" <erringt...@gmail.com> wrote:

As far as I know there has been no import of forest area data.  There is a
prolific mapper who has made rough outlines of forested areas.  Some of
these areas overlap with others.  Some areas intersect with themselves.  I
don't think each area represents anything "on the ground", just a
convenient chunk to draw a line around.

I will contact that mapper and ask about his or her methodology.  There are
other "large area mappers" too.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Mar 15, 2017 4:58 PM, "Jochen Topf" <joc...@remote.org> wrote:

Hi!

there are quite a lot of broken (multi)polygons in the OSM data. I have
started an effort to clean them up. You can find out more at
http://area.jochentopf.com

I found that there are many problems with self-intersections in South
Korea, often on forests. You can see this here:
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=areas=128.02487=36.21680=8

Was there some kind of import? Can you, the Korean community, help with
fixing them? How good is that forest data anyway? Is it worth cleaning
up? I'd appreciate any information and help.

If you are interested, I can also create special Maproulette challenges
or create special data extracts or so to help the Korean community clean
this up?

Jochen
--
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/
+49-351-31778688

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Re: [Talk-ko] Broken (multi)polygons in Korea

[Andrew Errington]

As far as I know there has been no import of forest area data.  There is a
prolific mapper who has made rough outlines of forested areas.  Some of
these areas overlap with others.  Some areas intersect with themselves.  I
don't think each area represents anything "on the ground", just a
convenient chunk to draw a line around.

I will contact that mapper and ask about his or her methodology.  There are
other "large area mappers" too.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Mar 15, 2017 4:58 PM, "Jochen Topf"  wrote:

Hi!

there are quite a lot of broken (multi)polygons in the OSM data. I have
started an effort to clean them up. You can find out more at
http://area.jochentopf.com

I found that there are many problems with self-intersections in South
Korea, often on forests. You can see this here:
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=areas=128.02487=36.21680=8

Was there some kind of import? Can you, the Korean community, help with
fixing them? How good is that forest data anyway? Is it worth cleaning
up? I'd appreciate any information and help.

If you are interested, I can also create special Maproulette challenges
or create special data extracts or so to help the Korean community clean
this up?

Jochen
--
Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/
+49-351-31778688

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Re: [Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

[Andrew Errington]

I think we should remember that we are not mapping Korea for Koreans, we
are mapping it for everybody.

I have an idea how it should work, which would require some software
support, but remember, we have plenty of time, and the data we are putting
in now might not be usable for some time, until the software is ready.
It's important to have a goal, and be patient that it will take some time
to reach it.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Mar 5, 2017 7:21 PM, "Yongmin Hong"  wrote:

> Again, the problem is the software rendering the map data, not the data
> itself. We can agree that Republic of Korea does not use English as an
> official languages, so let's continue here. The global OSM community's
> consensus seem to be using the official language of the given location (for
> example, in New Zealand, where their official language is both English
> and Māori, it makes sense to have both languages in the `name` tag. Same
> for Hong Kong.).[1] But this is not the case for Korea. Korea does not
> recognize English as the official languages. As such, we should be using
> Korean as a main `name` tag, imo. `name` should point to authoritative name
> of a given location, and usually English is not the official name of a
> given location in Korea.
>
> Openstreetmap Wiki ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names ) says...
>
> The common default name. (Note: For disputed areas, please use the name as
> displayed on, e.g., street signs for the name tag. Put all alternatives
> into either localized name tags (e.g., name:tr/name:el) or the variants
> (e.g., loc_name/old_name/alt_name). Thank you.)
>
>
> [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
>
> If you want to change this behavior, you will have to get a consensus on a
> global level.
>
> --
> Yongmin
> https://wp.revi.blog
> Please note that this address is list-only address and any non-mailing
> list mails will be treated as spam.
> Please use https://encrypt.to/0x947f156f16250de39788c3c35b625da5beff197a.
>
> 2017. 3. 5. 17:00 최규성  작성:
>
> As a result, it is against the idea of Yongmin. If OSM was designed only
> for Koreans and by Koreans, it would have been agreeable. But, as many of
> us would agree, OSM is designed as a global map for everyone in the world.
> The map of Italy region is also lack of something. The Korean who can't
> understand Italian (like me) becomes illiterate when I see it, which needs
> to be improved. In this regard, I evaluate that OSM labeling style for
> Korea region is more advanced than that for Italy.
>
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Re: [Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

[Andrew Errington]

Hello,

I agree that name tagging should be fixed, but I don't agree that we have a
solution yet.

Firstly, name=* might not be in Korean language.  I can give several
examples where the name of something in Korea (for example, a shop, or a
restaurant) is in Chinese, English, or French.  So, I think we should not
insist that name=* must always be Korean.

However, it is useful to make a record of the Korean name in name:ko=* even
if it is the same as name=*.  The reason for this is so that we can make a
multilingual map.

I agree that if name=* is a combination of "Korean (English)" it should be
changed, but as an English speaker living in Korea it is very useful for
me, so I am reluctant to make that change.  And if it's useful for me, it
is probably useful for other people.

This brings me to another important point, we must think of the people who
will be using the data.  We must provide data which is properly tagged so
that the map renderer can choose the correct tag to label every road or
street or building for the language chosen by the user.  I think the reason
why name=* was a combination of "Korean (English)" was because we didn't
have renderers that could render in different languages.  Maybe we still
don't, but we should be thinking of the future, as well as the present.

I think we have to have a full discussion before you run your automated
script.  We should also remember that there is no urgency, and we should
not be hasty.

Best wishes,

Andrew


On Mar 4, 2017 4:36 PM, "느림보"  wrote:

I opened new thread to discuss automatic modification of name tag.

For of all, I want to describe background.

Many POIs in Korean region have their name tag in *한국어 (English)* form.
That form had been required for several years for some technical issue (I
don’t the technical issue exactly.) However, the rule was changed on Oct.
2014 by adopting Changwoo’s suggestion.

> It's time to change the policy of name
> =* back to the global rule;
> discard " (English)" and use Korean local name only. Problems of bi-lingual
> "한글 (English)" format are:
>
>- It is against the global rule.
>- It makes map internationalization process difficult, because its
>value cannot be used as default local name.
>- Its bi-lingual format is often not appropriate for default labels.
>- Source: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Korea_Naming_
>Convention
>
> Rule was changed but there was no action for modifying legacy names. It
was the biggest harassment when I joined the community: “There are two
naming rules. *한국어 (English)* form is using without any documented
guideline. Which style should I follow? Can I modify *한국어 (English)* form
to *한국어* form?”



Finally, I decided to write automated script to rename legacy style with
new one.

There must be no losing of information during automated modification. So, I
defined condition of POIs like below:

1) A Korean POI has at least one Hangeul character (and is in Korean
region.)

2) If name tag of a Korean POI is equal to “name:ko (name:en)” then it
is legacy style.

3) If name tag of a Korean POI ends with “(name:en)” then it might be
legacy style.

4) If name tag of a Korean POI is made of “first-part (second part)”,
the first-part contains Hangeul, and the second part doesn’t contain
Hangeul, the it might be legacy style.

Before regional filtering the number of items are

1) 336,336

2) 55,989

3) 84,764

4) 11,621

Detailed review will be required for 4) case, but 11,621 items are not big
for that for me.

Please leave messages If you have any concern or opinion for my suggestion.



느림보 (Nrimbo)

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Re: [Talk-ko] Questionable imagery

[Andrew Errington]

Here's another one from user 'Bucketz', using imagery Custom (
http://xdworld.vworld.kr:8080/2d/Satellite/201612/{z}/{x}/{y}.jpeg)

Not only is he/she using a source they shouldn't, but they are also
screwing up good mapping.

They have only done 20 edits, 6 days and 4 days ago.  The first 5 used Bing
and Mapbox, but then he/she introduced xdworld.  I will send a message
asking what's up, but I don't know if this mapper is Korean, or what
language they use.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 10 February 2017 at 22:18, Robert Helvie  wrote:

> Kyu-sung,
>
> Thanks for the report.
>
> Robert
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 10:05 PM, 최규성  wrote:
>
>> Kyu-sung
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Multilingual feedback wanted for OpenStreetMap Carto

[Andrew Errington]

I really like the Korean text, and I'd love to see it go live.

Regarding the incorrect splitting of names at a hyphen, can this be dealt
with by using the Unicode non-breaking hyphen?
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2011/index.htm

Mappers would have to type the non-breaking hyphen instead of a regular
hyphen, but the renderers should be able to do the right thing if a
non-breaking hyphen is used.  Otherwise someone has to write a whole bunch
of complicated heuristics that would be horrible to maintain.

Unless hyphens in place names should always be treated as non-breaking.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 19 September 2016 at 16:52, Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:

> On 18/09/16 04:32, Paul Norman wrote:
>
> I'm looking for feedback from people who read non-latin languages on a
> proposed OpenStreetMap Carto font change.
>
> We are considering moving to Noto fonts and could use feedback from people
> who can read languages which have non-latin scripts, particularly Asian
> languages. I've made previews in about a dozen different languages at
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-
> carto/pull/2349#issuecomment-247819822 and want to check that there are
> no new problems. We may have to adjust font sizes, but that's a different
> issue.
>
> If you've got feedback, please leave it on https://github.com/
> gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2349
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I noticed a slight bug for the Ukrainian alphabet. A hyphen "-" can be an
> integral part of a town name, as opposite to indication of the division of
> a word at the end of a line.
>
> Here are some examples:
>
> The name of the city of Kamianets-Podilskyi
>  (on Google map is
> written correctly, on the OSM map wrongly, always in two lines):
>
> http://osm.org/go/0hmtaWQg-
> https://www.google.com/maps/@48.6906937,26.5564268,13z?hl=en
>
> The town of Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi
>  (again on Google
> map is written correctly, on the OSM map wrongly, always in two lines):
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/46.1517/30.3499
> https://www.google.com/maps/@46.1562394,30.4138062,11.81z?hl=en
>
> It should be at least as Khanty-Mansiysk
>  in Russian Federation, in
> one line at close zooms:
>
> http://osm.org/go/2xZYTDR-
> https://www.google.com/maps/@61.0084264,69.0622292,12.98z?hl=en
>
> or even better always in one line. For example, we do not write on the map
> the names of New York or San Francisco in two lines.
>
> The names of these towns in Ukrainian are *Кам'янець-Подільський *and 
> *Білгород-Дністровський.
> *They are written normally in one line. These are well-known towns in
> local culture. The first was founded in 12th century, the second in 6th
> century BC (it's one of the most ancient cities of with a continuous
> existence).
>
> Best regards,
> Oleksiy
>
>
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[Talk-ko] South Korea rendering problems

[Andrew Errington]

I am travelling and I don't have access to the admin interface at the
moment, so I am re-posting this message.  Probably it should be discussed
on the github issue page because the original poster is not subscribed to
this list.

Thanks,

Andrew

-- Forwarded message --
From: "Daniel Koć" 
To: talk-ko@openstreetmap.org
Cc:
Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2016 23:26:54 +0200
Subject: South Korea rendering problems
Hello,

I'm one of the people from osm-carto team (default map on OSM website) and
somebody has just reported a problem with placename labels, which seems to
be a problem with tagging:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2275

How do you think it could be fixed?

-- 
"Low, low, low..." [M. Kempa]
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Re: [Talk-ko] Korean Font used in Carto

[Andrew Errington]

Is there a better, free, font?

How about Droid Sans?

Or Noto CJK KR?
http://www.google.com/get/noto/#sans-kore

There are other fonts listed here, together with their license (but not
many samples):
https://www.google.com/fonts/earlyaccess

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 29 June 2016 at 02:36, Max  wrote:

> I think the current font used in the Carto rendering is not readable.
> That's why i submitted a bug to the carto style:
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/2204
> please add your voice.
>
>
> On 2015년 11월 01일 20:45, Max wrote:
>
>> There seems to be some momentum in the development for the rendering of
>> the main OSM style osm carto.
>>
>> Have you noticed any oddities or bugs in Korea?
>>
>> Maybe it's a good time to sumbit a ticket to change the horrible font
>> for Korean? What do you suggest? The Nanum Gothic from Naver is under a
>> free license and is AFAIK the only suitable candidate.
>>
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto
>> Is the place to post issues. I could do that but wanted your input for
>> anything font related.
>>
>> m.
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Unrepentant Vandal

[Andrew Errington]

Thanks everyone.  I'll double-check the resurrected railway line and
keep an eye on it.  I am not impressed by that mapper's work, and I
expect more problems in the future.  The other problems I have seen
are, in many cases, caused by misguided QA tools.  I have had one guy
remove all highway=steps because of a reported routing error.

Presumably the price of free maps is eternal vigilance?  Oh well, best crack on.

