Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 12:09 PM Mario Frasca  wrote:

> Hi.  this is funny, I recently opened an issue with AllTrails, about
> them not attributing the map.
>
> I wonder if we're talking about the same thing: their Android App shows
> a bright colourful Google logo on top of whatever map you configure as
> your base map.

I was talking specifically about their website.  I should have also checked
their app, but I didn't.  My understanding is that regardless of whose
basemap is displayed, the trail in AllTrails come from OSM.  I can reach
out to Ron again about this separate issue if you would like.  Let me know.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mario Frasca]

Hi.  this is funny, I recently opened an issue with AllTrails, about 
them not attributing the map.


I wonder if we're talking about the same thing: their Android App shows 
a bright colourful Google logo on top of whatever map you configure as 
your base map.  in particular, it can be shown on top of the standard 
OSM map.  there is attribution, but it's in a pop-up window.  to 
activate this window you need eagle eyes, and spot a faint low contrast 
circled lowercase letter "i" (like an info sign, but as said, small, low 
contrast), once spotted, you have to be able to activate it, which isn't 
easy since this widget is on second plane half hidden behind a large 
high contrast + widget.  Attribution in this pop up window is first to 
Mapbox, then to OpenStreetMap, this sequence is so even if you're 
looking at our standard OSM map, and you're not looking at anything 
belonging to Mapbox.


anyhow, the issue with AllTrails is #125657.

on the 18th of October, that's 7 days ago, I wrote about this to 
legal-questi...@osmfoundation.org (which was redirected to 
d...@openstreetmap.org), then again to le...@osmfoundation.org, and I'm 
not so sure what's the status of the call, because our issue tracking 
system assigned my report to the DWG, while it's clearly a LWG issue.


I did correct the wiki page on our wiki, I can't edit the wrong 
information at 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licensing_Working_Group.  I 
mentioned this already on the #osm channel at the oftc irc server.


anyhow, it's several issue shere, only one related to AllTrails, most 
are about our bad organization.


best regards,

Mario Frasca

On 10/09/2020 09:12, miketho16 at gmail.com (Mike Thompson) wrote:

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:02 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:


Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM
without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they
offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it
appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I
have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up
in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
Mike

[0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
trail, park, or city to see their map.)


It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
directing data issues directly to the DWG.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Andy Townsend]

On 11/09/2020 15:17, Mike Thompson wrote:


I will thank Ron for the change and try to start a dialog with our DWG 
about AllTrails asking their users to contact the DWG directly with 
map errors.



Yes - that'd be great.

The wider issues in addition to their support process are that (1) lots 
of trails in the USA don't have access mapped (and are missing other 
detail as well)*, and (2) even when these details are mapped AllTrails' 
maps and apps simply don't do a very good job of showing what there is 
in the area (see my previous comment in the thread about that).


We (the DWG) have fed these issues back to AllTrails' support on a 
number of occasions but we have yet to see meaningful change. Obviously 
the support people within an organisation can only work within the 
parameters that are set for them - if they see "complaints about 
cartography" then it's up to the people responsible for that to fix it, 
not the support staff, and AllTrails' maps suggest they outsource that 
to MapBox.


Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)

* to pick an entirely random example, see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/547170922 for the sort of thing I'm 
talking about.  To be fair, that's a trail 60km from the nearest town so 
I suspect it isn't going to get that much attention in OSM.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Sep 2020, at 21:47, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> 
> Assuming that we're taking about a physical object, I don't see how the 
> importer would have any obligations to do anything under copyright law, 
> database law, or contact law. That question preempts any ODbL analysis.


we are talking about a produced work from an ODbL licensed database. It’s like 
a printed map.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

Assuming that we're taking about a physical object, I don't see how the
importer would have any obligations to do anything under copyright law,
database law, or contact law. That question preempts any ODbL analysis.



