Re: Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
On 12 March 2012, 19:34, Paul Van Noord wrote: Hi Geoff, On 3/12/2012 Geoff Lane wrote: GL I'm sorry that you feel frustrated. However, while I'm glad of all the GL support that I can get when I need it, I don't take too kindly to GL vendors putting me down -- and I suspect that there are others who GL feel the same way. My post was in no way meant as a personal attack. GL Rather, it was meant to be constructive; to help you and others GL provide better service. FWIW, I would not have made my post if I GL didn't then believe that you were representing Ritlabs or a reseller GL in some official capacity. Hmm... Maybe this is a better example of a put down: You are arrogant, self-centered and do not have a clue... This is meant to be constructive to help you to treat people with respect.~~~ Although you don't know me, you might well be correct. So I'll thank you for your comment and receive it with the spirit in which I infer it was meant. That said, there is a fine line between valid comment and personal attack. I took great care to explain that I was merely pointing out that what Marek wrote probably didn't come out quite the way he meant. Something you conveniently omitted by taking one part of my post out of context. I'll quote the bit you missed below for your convenience: GL I did see your message in entirety. Except for the last two GL paragraphs, it was excellent. That's why I thought that the no GL wasn't meant the way it came out. Perhaps something along the GL lines of, Because of the way TB! handles headers, what you want GL is not possible. might have been better, but a blunt, no is at GL best terse IMO and possibly rude. Now I'm not getting at you GL personally, just explaining that how others interpreted your words GL might not have been what you meant. Since Marek gave the impression that he represented Ritlabs, and since another Ritlabs agent made a similar error when he replied to my earlier email query, I felt it in Ritlab's interest to point out that those remarks could cause offence. It's not in a business's interest to offend it's potential customers. I suspect that a lot of people join TUBDL because they're trialling the software, and such errors might cost Ritlabs their custom. As I wrote, you don't know me. However, know that I have a reasonable amount of experience with localisation issues from which I know that well-intended words can sometimes cause considerable offence. This can happen even between countries whose native tongues are different dialects of the same language. If I've offended you, I apologize. The offence was not intentional. However, unlike Marek, I don't claim to represent anyone other than myself, and you are not my customer. Returning to your post: As I wrote, there is a fine line between valid comment and personal attack. Had you written that my post gave you the impression of arrogance, self-centeredness, and cluelessness, I would have no valid objection as you would have merely pointed out that my words gave that impression. However, you did not. Rather you commented directly upon my character, and so (intentionally or not) engaged in personal attack. Regards, -- Geoff Lane Cornwall, UK -- Using The Bat! v5.0.34 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Customer Service
Dear Geoff, @13-Mar-2012, 08:12 Geoff Lane [GL] in mid:1254644569.20120313081...@gjctech.co.uk said: Hmm... Maybe this is a better example of a put down: You are arrogant, self-centered and do not have a clue... This is meant to be constructive to help you to treat people with respect.~~~ GL Although you don't know me, you might well be correct. So I'll thank GL you for your comment and receive it with the spirit in which I infer GL it was meant. Actually - I think you may have missed the spirit completely. You have taken it as a personal comment when it was clearly and explicitly an example of a put down; informative to you as to what a *real* put down looks like. Now. To business. This list is a user to user peer support list. Sometimes people connected to RITlabs make comment here, but that is not relevant. Expert opinion is mostly what you get. Marek is a lively and useful contributor here; one of the experts whose opinion is valuable and should therefore be valued. Any opinion given here is given at the cost of personal free time - no reward is available. English is not Marek's first language and sometimes the words he may want to use to flowery up his approach may simply not be in his instant vocabulary. To seek to alienate him for what amounts to a hurried end of a reply, one in which he'd already been explicit and kind further up, is a clear personal attack AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON THIS LIST. Back down please - all of you. This thread is wildly off topic and the next post on it will be moderated and the topic officially closed. ... snip -- Cheers -- Marck D Pearlstone -- List moderator and fellow end user TB! v5.0.36.2 on Windows 7 6.1.7601 Service Pack 1 ' pgpd6StGfLwBu.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Customer Service
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:10 AM, Marck Pearlstone wrote: This list is a user to user peer support list. Sometimes people connected to RITlabs make comment here, but that is not relevant. 8 snip, snip 8 Thank you. Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
