Re: [Talk-us] Contacting local mappers or posting a note to "mappers in area". How to. Etiquette. Horseshoe Bend, ID,

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The Mozilla service is fine for general location requests, such as ensuring
you're searching the right area for Yelp!.

Actually mapping towers is much harder.  Many rural Verizon towers
broadcast correct latitude and longitude.  For the rest
there's no location data, or fake location data.  A single physical tower
may support 1-4 carriers, and then for each
carrier 3-36 distinct radio signals on various bands.  The OpenCell and
Mozilla databases, along with OpenSignal and Sensorly, are rife with bonus
towers that don't really exist, and they're often not even close to the
proper location.  Collected data may skew
outside the center of the tower's actual footprint, or the footprint may be
uneven due to terrain or antenna strength tuning by the carrier (many tower
coverage areas are asymmetric on purpose).

To point a cell repeater or booster correctly, you want the exact location
of the target tower. That's where https://www.cellmapper.net/ comes in. The
other tools don't cut it.



Now the question at hand was not about cell towers. but rather "is there a
way to contact or post a message seen by mappers active in a certain
region".  Is there anything out there?  Would the OSM project benefit from
having such a mechanism?




On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

> Mozilla Location services and open cell ID share data. You can down load
> the Mozilla database as a CSV file. That will have the lat/lon and
> identification of every cell tower they know about.
>
> You can also download it from open cell I'd but you need an api key for
> them.
>
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[Talk-us] Contacting local mappers or posting a note to "mappers in area". How to. Etiquette. Horseshoe Bend, ID,

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I know about map notes.

Are there other ways I could post a bulletin message mappers in a given
region might see and react to?

Here it is not directly an OSM mapping task, so a map note seems
inappropriate.
But it's a task a local mapper would be perfect for, and it's no big deal.
Is there such a mechanism?

   -Bryce


NB: In particular I'm hoping to find someone willing to verify if tower SID
4881 of a certain Verizon cellular tower is coming from *Packer Joe
Overlook* near *Horseshoe Bend, ID,* or if that tower ID is coming from
above *Sweet, ID*.   It's a horribly specific request, but might be like
ten seconds for someone with
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cellmapper.net.cellmapper=en
(CellMapper ) or a similar tool.

Cell Mapper is a tool for locating cell phone towers for a variety of
purposes including tuning a cell repeater for weak signal areas.  OSM maps
are supported within the tool, but there's no data sharing with OSM that
I'm aware of.
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Re: [talk-au] Tagging - World Solar Challenge - Darwin to Adelaide

[Bryce Nesbitt]

This seems like exactly the type of data that can be mapped with a mashup.
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Re: [Talk-us] Municipal Tree Survey

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Does your small city have a GIS system, or GIS specialist?  Best to
coordinate with what they're doing if possible.

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Adam Old  wrote:

> Hello all, I am a fairly novice mapper, although I am learning quickly.
> This is my first post to talk-us, so let me know if this is the wrong place
> to ask these questions.
>
> I am currently sitting on a "Tree Board" in a small city in South Florida.
> One mandate of the board is to survey the existing tree canopy in an
> ongoing fashion and to provide recommendations for trimming, removal, or
> new plantings, to note diseases and damage, and to collect species
> information.
>
> I am a proponent of OpenStreetMap and crowdsourcing as much of the data
> collection as possible, as we are without much of a budget or staff. But I
> wonder whether this is an appropriate use for OSM, and if so, whether there
> are caveats or special things we should be thinking of. One of the other
> members of the board is an experienced GIS user, and he also likes the idea
> of using OSM.
>
> For the most part we would like to send people out using their mobile
> devices and an app like Go Map!! https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/go-map!!/
> id592990211?mt=8 or a paper survey form that we could then update OSM
> with. Hopefully this would introduce a good number of new people to OSM as
> mappers and/or users. We also were hoping to add some datapoints for the
> diameter_crown and height using LiDAR and aerial data. Any suggestions on
> this?
>
> There is some information that isn't standard for Tag:natural=tree that
> would be useful for us in this pursuit, for example whether the trees are
> damaged, need trimming, date of last trimming, etc. Maybe that is too
> specific to map and we shouldn't add that kind of data? If I were to add
> it, would I simply add my own tags? I would like to do this right.
>
> Also, is there a map view with diameter_crown displayed as the actual
> size?
>
> Also also, is there any thinking on differentiating between palm trees and
> other broadleaved trees? Seems like a worthwhile distinction, here in the
> tropics.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Overpass XAPI URL Status

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I help support a large company that uses OSM data, pulled via a specific
query at  ://www.overpass-api.de/api/xapi. This query runs about once a
month.

It recently stopped working apparently because of a hack and because of
bogus querys:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/status
The comment is "I'll restore /api/xapi when this problematic access pattern
has ceased."

The rambler instance seems to work partially, but is really slow.
--

People's thoughts on the downtime, and the future of this service?
I find it quite valuable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] What3words

[Bryce Nesbitt]

> On 11/22/2015 2:39 AM, Colin Smale wrote:
>
>>
>> I have heard a few times recently about what3words, a new novel
>> coordinate/addressing system for the whole world.
>> Could/should we be doing anything to support/facilitate/implement this
>> system in OSM?
>
>
I don't think it belongs in any way in tags,
but  it could be nifty in nominatum.  It is just another data source.


As for the "not open" or "can't depend on it", the company does have a FAQ
topic that's on point:


*If we, what3words ltd, are ever unable to maintain the what3words
> technology or make arrangements for it to be *

*maintained by a third-party (with that third-party being willing to make
> this same commitment), then we will release*

*our source code into the public domain. We will do this in such a way and
> with suitable licences and documentation*

*to ensure that any and all users of what3words, whether they are
> individuals, businesses, charitable organisations,*

*aid agencies, governments or anyone else can continue to rely on the
> what3words system.*
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing Starbucks Wikipedia Tags (Was Nominatim Weakness)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

For chain stores I tend to add a link to the corporate website only, as
deeper links are too fragile (see KeepRight for tens of thousands of OSM
URL links that no longer work).

Best in my mind is a synchronization between the corporate store finder and
OSM.  At that point a deep link to the individual store page on the
corporate page makes a lot of sense.
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[OSM-talk] Written guidance on one shop with two lines of business (e.g. Cafe & Bike Rental)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I ran into this node:

amenity cafe
amenity_1 bicycle_rental
amenity_2 bicycle_repair_station
name The Hairy Marron
website https://www.facebook.com/thehairymarron/info/
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30749887
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35562780




And pointed the editor to:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/One_feature,_one_OSM_element


But it's not really on point to this issue: how to make one unified
business with two product lines.
Examples include:

   - Ice cream + bicycle rental
   - Campground + Convenience store
   - Dry cleaner + Sewing + Flowers
   - Pizza + Cheese Retail Shop



Is there a really good written resource that explains some of the issues
around one place that fits more than one category?

Here I'd probably map the building then two nodes (cafe and bike shop with
bike rental).   But even that has some problems as opening hours and
website should be common between the nodes.

Or maybe tag the building with the name, then stick cafe & bike shop nodes
inside, and hope that data consumers catch the enclosing element.

  -Bryce



PS: The "bicycle_repair_station" was a misunderstanding of the tag: he
meant a bike shop with bike repair.
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[OSM-talk] Promoting OSM through the media

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Here's a small example of promoting OSM through watching media stories:
http://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/2015/10/27/bicycle-repair-station-installed-at-lake-fayetteville-trail/

See the comment at the end with a link to the mapping of this announced
feature.
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Re: [Talk-us] Maxweight in the USA

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I feel that all measurements recorded in OSM should include units.
And that measurements should be in local units.



A while back the Carter administration tried to force the metric system on
the USA,
which resulted in signs like:

elevation
4000 feet
1219.20 meters

Teaching people of course that the metric system is hard.
Of course in a real metric environment you'd have signs at:

1000 meters
1500 meters
2000 meters

or perhaps:

1000 feet
500 meters
2000 feet
1000 meters


All that faded, including the signs, and its really clear in the USA it's
feet for elevation and mph for speed limits.
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Re: [Talk-us] Increasing the number of US Mappers

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Martijn's recent diary post "How can we double the number of active
> mappers in the US in a year?"
>

"Bigger tent" by "adding rooms".
Make it easier for specialist communities to find the map, and bring
mappers.
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Re: [Talk-us] Should driveways be on OSM?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 12:42 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> Paul and Kevin say I should fix them. Easily said, but there are are too many 
> and there are whole towns needing alignment, and endless roads connecting 
> them that don't remotely resemble reality. No data is better than wrong data.
>>
>>  Scrambling someone else's work for your own comfort is generally
> considered harmful.
>

Bad TIGER data: that of random correspondence to the air photos, should not
be confused with "someone else's work".
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Re: [Talk-us] Should driveways be on OSM?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 10:33 PM, Tom Bloom  wrote:

> I've been deleting them if wildly wrong, and would like to delete all I
> encounter. Any ideas?
>

When an area of tiger data has dozens of such driveways, which bear
basically random correspondence with air photos,
I'll delete them also.

They're not good data.  If someone wants to map driveways, fine, they can
start from scratch and be ahead.
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Re: [OSM-talk] THIS is the kind of enthusiasm some would reject

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 8:52 PM, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 9 Sep 2015 23:15:42 -0400
>> Russ Nelson  wrote:
>>
>> > What's this? Is it a trail or is it an abandoned railroad? See the
>> > spike? Where did it come from if not the abandoned railroad?
>> > Or the lump of coal hundreds of miles from any coal field?
>> >
>> > It's not a track.
>>
>> This is a track.
>>
>
It's a track.
A track that could well be part of an abandoned railway relation
(incorporating other bits of the railway extincting and not).

