Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Hi Anthony, Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). -- Anthony 1) Does windows really implement NTP? I thought it was SNTP. 2) PC hardware running Linux/xBSD and the NTP reference implementation, runs very well att polling rates of 1024 seconds or longer. (Keeping sub 1ms accuracy towards local S1-servers.) -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Windows is SNTP. You can google w32time to get more info, but this is the gist of it: This finally brings us to KB article 939322: “Support boundary to configure the Windows Time service for high accuracy environments” “We do not guarantee and we do not support the accuracy of the W32Time service between nodes on a network. The W32Time service is not a full-featured NTP solution that meets time-sensitive application needs. The W32Time service is primarily designed to do the following: --- All the 32 bit code runs on WOW, which is why I wondered about native code. That is, maybe the program isn't as accurate under emulation. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
I ran it long enough to see that it didn't crash, but since it loaded up in the X86 part of win 7 64 bit, I didn't see the point of running it. I can run Meinberg if I want a 32 bit NTP. On 1/16/2012 11:43 PM, David J Taylor wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. http://sites.google.com/site/ntpserverspl/ntp-server-time-client-64 I was going to ask, Gary, have you used this software, have you seen any difference between 32-bit and 64-bit operation on Windows? I would have thought that you wouldn't see a lot of difference, but I could be wrong. The lack of visible source files on that site is rather putting me off! Cheers, David ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). -- Anthony Anthony, The built-in client does not support NTP fully - for example, reference clocks and the management functions. Tell me how accurate it is, for example. It doesn't respond to a standard: ntpq -p command - you need real NTP for that. My advice is to forget the Microsoft built-in client. Running updates more frequently than is necessary is not particularly server friendly. Properly configured, read NTP can be within milliseconds on Windows, and within a couple of hundred microseconds if you have a PPS source. Using interpolation, you can get far more precision out of a PC clock: http://www.lochan.org/2005/keith-cl/useful/win32time.html Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 15 Seconds error...??
On 1/17/2012 2:04 AM, gary wrote: My description of the problem would have been a thousand times better if I mentioned monotonicity. UTC is monotonic. The problem is with people who assume that minutes always have 60 seconds. In UTC, they don't - they can have 59, 60, or 61 seconds. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 15 Seconds error...??
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:57:22 -0500 Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com wrote: On 1/17/2012 2:04 AM, gary wrote: My description of the problem would have been a thousand times better if I mentioned monotonicity. UTC is monotonic. The problem is with people who assume that minutes always have 60 seconds. In UTC, they don't - they can have 59, 60, or 61 seconds. Not 100% true. It depends on the representation of UTC. If you represent it as a seconds counter (like unix time or similar), then you can have seconds that are two seconds long and theoretically even back steps. In reality, you will have a monotonic increasing counter (but not strictly monotonic!) and this is a problem. Hence POSIX introduced strictly monotonic time source (but with an arbitrary starting point). Be also aware that most computer systems or devices that need an RTC are using a similar seconds counter. And all these systems are affected by leapseconds if they are not defined to use an offset value to calculate UTC. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 15 Seconds error...??
On 1/17/2012 7:14 AM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 06:57:22 -0500 Mike Smi...@flatsurface.com wrote: On 1/17/2012 2:04 AM, gary wrote: My description of the problem would have been a thousand times better if I mentioned monotonicity. UTC is monotonic. The problem is with people who assume that minutes always have 60 seconds. In UTC, they don't - they can have 59, 60, or 61 seconds. Not 100% true. It depends on the representation of UTC You're 100% wrong. You argue as if there are options in how to represent UTC. There aren't. That's made clear by ITU-R TF.460-6, which defines UTC: A positive leap-second begins at 23h 59m 60s and ends at 0h 0m 0s of the first day of the following month. In the case of a negative leap-second, 23h 59m 58s will be followed one second later by 0h 0m 0s of the first day of the following month. http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/tf/R-REC-TF.460-6-200202-I!!PDF-E.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
1) Does windows really implement NTP? I thought it was SNTP. Apparently, in current versions of Windows, it is a home-cooked version of an NTP client. All I know is that my PC stays accurate within a very small fraction of a second while synchronizing from my NTP server (the UNIX machine sitting next to the Windows machine on my LAN), and I'm not using anything other than the standard Windows built-in client. About the only parameter I've adjusted has been the synchronization interval: by default, it's set to a week, and I've set it to seven minutes (synchronization costs nothing between two machines on a LAN). I used to use a payware synchronization client, but when I discovered that the built-in client was just fine as long as the polling interval was short enough, I stopped using the payware. The main problem with the built-in client just seems to be that it waits so long between synchronizations: days, in other words, whereas the average PC is off by several seconds each day if not constantly corrected. It's possible to improve the accuracy of system time enormously just by shortening the interval to once or twice a day, depending on how much accuracy you want or need. 2) PC hardware running Linux/xBSD and the NTP reference implementation, runs very well att polling rates of 1024 seconds or longer. (Keeping sub 1ms accuracy towards local S1-servers.) My BSD server keeps the master time for my (two-machine) LAN. Windows is a client to the BSD machine, which in turn is is a client to a couple of reliable time servers out on the Net. It all works extremely well and the machines tend to stay synchronized to well within perceptual accuracy, although I imagine they are probably out of sync by some milliseconds (or perhaps not!). I do occasionally see failed to synchronize on the Windows side when I try to force a synchronization, but when allowed to synchronize on its own, it's right on the mark. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
