Re: [OSM-talk] An import in New Zealand, assistance requested

[Robin Paulson]

On 2 September 2017 at 05:07, Éric Gillet  wrote:
>> Well it seems as if exactly -that- wasn't happening which is why this
>> thread was started in the first place. Seems however that the brakes have
>> been put on now, see

the brakes have not been put on; every day, hundreds/thousands more
buildings are added. one mapper listened to what i said and stopped,
but still no change. no mention anywhere of the new data set, or any
published information on how to merge, etc.

> I do not see any reference to such problem in OP.
>
> If the original plan didn't include building, that's fine by me to stop
> because importing building is wholly different from roads.

correct. original plan was roads, plus some other data detailed in the
linz2osm tool. buildings is "only" one more set of data, but it is
*huge*.

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Re: [OSM-talk] An import in New Zealand, assistance requested

[Robin Paulson]

On 1 September 2017 at 02:55, Simon Poole  wrote:
> Sorry for responding to this late.
>
> Just because a specific source has been legally "OK"ed doesn't imply
> that an import of all the data from a specific source is warranted and
> should continue on for all times. The import guidelines are silent on
> this, but I would suggest that revisiting and reviewing such undertaking
> now and then would really make sense.
>
> Not only because we've learnt lots of things in the many, I believe 9,
> years since the LINZ import started, but further because in those 9
> years the community has likely completely changed, a quick check
> indicated that 20 times more people have mapped in NZ than when the
> import started. As the complaint at hand nicely illustrates, maybe going
> back and checking what the community thinks is appropriate now would be
> a good idea, instead of trudging along on a course set by 100 people
> many years back.

yep, i was one of those 100 people (actually, there were originally 3 of us...)

the process was poor, little involvement of others or request for
comment. granted, this number has expended since, but only at a "how
do we" not at a "should we" level.

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Re: [OSM-talk] An import in New Zealand, assistance requested

[Robin Paulson]

On 17 August 2017 at 01:29, Richard  wrote:
> soneone else has to answer that but I was under the impression that
> the LINZ has been looked at in detail. It seems to be an import effort
> that is underway since many years.

yes, but they keep adding more and more detail to the "LINZ" pile.
LINZ is an intermediary (although they also produce data, to make
things more complicated), they host data for several councils, central
government and other orgs in NZ. to claim that because some data
(roads) has been cleared, does not mean that all subsequent data
downloaded from LINZ is also cleared.

> Otoh my questions about LINZ imports were answered adequately. I would
> guess it is a country with a low number of mappers per square kilometer
> as you call it. Sometimes it happens they import the waterfalls long
> before the waterways belonging to them..

AKL is dense enough that there are hundreds of mappers (maybe not all active...)

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Re: [OSM-talk] An import in New Zealand, assistance requested

[Robin Paulson]

On 16 August 2017 at 06:31, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:
> I see that these buildings have got one author who has on his statistics
> page about 6 thousand edits. How do you know that these buildings were
> actually imported and not drawn manually in an editor? Was there a clear
> acknowledgement about importing of these building? I have got about 9
> thousand edits on mine and I did not do a single import.

it's an import, the data is from auckland council. yes, there are some
members who are drawing by hand (including me). more than one of the
importers has talked to me about this.

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[OSM-talk] An import in New Zealand, assistance requested

[Robin Paulson]

Before I ask for assistance, please note this: I've already brought
this up on osm-imports and got nowhere useful.

There are a number of users in NZ doing mass imports of building data
in Auckland (I estimate 500,000 buildings), while wilfully ignoring
community guidelines.

I have asked numerous times for those doing the imports to stop and
follow the notes on the imports page. There is no wiki page, no
discussion on osm-imports, only vague references to a tool called
linz2osm and responses of "Oh, I thought everything had been OK'd
already, we discussed it on a local (google groups) mailing list".
Sometimes they stop for a while and then restart some time later,
maybe hoping no-one will notice. I hear there are other imports too,
one of the importers offhand mentioned a mass import of waterways,
also with no wiki page, discussion or outside involvement.

I bring it up here, because nobody subscribed to osm-imports appears
willing to back up these requests, to say to the importers that they
should follow the guidelines. A number of the importers are subscribed
to the osm-imports and osm-talk lists, but are strangely quiet when I
mention this request to stop and do things with community involvement.

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[OSM-talk] leaky coastline, auckland?

[Robin Paulson]

hi all,
i've had a coastline problem for a few weeks now, i can't figure out 
what it is, perhaps someone here can help.


when i view osm data in osmand, i get a lot of leaks around the 
waitemata harbour in auckland, new zealand: land rendering as sea/sea 
rendering as land. the data is up-to-date, i am currently using osmand's 
new "live" service.


apparently contradictory to that, geofabrik's coastline checker says 
everything is fine, and the osm mapnik render on osm.org also works 
fine. any suggestions what might be going wrong, or other checkers i 
might use?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Not sure what to think

[Robin Paulson]

On 2016-01-08 06:46, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

You could even see it the other way round: any website is a kind of
database (structured information). Has google a right to copy this, or
index it (i.e. create a derivative database)?


maybe, maybe not. they could argue that most web sites want to be found 
and search is the most common way, so it's an assumption they make which 
they would claim is reasonable.


isn't there a "right to be forgotten" directive in eu now, which allows 
a person/institution to be removed from searches in the eu? so, opt out, 
not opt in.


also, they have bigger and better lawyers than everyone else, which is 
probably the most important thing when deciding who is right and wrong.


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Re: [OSM-talk] how do i get a mapper to engage with the community over mass imports?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2015-04-24 17:37, Clifford Snow wrote:

Is this work part of what is described on the wiki [1] for importing


no, this isn't linz data, it's a new set from auckland council. the page 
below hasn't been touched in 3 years.



Linz data? Have you discussed this on the New Zealand mailing list?


i brought it up, he's a member there. it's a poor choice using google 
groups for discussing osm, so i'm not a member and don't intend to be.



Have you attempted to contact him. If he doesn't respond then I would
contact the DWG for assistance.


yes, it appears he's stopped as of a few hours ago, perhaps because i 
pointed out i was posting here. we'll see what happens


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[OSM-talk] how do i get a mapper to engage with the community over mass imports?

[Robin Paulson]

hi,
i live in auckland, nz. a mapper [1] here is currently importing a giant 
data set of building outlines for auckland, by my estimate 300,000+ 
ways. until yesterday, on my insistence, he'd made no mention of this on 
any of the relevant discussion lists (local nz chapter, osm imports 
list) and as of one hour ago [2] was uploading more data.


from what i can see (although i may be wrong, please point out any 
errors if so), there's no engagement with the community, local or 
otherwise, and apparent disregard for established processes around 
importing as set out on the wiki:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import

it bothers me more that he's an openly acknowledged employee of a local 
company, koordinates, who engage him amongst other things to add data to 
osm - it looks like more than just a single bull-headed individualistic 
person, but an active policy of the company.


what to do?

[1] 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/StephenDavis/history#map=10/-37.0309/174.9339

[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30444326

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[OSM-legal-talk] missing attribution for use of OSM data

[Robin Paulson]

hi folks,
auckland, new zealand has a council-controlled website which is used for 
route planning on public transport. having done a lot of editing on osm 
over the years, i know the osm data pretty well, and can spot its use 
quite easily [1]. from what i can see, the transport routing site 
doesn't mention osm anywhere, or give correct attribution.


one of my friends has put in a freedom of information request to the 
council, to confirm it is osm data and to get formal confirmation for 
who the contractors are - we know this already though, from examining 
the website, it's smartrak.co.nz


as an aside, it appears their own website may also have unattributed osm 
data, depicting central auckland:

http://www.smartrak.co.nz/Info/images/home-map-v2.jpg

we are confident the data is from osm. assuming it is, what are the best 
steps to take?


this is the site:
https://at.govt.nz/bus-train-ferry/journey-planner/

[1] the inconsistent tracing of buildings, hedges, fences and driveways 
were a big giveaway, but there are many others, such as geometry and 
naming mistakes, odd road geometry i've drawn in and new features which 
have only been built in the last two weeks


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[OSM-talk] a license violation in the new zealand herald?

[Robin Paulson]

i'm  not one hundred percent, but this looks a lot like a static image 
taken of osm. the area is the cook strait, between the two biggest 
islands of new zealand. the only attribution on the image is to 
Geonet, which I presume is some organisation which studies earthquakes 
(for those not in the know, new zealand has had a few small shakes in 
the last week or so).