On 12 March 2012, 11:31, Roelof Otten wrote: Marek Mikus (Czech support of The Bat!): no Do I find such an answer a bit arrogant and so what'ish with regards to Bill's challenge? It's possible that you find it such, but Marek explained that it's an internal field and therefore it cannot be overwritten. I don't know what more you expect, but as moderator of this list I strongly suggest that you keep from personal attacks.~~~ FWIW, I didn't take those words to be personal attack. Don't forget that this is an international forum, even though it is conducted in English. It's very easy to offend even when the language is your native tongue, and even more so when it's someone else's. I assume from Marek's signature block, that he or she is acting as an official representative of Ritlabs or one of their resellers. FWIW, I interpreted Marek's no as blunt and a bit of a put-down. I suspect that Marek didn't actually mean it that way, but even so it's not what I would expect from a customer service representative. So I read the post to which you've taken objection as merely pointing this out. IOW, not a personal attack but a comment about a particular instance of poor customer service that would apply no matter which agent made that remark. FWIW, I suspect that this lack of decent customer service might be rife within Ritlabs from the response I received when I asked by email whether I qualified for a cost upgrade from v1 to v5. Although the reply I received told me what I wanted to know, it also contained an abrupt remark telling me that next time I must register on the web site and use the dedicated form to contact the support team. I have to ask why Ritlabs provide a sales support email address if they don't want us to use it! BTW, that response nearly cost Ritlabs my custom as it prompted me to seriously investigate Thunderbird as an alternative and I would have gone for that if I could have easily migrated all my mail folders and sorting office rules. Personally, I think that St - Musaic.Net was doint Ritlabs a favour by making his post, as that should alert them to the issue of poor customer service and permit them to do something about it. JMHO, -- Geoff Lane Cornwall, UK -- Using The Bat! v5.0.34 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
Hello all, well, it is really frustrating to see, how thankful users are, if somebody reply them on sunday's night... Yes, i am working for reseller, but I have nothing from You or anybody in this user2user forum and it is my leisure time I am spending here. FWIW, I interpreted Marek's no as blunt and a bit of a put-down. hey, did You saw my message? Is there only no there? I have replied in 4 paragraphs and I have not found a solution, so I replied no in fourth of them. I suspect that Marek didn't actually mean it that way, but even so it's not what I would expect from a customer service representative. this is *not* official customer service but user2user forum, I am not representative of Ritlabs, they have their ticket system for registered users. -- Bye Marek Mikus Czech support of The Bat! http://www.thebat.cz Using the best The Bat! 5.0.36.2 under Windows 7 6.1 Build 7601 Service Pack 1 with MyMacros,XMP,AnotherMacros, AntispamSniper v 3.3.1.1 Notebook Thinkpad, Core2 Duo 2.40 GHz, 4 GB RAM Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
Hello Geoff, It's very easy to offend even when the language is your native tongue, and even more so when it's someone else's. Indeed I suspect that most of the problem stems from the fact that not many (if any) representatives of RIT are really comfortable reading and/or writing English. From the way things have been going with this list over the years I have to assume that none of them (ok, one exception comes to mind :-) ) are reading the list on a regular basis, much less writing here. One (and that includes myself) should not forget that while e.g. English and German are somewhat similar and moderatly easy to learn one way around or the other, the same may not be the case for other languages, specifically those of eastern Europe. If it is as big an effort for RITs to use English than it would be for me to use Russian, then I do understand why RIT is so undervoiced on this list, and why answers may be a bit on the terse side. -- Mit freundlichem Gruß Alto Speckhardt mailto:a...@treadstone79.de pgpHEoHAlTtQC.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
On 12 March 2012, 13:13, Marek Mikus wrote: well, it is really frustrating to see, how thankful users are, if somebody reply them on sunday's night... Yes, i am working for reseller, but I have nothing from You or anybody in this user2user forum and it is my leisure time I am spending here. I'm sorry that you feel frustrated. However, while I'm glad of all the support that I can get when I need it, I don't take too kindly to vendors putting me down -- and I suspect that there are others who feel the same way. My post was in no way meant as a personal attack. Rather, it was meant to be constructive; to help you and others provide better service. FWIW, I would not have made my post if I didn't then believe that you were representing Ritlabs or a reseller in some official capacity. Perhaps you'd consider modifying your From header and signature block to make it clear that your posts are personal rather than on behalf of a Ritlabs reseller? That way, people like me wouldn't make the mistake of taking your posts to be official Ritlabs response. FWIW, I interpreted Marek's no as blunt and a bit of a put-down. hey, did You saw my message? Is there only no there? I have replied in 