Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 26/07/19 22:14, Martin Wynne wrote: The tag is *barrier*=gate. A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be tagged as such. At least not across a way. It is a barrier ready for use. You could add a separate node to one side of the way, and tag that as a gate. A gate which is often open, but sometimes closed, is just an ordinary gate. Many farm gates are like that. Potatoes this year = leave the gate open. They are not likely to escape, and it saves getting down off the tractor. Sheep this year = keep the gate closed. As you say, the gate may be closed and it is good if the map alerts drivers to that possibility. I'd rather be warned and find it open than not warned and find it closed. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
26 Jul 2019, 14:14 by mar...@templot.com: > The tag is *barrier*=gate. > > A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be tagged > as such. At least not across a way. > Amber there is *highway*=path and land*use*=water. And *natural*=water used for man made water bodies. Literal meaning of key is rarely always true.___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 6:38 PM Martin Wynne wrote: > Sometimes deciding what is and isn't a gate is tricky. Is this a gate? > To me that's very clearly a gate 路♂️ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
Sometimes deciding what is and isn't a gate is tricky. Is this a gate? http://85a.uk/beware_bull_960x772.jpg If not, what is it? Should it be mapped at all? cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 2019-07-26 15:47, Andy Townsend wrote: > On 26/07/2019 13:28, David Woolley wrote: On 26/07/2019 12:57, Stephen > Colebourne wrote: unless there is an explicit "private" sign > There is no legal need for "private" signs. The default assumption should be > that everything is private ... in England and Wales. ...unless it's "Access Land". https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 26/07/2019 13:28, David Woolley wrote: On 26/07/2019 12:57, Stephen Colebourne wrote: unless there is an explicit "private" sign There is no legal need for "private" signs. The default assumption should be that everything is private ... in England and Wales. Scotland is somewhat more enlightened about things: https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/act-and-access-code Best Regards, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 1:15 PM Martin Wynne wrote: > The tag is *barrier*=gate. > > A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be > tagged as such. At least not across a way. > It's a common mistake to interpret keys to match their corresponding word definitions. The gate exists and physically could be closed, therefore should be mapped as a normal gate. I've encountered one situation like this in the past which I decided to tag as `permissive` at the time (https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1823375898). My logic is that (while this is a privately owned gate) the owner of the gate has decided to leave it open for traffic to pass through the gate, therefore access through the gate is permissive, but could be taken away (therefore it would be false to tag it in a way that suggests access will always be available). Note that I also tagged vehicle access as private, because this is a gate which always seems to be half closed - but access could physically be granted for vehicles if needed. I think the key is to tag the gate's access separate from the way's access (as Stephen suggests) because they are different things. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 26/07/2019 12:57, Stephen Colebourne wrote: unless there is an explicit "private" sign There is no legal need for "private" signs. The default assumption should be that everything is private (even though the OSM default is mainly the opposite). In my part of the country, garden front walls are an endangered species; that doesn't mean that the the front yard is public parking space. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
Op vr 26 jul. 2019 om 13:15 schreef Martin Wynne : > > The tag is *barrier*=gate. > > A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be > tagged as such. At least not across a way. In OSM tagging, the definition isn't strongly tied to the literal English meaning, but rather to how it's used and interpreted. Any object that is tagged with "access=yes" and "barrier=*" could be said to be "not a barrier" since access would seem to be permitted for everyone. But we still use the barrier tag. I'd also suggest that a "permanently open gate" is still a gate that someone might close in future (e.g. if they change their access policy). Also, there's usually a gate-post on each side of the way, not just one side. So yes, I tag permanently-open gates on the way itself. Cheers Dan > You could add a separate node to one side of the way, and tag that as a > gate. > > A gate which is often open, but sometimes closed, is just an ordinary > gate. Many farm gates are like that. Potatoes this year = leave the gate > open. They are not likely to escape, and it saves getting down off the > tractor. Sheep this year = keep the gate closed. > > cheers, > > Martin. > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
The tag is *barrier*=gate. A permanently open gate isn't a barrier, so I don't think it should be tagged as such. At least not across a way. You could add a separate node to one side of the way, and tag that as a gate. A gate which is often open, but sometimes closed, is just an ordinary gate. Many farm gates are like that. Potatoes this year = leave the gate open. They are not likely to escape, and it saves getting down off the tractor. Sheep this year = keep the gate closed. cheers, Martin. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 11:59, Colin Smale wrote: > On 2019-07-26 12:26, Gareth L wrote: > This was discussed on the wiki > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the > suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html Thanks for the links. Unfortunately, there was no resolution to the discussion AFAICT. > Access=* denotes the legal position, not the presence or absence of physical > obstacles. Access=permissive is just as wrong as access=private as a proxy > for gate=normally_open etc. Don't tag incorrectly for the renderer (or > router!) I get that might be the official rule, but in many cases you can't determine the *legal* position without being a lawyer and doing lots of research. When doing ground surveys like I am, all I can say is "can I go here", unless there is an explicit "private" sign. I strongly suspect that most mappers use the access tag to mean "can I go here" to some degree. I'd also suggest that it is much more interesting to users of the data than the legal status. I'd prefer to see a legal_access tag for those cases where the legal position is clear (public footpath or "private" sign), with the access tag treated as the more practical "can I go here". WIth that approach, access=permissive vs access=private would cover open gates vs ones where you have to buzz to go in. It would also cover an open pedestrian gate alongside a closed vehicle gate without the need for a second pedestrian-only highway/gate. I see legal_access as a little like the designation=public_footpath tag, useful when you really know the legal status. eg something like: - legal_access=private, access=private: privately owned, can't get in, eg gated/locked - legal_access=private, access=permissive: privately owned but nothing stops you going in (refined by foot/bicycle etc) - access=yes: you can freely access it - legal_access=public, access=yes: can freely access it and legally public, eg public footpath or park The previous thread suggested: - status=open - status=unlocked (to mean closed but unlocked) - staus= locked which isn't terrible, although it would need agreement to make it worth tagging. (I don't personally buy into Warin's need to document a locked open gate, but if it was needed, the status scheme would be insufficient.) Otherwise, I guess opening_hours is a possibility, but doesn't feel quite right. Stephen ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 26/07/19 21:06, Colin Smale wrote: I guess what we are trying to get out of this, is: a) as a router, can i feel free to route "Joe Public" through here? If the gate is open - yes. If the gate is closed and unlocked - yes. If the gate is closed and locked - no. I would expect an access tag would be used if 'Joe' were not allowed or inhibited is some way e.g opening_hours, max_height. b) as a router, how much time penalty should i factor in for passing this gate? Depends. In Australia the gate would be an extension of a fence line. Fence lines are where animals tend to run at speed and collide with vehicles. Even if open I tend to slow, if there is plant cover obscuring the view10 mph or less, even then I have had a roo collide with the side of my vehicle. I stopped, it took off and failed to render details... hit and run. If closed and fastened I have spent a good 10 minutes figuring out how to open then close the thing! Most are a minute, but .. The more difficult one can be seen as an intelligence test, if you pass the test you can enter :) Anything else? Good luck. On 2019-07-26 12:58, Warin wrote: To bring a little international perspective to this. In outback Australia the convention is "leave the gate as you found it". Unfortunately there are some who don't. To cope with this problem some gates are hung so that they close under gravity. To keep these open the farmer locks the gate open. Few people stop and try to close the gate, and are defeated by the lock anyway. So indicating that a gate is locked .. says little as to if it is open or closed to me. I think the 2 conditions need to be separated and not assumed; locked = yes/no closed = yes/no Not certain how to handle automatic - I think they are mostly automatically closing only, some do both closing and opening and there is the possibility of automatically opening only. Err some may have automatic lock features too... In addition some gates are fastened, but can be manually opened if you figure out the mechanism (some are quite inventive!). A problem I have found is on re-fastening these inventive mechanisms .. can take some time to remember it or reinvent it. Perhaps these should be called 'locked' and the above 'key_locked'??? On 26/07/19 20:26, Gareth L wrote: This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate> with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html> Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I'd evaluate that use carefully. Gareth *From:* Andy Robinson *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM *To:* 'Stephen Colebourne' ; 'talk-gb OSM List' *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:scolebou...@joda.org] Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47 To: talk-gb OSM List Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is rarely if ever closed) Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect. One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with the highway still access=private). Any suggestions? Stephen PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
I guess what we are trying to get out of this, is: a) as a router, can i feel free to route "Joe Public" through here? b) as a router, how much time penalty should i factor in for passing this gate? Anything else? On 2019-07-26 12:58, Warin wrote: > To bring a little international perspective to this. > > In outback Australia the convention is "leave the gate as you found it". > Unfortunately there are some who don't. > To cope with this problem some gates are hung so that they close under > gravity. > To keep these open the farmer locks the gate open. Few people stop and try to > close the gate, and are defeated by the lock anyway. > > So indicating that a gate is locked .. says little as to if it is open or > closed to me. > > I think the 2 conditions need to be separated and not assumed; > > locked = yes/no > > closed = yes/no > Not certain how to handle automatic - I think they are mostly automatically > closing only, some do both closing and opening and there is the possibility > of automatically opening only. Err some may have automatic lock features > too... > > In addition some gates are fastened, but can be manually opened if you figure > out the mechanism (some are quite inventive!). A problem I have found is on > re-fastening these inventive mechanisms .. can take some time to remember it > or reinvent it. Perhaps these should be called 'locked' and the above > 'key_locked'??? > > On 26/07/19 20:26, Gareth L wrote: > >> This was discussed on the wiki >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate [1] with the >> suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html [2] >> >> Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I'd evaluate >> that use carefully. >> >> Gareth >> >> --------- >> >> FROM: Andy Robinson >> SENT: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM >> TO: 'Stephen Colebourne' ; 'talk-gb OSM List' >> >> SUBJECT: Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default >> >> If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of >> how the way is tagged. >> >> Cheers >> Andy >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:scolebou...