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1objectid=10904806

as it's a tiny amount, for news purposes, is there any exemption from 
showing the source?


suggestions requested.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Native American/First Nation, etc. Reservation Boundaries

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-04-20 09:49, Clifford Snow wrote:

I think I understand that the existing administrative levels dont
work. In the US at least, the reservations have a  domestic
dependent nation status.  They are not States, Counties yet contain
cities. The often extend past state boundaries, and certainly county
boundaries.


perhaps we might look at australia? there are similar situations in 
that country for aboriginal land, with some level of autonomy within 
certain areas. i believe some reserves cross over state and county 
boundaries also


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Re: [OSM-talk] Imagery Boundary?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-04-01 04:57, Clay Smalley wrote:
This seems silly and useless. The imagery is subject to change and 
the

way will become obsolete. I dont see a point in mapping this, and Im


all data in the database is subject to change and will become obsolete, 
there is nothing unusual in that happening here


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Re: [OSM-talk] Branding?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-23 09:05, Simon Poole wrote:

A trademark and other IP use policy is one of the things the new OSMF


How do we reconcile relatively permissive use of the OSM database, with 
relatively restrictive use of the Open Street Map name? For the moment, 
I put to one side Stallman's argument that there is no such thing as 
intellectual property [1].


It is contradictory to say one part of Open Street Map's intellectual 
property (the database) can be freely used, inspected, redistributed and 
modified, while another part (the name) cannot.


Why is one shared, given away, while the other is guarded, coveted, 
owned, protected, monopolised?


Of the four strands of intellectual property, three are willingly 
shared by and amongst digital commons projects: copyrightable material, 
databases and patents. The latter is an odd case in that publishing it 
means it can't be monopolised, but the end result is the same: neither 
of these three is owned and locked away from the rest of the world.


The other strand, trademarks, is locked away by the various relevant 
projects. Any suggestions why? Or why we should continue to do this?


[1] http://www.gnu.org/doc/fsfs-ii-2.pdf

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[OSM-talk] mapping bridges - some ideas

[Robin Paulson]

i've been thinking about this for a while and it's bugging me, so i'd 
like to hear what the rest of you think.


the way we map bridges at the moment is by adding tags to the 
road/railway/footpath/etc., something like this:

bridge = yes
layer = 1

which seems a bit clumsy, and doesn't reflect very well what's 
happening.
the problem shows itself best when there is one bridge with several 
ways on it, for example this near where i live:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.850112lon=174.793894zoom=18layers=M

and this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.830896lon=174.745834zoom=18layers=M

all of these roads/railways go over a single bridge, but from the 
mapping each appears to have its own separate bridge, that is one bridge 
per way. i'm sure there are many other examples


what i would like to hear feedback on is this:
perhaps we change the way we map this, and instead map the bridge and 
the way as entirely separate entities. so, the bridge could be 
represented with a rectangle, tagged as follows:


man_made = bridge
layer = 1
name = Auckland Harbour Bridge

the ends of the rectangle would be traced over the ends of the bridge 
structure. then the ways go over, but they no longer have bridge tags or 
layer tags applied to them, as they are applied to the bridge instead. 
it would also allow tagging of the bridge without interfering with 
tagging of the road which goes over it.


the second place this will benefit us is the situation where there are 
bridges with nothing on them. i'm thinking abandoned rail bridges in the 
ex-industrial cities of uk, where the rails have been ripped up, leaving 
nothing to apply the bridge tags too, but there are more than likely 
other examples.


we could maybe apply a similar logic to cuttings, tunnels and similar 
features


so,
comments, suggestions, revisions, problems, etc. please?

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD editor making copyright violation easy

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-07 11:08, Robin Paulson wrote:

On 2013-02-07 09:32, Stephan Knauss wrote:

Hi,

the new iD editor allows to supply a custom imagery layer.


is the new editor live? i understood it was only in use on a dev
instance at the moment?


sorry, ignore the noise, i found the answer.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-05 19:36, Bryce Cogswell wrote:

Indeed. I suppose if one joins a project on the assumption that there
is no direction and no goals, at least you'll never be disappointed 
in

how it turns out.


that's not what i said at all, or what i was implying. and your point 
is a straw man argument: build up a false premise (that i am against 
goals or direction), then knock it down and show how bad my argument 
was.


the point i'm getting at is why do i (or anyone else) need to rely on 
some other group to set the direction or goals. it's not goals per se 
that's a problem, it's who sets them. the way this is going, several 
people have suggested a small group should set policy, goals, direction, 
whatever, for the other 30,000 who map, with no mandate whatsoever.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-05 20:15, Clifford Snow wrote:
Yet Google gets the press that thanks to them, North Korea has now 
been mapped. In an ideal world, the local
community should be the lead communicator. But having a PR staff for 
OSM is just smart. Good press is going to
help us raise money for new servers and other infrastructure we'll 
need. Lacking a local mapping community a
PR staff could be the catalyst for the creation of new mapping 
communities.


when i hear PR, i think edward bernays [1], freudian psyhocanalysis, 
anti-democratic impulses and mass manipulation. the century of the self 
[2] by adam curtis shows why, it talks extensively about PR and bernays 
in particular.


of bernays: He felt this manipulation was necessary in society, which 
he regarded as irrational and dangerous as a result of the 'herd 
instinct' that [Wilfred] Trotter had described [1]


perhaps we could stay away from that model of behaviour?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
[2] http://archive.org/details/AdamCurtis-TheCenturyOfTheSelf
free to download, and legal too.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-04 07:02, Michal Migurski wrote:
which concerns me no end. what position of authority does simon 
hold? over whom?


Simon is the elected chairman of the OSMF board, and can speak on its
behalf. He holds a position of authority over the Geocode Inc. issue
because apparently the foundation received a CD.


what significance does the osmf board hold? they speak for 
themselves, not anyone else.


That's exactly the question at hand in this particular argument.

We seem to have an OSMF that's not effective at communicating, and
large parts of the community don't see the value they offer. Your
takeaway is that the board is not representative of the project and
should not exist at all. My feeling is that a project needs a


no, my takeaway is that any time a small group attempts to represent a 
larger group, necessarily there will be problems, therefore we should 
not have a small group such as the board attempting to represent 30,000 
individuals who map



political structure to survive. In either case, Geocode Inc. believes


when you say the project, you imply the people who contribute can be 
fashioned into a unity. i am fundamentally against that, it is flawed 
thinking. we are a multitude [1], not a singular, and thus we cannot be 
represented by anything less than ourselves.



that the OSMF are the right people to receive a CD.

Ultimately, someone needs to own the domain name and the API and the
servers it runs on. That's who the Geocodes of the world are going to


well, if we assume that certain resources are best centralised, and 
thus controlled by a single entity. i don't, again that is flawed as it 
gives power and control to a few. if we move away from that, and there 
is no representation, no centralisation, who do geocde send the notice 
to, all 30,000 who map?



target. It would be best if that someone was answerable to the larger
community through a democratic process of some sort, so in my view 
the

OSMF is a requirement.

I'm not frustrated that we *have* a board, I'm frustrated that the
board we've got doesn't seem effective at communicating its purpose 
or

much of anything else. They're bad at politics. If they were good at
politics, you wouldn't be disagreeing with the idea of a board 
because

you'd be thankful for the provision of a quality API and the decisive
resolution of legal threats from trademark trolls.


yes i would still be disagreeing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitude

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-05 06:56, Simon Poole wrote:
participated it has always struck me how little alignment of goals 
there
is in  the community as a whole (I'm not saying it is surprising, 
just

that is so). Outside the very generic mission that OSM  creates and
distributes free geographic data for the world it is difficult to 
find
common ground. So not only to we tend to disagree on how to get to 
our
goal (the strategy) there are a number of different views on what 
those

goals actually are (outside of hand wavy very generic statements).

The exercise towards the end of the SWG to define core values for the
project could be seen as an attempt to document some aspects of what
common ground there is, however it never matured (IMHO) to a level 
that
the result could be published as a formal document and currently 
molders

well hidden on the foundation web site at
ttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Core_Values

I'm fairly sure that prior to any strategic exercise we need to take 
a
step back and have a look at what this project wants to achieve in 
the end.


who is we? and why do you or anyone else get to declare what we 
need to do? isn't that a personal decision? you're right, those who map 
do have different aims, methods, approaches, understandings, etc. why 
does that need to change? and how are you or anyone else going to form 
those 30,000 into one? through what authority, through what power?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-04 07:35, Jeff Meyer wrote:

To answer your first question, I do. Others have voiced the same


you're making a decision not to have a decision any more (leading 
implies someone making decisions on your behalf)? that's rather 
contradictory



opinion - theyd like to see some organization, to know that their
efforts are being applied for the most benefit. Your voice is noted,
but there should be room for disagreement, no? 


not if it affects me, or anyone else who doesn't want to be affected, 
no. there is the faint whiff of top-down organisation happening here, 
which is very concerning. i didn't take part in osm in order for someone 
to organise me.