The built-in client does not support NTP fully - for example, reference clocks and the management functions. Tell me how accurate it is, for example. It is accurate enough that I can't see or hear a difference between the Windows machine and the BSD server to which it is synchronzed. All I've done is set the Windows client to synchronize every seven minutes, instead of every seven days, and I've pointed it to my server, instead of the default server. My advice is to forget the Microsoft built-in client. I don't have anything that requires accuracy better than I can perceive, and the Microsoft client provides that, so there's no need to install anything special. Running updates more frequently than is necessary is not particularly server friendly. My NTP server has nothing better to do, so it's not a problem. I wouldn't sync every seven minutes to an outside server. Properly configured, read NTP can be within milliseconds on Windows, and within a couple of hundred microseconds if you have a PPS source. It seems to do very well with the built-in client. I imagine that perceived accuracy is within 50 ms or so. Of course, others can do as they wish, but why install something special if the built-in client does well enough? I used to have something special (can't remember which product it was), but when I discovered that the regular client did just as well for my purposes, I removed it. Now, maybe a third-party client might work better if you update at longer intervals, but in my case my NTP server is on the same table, so there's no reason not to update at very frequent intervals. I'd be surprised by any client that could keep the machine accurate for 7-day intervals, though, given how crummy PC real-time clocks tend to be. -- Anthony ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Of course, others can do as they wish, but why install something special if the built-in client does well enough? I used to have something special (can't remember which product it was), but when I discovered that the regular client did just as well for my purposes, I removed it. [] -- Anthony I answered your first question on my Web page here: http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/setup.html#why Should you become interested in precise time (look at the list name!), you may well remove the built-in client, and move to the Windows port or reference NTP. If what you have works well enough for you (and I note your comments about your server and LAN setup), and you can manage and control it as well as you need, no need to change. By the way, our application requires the time to be within a second or so - it's for determining aircraft position by multilateration. The Windows port of reference what we recommend. Cheers, David -- SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 10:46:19 +0100, Anthony G. Atkielski anth...@atkielski.com wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Windows has long had its own built-in NTP client. All you have to do is use that. You can change the parameters as needed (I always point the built-in client to my local NTP server and set the update frequency to once every few minutes, given the poor accuracy of PC clocks). I have had problems with the build in Windows NTP client getting confused or giving up and then neglecting to mention the problem so I still use Tardis: http://www.kaska.demon.co.uk/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 5680A update
After eight weeks of monitoring to 1 E-12, I still se no aging. Waiting for a change so I can do other tests. One thing I clearly se is a 4 Hz filter response changing the output by +- 3 E-11. It may be more, will have to find a way to check it more accurately, because of limited response time. I for one will fix that problem with a Morion MV 89 and a 100 Hz analog filter. New Morion's are available for less than $ 30 the ones I bought seem new. That's also where I got my 5680A Have no contact with the seller. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:09 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
Bert, Since you have been running your unit for a long time, what temperature are you holding your 5680 to? I suppose more to the point, I attached my unit to a 1/2 think aluminum plate slightly larger than the 5680 footprint, and that in turn is attached to a painted surface of a cabinet (no effort to achieve max temp transfer there). The top (hidden mounting screw) of my unit stabilizes at 140 F. It locks up just fine, but sometimes, after several hours, it will unlock and fail to re-lock. I was wondering if I need to drop the temperature. geo On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:13 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: After eight weeks of monitoring to 1 E-12, I still se no aging. Waiting for a change so I can do other tests. One thing I clearly se is a 4 Hz filter response changing the output by +- 3 E-11. It may be more, will have to find a way to check it more accurately, because of limited response time. I for one will fix that problem with a Morion MV 89 and a 100 Hz analog filter. New Morion's are available for less than $ 30 the ones I bought seem new. That's also where I got my 5680A Have no contact with the seller. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/17/2012 11:30:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, n4ua...@gmail.com writes: Bert, Since you have been running your unit for a long time, what temperature are you holding your 5680 to? I suppose more to the point, I attached my unit to a 1/2 think aluminum plate slightly larger than the 5680 footprint, and that in turn is attached to a painted surface of a cabinet (no effort to achieve max temp transfer there). The top (hidden mounting screw) of my unit stabilizes at 140 F. It locks up just fine, but sometimes, after several hours, it will unlock and fail to re-lock. I was wondering if I need to drop the temperature. geo On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:13 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: After eight weeks of monitoring to 1 E-12, I still se no aging. Waiting for a change so I can do other tests. One thing I clearly se is a 4 Hz filter response changing the output by +- 3 E-11. It may be more, will have to find a way to check it more accurately, because of limited response time. I for one will fix that problem with a Morion MV 89 and a 100 Hz analog filter. New Morion's are available for less than $ 30 the ones I bought seem new. That's also where I got my 5680A Have no contact with the seller. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
