Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

I typed "slums" in Google and looked at resulting numerous images of 
slums. I tried to imagine where to place street signs or block number 
plaques. Often the walls of shacks are made from a mixture of worn-out 
fabric, cardboard, corrugated iron.


Even if street signs are placed on poles, I am afraid these poles will 
be stolen and reused for building or improving a shack. At the same time 
there are quite a few multi-storey cabins, so just GPS coordinates or 
three words are not enough. The address should also contain somehow a 
floor number.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Morten Lange]

Hi,
1. Did anyone yet bring into this discussion the Japanese adresse system ? 
According to Wikipedia: "Street names are seldom used in postal addresses 
(except in Kyoto and some Hokkaidō cities such as Sapporo), and most Japanese 
streets do not have names.Banchi blocks often have an irregular shape, as 
banchi numbers were assigned by order of registration in the older system, 
meaning that especially in older areas of the city they will not run in a 
linear order. It is for this reason that when giving directions to a location, 
most people will offer cross streets, visual landmarks andsubway stations, such 
as "at Chūō-dori and Matsuya-dori across the street from Matsuya and Ginza 
station" for a store in Tokyo. In fact, many businesses have maps on their 
literature and business cards. In addition, signs attached to utility poles 
often specify the city district name and block number, and detailed block maps 
of the immediate area are sometimes posted near bus stops and train station 
exits.In addition to the address itself, all locations in Japan have a postal 
code. After the reform of 1998, this begins with a three-digit number, a 
hyphen, and a four-digit number, for example 123-4567. A postal mark, 〒, may 
precede the code to indicate that the number following is a postal code."

2. I also feel a need to reiterate that in Iceland there are formal postal 
addresses that work. The thing in the story that started this thread was the 
letter was sent from a guy/gal who did not bother to try write down the address 
(or lost it or only though of writing once they got home ).  And being a not 
very populous society, and especially a sparsely built area of Iceland, drawing 
a simple map and describing the people worked "flawlessly" :-)   A fun story 
and heartening, but if many would do the same and not research a bit before 
sending letters, if would not be fun any more ... especially if sending to 
someone more "anonymos"   ;-) 
 --  Regards / Kveðja / Hilsen Morten Lange, Reykjavík

  From: Andy Mabbett 
 To: "osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org"  
 Sent: Monday, 5 September 2016, 10:11
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map 
of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The 
postal service delivered!
   
On 30 August 2016 at 16:03, Iván Sánchez Ortega  wrote:

>> a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
>> affordable.

> Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
> on the sides of buildings?

The costs of surveying, allocating street names (while ensuring no
duplicates), allocating numbers to properties/ entrances, hosting a
lookup database, etc.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Andy Mabbett]

On 30 August 2016 at 16:03, Iván Sánchez Ortega  wrote:

>> a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
>> affordable.

> Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
> on the sides of buildings?

The costs of surveying, allocating street names (while ensuring no
duplicates), allocating numbers to properties/ entrances, hosting a
lookup database, etc.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Rory McCann]

Related to this, someone in Ireland is playing a game with the Irish
postal service (An Post), and seeing what sort of addresses they will
interpret.

   https://www.thejournal.ie/me-versus-an-post-2143603-Jun2015/
   http://meversusanpost.tumblr.com/

He's posted a mobius strip, crossword puzzle, and sliding puzzle.


On 30/08/16 15:44, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share_source=link
> 
> 
> I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
> because the system with the street name signs and the house number
> plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
> lightning, etc.
> 
> Here is this place on the OSM map:
> 
> http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=
> 
> It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
> Icelandic language).
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 31/08/16 10:03, Maarten Deen wrote:


How did people manage before the age of smartphones, accurate GPS and 
free maps?


Regards,
Maarten
Felix Dellatre, a German who lives in Managua, told in his presentation 
"Community mapping in Nicaragua" at the OSM US conference in San 
Francisco in 2013, that people do not come after dark because of the 
risk of being lost. They cannot go to the cinema, theater, courses, etc.