One of the goals of a strategic exercise would be to test your thesis
whether OSMs (and the OSMFs) damn good job so far, is damn good
enough to continue to survive and thrive. The thesis that an
organizing board reduces a community of thousands to the views of a
handful seems contrary to what has gone on with many other successful
OS projects.


considering the problems with representative democracy in the last 300 
years, and how the representatives are rarely representative of the 
many, i'm not sure this is possible:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/nov/23/congress-us-politics

i recall that 80+% of british MPs are millionaires, while ~0.1% of 
their constituents are. out of touch?


if someone is not being represented, then by definition we won't hear 
from them, so we won't know if there are any problems, such as poor 
representation. so whether the other successful OS projects are 
representing everyone or not is difficult to judge




On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:57 AM, Robin Paulson ro...@bumblepuppy.org
[4] wrote:


On 2013-02-03 07:41, Jeff Meyer wrote:


was: geocoding trademark thread

I think Paweł has hit on a key question: does the OSMF have
plans to
operate and lead OSM in a more efficient, organized manner or
not?


what makes you think anyone wants to be lead, i certainly dont? or
wants to be organised from above? were all fully functional human
beings, perfectly capable of organising ourselves, and doing a damn
good job so far - look at where OSM and most other digital commons
projects have got through self-organising.

i disagree with any idea of a board, i think its utterly wrong, it
reduces a community of thousands to the views a handful of people
can put across.



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Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-03 13:29, Tom Taylor wrote:

I'm interested in OSM. I do mapping. I subscribed to Talk after a few
weeks on Newbies, but all these political outcries strongly tempt me
to unsubscribe. They don't contribute to the mapping that is
presumably our primary interest.


maps are inherently political. to suggest they are not, and are mere 
reflections of some sort of objective reality is wrong. if you're 
involved in maps, there will be politics. whether you realise it or not 
and whether the ideology they display is visible or not, are other 
matters.


they set out notions of what is important in a society, reify abstract 
boundaries and thus nations-states.


i read this recently, it had some major flaws, but made a good argument 
as to the political nature of maps:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1921340

also:
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=DSFHnonqr7kCdq=map+politicalhl=ensa=Xei=pSQOUbCAIuzwmAXb-oCwBAredir_esc=y
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=WhyPBHJV5VYCprintsec=frontcoverdq=map+politicalhl=ensa=Xei=pSQOUbCAIuzwmAXb-oCwBAredir_esc=y

i'm sure there are plenty of other journals and books that say similar.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-03 07:41, Jeff Meyer wrote:

was: geocoding trademark thread

I think Paweł has hit on a key question: does the OSMF have plans to
operate and lead OSM in a more efficient, organized manner or not?


what makes you think anyone wants to be lead, i certainly don't? or 
wants to be organised from above? we're all fully functional human 
beings, perfectly capable of organising ourselves, and doing a damn good 
job so far - look at where OSM and most other digital commons projects 
have got through self-organising.


i disagree with any idea of a board, i think it's utterly wrong, it 
reduces a community of thousands to the views a handful of people can 
put across.


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Re: [OSM-talk] STFU

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-03 10:23, Chris Hill wrote:

Maybe a few of you braver than the brave, loud-mouthed, armchair
lawyers should just STFU and give the board a break.


this is an ad hominem [1] and thus an irrelevancy, it aims to discredit 
the people, while ignoring what's being said. can you stick to the 
issue, we're not here to debate personality types?



When some of you have had as much abuse and hassle in an unpaid job
they volunteered for, in their spare time, maybe then you would
understand how hard it is to please all of the people all of the 
time.

Impossible is the answer.


you're right, that being the case, how can they claim to represent 
thousands of individuals who take part in OSM? they have no mandate 
whatsoever. some of us entirely reject the idea of any form of 
representation as it is inherently corrupt, no matter how hard the 
representatives try, or how virtuous they are.



*IF* mistakes have been made, then they are honest mistakes made by
volunteers who stepped up to the mark to try to make OSM better.

*IF* mistakes have been made, AFAIK no real harm has been done. The
worst damage so far is to the pompous, over-sensitive We Must Know
Everything brigade who feel offended because they have not been


that's an ad hominem again. can we stick to the point? labelling people 
as pompous is not helpful, it's divisive. i'm not sure what it has to do 
with collecting geodata



informed of every breath drawn. To them I say: Grow Up. An Open


and an ad hominem again. this time with more orders to behave as you 
demand.



community doesn't mean getting an email, text, tweet and personal
letter every time something happens. That's why we have a board - to


firstly, this is a gross exaggeration, no-one asked for that in this 
whole thread.


and secondly, we? who is this we? they don't represent me or most 
others who map, they represent whoever voted for them. how many is that? 
where was the option for i don't want a board, we don't need 
representing?



To the board I say, do your best guys and thank you very much for
what you do and how you do it. Don't be tempted to pick up the toys
thrown out of prams by a small group of people. That mistake was made


more personal abuse and insults. why? what are you so angry at? do you 
have to direct it here?



during licence-change and it just caused more upset. You were elected
for a term (at least) to do your best, so do it and good luck.

Threats to leave the project remind me of the bullshit thrown around
during licence-change when hardly anyone actually had the balls to
follow through. If people are so unhappy then go, but do so quickly
and quietly and leave the people really interested in OSM to continue
making the very best map database we can.


chris, i don't know where this email comes from, or why it's here, but 
it's inflammatory, totally inappropriate and unlikely to achieve 
anything positive. if there's a rational argument in there, can you make 
it?


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

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Re: [OSM-talk] Paweł's q: what can be done?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-02-03 12:14, Michal Migurski wrote:

Communication is hard, and there are ways to do it that make people
feel like they're getting a complete story instead of a confused
glimpse through an accidentally-open door. Simon's mail left out a 
lot
of important things, most notably that he's a member of the OSMF 
Board

and that it was an official statement.


Michal, what do you mean by official?

from wikipedia, i see:
An official is someone who holds an office (function or mandate, 
regardless whether it carries an actual working space with it) in an 
organization or government and participates in the exercise of authority 
(either his own or that of his superior and/or employer, public or 
legally private).


which concerns me no end. what position of authority does simon hold? 
over whom?


what significance does the osmf board hold? they speak for themselves, 
not anyone else.


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[OSM-talk] a license violation?

[Robin Paulson]

i was looking for unusual uses of osm data, and found this:

http://store.axismaps.com/product/boston-blue

osm is mentioned on the web site, but not on the poster itself.

suggestions, comments, etc. requested please.

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Re: [OSM-talk] a license violation?

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-01-02 23:46, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2013/1/2 Robin Paulson ro...@bumblepuppy.org:

i was looking for unusual uses of osm data, and found this:

http://store.axismaps.com/product/boston-blue



Oops! We couldn’t find that page.


are you sure?

try from here::
http://store.axismaps.com/category/boston

then click on 'blue'

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Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-01-02 18:26, Jeff Meyer wrote:

What do you mean, The wrong route? Is there a wrong route for
recruiting and engaging new mappers?


well, yes. any route which doesn't recruit or engage them.

and i'm not keen on the word recruit anyway, it makes OSM sound like 
the army, or a cult



As for interacting, why are you presuming I have not done so?


well, i didn't presume so. i asked if so

the point i was trying to make is that perhaps the experience is 
alienating because of all the new software, ideas, concepts that someone 
who wishes to map has to learn. instead of more software, more tools, 
perhaps what they need is someone talking with them?


maybe they are the types that don't read help guides, that if they 
can't understand it straight away give up, rather than search for help 
or advice?



 On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Robin Paulson ro...@bumblepuppy.org

 The issue Im trying to address is this: people who sign up for
OSM 

then make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the
editor? Is
it because they dont know what to edit?


have you tried good old human interaction? rather than trying to
second guess them and spending a lot of time creating some tool
which doesnt address the problem, maybe ask why they dont
contribute?

this isnt at all answering the question you asked, but i think you
may have asked a question which takes you down the wrong route.


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Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-01-02 07:26, Jeff Meyer wrote:

I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play
around with the code youve written, to see what results it generates?

 The issue Im trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM 
then make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is
it because they dont know what to edit?


have you tried good old human interaction? rather than trying to second 
guess them and spending a lot of time creating some tool which doesn't 
address the problem, maybe ask why they don't contribute?


this isn't at all answering the question you asked, but i think you may 
have asked a question which takes you down the wrong route.


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Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Robin Paulson]

On 2012-12-31 18:54, Jeff Meyer wrote:

Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a
particular map area?