@joda.org] >> Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47 >> To: talk-gb OSM List >> Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default >> >> I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: >> >> - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) >> - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is >> rarely if ever closed) >> >> Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I >> can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect. >> One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with >> the highway still access=private). >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> Stephen >> PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open >> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb >> >> ___ >> Talk-GB mailing list >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb > > ___ > Talk-GB mailing list > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb Links: -- [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 2019-07-26 12:26, Gareth L wrote: > This was discussed on the wiki > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate [1] with the > suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html [2] > > Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I'd evaluate > that use carefully. Access=* denotes the legal position, not the presence or absence of physical obstacles. Access=permissive is just as wrong as access=private as a proxy for gate=normally_open etc. Don't tag incorrectly for the renderer (or router!) The state of openness can vary more widely: when it is shut, it may or may not be locked (perhaps you can open it yourself if required) and may consist of multiple gates with different rules - like one half open to allow you to leave the premises, but the other half shut; or the big gate shut to keep vehicles, and a small gate open for pedestrians. In these cases mapping a single gate is not going to allow the fine-grained information to be added easily. Links: -- [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate [2] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
To bring a little international perspective to this. In outback Australia the convention is "leave the gate as you found it". Unfortunately there are some who don't. To cope with this problem some gates are hung so that they close under gravity. To keep these open the farmer locks the gate open. Few people stop and try to close the gate, and are defeated by the lock anyway. So indicating that a gate is locked .. says little as to if it is open or closed to me. I think the 2 conditions need to be separated and not assumed; locked = yes/no closed = yes/no Not certain how to handle automatic - I think they are mostly automatically closing only, some do both closing and opening and there is the possibility of automatically opening only. Err some may have automatic lock features too... In addition some gates are fastened, but can be manually opened if you figure out the mechanism (some are quite inventive!). A problem I have found is on re-fastening these inventive mechanisms .. can take some time to remember it or reinvent it. Perhaps these should be called 'locked' and the above 'key_locked'??? On 26/07/19 20:26, Gareth L wrote: This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I’d evaluate that use carefully. Gareth *From:* Andy Robinson *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM *To:* 'Stephen Colebourne' ; 'talk-gb OSM List' *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:scolebou...@joda.org] Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47 To: talk-gb OSM List Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is rarely if ever closed) Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect. One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with the highway still access=private). Any suggestions? Stephen PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
This was discussed on the wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:barrier%3Dgate with the suggestion of using a status tag. And was also discussed (9 years ago?!) https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2010-May/thread.html Tagging things as access=private does impact routing a lot, so I’d evaluate that use carefully. Gareth From: Andy Robinson Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 10:55:37 AM To: 'Stephen Colebourne' ; 'talk-gb OSM List' Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:scolebou...@joda.org] Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47 To: talk-gb OSM List Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is rarely if ever closed) Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect. One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with the highway still access=private). Any suggestions? Stephen PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
On 26/07/2019 10:46, Stephen Colebourne wrote: I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is rarely if ever closed) I'd suggest opening_hours with a narrative time (assuming that they are only used at very long intervals to avoid giving a public right of way. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
If a gate opens automatically I would say it's an access=yes regardless of how the way is tagged. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Stephen Colebourne [mailto:scolebou...@joda.org] Sent: 26 July 2019 10:47 To: talk-gb OSM List Subject: [Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is rarely if ever closed) Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect. One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with the highway still access=private). Any suggestions? Stephen PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] Gates open/closed by default
I'd like to distinguish between two kinds of gate on private roads: - those where the gate is closed by default (eg automatic closing) - those where the gate is open by default (the gate exists, but is rarely if ever closed) Currently I'm marking both as barrier=gate & access=private, but I can't see an obvoius way to mark the open/closed by default aspect. One thought was to use access=permissive on those that are open (with the highway still access=private). Any suggestions? Stephen PS, I do want to mark the gate on the map even if it is always open ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