On Fri, Sep 11, 2020, 11:53 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 11. Sep 2020, at 20:46, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
>
> If you put the attribution in Polish for a map meant for display in
> Poland, and then later the map is moved to London (say, to a museum),
> that's also fine because attribution was reasonable given the context.
>
>
>
> it would be fine from the map maker‘s perspective, but not for the people
> that bring the map to London:
>
> 4.3 Notice for using output (Contents). Creating and Using a Produced Work
> does not require the notice in Section 4.2. However, if you Publicly Use a
> Produced Work, You must include a notice associated with the Produced Work
> reasonably calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses,
> interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that
> Content was obtained from the Database, Derivative Database, or the
> Database as part of a Collective Database, and that it is available under
> this License.
>
>
>
> you could easily fix this by adding attribution in a locally standard
> language.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Sep 2020, at 20:46, Kathleen Lu  wrote:
> 
> If you put the attribution in Polish for a map meant for display in Poland, 
> and then later the map is moved to London (say, to a museum), that's also 
> fine because attribution was reasonable given the context.


it would be fine from the map maker‘s perspective, but not for the people that 
bring the map to London:

4.3 Notice for using output (Contents). Creating and Using a Produced Work does 
not require the notice in Section 4.2. However, if you Publicly Use a Produced 
Work, You must include a notice associated with the Produced Work reasonably 
calculated to make any Person that uses, views, accesses, interacts with, or is 
otherwise exposed to the Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from the 
Database, Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective 
Database, and that it is available under this License.



you could easily fix this by adding attribution in a locally standard language.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

"Reasonable" means that if you put the attribution in a language that most
people would expect, then it's fine, including at an airport in Poland. If
you put the attribution in Polish for a map meant for display in Poland,
and then later the map is moved to London (say, to a museum), that's also
fine because attribution was reasonable given the context.
If you are making a map for London and you start off by making it in
Polish, that would be really weird, but in the OSM context, since
"OpenStreetMap" is a name that doesn't change depending on the language,
it's still sufficient, since "OpenStreetMap" by itself is sufficient. (If
an organization like "Department of Geology" was the source of an ODbL
database, your language choice might have more of a bearing on
reasonableness depending on viewing context.)


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 9:34 AM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> 11 Sep 2020, 18:18 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 11. Sep 2020, at 13:21, Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> For example on my laser cut map I used
> "Dane z OpenStreetMap na licencji ODBL"
> as it will be used in way where Polish
> would be clearly expected to be
> understood
>
>
>
> will this limit the places where you can exhibit the work to Poland?
>
> Or more specifically to places where all people can be
> assumed to be able to understand
> Polish.
>
> It should be easy to find places in
> Poland where many do not understand
> Polish at all (airports for start).
>
> In this case it is a gift for a friend so it
> should be fine, I think.
>
> It would be interesting who would
> be in violation if that plywood piece would
> be displayed publicly in place where this
> assumption would not hold true.
>
> I am quite curious about answers but
> not enough to spend £€¥ on a lawyer.
>
> Or would it be sufficient attribution also for a display in e.g. London?
>
> Probably no, but I am not a lawyer,
> and also not someone able to answer
> is meaning clear for English-only speaker.
>
> So I am not certain but I assume that answer is "no".
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

11 Sep 2020, 18:18 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 11. Sep 2020, at 13:21, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> For example on my laser cut map I used
>> "Dane z OpenStreetMap na licencji ODBL"
>> as it will be used in way where Polish
>> would be clearly expected to be 
>> understood
>>
>
>
> will this limit the places where you can exhibit the work to Poland? 
>
Or more specifically to places where all people can be
assumed to be able to understand 
Polish.

It should be easy to find places in 
Poland where many do not understand
Polish at all (airports for start).
In this case it is a gift for a friend so it
should be fine, I think.

It would be interesting who would
be in violation if that plywood piece would
be displayed publicly in place where this
assumption would not hold true.

I am quite curious about answers butnot enough to spend £€¥ on a lawyer.
> Or would it be sufficient attribution also for a display in e.g. London?
>
Probably no, but I am not a lawyer,
and also not someone able to answer 
is meaning clear for English-only speaker.

