Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Johannes, I owe you a beer ;) At first I didn't realize that you aren't located in Germany. I was talking with my own experience in mind, which is the 100% digital phone network in Europe. As you can get ISDN in every (!!) lost corner around here, Really!? Are you sure? Can you get ISDN in, say, Kosovo, or Poland? I think they are part of Europe, too. (If the answer is yes, then I envy you Europeans.) thus having digital lines for POTS as well, you will always at least get 33,6kbps, which equals 4,2kb w/o compression. H, that's not "digital lines", I'm afraid. -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi there Ming-Li, Am 10.08.2000 so gegen 10:57 meintest Du: Really!? Are you sure? Can you get ISDN in, say, Kosovo, or Poland? I think they are part of Europe, too. (If the answer is yes, then I envy you Europeans.) In Poland, yes, they have the same E-DSS1 as we (means you can buy equipment in Germany and use it in Poland, the same for France, England.). Kosovo. Mhhh :) I know they have Internet, especially the western soldiers that are down there. I know as well (from the number of bounces on another ML *g*) that Serbia has/had Internet. I don't think you can compare Kosovo. There was war. There's no infrastructure. Take Greece, or Croatia or so on... H, that's not "digital lines", I'm afraid. The german telephone network is 100% digital since 1996. Cheers, Johannesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T after you. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi there Thomas, Am 10.08.2000 so gegen 05:55 meintest Du: Anytime. :-) Gimme a call when you're back in good old Germany ;) Remember 2400bps? Those were the times... g Uhhh. I started with a really old 14,4k back in 1995... No, what I mean is, it depends of the inormation content. If a message has 1.2K without the s/mime and is blown up by 300% for the signature, it's not nomral. If a message has 10K of information, that's OK. Mhhh. Perhaps :) But as now S/MIME is part of TB, it's usual and will get heavily used on these support lists. Cheers, Johannesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi there Thomas, Am 10.08.2000 so gegen 05:26 meintest Du: Go to www.egroups.com and look for a group called "tbot". I just subscribed, thanks ;) I'd say we move the thread over there... Cheers, Johannesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- A real person has two reasons for doing anything ... a good reason and the real reason. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Johannes, On 10 August 2000 at 15:15:52 GMT +0200 (which was 14:15 where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject of "OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)": No, what I mean is, it depends of the inormation content. If a message has 1.2K without the s/mime and is blown up by 300% for the signature, it's not nomral. If a message has 10K of information, that's OK. JMP Mhhh. Perhaps :) But as now S/MIME is part of TB, it's usual and will JMP get heavily used on these support lists. It won't. As Wolfgang has been trying to explain to you, it has become a moderatorial decision that S/MIME signatures in their current form (which incorporates the key) constitute attachments which are not permitted on TBUDL and only permitted on TBBETA for test and demonstration purposes (and then only when within reason and of a reasonable size). OTOH PGP signatures are less inflationary and are permitted. Anyone ignoring these restrictions repeatedly will be barred from the list. Have I made the position clearer? -- Cheers, .\\arck Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY *--- | Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 S/N 14F4B4B2 | under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 *--- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hi there Thomas, Am 08.08.2000 so gegen 12:16 meintest Du: In Germany, maybe. That's where my POP server is, yes. But my computer is in Taiwan. I have never, ever have had even 33.6K or any of the other speeds you're talking about, and it is mostly around 1K (that's at home, in downtown Taipei). If you don't believe me, please come here. I owe you a beer ;) At first I didn't realize that you aren't located in Germany. I was talking with my own experience in mind, which is the 100% digital phone network in Europe. As you can get ISDN in every (!!) lost corner around here, thus having digital lines for POTS as well, you will always at least get 33,6kbps, which equals 4,2kb w/o compression. To be honest I cannot really believe you only get 1kb (this would be a connect at *less* than 9600bps, which is what you get here when you're surfing with your GSM mobile)! Granted. But no reason to unnecessary blow up a message to 300% of it's original size with a 4K "signature". While I really don't want to insult you, what do you consider "normal" mail size? Don't forget 'bout the headers, too. Mail with 1k (normal cluster size) is not what I call normal. 