Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
I guess we could use the value notation for most of them, similar to noting a 70 km/h speed limit with traffic_sign=BE:C43[70] as proposed by the Finns. 2015-02-22 23:58 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Shouldn't we have a proper discussion once about how we're going to translate all the traffic signs in OSM tags? A lot of traffic signs have different variations and if we just tag all of these under the same traffic_sign=* we're going to lose a lot of information. Absolutely. A proper discussion is most certainly needed. I started adding data to that plugin without realising I was opening a can of worms doing so... We really need to know how to handle things like: * B15 (priority on next crossroad) with different lines traffic_sign=BE:B15[left], traffic_sign=BE:B15[sharp_left;slight_right], ... * C5+7+9+? combinations where different traffic signs are combined into one That's a different beast. I think combining them with a + sign is most logical here. Either C5+7+9 as you say, or C5+C7+C9. That multiple C might make it more, or just less clear. * D1 and D3 (mandatory direction) with different arrows which don't have separate names I'm not completely sure about what arrows are used when. The slanted ones are used on obstacles, and the ones with a line coming from the bottom are used to obligate traffic. But the plain horizontal arrows seem to be used for combined cases. Knowing their use cases would help with tagging, possible values include keep_right turn_right ... For D3, it could again be tagged as BE:D3[no_right_turn] or similar. * F45 and F45b (no exit, maybe except cyclists and pedestrians, maybe not on all routes), with different ways how the roads are laid out. Does this also exist with only the pedestrian sign? And sometimes, these signs do contain strange routing diagrams to show which streets are a dead end. * F91 with different traffic signs on each lane arrow (recursion anyone?) Embedding it in an F91 value? * F99a/b/c with different icons for pedestrians, cyclists, horses, and in reality variations are found with mopeds and even gocarts These could be embedded in values, as long as we have a few standardised names. * F103 for pedestrian roads with or without bicycle icon, other different exceptions possible for loading or unloading * and what about all the big destination signs that can have exotic layouts? * bilingual traffic signs, how to map those? * and of course our governments and city councils are sometimes very creative with the traffic code... So yeah, maybe start a wiki page so we can discuss possible implementations for these issues? Greetings Ben So I guess there are solutions for most, though not always equally simple. Btw, there's also the cycle variant of some signs (like the give-away sign). Those variants are normally just a bit smaller. Regards, Sander ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Yay!!! Totally worth to add it, ofc. 2015-02-22 18:02 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I've got another sign for you: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WjqGxyL-Bw0/VOoEPQCPHHI/YnM/jz-uM2gU1o0/w405-h716-no/IMAG0715.jpg Good luck ;) ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Well, it does make you wonder about the tags. Would the following make any sense? traffic_sign=BE:A3[20%;11%] 2015-02-22 18:06 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Yay!!! Totally worth to add it, ofc. 2015-02-22 18:02 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I've got another sign for you: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WjqGxyL-Bw0/VOoEPQCPHHI/YnM/jz-uM2gU1o0/w405-h716-no/IMAG0715.jpg Good luck ;) ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
I think it makes most sense to keep the highest number... I also found a traffic sign. A P with a knife and fork next to it. Didn't see that one among the official ones either :-) Since I started paying attention to them; the P with the red circle around and diagonal red line barring it, doesn't seem official either. Oh and the ones with a pooping dog :-) A few weeks ago I never paid attention to those signs with a H on them. Since I started doing so, I noticed that in Wallonia they sometimes use a B instead. 'Bomberos'? 'Brandweer'? 'Bincendie'? Jo 2015-02-22 18:12 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Well, it does make you wonder about the tags. Would the following make any sense? traffic_sign=BE:A3[20%;11%] 2015-02-22 18:06 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Yay!!! Totally worth to add it, ofc. 2015-02-22 18:02 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I've got another sign for you: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WjqGxyL-Bw0/VOoEPQCPHHI/YnM/jz-uM2gU1o0/w405-h716-no/IMAG0715.jpg Good luck ;) ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