So I am not certain but I assume that answer is "no".
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Sep 2020, at 13:21, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
>  wrote:
> 
> For example on my laser cut map I used
> "Dane z OpenStreetMap na licencji ODBL"
> as it will be used in way where Polish
> would be clearly expected to be 
> understood


will this limit the places where you can exhibit the work to Poland? Or would 
it be sufficient attribution also for a display in e.g. London?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Thanks Kathleen and Mateusz!

I will thank Ron for the change and try to start a dialog with our DWG
about AllTrails asking their users to contact the DWG directly with map
errors.

Mike

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 5:21 AM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> AFAIK such text should be perfectly fine
> as long as it is clear displayed
> (not deeply hidden in weird menu,
> not hidden behind basically never clicked
> buttons and so on).
>
> ODBL requires to make users aware of
> source and license, it does not mandate
> a specific text.
>
> For example on my laser cut map I used
> "Dane z OpenStreetMap na licencji ODBL"
> as it will be used in way where Polish
> would be clearly expected to be
> understood.
>
> 10 Sep 2020, 18:07 by talk@openstreetmap.org:
>
> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>
> It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
> you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
> if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
> Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
> data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
> him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
> directing data issues directly to the DWG.
>
> Yes, it's fine
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

AFAIK such text should be perfectly fine
as long as it is clear displayed
(not deeply hidden in weird menu,
not hidden behind basically never clicked
buttons and so on).
ODBL requires to make users aware of
source and license, it does not mandate
a specific text.

For example on my laser cut map I used
"Dane z OpenStreetMap na licencji ODBL"
as it will be used in way where Polish
would be clearly expected to be 
understood.
10 Sep 2020, 18:07 by talk@openstreetmap.org:

> [0] > https://www.alltrails.com/>  (in the search box enter the name of a 
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>
>> It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of 
>> you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know 
>> if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap 
>> Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map 
>> data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking 
>> him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails 
>> directing data issues directly to the DWG.
>>
>>
> Yes, it's fine 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

[0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
trail, park, or city to see their map.)

> It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
> you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
> if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
> Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
> data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
> him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
> directing data issues directly to the DWG.
>
> Yes, it's fine
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:02 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM
> without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they
> offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it
> appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I
> have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up
> in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
> Mike
>
> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>
It looks like AllTrails now correctly attributes OpenStreetMap.  Those of
you more familiar with the licensing might want to chime in and let me know
if simply stating "(c) OpenStreetMap" instead of "(c) OpenStreetMap
Contributors" is adequate (also, keep in mind that only some of their map
data comes from OSM).  If it is adequate, I will send Ron a note thanking
him, and starting the conversation between him and the DWG about AllTrails
directing data issues directly to the DWG.

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Simon Poole]

To add to what Andy has already said, complaints about people using
private paths etc are relatively common, not a large number in absolute
terms, but there tend to be a couple each month which either land with
the DWG, or LWG, or naturally with the local community (I've handled a
couple of them with a different hat on locally, but they are rare).

AllTrails is just one of a handful of sources for such issues. I suspect
that it is simply that such ways that are not part of the public road
network tend to be less stable and sometimes not as well surveyed that
makes this more likely to happen. On top of that right of way and access
legislation tends to differ widely among countries, and what is
completely OK in one may find you at the wrong end of a shotgun in
another and that AllTrails et al are not very good in reflecting that.
Example:  highway=track in the UK, which should probably default to
access=private, but here and say in DE, in general would always have
public access except if signposted differently or gated.

Simon

Am 22.08.2020 um 00:33 schrieb Martijn van Exel:
> Curious anecdote: some AllTrails user apparently looked up a phone
> number for OSM US and called up Maggie. Turns out the complaint was
> about a trail that I originally mapped *blush*. In my defense, that
> was 9 years ago, I haven't been to that part of town much since I
> moved, and nobody else updated the trail, which has since disappeared.
>
> Here is the changeset in case you're interested:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/89419938
>
> Martijn
>
> On 8/19/2020 3:44 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
>> Hey Mike,
>> They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you
>> found their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their
>> users edit OSM, they instead instruct them to email
>> d...@openstreetmap.org ,
>>
>> All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a
>> leadership team.
>>
>> Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.
>>
>>
>> [1]
>> https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson > > wrote:
>>
>>     Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their
>>     use of OSM without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM
>>     Map Layer" that they offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map
>>     Layer."  At the very least it appears that the trails on that
>>     layer come from OSM.  I know that because I have entered some
>>     rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up in
>>     AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
>>     Mike
>>
>>     [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name
>>     of a trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>>     ___
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>>     talk@openstreetmap.org 
>>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> @osm_washington
>> www.snowandsnow.us 
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>
>> ___
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Martijn van Exel]