4-6k, even 10k seems normal to me... Now I don't really sense the difference, I admit, as I have at home dualchannel ISDN flat and at work a T1... Cheers, Johannesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - -- Immortality -- a fate worse than death. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.3 Comment: Freiheit stirbt in kleinen Stücken iQEVAwUBOZGecAt4MvNz1i1BAQFRqAgApInkAxtEBussqjzpbpZAUYqfFIuR92Or 5x6mbLemSN/OdxYFcpJZieuU9ia6Z/8eUZcndpfuFXef6+G3Qx4kfZvGejnFsACa NyNz0yrw7slmwbzX9RHGTYvwgRow6oiyN+KMfmd878+aXAfGOGw5ThvsJtsmoMZX 3q9jL6Sy7ZjyStnkGWGO5pBDjYuud65WQ4Yb1rJqDN7EJZ62PhbBZ7/9xsjyyDee iSc6qoNkuB2eNbDfSYX0gtAX/SZJvhvtch+5T5xGq1AmLaIw7cX0hnZ2mtz3p+km gQVOnL2weyE3/VHXMEx3+A+Sk0OoBQkcu4VcL029NID3qlIqWvpdyQ== =k6DX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi there Chuck, Am 08.08.2000 so gegen 13:45 meintest Du: I agree ... however, allowed or not, I find it ironic how much bandwidth has been used to discuss waste of bandwidth. It's always like that =) Remembers me of Usenet laws =)) Chuck Cheers, Johannesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: What was the subscribe address for the OT list? -- Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Johannes, On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 21:02:54 +0200GMT (10/08/2000, 03:02 +0800GMT), Johannes M. Posel wrote: JMP PS: What was the subscribe address for the OT list? Go to www.egroups.com and look for a group called "tbot". -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Johannes, On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 21:09:41 +0200GMT (10/08/2000, 03:09 +0800GMT), Johannes M. Posel wrote: JMP I owe you a beer ;) Anytime. :-) JMP To be honest I cannot really believe you only get 1kb (this would be a JMP connect at *less* than 9600bps, which is what you get here when you're JMP surfing with your GSM mobile)! Remember 2400bps? Those were the times... g Granted. But no reason to unnecessary blow up a message to 300% of it's original size with a 4K "signature". JMP While I really don't want to insult you, what do you consider "normal" JMP mail size? Don't forget 'bout the headers, too. Mail with 1k (normal JMP cluster size) is not what I call normal. 4-6k, even 10k seems normal JMP to me... No, what I mean is, it depends of the inormation content. If a message has 1.2K without the s/mime and is blown up by 300% for the signature, it's not nomral. If a message has 10K of information, that's OK. -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Jason, Tuesday, August 08, 2000, 06:12:04, you wrote: BJ Hello Mark, BJ Monday, August 07, 2000, 9:27:38 AM, you wrote: JDB Point semi taken. I'll switch off PGP and leave S/Mime turned on. With JDB people like you we need to be careful. MA Actually it's the S/MIME that makes the message 6K or thereabouts, the MA PGP doesn't make much difference. BJ Pardon my ignorance. What is S/MIME? I've heard of mime and thought BJ that it was a way of encoding attachments...I thought attachments were BJ a no-no on this list. BJ Second question, I don't know much about PGP...I've always looked at BJ email as postcards (I don't write anything I wouldn't want anybody BJ else to see in an email) so I've never really looked into it. But from BJ my basic understanding, a PGP message can only be read by sender and BJ recipient. If this is the case, then why are we posting our PGP codes BJ to a group that communicates in mass? Shouldn't these be reserved for BJ interpersonal communications? BJ I plead ignorance on this...I'm not making any jabs at all. I honestly BJ and sincerely am asking to be educated on these matters. Personally I believe that when on a public list where you may make controversial decisions or flame people being able to certify who you are is very necessary. No one would be able to impersonate me as I always sign with at least pgp or s/mime. While encryption is not (easily) possible on a list signing is necessary. - -- Jamie Dainton Tuesday, August 08, 2000 08:06:40 The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 Windows 98 4.10 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=sendKey -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOY+x4rO9xx6V8gurEQLlnACguhdruUR9DUzw/JEWZhiAeXVX+ogAoN9+ T9+Xiakyxn+TC+PmY/OcKOGN =Gf4a -END PGP SIGNATURE- S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Jamie, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:08:12 +0100GMT (08/08/2000, 15:08 +0800GMT), Jamie Dainton wrote: JD Personally I believe that when on a public list where you may make JD controversial decisions or flame people being able to certify who you JD are is very necessary. There is no flaming ion this list. JD No one would be able to impersonate me as I always sign with at least JD pgp or s/mime. While encryption is not (easily) possible on a list JD signing is necessary. I disagree; in business, signing might be necessary. On mailing lists, where everybody can use phantasy names and most use freemail accounts, it is not necessary. If anybody wants to impersonate me on a mailing list, the IQ level of that list must be so low that I might not want to be a member anyway. Especially, please do not blow your postings up to over 7K just because of this S/Mime (which v.145 release doesn't recognise anyway - you're on the TBUDL here). Some people pay internet charges per download time; this list is meant to assist people who have problems or questions with TB. -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Jamie, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:14:41 +0100GMT (08/08/2000, 16:14 +0800GMT), Jamie Dainton wrote: JD OK 6k as opposed to 2K. That's 4K extra, on a 56K modem that's 1 JD second extra download time. Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. I have a 56K modem, but that does not mean that I actually get the data with that speed. Not everybody lives in the UK, you know. Also, it's not one message that may take longer. Take a list of 100 postings per day, and imagine each posting comes 4 or 5K extra. JD Flames do occur on this group. They're just very polite and subtle JD flames. sigh I have to agree. We are civilised flamers. g I still cannot imagine somebody wanting to impersonate me... I'd be honoured. ;-) JD Also as there is a S/Mime 1.45 release (sort of beta) and TBUDL will JD soon become a S/Mime help zone we may as well get 1.45 users familier JD with it. Also a lot of beta users post on TBUDL so the s/mime is JD easily visible to them. Once S/Mime is part of the release, we can and will discuss it here. Until such time, it is a beta matter. -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. are connections _that_ bad at Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. Data communication Business Group ??? Not everybody lives in the UK, you know. not in Taiwan either ;-) -- Rob -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Rob, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:20:10 GMTGMT (08/08/2000, 17:20 +0800GMT), Rob wrote: Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. R are connections _that_ bad at Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. Data communication R Business Group ??? I don't know about "Data Communication Business Group", but my telephone line at home is an ancient copper cable. 1.7Kps is the best I can get for international connections (and my POP server for this mailing list is in Germany). "Loading... at 207bps" is a familiar sight with Netscape. I am thinking of getting a cable modem now, they (i.e. competitors of Taiwan Telecom) make a lot of advertising. For ADSL, too. However, I'm waiting for someone to be first, as I don't want to invest and find out there is no speed increase... ;-) BTW in the office we have a LAN (I mentioned that, right) which is connected to Hinet by an ISDN line. However, I am nowhere near the ISDN speed I saw on my friends' computers in Germany. :-( Not everybody lives in the UK, you know. R not in Taiwan either ;-) ask Tracer about his baud rates ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Jamie, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:11:13 +0100GMT (08/08/2000, 17:11 +0800GMT), Jamie Dainton wrote: TF Also, it's not one message that may take longer. Take a list of 100 TF postings per day, and imagine each posting comes 4 or 5K extra. JD I actually made that point clear in my post and it has been snipped to JD falsify my opinion and allow you to make an unjustified argument. Your opinion is that it doesn't matter to you. It does matter to me. Please do not send S/Mime signatures. In this relase version which I am using here in the office, and for which this list is anyway, your certificate shows as a non-openable attachment and is just a waste of bandwidth. Thanks for some consideration. EOT. -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Jamie, I own up. This is Jamie Dainton pretending to be Thomas. At first glance this e-mail should look like it came from him. Who really checks the headers? -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi there Thomas, Am 08.08.2000 so gegen 10:51 meintest Du: Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. I have a 56K modem, but that does not mean that I actually get