Andrew

On 07/11/2015, Andy Townsend <ajt1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/11/2015 10:36, Andrew Errington wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Here is a link to a random point on a light rail system:
>> http://osm.org/go/546Jvddtd--?m=
>>
>> Soon after it opened I travelled on it from end to end, collecting gps
>> data and photos of all the station signs.  There are two railway
>> lines, one in each direction, and I mapped them both carefully.
>>
>> Recently I discovered that someone had helpfully deleted one of the
>> lines and tagged the other with tracks=2.  I really don't think this
>> is acceptable.
>>
>> I found the changeset and asked the user who did it why they destroyed
>> my work.  They replied:
>> "The OSM wiki implies that a single way with tracks=2 is the preferred
>> way of showing rail lines with two tracks. This was the method used
>> most in S. Korea, I was attempting to create consistency."
>>
>> This is not actually true (and I double-checked the wiki, just in
>> case).  I pointed this out but the user did not acknowledge this was a
>> mistake, or offer an apology.
>
> I'd definitely suggest that changeset discussions are the best place to
> have this sort of conversation.  That way, it's visible, so that other
> people can be aware of the problem (and also discussions in public
> tended to be conducted with more politeness).  I'm sure that they
> generally believed that they were doing the right thing, but didn't
> think through the implications of what they were doing on data
> consumers* and other mappers.
>
>  From looking at their edit history, which appears to be wide-ranging, I
> suspect that they're a non-surveying mapper who may not actually have
> been to all of the places that they've edited.
>
>>
>> So, my question is, am I being unreasonable, or am I right to think
>> this is unacceptable?  How can I guard against this?
>
> There are a bunch of "who's been editing where" tools - one that's
> especially worth mentioning is
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_assurance#WhoDidIt which
> looks for changes in an area and can provide an RSS feed.  I also use
> ITO's OSM Mapper http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ITO_World#OSM_Mapper
> .  That works a few days in arrears, but is very useful at helping you
> to visualise what has changed.
>
>> I have no
>> problem with people improving the map by improving the data, but I am
>> starting to see a lot of deletions, incorrect tagging, and generally
>> shoddy work appearing, especially in Korea where I have done a lot of
>> original work.
>
> There might be a couple of issues here.  One possibility is people using
> "QA tools" to identify "problems" and "fixing" them.  We've had a lot of
> issues in GB with this - people changing the tagging on oneway roads in
> carparks incorrectly when the _real_ problem was that not all of the
> roads had been mapped is one example that springs to mind.  Where a QA
> tool identifies a problem, it should really be a prompt to carry out a
> local survey rather than apply a "remote guess" of what might be wrong.
> If I spot a problem like that I'd usually add to the changeset
> discussion of the original mapper, or add an OSM note or a fixme, to try
> and get it looked at properly.  Sometimes not of this works and there
> really are no local mappers, and the problem is bad enough that a remote
> fix really is needed (perhaps a newbie has broken a major road by
> mistake), but it's surely best that edits are done by people who either
> actually are there, or at least have been there.  Previous OSM tags +
> imagery don't always give a full sense of what something actually is.
>
> Related to this is people "correcting" tags that are "wrong".  Often a
> "wrong" tag is a really useful indicator that an inexperienced mapper
> has been active, there are other things besides the "wrong" tag that
> might been checking, and the QA report is a useful indicator of this.
> Fixing the "wrong" tag removes the QA report but leaves the other data
> that doesn't match the real world in OSM.
>
> The other possibility to people causing problems using QA tools is
> actuall

[OSM-talk] Unrepentant Vandal

[Andrew Errington]

Hi all,

Here is a link to a random point on a light rail system:
http://osm.org/go/546Jvddtd--?m=

Soon after it opened I travelled on it from end to end, collecting gps
data and photos of all the station signs.  There are two railway
lines, one in each direction, and I mapped them both carefully.

Recently I discovered that someone had helpfully deleted one of the
lines and tagged the other with tracks=2.  I really don't think this
is acceptable.

I found the changeset and asked the user who did it why they destroyed
my work.  They replied:
"The OSM wiki implies that a single way with tracks=2 is the preferred
way of showing rail lines with two tracks. This was the method used
most in S. Korea, I was attempting to create consistency."

This is not actually true (and I double-checked the wiki, just in
case).  I pointed this out but the user did not acknowledge this was a
mistake, or offer an apology.

So, my question is, am I being unreasonable, or am I right to think
this is unacceptable?  How can I guard against this?  I have no
problem with people improving the map by improving the data, but I am
starting to see a lot of deletions, incorrect tagging, and generally
shoddy work appearing, especially in Korea where I have done a lot of
original work.  Do I have to set up some kind of watch on all of my
contributions and check them if someone edits them?

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-ja] Yahoo data cleanup

[Andrew Errington]

I lived in Japan for a while and did some mapping there.  I also visit
there occasionally and use the map (and add to the map).

The Yahoo! import means that the Japanese mapping is extensive, but it also
means there is a lack of quality.

I think it would be too difficult to revert the Yahoo! import, but,
identifying common problems would be helpful.  New mappers could recognise
the common problems and fix them, which would help them gain experience.

My biggest complaint is that all waterways were imported with layer=-1.  In
my opinion waterways should have no layer tag.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 14 October 2015 at 15:13, Arun Ganesh  wrote:

>
> I've translated your post in Japanese. :-)
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/MAPconcierge/diary/36106
>>
>
> Wonderful! ありがとう :)
>
> From here on, there are some interesting questions for the JA community:
>
>- Has the import data helped Japan map to improve and the community to
>grow? How is the OSM coverage compared to other maps?
>- How to best cleanup the import: continue to leave the data as is? do
>a partial revert to make it easy for new mappers? Organize a nationwide
>mapping movement?
>
> PS:  i'm going to be on vacation in Japan next week to visit my friends in
> Kamogawa[1] and found out SOTM is happening at the same time :D ではまたすぐにね
>
> [1] http://www.makery.info/2015/08/11/hacker-farm-bricoder-dans-le-bled/
>
> --
> Arun Ganesh
> (planemad) 
> 
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Routes

[Andrew Errington]

I am keen to know the right answer.  Last time I tried it I ended up
creating two routes.  One for outbound, and one for inbound.  Having both
together in the same relation was a bit claustrophobic.  I think I found a
discussion somewhere which resulted in the same conclusion, but I can't
remember where.

Best wishes,

Andrew

(That reminds me, our local bus terminal has moved, so I have to un-pick
the bit of the routes that went to the old location and re-direct them to
the new one)

On 8 October 2015 at 11:12, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> I'm trying to add my first bus route. I'm struggling to understand how to
> properly add the relation. The route, like most bus routes, loops back over
> the same ways. So my questions:
>
> If the bus travels over the same way going two different directions, is
> the way added twice to the relationship, which means ignoring the JOSM
> warning message? Or is the way only entered once with just no
> forward/backward direction?
>
> Are there any good tutorials to add bus routes?
>
> Thanks,
> Clifford
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Deletions in Korea

[Andrew Errington]

I agree.  Certainly 32029119 should be reverted.

I contacted the user, but I didn't get a response.  Also, I see that
someone else has queried the NIS building edit, but didn't get a response.

Andrew

On 30 June 2015 at 01:16, Max abonneme...@revolwear.com wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi List,

 the user jbeank did some strange edits.

 he deleted the National Intelligence Service HQ south of Seoul, a kind
 of South Korean CIA.
 http://osmhv.openstreetmap.de/changeset.jsp?id=32029119

 So I looked at some other edits of that user:

 He edited some details along the DMZ, and added a mosque in Daejon
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32003914

 And the border between Turkey and Syria:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/31958075#map=16/36.7058/38.9604

 Which is notable because of

 http://dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2015/Feb-24/288559-missing-korean-teen-at-isis-training-camp.ashx

 I can't quite understand the motivations and connections between the
 edits, but some of this should probably be reverted.

 m.
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1

 iEYEARECAAYFAlWRb2AACgkQ3EB7kzgMM6K0fQCcD64NZMIztv8HbOB656anpQIz
 IHcAn2PHlNEPqRDNGhjPtq8l1QhL8MBY
 =UHoc
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM and CartoDB in use for MERS mapping

[Andrew Errington]

Sorry, slight correction.  It's a map of medical facilities, not cases.
Apologies for any alarm caused.

Andrew

On 17 June 2015 at 12:18, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello,

 You may have heard of the MERS situation in Korea.  A map of cases and
 their location has been published here:

 http://issue.visualdive.co.kr/mers/

 I am pleased to see that OSM is the background layer (I recognised some of
 my work).  It's notable because Korea does have very good map coverage from
 Google, and local companies Daum and Naver, so there are several sources to
 choose from.  It's possible that it was chosen due to the fact that that
 webpage needed to show statistics outside Korea, which Daum and Naver does
 not cover.

 Best wishes,

 Andrew

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[OSM-talk] OSM and CartoDB in use for MERS mapping

[Andrew Errington]

Hello,

You may have heard of the MERS situation in Korea.  A map of cases and
their location has been published here:

http://issue.visualdive.co.kr/mers/

I am pleased to see that OSM is the background layer (I recognised some of
my work).  It's notable because Korea does have very good map coverage from
Google, and local companies Daum and Naver, so there are several sources to
choose from.  It's possible that it was chosen due to the fact that that
webpage needed to show statistics outside Korea, which Daum and Naver does
not cover.

Best wishes,

Andrew
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[OSM-talk] Geofabrik routing validator.

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

The wiki does not explain 'islands', although a tooltip on the geofabrik
webpage explains that it indicates groups of ways not reachable.

In this tiny area there are some hiking trails and sections of track that
clearly *are* reachable, but are marked in purple as an error.

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=routinglon=127.87665lat=35.72049zoom=14opacity=0.63

What is the problem?  Is it a data problem or a mistake in the error
detector?  It could be the access=yes tag (which means access is permitted,
although it's redundant).

Thanks for any insight,

Andrew
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Re: [Talk-ko] Naming conventions in Korea

[Andrew Errington]

I have no real objection to the change, but I must point out that having 
Korean and English in the name=* tag has been extremely useful to me as a 
visitor to Korea.  Other maps show only Korean.  What I would like to see is 
an international version of the map which shows Korean and English for each 
object (street, shop, park, whatever) made from name:ko (name:en).  There 
have been some experiments for this in the past, so maybe it will happen in 
the future.

I am glad there has been some dialog on this.  I wrote the wiki pages 
describing the naming convention in detail, but the original convention was 
chosen long ago based on the same decision made in Japan.  Recently Japan has 
moved away from using Japanese and English in the name=* tag.  Again, this is 
disappointing as the map is useful to me this way, however, hopefully similar 
functionality can be introduced in the future.

I would recommend adding to the Wiki a note about name:ja and name:zh for 
Japanese and Chinese name tags too.  I think ja and zh are the correct 
language codes.

Best wishes,

Andrew


On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 23:14:26 Max wrote:
 There has been nobody coming forward with objections to change the
 naming convention. Please do so if you feel that this is going to be
 too fast or not in the right direction.
 
 Do you disagree with the following for the wiki?
 
 
 
 Korean is the only official language in Korea. Korean is written in
 Hangeul. Street signs often incorporate romanized or translated
 versions of names. Most often they are in English, but Chinese and
 Japanese can also be found. The romanization should follow the Revised
 Romanization of Korean for South Korea, and the McCune–Reischauer
 romanization for North Korea.
 
 name= Name in Hangeul
 name:ko= Name in Hangeul
 name:en= Translation if available, otherwise romanized
 name:ko_rm= romanized
 
 Example
 name=경부고속도로
 name:ko=경부고속도로
 name:en=Gyeongbu Expressway
 name:ko_rm=Gyeongbugosokdoro
 
 
 
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[OSM-ja] Introduction

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

はじめまして。

My name is Andrew, and I have been recently moved to Japan from Korea.  I have 
been mapping on OSM for a long time now, mostly in Korea, but also in other 
places on vacation.

I have started adding detail to my local town.  I live in a remote area in 
Nagano prefecture.  There is already some data here from a Yahoo import, but 
the Yahoo data is not good, and there are many things to add, such as 
restaurants and shops.

よろしくお願いします。

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] API URL cannot be resolved (was Re: Welcome box on the new map page)

[Andrew Errington]

Why can't I upload with JOSM today?  Is it related to the new UI changes?

I get this error:
Failed to open a connection to the remote 
server 'http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/'. Host 
name 'api.openstreetmap.org' could not be resolved. Please check the API URL 
in your preferences and your internet connection.

Has the URL for the API changed?  Nothing has changed at my end.

I notice that api.openstreetmap.org takes me to the map.  Is that right?

Best wishes,

Andrew




On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 10:43:53 Paul Norman wrote:
  From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk]
  Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 1:51 PM
  To: talk@openstreetmap.org
  Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Welcome box on the new map page
 
  Which is why I simply ask that the old layout is made available again as

 that

  only requires access to pages that already exist.

 There would be time costs in supporting the code for what are essentially
 duplicates of other pages. You have to test every change against both sets
 of pages, and then there is the distinct code that appears in one but not
 the other.

  What is currently being offered is probably acceptable to users who are
  there with a view to contributing, and then requiring registration makes
  sense, but for the vast majority of visitors brought here by USERS of
  the data it's just not right.

 In EWG I brought up the opinion that a UI change should be evaluated on a)
 how well it converts visitors to mappers b) how well it retains
 visitors. Of course these are hard to measure, and it's not like the old
 site was rigerously evaluated against these criteria.

 The new site seems to be much better at directing visitors into becoming
 mappers. I have also shown it to inexperienced and new mappers and they
 found it an improvement.

  I know that there is a lot of support for NOT providing services

 I'd say there's a wide desire for offering services like OWL and routing
 on OSM.org. Of course, these take development hours, time, and money, so
 a wide desire doesn't translate into actually adding the services.

  but until a suitable replacement can be created for the many thousands of

 us

  using embeded maps, maintaining usable operation is important. The
  current changes are not compatible with using the embed function so THAT
  should have beendepricated first and time provided for us to make
  changes to existing usage!

 I looked at the embed HTML generated, and I don't see what doesn't work.
 All the links are valid, and the page that you land (the front page)
 seems more likely to covert the visitor to a mapper, because it now
 gives some text to explain where they've ended up.


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Re: [OSM-ja] Busan入れてます

[Andrew Errington]

Welcome to Korea!

My name is Andrew and I have been mapping a lot in Korea.
Unfortunately there are very few mappers working in Korea.  Our
progress is slow but steady.

If you have any suggestions to improve the map, or how to encourage
more people to become mappers, please tell me.

よろしくお願いします.