Curious anecdote: some AllTrails user apparently looked up a phone 
number for OSM US and called up Maggie. Turns out the complaint was 
about a trail that I originally mapped *blush*. In my defense, that was 
9 years ago, I haven't been to that part of town much since I moved, and 
nobody else updated the trail, which has since disappeared.


Here is the changeset in case you're interested: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/89419938


Martijn

On 8/19/2020 3:44 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:

Hey Mike,
They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you 
found their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their 
users edit OSM, they instead instruct them to email 
d...@openstreetmap.org ,


All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a 
leadership team.


Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.


[1] 
https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-


On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson > wrote:


Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their
use of OSM without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM
Map Layer" that they offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map
Layer."  At the very least it appears that the trails on that
layer come from OSM.  I know that because I have entered some
rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up in
AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
Mike

[0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name
of a trail, park, or city to see their map.)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Andy Townsend]

On 20/08/2020 14:43, Mike Thompson wrote:
From Ron's quick and positive response to the attribution issue I am 
guessing he might be open to having a discussion about these other 
issues. Once the attribution issue is actually fixed, should I send 
him a note along those lines? Would you (Andy) be the appropriate 
contact for that discussion?


Yes, that'd be great, and I'd be happy to be involved in any discussions.

The https://www.openstreetmap.org/fixthemap landing page is probably the 
best one right now for "the map is wrong" questions (better than 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/help in this instance I'd suggest).  I'm 
not aware of any wiki page that explains the whole "OpenStreetMap 
contains all sorts of information, including private roads, and it's up 
to mapmakers to display information appropriately to their users" thing, 
but I could be wrong.


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Andrew Harvey]

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 at 11:11, Andy Townsend  wrote:

>
> Indeed, and by the time they get to us they are usually "rabbits of
> negative euphoria"* because of the less than stellar support experience
> they've had at AllTrails.
>
> Looking at e.g.
> https://www.alltrails.com/explore/list/yorkshire-wolds-way?b_tl_lat=54.06089919948305_tl_lng=-0.7765960693359375_br_lat=53.9918264806059_br_lng=-0.6293106079101562
> I'm not surprised - to my eyes that really is a crime against cartography.
> Zoom in, and you'll see that that useful-looking north-south path just
> southeast of Thixendale is actually marked "(PRIVATE)", but at any scale
> you might want to plan a route on it isn't.
>
> The explanation we have to give every time goes something along the lines
> of:
>
>- No, we're not Alltrails support, and can't directly affect the way
>that their map represents things.
>- Yes, it's perfectly normal for the OpenStreetMap database to include
>ways along which there is limited access (such as only the householder, or
>perhaps other people in an emergency).
>- Individual maps can choose what data to show and what not, and if a
>map does a poor job of it that's really not an OpenStreetMap problem.
>- While we'd love you to update OpenStreetMap yourself** (since you
>know your local area better than we do) we're more than happy to try and
>fix the OSM data if it's wrong - but we can't guarantee when (or even if)
>any particular OSM-based map will show the changes.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy (from the Data Working Group)
>
> * not a happy bunny
>
> ** I'd also, if it seems that it might help, try and introduce them to the
> local OSM community.
>

With my DWG hat on, my view is the data working group should be for
resolving conflicts and helping deal with harmful edits or people acting in
bad faith, not as a "the map is wrong please fix it for me" service. If
there is something wrong on the map, generally people should be first
directed to edit in OSM or if they are not comfortable by adding a note,
not asking DWG to get involved in mapping.