OK, I remember the fan controller discussion; don't know why I didn't find it just now when I was searching this topic. Thank you very much, Bert. geo On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:38 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/17/2012 11:30:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, n4ua...@gmail.com writes: Bert, Since you have been running your unit for a long time, what temperature are you holding your 5680 to? I suppose more to the point, I attached my unit to a 1/2 think aluminum plate slightly larger than the 5680 footprint, and that in turn is attached to a painted surface of a cabinet (no effort to achieve max temp transfer there). The top (hidden mounting screw) of my unit stabilizes at 140 F. It locks up just fine, but sometimes, after several hours, it will unlock and fail to re-lock. I was wondering if I need to drop the temperature. geo On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:13 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: After eight weeks of monitoring to 1 E-12, I still se no aging. Waiting for a change so I can do other tests. One thing I clearly se is a 4 Hz filter response changing the output by +- 3 E-11. It may be more, will have to find a way to check it more accurately, because of limited response time. I for one will fix that problem with a Morion MV 89 and a 100 Hz analog filter. New Morion's are available for less than $ 30 the ones I bought seem new. That's also where I got my 5680A Have no contact with the seller. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
There is already to much clutter on the list if you want more info contact me off list. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/17/2012 11:42:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, n4ua...@gmail.com writes: OK, I remember the fan controller discussion; don't know why I didn't find it just now when I was searching this topic. Thank you very much, Bert. geo On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:38 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/17/2012 11:30:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, n4ua...@gmail.com writes: Bert, Since you have been running your unit for a long time, what temperature are you holding your 5680 to? I suppose more to the point, I attached my unit to a 1/2 think aluminum plate slightly larger than the 5680 footprint, and that in turn is attached to a painted surface of a cabinet (no effort to achieve max temp transfer there). The top (hidden mounting screw) of my unit stabilizes at 140 F. It locks up just fine, but sometimes, after several hours, it will unlock and fail to re-lock. I was wondering if I need to drop the temperature. geo On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:13 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: After eight weeks of monitoring to 1 E-12, I still se no aging. Waiting for a change so I can do other tests. One thing I clearly se is a 4 Hz filter response changing the output by +- 3 E-11. It may be more, will have to find a way to check it more accurately, because of limited response time. I for one will fix that problem with a Morion MV 89 and a 100 Hz analog filter. New Morion's are available for less than $ 30 the ones I bought seem new. That's also where I got my 5680A Have no contact with the seller. Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
I don't have any compilers on the windows box. In any event, the idea was to bypass WOW. It was never an address space issue. Hence the native request. -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:17:51 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:09 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Has anyone come across a NTP client that uses native 64 Win 7 code? I've noticed all the 64 bit versions are running under WOW. I've use Meinberg now found another source out of Poland. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. 0.1C is very good for just using a fan. What is the fe5680 mounted to? just the heat sink or is there a thick metal plate. Also what are you using as a heat sensor. Is the sensor press fit to the heat sink or.I do remember reading about your temperature controlled fan but not the 0.1C part. I'd have guessed yo could only do about 2.0C with a setup like yours. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
I am, as I reported previously using a SMD LM335 away from the fan and held down with a screw and a small bracket and I get consistent .1 C. I do not think that I would get 1 E-12 over weeks when my lab has seen more than 5 C temperature changes if my temperature readings are not correct. Do not forget this was a quick and dirty setup, the final product will look more professional. Bert Kehren In a message dated 1/17/2012 12:19:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, albertson.ch...@gmail.com writes: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. 0.1C is very good for just using a fan. What is the fe5680 mounted to? just the heat sink or is there a thick metal plate. Also what are you using as a heat sensor. Is the sensor press fit to the heat sink or.I do remember reading about your temperature controlled fan but not the 0.1C part. I'd have guessed yo could only do about 2.0C with a setup like yours. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. I don't either - for user mode code running on the x64 (aka amd64) architecture anyway. My experience is that 64bit cpu intensive code that doesn't need the wider address space is slower than the equivalent 32bit code. This is especially true if the code does a lot of memory management - and if you are using C++ and std and/or boost libraries, there is a lot of memory management going on behind the scenes. Plain C wouldn't be so bad. WOW on x64 has a thin shim layer to interface to OS calls, which may be significant if you make a lot of OS calls, but again, I've not noticed it when profiling my software. If the CPU is other than x64 architecture, then 32bit code is emulated and for sure, you want a 64bit native version. If a kernel device driver is involved, then of course, there is no choice but to use a 64bit version of the driver. Still no need for 64bit user mode code though. Personally, I run 64bit 2008 Server at work and 32bit Windows 7 at home. Other than having to develop 64bit versions and drivers, I wouldn't chose to run 64bit Windows unless I had an application that really needed the extra address space. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
The intel 64 bit CPUs used the AMD64 instruction set. Note there are more instructions in the 64bit architecture, so some programs are more efficient under a 64 bit OS. -Original Message- From: Orin Eman orin.e...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 09:45:26 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.comwrote: Can't you build the reference version 64 bit?Have you tried. That said, I don't see why you'd need a 64-bit version. NTP is never going to use so much RAM that you need the wider address space. I don't either - for user mode code running on the x64 (aka amd64) architecture anyway. My experience is that 64bit cpu intensive code that doesn't need the wider address space is slower than the equivalent 32bit code. This is especially true if the code does a lot of memory management - and if you are using C++ and std and/or boost libraries, there is a lot of memory management going on behind the scenes. Plain C wouldn't be so bad. WOW on x64 has a thin shim layer to interface to OS calls, which may be significant if you make a lot of OS calls, but again, I've not noticed it when profiling my software. If the CPU is other than x64 architecture, then 32bit code is emulated and for sure, you want a 64bit native version. If a kernel device driver is involved, then of course, there is no choice but to use a 64bit version of the driver. Still no need for 64bit user mode code though. Personally, I run 64bit 2008 Server at work and 32bit Windows 7 at home. Other than having to develop 64bit versions and drivers, I wouldn't chose to run 64bit Windows unless I had an application that really needed the extra address space. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