Andrew

2013/11/6 Hiroshi Miura(osmf) miur...@osmf.jp:
 三浦です。

 私も釜山に行く予定があります。残念ながらマッピングする時間はなさそうです。
 折角の成果を活用させてもらうと思います。

 アジア向けに、中国語、韓国語を含めたマップができると良さそうです！



 ribbon o...@ns.ribbon.or.jp wrote:

 ちょっと行ってきたので、Busan(釜山)入れてます。

 1) 主要道路、鉄道はだいたい入っています。
 2) 建物はほとんど入っていません。
 3) POIも余り入っていません。なぜか病院は多いです。
 4) wayのsourceタグはあまり入っていません。
 5) 名前については当然ながらハングルです。が、ハングル(英語)がとても多いです。
 6) name:en とかのタグは相当入っています。
 7) Bingの写真はありますが、斜めになっていて使いにくいです。

 主要部分の道路はかなり広く、名古屋みたいな感じです。
 超高層の建物が多いですね。
 古い建物と新しい建物が結構混在しています。

 oota

 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers

[Andrew Errington]

On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 02:59:19 Craig Wallace wrote:
 Note MySociety do not use boundaries from OSM for the UK for their
 projects. Instead they just use boundaries from OS OpenData.
 I think this is an example of where a separate database makes sense. ie
 with the complete, up to date OS OpenData boundaries, in a format
 compatible with OSM.

In my opinion this is an example where OSM data is broken and should be fixed.

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Geotag OsmAnd picture notes

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 22:13:30 Lambert Carsten wrote:
 It turns out the pictures ARE geotagged. Some are fine but some are way
 off. The info recorded in the OsmAnd gpx file is correct and is what I
 want to use. Maybe I need to strip the existing geotags before Josm or
 some other program will look into OsmAnd's file and use it's data. But
 GPS-correlate that I would use for this, has disappeared so I first
 need to find a replacement for that.

In JOSM, when you correlate images to the GPX file you can select Override 
position for: Images with geo location in exif data.

So, if you have a GPX file, and a bunch of correctly timestamped photos, won't 
this do what you want?

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Developing Countries Address Problem

[Andrew Errington]

Korea recently (about 5 years ago) moved from a block-based address
system (like Japan has), to a street-name based system, such as the UK
and US have.  Streets and roads across the entire country were named
(most didn't have a name), new street signs were installed and new
house number plaques were attached to buildings and gates.  It was a
massive undertaking, but it's now complete.  The post office will
still deliver to old-style addresses, but obviously these will fade
from use over time.

I suppose my point there is that the house-number+street-name address
system might be the most obvious one for you, but if you don't have
street names then you must get local government and local people
involved.

The upside is that you can offer a working system to record these
addresses once they are defined: OSM.  Once they are recorded then you
get free mapping, free lookup and geocoding, and free routing.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 04/09/2013, bimal maharjan hakubi...@gmail.com wrote:
 @Martin

 That is the problem we have in our place. We do not get mails or letters in
 our home because our home cannot be identified. If somehow identified it
 cannot navigated and reached. We can't receive the mails and letters let
 alone any other benefits of having proper address system.

 Cheers!
 Bimal


 On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:




 2013/9/4 bimal maharjan hakubi...@gmail.com

 Hi All,

 I think my last email was not clear.

 I am from Nepal and we do not have standard address system (let alone
 online) .I want to know how this problem can be solved and how the same
 problem has been solved in other developing countries. Perhaps some must
 be
 working for it.

 I am researching to find out about the organizations or professionals or
 start ups who are working to solve the problem of no standard and
 accessible address system in the developing countries.



 how does addressing work in your region? What has someone to write on a
 letter to make sure it arrives at your place? Maybe people are sending
 letters to post offices or pubs or shops and the addressee will then pick
 it up?

 cheers,
 Martin




 --
 Cheers!
 Bimal


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Re: [OSM-talk] Double-clicking on OSM map does not centre the map

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 23 Jul 2013 00:26:37 Shaun McDonald wrote:
 The double click to centre currently works in leaflet at the maximum zoom.

 Shaun

I'm afraid it doesn't.  It depends where you double-click, and it seems to 
move the clicked point half-way towards the centre, which is inconsistent 
with other zoom levels (where the clicked point remains at the same 
location).

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Double-clicking on OSM map does not centre the map

[Andrew Errington]

It used to be that if you double-clicked on the map it would re-centre
on the clicked point and zoom in by one level.  Now it doesn't.  It
zooms in, but doesn't re-centre the map.  When did this behaviour
change?  Is it desirable?

I don't like it because now I can't centre the map (by
double-clicking) and make a markerlink (by editing the permalink
lat/lon to mlat/mlon).

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 15:16:10 James Mast wrote:
 I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the long/short links to
 the map location behind buttons.  Instead of just one click to get the map
 location, now it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down work
 for me. :(

 -James

I miss the zoom slider, and I also agree that permalink should remain on 
top, accessible with one click.  Also, my proposal for including 
a markerlink has not been taken up.

I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another fait accompli.

And there's no attribution.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:39:18 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Andrew Errington wrote:
  Also, my proposal for including
  a markerlink has not been taken up.

 Yet. Rome wasn't built in a day.

  I also didn't see any consultation on this topic.  Just another
  fait accompli.

 Hey Andrew, I noticed you did some edits to the map the other day. That's
 fine, but you didn't give everyone a chance to comment on them before doing
 them. I think some of the tagging you used could have been improved, and
 your geometry is a bit off. Also, that road was arguably a highway=track,
 surface=asphalt, but you tagged it as highway=service. Please make sure to
 carry out full consultation before doing any edits. You just did them as a
 fait accompli and I think that's wrong.

 ...Exactly.

Not entirely.  I do get your point, but if you are not happy with my work then 
feel free to correct it.  It is a do-ocracy after all.  Except for some 
things.  If it really was a do-ocracy I'd turn on the zoom slider and 
implement a markerlink.

 These things are discussed, and discussed openly. It's just that the forum
 for discussion is not the bearpit that is talk@ (with good reason); that,
 pretty obviously, we don't wait to get the approval of every single OSM
 user before deploying; that we sometimes deploy in-progress work rather
 than waiting for every little detail to be fixed; and that we sometimes
 make changes that some people will never like.

We could at least have had an announcement.

 Because otherwise, the site would never change at all, and we'd still be on
 the Java applet (pre-Potlatch 1) with some barely legible white lines on a
 blurry Landsat background. At the same time as you're posting sceptically
 on this list, SteveC is moaning on Twitter about it being too little, too
 late (bit odd that a founding father spends so much time publicly slagging
 off his project, but there you go, everyone loves him for it). You simply
 can't keep everyone happy.

 OSM works because we trust that talented people will do amazing things. OSM
 trusts you, as a talented mapper, to make good edits in your area. OSM
 trusts the talented developers and sysadmins to do good things with the
 site and the hardware. Some things will happen which are not 100% to your
 liking. Learn to deal with it.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with how OSM is progressing, and I realise 
that such a large project must necessarily move with fits and starts, but I 
reserve the right to state my opinion, positively or negatively.

 Because the alternative is that, every time you make an edit, Andrew, you
 get 30 complaining mails saying well I'd have done it differently, you
 should have asked me first. The effect is that you give up editing.
 Believe me: I have some pretty obvious first-hand experience of this.

I'd be very happy if someone who knows better would come along and tell me the 
best way to do it.  Until then I'll continue as best I can.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Upgraded map controls

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:25:27 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 James Mast wrote:
  I'm personally not liking that they now have hidden the
  long/short links to the map location behind buttons.
  Instead of just one click to get the map location, now
  it's two clicks and is really annoying and slowing down
  work for me. :(

 Ok, I've said this at least three times elsewhere, but for the benefit of
 those reading here:

 The View tab does the same as the Permalink button. Exactly the same.
 Always has. So you can right-click/copy the permalink from there.

That's very cool.  I did not know that.  I probably missed it in the other 
three places you mentioned it too, so I added it to the Wiki in case others 
missed it as well.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik style bug in railway=subway

[Andrew Errington]

Probably you should make an entry in TRAC:
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 16 July 2013 16:43, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote:
 I'm not sure where to report this, I hope someone here can point me in the
 correct direction.
 Have a look at the subwaylines here [1]

 The middle one on the right of the marker is dashed, the top and bottom ones
 are not. All are tagged with tunnel=yes, the only difference is that the two
 that are not dashed have oneway=yes on them.
 It appears that oneway=yes on railway=subway does not get it rendered as a
 tunnel anymore. I think this should be corrected.

 [1]
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51.92378mlon=4.467769zoom=18layers=M

 Regards,
 Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Andrew Errington]

On 11 July 2013 00:27, RainerU ra...@sfr.fr wrote:
 Am 10.07.2013 15:50, schrieb Serge Wroclawski:

 Let's take a two examples: 1) Routing on the main site.  2) Addressing
 missing from OSM

 We should not start with the most difficult tasks. Lets take something easy,
 which exists, but is not accessible for non-initiated people: creating a 
 marker
 and share it by mail. This is the most asked for function by people from 
 outside
 the project an up to now I just can tell: It's easy. Go to the export tab, 
 chose
 HTML incorporable, set the marker, copy the text in the output field and
 extract the string after the href attribute.

I don't think this procedure is easy for most people.  I think it
would be easier to have something like 'permalink', maybe called
'markerlink'.  If you click on 'markerlink' you would get a URL with
mlat and mlon set to the centre of the map view.  You could copy and
paste this into email or chat or whatever.

I proposed this idea to the Mapnik team, and I wrote the code to do
it, but it was rejected.

I think if we had clickable POIs it would be better- I would expect a
right-click to offer a menu which would include the option to make a
permalink for the POI, or left-click would pop up a window with more
details of the POI and had a option within it to make a permalink.

The more I use Naver maps (a mapping service from the Korean web
portal Naver) the more I like what they have done and they way they
do it.  The URL is http://map.naver.com/ and although it's all in
Korean you can click around and play with a few features.

Just off the top of my head, here are some things you can do:
* clickable POIs
* highlight POIs (all restaurants, all banks, all gas stations etc.)
* on-screen ruler (draw a line and it calculates the length)
* routing (provides driving directions, cycling directions, walking
directions and bus and train journey details.  It also estimates the
taxi fare for that journey)
* aerial photo view
* street view

I think it's better than Google maps, and there is another Korean
portal called Daum with similar features
(http://map.daum.net/?t__nil_bestservice=map).  I have also mentioned
before, just recently, that Naver has an attribution for OSM, but I
don't know how they are using OSM data.

Having said that, I like to use the OSM main map a lot of the time.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] OSM attributed by Korean firm Naver.

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

I noticed recently that an OSM attribution has appeared at the bottom
right on Korea's Naver mapping service.  Naver is a Korean internet
portal which is very popular here (er, in Korea).

I don't know exactly what Naver is using OSM for, since I always
assumed they acquired and maintained their own data (including their
own streetview images).

See the attribution for yourselves at:
http://map.naver.com/

I don't know what you'll see, as Naver uses IP geolocation to estimate
your starting position.  Maybe outside Korea you'll be presented with
Seoul.

Another popular web portal is Daum.  They have a map service
(including streetview) but they don't acknowledge OSM, so they
probably aren't using it:
http://map.daum.net/?t__nil_bestservice=map

Interesting?

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Permalink with marker

[Andrew Errington]

Replying to myself, just to keep the thread together.

I submitted a TRAC ticket, but it was rejected.  I'm a little
disappointed, especially as I wrote some code to do it.  Yes, we could
have something better later, but we could have something useful now.
Oh well.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On 23 May 2013 15:01, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello,

 On the main map at osm.org there is a 'permalink' hyperlink, which generates
 a URL encoding the current view of the map.  It is easy to change this into
 a marker link by editing the URL and changing lat and lon to mlat and
 mlon.

 Would it be beneficial to add another hyperlink which will do this
 automagically?  Maybe called markerlink, which produces a URL containing
 mlat and mlon.

 I know it means work for someone, but if it's a good idea then hopefully it
 can be implemented easily.  I don't know if it's been suggested before, but
 if such a feature were available I would use it a lot.  I often make my own
 OSM marker links to send to people by editing the permalink URL, so I'd
 appreciate a one-click function to do this.

 Comments please.  If it's a good idea I will submit it to OSM trac.

 Thanks,

 Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Key Proposal wheelchair:toilet

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 21:26:26 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 the suggestion for a toilet attribute on a POI according to
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets is toilets,
 that's why I suggest you change the wording in your proposal to plural.
 IMHO the most logical way would be toilets:wheelchair=yes/no but
 wheelchair:toilets is currently used far more often.

Yes!  I don't understand why people ignore the wiki.

Tagging is already defined for amenity=toilet (wheelchair=yes/no/limited), why 
not use that?

wheelchair:toilets is not even documented, so why is it used more often?

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Permalink with marker

[Andrew Errington]

Hello,

On the main map at osm.org there is a 'permalink' hyperlink, which
generates a URL encoding the current view of the map.  It is easy to change
this into a marker link by editing the URL and changing lat and lon to
mlat and mlon.

Would it be beneficial to add another hyperlink which will do this
automagically?  Maybe called markerlink, which produces a URL containing
mlat and mlon.

I know it means work for someone, but if it's a good idea then hopefully it
can be implemented easily.  I don't know if it's been suggested before, but
if such a feature were available I would use it a lot.  I often make my own
OSM marker links to send to people by editing the permalink URL, so I'd
appreciate a one-click function to do this.

Comments please.  If it's a good idea I will submit it to OSM trac.

Thanks,

Andrew
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Re: [OSM-talk] Permalink with marker

[Andrew Errington]

Hi,

I think that's slightly different to what I had in mind.  My suggestion was
to make a very simple way to make a map marker.  For example, if a friend
asks me where a restaurant is, or a park, I want to go to the map and
quickly create a link with a marker to send to my friend. I can paste the
link into email, or Facebook, or any chat program.

I can do this right now, but I need to edit the long permalink (or add ?m
to the short permalink).  I'd like to skip this step.

Thanks,

Andrew



On 23 May 2013 15:40, christian.pietz...@googlemail.com 
christian.pietz...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi
 this would be really great. Another good thing would be if you could
 generate a permalink for searched areas.for example: if you search vor 
 Berlin
 and click on the first entrance the border Berlin city will be shown on the
 map
 Maybe it would be possible to have a small Link symbol next to the search
 results.

 greetings
 Christian


 2013/5/23 sabas88 saba...@gmail.com




 2013/5/23 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com

 Hello,

 On the main map at osm.org there is a 'permalink' hyperlink, which
 generates a URL encoding the current view of the map.  It is easy to change
 this into a marker link by editing the URL and changing lat and lon to
 mlat and mlon.

