[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Maybe ... the _canonical_uri image tiddlers could carry the 
copyright/licensing credits and display them when displayed singly. But not 
display them when used as transclusions in other tiddlers. 

Mark

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 4:47:36 AM UTC-7, PMario wrote:
>
> On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 8:44:56 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>>
>> The one part of my original question that hasn't got answer is IF its 
>> possible, at the moment, to move a tiddler such that in a new TW with a 
>> "copyright" or "license" field could be forced to show. That would be 
>> important.
>>
>
> Hmmm, 
>
> As an author you can't and imo shouldn't try to *force* anything on your 
> users. IMO that's the wrong way to bind your users. That's why DRM 
>  has failed. IMO 
> the only way to bind your users is superior content. 
>
> If we have an open license or free license, the "free" is meant like *freedom 
> to use* and not as in "free beer". ... Forcing something on someone has 
> nothing to do with freedom for me. 
>
> If I'm forced to do something in an open source environment, my reaction 
> is like this: "I don't use the stuff!" It's as simple as that. ... because 
> "*I'm 
> free, to do that!*" 
>
> just some thoughts
> -m
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 12:03:15 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Part of my issue, I think, has been discussion that makes it like WE need 
> to solve the issue. We do NOT need to solve the issue. Its already solved 
> 9.6 times out of ten. Its much more about linkage than anything, I think.
>

Yea. Giving credit to an open source author in a sensible way, imo is much 
more important, than handling licenses in the right way. This includes 
mentioning the author of an image directly by the image. 

For me a prominent "one click link" to a "Thanks to page" is much more 
worth than a prominent link to the plugins used. I'm fine if the licensing 
is 3 clicks away from the main page. 

just some thoughts
-mario

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 9:42:21 PM UTC+2, Lost Admin wrote:
>
>
> Playing devils advoate here: It seams to me it would get very annoying if 
> I'm transcluding a bunch of different SVG tiddlers into my own tiddler and 
> they all have separate copyright and license notices. The copyrights and 
> licenses may end up taking up more space than the images.
>

That's the point. Working with licenses imo is cumbersome. But *giving 
credit* (which imo is much more important than handling licenses in the 
right way) should be as easy as possible. 

-mario

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 8:44:56 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>
> The one part of my original question that hasn't got answer is IF its 
> possible, at the moment, to move a tiddler such that in a new TW with a 
> "copyright" or "license" field could be forced to show. That would be 
> important.
>

Hmmm, 

As an author you can't and imo shouldn't try to *force* anything on your 
users. IMO that's the wrong way to bind your users. That's why DRM 
 has failed. IMO 
the only way to bind your users is superior content. 

If we have an open license or free license, the "free" is meant like *freedom 
to use* and not as in "free beer". ... Forcing something on someone has 
nothing to do with freedom for me. 

If I'm forced to do something in an open source environment, my reaction is 
like this: "I don't use the stuff!" It's as simple as that. ... because "*I'm 
free, to do that!*" 

just some thoughts
-m

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I agree. Let the address do the work. Its much better that way because its 
not messed up by local concerns about space & wording. 

Part of my issue, I think, has been discussion that makes it like WE need 
to solve the issue. We do NOT need to solve the issue. Its already solved 
9.6 times out of ten. Its much more about linkage than anything, I think.

J.

On Monday, 19 June 2017 23:47:42 UTC+2, Thomas Elmiger wrote:
>
> Have a look at how Wikipedia deals with this. In an article you see just 
> an image: 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_Portable
>
> If you click on an image you see author (, publisher) and license 
> immediately without having to open the image (jpg, png, wathever) in a 
> special software or in source code view: 
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_Portable#/media/File%3AApricot_portable.png
>
> I think this is how license and copyright owner should be presented. 
>
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[Thomas Elmiger]

Have a look at how Wikipedia deals with this. In an article you see just an 
image: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_Portable

If you click on an image you see author (, publisher) and license immediately 
without having to open the image (jpg, png, wathever) in a special software or 
in source code view: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_Portable#/media/File%3AApricot_portable.png

I think this is how license and copyright owner should be presented. 

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Lost Admin wrote:
 

> Playing devils advoate here: It seams to me it would get very annoying if 
> I'm transcluding a bunch of different SVG tiddlers into my own tiddler and 
> they all have separate copyright and license notices. The copyrights and 
> licenses may end up taking up more space than the images.
>

That is a very interesting issue. Or rather issueS. 