Note there are more instructions in the 64bit architecture, so some programs are more efficient under a 64 bit OS. That can be true. But NTP uses so little resources that that is very little to be gained. But if you do care about this the best and simplest solution (maybe the only solution) is to build from the source code. Anyone who distributes a ready-made executable is going to have to assume LCD, or lowest common denominator and build a binary that works on all CPU types. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
to Chris What I've seen is that holding 0.1 C AT the SENSOR is pretty easy, (Lady Heather will hold the TBolt's sensor to 0.01 deg using just a fan), AND if you blow a lot of air around, then keeping the air gradients inside a closed 'oven box' below 0.1 deg is also NO problem. to Bert Have you measure what the Temperature coeff is over normal room changes with and without the addition of the temp controller? What is the best configuration to keep the fe5680 freq constant? For the LPRO, what I found by experiment worked best for me is to place the unit upside down so the heat sink was on top. If any air was blown on the non heat sink side, that would greatly effect the frequency stability in a bad way. A way to get around the compromise of where the best place is to put the sensor, either close to the heat source or close to the device. Best answer is BOTH. The way to get high end control and a much more stable control loop, is to use TWO temperature sensors. Put one temperature sensor near the Heat source and a second one at the place you want to hold constant. Then in effect 'AC couple' the heat source sensor, so that it does the course temperature control. One way to do this is to set it up so that the heat source sensor is the feed-forward or D input for the main sensor PID control loop. Another way to set it up is so that the device sensor's error slowly changes the temperature set-point of the heat source's temperature control loop. ws *** I am, as I reported previously using a SMD LM335 away from the fan and held down with a screw and a small bracket and I get consistent .1 C. I do not think that I would get 1 E-12 over weeks when my lab has seen more than 5C temperature changes if my temperature readings are not correct. Do not forget this was a quick and dirty setup, the final product will look more professional. Bert Kehren * albertson.chris at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM, EWKehren at aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. 0.1C is very good for just using a fan. What is the fe5680 mounted to? just the heat sink or is there a thick metal plate. Also what are you using as a heat sensor. Is the sensor press fit to the heat sink or.I do remember reading about your temperature controlled fan but not the 0.1C part. I'd have guessed you could only do about 2.0C with a setup like yours. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NTP for 64 bit windows
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote: The intel 64 bit CPUs used the AMD64 instruction set. There are still some Itaniums around (which are not AMD64) which is why I made an exclusion for non-x64 architecture. Note there are more instructions in the 64bit architecture, so some programs are more efficient under a 64 bit OS. True. You just have to compile for both and profile them to see which is better for a given application. Orin. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] 5370A on ebay
if anyone is looking for a 5370, there is one on ebay that is currently listed for $29+shipping... http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Counter-/160714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf No financial interest, but that's a lot less than I paid for mine! ;) Probably worth it for the ocxo! Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on ebay
I gotta remember the time-nuts list when I put stuff on ebay. One mention here and the price goes up and up and up and up to a point where I can't afford it anymore. -Bob On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: if anyone is looking for a 5370, there is one on ebay that is currently listed for $29+shipping... http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Counter-/160714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf No financial interest, but that's a lot less than I paid for mine! ;) Probably worth it for the ocxo! Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on ebay
Oh great. Now everybody knows. :) On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:43:24 -0500, Bob Bownes bow...@gmail.com wrote: if anyone is looking for a 5370, there is one on ebay that is currently listed for $29+shipping... http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Counter-/160714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf No financial interest, but that's a lot less than I paid for mine! ;) Probably worth it for the ocxo! Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update (temperature stabilization)
Hi Since they used a magnetic outer case I'd keep it in place. Rb's are sensitive to magnetic field. Anything that attenuates external fields is helping you out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 4:02 PM To: beale; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update (temperature stabilization) Well done. You have answered a couple of questions for me. The heat sink inside is small so its easy to see why all sides of the case should be close in temperature. Like you in tinkering, I attached 4 reasonable size heat sinks with the case off and noticed I could drop the internal heat sink to 115 degrees. Granted everything cooks inside but it seems a bad way to run things. Though the xtal does need the stability. I think I may follow your lead and attach an external sink to dump extra heat from the regulators. No fan just open air. I hate fans. ;-) Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM, beale be...