 Would it be beneficial to add another hyperlink which will do this
 automagically?  Maybe called markerlink, which produces a URL containing
 mlat and mlon.

 I know it means work for someone, but if it's a good idea then hopefully
 it can be implemented easily.  I don't know if it's been suggested before,
 but if such a feature were available I would use it a lot.  I often make my
 own OSM marker links to send to people by editing the permalink URL, so I'd
 appreciate a one-click function to do this.

 Comments please.  If it's a good idea I will submit it to OSM trac.


 I like it, but should be considered also into the url shortening part
 (now if you add marker via mlon and mlat and  make a shorturl it transforms
 it in lon and lat..)


 Thanks,

 Andrew


 Regards,
 Stefano



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Re: [OSM-talk] Permalink with marker

[Andrew Errington]

I don't think it's any easier for the end user.  Instead, it causes the same 
problem for people who *don't* want a marker, plus the 'permalink' feature is 
already well-established.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Thu, 23 May 2013 18:03:54 Richard Mann wrote:
 Easiest of all would probably be to include the marker by default, and let
 people edit it out if they don't want it.

 Richard

 On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Andrew Errington 
erringt...@gmail.comwrote:
  Hi,
 
  I think that's slightly different to what I had in mind.  My suggestion
  was to make a very simple way to make a map marker.  For example, if a
  friend asks me where a restaurant is, or a park, I want to go to the map
  and quickly create a link with a marker to send to my friend. I can paste
  the link into email, or Facebook, or any chat program.
 
  I can do this right now, but I need to edit the long permalink (or add
  ?m to the short permalink).  I'd like to skip this step.
 
  Thanks,
 
  Andrew
 
 
 
  On 23 May 2013 15:40, christian.pietz...@googlemail.com 
 
  christian.pietz...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi
  this would be really great. Another good thing would be if you could
  generate a permalink for searched areas.for example: if you search
  vor Berlin and click on the first entrance the border Berlin city will
  be shown on the map
  Maybe it would be possible to have a small Link symbol next to the
  search results.
 
  greetings
  Christian
 
 
  2013/5/23 sabas88 saba...@gmail.com
 
  2013/5/23 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com
 
  Hello,
 
  On the main map at osm.org there is a 'permalink' hyperlink, which
  generates a URL encoding the current view of the map.  It is easy to
  change this into a marker link by editing the URL and changing lat
  and lon to mlat and mlon.
 
  Would it be beneficial to add another hyperlink which will do this
  automagically?  Maybe called markerlink, which produces a URL
  containing mlat and mlon.
 
  I know it means work for someone, but if it's a good idea then
  hopefully it can be implemented easily.  I don't know if it's been
  suggested before, but if such a feature were available I would use it
  a lot.  I often make my own OSM marker links to send to people by
  editing the permalink URL, so I'd appreciate a one-click function to
  do this.
 
  Comments please.  If it's a good idea I will submit it to OSM trac.
 
  I like it, but should be considered also into the url shortening part
  (now if you add marker via mlon and mlat and  make a shorturl it
  transforms it in lon and lat..)
 
  Thanks,
 
  Andrew
 
  Regards,
  Stefano
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)

[Andrew Errington]

How about et al.?

On Thu, 02 May 2013 06:58:35 Alex Barth wrote:
 Paul - sorry, yeah. Not talking to ODC but I'll make sure to run by LWG.

 On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:
   From: Alex Barth [mailto:a...@mapbox.com]
   Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:57 PM
   Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark
  
   Thanks for weighing in everyone. Based on the discussion, here are the
   immediate adjustments I'm seeing shaking out from this thread:
  
   1. Don't mandate, but recommend/offer attribution mark
   2. Make it clear that /copyright is scrollable
   3. Let's do an alt text to make sure we're on Google's radar ;)
   4. Make sure mark is easy to embed
 
  A 5th point was that it wasn't clear that the mark complies with ODbL
  4.3.
 
  Have you sought the opinion of the ODC as to what they intended by that
  section?



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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 02:11:28 Hans Schmidt wrote:
 Am 25.03.2013 17:48, schrieb Christian Quest:
  Here is a quick and dirty rendering on the junction=yes + name=* tags
  that will make visible the 1800+ nodes overpass found mostly in Korea:
 
  http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=37.40505lon=127.12573

 This is exactly what I was asking for. Just put a rectangle around it,
 and that’s all. :)

Yup, it looks fine.

With or without a rectangle is ok.

Again, here's the link to the images I posted yesterday with some screenshots 
of Daum and Naver maps (Korean internet portals).  One is just a label, the 
other is a label in a rectangle.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:junction#Named_junctions_in_Korea

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 01:48:31 Christian Quest wrote:
 I wanted to try rendering those crossroad names so I've had a quick
 look in Korea, near Seoul and found many nodes with names around
 intersecting highways.

 Example: http://osm.org/browse/node/414684650

 What is the current tagging scheme for crossroad names ? junction=yes ?
 Is it used in countries where crossroad names are meaningful and worth
 rendering on a map ?

 Based on the few data I've looked at, there are nodes with names but
 not connected to highways and without any tag allowing to say this
 looks like a crossroad name that I should render.

That's how it is I'm afraid, and that is a good example.  I'd suggest that 
node needs an additional tag - junction=yes - as described in the wiki to 
make it very clear.  It should also be merged with the node at the 
intersection of the two ways that actually form the crossroads.

There are many 'floating nodes' like this, which are not attached to any way.  
They are from an import that was done a couple of years ago.  Some of these 
nodes are near ways, and should be merged into the way.  Some of them are not 
near anything, but there is probably a road there that hasn't been drawn yet.  
Since they are from an import they should probably be verified by local 
mappers before being attached to a way, especially as there is also a *huge* 
amount of redevelopment happening here almost constantly.  We could argue 
that without that import things would be better, but then there'd be nothing 
to see.  Korea is a bit of a mess really, but it's moving on slowly.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:30:58 Vladimir Vyskocil wrote:
  That's how it is I'm afraid, and that is a good example.  I'd suggest
  that node needs an additional tag - junction=yes - as described in the
  wiki to make it very clear.  It should also be merged with the node at
  the intersection of the two ways that actually form the crossroads.

 But how to deal with complex crossroads where there's not a single point of
 junction, but many (oneway or not) lanes crossing at different points ? A
 relation with type=junction referencing all the crossing points and
 carrying the name of the whole crossroad ?

Maybe that would work.  We do need that in Korea, as there are many 
dual-carriageways crossing other dual-carriageways with slipways between 
them.  Drivers using any road would need to see the name of the approaching 
junction, but it's the same name.  Right now I think each junction node is 
just tagged with the same information.

I can raise the issue on the talk-ko list to get more input, but really, a 
simple and obvious solution like this could be used right away.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 19:23:40 Janko Mihelić wrote:
 2013/3/26 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com

  Yup, it looks fine.
 
  With or without a rectangle is ok.

 What about traffic lights? Is it necessary to see them behind the label?

 Here you can see Google doesn't hide traffic lights:
 http://goo.gl/maps/BgxjN

 And the rectangle makes the junction label different from other labels, so
 you know what they represent.

I think this is a rendering issue.  If the data indicates that there is a name 
for this junction *and* there are traffic lights then the renderer can render 
a label, a traffic light icon, or both (or nothing).  It comes down to to the 
capabilities of the renderer, and the person who decides what's important to 
render.

I like the rectangle around the label.

I think this discussion is about two things:

1) How do we record the fact that a junction has a name?
2) If the junction is named, can OSM Mapnik show a nice label?

For 1), I think the simple method stated in the wiki (junction=yes) is good 
enough. (or any value of junction=*).  I also think that a relation is good 
enough for the case where a named junction covers a large area with many 
possible transition points.

For 2) I would appreciate it if OSM Mapnik would show a label if the name was 
properly recorded.  I realise that it's easy to make such a request, but that 
someone somewhere has to do some work to make it happen.

There may be other renderers that *do* show a label for a named junction right 
now, but I don't know what they are.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:45:28 Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Are you in touch with mappers in Japan or Korea, and if so, what is
 their opinion regarding intersection names? Are they waiting for someone
 to tell them what to do, or have they invented some kind of hack to add
 this (according to you) very important information? If they haven't,
 then why not?

*I* am mapping in Korea.  I would like to see intersection names rendered on 
the map.  In fact, a long time ago I read about it in the wiki, which claimed 
that junction=yes can be used in conjunction with a name=* tag:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction

Naturally, I assumed that a named junction would be labelled on the map, since 
what is the point of recording something if it's not used?  Also if something 
is documented in the wiki then it's real, and can be relied upon.  As it 
turns out, this is not the case, so what's the point?

I suggested to Hans that he could enter a suggestion in the OSM Mapnik 
rendering trac database, as described here: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapnik

Since, according to the wiki To report bugs or graphical suggestions for the 
main map on the OSM webside, do so in the 'mapnik' component of OSM's trac

That's exactly what he did.  So what else is he supposed to do?  Perhaps the 
wiki should be edited to state don't bother making graphical suggestions 
because the system is too unwieldy now and we dare not change it.

And it *is* important.  In my original reply to Hans I said that I showed the
osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction
to orient herself with the map, but it wasn't labelled.  

Mapping in Korea is going very slowly, not because of this issue of course, 
but because there is no *need* for OSM.  Koreans have great mapping services 
via the portal sites Daum and Naver.  They both blow Google and other mapping 
services out of the water.  I'm still happy to contribute to OSM as I 
recognise its long-term importance though.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 03:28:04 malenki wrote:
 Am Sun, 24 Mar 2013 18:15:19 +0100

 schrieb Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de:
  Am 24.03.2013 16:15, schrieb malenki:
   Since you didn't go into details in you OP, where from should I know
   this?
 
  Well, I mentioned it some weeks before. I didn’t want to write
  anything again, because this should have been just a running-up
  thread for the bug tracker.

 A link to the post would have done.

  page. Imagine if a German person would like to see the map of Russia?
  Should he then first search for the Russian OSM page? Why not just
  use one map for everything?

 If I have a look at Japanese or Korean regions with osm.org I still
 wouldn't miss the names of the crossroads :)

That's because you are not Korean.

I added some samples of Korean mapping service renderings of an area in Korea:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:junction#Named_junctions_in_Korea

As you can see, a small label is present on the junction at centre-right of 
the images.

Daum has it as 법원사거리 in a small white box.
Naver has it as two lines in a slightly different colour:
법원
사거리

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 19:29:47 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Andrew Errington wrote:
  That's exactly what he did.  So what else is he supposed to do?  Perhaps
  the wiki should be edited to state don't bother making graphical
  suggestions because the system is too unwieldy now and we dare not
  change it.

 No-one has said that. There is an active effort to change it, as Tom
 pointed out:

 [quoting Tom]

 | The problem is that the original XML stylesheet is all but impossible
 | to edit which is why it is being redeveloped in carto and preparations
 | are being made for deployment of that redeveloped version.

 Please don't use unnecessarily pejorative language like we dare not and
 thereby denigrate those who _are_ working hard to do something about it.

It's hyperbole, but I apologise.  My point is there is nothing to say that 
implementation of any suggestions will be stalled for a while because a new 
system is under development.  Not everyone reads the mailing list, and those 
who do may not remember that someone mentioned OSM Mapnik is fiddly, and a 
new, better, system is being worked on.  It would seem that the typical, 
well-meaning user enters a request and sees nothing happening, and that is an 
issue.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Attribution required?

[Andrew Errington]

Hello,

I noticed this site is using OSM via MapBox:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/8352035/Map-of-NZs-best-swimming-holes

Should 'stuff.co.nz' add attribution to the map as described here?
http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

i.e. add “© OpenStreetMap contributors” on the slippy map, probably in the 
corner where it says © Stuff interactives.

If so, why.  Or why not?

If they should, I will email 'stuff.co.nz' with a link to the OSM copyright 
page, unless somebody else wants to.

It's a nice map, and it's nice to see OSM being used.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 22:22:52 moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
 On 22 February 2013 09:51, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote:
  Am 21.02.2013 17:47, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo:
  [...]
  Besides, I actually think that adding the redundant name:XX tag is
  actually simpler than modifying the code of many renderers to take
  something completely new into account. On the other hand, it should be
  very easy to check that if a place has at least one name:xx tag, it
  should also have one that matches the name tag either inside the editor
  or via a bot.
 
  Not sure about that.
  Up to know (as far as I know) some areas of the world decided to use a
  combination of two languages or name transcriptions in the name tag, like
  Japan [1] or Brussels [2]. A bot would contradict a working local
  community decision here, why I would oppose to automatically enforce that
  by a bot or to show that as en error by default.

 You're right, that's a false-positive right there. It could be fixed
 by improving the heuristic, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.
 JOSM users are used to ignore some types of validator warnings, and I
 dare hope that any bot admin wouldn't let it run without carefull
 checking.

  This might change as soon as the most prominent/important osm maps like
  our mapnik rendering support setting the language like in Jochens
  Multilingual Map project, but up to then it's IMHO a bad idea to enforce
  tag wars in multilanguage areas due to bugs raised by some bot that
  tries to enforce a name:xx being equal to name.

 Looking forward to that, but it'll probably be a while before we have it ?

 But even if all renderers become multilingual, as long as there is a
 plain name tag, there'll be arguments about which language to put in
 it.

I have been thinking about this for a long time.  I mostly map in Korea, where 
we have adopted the format name=Korean (English) together with the separate 
parts in name:ko=* and name:en=*.  In some places there are official signs 
with Chinese, Japanese and other languages too, which can be added in 
name:xx=*.