He also said that the absence of address system makes it impossible to 
call police or ambulance, and as a result local informal "authorities" 
emerge which try to establish a semblance of an order. He told that 
addresses are given is such a way as: "make four hundred steps to the 
north from the place of a burnt church, and ask Miguel".


Please, note than both Nicaragua and especially Brasil are relatively 
well-to-do countries with stable central authorities. You may look at 
the maps of the cities of many other countries and see that a lot of 
areas do not have street names at all and will never have them. The 
current system of street names and house numbers is not scalable, and it 
is not suitable for the whole world. The same as say, excuse me, a flush 
toilet system, which is common in Europe and North America, and yet it 
is absolutely not applicable for many other places. You may see this 
excellent BBC documentary "The Toilet An unspoken History" about it: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZHm3vkavgM .


I am sorry for this a bit too strong example, but it illustrates well 
that not all things to which we are accustomed are applicable elsewhere, 
especially in a places with scarce resources.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 31 ago 2016, alle ore 09:39, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see three Rua 
> C, four Rua A (Rua means Street in Portuguese).


first it wouldn't harm to get a tiny bit more creative when choosing the street 
names and second this is where post codes come into play 


> Without a central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.


there is a central authority in Brazil, there are very few places without any 
kind of central authority 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Maarten Deen]

On 2016-08-31 09:39, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:

On 31/08/16 07:54, Andreas Vilén wrote:



Imo it's better to let these areas choose their own (classic)
addresses and then report these to the authorities.

/Andreas

 It looks like they are trying to do exactly this. Here is a map of a
part of Rio de Janeiro in Brasil: http://osm.org/go/OVcch3Alh- .

But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see
three _Rua C_, four _Rua A_ (Rua means Street in Portuguese). Without
a central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.


These look to be gated communities. Like here:


Condominio Barao da Taquara

So the address would be something like Rua E., Condominio Barao da 
Taquara, Rio de Janeiro.



I heard that in such areas of a city a smartphone is a basic
necessity, because if one leaves home when it is dark outside it is
difficult to find way back as there are no street signs, and one may
realistically get lost till dawn.


How did people manage before the age of smartphones, accurate GPS and 
free maps?


Regards,
Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 31/08/16 07:54, Andreas Vilén wrote:
"frame;lock;door" hmm... or was it "frame;lock;window"? ---> mail gets 
delivered to the other side of the world. If you write "Main street 
15" instead of "Main street 13" it will probably get delivered 
correctly anyway as long as the name is correct.


Also, tell people who are supposed to deliver mail in the favelas of 
Brazil to constantly wear a smartphone around their neck and you will 
see very few people willing to do that work...


Imo it's better to let these areas choose their own (classic) 
addresses and then report these to the authorities.


/Andreas
It looks like they are trying to do exactly this. Here is a map of a 
part of Rio de Janeiro in Brasil: http://osm.org/go/OVcch3Alh- .


But this approach is not scalable, - even on this map you can see three 
/Rua C/, four /Rua A/ (Rua means Street in Portuguese). Without a 
central authority it will end up in numerous duplicates.


I heard that in such areas of a city a smartphone is a basic necessity, 
because if one leaves home when it is dark outside it is difficult to 
find way back as there are no street signs, and one may realistically 
get lost till dawn.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Andreas Vilén]

"frame;lock;door" hmm... or was it "frame;lock;window"? ---> mail gets
delivered to the other side of the world. If you write "Main street 15"
instead of "Main street 13" it will probably get delivered correctly anyway
as long as the name is correct.

Also, tell people who are supposed to deliver mail in the favelas of Brazil
to constantly wear a smartphone around their neck and you will see very few
people willing to do that work...

Imo it's better to let these areas choose their own (classic) addresses and
then report these to the authorities.

/Andreas

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> I am going to say this very quietly what3words
>
>
>
>
> On 2016-08-30 19:12, Florian Lohoff wrote:
>
>
> Hola,
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
>
> Warning: flame thread about to start.
>
> El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
>
> It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> affordable.
>
>
> Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting
> letters
> on the sides of buildings?
>
>
> http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-
> initiative.html
> http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/
> addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
> http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/
> addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf
>
> Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and
> goals.
>
> Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim
> copyright
> on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the
> claimed "public good"
> of addressing.
>
> I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
> currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.
>
> Flo
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[john whelan]

>When MP3 appeared it immediately became clear that the era of CD is over.