Regarding many SVG of different sources having different licences: It may 
be so. That is not the documenter's fault, its honouring origins. 

Regarding SPACE.I agree if you have long license statements its an issue. 
But mostly it would only be an HTML address, hardly a major headache.

Josiah

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[Lost Admin]

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 2:44:56 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> I think Thomas makes the killer point ...
>
> I find the idea appealing to include a field "license" and maybe a field 
>> "copyright" with my name/website. The information in these fields should be 
>> visible in the SVG tiddler without any additional macro or copyright 
>> tiddlers in view mode – but invisible when it is used/transcluded in my 
>> plugin interface. 
>>
>
> Burying copyright inside the SVG seems to me coping strategy, not 
> fairness. I think it would be far better to have an EXPLICIT, visible, 
> link. Yes, SVG supports a copyright string, but I think in TW we can have a 
> more universal approach too that can apply globally on license/copyright 
> issues.
>

I think of putting the copyright inside the SVG as the right solution. I 
may take the SVG out of tiddlywiki to use elsewhere and then the 
copyright/license details are lost unless I remember to copy them too 
(which I'm not likely to do if I'm in a rush).
 

> The one part of my original question that hasn't got answer is IF its 
> possible, at the moment, to move a tiddler such that in a new TW with a 
> "copyright" or "license" field could be forced to show. That would be 
> important.
>

Add {{!!license}} to the body of the tiddler? Or maybe 
{{svgtiddler!!license}}, assuming double transclusion works.
 

> Regarding it being a "management nightmare" to go this way I can't see the 
> issue. To me its seems minimalist & workable & pretty fair.
>

Playing devils advoate here: It seams to me it would get very annoying if 
I'm transcluding a bunch of different SVG tiddlers into my own tiddler and 
they all have separate copyright and license notices. The copyrights and 
licenses may end up taking up more space than the images.


> Best wishes
> Josiah
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

I think Thomas makes the killer point ...

I find the idea appealing to include a field "license" and maybe a field 
> "copyright" with my name/website. The information in these fields should be 
> visible in the SVG tiddler without any additional macro or copyright 
> tiddlers in view mode – but invisible when it is used/transcluded in my 
> plugin interface. 
>

Burying copyright inside the SVG seems to me coping strategy, not fairness. 
I think it would be far better to have an EXPLICIT, visible, link. Yes, SVG 
supports a copyright string, but I think in TW we can have a more universal 
approach too that can apply globally on license/copyright issues.

The one part of my original question that hasn't got answer is IF its 
possible, at the moment, to move a tiddler such that in a new TW with a 
"copyright" or "license" field could be forced to show. That would be 
important.

Regarding it being a "management nightmare" to go this way I can't see the 
issue. To me its seems minimalist & workable & pretty fair.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi all

Interessting points of view, let me add my own as an author of texts, SVGs and 
TW “software”. 

As a creator I earn the copyright for my stuff and I can decide to publish a 
work under a certain license to state my intentions about it’s use. E.g. I 
could use a CC license: 

“Creative Commons licenses provide an easy way to manage the copyright terms 
that attach automatically to all creative material under copyright.” [1]

Suppose I publish an SVG graphic in a TW in stripped svg format. Where would I 
include licensing information? 

Case: I want to use this graphic in one of my TW plugins, anyone may use it for 
free as part of my free plugin. 
User J likes my graphic and includes it in his SVG collegtion of graphics. 
User P loads my SVG from J’s collection and wants to print and sell t-shirts 
with my design. 

How can we let user P know that he must ask me for a commercial license? 

I find the idea appealing to include a field "license" and maybe a field 
"copyright" with my name/website. The information in these fields should be 
visible in the SVG tiddler without any additional macro or copyright tiddlers 
in view mode – but invisible when it is used/transcluded in my plugin 
interface. 

This way it would be possible to drag my work from wiki to wiki without 
accidentally loosing the copyright and license information. 

And yes: a CC-0 license is a license too and it would be useful to keep this 
information included for folks like Josiah and me who care about stuff like 
this, so we know we can do anything without asking. 