Sometimes I think having multiple languages in name=* is a Good Thing, 
sometimes not.  And if I was going to recommend something I think it has to 
have a simple and obvious rule.  I now think it *is* a Good Thing, and here's 
why.

I recently travelled to Laos.  Laos has its own language (Lao), but for a time 
it was a French protectorate, and these days English is not uncommon.  Many 
of the road signs in the capital, Vientiene, are written in Lao script and 
French.  In another town I visited, Luang Prabang, they are written in Lao 
and English.  Similarly, businesses are often signed in Lao and French or 
English.

From the point of view of a visitor, it would be very useful to me if OSM's 
Mapnik map was labelled with whatever is printed on the sign.  Then, as I 
walk around, I can read the signs and see the same thing on my map.  Even if 
I don't speak the language I can match the symbols.  As a mapper, I can do 
this by setting name=* to whatever is on the sign (which may be Lao only, or 
Lao and another language).  I can also tag name:lo and name:fr or name:en 
with the separate parts of the name taken from the sign.

So, if I had to suggest an easy-to-follow set of rules for multilingual 
tagging I'd suggest the following:

1: name=*   Whatever is written on the sign (with several languages if 
present)
2: name:xx=*Whatever is written on the sign in a single language.
3: name:xx=*can be added for any language even if it's not on the sign.

I'd also add that it's okay to have redundant tags, i.e. in England the names 
are generally in English only, so name=* == name:en=*, but that it's also 
okay to omit this, i.e. renderer requests name:en=*, but it's not available, 
so name=* is returned.

In Laos, I picked up a Japanese version of the Vientiene tourist map.  
Everything was labelled in katakana (a phonetic Japanese script).  I wish we 
could just import it...

Best wishes,

Andrew

PS I just wanted to add that I am using OSM exclusively now for all my local 
tourist activities.  I use a guide book (or WikiVoyage) to tell me what's fun 
and interesting to do, and OSM to help me find it.  If OSM is not good enough 
then I add more detail when I get there.  Actually, I'd like to thank the 
Munich contributors for helping me find things in the city and get around 
very easily last time I was there.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 05:54:16 Hans Schmidt wrote:
 Hello,

 I just wondered if there is something productive in the making
 concerning the crossroad names, or did it somehow end without anything?

 How can I participate?

 Thanks.

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If you want OSM Mapnik to render something differently you need to submit a 
trac ticket.  The instructions are here (3rd paragraph):
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapnik

I agree that there is a need for this, and I am happy with the simplicity of 
using junction=yes and name=*.  If you don't submit a trac request, I will, 
but the link to trac is not working for me:
trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnikorder=iddesc=1

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:46:45 Floris Looijesteijn wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Andrew Errington 
erringt...@gmail.comwrote:
  I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it.  It's not a locality,
  nor
  is it really a place.  It's a junction, with a name.
 
  I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next
  step would be to get it rendered.

 Where would you place this node if it is a more complex crossing?
 Like a crossing of 2 roads with dual carriage ways?

That is a very good question.

If we have a normal crossroads junction (or T) then there is a single node at 
the point where the two ways cross (or meet).

If we have a crossroads with dual carriageways then there are four nodes where 
the roads cross.

In Korea we also have named junctions at overpasses, so the junction name is 
where the two roads cross (or meet) but they physically don't join because 
one road is on a bridge over the other, and there are sliproads to move 
between them.

The first case is very easy.  The single node is tagged junction=yes, and 
name=*

The second case we could tag all four nodes.  Or put a single node in the 
middle, but then it's not obviously related to the junction.  Or put all four 
nodes in a relation.  Or draw a closed way (area) covering the junction.

In the third case we could tag the four nodes at the beginning of each slip 
road.  Or put the nodes in a relation.  Or draw a big area covering the 
entire junction.

Obviously the same applies T-junctions but there are only three nodes.

I could post this question on the talk-ko list and ask what Korean users would 
expect to see.

Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is using the data, so it's hard to know 
exactly what to do until someone uses it and says 'yes, this is great', 
or 'no, this won't do'.  Most of the junctions in Korea /are/ named as 
free-standing name nodes that were brought in in a big import a while ago.  
When I am mapping I usually cross-reference the name node with a photo of the 
sign from the junction and then merge the name node into the physical 
junction node.

Having written this, I think that a combination of single nodes where two ways 
cross, and relations where dual-carriageways cross or there is a bridge and 
slip roads would work well.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:08:11 Maarten Deen wrote:
 On 2013-02-14 11:59, Andrew Errington wrote:
  In Korea we also have named junctions at overpasses, so the junction
  name is
  where the two roads cross (or meet) but they physically don't join
  because
  one road is on a bridge over the other, and there are sliproads to
  move
  between them.
 
  In the third case we could tag the four nodes at the beginning of each
  slip
  road.  Or put the nodes in a relation.  Or draw a big area covering
  the
  entire junction.

 Junction names on exits or junctions of motorways is common practise:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.3934lon=6.12683zoom=15layers=M
 (Knooppunt Zaarderheiken is the name tag, e.g.
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/42529258)

  I could post this question on the talk-ko list and ask what Korean
  users would
  expect to see.

 And talk-jp for Japan. I see little use in discussing how we would like
 to do it. openstreetmap.jp has a map, but it looks to be the standard
 slippy map. Has noone there seen this as a big enough problem to make
 their own rendering and start mapping the junctions?

Ah, yes, I already do put the name of the junction on the motorway exit, but I 
have not noticed if this would apply to other named junctions (they are 
signed differently but conceptually they might be the same).  It would be 
simple enough to adopt this for lower classes of road.

One of the problems we have in Japan and Korea is that they already have 
awesome free maps online.  Much better than Google, with lots of features and 
resources, and everyone can use them to full effect on their smartphones.  
That in conjunction with satnavs in every car means that OSM has no purpose 
other than a pleasant hobby here, which I am very happy to continue.  One day 
someone will make use of it and release a killer app that everyone will want 
to use.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 02:23:08 Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
 On 02/14/2013 05:12 PM, Toby Murray wrote:
  On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 
  dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
  2013/2/14 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:
  though I consider the everything=yes trend as namespace pollution. So :
  - junction=* if there is enough diversity to justify that namespace
  - highway=junction if junction=yes is going to represent most of the
  junction=* space
 
  there is no risk that yes would be the most used value, currently
  more than 95% (or 266000) of the values are roundabout.
 
  http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/junction#values
 
  junction=crossroads perhaps?

 Seems reasonable.

 So we would have at least...
 - junction=roundabout
 - junction=crossroads (unspecified crossroads)

 And a few more candidates...
 - junction=yield (to signify an uncontrolled crossroads where the lack
 of traffic signals in Openstreetmap is not mere neglect)
 - junction=stop (stop-controlled crossroads - which could be part of a
 relation linking the junction node with the positions of the actual stop
 signs)
 - junction=traffic_signals (which could be part of a relation linking
 the junction node with the positions of the actual traffic signals)

I disagree.  This is too complicated.

The problem is to specify that a junction has a name, and to disambiguate 
these from any other junction.

Right now we have a mechanism for this when the junction is a roundabout:
junction=roundabout
name=*

In the wiki is was stated that named junctions can be marked with:
junction=yes
name=*

However, Mapnik does not render a label for this.  I'm not sure if any other 
renderer does.  Mapnik *does* render a label for a named roundabout.

To add a junction name we could just add a name=* tag to the junction node, 
but then there is no hint about what the name means.  So, by adding 
junction=yes it indicates that this *is* a junction, and the name is the name 
of the junction.  It's simple and obvious.

junction=crossroads would be fine, but it doesn't add any information.
junction=yield is no good because it does not specify which direction of 
approach should yield.  junction=stop is also no good, for the same reason.

So, what I want is for Mapnik to render a label at a node if the there is a 
junction=yes tag (and name=* tag) present.  This has been stated in the wiki 
for a long time.

Thank you,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:57:56 Hans Schmidt wrote:
 Hello,

 Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map?
 This adress scheme is more important than street names in Japan, but
 currently, OSM does not display it. In consequence, it is very hard to
 locate something on the OSM map in Japan. There are almost no street
 names, and because the names of the crossroads are not displayed, you
 don’t have any idea where you are.

I would also like this, for Korea.  Obviously it's a rendering issue, but it 
would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this.

I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the 
wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me.

In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names.  I showed the 
osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction 
to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map 
users.

Best wishes,

Andrew
 
[1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

Hi there,

My experience in Japan is that the junctions are named, but not oriented.  You 
give directions by saying 'go down this street and turn left at NAME 
junction'.  Or 'take the third right after NAME junction'.  Or if you are 
looking at a map, some junction names are shown, which makes it possible to 
follow a route by looking up for signs, and carefully counting the streets 
you pass.

The addressing system in Japan is not based on the crossroads name however.  
It's a block-based system.  The block has a name, and sub-blocks are 
numbered, and entrances are numbered around the edge of the block (I'm 
skipping a lot of detail[1]).

In Korea, again, junctions are not oriented.  Just named.  If you are driving, 
your satnav will announce the junction name that you are to take.  If you 
look out, you will see a sign with the name.  Again, with maps, the junction 
names are printed, which makes it easy to look around, see the signs, and 
locate yourself on the map.

The Korean address system used to be block-based, but now uses named streets 
with odd/even numbered houses on opposite sides of the road.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:34:00 Clifford Snow wrote:
 Can help me better understand the naming of junctions. Do junction names
 have a direction attribute? How are they used to give directions with no
 street names?

 On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:22 AM, Andrew Errington 
erringt...@gmail.comwrote:
  On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:57:56 Hans Schmidt wrote:
   Hello,
  
   Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map?
   This adress scheme is more important than street names in Japan, but
   currently, OSM does not display it. In consequence, it is very hard to
   locate something on the OSM map in Japan. There are almost no street
   names, and because the names of the crossroads are not displayed, you
   don’t have any idea where you are.
 
  I would also like this, for Korea.  Obviously it's a rendering issue, but
  it
  would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this.
 
  I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the
  wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me.
 
  In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names.  I showed the
  osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named
  junction
  to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map
  users.
 
  Best wishes,
 
  Andrew
 
  [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:56:40 Kevin Peat wrote:
 On 13 Feb 2013 12:59, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote:
  Hello,
 
  Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map?

 place=locality

 Kevin

I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it.  It's not a locality, nor 
is it really a place.  It's a junction, with a name.

I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step 
would be to get it rendered.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:44:07 Hans Schmidt wrote:
 Am 13.02.2013 14:22, schrieb Andrew Errington:
  I would also like this, for Korea.  Obviously it's a rendering issue, but
  it would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this.
 
  I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the
  wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me.
 
  In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names.  I showed the
  osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named
  junction to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for
  Korean map users.
 
  Best wishes,
 
  Andrew

 Yes. Generally I think that non-Western map styles are completely
 neglected in OSM, but I have no idea to change that. How can we get in
 touch with the people who define the rendering styles? Somehow it seems
 to me (from the perspective of an ordinary user) that they are some kind
 of “gods”, who choose abritarily what is done and what is not.
 Well, this time I try not to give up until this is done :) It must be
 very frustating for Korean and Japanese users to map, but seeing that
 their efforts are basically completely useless on OSM, because the map
 will not display anything which is needed for a usable map in these areas.

 Concerning tagging: I don’t think that there should be some special tag.
 The node which intersects both roads should just get a name property.
 JOSM displays the name there, and I think this is how it should be
 displayed on osm.org, too.

 Hans

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You could put a request in Trac:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapnik

(The instructions are in the third paragraph To report bugs or graphical 
suggestions...)

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Andrew Errington]

You could as

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote:
 On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:54 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:

 Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a particular 
 map area?

 For example, for a given bb(zoomsome min) in a browser window, is there 
 anything that says:
 - Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas like the 
 one you're viewing, this area has:
 -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
 -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
 -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
 -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but don't (e.g. schools)
 -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
 -- There's a park with no trails - learn how to add
 -- etc.

 In general, I'm thinking of something that will help new users answer the 
 question, How can I help?, particularly for their local 'hood without 
 sending them to too (too) many off-map web resources. Or even a suggestive 
 OSM Inspector?

 Geofabrik has the Inspector tool, which is a bit inside-baseball but does a 
 great job of surfacing a variety of common tagging and geometry problems:
 
 http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=geometrylon=-122.29381lat=37.80892zoom=11opacity=0.29
 
 http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=tagginglon=-122.33638lat=47.55957zoom=11opacity=0.29

 It'd be interesting to develop code for some of the more wish-listey items 
 you suggest, like parks with no trails or buildingless-POIs.

 -mike.

How about OpenStreetBugs (http://openstreetbugs.schokokeks.org/)?
Encourage people to add details of errors and omissions that they have
noticed that they can't or don't know how to fix.  Then encourage
everyone else to take a look there from time to time and fix the
things they can.

I sometimes use OpenStreetBugs to leave notes for myself.  I will make
a note of something to do later, then, later, I can go and fix it, or
maybe someone else had time to do it instead.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bug fixes multilingual map

[Andrew Errington]

This is fantastic!  I hope that this, or something like it, can become
the default way of rendering.  In Korea (and Japan) we have adopted
the convention of putting two languages into the name=* tag, which is
tedious, and I think shouldn't be done.

Anyway, could you please look at street names?  Maybe there's a bug.
http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=18lat=35.6888lon=127.90618layers=B0Tlang=en%7Cko

It doesn't matter if I use en|ko or ko|en, it seems there is an LF
character between the two strings which is not present in the original
data.  You can see it rendered as 'LF' inside a square box.  This 'LF'
does not appear for other labels, such as restaurants or schools.

Anyway, great work!

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:




 Am 02/dic/2012 um 21:45 schrieb Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org:

 Note that sometimes the name in [] appears below the other name and sometimes
 right behind it. I am not doing anything different there, I guess it has 
 something
 to do with the way Mapnik renders multiline labels in different scripts.