But the primary key is definitely highway=track, perhaps with some
secondary keys that hit at it's former use.

-
Note that "rail trail" is a thing: and a presently mappable thing: this
should be clear to all concerned.
A "rail to trail" or "rail to track" conversion has present day meaning.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 3:45 AM, moltonel 3x Combo 
wrote:

> Lots of former railway land is now privately owned, sometimes even
> before the rails get removed. So the fact that there was an abandoned
> (dismantled ?) railroad in his backyard didn't, on its own, mean that
> he didn't own the place.
>

In some case the ROW is an easement, meaning the railroad gained the right
to cross
private land.  Many roads and a huge fraction of utility lines are
easements, not fee ownership.

The easement may or may not expire when the railroad stops running.

In the USA the process of "railbanking" keeps the easement active, on the
notion that the contiguous land may needed in the future or far future for
restoration of rail or other transport services.  Thus the active railroad,
or active trail, may in fact be on private land.
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Re: [OSM-talk] THIS is the kind of enthusiasm some would reject

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Ian Dees  wrote:

> Show him OSM for the abandoned rails that he can see and point him to
> OpenHistoricalMap for the historical, no-longer-present rails if he's
> excited about that.
>

Sigh.
You present OHM like it's a vibrant project that gets lots of exposure,
where people who flock to edit.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>
> Speaking of housing developments, I earlier pointed to the south end
> of Cazenovia, where a housing development has an obvious railbed to
> the north, and an obvious railbed to the south, and in people's
> backyards, a treeline where the railbed was.
>
> Should the map look like this (A)?  ___   __ 
>
> Or should it look like this (B)?___---__-
>
> Some people are arguing for A. I argue that B is a better
> representation of what is there (the underscores) because it includes
> the dismantled portions (the dashes).
>

I've worked on "rails to trails" projects where the physical trace of the
railbed was
subsumed by fences, lines of trees and (in once case) a swimming pool.

But the legal right of way still existed.  Those homeowners were using
property they did
not own tax free: encroaching.  Once the encroachments were cleared, the
railroad
was turned into a trail (connecting A to B).

Thus something existed of the railway even through the backyards:
the legal right of way, the arsenic and lead, and ultimately
the desire to reconnect the bits.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM.org rendering and features [was Re: The Proposed Great Colour Shift]

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 4:51 PM, Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl wrote:

 We have very uncomfortable situation with rendering styles on our main
 website: out of 5 styles available only 2 are general, and only one -
 default one - is to some reasonable extent an OSM community effort
 (technically it's open, in practice not much people are active there, it is
 rather detached from other parts of OSM and is rather conservative
 socially).


I see it as a relatively unhappy situation as well.  The osm-carto
maintainers spent a lot of time fending off requests and demands from
outsiders: it looks like a castle with barbarians at the gate.  I think a
new style, as open as the tagging scheme and database, is a way out both
for osm-carto's maintainers and for meeting the wider community needs.

--

Separately there's tension over the clutter of the map.  This really
should be broken down:

* Line styles and fills
* points of interest
* urban vs. rural areas.

New line styles and fills present a visual burden to understanding the
map.  Too many dashes dots and subtle color variations and everything looks
like mush.

New POI's, particularly obscure ones, impact few people because they are
usually not visible.  These often come with text labels that
help clarify the meaning of any symbol.  There really should be little
barrier to rendering more POI types.

Many issues are density dependent.  In a rural area showing everything is
generally just fine and desired.  For urban areas overload sets in by the
time the fire hydrants, manhole covers, electric lines, bike racks,  baby
hatches and crosswalks are all rendered. There's a lot of interesting work
to be done in the area of density specific rendering: rendering that's
sensitive to the scale density and land use type.


---
The map is also largely delivered in electronic form.  There's a lot of
potential for delivering dynamic legends and click for more information,
resolving many issues of potential viewer confusion.  The flat static map
need not communicate everything.
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Re: [Talk-us] New MapRoulette challenge - fix railway crossings

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I too tried this task, and it marked as complete tasks that I was not able
to finish.  The moment I
pressed the key to load in JOSM, the task was marked as done.  It never
loaded in JOSM either.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Summer/Winter/Seasonal Imagery Air Photos for use in JOSM?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

In many areas, multiple seasons of photos are taken (in those cases Google
Maps seems to display winter images
in winter, summer images in summer).  Is there any way with Bing maps to
request specific imagery dates, or see
multiple versions?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Summer/Winter/Seasonal Imagery Air Photos for use in JOSM?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Bryce,
 Where are you mapping?  If you are mapping in the US there may be USGS
 Large Scale Imagery available in the area you are mapping.


In this case Andermatt, Switzerland.

But the question was more general: is there a mechanism to specify a season
for air imagery?
Is there an effort to provide a Winter/Summer set?

I know that various imagery providers target specific seasons: I know that
MassGIS and MassHighway target fall when leaves are off
but snows have not yet arrived.
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[OSM-talk] Summer/Winter/Seasonal Imagery Air Photos for use in JOSM?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I'm mapping some alpine areas, and it sure would be handy to have access to
summer air photo imagery.

What I see now from Bing is an odd mix of tiles in winter and summer dress.

Is there a seasonally consistent imagery source available for JOSM?
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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Fwd: About openstreetmap Name Conflict

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The best course of action to scams like this is take no action.
Replying just gets you on a list of suckers.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Mappers and apps should focus on relations at the very start

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote:

 Okay, but most relations are invisible.


Relations are visible* if the editor makes them visible.*

The iD editor introduced an entirely synthetic primitive: the area.
Thus, in iD, the area is visible.
The iD editor, or an editor like it, could introduce a grouping, and make
it visible.

Relations are not only possible to visualize, they're interesting,  Click
on Main Street
and see the 12 bus lines that use Main street?  Interesting.  Click on a
line and learn
it forms the USA/Canadian Border, 8,891 km long, consisting of  5000 odd
line segments?  Interesting
and instructive.

A series of iD plugins for visualizing specific types of relations would
rock.  And of course in iD style
they'd be called something different, like, say, Turn Restrictions or a
Public Transit Route or Site
or a Level 8 Administrative Boundary between X and Y.  The word relation
need
never come into it.

--

By all-but-ignoring relation editing, Potlach and iD only make it easy to
ignore or even *damage* relations.  It's all downside.

That's not what you want for entry level editing.  A good experience for a
starting user is they made a positive contribution,
they saw the results rendered, and they did not mess anything up.  When the
editor makes messing up
an invisible single click (or inadvertent click) operation, it leads to
stress all around.

Relations are invisible only in editors that* leave them in the shadows.*
An editor that ignores or tries to hide a thing is unlikely to be the best
way to edit (or preserve) the invisible thing.
It's a form of fake simplicity: making a given edit seem to be simpler
than it really can be.
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Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER

[Bryce Nesbitt]

 In other words, it won't route over a rural road tagged as
 highway=residential
 tiger:reviewed=no


Most of the well reviewed Tiger I see still has this tag.
People don't know to delete it.  The automatic delete on edit does not
apply to tiger:reviewed (it applies to a Tiger tag I wish was kept
instead!).
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Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

  What about in the situations where locals would like to make their own
 map but this is not financially feasible? If we are creating truly a free
 map of the entire world it is important to figure out how not to just make
 a map of the privileged. Should lack of access to internet and technology
 be a reason someone can't contribute to this map?


So what about supporting efforts like one laptop per child, to seed
technology that would never be
developed locally.  And with those tools, see what people create.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson j...@betra.is
wrote:

Who said anything about Westerners? Projects like mapping entire Botswana
 and Lesotho is not for HOT issues, acute distress. It is for making it
 easier for the local economies to grow, to use maps like the Western world
 does to great effect.


Do you -- or anyone -- have any evidence at all as to who *reads* and *uses*
the OSM maps in these areas?
Is there any evidence at all it's local people.  Or is it all western aid
agencies?

Are the OSM maps even in a format that local people or local businesspeople
find useful?
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] [Talk-us] README tag with editor support

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

 The readme tag is more of a bandaid. A better way might be to capture the
 image date as a tag. The editor could then issue a warning message if the
 image date is older than the feature being modified.


The readme is more flexible.  Out of date imagery is an important cause of
an armchair mapper
undoing a local mapper's work, but not the only cause.

The image date will often be older than the feature, when using Bing
imagery.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Tagging] README tag with editor support

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

 The readme tag is more of a bandaid. A better way might be to capture the
 image date as a tag. The editor could then issue a warning message if the
 image date is older than the feature being modified.


The readme is more flexible.  Out of date imagery is an important cause of
an armchair mapper
undoing a local mapper's work, but not the only cause.

The image date will often be older than the feature, when using Bing
imagery.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 5:12 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com
wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 tl;dr version: linking to wikidata is probably ok, including wikidata
 could be a minefield.


 I don't think anybody was actually suggesting to include bits and pieces
 of Wikidata into *the* OSM database. I think the idea is for third parties
 to use Wikidata as a complementary source to fill in the bits and pieces
 that are not in OSM (either by design or by incompleteness). Of course,
 those third parties are well advised of the legal minefield that you
 mention.