For example, for a given bb(zoomsome min) in a browser window, is
there anything that says:
- Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas
like the one youre viewing, this area has:
  -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
  -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
  -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
  -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but dont (e.g. schools)

  -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
  -- Theres a park with no trails - learn how to add
  -- etc.

In general, Im thinking of something that will help new users answer
the question, How can I help?, particularly for their local hood


the problem with that is that it makes osm rather more conservative 
than it perhaps wants to be. newbies, who come to the project with less 
ideas about 'how things are, and how things should be' are one useful 
avenue for critique of what we do, why and how. steering them into a way 
which says what we think they can do will possibly decrease that, which 
would be our loss and theirs


the more flippant answer to what they could map would be to suggest 
they look at the map, then walk round a neighbourhood and record what 
they think is relevant and not already mapped. all the hints are there 
already,


whenever someone asks me what should i map? i say well, what do you 
think is important, what matters to you, what interests you?, rather 
than giving them a list of what i think matters, or what i have been 
indoctrinated to believe 'should' be on a map


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[OSM-talk] there are lots of falkland islands

[Robin Paulson]

tens, possibly hundreds in fact.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-51.8629lon=-58.2445zoom=13layers=M
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-51.8315lon=-58.9263zoom=12layers=M

perhaps an import gone wrong?

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[OSM-talk] fences, trees and houses

[Robin Paulson]

i've done some quite detailed editing near where i live, i'd appreciate 
anyone who is interested taking a look and responding.


i'm not sure what to make of the result. for one, my partner, a 
non-mapper, has told me she finds it very confusing, which potentially 
raises questions


http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.91503lon=174.77973zoom=16layers=M

cheers,

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Re: [OSM-talk] Data copied from Google Maps

[Robin Paulson]

On 2012-11-04 19:08, andrzej zaborowski wrote:
2(e) use the Products in a manner that gives you or any other person 
access to mass downloads or bulk feeds of any Content, including but 
not limited to numerical latitude or longitude coordinates, imagery, 
and visible map data;


so checking the odd street names is OK.. but every street name I 
would suggest would represent a bulk feed.


let's say there are 100,000 people involved in OSM. each copies one 
name from google (so, not in her/his eyes a mass download). the OSM 
database then contains 100,000 pieces of data which are sourced from 
google. this then does constitute a mass access of data, and is 
definitely outside their terms and conditions.


how do you know everyone else is not thinking the same thing as you, 
and checking the odd street names?


and by the way, whoever it was using the phrase memory aid does not 
change what is happening. it is copying data whatever linguistic 
gymnastics you go through to try and justify it, and is thus not ok. as 
someone else said, you want the data, go collect it.


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Re: [Talk-ca] [Imports] canvec import in ontario

[Robin Paulson]

On 29 July 2012 21:21, Jesse Davis eccent...@slavery.cx wrote:
 I'd like to import some canvec data for the area just north of Plevna,
 Ontario, Canada (NTS 031F02), which has not been imported and for the
 most part is completely blank. I have downloaded the most recent canvec
 10 data and it looks like the import is easy enough to do using the
 provided osm files and the josm editor (I've done many edits in the past
 with josm).

 I imported a tile (NTS 031F02.0.0.0) before realizing that there were
 import guidelines, and I shouldn't just go ahead without first
 consulting the community. So, I'd just like to make sure it's ok to
 proceed.

 I will use a separate account for the imports as per the guideline.

 Is there anything else I should know or do before proceeding?

have a look at this page first:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

it covers some guidelines for what to do. i'd recommend going through
them, and posting back here with how you've got on with each stage.

in general though:
we have found with the current import in NZ, that it is best to
proceed with extreme caution, and involve all around you who may be
affected, taking account of everything they say

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[OSM-talk] return of the 'NoName' layer on the osm.org map?

[Robin Paulson]

given a major deletion of osm data occurred in the last week or two,
there are now possibly millions of roads and other items which will be
re-mapped. it would be very useful to get the NoName layer back on the
front page, to assist with this. could i most humbly request that
happen please?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Redaction finished already?

[Robin Paulson]

On 26 July 2012 08:17, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 Imports are by their intrinsic nature never urgent (it is not as if the
 3rd party data is going to vanish if you don't import it today). I would
 strongly suggest doing something more useful, like helping with
 remapping Australia or Poland, than wasting time on something that can
 easily wait.

i don't think it's wasting time. if it improves the map, it's useful.
the question the person asked is whether or not it is a good idea to
do them yet, from a technical perspective vis-a-vis the redaction
process.

also, this is a (mostly unspoken) principle which free/open projects work upon:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need
(Louis Blanc, 1839)

so, if OP finds it useful and there are no technical reasons why not
to, i say go for it if that's what you want.

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[OSM-talk] what is happening here - potlatch oddness with orange highlights?

[Robin Paulson]

http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=-36.878407lon=174.741523zoom=19

the landuse polygon has an orange highlight on it, why does it do that?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM Database Re-Build

[Robin Paulson]

On 16 November 2011 07:16, Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz wrote:
 In the UK, issues due to the use of national mapping agency data have been
 resolved and in Australia we have had explicit permission to use the bulk of
 government-derived imports. That mostly completes our list of known specific
 import dataset-related issues from the Import Catalogue where we can
 actively help. If there are any more, New Zealand?, please let us know.

yes, there has been permission given to publish LINZ data under CT and
ODBL. i will see if i can dig up something more solid to refer to

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Re: [OSM-talk] XML database VS PostgreSQL for OSM

[Robin Paulson]

 Please don't comment on this if you don't know what an XML database is
 or how it functions. It is not a simple documentstore analogue to a
 filesystem.

ok, cheers.

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Re: [OSM-talk] XML database VS PostgreSQL for OSM

[Robin Paulson]

On 19 October 2011 20:58, dre . gwen...@hotmail.fr wrote:
 Considering an OSM data fragment representing a town as Paris, London, etc,
 I wonder assets and drawbacks of using a XML file (myTown.osm) against tools
 as pgRouting or another PostgreSQL based database for routing,
 visualization, updates from main server?

hi,
you might get a better response on the dev mailing list.

in brief, though: postgres will be a hell of a lot quicker serving
data than xml. xml is easy to read and process by hand, but it is slow
and the files are big.

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Re: [OSM-talk] user rankings (was: Re: featured image)

[Robin Paulson]

On 8 September 2011 10:03, Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote:
 I thought about user rankings some time ago as well. I have mixed
 feelings.
 On the one hand it might be a way to motivate users to contribute more and
 to reward users having contributed more useful things than others.

 On the other hand I fear it can easily drift into something worse. People
 editing specific for the ranking.
 Have you heard of the cobra effect?
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

 It could actually create worse data when people try to improve their ranking
 by cheating the statistics.

i've written quite a lot about this for university, and there's plenty
of evidence that offering a reward isn't much of an incentive.
stallman cited some psychological studies by Amabile and Lepper:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html

and there's more on these studies by eric raymond, in 'homesteading
the noosphere':
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/homesteading/ar01s19.html

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Re: [OSM-talk] Moving Map on Netbook?

[Robin Paulson]

On 5 August 2011 11:31, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
   I'd like to use my netbook to show a moving map. Assuming that I somehow
 get gpsd hooked up and delivering position reports[*], what software can I
 use?

which distro are you using frederik?

i use ubuntu and debian on my hp laptop and openmoko phone, and they
both have tangogps (aka foxtrotgps) in the repositories. it stores
tiles locally, and allows one to add as many map repositories as one
likes. it may be available for windows as well

it will track via gps, and update the position continuously

http://tangogps.org

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Re: [OSM-talk] Blatant case of tagging for the renderer

[Robin Paulson]

On 30 July 2011 01:19, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'll leave it for a few days so others can see it in all its glory :)
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/31408390
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/31408400

gah, i see this all the time in akl
name='Public car park
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.905124lon=174.737869zoom=18layers=M

is the latest, but also

name=Cliff'
name=Water tower
name=Footpath
name=Bus stop
etc,
the odd thing is, they are otherwise correctly tagged.

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[Robin Paulson]

On 27 July 2011 12:40, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote:
 like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North,
 for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes

ha, there's a road near me labelled on sign posts as:
Grt Sth Rd

which must be so easy to interpret for all the none-native english speakers

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[Robin Paulson]

On 28 July 2011 10:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2011/7/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com:
 name is what is on (the majority of) the signs


 name is the name. Or what would be the name if the sign-majority was
 defined and there were 2 differing signs? nil? Or if there was 1 sign
 and that was spellt wrong? Signs are indices, but they contain errors
 and bugs like everything else.

the sign (and a map, including OSM) is an attempt to quantify and
record the social reality of the name of the street

as social reality depends upon the observer, there are potentially
lots of answers to how we write the name. which is how we end up with
'do what you, a local, think is appropriate' - also known as 'ground
truth'

trying to find a definitive 'correct' answer is thus by definition
impossible and likely to end in dispute (or at least a very long mail
thread with no resolution...)

and yeah, i come from England, live in NZ, so map both Derbyshire and Auckland

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[Robin Paulson]

On 28 July 2011 12:06, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote:
 name: Magdalen Road
 pronounced: More-da-lin Road

 ?