AllTrails support team are directing people who are reporting issues with
OSM data to DWG directly, but instead I'd prefer they direct people to
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide or some other
landing page for prospective mappers.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 7:11 PM Andy Townsend  wrote:

>
> On 19/08/2020 22:44, Clifford Snow wrote:
>
> ...  Instead of suggesting their users edit OSM, they instead instruct
> them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,
>
>
> Indeed, and by the time they get to us they are usually "rabbits of
> negative euphoria"* because of the less than stellar support experience
> they've had at AllTrails.
>
> Looking at e.g.
> https://www.alltrails.com/explore/list/yorkshire-wolds-way?b_tl_lat=54.06089919948305_tl_lng=-0.7765960693359375_br_lat=53.9918264806059_br_lng=-0.6293106079101562
> I'm not surprised - to my eyes that really is a crime against cartography.
> Zoom in, and you'll see that that useful-looking north-south path just
> southeast of Thixendale is actually marked "(PRIVATE)", but at any scale
> you might want to plan a route on it isn't.
>
> The explanation we have to give every time goes something along the lines
> of:
>
>- No, we're not Alltrails support, and can't directly affect the way
>that their map represents things.
>- Yes, it's perfectly normal for the OpenStreetMap database to include
>ways along which there is limited access (such as only the householder, or
>perhaps other people in an emergency).
>- Individual maps can choose what data to show and what not, and if a
>map does a poor job of it that's really not an OpenStreetMap problem.
>- While we'd love you to update OpenStreetMap yourself** (since you
>know your local area better than we do) we're more than happy to try and
>fix the OSM data if it's wrong - but we can't guarantee when (or even if)
>any particular OSM-based map will show the changes.
>
> From Ron's quick and positive response to the attribution issue I am
guessing he might be open to having a discussion about these other issues.
Once the attribution issue is actually fixed, should I send him a note
along those lines? Would you (Andy) be the appropriate contact for that
discussion?

Mike
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/08/2020 22:44, Clifford Snow wrote:
...  Instead of suggesting their users edit OSM, they instead instruct 
them to email d...@openstreetmap.org ,



Indeed, and by the time they get to us they are usually "rabbits of 
negative euphoria"* because of the less than stellar support experience 
they've had at AllTrails.


Looking at e.g. 
https://www.alltrails.com/explore/list/yorkshire-wolds-way?b_tl_lat=54.06089919948305_tl_lng=-0.7765960693359375_br_lat=53.9918264806059_br_lng=-0.6293106079101562 
I'm not surprised - to my eyes that really is a crime against 
cartography.  Zoom in, and you'll see that that useful-looking 
north-south path just southeast of Thixendale is actually marked 
"(PRIVATE)", but at any scale you might want to plan a route on it isn't.


The explanation we have to give every time goes something along the 
lines of:


 * No, we're not Alltrails support, and can't directly affect the way
   that their map represents things.
 * Yes, it's perfectly normal for the OpenStreetMap database to include
   ways along which there is limited access (such as only the
   householder, or perhaps other people in an emergency).
 * Individual maps can choose what data to show and what not, and if a
   map does a poor job of it that's really not an OpenStreetMap problem.
 * While we'd love you to update OpenStreetMap yourself** (since you
   know your local area better than we do) we're more than happy to try
   and fix the OSM data if it's wrong - but we can't guarantee when (or
   even if) any particular OSM-based map will show the changes.

Best Regards,

Andy (from the Data Working Group)

* not a happy bunny

** I'd also, if it seems that it might help, try and introduce them to 
the local OSM community.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

I have already heard back from the CEO of AllTrails.  See his response
below.  They are going to fix the issue. I am impressed!

=
Thanks for the note, Mike. I know that this is going to sound lame but I
swear it's the truth, and that's that you found a bug on our website. There
should totally be an attribution block at the bottom and we'll get that
fixed up ASAP.