I suggested that.

I feel that for name translations *mirroring* wikidata *into* OSM has
compelling advantages.  It makes it easy for data consumers and
ties the data where it belongs.  It's pretty easy to mechanically
maintain.  Should spam data arrive via Wikidata/Wikpedia, it can leave via
the same mechanism.

If OSM is to be a language neutral dataset, no given language should be
special (beyond the keys and values which are English by convention, but
need not be shown to mappers or readers that way).  The legal minefield can
be resolved, especially with OSM and Wikmedia Foundation as organizations
with a very compatible mission.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Keulen (was Re: Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:59 PM, Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de
wrote:

 - I had no internet connectivity in that situation, hence wikidata, any
 other external database or even non-copied OSM data was not an option.


If wikidata is mined for it's rich database of names, that data can (and
should) either be periodically mirrored into
the OSM data structures, or provided in bulk form for things like offline
smartphone apps.

Any given user likely needs only one or two of the languages present.

Using wikidata vastly increases the number of available local variants of
each place name:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84

-

That said there's still a place for copying the visible on the ground
information, such as if a street sign or town welcome sign is
available in multiple scripts.
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Re: [Talk-us] National Forest nature_reserve?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_areas_of_the_United_States


Keep in mind that BLM, National Forest and National Parks can all have
*wilderness* areas that are have
stricter limits than the wider reserve.

National lands are rarely monolithic: neither landcover nor conservation
status are likely to be constant
over the entire relation or polygon.


Resource extraction is a strong distinction, and it comes in shades of
gray.  Some areas are given over
almost completely to extraction, others are reserved primarily for natural
processes.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 5:04 PM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
wrote:

 iD shows oneway=unknown if it's not set. If it's unknown, iD should not
 show oneway at all.
 OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. Similarly
 are 'categories' like man_made', and 'amenity'.
 Why can we not simply stick to hard facts rather guessing what
 categor(ies) an object fits in

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb https://sites.google.com/site/millomweb/index/introduction -
 For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via *the area's premier website - *
 *currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
 property  pets*


Perhaps http://wikimapia.org/ will better match your needs, and offer more
peace for your family, property and pets.
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Re: [OSM-talk] QA tools: deprecated or actually suggested to replace tags

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I feel the quicker an old tag scheme is deprecated and migrated, the better.
As long as it's not *too* quick that is.


Something like:

   - A co-tagging period of say three months including:
   - A post-use evaluation.
  - Ability for mappers to object.
  - Evaluation against stated goals.
   - A notice to data consumers
  - an API inserted deprecation_warning=yes tag
   - A community based re-tagging effort (which may be task manager based,
   semi mechanical or mechanical as needed).

It should not be all that easy to just churn the tag space, but when it's
time to move on, I feel it best serves the project to actually move on and
use
the new tags with gusto.


By the time retagging happens, most or all data consumers should have
migrated, and
the retagging should have minimal effect.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue

[Bryce Nesbitt]

 The tag oneway=true is extinct in the database.


Without defending the author of the Craigslist stylesheet: tracking OSM
data changes is hard.

In part due to the negative attitude towards cleanup mechanical edits, the
data is all over the place.
1, -1, reverse, true, false, no, yes, maybe.  Aghgh.  Stuff gets deprecated
then rots in place for weeks
months years.

How could a rendering engine keep up with all the positive and negative
terms people dream up,
wikifi, and then use inconsistently?

-

Mechanical edits help data consumers.  Clear tag descriptions help data
consumers and mappers.
Editor validations helps data consumers, and it's rather weak right now.
API level rejection of certain
edit patterns would help even more.

A clear migration path between tagging schemes would help data consumers a
lot.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Reporting routing problems

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
wrote:

 Notes provides that feedback as long as the poster was logged in.


Notes are often missing three things:   the feedback mechanism, the route
origin  destination, and a clear description of the problem.

Improvement to notes could be:
1) Attach the most recently routed origin  destination.
2) Add a field for enter your email which will be used only for
communication about this issue and destroyed when the issue is resolved.
Encourage them to register, but at least let them leave contact info.
3) Include a brief description of how complete a note needs to be, if the
poster expects another human to interpret it.
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Re: [Talk-us] Truck stop gas stations as caravan_site

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 7:34 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi folks,

 I was wondering if it is appropriate to tag truck stops with
 tourism=caravan_site. I've noticed a lot of them tagged this way,
 presumably because many of the truck stop chains allow overnight parking of
 RVs, some have dump stations, etc.

 The wiki on caravan_site seems to imply a more specialized place like a
 real RV campsite, which wouldn't include a truck stop.



The original intent of  caravan_site seems to be exactly for that: parking
lots for 1 or 2 night stays of caravans.
If the place was actually nice enough to stay for days, it would be a
camp_site.

Either way the truck stop might have amenities of sanitary_dump_station
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Toilet_Holding_Tank_Disposal,
water_point, and perhaps amenity=toilets for humans.
If it has a sanitary dump station, but you don't know the exact location,
tag sanitary_dump_station=yes.
Tag sanitary_dump_station=no is important information here also.


In Europe there are hundreds of gravel parking lots marked caravan_site:
the sites consist sorely of a parking and (perhaps) water and toilet
facilities.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote:

 just a few thoughts:

 What is the value of a 1 time mechanical edit cleanup ? From the moment
 you ran your script, new data can arrive in the OSM with the wrong values.
 Will you run your script daily ? What if a data consumer obtains the data
 between 2 runs of your script ?


In my experience, two rounds of mechanical edit are sufficient.
The first gets the bulk of the problem, and generally shifts the mapping
behavior as well.
Then maybe a few weeks later check if anyone is using the old tags and
reach out to them via private message.

The value of a 1 time edit is high, as long as there is sufficient
consensus or apathy about the change.



*The potential for data consumer impact seems highly overrated on this
mailing list.  *By the time something is mechanically edited data consumers
have generally moved on.  See also
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Deprecated_features

For example take amenity=dog_bin.  That's a minor tag, and chances are
any data consumer also processes
amenity=dog_waste_bin.  Thus retagging dog_bin - dog_waste_bin would
have *zero data consumer impact no matter when the script is run.*


---
The tag migration is not the issue really.  The problem comes in when the
old tag was semantically unclear and can't be migrated.
I ran into that with excrement tags actually: one set of excrement tags was
used for *four distinct features* and to clean that up I had to look
carefully at
the context and/or ask a local mapper to verify on the ground.  Fortunately
the context made the right tag clear in most of the cases: but it could
have been really hard.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue

[Bryce Nesbitt]

After a long stretch of oneway=yes, I might indeed tag oneway=no
just to keep someone from assuming I'd made a mistake.  oneway=no is a
declaration,
as opposed to a lack of information.
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Re: [Talk-GB] too many universities in Cambridge

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 3:31 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:

 On 23/05/15 16:36, David Earl wrote:
  As I said, I think the upward compatible change for this is to use a tag
  with the unique ID of whatever operator 

 While not popular, the addition of identifiers IS now gaining traction,
 especially where the underlying data relates to imports from other
 places.


+1
I am in the camp that strongly supports retaining primary key references on
the OSM side.
It works great, and the occasional problem (for example manual edits
deleting the ref) appear to
be exactly that: occasional.
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Re: [Talk-us] Strange changeset found

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The mapper in question is still active, with reasonable edits.
So it looks like a mistake, or a newbie mistake.
Revert anyway.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Proposed import of approximately 6 bicycle repair tool stands in the UK

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:08 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

 There is really no need to import this type of data in the UK where the
 mapping culture is to walk/cycle and just go and have a looksee. Well that
 applies to UK culture in general,  choosing to walk is not viewed with
 suspicion.

 Imho notes offer an easy to see/navigate to and are visible in osmand.
 Phil (trigpoint )



The import proposal that triggered the above discussion is now complete.


For the UK stations I added map notes for each of the six locations, but
none of those were followed up on by UK mappers.
The job was finished by my ringing up the reception desk at each of the
locations, and asking where the tool stand is.
Oddly, nobody thought I was nutters.