You mean these signs? http://www.brandweerlommel.be/images/hydrant01.JPG I don't know if these belong to the traffic sign category. They're not meant to regulate any kind of traffic. Another sign I found was a no-access sign, with a uitgezonderd plaatselijk verkeer, fietsers en ruiters, then someone made the fietsers part invisible (put a blue tape on it), but underneath, there was yet another subsign saying uitgezonderd bicycle_icon. And that while cyclists are always considered local. Btw, shouldn't that no-parking sign be an E1 or E2 instead? I think it's used a lot on garage doors, exactly because it has no legal meaning (so anyone can use it). But parking before a garage door is prohibited anyway. Regards, Sander 2015-02-22 19:13 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I think it makes most sense to keep the highest number... I also found a traffic sign. A P with a knife and fork next to it. Didn't see that one among the official ones either :-) Since I started paying attention to them; the P with the red circle around and diagonal red line barring it, doesn't seem official either. Oh and the ones with a pooping dog :-) A few weeks ago I never paid attention to those signs with a H on them. Since I started doing so, I noticed that in Wallonia they sometimes use a B instead. 'Bomberos'? 'Brandweer'? 'Bincendie'? Jo 2015-02-22 18:12 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Well, it does make you wonder about the tags. Would the following make any sense? traffic_sign=BE:A3[20%;11%] 2015-02-22 18:06 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Yay!!! Totally worth to add it, ofc. 2015-02-22 18:02 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I've got another sign for you: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WjqGxyL-Bw0/VOoEPQCPHHI/YnM/jz-uM2gU1o0/w405-h716-no/IMAG0715.jpg Good luck ;) ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Jo, I've got another sign for you: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WjqGxyL-Bw0/VOoEPQCPHHI/YnM/jz-uM2gU1o0/w405-h716-no/IMAG0715.jpg Good luck ;) ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
There are also some with only a H on it. But you're right, they're not traffic signs and we're more interested in mapping the hydrant than mapping those signs. The odditiy was that I found some with a B instead. The barred P is indeed on garage doors. Not proper traffic signs indeed. Jo 2015-02-22 19:27 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: You mean these signs? http://www.brandweerlommel.be/images/hydrant01.JPG I don't know if these belong to the traffic sign category. They're not meant to regulate any kind of traffic. Another sign I found was a no-access sign, with a uitgezonderd plaatselijk verkeer, fietsers en ruiters, then someone made the fietsers part invisible (put a blue tape on it), but underneath, there was yet another subsign saying uitgezonderd bicycle_icon. And that while cyclists are always considered local. Btw, shouldn't that no-parking sign be an E1 or E2 instead? I think it's used a lot on garage doors, exactly because it has no legal meaning (so anyone can use it). But parking before a garage door is prohibited anyway. Regards, Sander 2015-02-22 19:13 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I think it makes most sense to keep the highest number... I also found a traffic sign. A P with a knife and fork next to it. Didn't see that one among the official ones either :-) Since I started paying attention to them; the P with the red circle around and diagonal red line barring it, doesn't seem official either. Oh and the ones with a pooping dog :-) A few weeks ago I never paid attention to those signs with a H on them. Since I started doing so, I noticed that in Wallonia they sometimes use a B instead. 'Bomberos'? 'Brandweer'? 'Bincendie'? Jo 2015-02-22 18:12 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Well, it does make you wonder about the tags. Would the following make any sense? traffic_sign=BE:A3[20%;11%] 2015-02-22 18:06 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: Yay!!! Totally worth to add it, ofc. 2015-02-22 18:02 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I've got another sign for you: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WjqGxyL-Bw0/VOoEPQCPHHI/YnM/jz-uM2gU1o0/w405-h716-no/IMAG0715.jpg Good luck ;) ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Enjoy https://www.google.be/search?q=funny+road+signstbm=isch. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Shouldn't we have a proper discussion once about how we're going to translate all the traffic signs in OSM tags? A lot of traffic signs have different variations and if we just tag all of these under the same traffic_sign=* we're going to lose a lot of information. Absolutely. A proper discussion is most certainly needed. I started adding data to that plugin without realising I was opening a can of worms doing so... We really need to know how to handle things like: * B15 (priority on next crossroad) with different lines * C5+7+9+? combinations where different traffic signs are combined into one * D1 and D3 (mandatory direction) with different arrows which don't have separate names * F45 and F45b (no exit, maybe except cyclists and