Just my five cents. All the best!
Thomas 

[1] 
https://creativecommons.org/faq/#What_happens_if_the_author_decides_to_revoke_the_CC_license_to_material_I_am_using.3F

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Doesn't SVG allow comments inside? So the SVG itself could carry the 
copyright. 

SVG works with CSS, right? So you could have a SVG watermark that has to be 
deliberately turned off by CSS in the TW.

Mark

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> He's in a Dark Room. He picks up The Bundler and enters The SVG SaltMines. 
> The Clock is stopped. 
>
> PMario wrote:
>>
>> TL;DR -- Valid for your image usecase only
>>
>> I would handle it that way: 
>>
>> Create a tiddler: Image-Licenses with the content:
>>
>> Everything that is tagged: $:/tags/Image is license: x, y, z ... 
>> <>
>>
>> and link the tiddler somewhere in the "Thanks to: " section of the wiki.
>>
>> -- Reasoning below: It's a management problem 
>>
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

He's in a Dark Room. He picks up The Bundler and enters The SVG SaltMines. 
The Clock is stopped. 

PMario wrote:
>
> TL;DR -- Valid for your image usecase only
>
> I would handle it that way: 
>
> Create a tiddler: Image-Licenses with the content:
>
> Everything that is tagged: $:/tags/Image is license: x, y, z ... 
> <>
>
> and link the tiddler somewhere in the "Thanks to: " section of the wiki.
>
> -- Reasoning below: It's a management problem 
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

In THIS case Jed creates NO real license on usage at all. Rather a 
redundant license of negation.

Unlike you I think this IS a Copyright issue, because he DECLARES it is not 
copyrighted, but under a specific fruitless license :-). Its that 
declaration that has entailments for users having to replicate a license 
that his work is not copyrighted.

Josiah

On Monday, 19 June 2017 14:27:15 UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 2:10:13 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> You are also missing one point that by declaring a copyright that gives 
>> ALL rights you are also declaring a copyright that has to be replicated, 
>> even if ALL rights are given. If that is what you want then "This is NOT 
>> copyright" is the way to go :-)
>>
>
> As I wrote. It not a copyright issue. It's all about licensing. Throw the 
> copyright term away
>  
>
>>
>> "The person who associated a work with this deed has *dedicated* the 
>> work to the public domain by waiving all of his or her rights to the work 
>> worldwide under copyright law"
>>
>
> That's a problem. There are some countries, where this type of license is 
> not possible.
> -m
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 2:10:13 PM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> You are also missing one point that by declaring a copyright that gives 
> ALL rights you are also declaring a copyright that has to be replicated, 
> even if ALL rights are given. If that is what you want then "This is NOT 
> copyright" is the way to go :-)
>

As I wrote. It not a copyright issue. It's all about licensing. Throw the 
copyright term away
 

>
> "The person who associated a work with this deed has *dedicated* the work 
> to the public domain by waiving all of his or her rights to the work 
> worldwide under copyright law"
>

That's a problem. There are some countries, where this type of license is 
not possible.
-m

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

TL;DR -- Valid for your image usecase only

I would handle it that way: 

Create a tiddler: Image-Licenses with the content:

Everything that is tagged: $:/tags/Image is license: x, y, z ... 
<>

and link the tiddler somewhere in the "Thanks to: " section of the wiki.

-- Reasoning below: It's a management problem 


On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 9:59:39 AM UTC+2, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> I have an issue. The best way to explain it is through a *Use Case*.
>
> Imagine you made a library of svg icons using other peoples images. You 
> want users to be able to browse and drag-n-drop ONLY icons they want (i.e. 
> a plugin containing them all is inappropriate). 
>

For SVGs  there is 
an established mechanism to include meta-data directly into the svg code. 
... SVGs use a text based XML  
(Extensible Markup Language) format.  

If you open it with a text editor or TW-editor, it looks very similar to 
HTML  (Hypertext Markup Language) and 
it is "human" and "machine" readable. see: 
http://tiddlywiki.com/#%24%3A%2Fcore%2Fimages%2Fdelete-button and open it. 

With TW we use a *manually stripped down* version of SVG. There is just 
enough "xml" left, that the browser or an other program can handle it.  

eg: (stripped down again for readability)




...