In contrast the USA import was done by importing the questionable data and
adding a map note.  That backlog of notes is rapidly dwindling.  Most were
spot on, some were across the street, almost all were within visual
distance.  One station was eventually declared MIA and deleted from both
OSM and the vendor database.  139 unique users made edits:

Adam_Piszczek 1
Agaric 1
AlgunCesar 1
BMEEOFTAI04_BZ2B48 1
Bkrumenauer 1
BrunoRemy 1
CaSalazarR 1
ChaoticMind 2
Chrysopras 1
Claudius Henrichs 2
Der Harry 1
Dero Bike Racks 7  --- vendor --
Didger85 1
Donabel 1
FiroK 1
Fringillus 1
GBGrant 2
Galifardeu 1
Geert De Deckere 1
GeoGladbecker 1
GeoLaci 1
Gianluca Maggiori 1
Graham Jones 2
Gunnar Gissel 1
Irmaodassa 1
JEJackman 11
James Derrick 1
Janjko 1
JasonWoof 2
Jeff McAdams 1
Jesper Henriksen 1
Johancondor 1
Junaid Ahmed 2
Luuuddooo 1
Lübeck 1
M!dgard 1
MKnight 1
Mark McCarhy 1
Michael Bey 1
MikeN 1
Minh Nguyen 1
Nate_Wessel 2
Nessmuk 2
Nick Bolten 1
Ollie 1
Omnific 1
P JDB 1
Paul Johnson 3
Peter Beard 1
Peter Dobratz 3
Pourya Eini 1
RationalTangle 2
RicoElectrico 3
RoadGeek_MD99 1
Roshan shrestha 1
Ryan Lash 1
SK53 1
Severin Kann 10
Sto-Sto 1
Sung Choi 1
Tika Rijal 1
Timothy Smith 1
ToeBee 2
Tumulucc 1
Walter Schlögl 1
Willis92 1
Yevgeny Gromov 1
Yiyi (itwikipedia) 1
Your Village Maps 1
aharvey 2
airdace 1
alesangiorgio 1
andis_project 2
andy51edge 2
bakasana 1
bbmiller 1
brbbl 1
briancartier 1
c-j-b 1
c1pr1an 1
camilacortess9 1
catoblepa 1
chachafish 4
chrismismis 1
dcguj 1
devinpp 1
dhetteix 1
digobike 1
dkunce 1
dolphinling 3
dydychan 1
elyk 1
erjiang 3
evills246 1
facucaldo 1
geigerni 1
geoffengland 1
gnuckx 1
gualtero 1
hadry 2
highflyer74 1
hobbesvsboyle 3
innosaint 2
johanespeter9 1
juan m arroyo 1
jwass 1
kamal_1jr 1
kcmapguy 1
kocio 2
kre3d 2
lasslo 1
luschi 3
marek kleciak 1
marsupilud 1
mccord42 1
midnightcomm 1
mikecc 2
mlayman09 1
nestor delgado 1
neuhausr 2
nunatakGIS 1
panarchos 1
paulo106 1
pnorman 1
rolvtuvom 4
rowisp 1
sa62039 1
sankeytm 3
shamai 1
sq7obj 1
svance92 1
szali 1
szydzio 1
tbsprs 1
treestryder 3
tyr_asd 1
wizz 1
Сергій Дубик 1



I've invited tool stand vendors I know of to contribute additional
locations directly to OSM.

This is a feature that if you need it, you really want to find the closest
one, because almost by definition your bike is not working well.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Portal for users/casual mappers (Re: Tagging FOR the renderer)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:14 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 You must have misunderstood something there, the top 50'000 (roughly 10%
 of all) or so mappers have contributed essentially all (roughly 95%)
 data to OSM. The long tail is not unimportant, but from a pure volume
 point of view OSM is very dependent on its core contributors. Not that
 this is a surprise or different than any other similar enterprise.


Keep in mind the type of contribution is different.

This year I edited 250,000 trees with a bad tag.  That's a huge number of
nodes, but not a significant contribution of knowledge.
The long tail editors on the other hand may be supplying data in unique
ways requiring local knowledge.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Ref names on Residential roads

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yeah, I think I preferred the highway_authority_ref only to differentiate it 
 from a reference applied by any other body. You could have more than one 
 official_ref depending on the referencing body.


Why not
ref:highway_authority

To keep the tags just a little bit organized?

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Re: [Talk-GB] Ref names on Residential roads

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Paul Sladen o...@paul.sladen.org wrote:

 My hope was that the owners of the mechanic retaggering bots involved
 would carefully reflect upon this advice and instead try to
 betterunderstand the subject matter in greater detail beforehand.


Nothing in the UK was mechanically retagged.

While there was not global concordance on all issues relating waterway and
land tagging, there was substantial concordance, and quite a few
participants, including a number of seamark mappers. In other words,
several steps forward, more to go.

Unlike in the xkcd cartoon, the 14 old standards don't have to keep
existing.  The number of different styles can be reduced if not to one,
then to less than many.  In the case of holding tank tagging at least
what's left is semantically clear: previously four distinct features were
routinely mapped to indistinguishable tags.  I don't want to pull a boat or
motorhome up to a dog waste trash bin, and nor does anyone else.

Waiting for the grand unified scheme could be an xkcd cartoon of its own.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Ref names on Residential roads

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:35 AM, SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk wrote:
 On 12/05/2015 17:28, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

 Why not
 ref:highway_authority

 To keep the tags just a little bit organized?

 https://xkcd.com/927/
 (sorry)

Yeah, but unlike the real world depicted in the cartoon, OSM *can*
mechanically retag.


That actually worked recently: some 14 methods of tagging toilet dump
stations collapsed
down to three... and it was done with minimal disruption.

It's three only because of retagging reluctance specific to the UK: a few
dozen land and waterway nodes.
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Re: [Talk-de] Update of german Aral petrol stations [2]

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Looks like good work.
Thank you.
Are there any Marine or Aviation fuelling stations in this dataset?

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[Talk-de] German translation assist: wiki

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Would someone be willing to update:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dbicycle_repair_station

With a good translation for:

*A shop that offers bicycle repair should be tagged as a shop. This tag is
intended for standalone repair stations which are typically located outside
and open 24/7. Please see Tag:shop=bicycle. Please do not tag shops with
this tag!*

And perhaps also for:


*The manufacturer of the station, if it is a standard design (e.g. Dero
or Bike Fixstation, or RepairSTAN). For a list of vendors see this
guide
http://guides.obviously.com/Public-Bicycle-Work-and-Repair-Stands-2/1925.*
--
Unfortunately this tag is getting used for things that are not unattended
tool stands.
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Re: [Talk-us] Peculiar values for natural key in California

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:17 AM, Jerry Clough - OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:

 I have just been looking through the long tail of natural values and
 natural=K2156 stuck out like a sore thumb. These seem all to be nodes
 imported around 2009 roughly around Salinas :
 http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/9hM.


That's a Tiger feature class of Government Center.
http://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/maps-data/data/tiger/tgrshp2009/TGRSHP09AF.pdf
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.com/search?q=K2165#values

It's a bad import, but a small one.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
wrote:

 On 10 May 2015 at 23:15, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
  Xxzme had plenty of warning.

 I see no *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*; perhaps you could
 point me to it; bearing in mind my comment:


It might have been nice to have a wiki admin to this, but wiki admins are
scarce.

Xxzme wrote a page on the social aspect of OSM: then failed to live it.

Of the dozens of people interacting with Xxzme, none had the authority or
position
to issue such a *recent, clear and unequivocal warning*.
In a social and nearly leaderless project, the repeated conflicts with a
broad spectrum
of users serve as notice.

--
I expect to see Xxzme back under a different username soon.
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Re: [OSM-talk] contact: tags

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote:

  1. That's not how it's been used currently
  2. How would we ensure every mapper knows the difference?
  3. Even if for some magical reason people understand the difference, how
  many will bother checking that?

 #4 how do we know how many of all these phone=* and other entries are
 valid and verifiable? Was there ever any attempt at quality control?


The keepright web validator, and the related MapRoulette challenge,
make an attempt at this.  The website= is loaded, and matched to tags
included
name= and phone=.

Mostly it finds restaurants that closed years ago.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Please ban Xxzme in wiki

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 5:47 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk
wrote:

 On 10 May 2015 at 11:40, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:

  Consulting with a few other users, I have gone ahead and blocked the
 user.
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:BlockList?wpTarget=Xxzme

 In the absence of blatant vandalism or base abuse, I would have
 expected, first, a recent, clear and unequivocal warning on the user's
 talk page, with a suitably direct subject heading (Warning: you may
 be blocked from editing, or suchlike), and a statement of what the
 user should do differently, or not do, in order to avoid the bock.


Xxzme had plenty of warning.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Problems with the wiki (was Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The wiki's decreasing level of edit energy, combined with it's
increasing reach is a problem.
Wiki text now appears directly in dozens of automated editing and QA tools.

With JOSM style presets, there's a filter between activity on the wiki
and what gets wider coverage.
With iD style automatic import, the wiki becomes the documentation.

That combined with a rouge user driving others away from the wiki
really sets up a bad situation.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Problems with the wiki (was Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

There's another problem page at OpenStreetMap is a social activity.
Sigh.  Lots of good cleanup edits.  Lots of blundering elephant edits.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Problems with the wiki (was Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

More on this issue at:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:OpenStreetMap_is_a_social_activity#Deletion
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Re: [OSM-talk] Problems with the wiki (was Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

If you look at the edit history, there's evidence of more than one user ID
showing a supporting pattern of edits.  This too is concerning.
--
The irony is a non-social editor creating a page about OpenStreetMap is a
social activity.

At this point it's an edit war, one that user Xxzme seems to intend to win.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Problems with the wiki (was Why OSM and not another collaborative mapping service?)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 I think that interacting with so many members of the community on such a
 scale as Xxzme does is at least *difficult* and prone to more friction
 if all you're willing to give away is a user name. It's harder to be
 part of a community that way.


It is very difficult to make large scale edits without friction.  It is
difficult to make valuable cleanup efforts,
in part because even an overwhelmingly positive effort can be objected to
by one loud person.  This
applies to wiki, tag cleanup and more.

That said Xxzme does not appear to try to work in community at all.
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Re: [Talk-de] Brunnen : Check tagging near Hannover?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Rolf Eike Beer e...@sf-mail.de wrote:


 The proper tagging would probably be something like:
   man_made=water_well
   drinking_water=yes
 But, those would show up on the hiking map, which is equally wrong.