@bealecorner.com wrote: I tried a simple bang-bang controller (LM35 temp sensor+comparator+pass transistor to drive a small fan) with the LM35 taped to the center of a large finned heatsink. The FE-5680A+heatsink are sitting upside down, so heatsink fins point up. LM35 leads wired with 34 gauge wire, which is taped along heatsink surface. The fan cycle time was about 20 seconds, and the peak variation measured at the LM35 was about 0.2 degrees. Now, of course what I am controlling is the top surface of the heatsink. What's the temperature variation inside? Well, another temperature sensor, a thermistor full bridge attached to the center top surface of the 5680A (which is underneath, in my setup) indicates that surface varies only 4 millidegrees C in the short term (one fan cycle) due to the thermal mass of the assembly. However, long term it drifts much more along with ambient, because I do not have good insulation around the body of the 5680A. I plan to put it in a well-insulated box with just the heatsink exposed, so nearly all the heat transfer happens at the heatsink fin surface, which I am controlling. I am guessing I can manage 0.01 C stability inside the box that way. -John Beale ---Original Message--- From: WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update Sent: 17 Jan '12 11:52 to Chris What I've seen is that holding 0.1 C AT the SENSOR is pretty easy, (Lady Heather will hold the TBolt's sensor to 0.01 deg using just a fan), AND if you blow a lot of air around, then keeping the air gradients inside a closed 'oven box' below 0.1 deg is also NO problem. to Bert Have you measure what the Temperature coeff is over normal room changes with and without the addition of the temp controller? What is the best configuration to keep the fe5680 freq constant? For the LPRO, what I found by experiment worked best for me is to place the unit upside down so the heat sink was on top. If any air was blown on the non heat sink side, that would greatly effect the frequency stability in a bad way. A way to get around the compromise of where the best place is to put the sensor, either close to the heat source or close to the device. Best answer is BOTH. The way to get high end control and a much more stable control loop, is to use TWO temperature sensors. Put one temperature sensor near the Heat source and a second one at the place you want to hold constant. Then in effect 'AC couple' the heat source sensor, so that it does the course temperature control. One way to do this is to set it up so that the heat source sensor is the feed-forward or D input for the main sensor PID control loop. Another way to set it up is so that the device sensor's error slowly changes the temperature set-point of the heat source's temperature control loop. ws *** I am, as I reported previously using a SMD LM335 away from the fan and held down with a screw and a small bracket and I get consistent .1 C. I do not think that I would get 1 E-12 over weeks when my lab has seen more than 5C temperature changes if my temperature readings are not correct. Do not forget this was a quick and dirty setup, the final product will look more professional. Bert Kehren * albertson.chris at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM, EWKehren at aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. 0.1C is very good for just using a fan. What is the fe5680 mounted to? just the heat sink or is there a thick metal plate. Also what are you using as a heat sensor. Is the
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update
Warren if you look close I did put a thermal barrier on the bottom and have a large heat sink on the top with by my standards a large fan. All this because I wanted it up and running with in an hour. I realize the sides also radiate but putting a sensor at center on the bottom I am within 0.1 C. I did this for testing quick and dirty and frankly never expected the performance I se. So at some point I will package it in such a way that I will have optimum temperature control. Right now I have a four channel Wavetek 52A data logger but plan to build an 8 channel logging device based on a 16F688 PIC. From that data I will be able to pick the best placement of the sensor. Keep in mind this work is intended for a limited temperature range, this is not a commercial environment where one solution has to fit all. That is why I work today every thing with cooling. Breaking that fancy Dewar has turned into a blessing. Bert Kehren. In a message dated 1/17/2012 2:52:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com writes: to Chris What I've seen is that holding 0.1 C AT the SENSOR is pretty easy, (Lady Heather will hold the TBolt's sensor to 0.01 deg using just a fan), AND if you blow a lot of air around, then keeping the air gradients inside a closed 'oven box' below 0.1 deg is also NO problem. to Bert Have you measure what the Temperature coeff is over normal room changes with and without the addition of the temp controller? What is the best configuration to keep the fe5680 freq constant? For the LPRO, what I found by experiment worked best for me is to place the unit upside down so the heat sink was on top. If any air was blown on the non heat sink side, that would greatly effect the frequency stability in a bad way. A way to get around the compromise of where the best place is to put the sensor, either close to the heat source or close to the device. Best answer is BOTH. The way to get high end control and a much more stable control loop, is to use TWO temperature sensors. Put one temperature sensor near the Heat source and a second one at the place you want to hold constant. Then in effect 'AC couple' the heat source sensor, so that it does the course temperature control. One way to do this is to set it up so that the heat source sensor is the feed-forward or D input for the main sensor PID control loop. Another way to set it up is so that the device sensor's error slowly changes the temperature set-point of the heat source's temperature control loop. ws *** I am, as I reported previously using a SMD LM335 away from the fan and held down with a screw and a small bracket and I get consistent .1 C. I do not think that I would get 1 E-12 over weeks when my lab has seen more than 5C temperature changes if my temperature readings are not correct. Do not forget this was a quick and dirty setup, the final product will look more professional. Bert Kehren * albertson.chris at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM, EWKehren at aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C. 0.1C is very good for just using a fan. What is the fe5680 mounted to? just the heat sink or is there a thick metal plate. Also what are you using as a heat sensor. Is the sensor press fit to the heat sink or.I do remember reading about your temperature controlled fan but not the 0.1C part.I'd have guessed you could only do about 2.0C with a setup like yours. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