No, anyone who listens to Classical music will tell you they are not the
same thing at all.

John

On 30 August 2016 at 17:05, Oleksiy Muzalyev 
wrote:

> On 30/08/16 20:12, Stefano wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale :
>
>> I am going to say this very quietly what3words
>>
>>
>
> IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words
> http://www.what3ikea.com/
>
> /s
>
> Cheers,
> Stefano
>
> These all are good tries, however it should be something like MP3. When
> MP3 appeared it immediately became clear that the era of CD is over. Or a
> Cartesian coordinate system. For two thousand years the dot was considered
> as a final indivisible entity, an axiom. Until René Descartes split the dot
> in two coordinates x and y. Now it seems to be obvious, but at that time
> Isaac Newton had to reread Descartes' La Géométrie, where this idea was
> published, nine times. A Cartesian coordinate system was a ground-breaking
> idea.
>
> It is flying in the air, but it is not there yet. Perhaps, it requires a
> thinker like René Descartes to formulate, if it is doable at all.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 30/08/16 20:12, Stefano wrote:



2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale >:


I am going to say this very quietly what3words


IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words
http://www.what3ikea.com/

/s

Cheers,
Stefano
These all are good tries, however it should be something like MP3. When 
MP3 appeared it immediately became clear that the era of CD is over. Or 
a Cartesian coordinate system. For two thousand years the dot was 
considered as a final indivisible entity, an axiom. Until René Descartes 
split the dot in two coordinates x and y. Now it seems to be obvious, 
but at that time Isaac Newton had to reread Descartes' La Géométrie, 
where this idea was published, nine times. A Cartesian coordinate system 
was a ground-breaking idea.


It is flying in the air, but it is not there yet. Perhaps, it requires a 
thinker like René Descartes to formulate, if it is doable at all.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Maurizio Napolitano]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Stefano  wrote:
>
>
> 2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale :
>>
>> I am going to say this very quietly what3words
>>
>>
>
>
> IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words
> http://www.what3ikea.com/

don't forget:
most of the names of the ikea's products are name of locations in
Sweden or Norway (the others come from names of people, flowers,
animals ...)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El martes, 30 de agosto de 2016 19:10:15 (CEST) Craig Wallace escribió:
> If you want to use a postcode/coordinate system, there are plenty of
> better options.
> eg Open Location Codes (Plus Codes). https://plus.codes/

Or www.what3fucks.com.


-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega  

http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
@RealIvanSanchez

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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Have you shared your idea with USPS? Let's all use lat/lon and scrap all
> that silly business with street names and zip codes.


Having hauled mail, I would occasionally come across something addressed by
latitude/longitude and we'd have to make an educated guess (but as others
have pointed out, don't exactly have the time or the motivation to care
about accuracy).  Hence zip codes aren't about the public's convenience,
but the mail haulers.  The postal service can figure out a latitude and
longitude (and they sort of have to if there's no actual street address,
which happens).  But, largely thanks to magazine contests before the rule
came in place in the US (and thus the postal service would have to figure
out where it was trying to go no matter how long it took) trying to figure
out just how to make something undeliverable, the postal service is "best
effort" if you're not conforming to postal standards.

That said, properly wrap your mail ('FRAGILE' doesn't mean anything to the
postal service, assume your package is going to get on the bottom of a 1400
pound pallette of mail with something heavy and pointed on top if you want
it to survive; there's no such thing as overprotecting your contents if you
want it there in one piece).  The postal service can work with a name and a
missile address.  The postal service can work with a name and a zip code if
it's rural enough.  But, and I don't even do that line of work anymore, if
you pull shit like mail a gallon of milk unprotected and without a
cooler...I hate you.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[john whelan]

I think the long latitude is unfortunately well understand, groups nearby
places together and these days with word-processing and cut and paste not
that difficult to handle.