Taginfo shows use of:

pumping_station=water
 or
man_made=pumping_station
 or
waterway=pumping_station   (some of which are sewage pumpouts for boats,
e.g. waterway=sanitary_dump_station).
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[Talk-de] Brunnen : Check tagging near Hannover?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

waterway=water_point is defined as a place to fill fresh water holding
tanks.
There are several marked as Brunnen near Hannover.
Could someone check that tagging?

http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/9cX
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overpass Quotas

[Bryce Nesbitt]

You could decide to require a User-Agent that's customized,
with reference to contact info (e.g. a URL or project name that can be
looked up on the OSM Wiki).

That's not an unreasonable restriction, for your free service.
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[Talk-us] More bicycle tool stands

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I've uploaded more bicycle tool stands under:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Dero_Bike_Repair

Each of these comes from a vendor dataset, collected via cell phone gps.
A note has been added asking local mappers to help position the pins
exactly.

Hundreds of these have been field checked at this point: most were fine.
Two so far were not found on the ground and deemed false contributions, and
removed.

---

This feature is not yet rendered.
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Re: [OSM-talk] contact: tags

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone
 attempted an undiscussed mechanical edit of this in the past and got
 reverted. Similar examples are power=sub_station, power=station,
 oneway=true, oneway=1, oneway=-1, etc. There tends to be a widespread dislike 
 of large-scale mechanical edits among the OSM administrators so I don't want 
 to do that.


Yes, an undiscussed edit will be pounced on like raw meat by a hungry tiger.

A discussed edit is very different.
I recently completed a 250,000+ node mechanical edit.  The process of
gaining consensus was tedious and lengthy, but it happened, and the
edits were not reverted.  I did another with 1000 nodes, consolidating
a dozen diverse tagging styles.  That also is holding without revert.

Proper mechanical edits have tremendous benefits for data consumers.
There are many good reasons to do them, but carefully, and with the
community on board.

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Re: [talk-au] camp sites

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,
 My only observation would be that in Australia toilets and no water seems
 a very common combination at camp grounds.  You know the kind of campground
 I'm talking about, with either drop toilets or unpotable  water.
 It would probably be worthwhile making a call on the classification that
 applies to these kinds of camp grounds.
 Ian.


I currently tag those:

amenity=camp_site
drinking_water=no
toilets=no


Or

amenity=camp_site
drinking_water=no
toilets=yes
toilets:disposal=pitlatrine

If the camp_site is mapped as an area, you can omit the toilets=yes tag but
not the drinking_water=no
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Re: [OSM-talk] contact: tags

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I am proposing that the contact: set of tags (contact:phone,
 contact:website, etc.) be depreciated and replaced with the simpler
 set of tags (phone, website, etc.) I am not proposing that anyone do
 any mechanical edits.


Without a mechanical edit, what's the real benefit?
Since there are tens of thousands of each, rendering, editing and
processing tools must cover all styles.
A human viewer will see each style also.

-
Mechanical tag consolidation is possible in OSM, though it's pretty hard.
I recently completed tag
consolidation on motorhome toilet dump stations (though failed to get
consensus on the related boat feature).  That
was a much smaller feature count, but dozens of tagging styles.
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[Talk-us] New MapRoulette Challenge: Website Mismatch: Give it a try

[Bryce Nesbitt]

This is a website keyword matcher.

For example a website associated with name=Cafe Fanny/phone=555-1212
would be expected to have at least the words Cafe, Fanny, or a matching
phone number.

The match is fuzzy. Any website with no match is flagged for human review.
These are often:

   - Spam websites.
   - Hijacked domains.
   - Business that have changed focus.
   - Out of business businesses.
   - Website has moved.

There are false positives also:

   - Redirects with error codes in the 300 range.
   - Flash based websites with no text whatsoever.
   - Chain stores and schools that frequently reorganize their pages.
   - Small regional chains where the store page is either non-existent, or
   a URL that's sure to chance in the future.  The root URL is better, but
   won't match the name on the node.

If you work on the challenge you'll appreciated crafting a future proof
URL.
The best URL for osm is the simplest one if possible (no
http://example.org/a/b/q?q=50505 ).

The challenge shows how quickly restaurants in particular come and go.



-
The challenge works regionally so you don't have to save after every node.
Right now it's set for the Northwest USA:

http://maproulette.org/#t=webtegrity/www-osmid-1723639413
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Re: [talk-au] Re campsites

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Adrian Plaskitt adrianplask...@hotmail.com
wrote:

 Greetings all. I think toilets and  presence of drinking water should be
separate pieces of information easily obvious to any user. While all
campsites with drinking water will have toilets, the reverse is often not
true in NSW.


Hmm.. I've camped at sites with water but no developed toilets.




What is more common though is a campsite with water, but no developed water:

   - developed, potable water (drinking_water=yes)
   - available clean water (spring)
   - available untreated water (potable if filtered or boilet)
   - compromised water (difficult or impossible to make potable)
   - no water seasonally
   - no water in any season (drinking_water=no)
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Re: [Talk-us] New MapRoulette Challenge: Website Mismatch: Give it a try

[Bryce Nesbitt]

This is a website keyword matcher.

For example a website associated with name=Cafe Fanny/phone=555-1212
would be expected to have at least the words Cafe, Fanny, or a matching
phone number.

The match is fuzzy. Any website with no match is flagged for human review.
These are often:

   - Spam websites.
   - Hijacked domains.
   - Business that have changed focus.
   - Out of business businesses.
   - Website has moved.

There are false positives also:

   - Redirects with error codes in the 300 range.
   - Flash based websites with no text whatsoever.
   - Chain stores and schools that frequently reorganize their pages.
   - Small regional chains where the store page is either non-existent, or
   a URL that's sure to change in the future.

If you work on the challenge you'll appreciate well crafted and future
proof URLs.
The challenge shows how quickly restaurants in particular come and go.


-
The challenge works regionally so you don't have to save after every node.
Right now it's set for the Northwest USA:

http://maproulette.org/#t=webtegrity/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Chain Store Cleanup

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:

 I think eventually chains will see the light, and publish their locations
 in an open format compatible manner.
 At that point a quick cross check with OSM would clear up most of the
 issues.


 I think this depends on the chain and how much they care about this.  I
 believe there was a previous import of Lowe's locations, and this data was
 *woefully* inaccurate.  At least in Oklahoma, these often ended up well
 into the close but no cigar territory, often being blocks away and in
 nonsensical spots kinda-sorta close, but not close enough to get accurate
 routing.  On the other hand, there was a pretty nicely detailed import of
 Love's truck stops a while back that included a fair amount of detail, for
 which the only issue I take with it is that it mistagged most as caravan
 sites instead of service plazas.


The import style I've used ignores the store's geometry or position after
the first import.

In other words, we can trust the store's store finder to have reasonably
accurate information about opening hours and which store locations
are currently open for business.   Any the additional imports copy over
opening_hours type stuff, but leave the OSM geometry alone.
If the chain lists a location as 'closed', that generates note to a local
mapper.

--
Armchair mapping of chain stores faces another problem: while some chains
have iconic buildings, on occasion they sell
out.  Thus a mom  pop restaurant in a iHop shell, or an old style Taco
Bell that's now a pizza joint.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Chain Store Cleanup

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Johan C osm...@gmail.com wrote:

 That's a good question Rob. 'Seeing the light' possibly means maintaining
 your own platform/apps as a business. I did ask McDonald's back in 2012, I
 got the following reply: We put focus on optimizing this McDonald's app
 and want to keep the management of the associated database as efficiently
 as possible. Keeping databases for others makes that ambition tricky. With
 the McDonald's app we also communicate information about McDonald's
 products, actions, nutrition values, different locations and opening times
 of the restaurants and the McDrives. Also, restaurant renovations and
 therefore temporary adjusted opening hours are regularly incorporated into
 an update. For the above reasons, we will not consent to the inclusion of
 McDonald's restaurants in Openstreetmap.


They also want the eyeballs on their website, not ours.
I think they understood the request well.

Perhaps the right approach is to ask for limited access to specific
fields.  The position of the restaurant showing up a a benefit to McD
stockholders.
The opening hours might be seen as competition for eyeballs.


Beyond that it's unclear if querying for existence is a violation of any
sort. In other words if I ping
https://ajax.bigchainstore.com?storeid=2323format=json  and it comes up
empty, I learned something.  But did I also violate their terms of service?
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[OSM-talk] Holistic Map Editing (Was: Chain Store Cleanup)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 OSM editing is usually holistic - you work on many aspects of the map
 in an area. If the map has many edits by different people in an area
 then I can reasonably assume that it has a certain minimum quality
 because these people are on the ground fixing things.


 holistic editing is not the only sort.  The community is more diverse
than that.

You'll find mappers seeking out one feature (e.g. dog walk parks).
Mappers doing wiki or tag gardening (like the original poster).
Mappers working to consolidate tagging, and mappers working to split apart
tagging and make it explicit.
And those focused on data imports.

--

Quality on the ground is probably better measured by views, both among
mobile
apps like OsmAnd, and the tile servers.  Who cares enough about the map in
certain
areas to look at it?
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Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
wrote:

 Apologies for using English on the German list.

 I would like to seek additional voices on moving German motorhome sewage
 tagging from:

   amenity=waste_disposal
   name=Aire de services camping-car
   waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes
   waste_disposal:grey_water=yes

 To:
   amenity=sanitary_dump_station
   name=Aire de services camping-car


This tagging is now complete in Germany.


No information was removed (*chemical_toilet* became *black_water*+
*tank_chemicals*).
Other mappers are planning to add the type of connection.
Another mapper with the Seamark project will be working on German marina
nodes.
No biological dump stations were found.