No need to buy a tool. They drill out really easy but you can also simply punch them out. There are no nuts on the back. The screws bite directly into the fiberglass PCB. Mine were T-16 but many people report they are hex not torx. Maybe it depends on what kind of screw they had around the day it was built. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Paul F. Sehorne p...@sehorne.org wrote: I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Most likely they are 1/16 hex. On 01/17/12, Chris Albertsonalbertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: No need to buy a tool. They drill out really easy but you can also simply punch them out. There are no nuts on the back. The screws bite directly into the fiberglass PCB. Mine were T-16 but many people report they are hex not torx. Maybe it depends on what kind of screw they had around the day it was built. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Paul F. Sehorne [1]p...@sehorne.org wrote: I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [4]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:p...@sehorne.org 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on ebay
Yup, I just took it off my watch list... On 01/17/12, Daviddavidwh...@gmail.com wrote: Oh great. Now everybody knows. :) On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:43:24 -0500, Bob Bownes [1]bow...@gmail.com wrote: if anyone is looking for a 5370, there is one on ebay that is currently listed for $29+shipping... [2]http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Co unter-/160714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf No financial interest, but that's a lot less than I paid for mine! ;) Probably worth it for the ocxo! Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [3]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [5]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:bow...@gmail.com 2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Counter-/160714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf 3. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on eBay
Just curious, pls What would be a reasonable price to pay for one of these counters? Thanks, ...-Don -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Gottlieb Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 5:21 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on ebay Yup, I just took it off my watch list... On 01/17/12, Daviddavidwh...@gmail.com wrote: Oh great. Now everybody knows. :) On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:43:24 -0500, Bob Bownes [1]bow...@gmail.com wrote: if anyone is looking for a 5370, there is one on ebay that is currently listed for $29+shipping... [2]http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Co unter-/160714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf No financial interest, but that's a lot less than I paid for mine! ;) Probably worth it for the ocxo! Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [3]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [5]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:bow...@gmail.com 2. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-5370A-Universal-Time-Interval-Counter-/16 0714650831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item256b56f4cf 3. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 5. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Nope. Looked at them with a jeweler's loupe. They are Torx. On 1/17/2012 5:13 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote: Most likely they are 1/16 hex. On 01/17/12, Chris Albertsonalbertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: No need to buy a tool. They drill out really easy but you can also simply punch them out. There are no nuts on the back. The screws bite directly into the fiberglass PCB. Mine were T-16 but many people report they are hex not torx. Maybe it depends on what kind of screw they had around the day it was built. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Paul F. Sehorne[1]p...@sehorne.org wrote: I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [4]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:p...@sehorne.org 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] River monitor update
Hi all; I had the opportunity to drive by the Elkharrt River monitor in Goshen IN and observed this upon getting out of my car, the diamond plate equipment shelter, the crossed yagis, and solar panel. There was a GPS antenna but it was not a timing antenna in the sense of how we nutters typically think of timing antennas. On the back side of the yagi mast was u-clamped a piece of angle iron with what appeared to be a magnetic vehicle roof top GPS antenna of a few years back. It had a cable tie with electrical tape around it, the whole thing looked like an after thought. I would imagine then that at least time-stamping is occuring or maybe queueing. I would think that the close proximity of the antennas and the third harmonic of the up-link frequency would fall close to the GPS band. Next chance I get I'll check the monitor in Elkhart to see if it set the same. Regards; Rich ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on eBay
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Don Lewis dlewis6...@austin.rr.com wrote: Just curious, pls What would be a reasonable price to pay for one of these counters? It seems to depend hugely on the risk you are willing to take. This most resent counter is listed as not functioning as intended, returns not accepted but does show a mostly working display. It might be just fine and work OK. Others are listed as being recently calibrated and come with 30 day warranty I think $250 to $500 for a It may work, but no returns accepted counter and a lot more for one with a warranty. Other counters are cheaper. the HP5328 is very affordable ($50 if you can wait for a deal) but of course is not nearly as nice of a machine. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on eBay
I think it depends on how long your willing to wait and a bit of luck. I took the risk and got two 5370B from and E seller. One as not working 'flashed numbers' when turned on for an offer of $175 and one that was dead for $100. I think shipping was around $30 each. At that price was willing to take the risk.I was lucky the dead one was set for 220V and the other worked after reseating the boards and removing the spider cocoons. Before getting them I set an upper limit of $350 including shipping for a known good one. -pete On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Don Lewis dlewis6...@austin.rr.com wrote: Just curious, pls What would be a reasonable price to pay for one of these counters? It seems to depend hugely on the risk you are willing to take. This most resent counter is listed as not functioning as intended, returns not accepted but does show a mostly working display. It might be just fine and work OK. Others are listed as being recently calibrated and come with 30 day warranty I think $250 to $500 for a It may work, but no returns accepted counter and a lot more for one with a warranty. Other counters are cheaper. the HP5328 is very affordable ($50 if you can wait for a deal) but of course is not nearly as nice of a machine. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