pedestrians, maybe not on all routes), with different ways how the roads are laid out. * F91 with different traffic signs on each lane arrow (recursion anyone?) * F99a/b/c with different icons for pedestrians, cyclists, horses, and in reality variations are found with mopeds and even gocarts * F103 for pedestrian roads with or without bicycle icon, other different exceptions possible for loading or unloading * and what about all the big destination signs that can have exotic layouts? * bilingual traffic signs, how to map those? * and of course our governments and city councils are sometimes very creative with the traffic code... So yeah, maybe start a wiki page so we can discuss possible implementations for these issues? Greetings Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Do we have car sharing traffic rules in Belgium? 2015-02-13 14:56 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: 2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. Fully agree with you, atm you can get the effect you want by ticking or unchecking the tick box. Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. same here Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. It's a matter of adding it to the XML file. Not hard to do, but it hadn't been high on my priority list. The icons are already present in the plugin's image files. One of the reasons I hadn't added them yet (apart from lack of time), is that I'm concerned they will take up a lot of space, so the plugin should be changed and have tabs for categories of signs. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C9 seems to be meaningless if Class A or B are not mentioned. Changed to moped. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. added both C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. conformed to the wiki, even though no information about access:explosives can be found there Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. Didn't readily know what to do with those. Added them now No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). Added, it's work in progress. I skipped the ones I didn't feel sure enough about. The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). Leaving it for the time being. Feel free to contribute a better graphic for F1a. F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes changed The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) copy pasted from wiki, I'll remove them. I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. +1 Thanks!!! Jo ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Hallo Karel, Dat is niet helemaal hetzelfde. Bij car sharing mag je bepaalde rijstroken gebruiken als je een passagier bij je hebt. Autodelen zoals Cambio e.d. dat doen, is een vorm van 1 auto voor meerdere mensen die een soort abonnement hebben en dan onderling afspreken wie de wagen op welk moment ter beschikking heeft. Misschien heb ik de Engelse term wel verkeerd. Ben wat vermoeid. De data voor de plugin zit in een ticket van JOSM. Ik verwacht dat het er dan morgen wel bij zal zitten. Ik heb gezorgd dat we nu ook zones voor parkeren, parkeerverbod en alle mogelijke beperkingen kunnen toevoegen. Verder alle gevaarsborden toegevoegd en de meest relevante 'informatie'-borden. Aan wegwijzers ben ik nog niet toegekomen. En dan natuurlijk Sander z'n opmerkingen verwerkt. Wie zelf de laatste borden wil toevoegen, of Franse vertalingen, of verdere verbeteringen, be my guest: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Belgium/Road_signs_plugin https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/RoadSignsBE/RoadSignsBE.zip https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42418402/RoadSignsBE/roadsignpresetBE.xml De iconen zitten er al allemaal in, ze moeten enkel aan dat XML-bestand worden toegevoegd en dan zijn ze beschikbaar in de plugin. Wat tijd kost, is uitzoeken welke tags er dan van toepassing zijn. mvg, Jo 2015-02-13 18:46 GMT+01:00 Karel Adams fa348...@skynet.be: Op zijn minst bestaan er gereserveerde parkeerplaatsen. Voorbeeld aan station Nekkerspoel (Ontvoeringsplein). https://www.google.be/maps/@51.029946,4.489369,3a,30y,106.71h,86.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJ2aKjl84Hyve3lEwG3UrVA!2e0?hl=nl On 13-02-15 17:03, Jo wrote: Do we have car sharing traffic rules in Belgium? 2015-02-13 14:56 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: 2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. Fully agree with you, atm you can get the effect you want by ticking or unchecking the tick box. Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. same here Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. It's a matter of adding it to the XML file. Not hard to do, but it hadn't been high on my priority list. The icons are already present in the plugin's image files. One of the reasons I hadn't added them yet (apart from lack of time), is that I'm concerned they will take up a lot of space, so the plugin should be changed and have tabs for categories of signs. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C9 seems to be meaningless if Class A or B are not mentioned. Changed to moped. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. added both C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. conformed to the wiki, even though no information about access:explosives can be found there Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. Didn't readily know what to do with those. Added them now No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). Added, it's work in progress. I skipped the ones I didn't feel sure enough about. The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). Leaving it for the time being. Feel free to contribute a better graphic for F1a. F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes changed The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) copy pasted from wiki, I'll remove them. I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. +1 Thanks!!! Jo
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Op zijn minst bestaan er gereserveerde parkeerplaatsen. Voorbeeld aan station Nekkerspoel (Ontvoeringsplein). https://www.google.be/maps/@51.029946,4.489369,3a,30y,106.71h,86.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJ2aKjl84Hyve3lEwG3UrVA!2e0?hl=nl On 13-02-15 17:03, Jo wrote: Do we have car sharing traffic rules in Belgium? 2015-02-13 14:56 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com mailto:winfi...@gmail.com: 2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.com: I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. Fully agree with you, atm you can get the effect you want by ticking or unchecking the tick box. Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. same here Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. It's a matter of adding it to the XML file. Not hard to do, but it hadn't been high on my priority list. The icons are already present in the plugin's image files. One of the reasons I hadn't added them yet (apart from lack of time), is that I'm concerned they will take up a lot of space, so the plugin should be changed and have tabs for categories of signs. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C9 seems to be meaningless if Class A or B are not mentioned. Changed to moped. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. added both C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. conformed to the wiki, even though no information about access:explosives can be found there Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. Didn't readily know what to do with those. Added them now No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). Added, it's work in progress. I skipped the ones I didn't feel sure enough about. The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). Leaving it for the time being. Feel free to contribute a better graphic for F1a. F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes changed The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) copy pasted from wiki, I'll remove them. I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. +1 Thanks!!! Jo ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
On 2015-02-13 18:46, Karel Adams wrote : On 13-02-15 17:03, Jo wrote: Do we have car sharing traffic rules in Belgium? Op zijn minst bestaan er gereserveerde parkeerplaatsen. Voorbeeld aan station Nekkerspoel (Ontvoeringsplein). https://www.google.be/maps/@51.029946,4.489369,3a,30y,106.71h,86.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJ2aKjl84Hyve3lEwG3UrVA!2e0?hl=nl Nos avans chal on sistime wice qui dès dgins avou ine carte polèt apicî ine vwètûre https://www.google.be/maps/@50.536283,5.633851,3a,16.7y,294.12h,85.45t/data=%213m4%211e1%213m2%211s5PcVTon_HQPl6juVAUdvJw%212e0?hl=en qui passe èt qu'a ine carte avou, més dj' n' a måy polou trover dès fwért djusses tags http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1666772596 po mète çoula so OSM. 2015-02-13 14:56 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com mailto:winfi...@gmail.com: 2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.com: I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. Fully agree with you, atm you can get the effect you want by ticking or unchecking the tick box. Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. same here Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. It's a matter of adding it to the XML file. Not hard to do, but it hadn't been high on my priority list. The icons are already present in the plugin's image files. One of the reasons I hadn't added them yet (apart from lack of time), is that I'm concerned they will take up a lot of space, so the plugin should be changed and have tabs for categories of signs. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C9 seems to be meaningless if Class A or B are not mentioned. Changed to moped. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. added both C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. conformed to the wiki, even though no information about access:explosives can be found there Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. Didn't readily know what to do with those. Added them now No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). Added, it's work in progress. I skipped the ones I didn't feel sure enough about. The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). Leaving it for the time being. Feel free to contribute a better graphic for F1a. F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes changed The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) copy pasted from wiki, I'll remove them. I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. +1 Thanks!!! Jo * Dutch - detected * English * French * Russian * English * French * Russian javascript:void(0); ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