 That's ridiculous if you ask me. If you're making sat nav software for a
 market (the UK, France, America, etc.) you should be able to work out these
 things yourself.

why?

in that instance, there are a lot of people in england who would
pronounce that 'wrongly'.

although as i said earlier, this is all socially constructed - there's
no correct answer, and i'm not sure we should encourage that there is.

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Re: [OSM-talk] data reconciliation tools

[Robin Paulson]

On 21 July 2011 04:54, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 Color-coded map of ODbL status
 http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/map/

accepted the odbl? has anyone voted on that yet?

or do you mean accepted the CT?

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[Robin Paulson]

On 11 July 2011 13:32, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2011/7/7 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org:
 On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:35:07PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
 is there any consensus on shortening of parts of names?...
 i was under the impression consensus was to type the full word, then
 renderers would shorten where necessary? apparently some mappers
 disagree though

 Yes, thats the consensus and has been for a long time. Some mappers always
 disagree, just ignore them. :-)

does anyone here know what st albans in uk is actually called then?

i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected' it to

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Re: [OSM-talk] Orphaned Relations

[Robin Paulson]

On 18 July 2011 23:15, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 I'd be tempted to delete them all if they're older than 3 months or so. Some
 of you said that it might have been something valuable accidentally deleted,
 but if nobody noticed that within 3 months then it cannot have been *so*
 valuable. (And if it was, it has likely been recreated already.)

+1

sounds reasonable.

i deleted the empty relation i created

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Re: [OSM-talk] new zealand, australia

[Robin Paulson]

On 7 July 2011 17:56, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 Looking at the details it seems like the Australia being referred to
 is the continent, not the country. The New Zealand node has a
 is_in:continent=Australia tag and there is a place=continent node

a-ha, thanks

 that nominatim is associating it with. So I guess this is correct
 but perhaps a little confusing in how it is displayed. Perhaps you
 should rename your continent to avoid this confusion!

yes, we're in oceania now

 On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Robin Paulson  the search result for 'new 
 zealand', it zooms me in to zoom level 14
 or something equally silly, so i am guessing it is tagged wrongly. any

any suggestions for this? why does it zoom in so close?

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Re: [OSM-talk] adding multiple relations (bus routes) to one road

[Robin Paulson]

On 7 July 2011 23:02, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 You don't actually say what the problem is.

err, what? the problem is managing the ways inside the editor
(potlatch 2). it gets very messy and is hard to keep track of. i find
at later dates i have made several mistakes that need correcting

 If you mean cutting the ways into small segments then a possible answer
 could be to add a separate way over the top of the roads that is just tagged
 with the route relation. I've done this in areas where bicycle routes cross
 pedestrian areas. I'm not sure if this is a perfect solution  I'd welcome
 comments.

that sounds very clumsy. if the routes (bus and other traffic) share
the way, drawing another way is (a) wrong (b) difficult to edit, and
(c) confusing

 if you mean the number of labels that OBM displays, then that's more a
 problem for the renderer. I'm not sure every segments has to display the
 route number.

no. i sent that link as it shows the complexity/number of relations
without hitting edit

 Incidentally, does route 205 terminate at the end of Bond Street?

well spotted. no, it turns east. i think that demonstrates my point
actually. i didn't realise i hadn't tagged great north road with that
route

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Re: [OSM-talk] adding multiple relations (bus routes) to one road

[Robin Paulson]

On 7 July 2011 23:59, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com wrote:
 With P2 the easier way of working is to select a whole series of ways
 (ctrl-click to add a second way while maintaining selection of the
 first), then add all of the ways to a relation (or multiple relations)
 at the same time.

 You can select all members of an existing relation using the little
 triangle to the right on the relation list, then add them to another
 relation (or remove them all from another relation).

ah, that makes things easier

still not quite what i'm after though

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[OSM-talk] house numbers, new zealand style

[Robin Paulson]

i'm currently adding house numbers to some properties in my locality
(and using this to prepare for an import).

the problem is this: some blocks of houses have both a street address
and a unit number. so we might have the situation of 12/8 mount eden
road, auckland

which means:
property number 12
unit 8
mount eden road
this will be attached to unit 1, unit 2, unit, ..., 7, unit 9, etc.

i checked out the numbering schemes on the wiki and can't see anything
which covers this. any suggestions?

my idea was to label the building as number 12, mount eden road

and then add points in the centre of each unit, with their full
address, i.e. including the unit number. what do you think?

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Re: [OSM-talk] adding multiple relations (bus routes) to one road

[Robin Paulson]

On 6 July 2011 22:39, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
 Detaching intersection nodes is not something usual. At the moment, the
 complexity is more on managing ways with an increasing amount of relations
 and an increasing amount of segments within the relations for a single
 street.

hmm, all interesting ideas guys, but it looks like i'm stuck for the
moment with manual management

is there a way in potlatch 2 to copy relations from one way/node to
another? in potlatch 1 it was 'hold the Ctrl-key while clicking the
relations button' i think

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[OSM-talk] new zealand, australia

[Robin Paulson]

i did a search for new zealand, and was heartened to find we are now
part of australia. at last, we have come to our senses and joined as a
nation!

slightly more seriously, could someone help with the labelling of the
node for nz? apart from somehow being part of australia, if i click on
the search result for 'new zealand', it zooms me in to zoom level 14
or something equally silly, so i am guessing it is tagged wrongly. any
suggestions how to fix it?

cheers

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[OSM-talk] adding multiple relations (bus routes) to one road

[Robin Paulson]

hi,
I'm currently adding a lot of bus routes to roads in central Auckland.
problem is, it's getting hard to manage.

some road segments have 40+ routes on them, which gets complicated.
here is an example of one which I've added 12 routes to; there will be
lots more

http://www.openbusmap.org/?zoom=17lat=-36.86508lon=174.74462layers=BT

are there any suggestions for making it easier?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Featured mapping, parks

[Robin Paulson]

On 4 July 2011 12:09, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=38.76211lon=-77.29749zoom=15layers=M
 (Burke Lake Park)
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=38.77389lon=-77.10726zoom=17layers=M
 (Lee District Park)

 I'd appreciate any links to well mapped parks, and perhaps I could create a

i would consider this well mapped (but then i may be biased):
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.85957lon=174.77675zoom=16layers=M

auckland domain, in nz

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[OSM-talk] the map on osm.org - airstrips showing only at zoom 10

[Robin Paulson]

mappers in NZ have recently imported a lot of grass airstrips into
OSM. it appears the airstrips only render at zoom 10 on the mapnik
render of the map at osm.org, which looks like this:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-37.243lon=175.014zoom=10layers=M

is there any particular reason for this, osm.org map maintainer?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch 2.2

[Robin Paulson]

On 20 June 2011 05:12, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 I'm pleased to announce Potlatch 2.2 is live.
when i try and save edits, i get 'saving changeset NaN' and then it
refuses, giving:
Couldn't upload data: HTTP request error

also, the bing imagery is not showing, even when i select it in the
'background' menu

potlatch 1 is working ok

looking forward to the new changes though, i like the way potlatch is developing

cheers,

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[OSM-talk] the contributor terms - editing in josm/potlatch

[Robin Paulson]

a few weeks back, i was forced to either accept or decline the CTs.
from what i recall, i declined. i've been editing in potlatch ever
since, but today tried out josm, as potlatch 2 is broken.

apparently, i now can't edit, as
Authorisation at the OSM server failed
The server reported the following error:
You must accept the contributor terms before you can edit

i can still edit ok in potlatch 1

what's happening?

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Re: [OSM-talk] the contributor terms - editing in josm/potlatch

[Robin Paulson]

On 20 June 2011 16:20, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 i can still edit ok in potlatch 1

 what's happening?

 I believe the next phase of the license change went into effect today.
 You must accept the terms in order to keep contributing. Potlatch 1
 still working might be a bug? Not sure.

wonderful

when is fosm.org going live again?

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[OSM-talk] open bus map - the maintainers?