I have a tool with a number of Allen wrenches. The smallest of the lot fits the screws that hold the oscillator to the board. I found it easiest to insert the tool from the other side of the board rather than unscrewing the usual way. This way I was able to insert the Allen wrench well into the screw yet avoid interference with the oscillator box. On 01/17/2012 03:24 PM, Paul F. Sehorne wrote: Nope. Looked at them with a jeweler's loupe. They are Torx. On 1/17/2012 5:13 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote: Most likely they are 1/16 hex. On 01/17/12, Chris Albertsonalbertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: No need to buy a tool. They drill out really easy but you can also simply punch them out. There are no nuts on the back. The screws bite directly into the fiberglass PCB. Mine were T-16 but many people report they are hex not torx. Maybe it depends on what kind of screw they had around the day it was built. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Paul F. Sehorne[1]p...@sehorne.org wrote: I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [4]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:p...@sehorne.org 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
I used a T7 bit for mine. -Brian, WA1ZMS On Jan 17, 2012, at 6:24 PM, Paul F. Sehorne p...@sehorne.org wrote: Nope. Looked at them with a jeweler's loupe. They are Torx. On 1/17/2012 5:13 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote: Most likely they are 1/16 hex. On 01/17/12, Chris Albertsonalbertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: No need to buy a tool. They drill out really easy but you can also simply punch them out. There are no nuts on the back. The screws bite directly into the fiberglass PCB. Mine were T-16 but many people report they are hex not torx. Maybe it depends on what kind of screw they had around the day it was built. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Paul F. Sehorne[1]p...@sehorne.org wrote: I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [4]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:p...@sehorne.org 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on eBay
I bought two several years ago, one was advertised as working and the other as broken. Turns out both had the same problem: the socket syndrome, common on these instruments. I paid $100 for each. They would work intermittently. I have not seen one near that price recently. I have since replaced all the sockets with gold plated, machined pin sockets and the problems are mostly gone. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:40:12 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on eBay On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Don Lewis dlewis6...@austin.rr.com wrote: Just curious, pls What would be a reasonable price to pay for one of these counters? It seems to depend hugely on the risk you are willing to take. This most resent counter is listed as not functioning as intended, returns not accepted but does show a mostly working display. It might be just fine and work OK. Others are listed as being recently calibrated and come with 30 day warranty I think $250 to $500 for a It may work, but no returns accepted counter and a lot more for one with a warranty. Other counters are cheaper. the HP5328 is very affordable ($50 if you can wait for a deal) but of course is not nearly as nice of a machine. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update (temperature stabilization)
Electronic Goldmine has nickel-iron magnetic shielding sheet, 6x9 x.005 for 6 bucks p/n G18646 peel and stick at that. Don Bob Camp Hi Since they used a magnetic outer case I'd keep it in place. Rb's are sensitive to magnetic field. Anything that attenuates external fields is helping you out. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 4:02 PM To: beale; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update (temperature stabilization) Well done. You have answered a couple of questions for me. The heat sink inside is small so its easy to see why all sides of the case should be close in temperature. Like you in tinkering, I attached 4 reasonable size heat sinks with the case off and noticed I could drop the internal heat sink to 115 degrees. Granted everything cooks inside but it seems a bad way to run things. Though the xtal does need the stability. I think I may follow your lead and attach an external sink to dump extra heat from the regulators. No fan just open air. I hate fans. ;-) Regards Paul WB8TSL On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM, beale be...@bealecorner.com wrote: I tried a simple bang-bang controller (LM35 temp sensor+comparator+pass transistor to drive a small fan) with the LM35 taped to the center of a large finned heatsink. The FE-5680A+heatsink are sitting upside down, so heatsink fins point up. LM35 leads wired with 34 gauge wire, which is taped along heatsink surface. The fan cycle time was about 20 seconds, and the peak variation measured at the LM35 was about 0.2 degrees. Now, of course what I am controlling is the top surface of the heatsink. What's the temperature variation inside? Well, another temperature sensor, a thermistor full bridge attached to the center top surface of the 5680A (which is underneath, in my setup) indicates that surface varies only 4 millidegrees C in the short term (one fan cycle) due to the thermal mass of the assembly. However, long term it drifts much more along with ambient, because I do not have good insulation around the body of the 5680A. I plan to put it in a well-insulated box with just the heatsink exposed, so nearly all the heat transfer happens at the heatsink fin surface, which I am controlling. I am guessing I can manage 0.01 C stability inside the box that way. -John Beale ---Original Message--- From: WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5680A update Sent: 17 Jan '12 11:52 to Chris What I've seen is that holding 0.1 C AT the SENSOR is pretty easy, (Lady Heather will hold the TBolt's sensor to 0.01 deg using just a fan), AND if you blow a lot of air around, then keeping the air gradients inside a closed 'oven box' below 0.1 deg is also NO problem. to Bert Have you measure what the Temperature coeff is over normal room changes with and without the addition of the temp controller? What is the best configuration to keep the fe5680 freq constant? For the LPRO, what I found by experiment worked best for me is to place the unit upside down so the heat sink was on top. If any air was blown on the non heat sink side, that would greatly effect the frequency stability in a bad way. A way to get around the compromise of where the best place is to put the sensor, either close to the heat source or close to the device. Best answer is BOTH. The way to get high end control and a much more stable control loop, is to use TWO temperature sensors. Put one temperature sensor near the Heat source and a second one at the place you want to hold constant. Then in effect 'AC couple' the heat source sensor, so that it does the course temperature control. One way to do this is to set it up so that the heat source sensor is the feed-forward or D input for the main sensor PID control loop. Another way to set it up is so that the device sensor's error slowly changes the temperature set-point of the heat source's temperature control loop. ws *** I am, as I reported previously using a SMD LM335 away from the fan and held down with a screw and a small bracket and I get consistent .1 C. I do not think that I would get 1 E-12 over weeks when my lab has seen more than 5C temperature changes if my temperature readings are not correct. Do not forget this was a quick and dirty setup, the final product will look more professional. Bert Kehren * albertson.chris at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM, EWKehren at aol.com wrote: I am using a fan that holds it within .1 C Its been month since I measured it but I did report it here and I think it is 42.7C.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Great! Thanks. My T-8 was just a bit too big. On 1/17/2012 6:31 PM, Brian, WA1ZMS wrote: I used a T7 bit for mine. -Brian, WA1ZMS ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