the data with that speed. Hey Thomas, RealityCheck ! With a 56k, on *average* (digital) phone lines you get, varying with the distance to the VST, at least 33,6k, mostly between 42-50kbps! Also, it's not one message that may take longer. Take a list of 100 postings per day, and imagine each posting comes 4 or 5K extra. You're using a modem. Modems feature compression that works quite nice. eMails are text. Text can be compressed at very high rates. Once S/Mime is part of the release, we can and will discuss it here. Until such time, it is a beta matter. There is a S/MIME 1.45 release... Cheers, Johannesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- User n.: A programmer who will believe anything you tell him. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Thomas, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:39:41 +0100GMT (08/08/2000, 17:39 +0800GMT), Thomas Fernandez wrote: TF Hi Jamie, TFI own up. This is Jamie Dainton pretending to be Thomas. At first TF glance this e-mail should look like it came from him. Who really checks the headers? ROTFLMAO! -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Johannes, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:00:57 +0200GMT (08/08/2000, 18:00 +0800GMT), Johannes M. Posel wrote: Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. I have a 56K modem, but that does not mean that I actually get the data with that speed. JMP Hey Thomas, RealityCheck ! With a 56k, on *average* (digital) phone JMP lines you get, varying with the distance to the VST, at least 33,6k, JMP mostly between 42-50kbps! In Germany, maybe. That's where my POP server is, yes. But my computer is in Taiwan. I have never, ever have had even 33.6K or any of the other speeds you're talking about, and it is mostly around 1K (that's at home, in downtown Taipei). If you don't believe me, please come here. Also, it's not one message that may take longer. Take a list of 100 postings per day, and imagine each posting comes 4 or 5K extra. JMP You're using a modem. Modems feature compression that works quite JMP nice. eMails are text. Text can be compressed at very high rates. Granted. But no reason to unnecessary blow up a message to 300% of it's original size with a 4K "signature". JMP There is a S/MIME 1.45 release... You'll find it on the beta page ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.45 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:48:05 +0800, Thomas Fernandez wrote: TF Your opinion is that it doesn't matter to you. It does matter to me. TF Please do not send S/Mime signatures. In this relase version which I TF am using here in the office, and for which this list is anyway, your TF certificate shows as a non-openable attachment and is just a waste TF of bandwidth. The moderators need to step in here, I believe, and clear the air. Is S/MIME signing of messages allowed or not? If it's allowed then leave Jamie alone please. Simple. The above is not an opinion but a request which may be unwarranted. So what's the word moderators? -- -=A.C. Martin=-[TB! v1.46 Beta/3 «» Win2k Pro SP1] PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey "People are always available for work in the past tense. " -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
On Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 6:10 AM or thereabouts, Curtis wrote the following about OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules): Curtis The moderators need to step in here, I believe, and clear the Curtis air. Is S/MIME signing of messages allowed or not? If it's Curtis allowed then leave Jamie alone please. Simple. The above is Curtis not an opinion but a request which may be unwarranted. So Curtis what's the word moderators? I agree ... however, allowed or not, I find it ironic how much bandwidth has been used to discuss waste of bandwidth. Chuck -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Chuck Mattsen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.users.uswest.net/~mattsen =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Random Thought/Quote for this Message: Give happiness/Deserve happiness. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Curtis, On 08 August 2000 at 06:10:49 GMT -0500 (which was 12:10 where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject of "OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)": C The moderators need to step in here, I believe, and clear the air. C Is S/MIME signing of messages allowed or not? If it's allowed then C leave Jamie alone please. Simple. The above is not an opinion but a C request which may be unwarranted. So what's the word moderators? I have replied to the thread elewhere but I am having my own connectivity problems here on the LAN and it has taken me an hour to get my response out of the door. My apologies to the list for this delay. -- Cheers, .