What are we going to do about Type-* subsigns ? That is the official designation, I mapped a few but they apply to several variations. I tried waiting until someone else brings them up. I'm talking about those: http://www.wegcode.be/wetteksten/secties/mb/mb-111076/868-hs2art13 Type IV for example : Uitgezonderd bus But it can also be Uitgezonderd plaatselijk verkeer So it's not deterministic at all and in fact you loose information. The person who thought of this naming scheme should be spanked. Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Hi Sander, Thank you for having a look at it! You are right. The plugin code itself needs to be changed to accomodate the remarks at the start of your message. traffic_sign should go on the selected node and the effects of the sign should go on the selected ways The way it works now, you'd have to remove the tags that don't apply, which is not user-friendly at all, but at least it's easier than having to run the plugin twice. I've already created some tickets for some improvements, but I'm afraid I'll have to try and do it myself... I'm looking into creating plugins for JOSM, so adapting one may be good practice. I'm going to try and implement the other observations. I have to admit that I've been improvising here and there... sorry for the imperfections. Moped and mofa are indeed problematic. Is Belgium the only country which differentiates those by using class A and B? Or was my assumption wrong that Mofa is Class A and Moped is Class B? Jo 2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. So the stylesheet should try to recognise all traffic sign codes. Now you can tag something like traffic_sign=BE:A1a + maxweight=7, and JOSM will display a maxweight sign. Which isn't good. Splitting the tags completely makes it possible to have some redundancy, and to check one tagset against the other. Next to that, when we need to tag traffic signs, I would also like a way to set the direction of a sign easily, and to be able to view the direction easily. Certainly on physically split highways, some signs tend to be in the middle of the road, so it's unclear how they're facing. At crossings it can also be very ambiguous. We shouldn't have to fill in an angle by hand, but with some hotkey+mouse action, JOSM could generate the right angle (and maybe rotate the sign like it does for turn restrictions). Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. And as a final general comment, when it comes to sub-signs and direction signs, there are many free texts possible. This should also be made possible next to the few defaults. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. Regards, Sander 2015-02-09 1:15 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: All they are good for is mark what is the 'ground truth'. Thereby showing, where the tags the ways got as a result, came from. For your noexit example. One would set traffic_sign=F45 exactly where the signpost is located. In that case the job is done. No need to tag a way (anymore. As far as I am concerned, this was different before, but then I'm probably one of those who misunderstood the noexit=yes tag). Now the way will only be connected on one end and the F45 or F45b confirms that that is correct. In case the validator complains about the loose node being very near to another highway, add noexit=yes on that node. noexit=yes now became a tag to make the validator shut up. So all the traffic_sign does, is create a redundant connection
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
For the direction of the sign, it would be nice to be able to use a 'virtual' node, then JOSM could calculate the bearing automatically. Maybe somebody should create a ticket so this becomes possible for all nodes which have direction. How is this solved when 2 signs are on the same pole? Or 3 (this happens for those green signs for emergency gathering points, OK those aren't traffic signs. It may also happen for roundabout signs on very small roundabouts). Jo 2015-02-11 16:17 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. So the stylesheet should try to recognise all traffic sign codes. Now you can tag something like traffic_sign=BE:A1a + maxweight=7, and JOSM will display a maxweight sign. Which isn't good. Splitting the tags completely makes it possible to have some redundancy, and to check one tagset against the other. Next to that, when we need to tag traffic signs, I would also like a way to set the direction of a sign easily, and to be able to view the direction easily. Certainly on physically split highways, some signs tend to be in the middle of the road, so it's unclear how they're facing. At crossings it can also be very ambiguous. We shouldn't have to fill in an angle by hand, but with some hotkey+mouse action, JOSM could generate the right angle (and maybe rotate the sign like it does for turn restrictions). Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. And as a final general comment, when it comes to sub-signs and direction signs, there are many free texts possible. This should also be made possible next to the few defaults. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. Regards, Sander 2015-02-09 1:15 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: All they are good for is mark what is the 'ground truth'. Thereby showing, where the tags the ways got as a result, came from. For your noexit example. One would set traffic_sign=F45 exactly where the signpost is located. In that case the job is done. No need to tag a way (anymore. As far as I am concerned, this was different before, but then I'm probably one of those who misunderstood the noexit=yes tag). Now the way will only be connected on one end and the F45 or F45b confirms that that is correct. In case the validator complains about the loose node being very near to another highway, add noexit=yes on that node. noexit=yes now became a tag to make the validator shut up. So all the traffic_sign does, is create a redundant connection between what's on the ground and how it affects the way (and sometimes a node (traffic_calming) or a relation (turn_restriction)). Nothing more, nothing less. This is why they started doing it in Finland: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs Now I'm not saying we have to try and add all of them, but I do want to make it possible and conveniently easy to add them (and their effects). Jo 2015-02-09 0:26 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Those are what I meant with sub-signs that often require free text input. But even that free text (next to the naming of the sign) can be horrible. And not only in Belgium. Just take a look at this: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Conditional-access-bicycle-and-delivery.jpg When you read the sign, it's unclear under which exception a pizza delivery boy falls under: either the delivery restrictions or the snor- and bromfiets restrictions. I don't expect pizza delivery boys to really obey any signs, but these ambiguous cases happen rather often, certainly for less common modes of transport. 2015-02-11 18:00 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I added those Type signs to the plugin, and I fully agree with you about the spanking! I called them Type_XX_often_something_extra They're a pain and forced me to become somewhat creative... Jo 2015-02-11 17:44 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be: What are we going to do about Type-* subsigns ? That is the official designation, I mapped a few but they apply to several variations. I tried waiting until someone else brings them up. I'm talking about those: http://www.wegcode.be/wetteksten/secties/mb/mb-111076/868-hs2art13 Type IV for example : Uitgezonderd bus But it can also be Uitgezonderd plaatselijk verkeer So it's not deterministic at all and in fact you loose information. The person who thought of this naming scheme should be spanked. Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
I tried it a bit, and I do have some concerns with both the mapping plugin and the style JOSM uses. First, I think that a traffic sign should only have tags like traffic_sign=BE:C21[7] and no tags like maxweight=7 Those legal implications of traffic signs should stay on way segments IMO. So the stylesheet should try to recognise all traffic sign codes. Now you can tag something like traffic_sign=BE:A1a + maxweight=7, and JOSM will display a maxweight sign. Which isn't good. Splitting the tags completely makes it possible to have some redundancy, and to check one tagset against the other. Next to that, when we need to tag traffic signs, I would also like a way to set the direction of a sign easily, and to be able to view the direction easily. Certainly on physically split highways, some signs tend to be in the middle of the road, so it's unclear how they're facing. At crossings it can also be very ambiguous. We shouldn't have to fill in an angle by hand, but with some hotkey+mouse action, JOSM could generate the right angle (and maybe rotate the sign like it does for turn restrictions). Then I've always had problem with tagging variable speed limits (f.e. those dynamic zone-30 signs). When mapping signs, there should be a clear difference between the variable sign and the fixed sign, and that setting should also apply to the tags on the way segments. Since we're tagging directions on road pieces too, allowing direction signs (f.e. F29) should also be possible. And as a final general