All the best,
Ron
=



On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 4:37 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 20. Aug 2020, at 00:18, Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
> Thanks for the link where they mention OSM.  I did find their CEO on
> Linkedin, and just sent him this message:
>
>
>
> thank you! You may also consider adding them here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
> to keep track of the case.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Aug 2020, at 00:18, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the link where they mention OSM.  I did find their CEO on 
> Linkedin, and just sent him this message:


thank you! You may also consider adding them here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
to keep track of the case.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Steve,

Thanks for the confirmation that the attribution is missing.  I will let
you, and the rest of the list, know if and when I hear from them.

Mike

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:51 PM stevea  wrote:

> Thanks very much you two:  I've often meant to do something about
> alltrails' seeming / actual lack of attribution to OSM (if it exists, I
> haven't found it either) and something always seems to creep up and prevent
> me from taking action.  These are most assuredly "our" (OSM's / mine,
> others in OSM) data.  Yea:  let's get this ball rolling and a proper OSM
> attribution!
>
> SteveA
> California
>
> > On Aug 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> > Hey Mike,
> > They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you
> found their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their users
> edit OSM, they instead instruct them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,
> >
> > All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a
> leadership team.
> >
> > Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.
> >
> >
> > [1]
> https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson 
> wrote:
> > Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of
> OSM without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that
> they offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very
> least it appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that
> because I have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and
> they show up in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
> > Mike
> >
> > [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
> 
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Mike Thompson]

Clifford,

Thanks for the link where they mention OSM.  I did find their CEO on
Linkedin, and just sent him this message:

==

Hi Ron, I noticed that AllTrails uses OSM data for its trails on the
default "AllTrails Map Layer", while you mention this fact on your site[0],
I didn't see any attribution on the map itself crediting OSM.  The map
should have some text on it such as "Trail data © OpenStreetMap
contributors"[1]

Thanks

Mike

OSM Contributor Specializing in Trails

==


There are several other members of the AllTrails leadership team on
LinkedIn, you might want to reach out to them too.


Mike





[0]
https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:44 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Hey Mike,
> They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you found
> their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their users edit
> OSM, they instead instruct them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,
>
> All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a
> leadership team.
>
> Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.
>
>
> [1]
> https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>> Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of
>> OSM without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that
>> they offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very
>> least it appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that
>> because I have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and
>> they show up in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
>> Mike
>>
>> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
>> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> www.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[stevea]

Thanks very much you two:  I've often meant to do something about alltrails' 
seeming / actual lack of attribution to OSM (if it exists, I haven't found it 
either) and something always seems to creep up and prevent me from taking 
action.  These are most assuredly "our" (OSM's / mine, others in OSM) data.  
Yea:  let's get this ball rolling and a proper OSM attribution!

SteveA
California

> On Aug 19, 2020, at 2:44 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> Hey Mike,
> They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you found 
> their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their users edit OSM, 
> they instead instruct them to email d...@openstreetmap.org, 
> 
> All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a leadership 
> team. 
> 
> Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.
> 
> 
> [1] 
> https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-
> 
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:
> Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM 
> without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they 
> offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it 
> appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I 
> have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up in 
> AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
> Mike
> 
> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a trail, 
> park, or city to see their map.)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM data without attribution

[Clifford Snow]

Hey Mike,
They definitely mention OSM, even call us a partner [1] but like you found
their basemap is definitely OSM. Instead of suggesting their users edit
OSM, they instead instruct them to email d...@openstreetmap.org,

All Trails is located in SF but I couldn't find any listing of a leadership
team.

Do you want to ask on Slack? Someone there might have a connection.


[1]
https://support.alltrails.com/hc/en-us/articles/360018930672-How-do-I-update-or-change-information-about-a-trail-

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:03 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Has anyone tried contacting the AllTrails[0] people about their use of OSM
> without attribution?  I am not talking about the "OSM Map Layer" that they
> offer, but rather the default "AllTrails Map Layer."  At the very least it
> appears that the trails on that layer come from OSM.  I know that because I
> have entered some rather obscure informal trails in OSMe, and they show up
> in AllTrails just as I entered them in OSM.
> Mike
>
> [0] https://www.alltrails.com/ (in the search box enter the name of a
> trail, park, or city to see their map.)
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>


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