\\arck Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY *--- | Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 S/N 14F4B4B2 | under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 *--- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Jamie, On 08 August 2000 at 11:19:37 GMT +0100 (which was 11:19 where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject of "OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)": TF Your opinion is that it doesn't matter to you. It does matter to TF me. Please do not send S/Mime signatures. In this relase version TF which I am using here in the office, and for which this list is TF anyway, your certificate shows as a non-openable attachment and TF is just a waste of bandwidth. TF Thanks for some consideration. EOT. JD You appear to be a minority low bandwidth user. Many users enjoy PGP and JD S/Mime. I do not think it is necessary to decrease our security to JD accommodate the minority of users who have a very low bandwidth JD connection. JD As it has been mentioned before text does compress very well. Maybe JD you should double check your modem settings. Okay - you've all had a say in this debate. My turn: Thomas you have my sympathy for your connectivity issues. Sometimes signatures are a valid method of authentication. On this list, I do agree that they are not needed. There is another bandwidth issue on this topic too. Mail base size. I archive all TBUDL and TBBETA throughput for quick reference. These signatures are a permanent overhead in my archive and at 6k per message it starts to add up. Jamie: Please sign only with PGP for this list (TBUDL) for these main reasons: 1) Your Thawte certificate is *not* notorised and does *not* certify that the mail comes from Jamie Dainton. Some S/MIME signatures in use have been fully authenticated and are therefore more acceptable but still OTT from the POV of identification for TBUDL. 2) PGP signing is much more humane for those of us with huge mail-bases and / or slow connectivity issues. IMNSHO S/MIME signing constitutes an attachment and as such isn't permitted in TBUDL. While working on signing issues for the beta and writing about it in TBBETA, well that's another issue. -- Cheers, .\\arck Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY *--- | Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 S/N 14F4B4B2 | under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 *--- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Chuck, On 08 August 2000 at 06:45:37 GMT -0500 (which was 12:45 where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject of "OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)": CM ... I find it ironic how much bandwidth has been used to discuss CM waste of bandwidth. g -- Cheers, .\\arck Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY *--- | Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 S/N 14F4B4B2 | under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 *--- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
1) Your Thawte certificate is *not* notorised and does *not* certify that the mail comes from Jamie Dainton. just out of curiosity ; i just downloaded PGP 6.5.1i, but as far as i remember - i toyed with it in the DOS days - a PGP key also is not a 100% guarantee that the sender is who he says he is, is it ?? PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY you have a filter/macro/template that automagically sends back your key ?? now that S/MIME is OT _and_ 'passé' i think i'll dive into PGP ;-) -- Rob -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 06:45:37 -0500, Chuck Mattsen wrote: CM Curtis The moderators need to step in here, I believe, and clear the CM Curtis air. Is S/MIME signing of messages allowed or not? If it's CM Curtis allowed then leave Jamie alone please. Simple. The above is CM Curtis not an opinion but a request which may be unwarranted. So CM Curtis what's the word moderators? teasing We had better decide if quote prefixing like the above is necessary bandwidth wastage. :-)) I mean, all we need is to just indicate the quote. 8 extra characters per line?! Terrible. /teasing CM I agree ... however, allowed or not, I find it ironic how much CM bandwidth has been used to discuss waste of bandwidth. It's an investment. :-) Spending some time/bandwidth to settle disputes that may affect all subscribers is always worth it IMO. -- -=A.C. Martin=-[TB! v1.46 Beta/3 «» Win2k Pro SP1] PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey "If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished! " -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