 Maybe this has to do with the wrap width you set for the textsymbolizer, or 
 is it independent from the length of the name?

 Cheers,
 Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Problem with an Etrex 20

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:04:22 Sébastien Pierrel wrote:
 Greetings from Burundi,

 we have an issue with one of the Etrex20 of the Eurosha Burundi team. It's
 not recognized by any computer.
 When connected to the USB port, the device is powered through USB but
 doesn't enter mass storage mode. In the system setup menu, I can change the
 USB mode between Garmin and mass storage but computers won't recognize
 it in either mode.

 I've tried on a Mac, Windows and linux. It doesn't show up in `lsusb`. The
 other etrex work just fine on these machines.

 I've just realised that one of the working etrex prompts a message usb
 cable detected. do you want to switch to mass storage mode when in Garmin
 mode. The faulty etrex doesn't prompt such a message.

 My diagnosis is that the USB controller is dead.

 Any hope to access the data on the internal storage?

 Help appreciated.
 Cheers,
 Seb.

The Internet says the Etrex 20 has a Micro SD card slot.  Would it be possible 
to put a card in and transfer your internal data to it, then read the card on 
a PC?

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [Talk-ko] Dok-do edits ...

[Andrew Errington]

Are we still able to do 'legitimate' edits?

Should we change name:ko according to this news article?

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2012/10/28/91/030100AEN20121028000700320F.HTML

The peaks are now 우산봉 and 대한봉.

Andrew

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung
wesle...@gmail.com wrote:
 I've notified pnorman of DWG about this, so it should be fixed soon.

 나의 iPhone에서 보냄
 Wesley Hwang-Chung | 정우덕
 Tool-Box.info

 2012. 10. 31. 13:28 Changwoo Ryu cw...@debian.org 작성:

 Another one-time mapper:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/tette_nazo/edits


 2012/10/3 Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung wesle...@gmail.com:
 I've notified DWG of this now. Hopefully, it'll get taken care of.


 On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Robert Helvie alim...@gmail.com wrote:

 It looks like a new user named Japanese (just 1 day old) has edited the
 Dok-do area again.

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Japanese/edits

 I guess talking to people and adding notes to the data hasn't worked.
 Maybe someone in the Foundation needs to get involved.

 jama rek,



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Re: [Talk-ko] Bad data ..

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:12:32 Robert Helvie wrote:
 Through private message, I have already let him know that I asked other
 mappers to help delete that bad data. So I think it won't be a surprise to
 him.

 Also, I have already deleted some of the data as I was crawling the map the
 other day. I am sure there is a bunch more to get rid of, but at least the
 process has started.

Ok, well I made a request on the global talk list for all that data to be 
deleted. It has now been done.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Another reversion request (sorry)

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

The following changesets in Korea have been added by a user without realising 
the consequences.  Firstly, the data may have been imported from somewhere 
else without permission, and secondly, it's very poor quality data which 
obscures and does not join with existing data.  The original mapper is aware 
of what's happened, and wants to delete the data but can't.  No-one on our 
list knows quite how do delete such big changesets.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13007274
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13007836
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13012742

If anyone is interested you can review the discussion on the talk-ko list.

Anyway, because these are such large imports can someone please revert them?  
I don't know if there have been many further edits on the data.  If there's 
something that the Korean mapping group can do, please let me know.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Another reversion request (sorry)

[Andrew Errington]

I don't know if there are legal problems.  If someone knows how to determine 
this, please go ahead.  We can translate messages into Korean for the 
original mapper if required.

Thank you,

Andrew

On Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:12:23 Paul Norman wrote:
 Yikes. I have some tools that will work on the very large changesets, I'll
 get around to it tomorrow (heading to bed now).

 Also, if there's legal problems it needs to be redacted, not just deleted.

  -Original Message-
  From: Andrew Errington [mailto:erringt...@gmail.com]
  Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 1:52 AM
  To: talk@openstreetmap.org
  Subject: [OSM-talk] Another reversion request (sorry)
 
  Hello everyone,
 
  The following changesets in Korea have been added by a user without
  realising the consequences.  Firstly, the data may have been imported
  from somewhere else without permission, and secondly, it's very poor
  quality data which obscures and does not join with existing data.  The
  original mapper is aware of what's happened, and wants to delete the
  data but can't.  No-one on our list knows quite how do delete such big
  changesets.
 
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13007274
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13007836
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13012742
 
  If anyone is interested you can review the discussion on the talk-ko
  list.
 
  Anyway, because these are such large imports can someone please revert
  them?
  I don't know if there have been many further edits on the data.  If
  there's something that the Korean mapping group can do, please let me
  know.
 
  Thanks in advance,
 
  Andrew
 
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Re: [Talk-ko] Bad data ..

[Andrew Errington]

Hello,

I had previously noted this mapper's work and queried it.  Since then,
I notice that most of his edits (from 2 years ago) have been deleted
as part of a de-duplication process (not sure how that works).  This
time he has introduced 4 more changesets which are generally poor
quality.

If there are no objections I will ask on one of the main lists for
help with deleting all of these 4 recent changesets (from 6/7
September).  Anything else that's still present will have to be
fixed/deleted as it is discovered, or someone with some free time
could trawl through his edit history.

Could a Korean speaker please contact lee heesam and tell him that
is what I plan to do (if that's what he wants, then he should be ok
with it), and that bulk uploads of data is usually bad unless it's
very carefully planned (and isn't under someone else's copyright).  If
someone could also help him to improve his mapping skills that would
be even better.

Best wishes,

Andrew

On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Robert Helvie alim...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey folks,

 In a well intentioned but misguided edit, user lee heesam added a bunch of
 railroad data.

 I noticed tags that are reminiscent of Garmin data like:

 Datalevel : 1
 Levels : 3
 MARINE : N
 MP_TYPE : 0x14

 I contacted him and he admitted that it was Garmin data. He wants to delete
 the data, but is not quite sure how.

 I am not quite sure how to do such a large deletion either.
 So if someone who has more experience in mass deletion than me could give it
 a go, that would be good. He has other edits, so be careful.
 Or at least people should keep an eye out for the data and delete it when
 you see it. It is mostly rail ways but possibly some stations. Just check
 for those tags.

 It is not even good data. It is old an only vaguely follows the imagery.

 Thanks,

  Robert

 We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to
 give us meaning. 
 ~ unknown
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Re: [Talk-ko] New user deletes Dokdo area in its entirety

[Andrew Errington]

I have only asked for reversions a couple of times in the past.  I did
this via the global talk list.  I will re-post your request there.

Andrew

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Wesley Woo-Duk Hwang-Chung
wesle...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would like to give people heads up on another vandalism.

 A very recent edit (happened only about an hour ago as of this writing) by
 someone named fuckn (it was die_bashi just a moment ago... how, um,
 creative) has deleted the data relating to Dokdo island. Changeset is here.
 It's interesting that this is the user's very first edit.

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13018858

 The act seems to be deliberate (I've witnessed it being deleted node by node
 firsthand, in fact), and the username isn't flattering either.

 My JOSM editor doesn't seem to have the reverter plugin working (I
 downloaded it and loaded the area data, but no History  Revert menu
 showsup), so if anyone's reading this, please revert the changes
 appropriately. Thank you.

 I hope the OSM mediator who's on the mailing list is reading this...
 Wouldn't this sort of vandalism be a basis for a ban?

 - Wesley (OSM: Namuori)

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[OSM-talk] Reversion request

[Andrew Errington]

I never did find out if there is an official place to request a
reversion.  We are having some trouble with vandalism in Korea in a
disputed area.  Mostly it can be fixed up, but I don't know if things
will escalate in the future.

Could someone please revert this recent changeset, which has caused
the entire island to be deleted?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/13018858

Thank you.

Andrew

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[Talk-ko] The mailing list

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

It's nice to see some activity on the mailing list.

I am the list administrator, but I'm not in charge.  I don't have any power- 
just the power to delete the occasional spam message.  :)  There are 
currently 35 members on the mailing list.  I'd like to encourage more people 
to use the mailing list and to discuss issues that crop up with mapping in 
Korea.

I heard recently that Koreans generally don't use mailing lists, and because 
of that they are unfamiliar with them and reluctant to use them.  If this is 
true I'd like to know how to get over that problem.  Since this list was 
created to talk about mapping in Korea I would really like Koreans to be 
comfortable using it, since they are most familiar with the country and how 
it should be represented on a map.  There is also the issue that many of the 
tools and much of the reference materials are not available in the Korean 
language.

The map *is* usable now, and every day it gets better.  I would love to see 
more discussion and more collaboration.  If you are bilingual in Korean and 
English, please consider translating some messages on the mailing list as 
they appear, or some material in the Wiki.  There are also a few things that 
I myself would like to talk about, so I will start a discussion in a later 
message.

I am still enjoying mapping in Korea, and I hope you all are too.

Best wishes,

Andrew


여러분 안녕하세요? 메일링 리스트가 다시 활동을 보이고 있어서 다행입니다.

저는 메일링 리스트의 관리자입니다. 책임자는 아니라서 어떤 힘이 있는 것은 아니고, 가끔 등장하는 스팸 메시지를 지우는 권한이 있는
정도입니다.

메일링 리스트에는 현재 35명의 회원이 있습니다. 저는 보다 많은 사람들이 이 메일링 리스트를 사용할수 있도록 활성화 됐으면 하고,
한국에서 지도를 만들때 발생할 수 있는 문제들에 관해서도 의견을 나눌 수 있게 도와 드리고 싶습니다.

최근에 한국사람들이 메일리스트를 일반적으로 사용하지 않는다고 들었습니다. 메일링리스트가 생소하고 사용하기가 꺼려지기 때문인 것
같습니다. 이것이 사실이라면 그 문제점을 극복하는 방법을 알고 싶습니다.

이 메일링 리스트는 한국에서 지도를 만드는 것에 대해 이야기 하고자 할 목적으로 만들어졌기 때문에, 저는 정말로 한국사람들이 편안하게
사용할 수 있기를 바랍니다. 한국사람들은 한국을 가장 잘 알고 있기에 어떻게 지도가 그려져야 하는지도 더 잘 알고 있기 때문입니다.

한편, 많은 유용한 소프트웨어와 참고자료들이 한국어로 되어있지 않은 문제가 있는데, 메일링리스트를 통해 해결할 수도 있다고 생각합니다.

지도는 지금도 유용하게 쓸 수 있는 편이지만 나날이 더 좋아지고 있습니다. 저는 보다 더 많은 토론과 보다 더 많은 작업을 함께 하게
되기를 바랍니다.

만약 여러분이 한국어와 영어 두가지를 다 하실수 있으면  메일링 리스트 내의 메세지나 위키의 자료를 번역해 주셨으면 합니다. 저 자신도
얘기 나누고 싶은게 많습니다. 이는 다음 메세지에서 다시 얘기를 드리겠습니다. 저는 지금도 한국에서 지도만들기를 즐겨하고 있습니다. 더
많은 분들과 이 즐거움을 함께 나누고 싶습니다.

감사합니다.

앤드류 올림
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenCycleMap tiles not updated anymore?

[Andrew Errington]

As far as I know OpenCycleMap is a semi-private initiative with
limited server resources and limited human resources.  It is updated
periodically, but there is usually a backlog.

More info here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenCycleMap

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Lucas Nussbaum
lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net wrote:
 Hi,

 It seems that the opencyclemap tiles as published on
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/ are fairly outdated.

 For example, one can see quite a lot of differences between
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.66809lon=6.10432zoom=15layers=C
 and
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=48.66616lon=6.10265zoom=15layers=M

 What is the expected update frequency? Are there known issues with
 OpenCycleMap?

 Thanks,

 Lucas

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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 01:35:21 Lester Caine wrote:
 Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
  I understand that it might be a long and complicated task cleaning this
  up, as 'the entire world' is tagged with name= and only a few regions and
  places have aditional name:xx

 It would not take that long to clean this up, but it is something that
 needs to be done anyway if only to identify the languages that appear in
 'name=' so that we can then translate them correctly?

This was discussed in April in the thread:
Transcription and 'internationalization' in place names

My suggestion at the time was to always include name:xx=* for the local 
language xx, even if it is redundant with the name=* tag.  The definition of 
name=* then becomes subtly altered to mean The label we use if no language 
is specified.  Then we can argue what goes into that label, but it could 
be 'whatever is printed on the sign, including multiple languages'.

It is an issue for me as I am mapping in Korea.  In Korea we have Korean and 
English on most signs, but in OSM we are trying to include name:ko and 
name:en as the two parts separated out.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] new bing hires updates not visible in JOSM?

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:01:04 Kate Chapman wrote:
 Hi Maning,

 JOSM caches the old imagery if you clear the cache it will fix the issue.

Right,

right-click on the editing area and select 'Flush tile cache'.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] handheld gps unit

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, April 23, 2012 14:09, kenneth gonsalves wrote:
 On Fri, 2012-04-20 at 16:52 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote:

 What do you want to use it for? What's your budget? What features do
 you need? Any special requirements?

 an NGO is constructing toilets over an area. They need to map the
 locations and state of construction/repair/beneficiaries etc. They will
 need several devices as 50,000 toilets are being done - so around 200 USD.
  --
 regards Kenneth Gonsalves

What about a camera with built-in GPS?  That way you can make photo
documentation of the progress at each site with a timestamp and
geostamp[1].  Many cameras also record audio, so you could have
timestamped, geostamped audio too although I'm not sure how
independent/integrated the GPS in such a camera is.  Remember, when taking
a picture *of* the site to adjust for the offset *to* the site, or just
take a picture straight down or something.

A random 30 second search brought up the Casio Exilim EX H20G for $199 at
Amazon.

Another option is a smartphone with a built-in GPS, but maybe they are
expensive.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[1] I'm not sure if anyone uses the expression geostamp although
Wikipedia assures me it exists.


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Re: [OSM-talk] handheld gps unit

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 21:20:10 kenneth gonsalves wrote:
 hi,

 what are recommendations for a handheld reasonably priced gps unit?