comment, when it comes to sub-signs and direction signs, there are many free texts possible. This should also be made possible next to the few defaults. Now, wrt the specific Belgian case, I've also seen a few mistakes, though not that many, since the plugin isn't very usable before solving the above. C9 is translated to moped=no on the wiki, while it's mofa=no on the plugin. I know the difference is very fuzzy (and the relation to class A and B too), but we should at least use a uniform tagging. C23 is translated to goods=no on the wiki, and hgv=no on the plugin, again, the difference is rather fuzzy. C24a and C24b are both tagged as hazmat=no on the plugin, again a difference with the wiki, and I'm not sure what the hazmat_ADR_tunnel sign is. Sign combinations (like C5+C7) also aren't available in the plugin. No-stopping signs are missing from the plugin, and no-parking signs have no tags attached (parking:lanes:right=no would be the default tag I guess). The F1 sign (without buildings background) is deprecated and all need to be replaced against June 1st (see http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20141120_01386508 as example), I don't think the plugin will be production-ready against that time. So I don't think it's worth to include the sign (at least not with that graphic). F9 should be translated to motorroad=yes instead of motorway=yes The F17 sign contains some strange defaults (conditional access restrictions?) I didn't really check the validity of sub-signs, as I've often found sub-signs very confusing in real life. Regards, Sander 2015-02-09 1:15 GMT+01:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: All they are good for is mark what is the 'ground truth'. Thereby showing, where the tags the ways got as a result, came from. For your noexit example. One would set traffic_sign=F45 exactly where the signpost is located. In that case the job is done. No need to tag a way (anymore. As far as I am concerned, this was different before, but then I'm probably one of those who misunderstood the noexit=yes tag). Now the way will only be connected on one end and the F45 or F45b confirms that that is correct. In case the validator complains about the loose node being very near to another highway, add noexit=yes on that node. noexit=yes now became a tag to make the validator shut up. So all the traffic_sign does, is create a redundant connection between what's on the ground and how it affects the way (and sometimes a node (traffic_calming) or a relation (turn_restriction)). Nothing more, nothing less. This is why they started doing it in Finland: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Finland:Traffic_signs Now I'm not saying we have to try and add all of them, but I do want to make it possible and conveniently easy to add them (and their effects). Jo 2015-02-09 0:26 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2015-02-07 00:39, Jo wrote : 2015-02-07 0:09 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2015-02-05 22:57, Jo wrote : Hi, Over the past days, I adapted the data file for the road sign plugin for Belgium. I'd like to ask you to test it. Install the plugin the usual way and select something. Look at the top right corner of the tags pane on the right. A little icon was added there, press it and choose BE. Now it becomes easy to tag traffic signs and their effects on the ways they apply to. I'm going to ask the developers for some improvements, but it
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
On 2015-02-07 00:39, Jo wrote : 2015-02-07 0:09 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2015-02-05 22:57, Jo wrote : Hi, Over the past days, I adapted the data file for the road sign plugin for Belgium. I'd like to ask you to test it. Install the plugin the usual way and select something. Look at the top right corner of the tags pane on the right. A little icon was added there, press it and choose BE. Now it becomes easy to tag traffic signs and their effects on the ways they apply to. I'm going to ask the developers for some improvements, but it is functional already. Regarding tests, it's surprising. I click on the little icon but I see no "BE to choose". If I click Setting, I see several countries but not Belgium. Call it wishful thinking, but what I want that plugin to do is the following: 1. add the corresponding tags on the selected ways, which the sign affects 2. add BE:A1b or something of the kind on a node next to the way. This node is placed where the actual sign is. It now becomes possible to see where the tags on the way came from, call it a source, call it fuzzy, if that makes you feel better. I call it redundancy and I don't see a problem with that. I need to see that in action, but, as I told you I don't see any Belgian selection. I'm running 7995. What I'm fearing with traffic signs is what happened and continues to happen with noexit=yes. noexit=yes does not indicate that one cannot exit but that a road continuity gap that prevents passing is intentional. It is made to warn QA tools that there's no error and maybe map browsers to look at that location carefully. But contributors started to use it otherwise. They tagged it at plain dead ends just as totally uselessly as tagging noexit=no in the middle of every street. Or, as I removed some, at junctions with the obvious intention to indicate a no passing condition on one of the streets, but without showing which of the streets and even less how far, where in that street. Worse, they tagged it on ways, not realizing that a node cannot be identified by identifying a way (which end?). Worse, some of them believed that it was made to tag the No Exit signal (F45). Worse, someone silently modified the Belgian Wiki to instruct the Belgian community to do that F45