I'll give that a try. In the meantime, I'll try to come up with an Torx of the correct size. Brian said T-7 fit his. On 1/17/2012 6:07 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote: I have a tool with a number of Allen wrenches. The smallest of the lot fits the screws that hold the oscillator to the board. I found it easiest to insert the tool from the other side of the board rather than unscrewing the usual way. This way I was able to insert the Allen wrench well into the screw yet avoid interference with the oscillator box. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Home Depot sells a little HUSKY brand screwdriver tool that has replaceable bits. It has all the tiny torx sizes. The correct tool has a black end cap, and costs about $6 -Chuck Harris Paul F. Sehorne wrote: I'll give that a try. In the meantime, I'll try to come up with an Torx of the correct size. Brian said T-7 fit his. On 1/17/2012 6:07 PM, Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R wrote: I have a tool with a number of Allen wrenches. The smallest of the lot fits the screws that hold the oscillator to the board. I found it easiest to insert the tool from the other side of the board rather than unscrewing the usual way. This way I was able to insert the Allen wrench well into the screw yet avoid interference with the oscillator box. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Mine opened with a 1/16th inch Allen wrench. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Paul F. Sehorne Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 4:43 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx?? I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] FE-5680A adjustment screw?
Hi all, Anyone know what the little adjustment hole is on the side of the FE-5680A? Is this a frequency adjustment? I tried adjusting it but nothing happened. Was the adjustment range too small to see a change on a counter? Also, I just got another Z3805A. Although I had success adjusting the oscillator (EFC error) on the my first one, it developed a output stability problem soon thereafter.The oscillator needs a couple of good raps to get it to oscillate. The new one will get me on line until I fix the first one. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
That I've got. Will give it a try. Thanks On 1/17/2012 9:04 PM, J. L. Trantham wrote: Mine opened with a 1/16th inch Allen wrench. Joe ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] filtering a 10Mhz frequency standard?
Luciano I just placed an order for some parts with an electronics distributor in the US called digikey. I happened to notice they carried the orange 10.7 Mhz IF transformers 42IF222-RC so I ordered 10 of them up to build up your filter. Should have everything late next week. Time to warm up the soldering iron and sniff some flux. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:02 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Boy thats nice and simple. Shame I juts placed a order for parts could have added a few 10.7 xformers to the order. On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Timeok tim...@timeok.it wrote: see also: http://www.timeok.it/files/10_mhz_bandpass_filter.pdf -- Luciano P. S. Paramithiotti IZ5JHJ - Original Message From: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] filtering a 10Mhz frequency standard? Date: Dec 13, 2011 10:29 PM If you are going to buffer the output, why does the filter have to be passive? Did I miss something here? Today 10MHz is in the realm of active filters. [Hey, not that I made an active filter at 10MHz.] Sensitivity is a function of the denominator. The only advantage to a LPF over a BPF is the BPF has to be centered at 10MHz, while you could bump the corner of the LPF to a higher frequency so there is less sensitivity at 10MHz This presumes you are only getting rid of harmonics and not spurs. For lowest component sensitivity, leap frog designs are best. But in continuous time designs, they require many op amps per pole. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Sent to you using Uebimiau Webmail version 3.11 Developed by Dave and Todd at http://www.manvel.net and http://www.tdah.us ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Sears/Craftsman sells a 12-pc. Micro-Tech Precision Screwdriver Set that has come in handy for numerous projects and includes T6 through T9 Torx drivers. Also, you could probably look on theBay for some sort of 'Cell Phone' or iPod tool set that likely would include the smaller Torx drivers. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Paul F. Sehorne Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 5:25 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx?? Nope. Looked at them with a jeweler's loupe. They are Torx. On 1/17/2012 5:13 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote: Most likely they are 1/16 hex. On 01/17/12, Chris Albertsonalbertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote: No need to buy a tool. They drill out really easy but you can also simply punch them out. There are no nuts on the back. The screws bite directly into the fiberglass PCB. Mine were T-16 but many people report they are hex not torx. Maybe it depends on what kind of screw they had around the day it was built. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Paul F. Sehorne[1]p...@sehorne.org wrote: I received my two FE-5680s today. The first thing I want to do is inspect the insides. The smallest Torx I have is a too-big T-8. What size is needed? I'll need to do an internet search for the correct size. Thanks, Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- [4]time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:p...@sehorne.org 2. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts@febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A what is the size of the Torx??
Okay. Thanks, Chuck On 1/17/2012 8:35 PM, Chuck Harris wrote: Home Depot sells a little HUSKY brand screwdriver tool that has replaceable bits. It has all the tiny torx sizes. The correct tool has a black end cap, and costs about $6 -Chuck Harris ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