On Tuesday, August 08, 2000 at 7:10 AM or thereabouts, Curtis wrote the following about OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules): -- [snip] --8 CM Curtis what's the word moderators? Curtis teasing We had better decide if quote prefixing like the Curtis above is necessary bandwidth wastage. :-)) I mean, all we need Curtis is to just indicate the quote. 8 extra characters per line?! Curtis Terrible. /teasing I wonder what other features TB! offers that we could chastise people for having the audacity to use them? ;-) I can envision a whole new list ... TBSHAME. g CM I agree ... however, allowed or not, I find it ironic how much CM bandwidth has been used to discuss waste of bandwidth. Curtis It's an investment. :-) Spending some time/bandwidth to settle Curtis disputes that may affect all subscribers is always worth it Curtis IMO. Agreed ... however, prior to your call to the mods to step in and the subsequent response, I think the discussion could better be characterized as "spinning wheels" rather than settling. Chuck -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Chuck Mattsen[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.users.uswest.net/~mattsen =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Random Thought/Quote for this Message: Never give a gun to ducks. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Rob, On 08 August 2000 at 12:26:37 GMT GMT (which was 13:26 where I live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points on the subject of "OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)": PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY R you have a filter/macro/template that automagically sends back your key ?? Many here use a TB auto-responder for the job. I have a server here which handles it without me having to get my laptop / workstation involved. -- Cheers, .\\arck Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA www: http://www.silverstones.com PGP key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY *--- | Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 S/N 14F4B4B2 | under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 *--- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Tuesday, August 08, 2000, 1:26:37 PM, you wrote: 1) Your Thawte certificate is *not* notorised and does *not* certify that the mail comes from Jamie Dainton. R just out of curiosity ; i just downloaded PGP 6.5.1i, but as far as i remember - R i toyed with it in the DOS days - a PGP key also is not a 100% guarantee that R the sender is who he says he is, is it ?? No I agree here, the fact that the signature is bound to Jamie's email address rather than is actual identity (photographs etc), isn't really relevant. It still stops anyone forging an email in his address. The only reason you would need a notarised signature is perhaps for legal documents etc, or communications that are not wholly email based. Anyone could forge a PGP key, if you manage to give fake details to Thawte it says they can sue you for about 10,000 dollars or something crazy. I still think that the most acceptable solution would be to send an S/MIME signature without sending the PGP key, which would be comparable in size to a PGP signature, and much more elegant. -- Dave - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hi Thomas Rob, Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. R are connections _that_ bad at Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. Data R communication Business Group ??? I'm wondering about that, too. I knew Chunghwa Telecom wasn't good and Hinet charged by minute, but I didn't know they are that bad. I don't know about "Data Communication Business Group", but my telephone line at home is an ancient copper cable. 1.7Kps is the best I can get for international connections (and my POP server for this mailing list is in Germany). "Loading... at 207bps" is a familiar sight with Netscape. Hmmm, you mean you're dialing to Germany to collect mail? Wouldn't that be more expensive than getting an account from a Taiwanese ISP? I remember you have a Hinet account, right? (For I remember you use Hinet's SMTP server.) I do know the pain of having to make do with ancient copper wire, though, and I agree with your position about using S/MIME on TBUDL. Too bad I got up too late this morning to join the debate before the moderator stepped in. :) I am thinking of getting a cable modem now, they (i.e. competitors of Taiwan Telecom) make a lot of advertising. For ADSL, too. However, I'm waiting for someone to be first, as I don't want to invest and find out there is no speed increase... ;-) FWIW, a friend of mine have been using ADSL for a few month in Taipei and he's been happy with it. It could be a problem, however, if your copper