 3) There is separate tagging for marine facilities for boats, as it is
  improper to direct a motorhome driver to use a marine-only facility.
 sounds reasonable


I used waterway=sanitary_dump_station for these.  waterway=pump-out and
seamark:small_craft_facility:category=pump-out
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:seamark:small_craft_facility:category%3Dpump-out
are
also in use.





Dieser Tag beschreibt einen Ort an dem Sanitärabfälle, die in Tanks
gesammelt wurden, entsorgt werden können.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dsanitary_dump_station
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

You can see the issue of how to tag this has come up several times:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station#See_Also
With no consensus tagging diverged many ways.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:

 tag - disposal_point

 Values
 pump_out:grey (No sewage)
 pump_out:black(Contains Sewage)
 pump_out:bilge(May contain oil)
 pump_out:restricted   (note advise restrictions)
 dump:black(may have restrictions?)
 chemical:contained(cartridge style disposal)
 chemical:clean_down('wet' disposal with clean down facility)
 chemical:gel_only (may be other restrictions depending on country?)

 Access
 clients_only  (marina or campsite or leisure facility clients)
 public_free   (council provided facility?)
 public_fee:rates  (see debate in Oz about lack of public
facilities even if they paid for access)
 LOCATION should show if it's private access to boats or other vehicles
 Payment methods or private access also expand the data.



Ok, so if understand, in that proposal a UK canal waterway=elsan_point
might be re-tagged like:

*disposal_point=yes*



*chemical:contained=yeschemical:clean_down=yes*

*chemical:gel_only=no*
*chemical:restrictions=uses a septic field, and only biodegradable tank
chemicals are allowed.*

*access=*public_fee:rates

*boat=yes*
*motorhome=no*


Perhaps next to a:


*water_point=yes*
*access=public_free*

*boat=yes*
*motorhome=no*


Where the boat=yes motorhome=no tag could exist on an enclosing way such as
a Marina.


---

I see the issue as centered on complexity, mapper behavior, and
rendering/searching behavior.
The system depends on two types of access : legal permission and physical
access.  A marine
site may only be accessible to boat, or free and public but only welcome
marine users.  That subtlety will likely
be lost in rendering or gps searching, leading people to an inappropriate
facility.  The reality is that
top level tags are what controls most searching and rendering.

The tags boat=yes and motorhome=no are not universally processed by
rendering.  Thus most
of the time the feature will show up undifferentiated.


*OpenSeaMap* has chosen to use it's own tags in part to avoid motorhome
features showing up
on Mariner's map.  This allows ready and reliable creation of a mariner's
map (or in this case a UK
waterway map).  The cost of a new high level tag seems small compared to
the benefits.  The toilet
stations I map will be with something simpler.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Chain Store Cleanup

[Bryce Nesbitt]

You'll probably face an easier road if your clean page follows the
mechanical edit convention, using your name:
(sample: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Bryce_C_Nesbitt
),
even if you're not doing something fully mechanical.


Then:

   1. Add the TODO plugin to JOSM.
   2. From overpass turbo load name=McDonalds and amenity=fast_food.
   3. Export to JOSM (clicking 'repair' first).
   4. Select a reasonable region, such as your home country.  Invert the
   selection and purge the rest of the nodes to eliminate the non-target
   areas of the earth.
   5. Select only tagged objects (using search) and add to the TODO
   plugin.
   6. Step through the nodes, prior to making any mechanical changes.

I recommend working only in countries where you understand the language and
culture.
name=McDonalds might be correct in places you don't fully understand.



I think http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/POI:McDonald%27s is overkill
however.  And long term chances are
some form of synchronization with McDonald's official store finder will
replace the current manual process.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Chain Store Cleanup

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:

 And long term chances are
 some form of synchronization with McDonald's official store finder will
 replace the current manual process.


 Agree, something like this with a more organized overview would be better


I think eventually chains will see the light, and publish their locations
in an open format compatible manner.
At that point a quick cross check with OSM would clear up most of the
issues.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Removing redundant routing instructions

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I'd call this mostly a routing presentation issue.  If the road name is the
same, I'd want any super sharp curve
to warn me:  Tight left in 100 meters, or  15mph left turn ahead.  The
very fact of the OSM geometry ought to be
enough to calculate the necessary warning.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sidewalks

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Another possibility is somewhat radical:

   - Non-routing or decorative ways for sidepaths.

The current highway tags are quite good for routing a pedestrian or cyclist
from intersection to intersection, and thus
over any reasonable distance.

However there's a desire for what amounts to drawing pretty lines on the
map: modelling the details of the sidewalks and sidepaths.
In suburban areas that often means a winding sidewalk next to a major
road.  In many places the definition is fuzzy, as there are
all variants from fully separated to right up at the curb.

Maybe splitting routing tags (how it connects) from rendering (how it
looks) has merit.
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[OSM-talk] Best way to find nodes within given way outlines?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I've asked around several times, but never found an answer.

What's the best way to do intersection queries on OSM data.?

For example: find all amenity=fuel inside of an airport polygon.

-
This works barely:
1) Load possible target nodes  ways into JOSM
2) Search type:way
3) Use utilspling2 all inside to select nodes inside ways
4) Search for amenity=fuel in selected.

But perhaps there is something more direct that scales better?
I'll post any good answer to help.openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] how do i get a mapper to engage with the community over mass imports?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 3:33 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:

 As I indicated ... it is more a matter of what is wrong with the new
 data. I WOULD expect new building  data to include the address and
 perhaps the fact that this is missing is good enough reason not to allow
 the import. Particularly if the buildings removed did have addresses?


The data I looked at seemed of good quality,
but had a high number of messy tags that can't practically be maintained
in OSM.

I like the primary key tag, but the others are junk, and remind me of some
of
the least helpful aspects of the early Tiger imports.

Had this import come up on the imports list, I would have commented as
above.
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Re: [Talk-GB] Labelling a greasy spoon caff

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Greasy spoon truck stops (or any mobile food truck on a schedule) could
be:

 transient:amenity=restaurant
 cuisine=greasy_spoon;british
 operating_hours=Sa 16:00-20:00
 name=Greasy Spooning Cafe
 website=http://foodtrucksrus.net/o=92

So it won't render confusingly with permanently located features.
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Re: [Talk-us] USA Rail: Amtrak Northeast Regional to Norfolk?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

My experience with Amtrak is they don't always know.
I remember a conductor having a series of phone calls with dispatch about
routing,
and seeing him relay new routes up to the engineer.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:

 https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump
 Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of
 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question!

The tagging numbers are skewed because I tediously edited every odd variant
I could find, mostly outside of Europe.  Those included:

  name=RV Dump (with other tags)
  name=RV Dump Station (with no other tags)
  amenity=dump_station
  amenity=dump-station
  amenity=dumpstation
  amenity=dump
  amenity=RV Dump
  amenity=fuel;dump station;convenience
  highway=service + service=dumpstation
  shop=fuel;dump station;convenience
  shop=fuel;services=dump station;mini-mart;propane
  leisure=caravan_site + note=Motorhome dump station
  recycling=dump-station
  recycling=waste_basket + note=RV Dump Station
  recycling=waste_basket + waste=excrement.
  amenity=waste_disposal + waste=excrement (which variously meant pump-out,
dog_bin, and dump station).
  tourism=caravan_site + note=Dumping place
  tourism=information + description=RV dump
  man_made=wastewater_plant + tag=Motorhome dumping station
  amenity=dump (mostly refers to garbage dumps, but a few were RV holding
tank emptying spots).

The term toilets:disposal was something I coined a few years back for
walk-up toilets.:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets

Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside of
the UK.

--
Apparently some people care a lot what the name of the tag is.
I am not among those people.
I care that the feature has rational tagging, as to attract enough
interested from the osm-carto maintainers to actually render it:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1466

This feature is glaringly missing from campground and canal maps rendered
with OSM data.



Monolithic tagging matching the desire of richardwest would be fine with me:

*amenity=elsan_point*
*amenity=pump-out*
*amenity=rv_dump_station*

*waterway=elsan_point*
*waterway=pump-out*

Plus the same for toilets drinking_water, and fuel (in particular
waterway=fuel).

In that scheme, *waterway=elsan_point* + *amenity=elsan_point* is a
sensible combination.
Access tags are need to cover the case of facilities available only to
overnight guests, since that case is so common.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

To summarize:

Nobody likes to talk about waste, so euphemisms abound.
Past tagging has been all over the map, and the same tags were used in
Europe for dog_waste bins as well as motorhome dump points.


-
The basic styles of holding tank station seem to be:

   - elsan point (walk up dumping basin)(also called a CDP)
   - round drain (gravity drain hose : 3 in diameter in the USA)
   - pump-out (mechanical suction).

Accepting:

   - Gray water (usually)
   - Bilge water (rarely)
   - Black water (usually)
   - Black water but not gray water (occasionally)

Prohibiting:

   - Certain tank chemicals

Offering at the same location:

   - Rinse water which may not be potable.
   - Drinking water (amenity=water_point).
   - Drinking water (amenity=drinking_water).
   - Walk up toilets.

Access Rules:

   - From water or land, or in a few cases both.
   - Free, paid in advance, pay at the pump with coins or cards, or pay at
   the office.
   - Part of regional network or not (card key, payment card).
   - Accessible to overnight guests only, or to everyone.