[Robin Paulson]

hi,
does anyone know who maintains the open bus map?

i discovered it earlier - fantastic work, something i'd looked for for
a while, but wanted to make a suggestion about rendering the bus
routes based on the colour stored in the relation details.

any ideas, the website has no contact details anywhere i can see

cheers,

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[OSM-talk] the transport network renders by 3liz

[Robin Paulson]

does anyone know anything about this?
http://3liz.fr/public/osmtransport/index.php

it's rather useful, but it doesn't look like the data set's been
updated in a while. is the owner here?

cheers,

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[OSM-talk] naming an item in multiple languages

[Robin Paulson]

i live in nz, a country with two (three if you count sign langauge)
government-approved languages: english and maori.

lots of items are named in both, for example the highest volcano in
auckland is called Mount Eden/Manugawhau - the latter literally
translates as hill of the whau tree

so, when i name it, i get something like this:
name:en=Mount Eden
name:mi=Maungawhau

so, what do i put for name=?

anything at all?
it is mostly known as mount eden, so is it that?

some things are more commonly known by their maori name than their
english name, e.g.:
name:mi=Te Araroa
name:en=The Long Path

so, it Te Araroa in the name= tag?

and then, some only have a maori name. for example, Pukekohe. do i name it

name:mi=Pukekohe
or
name:en=Pukekohe
or
name=Pukekohe

or some combination of these?

we also have Auckland, which sits in an area known as Tamaki,
although the latter is not clearly enough defined to allow it to be
rationally mapped as the city of auckland is*. what to do here?

* which makes a nice commentary on the whole highly political nature
of mapping, and how a map is a not a benign concept.

cheers

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[OSM-talk] bus times - existing tags

[Robin Paulson]

i'm getting more into tagging bus routes in auckland, and wonder if
there is a tagging scheme to cover the times of bus
arrivals/departures? i have a few ideas of how it might work, but want
to check out the existing system first. i can't find anything on the
wiki

cheers

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[OSM-talk] poland to open publically-funded data

[Robin Paulson]

from slashdot:
the polish prime minister announced a bill to ensure all government
data will be released as public domain.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=nprev=_thl=plie=UTF-8layout=2eotf=1sl=pltl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.premier.gov.pl%2Fcentrum_prasowe%2Fwydarzenia%2Fw_kprm_o_rozwoju_internetu%2C6599%2F

original, in polish:
http://www.premier.gov.pl/centrum_prasowe/wydarzenia/w_kprm_o_rozwoju_internetu,6599/

here's hoping it passes, and includes geo data

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Re: [OSM-talk] low resource osm xapi instance

[Robin Paulson]

On 25 May 2011 02:32, Ian ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 Everything I've read about XAPI and JXAPI has said that only one predicate
 is supported, aside from the bbox predicate.  It's possible that you're
 getting all the bus routes within that bbox.

 JXAPI allows multiple predicates, but they are currently OR'd rather than
 AND'd like I meant them to be. The above query is akin to saying give me
 all relations with route=bus OR ref=010 OR in bbox=
 And yes, bbox'd relation queries aren't quite working. In this particular
 case I would suggest that you query for relation[ref=010] (since it is
 likely to return the fewest results) and use JOSM or similar to filter out
 what you're looking for.

so, are there any api servers, with current data, which allow me to
get a set of relations, dependent upon one tag predicate and one area
predicate?

ultimately, i am looking for something like:
http://xapi.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/relation[route=bus][bbox=-174.327,-37.236,175.324,-36.519]

to get all bus routes in auckland

the [ref=010] in the original mail was purely a starting point, to
check i was getting the api syntax correct

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Re: [OSM-talk] low resource osm xapi instance

[Robin Paulson]

On 26 May 2011 14:57, Ian ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 JXAPI allows multiple predicates, but they are currently OR'd rather than
 AND'd like I meant them to be. The above query is akin to saying give me
 all relations with route=bus OR ref=010 OR in bbox=

 I just pushed some code out (and deployed to jxapi.osm.org) that fixes this.
 You can specify multiple tag predicates and they will be AND'd:
 [route=bus][ref=010] = (route=bus) AND (ref=010)
 [route=bus|foo][ref=010] = ((route=bus) OR (route=foo)) AND (ref=010)

hmm, interesting. when i run this:
http://jxapi.osm.org/xapi/api/0.6/relation%5Broute=bus%5D%5Bref=010%5D%5Bbbox=174.327,-37.236,175.324,-36.519%5D

i get two relations, one in nz (as hoped for) and one in munich

is it ignoring the bbox predicate? or have i got the numbers wrong?

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Re: [OSM-talk] relations within relations - walking trails

[Robin Paulson]

On 24 May 2011 20:10, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Say you see a way in Potlatch which is a member of relation X (in Robin's
 example, the Auckland coast to coast trail), and you want to add this
 relation X to another relation, Y, which already exists (in Robin's example,
 the 'te araroa' trail).

 * Select the way
 * use Advanced mode to see relation X of wich way is a member
 * double click relation X to open relation editor
 * use Advanced mode to see relations of which X is member (currently
 empty)
 * click Add to to add X to another relation
 * since Y is unlikely to be already loaded, and thus will not appear in the
 list, click Load Relation and enter Y's relation ID
 * Y is loaded, and X is made a child of Y.

excellent, thanks. exactly what i was after

 In cases where Y doesn't already exist, use the New Relation button
 instead of New Relation.

 If you don't know the relation ID of Y, and don't even know an area that you
 could load to find it, then it is possible that you can use Google for that,
 searching for something like

 site:www.openstreetmap.org  relation type=route route=hiking e6

ah, that's a good idea.

i wonder - is there a way in osm to search for relations, other than
using google/some other external search engine?

if i know the number it's easy enough, but as you say, that's not
always the case.

also, if i have accidentally created a relation by mistake, how do i delete it?

cheers for the help

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[OSM-talk] low resource osm xapi instance

[Robin Paulson]

hi,
based on the issues with the current xapi servers (i.e. almost always
overloaded/down), i'm looking at running a separate instance, on the
osm new zealand site - purely for serving data nz at the moment.

this won't be a huge amount of data - the whole country is around
250mb uncompressed

does anyone have recommendations for a simple, low maintenance, low
resource server, with (mostly) full api implementation? i've taken a
brief look at xappy.js and microcosm - has anyone used these much?

cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Building Equals Yes

[Robin Paulson]

On 17 May 2011 17:29, Michal Migurski m...@stamen.com wrote:
 By my colleague Aaron Cope:

        building=yes is a searchable and linkable index of every singleway 
 tagged building=yes in OpenStreetMap (OSM).

 A web page for every building in OpenStreetMap!

i love it. excellent, and very imaginative.

great title too

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Re: [OSM-talk] low resource osm xapi instance

[Robin Paulson]

On 24 May 2011 10:34, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 Do you know about the new jXAPI servers being run by both OSMF and
 Mapquest open? I haven't used them recently so I'm not sure if they
 are always overloaded as well or not.

i got the impression from the xapi page that relations are not fully
supported on the jxapi servers, either osm or mapquest.

i tried to download a relation yesterday, with probably 50 members,
and killed it when my firefox instance hit 1.5GB RAM use. more
investigation showed it wasn't getting the data i wanted, but a
gigantic set instead, from the whole world

 I have my own instance of this java based XAPI[1] service running on
 my server at home. For only serving up New Zealand I think any old
 server should do. I actually have the whole planet in my database. It

if they covered relations completely, i would consider it, or not
create one at all and use the mapquest server

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Re: [OSM-talk] low resource osm xapi instance

[Robin Paulson]

On 24 May 2011 11:17, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 i got the impression from the xapi page that relations are not fully
 supported on the jxapi servers, either osm or mapquest.

 i tried to download a relation yesterday, with probably 50 members,
 and killed it when my firefox instance hit 1.5GB RAM use. more
 investigation showed it wasn't getting the data i wanted, but a
 gigantic set instead, from the whole world

hmm, thinking more, perhaps it's my interpretation of the xapi syntax
that's faulty.

this is my query:
http://open.mapquestapi.com/xapi/api/0.6/relation[route=bus][ref=010][bbox=-174.327,-37.236,175.324,-36.519]

i want to get a relation for a bus route in auckland, the name of which is '010'

is this correct?

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[OSM-talk] relations within relations - walking trails

[Robin Paulson]

i am mapping walking tracks in new zealand, and have recently added
'te araroa' - the walking track from the top of the north island to
the bottom of the south.

it is made up at parts of the way of other walking tracks, such as the
'coast to coast' walking track in the auckland region.

problem is, i can't get my head round how to relate the two in a relation

any suggestions? i'm using potlatch to do my editing, so examples
using that would be good

cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch2 Firefox 4

[Robin Paulson]

On 27 April 2011 00:11, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 I don't think this is directly P2 related but...

 Using Win XP, SP3. Flash 10.2.153.1

 I've just upgraded to Firefox 4.0.