Bit old these days, although maybe that makes it cheaper, but I love my Garmin 
Geko 201.  Waterproof, takes two AAA cells.  Reasonably accurate.  Robust.  
Well-implemented features.

I'd like to know what's current, but I am always extremely happy when I use my 
Geko.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transcription and 'internationalization' in place names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 21:40:40 Joseph Reeves wrote:
  We should really not follow the approach of making the map at

 www.openstreetmap.org perfect but instead the data behind it because
 that's where we're better than Google and Co.

 Agreed, but if we improve the rendering at osm.org, we should be able to
 highlight the issue that some users are filling the database with nonsense
 names. At the same time, the people that want to see name= (name:en=) on
 their osm.org tiles will be able to.

 Once the rendering is tweaked to give the results people want, the data
 would be presumably cleaned up quite quickly.

Absolutely!  And I think that this particular issue could be cleaned up 
automatically by a 'bot, with an exception report sent to the 
country-specific talk mailing list for anything that needs to be handled 
manually.

The reason that Japan and Korea have bilingual labels is because mappers want 
it that way.  Since Mapnik did not provide it, they did it themselves.  Now 
newer software is capable of doing automatically, so we should revisit the 
issue.

Should I simply open a ticket on Mapnik's issue tracker, to request that in 
Korea, labels be rendered as name:ko (name:en)?

On a related note, and using Claudius's example:

name=서울특별시
name:el=Σεούλ
name:en=Seoul
name:ko_rm=Seoulteukbyeolsi
name:ru=Сеул

Should we add name:ko=서울특별시?

Otherwise, how do we know the Korean name for this city?

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transcription and 'internationalization' in place names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:32:14 Maarten Deen wrote:
 On 2012-04-16 14:15, Joseph Reeves wrote:
  As for Korea:
 Should we add name:ko=서울특별시?
 
   Otherwise, how do we know the Korean name for this city?
 
  It seems to me that adding name:ko is duplicating data. We should be
  using the local names for the name: tag, so the Korean can go in
  there. I would then have this rendered as name= (name:en=) on the
  osm.org [8] mapnik tiles. Such a system could presumably be used
  worldwide (although I'm sure there are plenty of people that would
  disagree). Having said that, adding name:ko= isn't going to hurt and
  may be of use to other data consumers.

 Hopefully with worldwide you mean only the countries that do not use
 latin script. It would not be pretty to see München (Munich) or worse:
 Bruxelles - Brussel (Brussels).

I would love to be able to see a map with München (Munich) on it.  I am going 
there on vacation, but I don't speak German.  It would be handy to know the 
real name for the places I only know the English name of.

I'm not advocating this for 'Standard' map tiles at osm.org, but some feature 
from some map service whereby I can get a nice map labelled with one or two 
languages of my choice.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transcription and 'internationalization' in place names

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 22:15:38 you wrote:
 Should I simply open a ticket on Mapnik's issue tracker, to request that
  in Korea, labels be rendered as name:ko (name:en)?

 I think we should request for a international solution rather than Korea
 specifically, but yes, I like the idea.

Well, the international solution might be to make name=* be name:ko 
(name:en), or name:xx (name:yy) which is where we started...

I am using Korea as an example, but I am thinking about whether my suggestions 
would boil down to a generic rule that would apply anywhere.

 Claudius points out that:
 I guess you are referring to the map rendering at
  www.openstreetmap.orgbecause MapQuest is also using Mapnik to render
  their open map

Yes, indeed.  I meant the Mapnik render on osm.org, which has now been renamed 
to 'Standard'.  I will try to use that in the future.

 I don't know if MapQuest have submitted their changes upstream to Mapnik,
 but regardless of this, the same functionality should be requested on the
 osm.org Mapnik instance.

 As for Korea:
 Should we add name:ko=서울특별시?
 Otherwise, how do we know the Korean name for this city?

 It seems to me that adding name:ko is duplicating data. We should be using
 the local names for the name: tag, so the Korean can go in there. I would
 then have this rendered as name= (name:en=) on the osm.org mapnik tiles.
 Such a system could presumably be used worldwide (although I'm sure there
 are plenty of people that would disagree). Having said that, adding
 name:ko= isn't going to hurt and may be of use to other data consumers.

Well, if we *don't* include name:ko=* (for objects in Korea) then we have to 
assume that name=* is Korean.  Once we start making assumptions then we 
become sad.  I think it's better to be explicit.

In fact, I think that if name:ko=* is present, then it doesn't actually matter 
what is in name=*.  The definition of name=* then becomes subtly altered to 
mean The label we use if no language is specified.  Then we can argue what 
goes into that label...

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Transcription and 'internationalization' in place names

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, April 17, 2012 10:31, Stephan Knauss wrote:
 Andrew Errington writes:


 In fact, I think that if name:ko=* is present, then it doesn't actually
 matter what is in name=*.  The definition of name=* then becomes subtly
 altered to mean The label we use if no language is specified.  Then we
 can argue what goes into that label...

 IMHO the definition of the name tag is fine. It says it's the name the
 *local* people call it. If the local people want some mixed spelling in
 that tag then, -well- it's their problem when doing other things with the
 data besides rendering a map.

 So the standard rendering should be a help for the *local* mappers and
 thus display their local name.

 If for tourists or other special cases a different rendering is required
 then it should be on a specialized map.

 For Thailand we do it like this. The local people can read the names on
 the map as a lot of expats who map here can do.

 For those who want to have latin script names we have a special
 rendering.

 As Mapquest does already provide a fallback to English, why not adapt the
  label on the main site to read MapQuest open (bilingual) to make it
 easier to find?

Ok, well I think it would make sense to always include a tag with the name
in the local language even if it is redundant with the name=* tag.  And in
fact that's exactly what we do in Korea and Japan.

Alternatively, is there a mechanism to link name=* and name:xx=*?

i.e. name:ko - name  (or name - name:ko)?

Then we only have to enter the information once, but we can answer the
question What is the name of Seoul in Korean? unambiguously.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] POI for Hotel

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, April 13, 2012 11:58, Frans Thamura wrote:
 hi all

 we just develop team to collect all the hotel information in Indonesia

 choice

 1. create a hotel database outside openstreetmap
 2. save in openstreet as POI


 what do u think?

 and we will create rating also for the hotel...

Option 2, then (optionally) cross-reference your database outside of OSM
with hotel POIs inside OSM.  Alternatively, you can re-generate your
database by extracting hotel POIs from the OSM database.

For rating you can use the stars=* tag, but it's probably subjective, or
not really comparable between countries.

Best wishes,

Andrew




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Re: [OSM-talk] POI for Hotel

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, April 13, 2012 12:33, Frans Thamura wrote:
 I just thinking


 Create a web, fill there and save in poi of osm.


 But, what happen if someone has put there.


 Still dunno how to communcate if we have data also in my server that
 'must'
 share poi

Well, it's a classic problem.

If you have one database, then you are probably happy.  But, if this
database does not contain everything you want then you need to link to
your own database somehow.

Now you have two databases.  Which one is correct?

I think you have two options.

Option 1: Add all data for all hotels into OSM.  Now you have only one
database.  But the problem is that some data should probably not be
entered into OSM.  For example, number of rooms, or price of rooms.

Option 2: Link OSM POIs to your own database.  In OSM you can store name,
address, phone number.  In your own database, rating, price, reviews, etc.

To link them together you need something unique in OSM.  You can't use the
node ID because it might change, or a node could be converted to an area. 
You could use the ref=* field,  or webpage (this is probably unique for
each hotel), or a combination of name+addr:housenumber.  You could also
introduce UUIDs, but the proposal for this never really got off the
ground.

Once you have a link you can write a program that extracts all hotel POIs
in Indonesia from OSM and compares them to your own database.  Your
program should produce 3 lists:

1. Hotels in OSM that are also in your database
2. Hotels in OSM that are not in your database
3. Hotels in your list that are not in OSM

List 1 is very boring.  You don't need to do anything.
Hotels in list 2 must be added to your database.
Hotels in list 3 must be added to OSM.  Or maybe they are already there,
so you just need to make the link.

This is a simplified view, but it's the basic technique you need.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline Update

[Andrew Errington]

On Sun, 01 Apr 2012 09:31:53 Clifford Snow wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:
  I have completed another coastline generation and it has uploaded. This
  version respects odbl=clean.
 
  The shapefiles are in their normal place at
  http://pnorman.dev.openstreetmap.org/coastlines/
 
  Included is a .osm file with all the error points.
 
  There are no significant multi-square flooded or dry areas. The following
  areas have significant number of error points:
 
  Pudget Sound in Washington State
 
  I just pulled the osm file into josm.  I did a check of a couple of error

 points in the osm file in Puget Sound (Edmunds WA.)  They appear to be
 about 10+ meters from the shoreline according to the bing image.  Since I'm
 new at this, but since I live in the Puget Sound and would like to help fix
 it, what is an acceptable error distance?  Also - the bing image doesn't
 give a date and time to determine the tide level.  Or am I missing
 something?

Are you sure the Bing image is correctly aligned?  There is no guarantee that 
it is.  Find a bunch of GPS traces nearby for a road or other very visible 
feature and ensure they line up with that feature on the Bing image.  If they 
do, you're fine- use the Bing image to correct the coastline.  If they don't, 
then use the tools in Potlatch or JOSM to move the Bing layer into alignment 
*then* correct the coastline.

The coastline should follow the line of high tide.  Use your best judgement to 
determine this.  You're not missing something.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Inaccurate GPS location

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:38:17 John F. Eldredge wrote:
 After reading a news article about the effect the current solar storm is
 expected to have on GPS accuracy, I decided to see where my cell phone's
 GPS thought I currently was.  Usually it is fairly accurate, but tonight it
 thought I was about 12 miles from my actual location.  I tried three
 different apps; all gave the same, wrong location.

...because it's the same GPS receiver.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim and language tags

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:16:45 Brian Quinion wrote:
 Hi,

 We are doing some work to improve the linking of name and name:xx tags
 in nominatim (basically adding better language fall backs) but in
 order to do that we need to have a list of which OFFICIAL languages
 are used in which countries.
snip
 Official languages only (i.e. ones that are used on signs in that
 country), not languages that are simply spoken in that country.

Hi,

In Korea they speak Korean.  It is the only official language, however, 
roadsigns are generally written in Hangul (Korean language) and English 
(usually just Romanised Hangul, but sometimes translated).

So, do you want the official languages, or all languages on the roadsigns?  
These may not be the same.

In Korea:
Official languages: ko
All languages on the roadsigns: ko,en (sometimes zh, ja) 

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bing imagery and the remap campaign

[Andrew Errington]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 04:03:01 Douglas Musaazi wrote:
snip
 We shall also use this opportunity for the participants to re-map their
 previous edits and correct those that could have been mapped wrongly, and
 also agree to the new osm odbl licence.

Don't forget- sometimes Bing imagery is not accurately aligned.  You should 
double-check the alignment of the images before tracing from them.  Potlatch 
and JOSM have tools which will allow you to move the images to correct the 
alignment.

One simple way to do this is to make several GPS traces of a large and visible 
feature, such as a well-defined field, or a grid of roads, or an oval running 
track.  Make several traces on different days and get the best 'average' 
shape for this feature.  Next, turn on aerial imagery and check that the 
visible feature (which should be very clear on the image) lines up with the 
shape that you made.  If it does then you are lucky, and you don't need to 
realign the images.  If it doesn't, then move the aerial image layer until it 
lines up.

I have found that the offset from one area will work within a radius of about 
50km, but it's worth checking in different areas.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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Re: [OSM-talk] working with GPX

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, December 27, 2011 06:05, Frans Thamura wrote:
 hi all

 i am working with GPX now.. using OSMTracker..

 this is the pics of the screenshot after put in JOSM

 see this track

 from my home to my meruvian camp

 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1015052494085set=a.101505444
 39799085.432882.675689084type=3theater


 any comment?

 why the track cannot follow the street..

 i am using Samsung Nexus S with OSMTrack

There are many reasons.  Here are a few, maybe it's the cause in your
situation.

1) GPS is not accurate all the time
2) Accuracy varies over time, especially in areas with tall buildings
3) GPS software doesn't record every point- it tries to be 'smart' to save
memory space for the log

Don't worry too much about it, but maybe you can find some configuration
settings on the Nexus S that will alter the GPS logging.

When mapping, I generally record several tracks (they are all different,
even on the same piece of road) then I visually 'average' the tracks and
draw a way that is the average of the tracks.  I also use the tracks to
check and align the aerial photos- sometimes they are misaligned too.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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[OSM-talk] Is the Mapnik server happy?

[Andrew Errington]

I have noticed some recent changes have not been rendered.  Usually
they're pretty quick.

Thanks to the openness of the project I can see that something happened
around midnight (I am assuming UTC):

http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/yevaud.openstreetmap/index.html#renderd

I am sure Top Men are looking at it, but I am curious about the cause, and
whether there is a process to tell someone.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] License Change View on OSM

[Andrew Errington]

On Tue, December 13, 2011 23:17, Jo wrote:
 I'm also taking the opportunity to align all the other features on bing.

Have you checked the local alignment of Bing aerials?  Where I am they can
be offset by as much as 20 metres!  I have to realign the aerial photo
layer before tracing anything from Bing.  The same problem was present in
Yahoo! aerials, but the offsets were different.

Generally what I do is make several GPS traces around a very visible
object (such as a field, running track, monument or something) then I
average the traces to get a good outline.  Once I have the outline
accurately recorded in OSM I adjust the position of the aerial photos
until the physical object lines up with the OSM outline.  Then I can map
other things nearby.  I have found that a single adjustment can apply to
areas 40 km away, sometimes more, sometimes less.  Other people's GPS
traces are good for double checking the alignment further away.