Position may be:

   - Located on a dock next to waterway=fuel (often)
   - Located on a separate dock.
   - Located on land, even it only serves marine users.
   - Located at each camping pitch.
   - Located at a central location, with varying degrees of accessibility
   by large boats or motorhomes (often).
   - Unknown (many RV and Marina sites list dump services on their
   websites, but the exact location does not appear on the brochure or
   map)(often).
   - Associated with a walk up toilet, or not.

Rendered by:

   - Opensea map, and nothing else prominent.


-
Marine fuel, and amenity=water_point are very similar.


-
A chemical toilet is something completely different in the USA.
Aporta potty is a walk up toilet in the USA.
German facilities sport about a dozen designs of coin pay stations
incorporating a CDP and round drain into one unit, and sometimes a pumpout,
water point, and rinse hose for good measure.



-
So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so a
campground map looks proper
when brought up on a smartphone?
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Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Gmbo;

The people who map waterways disagree, and feel that a single tag for
marine and land facilities is unwise.
I agree: These features are different, and it is not possible to determine
which is which by position alone.
We do not want a person using OSMand to type in dump station and be
directed to a Marine pumpout.

Regardless, the land stations seem ready for tagging.  The scheme is much
more unified than before, even if it
is not as unified as you hoped.

---
There are people already complaining about how many tags the new scheme
takes.  Adding yet more will not help.
Lets keep it simple.
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Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 2:19 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2015-04-22 19:52 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com:

 There are in fact grey water *only* stations.

 Separately, a common tent camping feature is a dish washing station
 designed to keep campers from dumping dishwater on the ground.  That's
 essentially the same feature: a place to dispose relatively clean water (no
 chemicals, no sewage, no bilge residue).


 yes, but would you consider these sanitary_dump_stations?


No, and the text of the proposal excluded them.
amenity=waste_disposal/waste=grey_water would do fine.


-
The basic styles of sanitary station are:

   - elsan point (walk up dumping)
   - round drain (gravity drain hose)
   - pump-out (mechanical suction).

Accepting

   - Gray water (usually)
   - Bilge water (rarely)
   - Black water (usually)
   - Black water but not gray water (occasionally

Prohibiting

   - certain tank chemicals

Access Rules

   - From water or land, or rarely both
   - Free, paid in advance, pay at the pump, or pay at the office.  Part of
   a network or not.
   - Accessible to overnight guests only, or to everyone.
   - Located on a dock next to waterway=fuel (often)

Marine be on the shore: a proximity search to water does distinguish the
intended users.
-


Are there issues with the basic tagging preventing moving forward in
Germany?
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Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2015-04-21 21:20 GMT+02:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com:

amenity=waste_disposal
name=Aire de services camping-car
waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes
waste_disposal:grey_water=yes
 
  To:
amenity=sanitary_dump_station
name=Aire de services camping-car
 


 Why would we remove the tags
 waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes
 waste_disposal:grey_water=yes


It's not about removing tags, rather about simplifying the tagging scheme
so that every tag has a clear meaning, and the greatest chance of getting
tagged correctly around the world.  It's also about reaching the type of
numbers, with a top level tag, that will attract the interest of the
osm-carto maintainers (
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1466 ).

I would certainly welcome and help promote some version of:

*waste_allowed=black_water;tank_chemicals;grey_water;bilge_water;radiator_flushings*


But waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes has already lead to significant
confusion between cassette stations and walk up toilets, and between the
type of connection point and the type of waste.  A chemical_toilet has a
specific connotation in the USA that's not this feature.  And while we're
at it excrement is impolite in USA English and not an alternative.All
the UK tags are unclear because of this exact confusion: it's not possible
to work out what's on the ground without visiting the site again.

All 65 current continental European examples are the simple case and don't
even need additional subtags.




*Note: *To use a dump station I need several things:  *my vehicle needs to
fit, my vehicle needs to be of the allowed type, my connection needs to be
compatible, the waste I have needs to be acceptable, I need to be allowed
(e.g. be an overnight guest), and I might need to pay. * The tagging wants
to get all that done in a manner that's clear over multiple languages.

Keep in mind there are already French, German and Russian translations of
the current scheme: this is a worldwide feature.




 Regarding grey water I am not sure if tagging makes sense. Does grey water
 really need dedicated stations for disposal? In doubt I'd keep the tag.


There are in fact grey water *only* stations.

Separately, a common tent camping feature is a dish washing station
designed to keep campers from dumping dishwater on the ground.  That's
essentially the same feature: a place to dispose relatively clean water (no
chemicals, no sewage, no bilge residue).



 
 --
  Note that:
  1) All presently mapped German stations are tagged as accepting both
  grey_water and sewage, and no site is mapped with chemical restrictions.
 


 but it was mentioned by Gmbo that not all sites that exist do accept
 chemical toilet waste.


Yes, that's something I pointed out to Gmbo early on.

The Gmbo scheme assumes the choice is binary: either chemical additives are
allowed or not, and that the restriction may not even be visible at the
site.
The reality is more complex.  Some sites operate off a septic field and
allow some chemicals and not others.  I see this as far beyond the scope of
OSM to try and tag.  Thus some form of:

*sanitary_dump_station:chemical_restrictions=inquire_locally*


Is proposed.  To assume people will tag chemicals_allowed=yes on the tens
of thousands of normal facilities is unrealistic,
just like asking people to tag unremarkable trees with denotation=cluster
was unrealistic.

Tag the exception, not the rule.




  2) German mapper Gmbo has designed a tagging scheme for describing
 stations
  in more detail: receptor type, height of the drain, chemical
 restrictions,
  grey water only facilities.  Those tags can be added to the above, by a
  mapper who knows the local area and station types.  No information will
 be
  lost.
 +1



 3) There is separate tagging for marine facilities for boats, as it is
  improper to direct a motorhome driver to use a marine-only facility.
 

 sounds reasonable

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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net
wrote:

 Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
  What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more
  of:
 
   1) Walk up toilet
   2) Cassette dump for boats
   3) Cassette dump for motorhomes
   4) Pump out

 Very firmly and unambiguously 2.

  I propose making the assumption the present elsan_point tag means* #3*,

 Could I make the evidently-not-bleeding-obvious-enough observation that the
 waterway= bit is quite a good hint that it's not meant for motorhomes.


Yes, I think waterway is an excellent hint.  Thus:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waterway%3Dsanitary_dump_station

*waterway=elsan_point *would become *waterway=sanitary_dump_station*,
nothing more.
Motorhomes need not apply.

---

Note this sanitary_dump_station scheme replaced over a dozen other tagging
styles worldwide.  It was a real mess: fragmented and tagged for the
rendering such as to be absolutely unprocessable in any rational way.
There were advocates for using UK term Elsan for the cleanup.
Others objected to the use of a trade name.  Thus *sanitary_dump_station*
as an attempt at a generic term with a good chance of understanding when
translated into multiple languages, and a good match to the customary terms
used locally. The scheme's wiki page is now in French, German, English and
Russian.

Elsan point is not a term with recognition outside the UK.
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Re: [Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Regarding grey water I am not sure if tagging makes sense. Does grey water
 really need dedicated stations for disposal? In doubt I'd keep the tag.


Here's a case where grey water is prohibited:
http://www.longbeach.gov/park/marine/alamitos_bay.asp
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Here are some totally typical prior taggings of this feature (in land
vehicle form):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3075600244
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/369645049
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

  Is there any intrinsic difference between one for boats and one for
 motorhomes? If they are actually pretty much the same thing, maybe the
 difference would better be expressed by *access=customers* or purely
 *geometric*/geographic properties

Yes, there are intrinsic differences for marine and land facilities.

And *access=customers* has a specific different definition here, as it is
common for a pump-out or dump station to
be restricted only to paying overnight guests at the facility (e.g. you
can't even pay to use it unless you're staying overnight).

Purely *geometric* properties don't work, as fuel station tagging shows.
Proximity to the water's edge or a marina polygon does not itself
disambiguate the feature type.



The new tagging style covers a lot of bases: maybe not all, but many more
than any of the dozen or so informal methods.
The terms were also chosen carefully for worldwide use.  Chemical Dump
Point or CDP was found in the UK, and
Dump station is well recognized in the USA Australia and NZ.  Sanitary is
a pretty icky word, but not nearly as rude as
excrement, for the USA.  Elsan was objected to as a brand name not a
generic type.  Of the 200 or so stations I found in
searching note, description, and recycling tags, most used some form of the
word dump for land station and pump for marine
pumpouts.  A small group of nodes are tagged Elsan along British canals.
The term human effluent did not come up in that discussion, but would
also be suitable (though effluent is likely never taught in the public
schools in the USA)

The choice of the exact wording of the tag is not as important as seeking
common tagging for a common feature.
Where would we be if every country used it's own word for highway.

Marine and land facilities are different, but there's no on the ground
difference between a comfort station and a toilet.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Malcolm Herring 
malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote:

 On 21/04/2015 18:08, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

 Are what's presently tagged elsan_point /both/ walk up toilets
 /and/ CDP chemical holding tank emptying points?
 And do they welcome waste originating from Elsan-based motorhomes as
 well as canal boats?

 This is going to vary from point to point. On-the-ground surveys will be
 required.