 I have multiple tabs open, one with P2 in edit mode. When I have another tab
 active  use the middle mouse wheel to scroll it changes the zoom of the map
 in P2.

 It took me a while to cotton on, initially it just appears that FF is just
 being sluggish. It didn't happen in FF 3.6

 Is anybody else getting this  know how to sort it?

yes, i got a similar bug with P2 while using pgup and pgdn to scroll
in and out, with firefox 3.6

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Re: [OSM-talk] Analysing the OSM community

[Robin Paulson]

On 30 March 2011 01:12, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
 I shall simply agree with you that a sociological study based on 16 people
 falls short of accepted scientific study.

 My personal view is much of sociology would like to be accepted as science
 but is for the most part subjective.

most sociologists would be horrified by the idea of this kind of work
being accepted as science. qualitative analysis is for the most part a
rejection of the scientific method.

to say it is subjective somewhat misses the point, mainly as this is
such a loaded word according to adherents of the scientific method

 By the way it can be scientific I've worked on a number of Statistics Canada
 surveys were we did interview the required number of people from random
 samples and followed the ideals of the scientific method.

yes, but that would be a quantitative study - a wholly different
approach to studying people, with different intended outcomes (mainly:
testing of theory, rather than generation of theory) and a different
philosophy/ideology

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Re: [OSM-talk] Analysing the OSM community

[Robin Paulson]

On 29 March 2011 10:09, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote:
 I didn't find the abstract meaningful as it was full of politically
 correct speak.

well done, an entire scientific study dismissed with a meaningless
piece of jargon. perhaps a more in-depth analysis would be more
useful?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Analysing the OSM community

[Robin Paulson]

On 29 March 2011 12:26, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
 Speaking as someone with a background in science I think I agree with
 Elizabeth's interpretation.

 I get the impression the study is much more subjective than solid, the
 sample size far too small to get any meaningful results other than this
 needs more research dollars to further define etc etc.

ah, you mean the language is elitist and highly complicated? yes, i
would agree - welcome to academia. i'm not sure what the catch phrase
of the angry redneck ('politically correct') has to do with that
though

and unfortunately this (complicated language) is common to any area of
any complexity, even the holy OSM itself.

personally (having a background in sociology), the abstract is
meaningful and does make sense. to a sociologist. to expect to
understand the language is like reading a phd thesis on astro-physics
and complaining because you can't understand it. these are complicated
themes, based on complicated theories. it's not written with amateur
GISers in mind, although it perhaps should be so the knowledge is made
available to the source it draws from

dissecting what and why: the type of study done here demands a small
sample set - it is not supposed to be representative, generalizable,
or follow any other ideals of the scientific method.

the value is in a huge amount of data from a small number of people,
learning about their understanding of the concepts, not bland
statistics like the number of edits they do, the date they joined osm,
etc. it is typically used to guide the creation of new theories, which
are then tested with quantitative research (asking for bland stats).
to anyone used to working with the scientific method (most comp sci,
engineering, physics, biology, electronics, etc, professionals), this
can look a bit lightweight, but it's a different way of ascribing
meaning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_research

for more

 I've just been reading a study on licensing by a consultant.  Take out the
 jargon and it says the more liberal the license the more likely it is that
 people will use your Open data.  Well yes but did we really need a study
 to discover that?

is that all it said? i'd be surprised if there wasn't slightly more

 I like jargon when it is used as a short hand way of expressing something to
 a group of people working in a field but not when it is used to add
 respectability to a report.

this is true, i'd agree, but you're in a difficult situation. how do
you explain difficult concepts, which may themselves rest on other
difficult concepts, without talking in this way?

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[OSM-talk] the coastline

[Robin Paulson]

i've recently been doing some mapping around auckland, adding coastal
walkways. one in particular i walked on sunday has two routes: one at
the foot of the cliffs, one on the road at the top of the cliffs. the
lower route is under water when the tide is in, so walkers are advised
to follow the road route.

so, i added the route, and it is now under water:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-36.927322lon=174.709115zoom=18layers=M

this seems wrong, drawing a route which is then under water, but the
alternative of moving the path is also wrong.

so, what do we do?

the question becomes (in my mind): why do we have a single way mapped
'coastline'? this implies the boundary between land and water is
static, but of course it moves - a number of times per day.

i like the possibility of a high water mark and a low water mark, used
together to entirely replace the natural=coastline tag.

perhaps some of you have some ideas around this also?

thanks,

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robin

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Re: [OSM-talk] mapping hypotheticals with OSM, e.g., for public charrettes?

[Robin Paulson]

On 9 March 2011 06:58, Tom Roche tom_ro...@pobox.com wrote:
 I like the sound of the latter option, since I'd prefer not to hafta
 setup a separate system. But again, I don't know enough about OSM to
 implement that. Where would I go to learn?

a good start for all development-related items:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Develop

also, asking lots of questions on the dev ml (after you've read the
relevant bits from above!)

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Re: [OSM-talk] infrastructure tracing in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

On 3 March 2011 03:22, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 Bounding box contains ~53,000 objects and 94 users, extends roughly:
 Canon Street in the north, Coleridge Street in the south, Tui Street
 in the west and Bracken Street in the east.

don't forget the equally incredible work in sumner (east of the city)
and lyttelton (south-east)

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Re: [OSM-talk] rendering map tiles with mapnik - hardware requirements

[Robin Paulson]

On 2 March 2011 00:42, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 Yes, you will not need a very big machine. I am currently rendering
 Italy (similar in size to NZ) and it takes around 2 days with a really

haha. italy has 14 times the data of NZ, so i guess we can reduce that
time somewhat...

 lame laptop (3 GB RAM, Intel Core2 Solo U3500 @1.4 GHz) for Zoomlevels
 0-15 (one day for Level 0-14) and a quite complex stylesheet.

excellent, this is looking more like the sort of hardware i imagined

cheers for the advice guys

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[OSM-talk] rendering map tiles with mapnik - hardware requirements

[Robin Paulson]

we at OSM New Zealand are looking at rendering our own (NZ-only)
tiles, and we'd like to get a rough idea of the hardware requirements
we will need

are there any rules of thumb for how long it would take to render a
given lat/lon bbox, using mapnik?

i assume lat/lon is the independent variable, although i guess
density/complexity of data will affect things as well.

disk space, cpu, ram, time would be useful

cheers,

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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Crisis mapping - assistance requested for infrastructure mapping in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

On 28 February 2011 05:26, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 the other areas badly hit were mosgiel, lyttleton and sumner (all
 suburbs in/close to christchurch) - if anyone could add data there,
 that would be fantastic also

 This Mosgiel seems further from CHCH (near Dunedin) Do I have the wrong one?

well spotted richard - you're right, there is only one mosgiel and
it's not near chch. my mistake, please ignore that. i've checked and
sumner, lyttelton and central city are correct though

the map of chch is looking phenomenal now, there's been a huge effort
put in, this is excellent

cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Crisis mapping - assistance requested for infrastructure mapping in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

On 28 February 2011 12:45, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 well spotted richard - you're right, there is only one mosgiel and
 it's not near chch. my mistake, please ignore that. i've checked and
 sumner, lyttelton and central city are correct though

also, Redhills, Mount Pleasant and Hoon Hay are in badly-affected
areas, and will have lots of damaged buildings.

more to come.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crisis mapping - assistance requested for infrastructure mapping in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

On 28 February 2011 14:37, Hendrik Oesterlin hendrikmail2...@yahoo.de wrote:
 I created a Garmin gmapsupp.img with OSM data and additionally the
 map from www.nzopengps.org as extra layers as it has good data too.

it does indeed - this is government-derived data, originally sourced
from LINZ, and even better quality once NZ open GPS get their hands on
it

 On the Garmin device, go to Map Info and deactivate the nzopengps
 layers in order to see the OSM layers.

 I have put the download of this Garmin map on my web page (normally
 used only for New Caledonia maps):
 www.oesterlin.ile.nc/gps

there's also a .png tile set available of the original (LINZ) data.
got to http://www.openstreetmap.org.nz/
click the '+' at top-right
select LINZ - Joe Richards import

we're working on the import of this into osm

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crisis mapping - assistance requested for infrastructure mapping in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

On 25 February 2011 13:42, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 NZ mappers have been discussing how they can help, and we have decided
 it would be useful to trace as many of these pieces of infrastructure

update: chch building mapping is going very well, thanks to whoever is helping.

the other areas badly hit were mosgiel, lyttleton and sumner (all
suburbs in/close to christchurch) - if anyone could add data there,
that would be fantastic also

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[OSM-talk] Crisis mapping - assistance requested for infrastructure mapping in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

Hi OSM mappers,
As most of you are probably aware, we had a severe earthquake in
Christchurch, New Zealand this week, killing over 100 people and
demolishing or damaging hundreds, possibly thousands of the following:
buildings
roads
bridges
water mains
electricity supplies
sewage drains
other major infrastructure.