4 paragraphs and I have not found a solution, so I replied no in fourth of them. I did see your message in entirety. Except for the last two paragraphs, it was excellent. That's why I thought that the no wasn't meant the way it came out. Perhaps something along the lines of, Because of the way TB! handles headers, what you want is not possible. might have been better, but a blunt, no is at best terse IMO and possibly rude. Now I'm not getting at you personally, just explaining that how others interpreted your words might not have been what you meant. I suspect that Marek didn't actually mean it that way, but even so it's not what I would expect from a customer service representative. this is *not* official customer service but user2user forum, I am not representative of Ritlabs, they have their ticket system for registered users.~~~ Again, perhaps it would help if you made it clear that you are not representing Ritlabs or its resellers when you post to this forum. I think my error regarding the status of your post was understandable considering that you claim to be, Czech support of The Bat! Nonetheless, I apologize if my error has caused you offence. I hope this better explains things, -- Geoff Lane Cornwall, UK -- Using The Bat! v5.0.34 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 3 Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
Roelof: I don't know what more you expect, but as moderator of this list I strongly suggest that you keep from personal attacks. It wasn't a personal attack - I don't know Marek. In my opinion a personal attack can encounter if you know someone and desperately disagree with him or her OR one is just trolling. When you say keep from personal attacks you choose to not see the hidden values of what was a rhetoric question. I find Geoff Lane's two postings on the matter to be exactly spot on. What he says is quite simply the answer to the question I fired off, though I might feel a bit differently about the following: Geoff: Personally, I think that St - Musaic.Net was doint Ritlabs a favour by making his post, as that should alert them to the issue of poor customer service and permit them to do something about it. Whether the support from RitLabs is poor or not, I don't know. But I would like to make clear that I have nothing against anyone on this list. I am not even involved enough to say I am usually disagreeing with this or that person. But I see that some are willing to help more often. Hence, there is no reason for me to strike an attack at anyone. BUT: I feel it is a mistake to post as [Language/Country] support of The Bat! without making it clear it is indeed - I quote Marek: *not* official customer service but user2user forum. Can you imagine unofficial people standing outside the Apple stand at Hannover Exhibition 2012 and present themselves as being support of [insert product]. Apple would have these people removed - simply! I hear you say - But TheBat! or Ritlabs is not Apple!. Excactly! And my point is NOT whether someone should be removed/banned/etc. That's far off from what I mean! What I am trying to say is it IS that much more difficult to catch that [Language/Country] support of The Bat! for NOT being official when RitLabs is not objecting to the use of [Language/ Country] support of The Bat!. What do RitLabs conveniently allow for and agree with? I'd call that Semi-Official, at least. I think it comes down to it doesn't mean what you say, but what people understand. Marek: well, it is really frustrating to see, how thankful users are, if somebody reply them on sunday's night [snip] it is my leisure time I am spending here. I don't think people are unthankful per se! But can you see that IF you appear as Czech support of The Bat! with even the companion web site http://www.thebat.cz in your signature - can you see that people are not seeing this as being leisure time? With that in mind, Geoff's view regarding no as blunt and a bit of a put-down is exactly my point. And Geoff followed up with: Geoff: Perhaps [you could have written] something along the lines of, Because of the way TB! handles headers, what you want is not possible. might have been better, but a blunt, no is at best terse IMO and possibly rude. I fully agree to this - it's the essence of my rhetoric question: Do I find such an answer a bit arrogant and so what'ish with regards to Bill's challenge? and paired with Czech support of The Bat!. -- St - Musaic.Net mailto:listen2rea...@musaic.net Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: Customer Service (was: How to get rid of the X-Priority field)
3/12/2012 3:28 PM Hi Geoff, On 3/12/2012 Geoff Lane wrote: GL I'm sorry that you feel frustrated. However, while I'm glad of all the GL support that I can get when I need it, I don't take too kindly to GL vendors putting me down -- and I suspect that there are others who GL feel the same way. My post was in no way meant as a personal attack. GL Rather, it was meant to be constructive; to help you and others GL provide better service. FWIW, I would not have made my post if I GL didn't then believe that you were representing Ritlabs or a reseller GL in some official capacity. Hmm... Maybe this is a better example of a put down: You are arrogant, self-centered and do not have a clue... This is meant to be constructive to help you to treat people with respect. - -- Paul The Bat! v.4.2.44.2 on Windows 7 Pro 64 bit 6.1.7601 No IMAP No OTFE Current version is 4.2.42 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