Unfortunately it doesn't have a check digit so if it's written with two
digits transposed you've had it.

Post offices depend on the address contain redundant information, a post
code can be misread or miswritten but if it has a street address as well it
stands a very good chance of being delivered.

I think the answer is to assist countries without addresses to one up with
a postcode town / village address that can be expanded to a house number at
a later date.

Difficult to remember?   Write it on a scrap of paper and pin it on the
wall.

Hopefully we can talk the Red Cross / World bank etc into doing some of
this sort of basic infrastructure work.

Cheerio John

On 30 Aug 2016 2:39 pm, "Colin Smale"  wrote:

> On 2016-08-30 20:25, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Colin Smale 
> wrote:
>
>> We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US.
>> It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a
>> large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery
>> driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out
>> Navmii for example).
>
>
> OK, then you seemed to miss the simple fact that, (gets out megaphone,
> aims directly at Colin's head) NOBODY USES W3W BUT ALMOST EVERYONE KNOWS
> LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE.
>
>
> OK you win Paul, put away your megaphone and gather your toys up off the
> ground. After all remembering two 7-digit floating point numbers is much
> easier than remembering three words to the average person in these
> underdeveloped areas. It must be my brain's off-day. Have you shared your
> idea with USPS? Let's all use lat/lon and scrap all that silly business
> with street names and zip codes. What's not to like?
>
> Oh, and tell all these people they are stupid as well
> http://what3words.com/using-what3words/delivery-ecommerce/
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-08-30 20:25, Paul Johnson wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>> We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US. 
>> It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a 
>> large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery 
>> driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out 
>> Navmii for example).
> 
> OK, then you seemed to miss the simple fact that, (gets out megaphone, aims 
> directly at Colin's head) NOBODY USES W3W BUT ALMOST EVERYONE KNOWS LATITUDE 
> AND LONGITUDE.

OK you win Paul, put away your megaphone and gather your toys up off the
ground. After all remembering two 7-digit floating point numbers is much
easier than remembering three words to the average person in these
underdeveloped areas. It must be my brain's off-day. Have you shared
your idea with USPS? Let's all use lat/lon and scrap all that silly
business with street names and zip codes. What's not to like? 

Oh, and tell all these people they are stupid as well 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the US.
> It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently is a
> large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US delivery
> driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w (check out
> Navmii for example).


OK, then you seemed to miss the simple fact that, (gets out megaphone, aims
directly at Colin's head) NOBODY USES W3W BUT ALMOST EVERYONE KNOWS
LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/08/2016 19:10, Paul Johnson wrote:


I swear to god we've been over this...


Surely the natural conclusion is a "what3osmtalkthreads" - something 
like "your address is 'sidewalks, imports, licensing' ..." :)


Cheers,

Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Colin Smale]

On 2016-08-30 20:10, Paul Johnson wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>> w3w solves the problem of you not having a (compact) answer to "what´s your 
>> address?" if you want to have something delivered. The fact that you only 
>> have to remember three words is for humans. But indeed the delivery person 
>> needs a computer.
> 
> I swear to god we've been over this... Not that it really helps when even in 
> the US, your average delivery driver's not going to make heads or tails of 
> purple,monkey,dishwasher in the first place, much less be able to sort it out 
> because their truck doesn't have a computer.

We have - that's why I am whispering. But w3w is not intended for the
US. It's for places which don't have addresses already, which apparently
is a large part of the world. And I would be surprised if even a US
delivery driver doesn't have a sat nav, which can easily deal with w3w
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Stefano]

2016-08-30 19:24 GMT+02:00 Colin Smale :

> I am going to say this very quietly what3words
>
>

IKEA furniture is more recognizable than english words
http://www.what3ikea.com/

/s

Cheers,
Stefano

>
>
> On 2016-08-30 19:12, Florian Lohoff wrote:
>
>
> Hola,
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
>
> Warning: flame thread about to start.
>
> El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
>
> It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> affordable.
>
>
> Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting
> letters
> on the sides of buildings?
>
>
> http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-
> initiative.html
> http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/
> addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
> http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/
> addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf
>
> Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and
> goals.
>
> Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim
> copyright
> on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the
> claimed "public good"
> of addressing.
>
> I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
> currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.
>
> Flo
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Craig Wallace]

On 2016-08-30 18:24, Colin Smale wrote:

I am going to say this very quietly what3words


Which forces you to use the what3words website, or an officially 
licensed app.