NZ mappers have been discussing how they can help, and we have decided
it would be useful to trace as many of these pieces of infrastructure
as possible in the affected area. Christchurch has very good Bing
imagery taken last year, allowing pre-quake items to be traced quite
accurately.

High quality post-earthquake imagery will be available in the next
24-48 hours [1], to enable further tracing [2], to show the current
situation.

Both pre- and post-quake tracing are requested, to allow appraisal of
the differences caused by the earthquake.

If anyone can help, please head over to
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-43.563lon=172.7zoom=11 and lend a
hand.

Tracing of altered natural features would also be useful, although
infrastructure is of more importance for the moment

Any further questions, please ask.

[1] we're not sure where or how yet - perhaps someone can assist here
also, getting the images into Potlatch/JOSM/etc.?
[2] with appropriate tags for damaged/re-arranged items - would the
likes of 'date_on' be appropriate here? please advise if you can
suggest the most suitable tags to use


thanks,
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Re: [OSM-talk] Crisis mapping - assistance requested for infrastructure mapping in Christchurch

[Robin Paulson]

On 25 February 2011 13:42, Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com wrote:
 High quality post-earthquake imagery will be available in the next
 24-48 hours [1], to enable further tracing [2], to show the current
 situation.

snip

 [1] we're not sure where or how yet - perhaps someone can assist here
 also, getting the images into Potlatch/JOSM/etc.?

i've been informed there will be info posted on:
http://maps.eq.org.nz/
along with access details for WMS and downloads in the enar future

this promises to be very high resolution, so will greatly assist any mapping

is there any possibility richard, of this being included in a potlatch release?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Robin Paulson]

On 19 February 2011 12:06, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 David Murn wrote:
 If the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one
 system currently, in the world), then who cares about java,
 why isnt it written in optimized C or some other similarly
 lowish level language, rather than java?

 Your search - murn site:svn.openstreetmap.org - did not match any
 documents.

 Suggestions:

 Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
 Try different keywords.
 Try more general keywords.
 Try fewer keywords.

i think this does not move us forward - david is as valued as anyone
when making suggestions. slapping him down with an almighty and rather
arrogantly communicated you (apparently) haven't made any code
contributions doesn't help anyone, and probably makes him less likely
to help, not more likely.

be nice

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam?]Re: Underground / hovering buildings

[Robin Paulson]

On 17 February 2011 12:21, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote:
 Ive fixed quite a number of spots where keepright has picked up a river
 and highway on the same layer (=0), generally without a junction node.

i wonder what would be the consequences of scripting this?

if layer does not exist and bridge = yes
then layer = 1
note = layer set by a bot, please check manually
?

possibly with some intelligence by checking for ways crossing but not
intersecting

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Re: [OSM-talk] Underground / hovering buildings

[Robin Paulson]

On 15 February 2011 10:26, Andrew Guertin andrew.guer...@uvm.edu wrote:
 I have a few buildings that are not simply at ground level, and I can't
 find how to map them on the wiki.

 First off, a skywalk between two buildings. Nothing fancy, although it
 does go over a road.

building=yes
bridge=yes
layer=1

 Second, an underground building. Connects to other buildings that are at
 ground level and have basements.

 Third, a building with a courtyard, and a basement that also extends
 below the basement.

 Fourth a building that has been built into a cliff. At the top of the
 cliff, on top of the building, are roads and sidewalks and things.

 Fifth, a building on a hill, with entrances variously on the third,
 second, and first floor. One of the second floor entrances leads out
 onto a green roof, which has grass planted on it and connects to the
 ground, but reaches out farther than the hill would naturally.

 Are there accepted ways to enter any of these buildings? If there's not
 an accepted way, any thoughts on what I should do?

the others are somewhat difficult - osm doesn't currently account for
them very well. as with most maps, it is based on the assumption that
'ground' is consistent, and everything is a flat, thin item on top of
it. until we think in a different paradigm, the instances you have
listed will be difficult and only achievable by tags which are rather
hacky in their nature (bridge, layer, level, etc.)

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Re: [OSM-talk] osm new zealand website and community launch

[Robin Paulson]

On 7 February 2011 17:11, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
 How do i get meetings included in the wiki front page?

 1) Log in to the wiki.  The wiki account is separate from your api account.
 2) Add your event to the wiki calendar.  [1]


 [1] 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Template:Calendaraction=edit

cool, cheers. is there any way to auto-update that? can it drag events
from calendar feeds for example?

thanks also to claudius for pointing out the broken link

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unsetting CT flag

[Robin Paulson]

On 8 December 2010 11:14, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote:
 Once all the licence issues are resolved and we know whether projects
 will be forked or our data removed, then Ill start dumping all my edits
 back in.  Ive also tried working on parts of New Zealand, but have come
 up against a brick wall as there is an import partially in progress
 (almost all roads, and lots of other POI bits).. but will not be
 completed until the licence is resolved, so basically an entire
 countries mapping is on-hold.  Once the issues are resolved, I have no
 doubt there are lots of mappers in my position who have lots of new data
 to upload.

hi david,
i'm an NZ mapper, and involved with the LINZ import process. the line
we are going with around the import is to encourage mappers to do
their own mapping anyway - the LINZ import will be some time, plus
there are mistakes in the data which will need correcting manually,
and there is greater value in individuals collecting data than relying
on the government. so, map away - your work will not be deleted, we
will work round it.

if you'd like to know more, join us on the nzopengis group -
https://groups.google.com/group/nzopengis

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[OSM-talk] osm new zealand website and community launch

[Robin Paulson]

Hi all,
OSM New Zealand have recently launched their website, and announced
meetings beginning this month:
http://www.openstreetmap.org.nz/
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_New_Zealand#OSM_Auckland_meetings

Other than this list, is there any particular place in the world of
osm where it would be useful to announce this?

How do i get meetings included in the wiki front page?

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM-in-a-box doubts...

[Robin Paulson]

On 26 January 2011 06:42, Juan Lucas Domínguez Rubio
juan_lucas...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Is there a better mailing list than this to get help about this?

osm-dev?

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/

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Re: [OSM-talk] military vs consumer GPS and the equator

[Robin Paulson]

On 26 January 2011 11:22, Steve Doerr steve.do...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
 Whether a similar error regarding the Equator has crept into WGS84, I'm not
 sure. Lines of latitude are not arbitrary in the way lines of longitude are.

is this entirely the case? i was under the impression the earth is not
actually that regular in shape, so i would guess there is a certain
amount of arbitrariness here?

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Re: [OSM-talk] osm new zealand website js problems

[Robin Paulson]

On 25 January 2011 09:57, Milo van der Linden m...@dogodigi.net wrote:
 You have some javascript errors. Missing ; or )

 Please go to http://www.jslint.com/ and paste the content of site.js there.
 -
 The biggest problems are:

 Problem at line 31 character 3: Mixed spaces and tabs. $('map').style.bottom
 = ;

 Problem at line 41 character 6: Missing semicolon. }

 Problem at line 83 character 40: Extra comma. location:
 /markers/mobility.txt,

 -

 They will probably cause openlayers to behave oddly.

 jslint.com and firebug (the firefox addon) are tools that you cannot do
 without when working with javascript and openlayers.

excellent, thanks for the advice and the site - looks useful

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[OSM-talk] osm new zealand website js problems

[Robin Paulson]

hi all,
i put together the osm new zealand site the last week - i learnt a bit
of javascript along the way, but unfortunately not enough. could
someone take a look, and help with the problem i'm having?

http://bumblepuppy.org/osm_nz/

(this address is temporary, until i figure out virtual hosts in apache)

the problem is with the map layers - i added a custom layer i created,
but it displays over the top of other maps sometimes. try selecting
the various maps, and using the 'permalink' function, and you'll see
what i mean.

cheers

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[OSM-talk] importing NZ government data to OSM

[Robin Paulson]

hi all,
after much discussion, deliberation and planning, the NZ OSM crew are
building a tool to help users import data from LINZ to OSM. there are
only a small number of users (perhaps 50) in NZ, and a tiny number of
coders - 4 at last count. so we are looking for help if possible.

if there is anyone here who would like to offer coding
skills/advice/testing (we haven't settled on much yet, although i have
heard Django floated as a web framework), please join us on nzopengis
(https://groups.google.com/group/nzopengis), or reply to me and i'll
include you in the conversation

i don't hang out much in the dev circles of osm, is there anywhere
else i might post to ask for assistance?

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