Once I have a good alignment I record it in JOSM so I can re-use it again
later.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Andrew Errington]

On Wed, December 7, 2011 22:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 2011/12/7 Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com:

 I wonder if custom presets could help with the road classification.
 We've had the same problem in parts of Indonesia, but that is because
 the road classifications are simply translated.  Translating the word
 primary doesn't mean much for the type of road it is.  Changing the
 word used in the preset to the specific known government classification
 could help.


 That would be an interpretation though. Some time ago we voted about
 the highway-classification and decided that it shouldn't necessarily
 corrispond to the local government classification, that's why the presets
 usually are translated and don't associate a certain road type to local
 government classification (usually there is more then one
 government-classification, the one visible at the road is (where I know
 of) the one of the maintaining entity, which is not in every case the
 classification of importance of the connection, as planning engineers see
 it).

I thought this was foolish at the time, and it still is.

highway=* should match the classification given by the government or
roading authority, and should match whatever type of road is on the road
sign.  This is entirely objective.  To do otherwise is subjective- if two
mappers are presented with the same road one might say This is a major
road, it's highway=primary, but another might say This is a fairly major
road, but it's not very busy.  It's highway=secondary.  Instead, look at
the badge on the sign.  In the wiki should be a mapping from road
designation (on a roadsign) to highway=* tag.  After all, nobody disagrees
what highway=motorway means, so why open the other types to
interpretation?

I don't know for sure, but I expect that the initial list of road
classifications were derived from UK Ordnance Survey classifications:

Motorway - motorway
A road - primary
B road - secondary
'yellow' road - tertiary
'white' road - unclassified
dual-carriageway - trunk
upgraded A road - primary + motorroad

In my opinion highway=* should match the visible government
classification.  Next, if we add lanes=*, width=* and maxspeed=* then
other people (or other people's software) can adjust the importance of any
segment of the road based on objective data, not subjective
interpretation.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, December 8, 2011 09:20, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 Andrew Errington wrote:

 I don't know for sure, but I expect that the initial list of road
 classifications were derived from UK Ordnance Survey classifications:


 Yes.


 Motorway - motorway
 B road - secondary
 'yellow' road - tertiary
 'white' road - unclassified


 Pretty much, yes. tertiary/unclassified isn't a hard and fast rule.


 dual-carriageway - trunk A road - primary


 Not quite:
 primary A road (green signs) - trunk
 non-primary A road (white signs) - primary


 upgraded A road - primary + motorroad

 Not really used in the UK. I think that was introduced in Germany.
 (Personally I think that was a good decision by the German mappers and I'd
  like to see other countries do something similar, albeit co-ordinated
 with other nations, rather than always trying to shoehorn in incompatible
 systems to the UK-derived classification.)

I thoroughly agree, but it's difficult to introduce a new classification,
describe its meaning, and get agreement from renderers to render it in the
right way (even if it renders the same as another road class it still
needs to be specified somewhere).  If it's possible to match local road
classification to the existing OSM model then that's a Good Thing.

In Korea, I felt it was actually quite easy to do this[1].  Unfortunately
someone else came up with a different scheme before me that doesn't
actually capture the differences.  Since then I have been encouraging
everyone to consider my suggestions.  What I'd really like is for Mapnik
to render the road symbols in the same way as Korean road signs (red/blue
shield, blue oval, white octagon, yellow rectangle) but it seems like a
trivial request and Mapnik authors have more important things to do.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Korea_Road_Classification


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Re: [OSM-talk] Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, December 8, 2011 09:27, Tobias Knerr wrote:
snip
 With the German road numbering scheme, the administrative
 classification is also already defined by the ref=* tag. So choosing the
 highway value based on the administrative classification would duplicate
 that information.

Hmm.  Unfortunately that won't work in Korea as the refs are just numbers.
 For example, near me I have a blue oval '37' (national road) and a yellow
rectangle '37' (local road).

Best wishes,

Andrew


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[OSM-talk] What's wrong with this picture?

[Andrew Errington]

This macro tile seems to be infected by the sea:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=36.0742lon=126.8671zoom=13layers=C

All tiles below it are rendered with a blue tinge.

The rendering artifact is not present on the new 'Transport' layer (which
is very nice, by the way).

I had a quick look at the data in the top left corner of the bad tile, but
there's nothing obvious.  It's also strange that the top left corner of
the tile is 'sliced off'.

I didn't know whether to send a message to Andy Allan directly, so I
decided to post here.

Um, I guess I want someone to fix it, or tell me what's wrong and I will
fix it.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Moderating / Quality checking OSM contributions -- was: Re: OSmosa.net run now.., contribution model

[Andrew Errington]

How about every changeset triggers a message to the last n people to edit
any of the nodes or ways in the changeset, together with the comment for
that changeset?

Every mapper will get a message like this:

Some of your contributions have been edited in changeset XX.  The
comment was X...

A mapper can choose to subscribe or unsubscribe to this feature, or maybe
specify that they are only interested in messages arising from work they
contributed in a certain area.

Then, a mapper can go and check that the changes are good, or have
ruined/damaged some good work.

I myself have had some work ruined, but I only noticed a long time later. 
At first I thought I had misremembered editing in a certain area, but it
turns out that my work had been deleted (history lost) and replaced with
an almost identical version (version number starts at 1 again).  I am
satisfied it was not malicious, and in fact the mapper involved was quite
sorry.  He had made a mistake and couldn't fix it, but tried to put things
back as they were as best he could.  If I had known about it sooner I
could have helped.

I suppose it's a bit like OWL, but tailored to an individual's edits, not
to any edit.

Yes, it would lead to lots of messages, but I personally would have no
trouble filtering them.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Vector maps for Android

[Andrew Errington]

This weekend I took a bus trip to Seoul.  I installed Navit and gpsd on my
netbook, plugged in a USB gps receiver, and downloaded OSM data for all
Korea using Navit's download tool.

It worked well.  It planned a route to the bus terminal in Seoul, which
generally matched the route the bus actually took (naturally, I had no
influence over the route the driver took).  The moving map is quite
mesmerising and all drawn from OSM vector data in real time.

Navit is available for Android, and it's probably very easy for you to try
it out.  It's still 'under development', so not as slick as you might
expect, but it does work.

http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Navit_on_Android

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Restore deleted node please

[Andrew Errington]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:54:27 Andrew wrote:
 Grant Slater openstreetmap at firefishy.com writes:
   http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/368736042
 
  Done.
 
  / Grant

 A little point: shouldn’t we be adding name:ko=서울남부터미널 for Korean
 language maps?

Well, since you didn't have time to do it, I did it.

 Judging by http://toolserver.org/~osm/locale/ko.html?
 lat=37.48418lon=127.01563zoom=16layers=B there seem to be other issues
 like that.

I'll get on to these as soon as I can.

Is there anything else you'd like me to do?

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Restore deleted node please

[Andrew Errington]

Hello,

Could someone please restore this deleted node?  It's a bus terminal in Seoul.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/368736042

I don't recall deleting it, but it seems I did.  I think I would have re-drawn 
the bus terminal as an area and copied the tags from the node to the area, 
but I can't find any evidence of that either.  Maybe I'm losing my mind...

Thank you,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Aerial photo offsets

[Andrew Errington]

Hi everyone,

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but I am wondering what can be 
done about the need for aerial photo offsets.  There's very little in the 
wiki[1]

In Korea (as elsewhere, I assume) the aerial photos are not always accurately 
aligned with reality.  Across the country different offsets are needed 
(sometimes no offset).  What I do is look for a set of GPS traces from a very 
visible landmark and then use them to align the aerials.  If there are none I 
will often find a visible landmark, such as a park, or a running track in a 
stadium, and make several GPS traces of my own on different days, so that I 
can use them to line up the aerials.  I know that one trace is insufficient.

I know there are tools in JOSM and Potlatch to move the aerial photo layer 
around, and JOSM even stores them for future use, but surely we must all have 
the same problem around the world?  Is there any project underway to record 
the offsets centrally, so that we don't all have to have our own (slightly 
different) offsets recorded?  It's a big problem when mappers map something 
*only* from aerials, and don't compensate for the offset (this is different 
from the parallax error from tall buildings).  When I map the same area later 
with GPS traces I often find that I have to move many objects.

So, I have two suggestions:
1) Have all mapping software pop up a warning when a mapper chooses to display 
aerial photos.  The warning could say Warning: Aerial photos may be slightly 
offset.  Please check photo alignment before tracing aerial features.
2) Have a central repository of offsets for the main aerial photo providers.  
In the application (JOSM, for example) we can choose to automatically use the 
offset for the current viewport, or our own local one, or submit a better 
one.

Any comments?  Any suggestions to improve my technique?  Any pointers to 
something that already does the Right Thing?

Thank you,

Andrew

[1] 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Aerial_Imagery/Accuracy#Mapping_with_an_offset

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Re: [OSM-talk] Aerial photo offsets

[Andrew Errington]

On Mon, November 7, 2011 11:09, mick wrote:
 On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:38:06 +0900
 Andrew Errington a.erring...@lancaster.ac.uk wrote:


 Hi everyone,


 Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but I am wondering what
 can be done about the need for aerial photo offsets.  There's very
 little in the wiki[1]

 In Korea (as elsewhere, I assume) the aerial photos are not always
 accurately aligned with reality.  Across the country different offsets
 are needed (sometimes no offset).  What I do is look for a set of GPS
 traces from a very visible landmark and then use them to align the
 aerials.  If there are none I will often find a visible landmark, such
 as a park, or a running track in a stadium, and make several GPS traces
 of my own on different days, so that I can use them to line up the
 aerials.  I know that one trace is insufficient.

 When I first got my GPS (Garmin GPS 60) I traced the fence lines at home.
 I found that the accuracy was not very good - between +- 12 to 30 metres
 so I traced the GPS unit on the top of each post so I could accurately
 repeat the logging then took readings each day, at different times, and
 plotted them in a CAD program with a circle centred on the reading with a
 radius of the error range. At the end of the month almost all the circles
 were reduced to under 1/2 a metre.

 I guess everyone knows this trick.

No, I don't think so, and that's the problem.  In fact, when I first
started tracing aerials I didn't realise that they might be offset.  I
thought that a huge company such as Yahoo! would have access to the
highest quality imagery (maybe they do, but we don't).  I made the same
assumption with Bing more recently, and I was disappointed to find I still
have to move the image layer before I can use it.

This is the reason that I suggested in my original message that mappers
should receive a warning when they turn on aerial imagery and try to trace
from it.  I realise that turning on the imagery is a required action in
JOSM, but it's automatic in Potlatch, so maybe Potlatch should always warn
when it is launched.

The problem is that when mappers start mapping solely from aerials without
adjusting them first they will do one of two things:
1) They will map clusters of buildings and roads in the wrong place, which
must later be moved, or
2) They start 'correcting' roads and buildings that are already mapped
accurately, but they move them to match the location on the aerial, which
of course is in the wrong place (see 1 above).

Either of these actions is counterproductive.  We should be harnessing
mappers' efforts efficiently.  No-one wants to re-map an area where
everything is 20m offset, and new mappers might feel they are wasting
their time when they see all of their contributions have been moved,
despite them taking the best care.

As we get more mappers who start using the easiest methods to get started
(tracing aerial imagery) we are going to see more problems, but I don't
know the best way to deal with it.  (Yes, I have just encountered exactly
this problem, and now I have to fix it).  (Yes, I know I don't *have* to
fix it, but I feel compelled to, especially as I have GPS data for a group
of streets nearby that I can't 'join up' because the roads they are
joining to are in the wrong place).

Best wishes,

Andrew


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[OSM-talk] Here's what they do in Korea

[Andrew Errington]

Hello everyone,

In case you are interested, here's what's happening in Korea (non-OSM):

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2011/11/123_97850.html

It's pretty cool, and I would love for OSM to be the back-end of some of these 
apps, but it's going to be a while.

Anyone outside Korea can take a look at the map services on-line.  The two 
popular ones are Daum and Naver:

http://local.daum.net/map/index.jsp?t__nil_navi=bestmainnil_id=map

http://map.naver.com/

Even if you don't read Korean you can still appreciate the scope and scale of 
their undertaking.  The datasets are also unique- take a look at the same 
area from the different providers.  Click on various icons to see aerial 
photos and Daum's street view.  Also provided: route planning, traffic 
density, and the weather for the chunk of map you are looking at.  Oh, and as 
well as the distance and journey time the route planner will tell you the 
taxi fare you would have to pay.

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Big mess- fight or flee?

[Andrew Errington]

Hi everyone,

I have been mapping in Korea a lot.  In July I discovered a problem
because I took a trip to an area I had mapped before.  When I went to use
my new data to check against the map I thought I was going mad.  I was
sure I had mapped certain roads, and they were there on the map, but my
name was no longer in the history.  In fact, there seemed to be only one
version of the road in existence.

Here is one way I know I mapped:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44818037

It was deleted as part of this changeset, which is rather large:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/7300872

Here's another:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/83432223/history

From this large changeset:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/7575051

I contacted the mapper responsible, who apologised to me and basically
said that they messed something up, or something went wrong during the
editing session, couldn't fix it, so did the best they could to put things
back.

So, I am happy that it was not malicious, but not happy that a lot of my
work (and others' work) has been lost/needlessly altered, and there is no
continuity in the history.  Anyway, I'd like to know what is the best
course of action.  I still have my GPS traces and photos of streetsigns
and other detail, so I could reload it and re-map the area, but it's a big
area...

Should I...
a) Ask someone to investigate what happened and show me what tools to use
to recover/restore deleted data, bearing in mind that the current data
seems to be identical and would overlap restored data?
b) Check/re-map the areas using whatever data I have?
c) Ignore the issue?
d) None of the above

I know that in some ways the database is 'self-healing' since mappers who
spot discrepancies (due to whatever cause) will fix them.  But these
errors don't need to be discovered- I know they are there (and now you do
too!).

I also wonder if there should be some mechanism to stop (or at least draw
attention to) massive edits/deletions before too much time goes by.

Thanks,

Andrew


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