If you want to use a postcode/coordinate system, there are plenty of 
better options.

eg Open Location Codes (Plus Codes). https://plus.codes/
They are actually a free/open system, so can be used in other software etc.
And you can just use the first part, to refer to a larger block. Or 
shorten it, if you know part of the address.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> w3w solves the problem of you not having a (compact) answer to "what´s
> your address?" if you want to have something delivered. The fact that you
> only have to remember three words is for humans. But indeed the delivery
> person needs a computer.
>
I swear to god we've been over this... Not that it really helps when even
in the US, your average delivery driver's not going to make heads or tails
of purple,monkey,dishwasher in the first place, much less be able to sort
it out because their truck doesn't have a computer.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Colin Smale]

w3w solves the problem of you not having a (compact) answer to "what´s
your address?" if you want to have something delivered. The fact that
you only have to remember three words is for humans. But indeed the
delivery person needs a computer.

//colin 

On 2016-08-30 19:43, Florian Lohoff wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:24:02PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
>> I am going to say this very quietly what3words
> 
> I dont think what3words solves the issue of structured Addressing.
> 
> Addresses are typically strict hierarchical and offer some serious
> concepts you cant build with what3words.
> 
> "Fuzzy" or "Blurry" addresses - You cant express something like
> "between housenumber 5 and 10" or - "Across number 10 High Street".
> 
> Its exact in every aspect. 
> 
> Or a concept of "Naming all streets after birds in the north
> of the village and all streets after mammals on the south"
> every child can tell you the direction to walk and from the
> Name you get a rough guess where to head to.
> 
> When you tell them where is "allgemein.ausfüllen.fahrpreis" everybody
> will look a little confused.
> 
> What3Words is not made for humans, its made for Machines.
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_add
> ress_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share_source=link
>
> I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
> because the system with the street name signs and the house number plaques
> is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated lightning, etc.
>
> Here is this place on the OSM map:
>
> http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=
>
> It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
> Icelandic language).
>

This is how you register to vote in Oklahoma if your location doesn't yet
have a formal address.  Mail will get there eventually but it might take a
little bit of sleuthing on the part of an overworked postman, so until
they're used to it, expect mail to arrive with a pretty brutal delay.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Florian Lohoff]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 07:24:02PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
> I am going to say this very quietly what3words

I dont think what3words solves the issue of structured Addressing.

Addresses are typically strict hierarchical and offer some serious
concepts you cant build with what3words.

"Fuzzy" or "Blurry" addresses - You cant express something like
"between housenumber 5 and 10" or - "Across number 10 High Street".

Its exact in every aspect. 

Or a concept of "Naming all streets after birds in the north
of the village and all streets after mammals on the south"
every child can tell you the direction to walk and from the
Name you get a rough guess where to head to.

When you tell them where is "allgemein.ausfüllen.fahrpreis" everybody
will look a little confused.

What3Words is not made for humans, its made for Machines.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
 UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away


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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Colin Smale]

I am going to say this very quietly what3words

On 2016-08-30 19:12, Florian Lohoff wrote:

> Hola,
> 
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: Warning: 
> flame thread about to start.
> 
> El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió: It is 
> clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> affordable. 
> Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters 
> on the sides of buildings?

http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-initiative.html
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf

Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and
goals.

Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both
claim copyright
on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to
the claimed "public good"
of addressing. 

I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the
billions
currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.

Flo 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Florian Lohoff]

Hola,

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 05:03:39PM +0200, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:
> Warning: flame thread about to start.
> 
> El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
> > It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> > number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> > where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> > affordable.
> 
> Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters 
> on the sides of buildings?

http://www.upu.int/en/activities/addressing/addressing-the-world-initiative.html
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureWhitePaperEn.pdf
http://www.upu.int/fileadmin/documentsFiles/activities/addressingAssistance/brochureAddressingTheWorldEn.pdf

Although i think the Upu has some serious conflicts in their members and goals.