wire--especially your inside wiring--is really old. It costs a lot for the telecom company to debug/repair inside wiring problem. If you have cable service at home, it might be a better bet. At least the cable is newer. (Taiwan didn't have cable service until around 10 years ago, so the cable have to be newer.) BTW in the office we have a LAN (I mentioned that, right) which is connected to Hinet by an ISDN line. However, I am nowhere near the ISDN speed I saw on my friends' computers in Germany. :-( As a Taiwanese, I'm sad to hear that, but not really surprised. Looks like the privitization of Chunghwa Telecom and the liberization of telecom market haven't done the public much good so far. Not everybody lives in the UK, you know. R not in Taiwan either ;-) ask Tracer about his baud rates ;-) H, I got curious. How is your baud rate, Tracer? -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tuesday, August 08, 2000, 7:43:48 AM, David wrote: Anyone could forge a PGP key, if you manage to give fake details to Thawte it says they can sue you for about 10,000 dollars or something crazy. No, noone can force a PGP key. If you think so, please, go ahead and try to forge any of mine. I'm confident it won't be happening this week. Study up on the web of trust before stating it is so easy. I still think that the most acceptable solution would be to send an S/MIME signature without sending the PGP key, which would be comparable in size to a PGP signature, and much more elegant. HUH? You're not making sense here. - -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. - ---+- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOZAlvHpf7K2LbpnFEQI3ogCffTebMj64XRixw8/yFoViP5Cg0dQAoI0R I7I9MAMvqVp11wPMgsrg+uj7 =Y8Op -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hallo Ming-Li, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 07:30:19 -0700 GMT (08/08/2000, 22:30 +0800 GMT), Ming-Li wrote: Try again with varying speeds betwenn 200 baud and 1.7K per second on a phone line that disconnects every couple of minutes. R are connections _that_ bad at Chunghwa Telecom Co., Ltd. Data R communication Business Group ??? ML I'm wondering about that, too. I knew Chunghwa Telecom wasn't good ML and Hinet charged by minute, but I didn't know they are that bad. It seems to depend on the area where you live. I have an average of 1Kps (in Ta-An), but a friend of mine who lives a bit outside (Hsin-Tien) gets speeds of well over 20Kps. ML Hmmm, you mean you're dialing to Germany to collect mail? Wouldn't ML that be more expensive than getting an account from a Taiwanese ISP? ML I remember you have a Hinet account, right? (For I remember you use ML Hinet's SMTP server.) No. I connect to Hinet by local call. Still, their international links seem not too fast (or is it the last stretch, the one from the server into my house and my modem that makes it so slow? Who knows.). ML If you have cable service at home, it might be a better ML bet. At least the cable is newer. I have cable TV. I may be naive, but isn't that the same cable they use for cable modems? BTW in the office we have a LAN (I mentioned that, right) which is connected to Hinet by an ISDN line. However, I am nowhere near the ISDN speed I saw on my friends' computers in Germany. :-( ML As a Taiwanese, I'm sad to hear that, but not really surprised. ML Looks like the privitization of Chunghwa Telecom and the ML liberization of telecom market haven't done the public much good so ML far. The privatisation had the effect that the new ISP's first leased space (channels) on Hinet's international links... a few now have their own now, I hear. But of course own links are expensive (especially the high-speed ones) and I haven't heard anybody say, ISP so-and-so is much faster than Hinet. But I do have the feeling it is getting better in general, at least when you believe the newspapers. Taiwan wants to become big in internet services, which is in line with the Hi-Tech Image. I am not surprised that I see a lot of ads of cable modem ISP's, something which I didn't see in Germany last month. Taiwan is not stagnating, things are happening and improving all the time. :-) -- Cheers, Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: OT? S/MIME PGP (inspired by: Re[2]: List server rules)
Hallo Jamie, On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 12:04:02 +0100 GMT (08/08/2000, 19:04 +0800 GMT), Jamie Dainton wrote: JD I await your reply. Sorry, I do owe you a reply. The thing was, I left the office, and by the time I checked my email at home, the thread had been finished. Should you wish to continue, let's take it outside (I mean TBOT). ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46 Beta/3 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