If you save the delete button as an delete.svg file, open it with eg: 
inkscape, Edit the global Document: Settings: License to eg: CC-BY and 
save, you'll get something similar to this: 


http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"; xmlns=
"http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"; viewBox="0 0 128 128" height="22pt" width=
"22pt" version="1.1" xmlns:cc="http://creativecommons.org/ns#"; xmlns:dc=
"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"; class="tc-image-delete-button 
tc-image-button">
 
  
   
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/"/>
   
  
 
 
  
  ...
 



As you can see, now the (manually stripped down)  section is 
still "heavier" then the real content. ... That's why we completely 
stripped it in TW. ... BUT it contains a  section, that is 
sufficient for your drag and drop usecase. 

Similar settings are available for every other image editor. eg: exif for 
jpg , png, gif, and so on. So  If 
the global program settings are done right, the license fields should be 
there already.

So if you want to deal with it for images, you definitely should have a 
look at the editor-software. ... That's one reason, why I wrote: "*It's a 
management problem*"

have fun!
mario

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jed

I agree its a social issue. 

And in ordinary Tiddler life to date its NOT been much of an issue. 

But it is a concern because people do have rights, and some of them may 
someday want to assert them, so its important to address that IMO.

Josiah

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that this is a social problem, not a technological one.
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Further Jed

You are also missing one point that by declaring a copyright that gives ALL 
rights you are also declaring a copyright that has to be replicated, even 
if ALL rights are given. If that is what you want then "This is NOT 
copyright" is the way to go :-)

"The person who associated a work with this deed has *dedicated* the work 
to the public domain by waiving all of his or her rights to the work 
worldwide under copyright law"

You really do not to have to say that unless you want people to have to 
replicate it :-).

Josiah

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[Jed Carty]

I think that this is a social problem, not a technological one. It doesn't 
matter what you have, if people want to ignore it than they will. I think 
that if you have something in whatever the bundling interface is that lists 
licenses that would be about as much as would be effective. If someone is 
going to ignore that than they would ignore a more persistent notification 
also.

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jed

I was thinking of a strictly delimited case. The transport of a Tiddler 
that has an explicit "license/copyright" need. I was thinking only that a 
footer could display a link to its conditions of use. Otherwise you have to 
add additional informational tiddlers etc. It seems to ME that ONE field 
for that is the lightest solution. But as is it won't display when 
transferred.  IF you can assure me that a HIDDEN field is enough then I can 
let this issue go. But I would rather you were known. 

Josiah

Jed Carty wrote:
>
> Being able to show it is not a bad idea, but I don't like the idea of 
> forcing it to display.
>

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[Jed Carty]

If I make all the stuff on my wiki available as CC-0 than forcing tiddler 
to show that when it is displayed is just going to be annoying I think.

Being able to show it is not a bad idea, but I don't like the idea of 
forcing it to display.

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

... :) please wait a bit. I'm not finished yet 
-m

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[@TiddlyTweeter]

PMario

Your exactitude is perfect  for this kind of discussion :-)

First: my practical issue about whether you can force fields to show when a 
Tiddler is transferred did not get answer, yet :-). Any ideas?

Second: Licensing seems, then, to me to replace my idea of "copyright". But 
the same applies, doesn't it? That a License Field that was always forced 
to show (if it had any content) could solve many issues around 
licensing/copyright between TW's?

My point is you SHOULD SAY SOMETHING :-).

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: Query -- The Fully Self-Revealing Tiddler?

[PMario]

Hi,

First things first: Copyright  [1] 
and Software Licensing  [2] 
are different things. 

Quote Wikipedia: Copyright

*Copyright* is a legal right created by the law of a country that grants 
> the creator of an original work exclusive rights for its use and 
> distribution.


Simplified speaking: "Whenever you create something new, you automatically 
have the copyright"


Quote Wikipedia: Software Licensing

A *software license* is a legal instrument (usually by way of contract law, 
> with or without printed material) governing the use or redistribution of 
> software
>

In other words: "A license describes the copyright owners intentions about 
*use* and *redistribution* of the work."


So using those 2 definitions, there basically can't be a copyright issue. 
... There only can be a Licensing issue. ... So you should forget about 
copyright. It's always there and mentioned in the license anyway. see: 
TW-License 
 [3] or in 
a different form  [4] see: 
bundlers-license 

[5]

So *we only need to focus on licensing.* 

more to come. ... 

have fun!
mario

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