Deutsche Post and British Postal Service are both members, and both claim 
copyright
on the postcode database. So the members of the UPU do not conform to the 
claimed "public good"
of addressing. 

I think OSM could be a major piece in generating addresses for the billions
currently unaddressed - still - its a huge task.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
 UTF-8 Test: The  ran after a , but the  ran away


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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 30.08.2016 17:03, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

... Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters
on the sides of buildings?

...


If it were as simple as this. An address, currently a street name and 
house number, is to be present in a property title, so it should be 
unambiguous and recognized legally. Besides, streets could be renamed 
from time to time due to changing political moods. Letters painted with 
a cheap paint fade quickly under the sun light. There is an issue of 
illegal construction, - there are cities where about half of an urban 
agglomeration may be an illegal slum. And so on and so forth. So it is 
an expensive system which requires maintenance and enforcing.



Though you may be right, - maybe it is not possible to invent anything 
better than a system of addresses based on street names and house 
numbers. May be it is the final system, where the human ingenuity 
reached the Wall of Physical Laws, and no other progress is possible.



I just saw this envelope with the map, and it was something new and 
original.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

Warning: flame thread about to start.



El tirsdag 30. august 2016 16.50.14 CEST Oleksiy Muzalyev escribió:
> It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing
> number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas,
> where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not
> affordable.

Oh for fucks sake. Tell me what's not affordable about spray-painting letters 
on the sides of buildings?


> The majority of people do not have any addresses and will
> never have them, unless something better is invented, - a 
> robust universal system based on physical laws.

That's a huge false dichotomy. You're implying that there is *one* *only* way 
to improve un-addresable dwellings.


> Sometimes dwellers may have smartphones but not addresses.

And sometimes they have names of things in paper maps and street signs, but no 
power. Duh.




-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega   



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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

It is clear that in Iceland there are street signs. However, a growing 
number of people on Earth is living in slums [1] or slum-like areas, 
where a classical system of addresses from the 19th century is not 
affordable. The majority of people do not have any addresses and will 
never have them, unless something better is invented, - a robust 
universal system based on physical laws. Sometimes dwellers may have 
smartphones but not addresses.

[1] http://www.who.int/gho/urban_health/en/

On 30.08.2016 16:25, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
The actual address to that farm would be much shorter even, Hólar, 
Búðardal.


Simple phone book lookup gives us this 
https://ja.is/?q=h%C3%B3lar%20b%C3%BA%C3%B0ardal (here Hólar has been 
changed to dative case Hólum).


Probably you'll find a small sign by the driveway to the farm at the 
main road with the farm name, thats about it for signage in rural areas.



Þann 30.08.2016 13:44, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share_source=link 



I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
because the system with the street name signs and the house number
plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
lightning, etc.

Here is this place on the OSM map:

http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=

It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
Icelandic language).



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Re: [OSM-talk] Without an address, an Icelandic tourist drew this map of the intended location (Búðardalur) and surroundings on the envelope. The postal service delivered!

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

The actual address to that farm would be much shorter even, Hólar, 
Búðardal.


Simple phone book lookup gives us this 
https://ja.is/?q=h%C3%B3lar%20b%C3%BA%C3%B0ardal (here Hólar has been 
changed to dative case Hólum).


Probably you'll find a small sign by the driveway to the farm at the 
main road with the farm name, thats about it for signage in rural areas.



Þann 30.08.2016 13:44, Oleksiy Muzalyev reit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/50a5pk/without_an_address_an_icelandic_tourist_drew_this/?ref=share_source=link

I never saw this type of addressing on an envelope. It is interesting
because the system with the street name signs and the house number
plaques is very expensive, requires a lot of service, dedicated
lightning, etc.

Here is this place on the OSM map:

http://osm.org/go/e1DQElSx--?m=

It took just several seconds to find it (even without knowledge of the
Icelandic language).


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