Re: [OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Call it wishful thinking, but what I want that plugin to do is the following: 1. add the corresponding tags on the selected ways, which the sign affects 2. add BE:A1b or something of the kind on a node next to the way. This node is placed where the actual sign is. It now becomes possible to see where the tags on the way came from, call it a source, call it fuzzy, if that makes you feel better. I call it redundancy and I don't see a problem with that. What I'm not sure of, is whether we should also add BE:A1b (doesn't exist, I know, it's an example) to the ways. Anyway, at the moment the plugin doesn't work that way. I created a few tickets with enhancement requests: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/11080 http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/11081 http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/11082 Please keep in mind it's work in progress. I asked for help on this mailing list twice. Feel free to help out. The file is on the wiki, it's easy to edit it, if you spot any errors in it. I think it may be needed to run josm-latest if you want to see the plugin in action. It might have made it into the josm-tested which comes out tomorrow, but then there will be some bugs still in it, that I'm ironing out at the moment. It may also have nothing to do with latest/tested. Not sure. Cheers, Jo 2015-02-07 0:09 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2015-02-05 22:57, Jo wrote : Hi, Over the past days, I adapted the data file for the road sign plugin for Belgium. I'd like to ask you to test it. Install the plugin the usual way and select something. Look at the top right corner of the tags pane on the right. A little icon was added there, press it and choose BE. Now it becomes easy to tag traffic signs and their effects on the ways they apply to. I'm going to ask the developers for some improvements, but it is functional already. I suppose that you mean JOSM/Plugins/RoadSigns http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RoadSigns. I have read several times about mapping road/traffic signs and I was wondering what to use them for. A traffic sign is obviously tagged on a node, which obviously cannot indicate a traffic rule applying to a way. Moreover, traffic_sign=BE:xxx is totally ignored by GPS software. They don't know country specifics. Hence I came to the conclusion that traffic signs are just adorning the map. Trying to use them for traffic control would induce complete chaos like for noexit=yes and be the end of routing. I looked at this plugin and I was reassured that they only use traffic signs as a visual aid to tag only the well established tags for traffic rules. But now I read to tag traffic signs and their effects on the ways they apply to which is very unclear and exactly what the plugin does not. Could you please explain that clearly, because fuzzy notions won't help the GPS working, they're full of errors already. Regarding tests, it's surprising. I click on the little icon but I see no BE to choose. If I click Setting, I see several countries but not Belgium. I clicked on a node and it added maxspeed=30 on that node, which a plugin should advice novices not to do. Please notify. BTW, source:maxspeed=zone30/signal is incorrect because a zone 30 or signal is not a source of information. The correct form is maxspeed:type=zone30/signal because they are a type of speed limit. But now I see that this plugin uses zone:maxspeed=DE:30 I wonder what is a DE:30 speed limit is and I regard zone:maxspeed=30 as the undisputed ultimate solution. During my few tests, I somehow popped up a Highway/Street/Restrictions preset showing highway=secondary bicycle=yes which is wrong. That's the result of the tests I made. André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] roadsign plugin adapted for Belgium
Hi, Over the past days, I adapted the data file for the road sign plugin for Belgium. I'd like to ask you to test it. Install the plugin the usual way and select something. Look at the top right corner of the tags pane on the right. A little icon was added there, press it and choose BE. Now it becomes easy to tag traffic signs and their effects on the ways they apply to. I'm going to ask the developers for some improvements, but it is functional already. Jo ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