What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of:

  1) Walk up toilet
  2) Cassette dump for boats
  3) Cassette dump for motorhomes
  4) Pump out

I propose making the assumption the present elsan_point tag means* #3*,
then let local mappers adjust the tags as needed.
The tag scheme can handle all the above:

  1) Walk up toilet  (amenity=toilet)
  2) Cassette dump for boats   (waterway=sanitary_dump_station)
  3) Cassette dump for motorhomes  (amenity=sanitary_dump_station)
  4) Pump out
(sanitary_dump_station:pump-out=yes)
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[Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

User richardwest and a few others added a few Elsan Points along Canals in
the UK:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2591597652/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2755755468/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2891630633/

I've checked with Richard about this, to make sure the current tagging can
cover
the use case.  It can.  I'm seeking additional local input on this
tagging.  Similar
facilities outside the UK have been retagged to the sanitary_dump_station
scheme.
Any UK edit will be node-by-node, not mechanical.

No Canal  River Trust google map will be copied, though it's a shame the
CRT
data is not available to OpenStreetMap.

My goal with the edits are, over time, to prepare this feature for
acceptance in rendering.
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[Talk-de] Updating motorhome dump station tagging (English)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Apologies for using English on the German list.

I would like to seek additional voices on moving German motorhome sewage
tagging from:

  amenity=waste_disposal
  name=Aire de services camping-car
  waste_disposal:chemical_toilet=yes
  waste_disposal:grey_water=yes

To:
  amenity=sanitary_dump_station
  name=Aire de services camping-car

--
Note that:
1) All presently mapped German stations are tagged as accepting both
grey_water and sewage, and no site is mapped with chemical restrictions.

2) German mapper Gmbo has designed a tagging scheme for describing stations
in more detail: receptor type, height of the drain, chemical restrictions,
grey water only facilities.  Those tags can be added to the above, by a
mapper who knows the local area and station types.  No information will be
lost.

3) There is separate tagging for marine facilities for boats, as it is
improper to direct a motorhome driver to use a marine-only facility.

4) The waste_disposal:chemical_toilet tagging appears only in Europe: the
USA/Mexico/Canada and Australia/New Zealand use
the amenity=sanitary_dump_station style now.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Malcolm Herring 
malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote:

 On 21/04/2015 08:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

 I'm seeking additional local input on this tagging.


 Elsan is simply a trade name for a chemical toilet (likewise Portapotti).
 So your cassette tagging covers these use cases.


In the UK is the Elsan trade name used for both the mobile toilet and the
fixed spot to empty it?
It appears the intent of the elsan_point tag in the UK was the later (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tELRMqFZKM ).

---
Note the comparable USA term porta-potty refers to a portable chemical
toilet with no separate cassette (usually dragged by trailer to events,
construction
activity, or in camping areas without sewer access).


On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Paul Sladen o...@paul.sladen.org wrote:
 Most canal-side/marina-side are accessed-protected using a 'BWB' key;

There also seems to be a card:
https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/navigating-the-waterways/services-for-boats/how-to-buy-your-pump-out-card

I'm not sure which OSM mapped elsan_points are part of the CRT key system,
but the network tag was designed for use by someone who does.
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Re: [talk-au] National Park unclosed poly, want advice

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Forest polygons are generally understood to not be very precise.  And the
treeline changes over time anyway.
Do don't bother to make those align.

I do like to see edges of water and lakes matching up with the park
poloygons, otherwise
you end up with lots of strange color bands on rendered maps that seem to,
but don't actually,
have semantic meaning.   Some people share nodes to make the match
perfect.  Others find that annoying to edit.

To share nodes in JOSM click on two nodes and select join.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points

[Bryce Nesbitt]

 Malcome Herring wrote:

Waterside facilities provided by CRT (previously known as British
 Waterways Board - BWB) are accessed by use of a key issued to all waterway
 license holders. Chemical toilet emptying points are usually within these
 facilities. Pump-out stations, on the other hand, are necessarily outside 
 usage is controlled by pre-paid charge cards which activate the pump.


Are what's presently tagged elsan_point *both* walk up toilets *and* CDP
chemical holding tank emptying points?
And do they welcome waste originating from Elsan-based motorhomes as well
as canal boats?


In tagging form does this represent a typical station?

 amenity=toilets
 network=CRT
 access=key
 toilets:disposal={flush/chemical/pitlatrine}
+
 waterway=sanitary_dump_station
 sanitary_dump_station:basin=yes
 network=CRT
 access=key

Also note that based on feedback from a German tagger, the cassette tag
name changed to basin.



Marine pumpouts of course are separate:

 waterway=sanitary_dump_station
 payment:crt_prepaid:yes
 payment:cash=no
 sanitary_dump_station:pump-out=yes
 sanitary_dump_station:rinse_water=yes
 seamark:small_craft_facility:category = water;pump-out
 note=Self service prohibited, see Marina attendant


Note that *porta-potty *is also a trade name, which has also become a
generic like Hoover, Xerox and Crescent Wrench.  In the USA it refers only
to the walk up toilets.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Imports] Proposed import removal: nuclear explosion sites

[Bryce Nesbitt]

There's an insane disconnect between this discussion about keeping nuclear
explosion events, and the one about removing railways.
The argument seems to come down to what was left over and if it's
mappable.  Well, the two are very similar:

* Nuclear explosions leave craters and radioactive isotopes.
* Railways leave ballast, embankments, and lead arsenate herbicides (the
later a huge problem when reusing them).

And you could could farther:
* Old playgrounds leave sand when covered by new buildings.
* Old forests leave roots in the ground that could be detected by
specialized equipment, even when paved over into parking lots.



In all cases the argument that some barely-detectable trace archaeological
remnant remains seems to be thin justification for a pre-held like of the
feature.
I think a better debate is is the context needed for other mapping and
is the data better kept maintained and displayed if kept elsewhere?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed Semi Mechanical Edit : recycling:excrement

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On that node I got tripped up because vending=excrement_bags seems to
be used with and without amenity=vending_machine
I followed tagging of nearby nodes in josm, but missed reading the wiki
convention. Sorry.

The overpass query to find other similar tags is:
[vending=excrement_bags][amenity!~.] ({{bbox}});

vending_machine though still seems a strange tag, as the dog waste
dispensers are very often free, and vending is described as involving money
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvending_machine




This is another tag that, in part because there is no guidance from
*osm-carto* rendering, is poorly standardized:

  83  amenity  dog_waste_bin   26  waste_basket  dog_waste   25  amenity
dog_waste_station   23  amenity  dog_waste   11  amenity  dog_waste_basket
11  waste  dog_waste   8  amenity_1  dog_waste_bin   4  name  Dog waste
station   3  type  dog_waste   2  amenity  dog_waste_bag_dispencer   2
description  Dog waste bin   2  name  Dog waste bin   1  ref  Dog Waste Bin
1  amenity  Dog waste bag dispenser   1  amenity  dog waste bin   1
amenity  dog_waste_bags   1  type  dog waste   1  name  Dog Waste Bags
  7 866  vending  excrement_bags   154  waste  dog_excrement   81  waste
excrement   21  type  excrement_bags   6  name  excrement bags   6  name
excrement_bags   6  waste  trash;dog_excrement   2  amenity  dog_excrement
2  type  dog_excrement_bags   2  waste  excrement;grey_water   1  type
dog_excrement   1  description  Dog excrement hot spot   1  note
Integriert: amenity=waste_basket + waste=dog_excrement   1  note
Integriert: . basiert auf ungenauer gps-Messung   1  waste_basket
excrement_bags   1  waste  dog_excrement;litter   1  product  excrement_bag
  9  source  captainslash.com/nan-two-go-sliding-in-the-wet-red-shit/   2
type  dog_shit   1  amenity  dog_shit_box
  8 293  waste_basket   1 037  waste_basket:excrement_bags   6
waste_basket:type:nl   1  basket:excrement_bags  9
 dogshit
  note
 dog poop
  55
 recycling:excrement  99
 disused:recycling:excrement
  1 037  waste_basket:excrement_bags   34  excrement_bags   9  bags   1
Bagshaw   1  basket:excrement_bags
Rather than hoping mappers come by to fix them one at a time, this seems
like a good candidate for a mechanical edit.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Imports] Proposed import removal: nuclear explosion sites

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

  Am 17.04.2015 um 19:33 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com:
  In all cases the argument that some barely-detectable trace
 archaeological remnant remains seems to be thin justification for a
 pre-held like of the feature.

 The only problem with this comparison is that craters with hundreds of
 meters of diameter don't typically fall into the barely-detectable
 category.


Nobody has, at any stage, objected to mapping craters



Craters and shorter mountains are fine: they represent visible features in
today's world.
Missing atols however are arguable, as are the historic events that seem
better suited to a database of georeferenced historic events.
Creating such a database would open up tremendous opportunity to map other
events, like Woodstock (the concert), or
other famous event sites that don't have plaques or memorials.
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Re: [Talk-us] perceptions of OHM and other similar projects

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 The problem, as I see it, is that railroads are a contiguous
 whole. Yet some people seem to think that a railroad should be shopped
 up along its length, with part of it appearing in OSM (where you can
 see it on the ground), and part of it appearing in OHM (where it has
 been bulldozed away)

 Relations are completely broken.

+10 on all this.

It seems the deletion argument is related to clutter.  I prefer to
see the entire railroad
in context.



 Michael DuPont wrote
I still dont understand why we dont support multiple layers. It would seem to 
be the most logical thing to do and the api could support that so simple 
clients could download a different layers each time.

There are editor solutions to this, short of layers.

Nothing says an editor can't hide all boundary relations or abandoned
railways, in order to ease editing.
The razed sections of the abandoned railway need not confuse anybody.

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